New Mexico in Focus; 547; Sam Donaldson and AVID (American Graduate)

>> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS - THE STATE RIDES HERD ON THE MESS IN SUNLAND PARK. THE LINE HASHES OUT POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS. AND WE SIT DOWN WITH TV NEWS VETERAN SAM DONALDSON TO TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF JOURNALISM AND THE RISE OF INTERNET NEWS. >> A GOOD JOURNALIST TRIES TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND DOESN'T ALWAYS SUCCEED, AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO DESIRE. NEW MEXICO INFOCUS STARTS NOW! >> WE'RE TWO-AND-A-HALF WEEKS AWAY FROM NEW MEXICO'S PRIMARY ELECTIONS, AND THE COMBINATION OF REDISTRICTING AND RETIREMENTS MAKE THIS YEAR ONE TO WATCH. THIS WEEK, THE LINE BREAKS DOWN SOME OF THE STATE SENATE RACES THAT PROMISE TO BE MOST COMPETITIVE. THEY'LL ALSO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE RESURGENCE OF THE SAME SEX MARRIAGE DEBATE MEANS FOR THE NEXT NEW MEXICO STATE LEGISLATURE. NEWSMAN SAM DONALDSON IS IN WITH HIS VIEWS ON THE STATE OF JOURNALISM AFTER 50 YEARS IN THE BUSINESS. AND WE'LL LOOK AT AN APS PROGRAM THAT'S DELIVERING

COLLEGE STUDENTS AND PREVENTING DROPOUTS IN THE PROCESS. WE BEGIN WITH THE LINE AND THE STATE'S RECENT ENTRY INTO LOCAL POLITICS IN SUNLAND PARK. >> MY WORD, WHAT A MESS. SUNLAND PARK - AS WE SIT HERE TAPING - STILL DOES NOT IN FACT, TODAY GUYS, ON FRIDAY, THE MEETING WAS CANCELED TO GET A NEW MAYOR. AND NOW STATE AUDITOR HECTOR BALDERAS HAS ISSUED FINDINGS THAT CAUSED THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND ADMINISTRATION TO STEP IN AND REMOVE CITY OFFICIALS AS THE EFFORT BEGINS TO RESTORE SOME SORT OF ORDER. IT'S ISSUE ONE OF THIS WEEK. HERE TO HELP US SORT OUT THIS AND, SO MUCH MORE, FORMER NEW MEXICO HOUSE REPUBLICAN WHIP -- YOU JUST HEARD HIS VOICE, DAN FOLEY. REGULAR SOPHIE MARTIN, INCOMING EDITOR OF THE NEW MEXICO LAW REVIEW, AND SOON TO BE OUTGOING TRAVELER. OUR GUEST THIS WEEK, ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL REPORTER DAN BOYD IS BACK. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US, DANIEL. AND RETURNING TO DO SOME HEAVY LIFTING, OF COURSE, FORMER U.S. COMMERCE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL FOR GEORGE W. BUSH, JAMIE ESTRADA. SOPHIE, THE STATE IS NOW FOCUSING ON THE FINANCIAL ORDER OF THINGS.

WE'RE TALKING NEARLY ONE MILLION DOLLARS PAID OUT FROM A FUND, WE'VE HAD ALLEGATIONS OF PROSTITUTION BUYING WITH THAT MONEY SOUTH OF THE BORDER. I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON. BUT WE'VE ALSO GOT TWO MORE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN PRETTY SOLIDLY WHACKED. WHAT DID YOU PULL OUT OF THAT 82-PAGE REPORT FROM MR. BALDARES, WHICH HE THEN TELLS US IS NOT THE LAST OF THAT'S JUST THE INITIAL REPORT >> WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS -- YOU KNOW, WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING THE SUNLAND PARK ISSUE AROUND THIS TABLE, CERTAINLY IT'S BEEN IN THE PRESS FOR QUITE SOME TIME, AND I THINK THE MORE SALACIOUS BITS OF INFORMATION HAVE BEEN THE ONES THAT WE'VE TENDED TO FOCUS ON, BECAUSE THEY'RE KIND OF STUNNING. BUT BOTTOM LINE, THERE ARE DEEP FINANCIAL IRREGULARITIES. I MEAN, I THINK I'M UNDERSTATING WHEN I SAY pHAT. AND SO IT'S ONE THING TO SAY, WE'VE GOT STRIPPER ISSUES, AND PROSTITUTION ISSUES, AND ALL OF THAT KIND OF STUFF. WE HAVE HARD CORE ACCOUNTABILITY ISSUES. WE HAVE HARD CORE GOOD GOVERNMENT/BAD GOVERNMENT ISSUES. AND EVEN IF ALL OF THIS OTHER GARBAGE HADN'T GONE DOWN, THIS WAS A DEEPLY DYSFUNCTIONAL PLACE. I THINK WE'RE A LITTLE BIT

BEYOND THE POINT WHERE THE STATE HAS TO -- YEAH. >> AND WE DEBATED THAT LAST WEEK, JAMIE. YOU KNOW, THE WHEREWITHAL OF THE STATE STEPPING IN. I SEEM TO RECALL YOU MENTIONED THAT THEY CAN STEP IN TO DO SOME OF IT, BUT THE ENTIRE TAKEOVER MIGHT BE KIND OF PROBLEMATIC. WHERE IS YOUR SENSE OF IT NOW? IS IT BIG ENOUGH, IN YOUR MIND'S EYE, FOR A COMPLETE >> IT PROBABLY WILL BE AT SOME POINT, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SOLVE SOME OF THE POLITICAL PROBLEMS. AND YOU'RE RIGHT, THE FINANCIAL ISSUES ARE THE CRUX OF EVERYTHING, AND NOW WE'RE GETTING TO THE MEAT OF ALL THIS STUFF. HOW IS IT THAT THEY ACTUALLY CONDUCT PROCUREMENT? WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE -- WHAT PRACTICES HAVE THEY MAINTAINED THERE? BUT I THINK THE REASON WHY IT'S AT RISK FOR A FULL TAKEOVER IS BECAUSE THERE'S A LACK OF CIVIL SOCIETY IN SUNLAND PARK. WHERE ARE THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE? WHERE ARE THE BUSINESSMEN AND WOMEN, AND ALL THAT REALLY DRIVES WHAT A COMMUNITY OUGHT TO BE LIKE AND HOLDS THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE? AND THAT JUST HASN'T EXISTED. >> CAN I ASK YOU A CYNICAL QUESTION? >> I LIKE CYNICAL QUESTIONS.

>> I KNOW YOU DO, AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE HERE. I LOVE ASKING THEM. WE'RE THREE WEEKS BEFORE A PRIMARY. WE HAVE A PERSON WHO IS RUNNING THIS INVESTIGATION IN THIS PRIMARY. IS THERE A CONNECTION HERE, IN YOUR VIEW? WHITE HORSE CHARGING IN? DOES IT MEAN ANYTHING FOR HIS RACE? >> PROBABLY NOT. I DON'T KNOW THAT HE'S GOING TO GET ENOUGH MILEAGE OUT OF THIS. >> IT COULD HURT HIM. >> IT MAY. HE HASN'T RUN A RACE YET. YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW HE'S RUNNING ADS ATTACKING HEATHER WILSON, SO HE SOUNDS LIKE HE'S JUST GETTING IN LINE WITH MARTIN HEINRICH. >> I'VE GOT TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT, THAT IT COULD HURT HIM. WHAT DID YOU MEAN? >> WELL, IT'S A STRONGLY DEMOCRATIC AREA. I MEAN, IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S DOING THIS IN CHAVEZ COUNTY, WHICH IS GOING TO VOTE 80% REPUBLICAN. THIS IS A HEAVY DEMOCRAT TURNOUT COMMUNITY, AND YOU'RE DOWN THERE DOING THIS YOU'RE NOT PUTTING YOURSELF IN GOOD GRACES WITH THE VOTERS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO ASK TO VOTE FOR YOU. SO I DO THINK HE DESERVES SOME CREDIT. I MEAN, HE COULD HAVE SNUBBED THIS. BUT IT DOES BEG THE QUESTION: HAD WE NOT HAD THE STRIPPER DEAL, WHERE THE MAYOR GOT ANGRY -- THIS IS NOT STUFF THAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY. THIS STUFF HAS APPARENTLY

BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. YEARS. AND EVERYBODY HAS KIND OF TURNED A BLIND EYE TO THIS. AND SO NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT'S FRONT PAGE NEWS THAT IN 1990, OR WHENEVER IT WAS, THE FIRST -- YOU KNOW, DOMINGO MARTINEZ SENT OUT THE FIRST SCATHING AUDIT SAYING, HEY, WE'VE GOT ALL THESE THINGS GOING ON. SO FROM THE '90s TO 2012, WE'VE JUST KIND OF LET THIS GO ON. I MEAN, LITERALLY THE PEOPLE IN SUNLAND PARK SHOULD BE THANKING THE STRIPPER, BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T FOR HER, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE FOUND THIS GUY. >> GOOD FOR HER. >> I MEAN, SERIOUSLY. THINK ABOUT IT. HAD THAT NOT COME TO FRUITION -- THIS STUFF HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE MID '90s, AND NOBODY HAS DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IT TOOK THE MAYOR TRYING TO PAY SOMEBODY OFF WITH THE VIDEO OF THE STRIPPER TO OPEN UP THIS CAN OF WORMS, WHICH JUST SEEMS TO BE -- YOU KNOW, AS BRUCE KING USED TO SAY, THEY'RE OPENING PANDORA'S BOX. >> SURE. DAN BOYD, GOOD TO SEE YOU. THERE'S AN EERIE SIMILARITY TO THESE SITUATIONS WHEN YOU LOOK AT THEM. THERE'S ALWAYS A MUCH LARGER WEB OF INTRIGUE AND DECEIT. AND WE'VE GOT NEW NAMES BEING PULLED IN. JOHN ARTHUR SMITH IS LOOKING AT THINGS. HE'S A NEIGHBOR SAYING, OKKY, WAIT A MINUTE, WE MAY

HAVE TO LOOK AT SOME THINGS HERE. BUT I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE CITY ATTORNEY THAT THEY HIRED, IT TURNS OUT NOT IN A GREAT WAY, MEANING IT WAS NOT AN OPEN HIRING PROCESS. IN THREE YEARS, THIS MAN OUT OF SANTA FE HAS MADE ALMOST A HALF A MILLION DOLLARS DOING THE CITY'S BUSINESS. HOW COULD HE HAVE NOT BEEN AWARE, AS HE CITY ATTORNEY, WHAT'S GOING ON THERE? >> WHERE DID YOU SAY HE WAS FROM? >> I UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, AT ONE POINT THAT THEY HAD CONTRACTED WITH ANOTHER ATTORNEY TO BRING IN, AND THAT WAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE JOE CERVANTES. AND SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND ALL THE BACKGROUND HERE. MY COLLEAGUE, RENE ROMO, DOWN IN LAS CRUCES HAS COVERED THIS IN A LOT MORE DEPTH THAN I HAVE. BUT IT DOES SEEM LIKE THERE'S IS A LOT OF -- YOU KNOW, THE MORE YOU LOOK INTO THIS AND FIND OUT THINGS LIKE THIS, IT KIND OF LEADS IT NEW QUESTIONS. >> SPEAKING OF QUESTIONS, NOW THERE'S SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE COUNCIL, ITSELF, OR THE ENTIRE BODY OF GOVERNANCE DOWN THERE. IT SEEMS LIKE EVERYONE IS NOW UNDER SUSPICION FROM THIS.

AND THIS BEGS THE QUESTION I ASKED JAMIE EARLIER: DOES THIS, IN FACT, RISE TO A LEVEL WHERE YOU HAVE TO CLEAN HOUSE AND START THE WHOLE THING OVER AGAIN? >> YEAH, I THINK WE'RE STILL KIND OF SEEING THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG MAYBE A LITTLE BIT, AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE HOW THIS UNRAVELS. YOU KNOW, AS HE MENTIONED, THE MAYORAL SITUATION IS STILL UNSETTLED. WE'LL SEE WHERE THAT GOES, AND SEE WHAT DFA DECIDES TO DO. I GUESS THEY'VE APPOINTED SOMEONE ALREADY TO -- >> IT SEEMS TO ME THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME PEOPLE THAT WERE COOPERATING VERY WELL ITH THE STATE AUDITOR. HE MENTIONED -- I FORGET HIS NAME. THE DEPUTY CITY PERSON. I DON'T KNOW. BUT NONETHELESS, THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE THAT HE COULD RELY ON FOR ACTUALLY CONDUCTING A REASONABLE INVESTIGATION AND GETTING WHERE HE IS NOW. >> IT ALSO BEGS THE QUESTION, THOUGH, LOOK AT THIS WHOLE PROCESS. THE MEDIA DOWN THERE, THE OTHER ELECTED OFFICIALS DOWN THERE, THE CITIZENS DOWN THERE, EVERYBODY HAS BEEN ASLEEP SINCE THE MID '90s. >> I'M GOING TO STOP YOU RIGHT THERE. WHAT IF IT WAS THE SIMPLE FACT THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT HAD YOUR ENERGY BILL SORT OF MYSTERIOUSLY DISMISSED, WHICH LOOKS LIKE WAS A PART OF THE FINDINGS.

ALMOST A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF -- >> THEN HOW COME THE POWER COMPANY DIDN'T COME ALONG AND SAY, SOMETHING WEIRD IS GOING ON HERE. WE'RE GETTING HUGE CHECKS FROM SUNLAND PARK PAYING PEOPLE'S -- I MEAN, DON'T YOU THINK THEY HAVE A FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY? DON'T THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN LAS CRUCES? I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU GUYS, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS IN A TOWN OF THAT SIZE AND HAVE IT KEPT SECRET ACROSS THE WHOLE STATE. >> IT WASN'T A SECRET. >> THAT'S THE ISSUE. >> AND I'LL TELL YOU, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN. THAT PLACE IS MESSED UP. SO, WHY HASN'T ANYBODY DONE ANYTHING? >> WHY HASN'T ANYBODY? WE'VE HAD DISTRICT ATTORNEYS, WE'VE HAD LEGISLATORS, WE'VE HAD CONGRESSMEN. >> ALL THOSE WHITE KNIGHTS COMING IN NOW AT THE COUNTY LEVEL, AT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, SAYING WE'RE GOING TO FIX EVERYTHING. REALLY? >> IN AN ELECTION YEAR. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> BUT IT BEGS THE QUESTION: I MEAN, THIS STUFF -- YOU KNOW, WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. IF YOU GO BACK TO DOMINGO MARTINEZ, THIS IS IN THE MID '90s. AND I MEAN, IT'S KIND OF A PERFECT STORM.

YOU'VE GOT THE FORMER MAYOR WHO RESIGNED, WHO IS NOW RUNNING FOR THE STATE SENATE. SO THAT'S KIND OF PERCOLATING SOME NEWS DOWN THERE. HE'S RUNNING AGAINST JOSEPH CERVANTES, FIRED SOME SHOTS AT REPRESENTATIVE CERVANTES, WHO HAS NOW FIRED SOME SHOTS BACK. AND HE'S SAID, I'M READY TO BE A GREAT STEWARD OF PUBLIC MONEY, BUT YET DURING HIS TIME AS MAYOR, IT SEEMS LIKE IT WAS A COMPLETE DISASTER. AND YET, NOBODY'S DONE ANYTHING. WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE GOVERNORS, MULTIPLE ATTORNEYS GENERAL, PEOPLE IN CONGRESS, COUNTY COMMISSIONERS. >> IS IT JUST OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND? IS THAT THE ISSUE HERE? >> I DON'T KNOW. >> I THINK YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF LIKE WEIRD LITTLE BUBBLE, AND YOU SEE THIS IN COMPANIES THAT GO VERY BAD, AS WELL, WHERE AD BEHAVIOR IS REINFORCED BY OTHER BAD BEHAVIOR, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE SIDELINES WHO ARE MAYBE NOT PARTICIPATING ARE LOOKING AROUND TO SEE HOW OTHER PEOPLE REACT, AND THEY'RE NOT REACTING AS IF THE SKY IS FALLING. SO THAT REINFORCES THE IDEA THAT MAYBE THIS IS HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS. >> I THINK IT'S BIGGER THAN THAT. >> I'M GOING TO STOP YOU RIGHT HERE. I THINK SOPHIE MIGHT BE ONTO SOMETHING, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A SMALL TOWN ENVIRONMENT.

IT TAKES A LOT TO STEP OUT IN FRONT A BULLDOZER. >> I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT. I THINK IT'S BIGGER THAN THAT. >> IT COULD BE. IT COULD BE, BUT WE'RE GOING TO WRAP UP RIGHT THERE, AND THEN COME BACK TO DISCUSS WHAT TO WATCH IN SENATE PRIMARIES. >> IF A PRESS SECRETARY THAT CAME OUT ONE DAY AND SAID, YOU KNOW, THE BOSS BLEW IT THIS MORNING, I WOULD BE SO SHOCKED, AND OF COURSE THE MAN WOULD BE FIRED IMMEDIATELY. SO WE UNDERSTAND THAT. SO THE OFFICIAL LINE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE HOW GREAT THIS PERSON IS. AND MAYBE HE IS, I DON'T KNOW. BUT THE POINT IS, TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON, YOU HAVE TO RELY ON PEOPLE WHO WILL TELL YOU WITHOUT THEIR NAMES BEING ASSOCIATED WITH IT. >> TWO-AND-A-HALF WEEKS LEFT TO GO BEFORE THE JUNE 5TH PRIMARY, AND ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING STATE LEGISLATIVE CAMPAIGNS IN RECENT MEMORY. A HOST OF RETIREMENTS FROM THE STATE SENATE MEAN SEATS THAT HAVE BEEN LOCKED DOWN BY AN INCUMBENT FOR YEARS ARE NOW TRULY, TRULY, TRULY UP FOR GRABS. I'M NOT JUST SAYING THEY'RE UP FOR GRABS - THEY'RE REALLY UP FOR GRABS. LET'S START UP NORTH AND OUT EAST, DISTRICT 7, WHERE CLINT HARDEN HAS RETIRED, WE TALKED ABOUT THAT HERE.

REPUBLICANS PAT WOODS ANDD ANGIE SPEARS ARE SQUARING OFF. DAN BOYD, A LOT OF STUFF IN YOUR PAPER ABOUT THIS RACE, A LOT OF -- MR. HARDEN IS NOW BACK IN THE GAME TAAKING ABOUT SOME THINGS. THERE'S SOME OTHER -- IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S EVERYTHING ABOUT NOT THE CANDIDATES, BUT EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE CANDIDATES. >> I THINK THIS HAS TURNED INTO A GOOD KIND OF SOAP ANGIE SPEARS IS, I BELIEVE, THE NIECE OF PAT LYONS. SHE WAS -- YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR'S POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE HAS GIVEN HER MONEY, AND SHE SEEMS TO BE THE CHOSEN ONE. BUT THEN THIS MR. WOODS IS RUNNING A STRONG CAMPAIGN. THE THIRD CANDIDATE DROPPED OUT AND ENDORSED HIM, AND NOW CLINT HARDEN HAS ALSO ENDORSED HIM. SO IT SEEMS TO BE, I GUESS, SHOWING KIND OF A SCHISM A LIITLE BIT IN THE PARTY, AND KIND OF MAYBE NOT WANTING SANTA FE TO BUTT INTO A RACE THAT'S IN EASTERN NEW MEXICO. AND SO I THINK THAT WILL BE A REALLY FASCINATING ONE TO WATCH. >> YOU KNOW, DAN, IN THAT AREA -- DAN 2, OR MAYBE YOU'RE DAN 2 AND HE'S DAN 1. BUT THAT AREA IS A BIT SPARSE.

THE WHOLE THING IS LOSING POPULATION. WE HAD SOME RE-DISTRICTING MASHING TOGETHER. WHAT'S THE UPSHOT FOR YOU? ARE WE GOING TO COME OUT SETTLED FOR THE VOTER HERE, OR ARE WE COMING INTO SOMETHING WHERE THERE'S JUST GOING TO BE SO MUCH BAD BLOOD AND SO MUCH -- REMEMBER THE STUFF THAT HAPPENED BETWEEN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WALTER BRADLEY AND JOHN SANCHEZ, AND HOW THAT HURT JOHN SANCHEZ IN THE GENERAL ELECTION. NOW, DID ANYBODY THINK THAT JOHN SANCHEZ WAS GOINN TO BEAT BILL RICHARDSON AT THE TIME THAT EVERYBODY THOUGHT HE WAS THE WHITE KNIGHT? NO. BUT I DO THINK THAT THIS IS A FAIRLY CONSERVATIVE COMMUNITY, AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO RALLY BEHIND THE WINNER. I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT CLINT HARDEN, WHO'S GETTING OUT, IS TRYING TO GET BACK IN. IF HE FELT SO STRONGLY, HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN. HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN AND RUN. >> THERE WAS THAT SORT OF SET OF RUMORS THAT SUGGESTED THAT THE GOVERNOR WAS PART OF THE FORCE TO PUSH HIM OUT OF THAT POSITION, THAT THERE WAS SOME PRESSURE PLACED ON HIM. SO IF THE GOVERNOR IS THE ONE WHO PUSHED HIM OUT, IT'S NOT ENTIRELY SURPRISING TO SEE HIM BACK, THE GUY THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T LIKE.

>> HOW DO YOU GET PUSHED OUT OF A RACE? >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT. LET'S HOLD THAT THERE. DISTRICT 8, WE'RE GOING TO MOVE TO THAT. DEMOCRATS THOMAS GARCIA AND INCUMBENT PETE CAMPOS. LET ME START WITH JAMIE ON THIS ONE. GARCIA HAS A LOT OF MONEY IN THE BANK. DOES THAT TRANSLATE TO VOTES? IS THAT A WIN AUTOMATICALLY WITH THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY? WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT >> WELL, YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, GARCIA AND COMPOS BOTH VERY LONG-TERM, LONG-TIME VOTING PEOPLE. CAMPOS CERTAINLY HAS A LOT OF GOOD WILL THAT'S BEEN BUILT UP IN HIS NECK OF THE WOODS, NORTH CENTRAL NEW MEXICO. YOU CAN'T COUNT SOMEBODY LIKE THAT OUT, EVEN WITH THE MONEY ADVANTAGE FOR ONE PERSON OR THE OTHER. SO, WE'LL SEE. >> WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT ONE, DANIEL? >> I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING. I THINK THOMAS GARCIA, AFTER THE RE-DISTRICTING, HAD THE OPTION OF RUNNING AGAINST NICK SALAZAR IN THE HOUSE, OR RUNNING AGAINST PETE COMPOS, AND HE CHOOSE TO RUN AGAINST PETE CAMPOS. AND I THINK HE THINKS THAT DISTRICT IS MORE SIMILAR TO HIS OLD HOUSE DISTRICT. AND HE MAY HAVE MORE MONEY, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IN THAT RACE IT WILL TRANSLATE OR NOT. >> ISN'T THAT ALWAYS THE TRICK WITH THE RE-DISTRICTING, THIS IS SORT OF LIKE THE OLD DISTRICT, BUT THEN SORT OF LIKE THE

NEW DISTRICT? YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN? IT'S HARD TO MASH ALL THAT TOGETHER. >> YEAH, ESPECIALLY IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO. >> THEY HAVE SIMILAR POSITIONS AND SIMILAR VOTING RECORDS. >> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENCE IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO, THOUGH, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T KNOCK THOSE DOORS. IT'S HARD TO GET -- IT'S NOT LIKE THE EAST SIDE, OR THE NORTHEAST HEIGHTS, WHERE I'M GOING TO GO KNOCK 300 DOORS TONIGHT. IT IS A MAIL, IT IS A TV, A LOCAL TV, LOCAL RADIO, GETTING OUT IN FRONT OF THE BOOSTER CLUBS, WHO'S BEEN WRITING THOSE CHECKS TO THE BOOSTER CLUBS. THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. >> EXCELLENT POINT RIGHT THERE. SENATE 9, BEN RODEFER - HE'S BEEN AT THIS TABLE -- A FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE. HE HAS GONE AFTER INCUMBENT JOHN SAPIEN. SOPHIE, IS SAPIEN PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE, OR IS BEN RODEFER JUST -- HE WAS AN INTERESTING WEAPON, AND IT'S THE SAME THEORY. WE'VE GOT THIS RE-DISTRICTING THING GOING ON. DOES THAT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSLATE? I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING WHEN YOU HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE GOING UP AGAINST A SENATOR, IN THIS CASE, WHERE BOTH HAVE NAME RECOGNITION. BOTH HAVE CONSTITUENTS IN THE MARKET, AND ALL OF THAT KIND OF STUFF. AND DOES ONE ---YOU KNOW,

DOES SAPIEN KEEP THE INCUMBENT ADVANTAGE WHEN SOMEBODY WHO IS SO WELL KNOWN IS COMING UP AGAINST HIM? >> RIGHT ON THAT QUESTION, JAMIE, IS THAT WHERE YOUR THOUGHT IS, AS WELL, THAT THAT'S THE DIFFICULTY? >> I THINK SO, YEAH. >> HUGE MISSTEP BY JOHN SAPIEN THE OTHER NIGHT. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW IT IN THE PAPER. HE SHOWS UP TO A RIO RANCHO SCHOOL BOARD MEETING AND KIND OF WANTS TO DEFEND SOME SECURITY GUARD WORKERS. THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT PRIVATIZING SOME STUFF. HE GIVES A BIG SPEECH, AND GETS SLAPPED DOWN IN THE PAPER BY THE SCHOOL BOARD, SAYING YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR FACTS. AND THAT'S A WHOLE FAIRLY NEW AREA. SO IF I WAS GOING TO GIVE A WINK AND A NOD ON THIS DEAL, I THINK RODEFER IS GOING TO SQUEEZE IT OUT. THE PROGRESSIVES ARE PRETTY STRONG BEHIND BEN RODEFER. >> AND ON THAT NOTE, ON THE PROGRESSIVES UP IN THAT AREA, WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHT THERE? >> I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE TRUE SWING DISTRICTS IN THE LEGISLATURE. SO WHOEVER WINS THAT IS GOING TO HAVE TO RUN AGAINST DAVE DOYLE, WHO IS ANOTHER INCUMBENT. SO THAT'S ONE THAT I THINK IS JUST MAYBE THE WARM-UP FOR NOVEMBER. >> IF YOU TAKE ON STEVE AUSTIN, YOU TAKE ON THE WHOLE -- >> THAT'S RIGHT. LET'S GO TO SENATE 13. JAMIE, I'LL START WITH YOU. A THREE-WAY RACE FOR DEDE FELDMAN'S OLD SEAT, OF COURSE. BILL O'NEILL THINKS HE HAS A BETTER SHOT HERE THAN IN HIS

CURRENT HOUSE DISTRICT. DOES THE CHARACTER OF THE DISTRICT -- SAME QUESTION I HAD BEFORE; THE CHARACTER OF THE DISTRICT. THIS ALWAYS FASCINATES ME. DOES THIS WORK WELL IN HIS FAVOR IN 13, AS WELL? >> I THINK SO, TOO. IT'S THE NORTH VALLEY, THIS IS A PROGRESSIVE AREA, AND, YOU KNOW, DON'T COUNT HIM OUT. >> IS IT ABOUT MESSAGING IN AREAS THAT ARE PRETTY SOLIDLY EASY TO READ? IS IT ABOUT NUANCE, ALL THIS KIND OF THING? >> PRIMARIES ARE ALWAYS ABOUT MESSAGING. >> IT'S THE BASE IN A PRIMARY, AND ESPECIALLY IN ONE THAT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE LOWER TURNOUT. IT'S REALLY GOING TO BE MORE FOCUSED ON THE PROGRESSIVE AREA, ESPECIALLY IN THIS AREA. >> I THINK, TOO, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE VOTES IN THAT DISTRICT ARE LOOKING TO OTHER TRUSTED ELECTED OFFICIALS TO SEE, WHO ARE YOU BACKING, AN AWFUL LOT OF THEM ARE BACKING O'NEILL. SO THAT SENDS A MESSAGE TO THE VOTERS THERE. MAYBE I CAN'T DO THE FULL RESEARCH, BUT I SEE X, Y, AND Z, THEY LIKE HIM. >> DOES A THREE-WAY DEAL IMPACT THIS ONE PARTICULARLY? >> I THINK IT COULD. I DON'T KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT THE THIRD CANDIDATE, CARLOS CORDOVA, BUT THERE'S ALWAYS A DYNAMIC THERE WHERE IT

COULD SPLIT OR DILUTE THE VOTE. THIS IS ONE WHERE WHOEVER WINS THIS PRIMARY COULD HAVE THIS SEAT FOR THE NEXT FOUR TERMS, SIXTEEN YEARS. >> AND THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE KNOW. THEY ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT. I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU, DAN, ON THIS ONE. SENATE SEAT 14, HERE'S ANOTHER ONE. NOW THIS IS ERIC GRIEGO'S OLD SEAT. A LOT OF HISTORY AROUND THIS SEAT, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. >> NO TEA PARTY REPUBLICANS HERE. >> NO, NO. THERE'LL BE AN UNNAMED FORMER SENATE PRO TEM WHO USED TO HAVE THAT SEAT. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER FAIRLY INTERESTING PROGRESSIVE SEAT, AS A MATTER OF FACT. ELEANOR CHAVEZ CAME IN WITH GRIEGO DURING THAT WHOLE WAVE. FORMER SENATOR JAMES TAYLOR, BACK IN. MICHAEL PADILLA. LET'S GET SOME CLARITY ON THIS ONE. >> I THINK JAMES TAYLOR IS GOING TO WIN THIS RACE. >> DO YOU? >> YES. HE'S BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN HIS DISTRICT. HE HAS WORKED WITH ALL KINDS OF ORGANIZATIONS. I THINK ELEANOR CHAVEZ HAS SOME PROBLEMS. THIS WHOLE SIGNATURE ON THE PETITION DEAL, I THINK IT'S GOING TO COME BACK TO GET HER. SHE STARTED OFF SAYING, I ONLY HAVE TRUSTED WORKERS, AND NOW SHE'S SAYING, WELL, I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHO THAT

WAS THAT DID THIS. I THINK JAMES TAYLOR GETS THE NOD ON THAT ONE. >> DO WE KNOW HOW MANY SIGNATURES ARE INVOLVED HERE? MY UNDERSTANDING IS, IT'S LESS THAN A DOZEN. >> I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NUMBERS. I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT ISSUE HAS REALLY BEEN RESOLVED, BUT I THINK THE FACT THAT IT SURFACED SOMETIMES IS AS IMPORTANT AS HOW IT ULTIMATELY PLAYS OUT. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF DAN'S POSITION OF FORMER REP. TAYLOR COMING IN? >> I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING. THAT'S ANOTHER THREE-WAY RACE, TOO. MICHAEL PADILLA, I THINK, IS THE THIRD CANDIDATE. >> IT'S A HUGE PORTION OF HIS WHOLE -- FROM WHAT I'VE READ, IT'S ABOUT 95% COMBINED OF HIS SENATE AND HOUSE SEAT IN THAT DISTRICT NOW. HE HAS THAT NAME RECOGNITION. >> INTERESTING. JAMIE, SAME THOUGHTS? DO YOU AGREE? >> I DO. I THINK TAYLOR HAS A GOOD CHANCE AT THIS, ESPECIALLY WITH ALL OF ELEANOR'S PROBLEMS. >> CAN ELEANOR HOLD SERVE HERE? SHE'S NOT AN UNKNOWN ENTITY. >> I DON'T THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. YOU KNOW, THIS IS POLITICS. WE'LL SEE. >> IF THE PROGRESSIVES COME OUT. SHE CLEARLY IS THE FAVORITE OF PROGRESSIVES. >> THERE IS THAT POSSIBILITY. >> INTERESTING.

SENATE 21, DAN BOYD AND REPUBLICANS ARE LINING UP TO TAKE ON DEMOCRAT LISA CURTIS. CURTIS WAS APPOINTED TO FILL THE VACANCY LEFT BY KENT CRAVENS, WHO WALKED OUT OF THE CAPITOL ACROSS THE STREET TO NEW MEXICO OIL AND GAS. AS WE ALL KNOW. MARK MOORES, ROB DOUGHTY, NANCY COOPER. WHERE'S THE FIGHT HERE? THIS ONE IS INTERESTING. JOHN ARTHUR SMITH. YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF INTERESTING STUFF GOING ON HERE. >> THIS ONE, I THINK THAT THEY ALL AGREE THAT THEY DON'T THINK LISA CURTIS SHOULD BE THE SENATOR. THAT'S THE ONE THING THEY AGREE ON. IIDID TALK TO SOME OF THOSE CANDIDATES EARLIER THIS WEEK. KENT CRAVENS DID ENDORSE MARK MOORES IN THE RACE, WHICH WAS INTERESTING, AND THEN ROB DOUGHTY HAS COME OUT AND SAID THAT HE THINKS EX-LEGISLATORS SHOULD HAVE TO WAIT TWO YEARS BEFORE BECOMING LOBBYISTS. SO IT'S GOTTEN A LITTLE BIT HEATED IN THIS RACE. >> THERE'S A GROUNDSWELL THING GOING ON IN THE NORTHEAST HEIGHTS. I'VE HEARD THAT MARK MOORES IS WORKING EVERY DOOR. ROB DOUGHTY IS WORKING IT PRETTY MUCH AS HARD. SO THEY'RE GETTING LIKE TWO OR THREE VISITS. >> DO YOU HAVE A CONNECTION? DO YOU KNOW MR. DOUGHTY ON A PERSONAL LEVEL? >> I DO. I KNOW BOTH VERY WELL. >> OKAY.

>> I THINK DOUGHTY IS GOING TO WIN IT. I THINK DOUGHTY IS GOING TO WIN IT BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE MESSAGE OF, DO YOU WANT A LOBBYIST, DO YOU WANT SOMEONE WHO IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE DENTAL ASSOCIATION -- I THINK THERE'S SOME UNCLEAR LINES HERE THAT ROB IS MAKING A GOOD POINT OF. AND I THINK HE'S GOT A PRETTY GOOD REPUTATION. HE'S GETTING A LOT OF MEDIA RIGHT NOW ON THE GAMING COMMISSION WITH THE HORSE RACING STUFF. AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO PLAY A ROLE. >> A LOT OF IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN TO THE IDEA OF BUSINESSMAN VS. LAWYER, THAT KIND OF STUFF. >> INTERESTING. ANOTHER INTERESTING ONE, JOHN ARTHUR SMITH AND SENATE DISTRICT 35. I GOT A LITTLE CARRIED AWAY. SMITH IS A CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRAT -- A CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRAT, RIGHT, RIGHT. >> HANDS OFF. >> DON'T MESS WITH HIM. BUT, BUT LARRY MARTINEZ, HE'S THE OPPONENT, JAMIE. IS THIS JUST LIKE PRO FORMA? LIKE, LET'S JUST GET THIS OVER WITH, HE'S IN? OR IS THIS A REAL RACE? >> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE FINANCE REPORTS, LARRY MARTINEZ SEEMS TO HAVE A LOT MORE IN TERMS OF SMALL DOLLARS. YOU HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THAT KIND OF THING, BECAUSE THAT SENDS A MESSAGE ABOUT THE INTENSITY OF IT ALL. AND THERE'S RULES, SO

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THIS THING WITH KIND OF THE SAME TACTIC OF DIRECT MAIL, AND RADIO, AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE AN INTERESTING VIBE THERE WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT. >> I THINK WE'VE JUST GOT A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME, SO I'M GOING TO LET JAMIE'S OPINION HOLD ON THAT ONE. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU GUYS ABOUT THE CD-1 DEBATES. THE FIRST ONE IS COMING UP TOMORROW NIGHT, SATURDAY NIGHT. KOAT IS GOING TO HAVE THAT ONE, SOPHIE. INTERESTING HOW THE DYNAMICS PLAY OUT. ERIC GRIEGO HAS A MASSIVE MONEY LEAD. >> WAR CHEST. >> WAR CHEST, OVER MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM AND FORMER MAYOR CHAVEZ. WHAT DO YOU ANTICIPATE IN THIS FIRST DEBATE? >> WELL, I THINK THAT ERIC GRIEGO AND MAYOR CHAVEZ ARE PRETTY WELL-KNOWN IN THE DISTRICT, AND THERE HAS BEEN SOME INTERESTING ENDORSEMENTS THIS WEEK. MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM HAS GOTTEN ENDORSEMENTS FROM BOTH THE JOURNAL AND THE WEEKLY ALIBI. I THINK THAT'S AN UNUSUAL COMBINATION. I'D HAVE TO GO BACK AND CHECK TO SEE HOW UNUSUAL. BUT IN A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE ERIC GREIGO, WHO IS KNOWN TO BE VERY PROGRESSIVE, AND IT WOULD SEEM LIKE THE ALIBI'S CHOICE, TO HAVE MICHELLE COME IN THERE, I WONDER IF PEOPLE WON'T BE LOOKING AT

THIS DEBATE AND THINKING, WHO IS THIS MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM PERSON? >> THAT'S A GOOD POINT. I'M GLAD YOU SAID THAT. I THINK THAT'S A REAL THING THAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING. AND JAMIE, IF YOU WERE THE CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR MR. CHAVEZ, WHAT'S YOUR ADVICE AGAINST MR. GRIEGO? >> WELL, CHAVEZ HAS GOT TO COME WITH SOMETHING. WE'RE, AGAIN, MOVING TOWARDS THE BASE, WHO IS GOING TO SHOW UP FOR THE ELECTION. AND SO CLEARLY HE'S GOT TO SHOW THAT HE'S WITH THEM ON THESE ISSUES, AND NOT MORE LIKE THE KIND OF MODERATE GUY THAT HE HAS A RECORD OF BEING. >> SURE. DAN, SAME THING. DOES MR. CHAVEZ NEED TO DO SOME BOXING? >> I THINK IT'S BEEN A TOUGH CAMPAIGN FOR MARTY WITH ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE COME UP ABOUT HIS FORMER GIRLFRIEND, I GUESS, OR FEMALE FRIEND. I THINK HE'S GOING TO COME OUT AGGRESSIVE AND SEE IF HE CAN THROW ERIC GREIGO OFF, OR GET HIM A LITTLE RUFFLED. >> BUT DIDN'T HE DO THAT DURING HIS LAST MAYORAL TRY? >> HE DID. >> I THINK WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT WE GO FROM -- I MEAN, FOUR-AND-A-HALF YEARS AGO, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT IN AN ERIC GREIGO/MARTY CHAVEZ MATCH UP, CHAVEZ

WOULD BE THE ONE WHO IS THE UNDERDOG? >> IF I WAS MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER, I WOULD SAY SHE NEEDS TO SIT BACK AND LET THEM EAT EACH OTHER ALIVE, AND JUST MAKE SURE SHE SAYS HER NAME 15 TIMES DURING THE DEBATE. >> THERE YOU GO. WE'LL GET TO THE HOUSE PRIMARIES NEXT WEEK. IN A MOMENT, LONGTIME NEWSMAN SAM DONALDSON ON THE STATE OF JOURNALISM. >> IT MAKES ME A LITTLE CRAZY TO SEE MARRIAGE AS AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION, WHERE IT SEEMS TO ME WHAT WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT IS RECOGNITION OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS, AND MARRIAGE BEING ONE OF THOSE RIGHTS. >> IN NEARLY HALF A CENTURY IN WASHINGTON, SAM DONALDSON COVERED EVERYTHING FROM THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, TO WATERGATE, TO RUSSIAN PEACE TALKS, AND THE CLINTON WHITE HOUSE. IT'S CREDENTIALS LIKE THAT WHICH BROUGHT HIM TO UNM AS COMMENCEMENT SPEAKER THIS YEAR. AND WE TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK WITH DONALDSON ABOUT THE UPCOMING ELECTION AND THE STATE OF JOURNALISM. HERE'S NMIF PRODUCER MATT GRUBS WITH THE START OF OUR

TWO-PART CONVERSATION WITH SAM DONALDSON. >> SAM DONALDSON CAME TO WASHINGTON D.C. IN 1961. WITHIN A FEW YEARS, YOU WERE AT THE NETWORK, AT ABC. >> RIGHT. >> THEN IT WASN'T WHAT WE SEE NOW WHEN WE TURN ON ABC. IT WAS THE THIRD PLACE >> OH, YEAH. >> WHAT WAS WASHINGTON JOURNALISM LIKE? >> WELL, A LOT OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM, AND LONGER STORIES, LIKE WHEN IT'S IN THE NEWSPAPER. AND WHEN I SAY MORE SERIOUS MY NOSE AT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW WHO JA-LO'S LATEST BOYFRIEND IS, OR IF THAT THREE-HEADED COW REALLY EXISTS, LET ALL FLOWERS BLOOM. BUT WE WERE IN A COLD WAR, AND SOON PEOPLE WERE BEING KILLED, LIKE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS WAS VERY SERIOUS. AND VIETNAM CAME ALONG. SO PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY WANTED TO KNOW THINGS THAT WERE GOING TO EFFECT THEIR LIVES PRETTY DEFINITELY, RATHER THAN JUST ENTERTAINMENT. SO WE DELIVERED THAT,

BECAUSE WE ARE, I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU, IN A CAPITALISTIC SOCIETY. WE HAVE STOCKHOLDERS. EVERYBODY DOES. WE HAVE BOTTOM LINES. WE HAVE TO PAY THE LIGHTS. AND IF WE DON'T HAVE THE CUSTOMERS FOR THAT, WE HAVE TO FIND THEM SOMEWHERE. BUT IN THE '60S AND INTO THE '70S, WE HAD THE CUSTOMERS FOR THE KIND OF NEWS SUBJECTS THAT WE WERE DELIVERING. SO IT WORKED. >> WE TALK ABOUT THE BIG THREE NETWORKS AT THAT TIME. WERE YOU ABLE TO SORT OF PICK WHAT YOU WANTED TO REPORT ON A LITTLE MORE FREELY? >> WELL, WHAT WE HAD WAS THE ABILITY AT THE NETWORKS TO NOT HAVE TO MAKE MONEY IN THE NEWS DEPARTMENT. THE NETWORKS WERE ALL YOU COULD WATCH. THERE WERE NO CABLE NETWORKS, ALTHOUGH THEY WERE BEING FORMED IN THE BACKGROUND. THERE WERE NO VCR'S. YOU COULDN'T WATCH A HOME MOVIE. NO INTERNET, OBVIOUSLY, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. YOU HAD TO WATCH ONE OF US. SO THE NETWORKS, EVEN THE THIRD RATED ABC NETWORK, WAS MAKING LOTS OF MONEY IN PRIME TIME AND SOAP OPERAS. SO THE FOUNDERS OF THE

NETWORKS, A LOT OF THEM WERE STILL ALIVE IN THOSE DAYS, SAID TO THE NEWS DEPARTMENT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE MONEY, YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE US PROUD SO THAT WE CAN SAY, LOOK AT WHAT EDWARD R. MURROW DID. "THE HARVEST OF SHAME." HE EXPOSED THE PLIGHT OF MIGRATORY FARM WORKERS IN THIS COUNTRY. NOT MANY PEOPLE WATCHED, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO WATCHED WERE INFLUENTIAL AND HELPED CHANGE THAT, BECAUSE THEY MY FRIEND HOWARD K. SMITH, "WHO SPEAKS FOR BIRMINGHAM." IS IT THESE BLACK PEOPLE IN THE STREETS WHO ARE U.S. CITIZENS, OR IS IT BULL CONNOR, THE POLICE COMMISSIONER WITH HIS DOGS AND WATER CANNONS SETTING ON THEM? IT WAS A HOUR THAT SHOCKED THE COUNTRY. WE DIDN'T HAVE TO MAKE MONEY, SO WE DIDN'T HAVE TO LOOK FOR SPONSORS, AND WE DID IT. BUT BY THE '70S, IN THE '70S THE SHARE THAT THE THREE NETWORKS HAD OF THE AUDIENCE WAS DROPPING PRECIPITOUSLY. AND SO NOW WE HAD TO MAKE MONEY, AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT? EVERYONE THAT'S GOING TO WATCH THE NEWS THAT WE

THOUGHT WE WANTED TO PRESENT WERE WATCHING. WE COULDN'T CHARGE MORE FOR ADVERTISING, WE WERE LOSING AUDIENCE. SO WHAT WE SAID WAS, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE? OH, WELL, I THINK WE CAN DECLARE THAT NEWS. AND WE AGGREGATED. AS MY FRIEND THE LATE DON HEWITT WHO FORMED 60 MINUTES ON CBS SAID, IT WAS A RACE TO THE BOTTOM TO GET A LARGER AUDIENCE THAT REALLY DIDN'T CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT THE KIND OF NEWS WE WERE DELIVERING. WE HAD TO DELIVER THE KIND OF NEWS THAT THEY WANTED TO WATCH. >> AS YOU LOOK AT THE YEARS THROUGH VIETNAM, A TRANSFORMATIVE TIME FOR THIS COUNTRY, THE WAY THAT WAR WAS COVERED IS VERY MUCH DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE SEE NOW. YOU WERE THERE. >> YES. >> WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM DID YOU HAVE? >> WELL, TWO THINGS. FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I WOULD CALL UP FROM SAIGON ON THE SHORTWAVE RADIO STATION, USING SHORTWAVE, TO NEW YORK TO DO MY REPORTS ON THE RADIO, I WAS USING THE SAME TECHNIQUES THAT EDWARD R. MURROW USED DURING THE BLITZ IN LONDON. THE TECHNOLOGY HAD NOT MOVED FORWARD MUCH. WE WERE SHOOTING FILM UP COUNTRY, IT HAD TO BE TRANSPORTED TO THE AIR BASE,

TAN SON NHAT, IN SAIGON, AND THEN FLOWN OUT TO HONG KONG. IT HAD TO BE PROCESSED, YOU KNOW, PUT ON THE SATELLITE. THREE DAYS LATER, YOU WOULD SEE THE STORY. TODAY, OF COURSE, YOU SEE IT IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE I HAVE A LITTLE CAMERA HERE, AND I'M WATCHING IT, AND YOU'RE WATCHING IT BACK HOME. SO THAT'S ONE THING THAT'S DIFFERENT. SECOND THING, OF COURSE, WAS THE WAR, ITSELF. EVERYONE WAS FOR IT TO BEGIN WITH, AND AS IT PROGRESSED, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE -- I SAW A MILLION PEOPLE IN THE STREETS, BY PARK POLICE ESTIMATE, ONCE IN WASHINGTON PROTESTING THE WAR, THROWING PIG'S BLOOD AT THE POLICE AND THOSE OF US COVERING IT. THE COVERAGE OF THE WAR STARTED TO REFLECT THAT. IT WAS A BAD TIME FOR THE COUNTRY. AND ALTHOUGH I'M NOT OLIVER STONE, THE MOVIE MAKER, I THINK MANY OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE TODAY CAN TRACE THEIR ORIGINS TO THE VIETNAM WAR. IT WAS THE FIRST TIME, AFTER WORLD WAR II, THAT WE SAID TO OURSELVES, THEY'RE NOT DOING WHAT WE WANT. WE'RE THE BIG DOG. WE CAN TELL THE WORLD WHAT

TO DO. NO, WE CAN'T, AND WE'RE LEARNING MORE AND MORE THAT, NO, WE CAN'T. >> HOW DID WATERGATE, WHICH FOLLOWED SHORTLY THEREAFTER, OR ACTUALLY, IN THE MIDST OF THE VIETNAM WAR, HOW DID THAT CHANGE JOURNALISM? >> WELL, IT DID. AND YOU ASKED ABOUT JOURNALISM IN VIETNAM, TOO. I THINK BEFORE WATERGATE, THE THOUGHT THAT PRESIDENTS WOULD LIE -- WE UNDERSTAND PEOPLE LIE. THEY'RE HUMAN BEINGS. BUT IT WAS NOT THE THOUGHT THAT YOU HAD THE UPPER LOBES. YOU WEREN'T SAYING, WELL, THE PRESIDENT'S GOING TO LIE TO US TODAY. >> CAPITAL L KIND OF LIE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. AFTER WATERGATE, I THINK A LOT OF JOURNALISTS SAID TWO THINGS. FIRST OF ALL, WE DON'T WANT TO BE SOCIAL FRIENDS WITH THE PEOPLE WE COVER, BECAUSE WHEN I FIRST CAME TO WASHINGTON, PEOPLE WOULD VIE, PARTICULARLY THE COLUMNISTS, TO INVITE THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO THEIR HOUSE IN GEORGETOWN TO INSTRUCT THEM ON THE FOREIGN POLICIES OF THE UNITED STATES, AND ALL OF THAT. WE COULD HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE WITH MEMBERS OF THE SENATE OR THE HOUSE, BUT WE CAN'T COVER THEM IF WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO BE THE SOCIAL FRIENDS OF THEM. EVER SINCE, MY GENERATION OF

JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN SKEPTICAL OF PUBLIC FIGURES. WE DON'T ASSUME THEY'RE LYING WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR MOUTH, BUT WE'RE GOING TO CHECK IT. AS RONALD REAGAN ONCE SAID, TRUST EVERYONE, BUT CUT THE CARDS. >> WELL, RONALD REAGAN, THAT WAS YOUR POST DURING -- >> I COVERED JIMMY CARTER. I WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN JOHN KENNEDY WAS THERE, BUT NEVER HAD THE COURAGE TO ASK HIM A QQESTION. I BEGAN WITH LONDON JOHNSON GOING DOWN TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND PARTICIPATING. BUT I WAS THE WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT IN NAME FOR THE CARTER AND REAGAN ADMINISTRATIONS, AND THEN FOR MOST OF THE SECOND TERM OF BILL CLINTON'S ADMINISTRATION. >> WHITE HOUSE REPORTING BACK THEN, DID IT RELY AS MUCH AS IT SEEMS TO NOW ON LEAKS, ON SOURCES? >> OH, YEAH, YEAH. BECAUSE, I MEAN, EVERYBODY AT THE WHITE HOUSE IS THERE TO PROJECT THE IMAGE OF THE PRESIDENT, WHOEVER THAT PERSON MAY BE, AS THE MOST SERIOUS, HONEST, SMART, CONSCIENTIOUS, CARING PRESIDENT THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER HAD. THAT'S THEIR JOB. I MEAN, IF A PRESS SECRETARY

CAME OUT ONE DAY AND SAID, YOU KNOW, THE BOSS BLEW IT THIS MORNING, I WOULD BE SO SHOCKED, AND, OF COURSE, THE MAN WOULD BE FIRED IMMEDIATELY. WE UNDERSTAND THAT. SO THE OFFICIAL LINE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE HOW GREAT THIS PERSON IS. AND MAYBE HE IS, I DON'T KNOW. BUT THE POINT IS, TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON, YOU HAVE TO RELY ON PEOPLE WHO WILL TELL YOU WITHOUT THEIR NAMES BEING ASSOCIATED WITH IT. SEE, I'M AN IMPORTANT MEMBER OF THE ECONOMIC COUNCIL, AND LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE NUMBERS HERE. BUT, OF COURSE, IF YOU USE MY NAME, I'M FIRED TOMORROW. SO, OKAY, I'LL MAKE THE DEAL. AND THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS. >> BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO GET BEAT BY THE OTHER GUYS. >> AND BECAUSE, LET ME TELL YOU, THE PUBLIC NEEDS THE INFORMATION. IT'S NOT THAT I'M FINDING OUT WHAT HE HAD FOR BREAKFAST, OR WHAT MOVIE THEY SAW THE OTHER NIGHT. IF SOMEONE IS GOING TO TELL ME SOMETHING, AND I THINK THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO KNOW, AND I THINK THEY ARE HONEST IN TELLING ME SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO KNOW, WHY WOULDN'T I PROTECT THEM AS THE PRICE FOR GETTING THE INFORMATION? OH, NO, ALWAYS TELL ME WHO

YOU'RE TALKING TO, AND THEN WE DON'T GET THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE FRAUD, OR THE ABUSE, OR THE MISTREATMENT THAT'S GOING ON. >> ARE JOURNALISTS COMFORTABLE WITH THE FACT THAT THEY KNOW -- BETTY CUNIBERTI FROM THE L.A. TIMES WROTE THIS GREAT ARTICLE BACK IN THE '80S ABOUT HOW LEAKS WORK, AND HOW THEY'RE ROLLED OUT, AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE A CONVEYOR BELT IN SOME SENSE. ARE JOURNALISTS COMFORTABLE WITH THAT? AND HOW DO YOU CHECK THAT? HOW DO YOU SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS JUST ISN'T LEGIT? >> YOU'RE COMFORTABLE IN THE SENSE THAT IF YOU BELIEVE THE PERSON HAS A KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY'RE TELLING YOU, IS IN A BELIEVE THAT THEY, FROM YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE WITH THEM, AND OTHERS -- HEY, WE TALK TO EACH OTHER, WE REPORTERS -- THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TELL YOU WHAT THEY KNOW, THEN YOU USE IT. NOW, THEIR MOTIVE FOR TELLING YOU MAY BE, I WANT TO GET THE OPPOSITION. I WANT TO GET A JUMP ON THIS. IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR MOTIVE MIGHT NOT JUST BE AS ALTRUISTIC AS I PAINTED IT; OH, THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW. ALTHOUGH MANY TIMES IT IS

GETTING TO THE TRUTH. BUT, AGAIN, IF THE INFORMATION IS ACCURATE, AND THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW IT, WHAT THEIR MOTIVE IS IS NOT THE CONTROLLING FACTOR IN MY MIND. >> WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON TODAY, AND NOW YOU'RE AT THE POINT WHERE YOU'RE SEMI-RETIRED -- >> THEY'RE STILL PAYING ME SOMETHING MORE THAN I'M WORTH, A LITTLE BIT, AS ABC NEWS. >> WHAT DO YOU LIKE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATE OF JOURNALISM RIGHT NOW? WHAT'S GOING THE RIGHT WAY? >> I LIKE ALL THE BRIGHT YOUNG PEOPLE IN THERE, INCLUDING BRIGHT WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS WHO ARE SITTING IN THE SEATS. THEY'RE SMART, A LOT OF THEM SMARTER THAN I AM. THEY KNOW HOW TO DO IT. THEY'RE FACING MORE AND MORE OBSTACLES, THOUGH. I DIDN'T HAVE THE OBSTACLES TO FACE, EVEN THOUGH ALL THE PRESIDENTS I COVERED TRIED TO ONLY GIVE ME THE GOOD NEWS AND NOT THE BAD NEWS. ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS I HAD WAS A MAN NAMED ROONE ARLEDGE, MY BOSS AT ABC NEWS. HE'D BACK ME WHEN THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD CALL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT ME -- I GOT A RAISE ONCE -- IF HE THOUGHT THAT I WAS SINCERELY TRYING TO DO IT RIGHT. I THINK A LOT OF THE REPORTERS TODAY DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF BACKING. SOME OF THEM DO. BUT I THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO DO A VERY GOOD JOB.

IT'S EASIER FOR ME TO POINT OUT THINGS THAT I DON'T LIKE BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE ARE PROBLEMS. I THINK OVERALL, THOUGH, WE TALK ABOUT THE MAINLINE OLD, OLD ORGANIZATIONS. WHAT ABOUT THE NEW KIDS? WELL, THE NEW KIDS ARE GREAT IF THEY KNOW THAT THEIR JOB IS TO PRESENT FACTUAL INFORMATION TO THE BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE, BELIEVING IT TO BE FACTUAL. IF THEY CHECK STORIES, IF THEY TRY TO KEEP THEIR PERSONAL BIASES OUT OF IT, ALL THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD DO. BUT SO MANY TIMES I WATCH AND LISTEN, AND I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE GIVING THEIR OPINION, YOU KNOW, A SEAN HANNITY OR WHOMEVER ON THE OTHER SIDE, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE WRITING IN THE NEWSPAPERS, OR ON TELEVISION, YOU WONDER WHETHER THEY REALLY CHECKED THAT, OR WHETHER THEY'RE JUST PASSING IT ON. YOU LOOK AT THE COLUMBIA JOURNALISM REVIEW, AND YOU FIND STORIES ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED WHERE A GOOD SO-CALLED LEGITIMATE ORGANIZATION WILL PASS ALONG A RUMOR BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN PRINTED SOMEPLACE ELSE, AND

THEREFORE, THEY FEEL THAT THEY CAN PASS IT ON EVEN THOUGH THEY, THEMSELVES, HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO CHECK IT. WELL, WE DIDN'T DO THAT. SORRY, BUT I'M GLAD. >> SURE, AND THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED WITH THE 24-HOUR NEWS CYCLE, AND WHAT TED TURNER BROUGHT HERE, THE INTERNET, EVERYTHING MOVES SO FAST. THE OLD ADAGE ABOUT A LIE GETTING AROUND THE WORLD -- >> HERE IS THE THING: THE INTERNET IS A TWO-EDGED SWORD. THE BRIGHT, SHINING EDGE IS TERRIFIC. JOURNALISM, COMMUNICATION, BUSINESS, POLITICS, CHANGING THE WORLD. NOT JUST THE ARAB SPRING AND ALL THAT. THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SWORD IS VERY DEADLY. A FIRESTORM WAS CREATED ABOUT SHIRLEY SHERROD, FIRED AS AN AGRICULTURAL WORKER IN SOUTH GEORGIA, BECAUSE ONE-HALF OF HER SPEECH TO THE NAACP, IN WHICH SHE SAID, I WONDERED WHEN I GOT THIS JOB WHETHER I SHOULD HELP WHITE FARMERS, BECAUSE THEY ENSLAVED MY GRANDPARENTS, AND THEN SHE SAID, BUT I FIGURED OUT QUICKLY THAT MY JOB WAS TO HELP OUT ALL OF THEM, AND THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD DO, AND WE SHOULD NOT PERPETUATE THE OLD HATREDS. HE TAKES THE FIRST HALF, HE PUTS IT ON, IT GOES THROUGH THE BLOGOSPHERE LIKE SUMMER LIGHTNING, AND SHE'S FIRED

BECAUSE THE AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT WAS AFRAID THAT NIGHT SEAN HANNITY WOULD GET HER ON FOX NEWS. THE NEXT MORNING, THEY SAW THE WHOLE SPEECH, THEY REALIZED WHAT THEY'D DONE, THEY BEGGED HER TO COME BACK. TOM VILSACK, THE SECRETARY, ASHES AND SACK CLOTH. AND TO HER CREDIT, SHE SAID, I DON'T THINK SO. THAT'S THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BLOGOSPHERE THAT'S DANGEROUS. >> A COLLEAGUE OF YOURS, I BELIEVE PETER JENNINGS, TALKED ABOUT THE LUXURY OF BEING ABLE TO CONSISTENTLY LEARN THROUGHOUT THAT JOB. THE LUXURY IS STILL CERTAINLY THERE, TO BE ABLE TO GO ALL THESE DIFFERENT PLACES AND LEARN ABOUT ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS, AND REALLY TO HAVE THAT INQUISITIVE MIND. DO YOU FEEL LIKE THAT MINDSET IS STILL THERE IN JOURNALISM? >> IT IS AMONG THE BEST PRACTITIONERS OF IT. BUT THERE'S A PROBLEM. ALL OF US ARE CREATURES OF OUR BACKGROUND AND OUR PREJUDICES THAT OUR PARENTS TAUGHT US, AND ALL OF THIS. AND I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT WE LEARN THAT WE TRY TO KEEP THEM OUT OF OUR WORK. TRY TO. DON'T ALWAYS SUCCEED. TRY TO.

AND THAT OUR WORK IS TO ADMIT NEW EVIDENCE, NEW IDEAS, NEW THINGS THAT WE REPORT ON. SO I THINK IT IS TRUE, A GOOD JOURNALIST TRIES TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND, DOESN'T ALWAYS SUCCEED, AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO DESIRE TO LEARN ANYTHING NEW, LEARN ANYONE ELSE'S ARGUMENT. THEY LISTEN TO THIS, OR THEY DO THAT, AND THAT'S ALL THEY WANT TO KNOW. AND THEY DEPRIVE THEMSELVES, IF, FOR NO OTHER THING, CHECKING THEIR OWN BELIEFS. ALL RIGHT, THE OTHER GUY SAID THIS IS WRONG, WHAT I BELIEVE. HERE'S HIS ARGUMENT, LET ME THINK ABOUT IT. NO, IT'S NOT, I'M RIGHT. OKAY. BUT THESE PEOPLE DON'T EVEN DO THAT. THE BEST JOURNALISTS DO THAT. HOW CAN WE BRING PEOPLE SOMETHING THAT WE THINK IS FACTUAL IF WE DON'T? >> SKEPTICAL NOT ONLY OF WHAT THEY'RE HEARING, BUT ALSO OF THEIR OWN PERCEPTION. >> IF THE TOP SCIENTISTS THAT THE NATIONAL ACADEMY PUTS TOGETHER ALL AGREE THAT WE CONTRIBUTE TO GLOBAL WARMING, WE HUMANS CONTRIBUTE TO GLOBAL ABOUT WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES

WILL BE IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF DEGREES IN A HUNDRED YEARS WILL OCCUR. SO, WE PRESENT THAT INFORMATION, AND SOMEBODY COMES ALONG AND SAYS, OH, THE EARTH IS FLAT. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? IT BOGGLES THE MIND. I THINK PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO ADMIT SCIENCE, WHICH NEED NOT WAR WITH RELIGION. IF GOD HAS CREATED US AND EVERYTHING -- STRANGE ARE THE WAYS OF THE LORD HIS MIRACLES PERFORMED. HE COULD DO IT THIS WAY. WHY SHOULD THE TWO BE ABSOLUTELY SEPARATE? I'M NOW GIVING YOU A PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY, I UNDERSTAND, WHICH YOU DIDN'T ASK FOR. BUT I SEE PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT NEW INFORMATION, LOOK AT NEW FACTS, LISTEN TO THE EXPERTS IN A PARTICULAR FIELD, WHO SIMPLY REFUSE BECAUSE THEIR MIND IS CLOSED. AND IT'S SAD. IT'S SAD FOR THEM, AND IT'S SAD FOR THE COUNTRY. >> SAM DONALDSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> WE WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AHEAD TO NEXT THURSDAY NIGHT AND OUR NEXT INSTALLMENT OF "CONNECT." WE'LL CHAT WITH A UNM

PROFESSOR WHO STUDIES WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF AN ASTEROID EXPLODED IN OUR ATMOSPHERE. AND THE PROGRAM HIGHLIGHTS TWO UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO ARCHAEOLOGISTS EXPLORING THE INCREDIBLE MYSTERY OF THE MAYA AND THE POSSIBLE PRESENCE OF CHOCOLATE AT CHACO CANYON. HERE'S A SNEAK PEEK. >> CHACO CANYON IS LOCATED IN NORTHWESTERN NEW MEXICO, AND WAS OCCUPIED FROM AT LEAST 10,000 YEARS AGO REALLY TO THE PRESENT DAY. DURING THAT TIME PERIOD, OUR RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT THE POPULATIONS LIVING IN CHACO, WHO ARE CALLED ANCESTRAL PUEBLOS, HAD CHOCOLATE BEVERAGES THAT THEY DRANK. INITIALLY, I WAS INTERESTED IN LOOKING AT CYLINDER JARS, WHICH ARE A KIND OF CERAMIC VESSEL. THEY'RE ABOUT 10 INCHES TALL AND ABOUT 4 INCHES WIDE, ON AVERAGE. DIFFERENT ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAD SPECULATED THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN CERAMIC HAND DRUMS, THAT YOU COULD PUT A SKIN OVER THE TOP ANDDMAKE SOME WATER INSIDE TO CHANGE THE PITCH AND BEAT ON THE

DRUM. OR THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN USED TO STORE VALUABLE OBJECTS. AND SO THERE WAS A QUESTION ABOUT HOW THEY WERE BEING USED, AND I WAS INTERESTED IN TRYING TO SOLVE THAT. >> STILL NO MIND OR THOUGHT TOWARD CHOCOLATE AT THIS POINT? >> NOT AT ALL. AND THEN ONE DAY I TALKED TO A MAYAN ARCHAEOLOGIST, WHO ALSO RESEARCHED CYLINDER JARS IN THE MAYAN AREA, AND SHE SAID THAT DOWN THERE THEY WERE USED FOR DRINKING CHOCOLATE. AND I ASKED IF SHE HAD DONE RESIDUE ANALYSIS, EXPECTING HER TO SAY, YES, THAT'S HOW THEY FOUND OUT. AND SHE SAID, NO, ACTUALLY THEY FOUND OUT BECAUSE IT SAYS IT ON THEM, THAT THE MAYA HAD WRITING, AND SO RIGHT ON THE VESSELS IT SAID, THIS IS -- >> FOR DRINKING CHOCOLATE. >> -- FOR DRINKING CHOCOLATE, EXACTLY. >> THAT'S "CONNECT" NEXT THURSDAY NIGHT AT 7:00 P.M. RIGHT HERE ON NEW MEXICO PBS. >> IT'S TIME NOW FOR A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION ABOUT

SAME SEX MARRIAGE. PRESIDENT OBAMA'S DECISION TO COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY MAY SIGNAL A CHANGE IN HOW THE ISSUE IS VIEWED, POSSIBLY. STILL, MORE THAN HALF THE STATES IN THE UNION HAVE SOME SORT OF PROHIBITION AGAINST SAME SEX MARRIAGE ON THE BOOKS. WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S AHEAD FOR NEW MEXICO. SOPHIE, LET ME ASK YOU THIS FIRST QUESTION. NEW MEXICO HASN'T PASSED A DEFENSE OR DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE ACT. SIMILARLY, THERE'S NO RECOGNITION OF DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS ON THE BOOKS. WHAT ARE OUR POLITICAL CHANCES, EVEN GIVEN THE POLLING THAT WE'VE GOT MEXICANS ARE SUPPORTING THIS IDEA, CASTING OUT TO 2013. WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> WE'RE GIVEN A BLANK SLATE IN THE SENSE THAT BOTH DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE AND DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIP BILLS HAVE COME UP. DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE I THINK WE TALK ABOUT MORE OFTEN BECAUSE THEY'RE, I DON'T KNOW, A LITTLE BIT MORE NEWSY, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT IN THE PAST, THOSE BILLS HAVE COME UP, AND THEY HAVE NOT GOTTEN VERY FAR. I THINK THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS WITH THIS

LEGISLATIVE ELECTION AND WHAT THE GROUPS THINK THEY CAN BRING FORWARD. NOW, A BILL WILL COME FORWARD EVERY CYCLE, NO MATTER WHAT. NO MATTER WHETHER THEY THINK THEY CAN GET IT THROUGH OR NOT. AND IT DIES EACH TIME. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE IS THE WILL IN THE STATE TO ACTUALLY GO THAT FAR AT THIS POINT. I WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED IF IT MADE IT THROUGH. >> JAMIE, THE WILL COMES, LIIE SOPHIE MENTIONED, A LOT OF TIMES FROM CONSTITUENTS CALLING THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND SAYING, THIS IS HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS. AND THE NEEDLE, AS I MENTIONED, IS MOVING. AS OF LAST DECEMBER, THE LAST LARGE POLL IN THIS STATE WIDE, IT'S A SLIGHT MAJORITY IN FAVOR OF SAME SEX MARRIAGE OF SOME SORT IN NEW MEXICO. IS THAT GOING TO BE ENOUGH? >> OR DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS. >> OR DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS, TO BE VERY SPECIFIC. >> DO WE TRUST THE POLLS? BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS, WHEN YOU GET A POLL LIKE THAT, WHEN SOMEBODY IS ASKING YOU, ESPECIALLY IN A LIVE POLL, PERHAPS, IF THEY'RE ASKING THAT QUESTION, PEOPLE MAY NOT WANT TO, YOU KNOW, BE COMPLETELY HONEST FOR FEAR THAT THEY MAY BE RETALIATED AGAINST. >> THAT'S A VERY REAL THING. PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS. >> SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE CAN REALLY TRUST THAT.

SO THAT CASTS A DOUBT OVER THE WHOLE THING, WHETHER THERE IS THAT KIND OF PASSION BEHIND GETTING THIS STUFF DONE. I AGREE THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A BILL UP AT THE LEGISLATURE. >> AND THERE'S BEEN SOME MOVEMENT IN THE HOUSE, BUT IT NEVER REALLY DOES ANYTHING IN THE SENATE. DO YOU ANTICIPATE MUCH CHANGE FOR THESE THINGS? >> AS ELECTIONS GO, PEOPLE SAID THIS ABOUT REPEALING THE DEATH PENALTY FOR YEARS THEY'LL NEVER DO THAT, NEVER DO THAT. AND THEY REPEALED THE DEATH PENALTY. BUT I THINK, TO YOUR QUESTION THAT YOU ASKED JAMIE, REMEMBER IN NORTH CAROLINA WE JUST HAD THIS ON THE BALLOT A FEW WEEKS AGO, A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND THE POLLS GOING INTO THE ELECTION WAS OVERWHELMINGLY THAT THIS WAS GOING TO PASS. I MEAN, IT WAS, WE'RE GOING TO WIN IN NORTH CAROLINA. PEOPLE WERE DUMBFOUNDED. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE ELECTION COMES AND IT WAS WOEFULLY DEFEATED. SO THE POLLS COMING INTO NORTH CAROLINA WERE ALL SAYING, OH, THIS IS GOING TO PASS, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE PUSHING FOR THIS, THE NUMBERS ARE GOOD, BIG NUMBERS, BUT THEN ELECTION TIME COMES -- SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF LIKE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. I THINK IT'S INTERESTING, 31 STATES HAVE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO THIS, AND 31 STATES HAVE STRUCK THIS DOWN. AND I JUST THINK IT'S FUNNY

THAT WHENEVER PRESIDENT OBAMA DOES THIS, HE'S EVOLVING. WHENEVER MITT ROMNEY DOES THIS, HE'S FLIPPING. SO IT'S JUST INTERESTING THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD THIS FRUITION AS THE ELECTION IS GETTING READY TO COME AROUND. >> CONSTITUTIONALLY, WE HAVE THIS WHOLE PROCESS BEFORE IT GETS A CONSTITUTIONAL THING SO THE VOTERS CAN WEIGH IN ON IT. IT'S A HUGE DEAL WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT A CHANGE LIKE THAT. IS THAT APPROPRIATE? SHOULD EVERYBODY GET IN ON DOWN, AND THE PUBLIC GETS TO VOTE UP AND DOWN ON THIS? >> WELL, IT DEPENDS. I MEAN, IF YOU'RE GOING THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT ROUTE, THEN EVERYONE WILL GET TO VOTE. AND IF IT'S A BILL, THEN IT GOES TO THE GOVERNOR AND DIRECTLY HOW THE PEOPLE VOTED. >> WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF THE PEOPLE, THOUGH, THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, IF IT CAME TO THAT POINT? IF, IF, IF IT CAME TO THAT POINT. >> I HAVEN'T SEEN THE NUMBERS IN NEW MEXICO, AS FAR AS POLLING. AND I THINK THE NUMBERS CAN BE MANIPULATED. IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE POLL'S ASKED, AND A LOT OF THINGS LIKE THAT. I DO THINK SHORT TERM, THE GOVERNOR OPPOSES A DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS BILL, OR SAME SEX MARRIAGE, AND WITH A DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE, I DO THINK IN THE SHORT-TERM IT

WOULD BE HARD TO GET ANYTHING THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE. >> IT'LL BE TOUGH TO PASS THIS IN NEW MEXICO, I WOULD THINK, WITH THE VOTERS. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS SUCH A STRONG HOLD IN COMMUNITIES IN NEW MEXICO. AND THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW ISSUES, I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFETIME, EVEN MORE THAN ABORTION, THAT YOU CAN GET A CATHOLIC PRIEST TO GO IN AND GET THEM PREACHING FROM THE PULPIT, GET THEM TO MOVE THEIR CONGREGATIONS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. AND I THINK THAT IF THIS THING DID COME OUT, I THINK YOU'D SEE A STRONG PUSH IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DISCOUNT THAT IN NEW MEXICO. >> SOPHIE, WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT? IT MAKES SENSE TO ME. >> I UNDERSTAND WHAT DAN IS SAYING. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS -- I REALIZE THAT MARRIAGE IS SORT OF THE PURVIEW OF THE STATE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE STATES HAVE REGULATED. IT'S A DECISION OF THE STATE, AND THEN WE HAVE FULL FAITH AND CREDIT, WHERE OTHER STATES RECOGNIZE OTHER STATES' MARRIAGE LAWS. BUT I FEEL WITH CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUES, AND THIS IS WHAT I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE, SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY HAS AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN CIVIL RIGHTS. I'M SURE THAT MY RIGHTS PROFESSOR RIGHT NOW IS CLUTCHING HIS HEAD AS I'M SAYING THIS. BUT IT SORT OF MAKES ME A LITTLE CRAZY TO SEE MARRIAGE AS AN AMENDMENT TO THE

CONSTITUTION. WHAT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT IS RECOGNITION OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS, AND MARRIAGE BEING ONE OF THOSE RIGHTS, AS WAS ESTABLISHED BY THE SUPREME COURT WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE, IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT CERTAINLY BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN REGARDLESS OF THEIR ETHNICITY. IT FEELS TO ME LIKE IT SHOULD BE SOMETHING SIMILAR HERE, THAT IT NEEDS TO BE BROADER. >> I'VE GOT TO HOLD YOU GUYS THERE. WHEN WE COME BACK, WE'RE GOING TO BE "ON THE CLOCK." >> I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE POLITICAL CALCULATION WAS BY HER OR HER ADVISERS, BUT ULTIMATELY I THINK THAT SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE SAID ABOUT MR. ROMNEY'S POSITION ON THIS, BECAUSE IT IS UNTENABLE IN MANY WAYS. I'M NOT SURE THAT HER PRESCRIPTION FOR COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM IS ACTUALLY HELPFUL BECAUSE I THINK IT'S BEEN PROVEN THAT IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, LEGISLATIVELY. >> ALSO THIS WEEK, OUR

AMERICAN GRADUATE SERIES RETURNS. WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE AVID PROGRAM. THAT STANDS FOR ADVANCEMENT VIA INDIVIDUAL DETERMINATION NOW, TWICE A WEEK AVID STUDENTS GATHER TO HASH OUT QUESTIONS FROM OTHER CLASSES AND TO PREPARE FOR COLLEGE - FROM APPLICATIONS, TO TESTS, TO ACADEMIC READING. IT'S BEEN WILDLY POPULAR IN APS, WHERE ENROLLMENT IN AVID HAS TRIPLED AND THE NUMBER OF SCHOOLS USING THE CLASS HAS JUMPED FROM FIVE TO TWENTY-ONE. HERE'S NMIF PRODUCER MATT GRUBS. >> WHAT WAS THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION'S EFFECT ON SOCIAL AND POLITICAL IDENTITY? >> I JUST CAME TO SCHOOL. LIKE, I DIDN'T REALLY HAVE ANY GOOD REASON TO COME. IT DIDN'T BOTHER ME, BUT I FRESHMAN YEAR, IT WAS LIKE, I DON'T KNOW, I GUESS I HAVE TO COME TO SCHOOL. AND FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE AVID, THAT JUST CONTINUES, AND IT JUST GETS WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE. AND EVENTUALLY THEY JUST

SAY, EH, I'M DONE, I DON'T WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL ANYMORE. >> WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET INTO IT? >> YOU HAVE TO HAVE LIKE A IT WAS LIKE THE PEOPLE THAT >> THESE KIDS HAVE JUST BEEN KIND OF GOING THROUGH THE GROOVE, C'S AND D'S, OCCASIONAL B HERE AND THERE. >> DIDN'T HE WRITE A BOOK? WHAT WAS IT CALLED? YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS BOOK. >> I LIKE THE TUTORIALS. I LIKE HOW WE ALL GET IN A GROUP AND IT'S NOT JUST ADULTS, IT'S ALSO OUR PEERS WHO ARE ALSO IN OTHER CLASSES. WE START OUT WITH SOMETIMES TWO QUESTIONS THAT WE CAN ASK. >> ONE PERSON GOES UP AT A TIME, ASKS THE QUESTION, EVERYONE CONTRIBUTES. >> WHAT WAS YOUR QUESTION? >> WHAT WAS HITLER'S FINAL PLAN. LIKE, I JUST NEEDED THAT EXTRA MOTIVATION, SOME PUSH. AND IT ALSO GOT ME INTO NEW STUFF FOR COLLEGE, LIKE WHAT ON, SUCH AS SAT SCORES AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU GUYS? >> THAT'S ONE THING THAT HE TAUGHT US TO EMPHASIZE ON, IS ADVOCATING FOR YOURSELF. >> I'M FLUNKING ANYWAY, I'M SO FAR BEHIND, I'M LOST IN THIS CLASS, SO I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT. BUT HAD THEY HAD THOSE ADVOCATING SKILLS THAT THE AVID KID HAD TO SAY, HEY, I'M KINDA LOST HERE, IS THERE ANYWAY I CAN MEET WITH YOU BEFORE AND AFTER SCHOOL, THEY DON'T DO THAT. >> YOU TAKE CHARGE OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING. >> NOW THE TEACHER KNOWS THAT THIS KID ACTUALLY CARES AND IS PAYING ATTENTION IN THE CLASSROOM. NOW THAT TEACHER WILL PAY EXTRA ATTENTION, AND THEY UNDERSTAND THAT. >> I'M SURE IT SOUNDS MORE SIMPLE THAN IT IS. >> OH, YES, IT IS. IT REALLY IS, ESPECIALLY WITH SOME TEACHERS. BECAUSE MOST TEACHERS -- OR NOT MOST, BUT SOME TEACHERS ALL, AND THEY DON'T GO IN AT LUNCH. YOU BLAME IT ON THE TEACHER

FOR NOT BEING THERE, BUT IT'S YOUR FAULT FOR NOT GOING THAT EXTRA MILE TO GET >> WHAT'S IT LIKE TO HAVE OTHER STUDENTS COME TO YOU AND SAY, HEY, CAN YOU HELP ME WITH THIS MATH PROBLEM? >> I LIKE IT. I LIKE BEING ALMOST IMPORTANT TO ANOTHER KID. IT'S LIKE BEING VITAL. >> IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M ALSO IN AP CALCULUS, BUT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT AS WELL AS HE DOES. >> EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYTHING BACK, YOU'RE STILL HELPING. THAT'S A GOOD THING. >> AND HE SENDS IT DOWN TO CONGRESS ... >> IT'S JUST LIKE A FAMILY. YOU ENJOY COMING IN AND BEING REAL COMFORTABLE WITH ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE. >> WE'VE KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR THREE YEARS. IT'S LIKE, COMING TO CLASS AND SEEING THE PEOPLE THAT WE KNOW, AND THAT HELP EACH OTHER, AND WE GET ALONG REALLY WELL. >> THAT'S KIND OF WHAT KEEPS ME COMING BACK TO SCHOOL. >> WITH AVID, IT HELPED ME REALIZE HOW TO ACHIEVE MY GOALS, AND TO DO THAT I NEED TO GO TO SCHOOL. SO, NOW IT'S LIKE I HAVE TO COME, AND I WILL COME. SO, DROPPING OUT WAS NEVER A CONCERN OF MINE.

>> JUST KNOWING ALL THIS STUFF AND LEARNING ABOUT IT REALLY LIKE ENGAGES ME TO STAY IN SCHOOL AND BE HERE. >> AVID HAS JUST PUSHED YOU TO DO MORE THAN YOU THOUGHT YOU COULD. LIKE RIGHT NOW, I'M IN A PLAY THAT REQUIRES AFTER-SCHOOL REHEARSALS. I HAVE A DUAL CREDIT CLASS TUESDAYS AND THURSDAYS. AND THEN I HAVE WORK, AS WELL. SO THAT'S JUST A BUNCH OF STUFF. OH, AND REGULAR SCHOOL WITH TWO AP CLASSES. >> A LOT OF TEACHERS, THEY DIDN'T THINK I WAS GOING TO MAKE IT THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL, ACTUALLY. I SAW ONE OF MY 8TH GRADE TEACHERS THE OTHER DAY, AND SHE WAS LIKE, OH, SO YOU'RE -- I TOLD HER I WAS GOING TO GRADUATE, AND SHE WAS LIKE, OH, REALLY, SO YOU MADE IT. >> NOW I'M LIKE, I KNOW WHAT I NEED TO DO, AND I'M DOING IT. >> TIME WAITS FOR NO ONE. ESPECIALLY NOW BECAUSE WE'RE GOING "ON THE CLOCK." FIRST UP: GOVERNOR MARTINEZ'S DROUGHT DECLARATION. DAN FOLEY, ARE RANCHERS AND AGRICULTURAL PRODUCERS ALREADY OUT AHEAD OF THE

GOVERNOR ON THIS ONE? YOU'VE BEEN HAVING TO MAKE PLANS FOR THIS. THEY'VE GOT TO STOCKPILE FEED, YOU'VE GOT TO DO ALL KIND OF THINGS TO GET READY FOR THIS. >> YOU DO, BUT THE PROBLEM IS, WE'VE BEEN AT THIS FOR QUITE A WHILE. SO IT'S NOT LIKE THE PRICE OF ALFALFA WAS LOW TWO WEEKS AGO, AND NOW IT'S GOING HIGH. I JUST THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF FOLKS WHO ARE TO THE POINT NOW WHERE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY FEED ANYMORE. THEY CAN'T GROW THE ALFALFA. THEY CAN'T PAY THE WATER BILL. THEY CAN'T BUY CATTLE ANYMORE. >> AND WE'RE GOING TO FEEL IT HERE IN THE BIG CITY, AAEN'T WE, AT SOME POINT? IT ALL RADIATES UP. >> WELL, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK. AND I THINK HE'S RIGHT, THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN BRACING FOR THIS. I DON'T KNOW -- THE DECLARATION, I GUESS, FREES UP SOME FUNDING, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY CHANGE THE DAY-TO-DAY PROBLEMS THAT THEY'RE FACING. >> JUST ON THE 30, SOPHIE, HAVE YOU HEARD ENOUGH ABOUT HOW WE'RE ANTICIPATING FIGHTING FIRES AS A RESULT OF DROUGHT? THAT'S THE BIG DECLARATION I'M WAITING TO HEAR. >> YEAH, THE CLASSIC PUTTING OUT FIRES. WE CANNOT DAMPEN THE ENTIRE STATE, OBVIOUSLY, SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE A HIGH LEVEL OF VIGILANCE. THE CONCERN IN THIS SITUATION IN WHICH WE HAVE

ECONOMIC ISSUES FOR THE STATE IS THAT WE MAY HAVE CUT BACK SOME OF OUR PROTECTIONS. >> SURE. I'M GOING TO HOLD YOU ON THAT ONE, JAMIE, BECAUSE WE'RE MOVING ON. LET'S GET TO THE SUSANA MARTINEZ PROFILE IN NEWSWEEK. IN IT, SHE CRITICIZES MITT ROMNEY'S IMMIGRATION POLICIES AND THOSE OF REPUBLICANS AND OTHERS. IS THIS A VEEP NOMINATION KILLER, MR. JAMIE, OR IS THIS A PLANNED VEEP NOMINATION KILLER? >> I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE POLITICAL CALCULATION WAS BY HER OR HER ADVISERS, BUT ULTIMATELY I THINK THAT SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE SAID ABOUT MR. ROMNEY'S POSITION ON THIS, BECAUSE IT IS UNTENABLE IN MANY WAYS. I'M NOT SURE THAT HER PRESCRIPTION FOR COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM IS ACTUALLY HELPFUL BECAUSE I THINK IT'S BEEN PROVEN THAT IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, LEGISLATIVELY. WE JUST CAN'T GET PAST IMPASSES IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, IN PARTICULAR. THERE NEEDS TO BE A LITTLE BIT OF AN INCREMENTAL REFORM PROCESS HERE. SO I KIND OF DISAGREE WITH HER ON HER PRESCRIPTION. >> WE'RE AT 30, DAN BOYD. WHAT DID YOU THINK OF HOW HER PROFILE CAME OUT? JUST SORT OF THE PRINTED ATMOSPHERE.

WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OF HER, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO SHE WAS? >> I THINK IT WAS A VERY -- AS A NATIONAL PIECE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A PICTURE OF HER IN BLUE JEANS IN FRONT OF THE MOUNTAINS. KIND OF THE TYPICAL SANTA FE SHOT. AND IT WAS FAIRLY, YOU KNOW, PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT. BUT I THINK THEY DID FRAME SOME OF THE ISSUES WELL, AND I GUESS PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT KNOW HER OUT OF STATE, OTHER THAN THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE, THERE AREN'T REAL SURPRISES FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING HER. >> WE'RE OUT OF TIME ON THIS ONE. WE'LL DO SOME MORE OF THIS ONLINE, "ON THE CLOCK." BUT I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR COMING BY. PLEASE COME SEE US AFTER THE PRIMARIES ARE OVER. WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOUR THOUGHTS. >> YOU BET. THANKS A LOT. >> WE APPRECIATE YOU MAKING US PART OF YOUR WEEK, WHETHER IT'S STAYING IN ON A FRIDAY NIGHT, GETTING UP EARLY ON SUNDAY, OR MAKING TIME THROUGHOUT YOUR WEEKEND AS WE AIR AROUND THE STATE. WE'RE BACK FOR MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND WITH SPECIAL INTERVIEWS ABOUT DOCUMENTING BATAAN DEATH MARCH VETERANS, AND BEING A MUSLIM IN NEW MEXICO. AND WE'LL HAVE MORE OF OUR INTERVIEW WITH SAM DONALDSON AFTER THE JUNE PRIMARIES. I'M GENE GRANT. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK,