KEXP Presents Mind Over Matters; Sustainability Segment: Ingrid E. Newkirk

this is diane warren your host on the sustainability segment of mind over matter is and k x p seattle night when three of them and on the web add katie xv died orgy my guest this morning is including newkirk co founder and president of people for the ethical treatment of animals are peter the largest animal rights organization in the world england has spoken internationally on animal rights issues from the steps of the canadian parliament the streets of new delhi india where she spent her childhood her books include save the animals hundred and one easy things you can do in the pit a practical guide to animal rights include new crib is here today to tell us about progress in animal rights and to discuss how our relationship with animals can best evolve in the future or welcoming grad thank you dan delighted to be here it's great to have you won with speedo founded what is a history well i like many people grew up caring about animals are pouring cruelty to animals but i didn't realize back then and i'm sixty four and a half when i was growing up we ate animals as well i certainly got fur and

leather i got my first that coat when i was nineteen i went fishing with my father i'm an oath as things like that so we compartmentalize to our interests and i respect for animals we were it's never countenance anyone kicking the dog really detested fox hunting i grew up partially in in england but we didn't think about those other uses and abuses of animals so when i grew up and i had a number of experiences each one a learning experience it opened my eyes to some sort of cruelty and farming in the bart train i became a bar to inspect our hands that was really an eye opener and i became a law enforcement officer and actually went out on a falling poll where some people had abandoned animals on a farm and i saw for myself and we all these instances but animals suffer very very much when they're ready canola to buy people and we just see that it's we see that it's hanging out on a

rack in a clothing store or under plastic in the supermarkets and we didn't think twice about it so i made the decision that if i cared about animals and didn't know that i might want to look into what the alternatives to eating and wearing animals and testing cosmetics and what have you on them and entertaining yourself with them so i did i did the homework formed a small group we would just five to begin with and went out to try to talk to other people who cared about animals didn't like cruelty and say hang on a minute there are other ways in which you can help it doesn't do you any good really to give a small check or even a large check to a humane society of an animal welfare group one c a youth every day you're going to the drug store the grocery store and buying shoes and what have you that come about as direct result of cruelty so you can scrap the check the

truck racing which occurred and instead not spend those thousands of dollars on things that directly harm animals in ways you may not see you're not likely to go behind the scenes as i did that choose things that are kind choice is making kind traces was the famous the girl back in nineteen eighty when we started and it still is today what are the goals of peter it's really to get respect for the others to happen not to be like ours it's an extension of what children should be taught in school which is that it doesn't really matter what package an individual comes in its really not relevant what their skin color gender or religion and first what this feces maybe it's that they all these individuals feel pain you ban anyone any individual with a cigarette and they're going to be in pain or someone to live they all loved they are all

lonely they'll experience joy and it's just really prejudice that has kept us from extending consideration to others use be women got short shrift some still do another parts of the world people with disabilities were disregarded even institutionalized and we've done atrocious things seem human history that all came about because of discrimination because of feeling superior to everyone else and animal rights as just an extension of that idea that the package doesn't matter it's who's inside and what their basic interest off and that includes of course respect and sometimes the greatest respect is just to leave them in peace in your view what progress has been made in animal rights in the past fifty years well i would first have to say there was an awful lot of progress to be made when

we started and there still is it's not as if you have i don't use the word luxury but i well the luxury of having one area in which animals are being asked that runs the gamut know you have radios and shackles inside person or close persian marine amusement parks then animals used for their skin even this game is taken from them babies taken away from their mothers hunting lodges setup for so called sport it really is it covers everything and of course everyone knows today factory farming industrialized production of animals as if they were in amman that is a hard so that was a long way to go but we have made significant progress when peter started in nineteen eighty i think there were two places where you could actually buy shampoo that wasn't tested in the rabbit size and today there are about oh a thousand or so places including big companies that wasn't fo fo really that

hadn't come on the market will play other instead of love that people didn't have the selections there was no soy milk or almond milk and the grocery store and children had to dissect had to cut up the frog while the cat's cell towers i and of course now they have choice because we have passed these policies in school districts and even in state law where you can object to dissection and you can have a much more humane and educational experience in school so a lot has changed we have stopped many experiments by exposing them as completely craun worth less for example general motors was the last car company to use baboons and pigs in these steering wheel crash tests and all the car companies use them one time and we campaign was successful and now you see the mannequins on television and that's because they've stopped using animals so progress yes and a lot of progress left to go how do our assumptions about animals' inner view of animal rights changed over time in your view oh i can

see it very clearly being of this wise old age of sixty four and a half pound because when i was growing up my parents loved animals but it has a different meaning to the phrase animal rights didn't exist of course until the late sixties early seventies when peter singer wrote this marvelous book called animal liberation which certainly changed my perspective back than that i think we have changed a lot and you can see that in the media you can see it in people's attitudes part of it we have to give credit to people like dr jane goodall took a pretty girl to cost you studied the orangutans dian fossey with the great apes share christo because these people opened up our eyes to the behaviors of animals that they weren't automaton say one battery operated toys they had thoughts they had feelings they had reflection and it's hard now for anyone to pretend that they don't know that animals a feeling and he had back then you had it very

ornamentation everywhere now we have mr obama saying let's burn the ivory let's stop the trade everything a woman's success was measured and whether or not she had done well enough to get a fur coat often with detail the poison the head of the animal still stuck on may make peace corps that's changed and now that's not what people growing up wants that's not the sign of success don't get away from all that stuff so we've learned a lot i'm diane horan and my guest is inconvenient crick co founder and president of people for the ethical treatment of animals are peter i can't because animal rights in your tune to the sustainability segment of mind over matter is our listener power and katie eckstein it point three of hand and on the web that katie xv died or at how would you characterize the overall approach of peter and addressing animal rights it's changed a lot because society has changed to and i regret to say that todays culture is very focused on celebrity it's focused on

finance and it's focused on sex and when i see violence i mean confrontation every year it seems it gets worse you used to be able to debate things but sensibly and put out a lot of facts and have people mold them over actually have discourse but those kinds of conversations are few and far between now what you have is stricter with a hundred and forty characters you have a way of you have blogs competing and you have a lot of high it's very hard to boil down a social issue into a few words first sound bite you really need to be able to explain and persuade and offer options and talk things out especially when people might get defensive if you're not talking about something like as greenpeace did in the early days talking about whaling in japan or russia everyone could get on board with that said if they were in the united states or europe and say oh yes that shouldn't happen though it pete and we're talking about

what's in our closets water in our bus in cabinets what is in our refrigerator it's very possible and so of course very not unexpectedly people might bristle a little bit and say well i didn't see anything wrong with that we've always done that and then our job is to say well yes we have poet ai today we know this about animals that about animals we have options narrow show you that is very hard to condense that so we find ourselves often in the position of having to use gimmickry having to use sexualized advertising and having to very quickly grab people's attention in the hope that when we grabbed it for whatever reason they will then perhaps come to peter dot org the website and see something more perhaps though watch a little fella want to learn ten reasons that it's good for the earth to

be vegetarian or anything untoward that they weren't expecting when they got that soundbite what is your evidence that this type of approach seems to work it's very clear actually it's quite track coupled because you can track how many people come to your website how long they stay there are how many are unique visits how many watched the videos and how many download them how many pass them on to their friends and how many people actually perhaps sign a petition or sent a letter to their member of congress all this is very measurable and it does work what do you consider the key accomplishments of peter i think changing hearts and minds again that that's not a very exciting thing to say and perhaps something like switching the pigs and baboons from mannequins is it more visually interesting but i believe you the fact that you know a the old environmental movement it was the young people who moved their parents and move their

teachers they are the ones who learned about hard woodson they learned about water pollution and so on and they taught us and what we have today which is very encouraging is peter has the biggest youth movement of annie's social activity group in the world and we have young people who do not want to hurt animals and anyway and they have done well we have a college feet and cookbook a skateboard is the music festivals all things where yeah and people hang out they have a very strong animal rights presence and they are going to drive the markets they're the ones who say i would rather have this versus that and that's a wonderful thing what do you consider to be the key animal rights issues at present there is so many unfortunately i certainly think that before i die unless i step out again got run over by a bus that elephants have to come out of the circus and wild animals have to come out of the sex like tigers that attract around in these cages

and that all colors and dolphins have to come out of these aquariums amusement parks wild animals belong in their homelands or the home scenes they belong in the oceans that belong in the jungles and of the woods and forests they have their own social or dare he do not belong in a cement both taught me what it is to them is the size of a bus tubs or performing stupid tricks or in the case of elephants they really shouldn't be dominated they shouldn't be shackled in the basement of an arena somewhere and hits with this fire plays poker like thing called the bull hook so that they'll stand on their heads you know in the wild right called the wild but in their homelands in africa and in india and in asia generally elephants own wonderful social animals they've so incredibly intelligent and the nazis and the aunts and the sisters will stay together and a female elephant will never leave the side of these other females for

life and yet you get something like ringling brothers of colson and bonds and they take the baby's away when they're a year or so we have the photos we have the video you can see it on the website they will remove these babies from their loving mothers the baby's panic and then the tie them down by all fours and beat them into submission until they learned this is what humans do and it's so unnatural for them they don't understand why they should stand on their head to raise this leg or raise their trunks it's absolutely goes against everything that's normal for them and yet they are beaten down into submission and their whole life is just going from place to place in the railroad cars in the shackles standing in their own waste doing the tricks and it's just wrong and that all has to go but that's just one of the things we're working on we'd like to mention some other issues that you again i'd be delighted one of the things we're

working on is getting the camille switched going first successfully into the schools because the kids want the cameo lines they want the team meal plans they won't seek and meals and it's wonderful for them to because i'm like my generation most of us grew up you know with meat potatoes of etched on the side my generation suffers from hardened arteries heart attack diabetes stroke overweight these kids are going to be far healthier but also they're doing it for the right reasons they're doing it because they know that the production and dairy production to are environmentally destructive so we see this marvelous changes happening in the schools we're working on closing issues very hard we've just exposed and china where most of angora comes from the fact that rabbits are life plucked and rabbits auriemma it's very very disturbing to watch the films we show in the films to retailers i'm happy to say again that because consumers

demanded this of retailers retailers are pulling the angora we also of course we've been on the cattle drives india people find this hard to imagine because you think of india as a place of sacred cows that's it's a fact that indian curse are slaughtered it's just that people there don't eat the flash and the letter is sent over to europe and to the united states to north america and that's left her comprises a lot of what we see in the shops and the suffering of those cattle is intense that journey is in the heat and the dust tied together with no's ropes knows is pleading for and down you know we don't need any of this so we show people we say look if you buy a weapon of the jacket or that leather sofa this is what you are supported and you don't want to do that day you hear the options to use something that doesn't have an animal attached to it and the

animals will be better off and you'll be happier you are ten to the sustainability segment of mind over matter is i'm katie xt seattle ninety point three fm and on the web add k e x key data orgy and diane warren and my guest is ingrid and crick co founder and president of people for the ethical treatment of animals peta or topic is animal rights holders having pets companion animals fit into animal rights what is your view well i have written the book about dogs and i've written one that kept some the one that was the finest writes really was let's have a dog party and i did at the time when you saw people like paris hilton and britney spears getting dogs as if they were sweet on candy they were accoutrements to their nights life lifestyle and they dragged them into a disc texan who knows what and i sought this is not how a dog should be treated really then knots little toys that they're thinking feeling individuals so i write this

book in an upbeat sway to say what you're getting a dog here the things to know from an animal rights or from a piece i should say perspective the key issues are please don't read your dog or cat please go to the shelter not the breeder because if she goes with a breeder that perpetuates this hummus a cycle of more and more animals being born and nowhere for them all to go so if you go to the shelter you're saving a life and we say if you have the time because animals require time they're like children if you do it properly they need to be looked at and looked after you have the patients to understand the money because veterinary care isn't cheap and you're really going to respect them have a symbiosis relationship there where you have the patients to take them out to carry them on their walk and so on and you get them sterilized please don't get too don't get one get two and then they'll keep each other company when you are off to work or school or how to the movies

is it fair to keep animals suspense today i think it very much is because the shelters off bursting with them and there's nowhere to put them but having an animal of course is a lifetime commitment of that animal they may live eight's twelve fifteen maybe eighteen years i have a little ducks and who lived to be seventy nine a little mixture oil believed to be on a statin and when they get old they require extra care that's something i see where people say oh he's just old just old it's whittled a judge later know it will leave you know your eyesight it might get them out and your gates might get slower and you might have a once in a while he needs to have extra care not to just have a say are they getting old but to really make sure they're getting things for the joints that they're comfortable but they're up off the ground that they're not exposed

to drugs that they're not hard along that they're given time and so on so it does require a big commitment that if we and not just going to become a blunt in that dog a cat's life where we dash and show the third down and dash out again and yes it could be lovely for them then very very nice for us would you come in on the issue of keeping dogs and cats indoors versus outdoors well i work all winter long and peter does in some impoverished areas of north carolina and low vision and what we see with dogs kept outside is dogs kept on chains and their arsenal weather and people tend to be huddled around the fire of a central heating in their own home and there's this push of ring dog outside so we did have a straw for the dog houses we didn't have a dog has this because often they may just have a barrel metal barrel or something up against the fence and i can tell you from looking at them and knowing that if you take them off that chain are you open the door

they want nothing more than to be in the warmth and to be with you so if you have a cat's isay get a harness and go outside spend time and let your cat sniff around outside but don't let your cat out unattended because we have predators human and foxes and other things her out for your cat traffic predation is one thing traffic's another disease if they catch a bird or a mouse they can get toxic as mrs so something else from more tape worms or what have you it's not safe outside in a built up society for a dog or a cat or a toddler so keep it all inside go out supervised walks take into the pockets their dogs have a wonderful time to go camping and kayaking will those things but inside with you is where they belong when you were them what is your view of no kill shelters they think it's marvelous if anybody takes in one or two or twenty if they can do it properly but i think this buzz phrase of no

pillows very damaging because what he does is really cost of bad way of looking at the open admission shelters if you have a shelter and you say it's going to be no kill pretty soon you find as somebody i know who runs one in palm beach said nine thousand animals wants come in they have nowhere to go but you really can find homes for two hundred so if you're on a no kill place your options are very limited you have to close the door and then what becomes of those others there isn't a magic wand which makes and suddenly disappear they're abandoned or they are tied up for their abuse or they dont outside the shelter things happen to them that are not nice or the continued treating and making more so awful choices have to be made in a world where it's so easy to get hold of a dog or a cat and there are so few lawyers in fact often none that require to sterilize them so that they don't keep producing and

what we find is no kill shelters has often they restrict the hours that charge money for intake they don't impose any conditions for homes so you find animals going to court has basements an awful place in texas where these foster homes were taking animals because he'd didn't want the shelter to kill them and over a hundred cats or in one house and kept an individual carriers has caught on fire the carriers were plastic and every one of those cats died with the plastic melting and neck area i think no kill promotes hoarding it promotes absent lack of standards and it ignores the fact but something has to be done and no one has come up with anything better to do other than to hold animals were unwanted in your arms and let them slip away not knowing that they're not going to wake up again how

can our relationship with animals best of golf in the future what steps should repay i think it's really important to talk to children because they should grow up with this idea that non violence is a virtue kindness of course as a virtue and these shouldn't be words he should be imparted to them as deeds and so that business of making prank choices that we teach children and we act ourselves as if every decision when they can life can have an impact because it can but from an animal rights perspective it's really just a pitcher buying traces that's the key look at what you buy and if there's an animal attached to it anyway don't do it just get away from it all that's the message you'd like to leave our listeners with please go to our website and i say that because not only is it educational and it's not all depressing it's also offers a lot of resources and matter what anyone doesn't who anyone is where they're from

their a wonderful things to learn that you can acquire or change a little bit of everything from clothing whether your fashion the story are about to go hiking there alternatives to down there alternatives to war we have fascinating information on the cruelty in the wool trade which there's people have never heard of and of course we have super recipes and you see a silver stearns cookbooks kind cookbook is on the way and then we have alternatives to animals and entertainment today section as i mentioned pretty much everything and we will help scientists who are working in a bar trees where animals he used find some of the most sophisticated way to get that information we have over a thousand physicians who help without looking so much for being here and thank you you were just listening to intervene and crick co founder and president of people for the ethical treatment of animals are peter

for more information check on the web at peter dot org again that's p e t a doubt oh archie the sustainability segment of mind over matters program you've just heard will be on the screening archives section of katie excuse website at kd ex piano it for the next fourteen days in addition sustainability segment interviews are available as podcasts along with k e x he's music podcasts go to k x feat otto it click on demand and then podcasting i'm diane warren thanks for listening and be sure to turn into the sustainability segment again next week and listener part ninety point three fm and k e x p that or a g