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Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana Ana you In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form
and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. This is the song of the world from a legend of the Pima Indians. In the beginning, there was only darkness everywhere, darkness in the water and the darkness gathered thick in place and crowding together and then separating and crowding and separating. And the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters and God said, let there be light. This is from the Hindu Upanishad. In the beginning, there was only the great self reflected in the form of a person. Reflecting, it found nothing but itself, then its first word was, this am I.
Why is it Joseph Campbell wondered that in almost every cultural earth, you can find stories that tell a virgin's giving birth to heroes who died and are resurrected. Osiris, Tamuz, Adonis, Jesus of Nazareth, parallel stories of suffering, sacrifice and redemption. And why did certain sites take on holy status? One religion follow another on the very same spot, believers coming century after century
for healing or for some other blessing from their different gods. The pyramids on the Nile, the Ziggarots of Mesopotamia, the Aztec shrines, the cathedrals, the charter and Notre Dame, all pointing beyond the visible plane of existence. Very deep in our DNA, Campbell concluded, no matter who we are, is the need to worship, to believe and the capacity for reverence. Religion, with its symbols and rituals and stories, is the way we mortals try to connect to that unseen world. Most Roman Catholic, Campbell's own life experiences made him a maverick in search of the sublime. Over the last two summers of his life, in hours of conversations recorded in the library of Lucasfilm in California, we talked about how mythology can still awaken a sense of all gratitude and even rapture. Why am I this?
Why should we care about this? What do they have to do with my life? Well, my first answer would be, well, John, live your life, it's a good life, you don't need this. I don't believe in being interested in subjects because they're said to be important and interesting. I believe in being caught by it somehow or other. But you may find that with a proper introduction, this subject will catch you. And so what can it do for you when it does catch you? These bits of information from ancient times, which have to do with the themes that have supported man's life, built civilizations, informed religions over the millennia, have to do with deep inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds of passage. And if you don't know what the guide signs are along the way, you have to work it out yourself.
But once this catches you, there is always such a feeling from one or another of these traditions of information, of a deep, rich, life-vivifying thought that you want to give it up. To myths are stories of the search by men and women through the ages for meaning, for significance, to make life signify, to touch the eternal, to understand the mysterious, to find out who we are. People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. I don't think that's what we're really seeking. I think what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that the life experiences that we have on the purely physical plane will have resonances within that are those of our own innermost being and reality, and so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.
That's what it's all finally about, and that's what these clues help us to find with in ourselves. Myths are clues. Myths are clues to the spiritual potentialities of the human life. What we're capable of knowing within, and experiencing within, I like your definition, you change the definition of a myth from the search for meaning to the experience of life. The experience of life, the mind has to do with meaning in here. That's the meaning of a flower, that does a zen story of the sermon of the Buddha when his whole company was gathered and he simply lifted a flower, and there's only one man Kashiapa who gave him a sign with his eye that he understood what was said. What's the meaning of the universe? What's the meaning of a flea? It's just there, and your own meaning is that you're there. Now, we are so engaged in doing things to achieve purposes of outer value that we forget,
that the inner value, the rapture that is associated with being alive is what it's all about. Now, we want to think about God. God is a thought, God is a name, God is an idea, but its reference is to something that transcends all thinking. The ultimate mystery of being is beyond all categories of thought. My friend, Heinrich Simmer, years ago used to say, the best things can't be told, because they transcend thought. The second best is misunderstood, because those are the thoughts that are supposed to refer to that which can't be thought about, you know, and one gets stuck with the thoughts. The third best is what we talk about, you see. The myth is that field of reference, metaphors, referring to what is absolutely transcendent. What can't be known?
What can't be known? Or can't be named, except in our own feeble attempt to clothe it in language. And the ultimate word in our language for that which is transcendent is God. Do you remember what went through your mind the first time you saw Michelangelo's creation? By the time I became aware of that, my notion of divinity was not quite so personal, you know. The idea of God, but he's a bearded old man of some kind with certain, not very pleasant temperament. That is, I would say, a sort of materialistic way of talking about the transcendent. There's just the object of it found on an island in the harbor of Bombay from around the 8th century. This is a wonderful cave. You enter the cave from a bright sky, of course, moving into the darkness here, eyes are blanked out.
But if you just keep walking slowly, gradually the eyes are just and this enormous thing, it's about 19 feet high and 19 feet across. The central head is the mask of eternity. This is the mask of God. Mask of eternity? That is the metaphor through which the eternity is to be experienced as a radiance. And these are the two figures? Whenever one moves out of the transcendent, one comes into a field of opposites. These two pairs of opposites come forth as male and female from the two sides. One has eaten of the tree of the knowledge, not only of good and evil, but of male and female, of right and wrong, of this and that, a light and dark. Everything in the field of time is dual, past and future, dead and alive. All this being and non-being is isn't. And what's the significance of them being beside the mask of God, the mask of eternity?
What is this sculpture saying to us? The mask represents the middle and the two represent the two opposites and they always come in pairs and put your mind in the middle. Most of us put our minds on the side of the good against what we think of as evil. There was Heraclitus, I think, who said, for God, all things are good and right and just, but for man, some things are right and others are not. You're in the field of time when you're man. And one of the problems of life is to live in the realization of both terms. That's to say, I know the center and I know that good and evil are simply temporal apparitions. Well, are some myths more or less true than others? They're true in different senses, do you see?
Here's a whole mythology based on the insight that transcends duality. Ours is a mythology that's based on the insight of duality. And so our religion tends to be ethical in its accent. Sin and detonement, right and wrong. It started with a sin, you see. In other words, moving out of the mythological zone, the Garden of Paradise where there is no time. And where men and women don't even know that they're different from each other, the two are just creatures. And the Garden man are practically the same. He walks in the cool of the evening in the Garden where we are. And then they eat the apple, the knowledge of the pairs of opposites. And man and woman then cover their shame, they're different. Garden man, they're different.
Man and nature is against man. I once heard a wonderful lecture by Dyset Suzuki. You remember it's wonderful old Zen philosopher who was over here in his 90s. He started a lecture in Switzerland and I heard in Estonia. He stood up with his hands on his side and he said, God against man, man against God, man against nature, nature against man, nature against God, against nature, very funny religion. Now in the other mythologies, one puts oneself in accord with the world. If the world is a mixture of good and evil, you do not put yourself in accord with it. You identify with the good and you fight against the evil. And this is a religious system which belongs to the Near East, following Saratosh's time. It's in the biblical tradition all the way. In Christianity and Islam as well, this business of not being with nature.
And we speak with the sort of derogation of the nature religions. You see with that fall in the garden nature was regarded as corrupt. There's a myth for you that corrupts the whole world for us. And every spontaneous act is sinful because nature is corrupt and has to be corrected, must not be yielded to. You get a totally different civilization, a totally different way of living, according to your myth as to whether nature is fallen or whether nature is itself, a manifestation of divinity and the spirit being the revelation of the divinity that's inherent in nature. Don't you think that Americans, modern Americans, have rejected this idea, this Indian idea, this ancient idea of nature as revealing the divinity because it would have kept us from achieving dominance over nature? Yeah, but that's the biblical condemnation of nature that they inherited from their own religion and brought with them. The God is not in nature.
God is separate from nature and nature is not God. And this distinction between God and the world is not found in basic Hinduism or Buddhism either. I'll never forget the experience I had when I was in Japan. To be in a place that never heard of the fall in the garden of Eden. To be in a place where I can read in one of the Shinto texts, the processes of nature cannot be evil. When every impulse, every natural impulse is not to be corrected but to be sublimated, you know, to be beautified and the glorious interest in the beauty of nature and cooperation with nature and coordination so that in some of those gardens who don't know where nature begins
and art ends, this to me was a tremendous experience and it's another mythology. Speaking of different mythologies, let's just have a little fun here. I took these from your atlas. I'll read Genesis. I'll read from Genesis and then you identify and read from the corresponding in Genesis 1. So God created man in his own image. In the image of God, he created him. Male and female, he created them. Then God blessed them and God said to them, be fruitful and multiply. Now this is from a legend of the Bessari people of West Africa. Unumbutte made a human being. Its name was man. Unumbutte next made an antelope named Antelope. Unumbutte made a snake named snake and Unumbutte said to them, the earth has not yet been pounded. You must pound the ground smooth where you are sitting.
Unumbutte gave them seeds of all kinds and said, go plant these. And Genesis 1, and God saw everything that he had made and behold it was very good. And from the Upanishad, then he realized, I indeed am this creation for I have poured it forth for myself. In that way, he became this creation. And verily, he who knows this becomes in this creation a creator. That's the clincher there. When you know this, then you've identified with the creative principle yourself, which is the God power in the world, which means in you. It's beautiful. What do you think we're looking for? When we subscribe to one of these theories of creation, one of these stories of creation, what are we looking for? Well, I think what we're looking for is a way of experiencing the world in which we are living that will open to us the transcendent that informs it and at the same time informs ourselves within it. That's what people want.
That's what the soul asks for. You mean we're looking for some accord with the mystery that informs all things, that what you call that vast ground of silence, which we all share. Yes, but not only to find it, but to find it actually in our environment, in our worlds, to recognize it, to have some kind of instruction that will enable us to see the divine presence in the world and in us. In India, this wonderful angely, this greeting, you know what that means? That's the greeting of prayer, isn't it? That's what we use for prayer. I greet you with that. That's greeting the God that's in you as you come in. These people are aware of the divine presence. When you enter an Indian home as a guest, you are visiting deity and you feel it by God the way they treat you. It's something in the way of a hospitality that you don't get where you have simply one person and another person is the recognition of the identity. But weren't people who told these stories and
believed them and acted on the masking far more simple questions, you know, who made the world? How was the world made? Why was the world made? Are these the questions that these creation stories are trying to address? No. It's true that answer that they see that the creator is present in the whole world. You see what I mean? This story that we've just read, I see that I am this creation, says the God. When you see that God says he is the creation and then you are a creature when the God is within you and the man you're talking to also. And so there's that realization, two aspects of the one divinity. A chord again, harmony again. Wonderful thing. Let me ask you some questions about these common features in these stories. The significance of the forbidden fruit. Well, there is this standard full-tail motif called the one forbidden thing. Remember in Bluebeard, don't open that closet, you know, and then one always does it. And in the Old Testament
story, God gives the one forbidden thing and he knows very well. Now I'm interpreting God. He knows very well that man's going to eat the forbidden fruit. But it's by doing that, that man becomes the initiator of his own life. Life really begins with that. I also find in some of these early stories the human tendency to find someone to blame. Let me read Genesis 1. Then I'll ask you to read one from the Bessara legend. Genesis 1. And God said, have you eaten from the tree which I commanded you that you should not eat? Then the man said, the woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree and I ate. And the Lord God said to the woman, what is this you've done? And the woman said, the serpent deceived me and I ate. I mean, you talk about book passing. It starts very early. That's right. And then there's the Bessara legend. It's been tough on serpents, too. One day Snake said, we too should eat these fruits. Why must we go hungry? Antelope said,
but we don't know anything about this fruit. Then man and his wife took some of the fruit and ate it. Unumpte came down from the sky and asked, who ate the fruit? They answered, we did. Unumpte asked, who told you that you could eat that fruit? They replied, snake did. It's the same story. What do you make of this? That in all of these stories, the principal actors are pointing to someone else as the initiator of the fall. Yeah, but it turns out to be Snake. And Snake, both of these stories, is the symbol of life throwing off the past and continuing to live. Why? The power of life, because the snake sheds its skin, just as the moon sheds its shadow. The snake in most cultures is positive. Even the most poisonous ain't in India. The cobra is the sacred animal and the serpent, the naga, the serpent king, the naga raja, is the next thing to the Buddha, because the serpent
represents the power of life in the field of time to throw off death. And the Buddha represents the power of life in the field of eternity to be eternally alive. I saw a fantastic thing of a Burmese priestess, a snake priestess who had to bring rain to her people by calling a king cobra from his den and kissing him three times on the nose. There was the cobra, the giver of life, the giver of rain, which is of life, as a divine, positive, not negative figure. The Christians who were his turn it around, because the serpent was the seducer. Well, what that amounts to is a refusal to affirm life. Life is evil in this field. Every natural impulse is sinful unless you've been baptized or circumcised in this tradition that we've inherited for heaven's sakes.
By having been the temptor, women have paid a great price because in mythology, some of this mythology, they are the ones who led to the downfall. Of course they did. I mean, they represent life. Man doesn't end a life except by a woman. And so it is woman who brings us into the world of polarities and the pair of opposites and suffering and all. But I think it's a really childish attitude to say no to life with all its pain, you know? To say this is something that should not have been. Chopin Howard, and one of his marvelous chapters, I think it's in the world's world of ideas, says, life is something that should not have been. It is, in its very essence and character, a terrible thing to consider. This business of living by killing and eating. I mean, it's in sin in terms of all ethical judgments all the time. As Zorba says, you know, trouble? Life is trouble.
That's it. Only death is no trouble. And when people say to me, you know, do you have optimism about the world, you know, how terrible it is? I said, yes, just say it's great. Just the way it is. But doesn't that lead to a rather passive attitude in the face of evil and the face of the world? You participate in it. Whatever you do is evil for somebody. But explain that for the audience. I mean, you say yes to that which you... Well, when I was in India, it was a man whose name was Shri Krishna Menon, and his mystical name was Mananda, and he was in Trivandrum, and I went to Trivandrum. And I had the wonderful privilege of sitting face-to-face with him, as I'm sitting here with you. And the first thing he said to me is, do you have a question? And because the teacher there always answers questions, he doesn't tell you what anything. He answers. And I said, yes, I have a question. I said, since Hindu thinking all the universe is
divine, is a manifestation of divinity itself? How can we say no to anything in the world? How can we say no to brutality, to stupidity, to vulgarity, to thoughtlessness? And he said, for you and me, you must say yes. Well, I learned from my friends who were students of his, that that happened to have been the first question he asked his guru, and we had a wonderful talk for about an hour there on this theme of the affirmation of the world. And it confirmed me in a feeling I had had that who are we to judge? And it seems to me that this is one of the great teachings of Jesus. Well, I see now what you mean in one respect. In some classic Christian doctrine, the world is
to be despised. Life is to be redeemed in the hereafter. It is heaven where our rewards come. And if you affirm that what you deplore, as you say, you're affirming the world, which is our our eternity of the moment. That's what I would say. Eternity isn't some later time. Eternity isn't a long time. Eternity has nothing to do with time. Eternity is that dimension of here and now what's thinking in time cuts out. This is it. This is this is my. If you don't get it here, you won't get it anywhere. And the experience of eternity right here and now is the function of life. There's a wonderful formula that the Buddhists have for the bodhisattva. The bodhisattva, the one who's being sattva is illumination bodhi, who realizes his identity with eternity and at the same time, his participation in time. And the attitude is not to withdraw from the world when you realize how horrible it is, but to realize that this horror is simply the foreground of a wonder.
And come back and participate in it. All life is sorrowful as the first Buddhist saying. And it is. It wouldn't be life if there were not temporality involved, which is sorrow, loss, loss, loss. That's a pessimistic note. Well, you can't say yes to it and say it's great this way. I mean, it's the way God intended it. You don't really believe it. But this is the way it is. And I don't believe anybody intended it, but this is the way it is. And Joyce's wonderful line, you know, history is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awake. And the way to awake from it is not to be afraid. And to recognize this, I did, in my conversation with that Hindu guru or teacher that I told you of, that all of this, as it is, is as it has to be, and it is a manifestation of the eternal presence in the world. The end of things always is painful. Pain is part of there,
being a world at all. But if one accepted that isn't the ultimate conclusion to say, well, I won't try to perform any laws or fight any battles or pain. I didn't say that. Isn't the logical, couldn't one draw that though, the philosophy of nihilism? Well, that's not the necessary thing to draw. You could say, I will participate in this row, and I will join the army, and I will go to war. I'll do the best I can. I will participate in the game. It's a wonderful, wonderful opera. Except that it hurts. And that wonderful Irish saying, you know, is this a private fight or can anybody get into it? This is the way life is, and the hero is the one who comes to participate in it decently, in the way of nature, not in the way of personal ranker, revenge, or anything of the kind. Let me tell you one story here of a samurai warrior, a Japanese
warrior who had the duty to avenge the murder of his overlord. And he actually, after some time found and cornered the man who had murdered his overlord. And he was about to deal with him with his samurai sword. When this man in the corner, in the passion of terror, spat in his face, and that samurai she'd the sword and walked away. Why did he do that? Why? Because he was made angry. And if he had killed that man, then it would have been a personal act of another kind of act that's what he had come to do. Let me tell you what happens to me when I read these stories, no matter the culture of their origin, I feel first this sense of wonder at the spectacle of the human imagination, simply groping to try to understand this existence. Does that ever happen to you? I tell you mythology, I think, as the homeland of the muses,
the inspires of art, the inspires of poetry. And to see life as a poem, and yourself participating in a poem, is what the myth does for you. What do you mean a poem? I mean a vocabulary in the form, not of words, but of acts and adventures, which is a connotative, which connotes something transcendent of the action here, and which yet informs the whole thing. So you always feel in accord with the universal being. Well, the interesting thing to me is that far from undermining my faith, your work in mythology has liberated my faith from the cultural prisons to which it had been sentenced. It liberated my own. I know it's going to do it with everybody who really gets the message. Every mythology, every religion, is true. In this sense, it is true as metaphorical
of the human and cosmic mystery. But when it gets stuck to the metaphor, then you're in trouble. The metaphor being... Well, Jesus ascended to heaven. The story is he ascended bodily to heaven. The story is that his mother is still alive, asleep, ascended to heaven. So this is metaphorical of something. You don't have to throw it away or you have to find us what it's saying. What do you think it is saying? What it's saying is he didn't go out there. He went in here, which is where you must go, too, and ascend to heaven through the inward space to that source from which you and all life came. That's the sense of that. But aren't you undermining one of the great cardinal doctrines of the traditional classic Christian faith, the death of the burial and the resurrection of Jesus, prefiguring our own and overcoming the body with a higher physical truth? Well, that would be what I would call the mistaken reading of the symbol. That's reading
it in terms of prose instead of in terms of poetry. That's reading a metaphor in terms of the denotation instead of in terms of the connotation. You understand that. It's a purely literary problem. The poetry gets to the unseen reality. That which is beyond even the concept of reality. Which transcends all thought. It's putting you there all the time. And then in some way giving you a line to connect with that mystery, which you are and the myths do it by God. They do it. Now, according to the normal way of thinking about the Christian religion, we cannot identify with Jesus. We have to imitate Jesus, but to say, I am God, as Jesus said, is for us blasphemy. However, in the Thomas Gospel, Jesus says, he who drinks from my mouth will become as I am and I shall be
he. Wow. That's Buddhism. We are all manifestations of Buddha consciousness. Only don't know it. And the Buddha, the word means one who wakes up, but to wake, woke up to the fact that he was Buddha consciousness. And we are all to do that. To wake up to our Jesus within us. This is blasphemy in the normal way of thinking in Christianity, but it's the very essence of narcissism and of the Thomas Gospel. And heaven, that desired goal of most people is within us? Heaven and hell are within us. And all the gods are within us. This is the great realization of the Upanishads of India already in the 9th century BC. All the gods, all the heavens, all the worlds are within us. They are magnified dreams. And what dreams are are manifestations in image form of the energies of the body
and conflict with each other. And that's all myth is. Myth is a manifestation in symbolic images, metaphorical images of the energies within us, moved by the organs of the body in conflict with each other. This organ wants. This organ wants. This, the brain is one of the organ. So when we dream or we're fishing in some vast ocean of mythology that we have? It goes down and down and down. And you can get all mixed up with complexes, you know, things like that, but you're standing on the, the Lord of the Abyss really. There's a Polynesian saying that really comes to my mind, standing on a whale, fishing for menos. We are standing on a whale. The ground of being is the ground of our being. And outward turn, we see all these little problems here, but inward we are the source of them all. That's the big mystical teaching. You've seen what's happened to primitive
societies that are unsettled by white men's civilization. They go to pieces. They disintegrate. They succumb to vice and disease. And isn't that the same thing that's been happening to us since our myth begin to disappear? Absolutely it is. Isn't that why conservative religious folk today are calling for a return to the old time religion? That's right. I understand their yearning. In my youth I had fixed stars. They comforted me with their permanence. They gave me a known horizon. They told me that there's a loving, kind, and just father out there looking down on me, ready to receive me, thinking of my concerns all the time. Now science, medicine, has made it a house cleaning of belief. And I wonder what happens to children who don't have that fixed star, that known horizon, those myths to sustain them. All they have to do is read newspaper. It's a mess. But what the myth has to provide, I mean just on this immediate level of life instruction,
the pedagogical aspect it made, it has to give life models. And the models have to be appropriate to the possibilities of the time in which you're living. And our time has changed and changed and changed and continues to change so fast that what was proper 50 years ago is not proper today. So the virtues of the past are the vices of today. And the many of what were thought to be the vices of the past are the necessities of today. And the moral order has to catch up with the moral necessities of actual life in time here and now. And that's what it's not doing. And that's why it's ridiculous to go back to the old time religion. Friend of mine composed the song based on the old time religion. Give me the old time religion. Give me a letter to worship Zarathustra just the way we used to. And Zarathustra boosts. He's good enough for me. Let us worship Gaffordite. She's beautiful but flighty. She doesn't wear a nighty, but she's
good enough for me. And when you go back to the old time religion, you're doing something like that. It belongs to another age, another people, another set of human values, another universe. So the old period of the Old Testament, no one had any ideas. The world was a little three-layer cake and then the world consisted of something a few hundred miles around the Near Eastern centers there. No one ever heard of the Aztecs, you know, or the Chinese even. And so those whole peoples were not considered even as part of the problem to be dealt with the world changes. Then the religion has to be transformed. But it seems to me that is what we are in fact doing here. That's in fact what we better do. But my notion of what the real horror today is what you see in Beirut, where you have the three great Western religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And because the three of them have three different names for the same biblical God, they can't get on together. They're stuck
with their metaphor and don't realize it's reference. So each needs a new myth? Each needs its own myth all the way. Love the eye enemy, you know? Open up. Don't judge. Given what you know about human beings, is it conceivable to you that there is a port of wisdom beyond the conflicts of truth and illusion by which our lives can be put back together again that we develop new models? It's in the religions. All religions are true for their time. If you can find what the truth is and separate it from the temporal inflection, just bring your same old religion into a new set of metaphors and you've got it. Do you see some new metaphors emerging in the modern medium for the old universal truths that you've talked about, the old story? Well, I think that the Star Wars is a valid mythological perspective and the problem of, is the machine and the state is a machine?
Is the machine going to crush humanity or serve humanity? And humanity comes not from the machine but from the heart. Luke, help me take this mask off. What you'll die? I think it was in a return of the Jedi when Skywalker unmasks his father. The father had been playing one of these machine roles, a state role. He was the uniform, you know? And the removal of that mask was an undeveloped man that was kind of a worm by being executive of a system. One is not developing one's humanity. I think that George Lucas really did a beautiful thing there. The idea of a machine is the idea that we want the world to be made in our image and what we think the world ought to be.
Well, the first time anybody made a tool, I mean taking a stone and a chipping it so you can handle, that's the beginning of a machine. It's turning out in nature into your service. But then there comes a time when it begins to dictate to you. I'm having a bit of this trouble with my computer, just bought a couple of months ago and I can't help thinking of it as having a personality there because it talks back and it behaves in a whimsical way and all of that. So I'm personifying that machine. To me, that machine is almost alive. I could mythologize that, don't think. There was a wonderful story about I think President Eisenhower when the computer was first being built. You remember that story? I know when they do a room full of computers and he puts a question to these machines, is there a god and they all start up and there's all those lights flashing and wheels turning and things like that. And after about
10 minutes of that kind of thing, a voice comes forth and the voice says, now there is. Well, I bought this wonderful machine. I be a machine and it's there and I'm rather an authority on gods. So I identified the god and it teach me an Old Testament god with a lot of rules and no mercy. You were unforgiving. You catch you picking up sticks on Saturday and you're out that's all. But isn't it possible to develop toward the computer, the computer you're wrestling with at this very moment? Isn't it possible to develop the same kind of attitude of the Pony Chieftain who said that in the legends of his people, all things speak of tarar, all things speak of god. It wasn't a special privileged revelation. God is everywhere in His works, including the computers. Well, indeed so. I mean, the miracle of what happens on that screen, you know. Have you ever looked inside one of those things? No, you can't believe it. It's a whole hierarchy
of angels, all on slats and those little tubes, those are miracles. Those are miracles. They are. One can feel a sense of all. Well, I've had a revelation from my computer about mythology, though. You buy a certain software and there's a whole set of signals that lead to the achievement of your aim, you know. And once you've said it, so let's say, DW3, if you begin fooling around with signals that belong to another system, they just won't work. That's all. You have a system there, a code, a determined code that requires you to use certain terms. Now, similarly in mythology, each religion is a kind of software that has its own set of signals and will work. It'll work, but suppose you've chosen this one. Now, if a person is really involved in a religion and really building his life on it, he'd better stay with the software than he's got. But a chap,
like myself, who likes to play with the software, I can run around, but I probably will never have an experience comparable to that of a saint. But do you think that the machine is inventing new myths for us or that we, with the machine, are inventing new myths? Is the machine becoming? No, the myth has to be called the machine, just as the old myths incorporated the tools that people used. The forms of the tools and so forth are associated with power systems that are involved in the culture. We have not a mythology that incorporates these. The new powers are being, so to say, surprisingly announced to us by what the machines can do. We can't have a mythology for a long, long time to come. Things are changing too fast. The environment which we living is changing too fast for it to become mythologized. You must realize. How do we live without myths then? Well, we're doing it. The individual has to find the aspect of myth that has to do with the
conduct of his life. There are a number of services that myths serve. The basic one is opening the world to the dimension of mystery. If you lose that, you don't have a mythology to realize the mystery that underlies all forms. But then there comes the cosmological aspect of myth, seeing that mystery as manifests through all things. So the universe becomes, as it were, a holy picture. You are always addressed to the transcendent mystery through that. But then there's another function, and that's the sociological one, of validating and maintaining a certain society. That is the side of the thing that has taken over in our world. What do you mean? Ethical laws. The laws of life in the society. All of Yahweh's pages and pages and pages of what kind of close to where, how to behave to each other, and all that. You see in
terms of the values of this particular society. But then there's a fourth function of myth, and this is the one that I think today everyone must try to relate to. That's the pedagogical function. How to live a human lifetime under any circumstances. Myth can tell you that. There's a wonderful story in one of the Upanishads, the Brahma-Vivatar Upanishad, of Indra. This God who is the counterpart really of Yahweh, he is the God patron of a certain people and of historical life and time, with all kinds of rules for people to live by and that sort of thing. And there was a time when a great monster named Vrittra had closed all the waters of the earth, and so there was a drought, a terrible drought, and the world was in very bad condition. Well, it took this God Indra quite a while to realize that he had a box of thunderbolts there, and all he had to do was drop a thunderbolt in Vrittra and that blowing up. And when he did that,
of course, he blew Vrittra up and the waters flowed and the world was refreshed, and he said, what a great boy am I. So thinking what a great boy am I, he goes up to the Cosmic Mountain, which is the central mountain of the world, and so he decided he would build a new world up there, a new city, and particularly his palace was going to be a palace worthy of such as he. So he calls from Vishva Karmam, the main carpenter of the gods, and gives him the assignment to build this palace. So Vishva Karmam goes to work on a very quick order. He gets the palace into pretty good condition. And Indra comes, but every time Indra arrived, he had bigger ideas about how big and grandiose the palace should be. And finally, Vishva Karmam says, my God, she says, we're both immortal and there's no end to his desires. I'm caught for life. So he decided to go to Brahma known as the Creator and complain. Well, now Brahma sits on a lotus. This is the symbol of divine energy and divine grace, and the lotus grows from the navel of Vishnu, who is the sleeping
god, whose dream is the universe. So here's Brahma on his lotus, and Vishva Karmam comes to the edge of the great lotus pond of the universe, and down he tells his story. Brahma says, you go home, he says, I'll fix this up. So next morning, at the gate of the palace that's being built, there appears a beautiful blue black boy with a lot of children around him just in admiration of his beauty. So Indra comes to the boy, and Indra is thrown. He's the King God. He says, young man, welcome, and what brings you to my palace? Well, says the boy with a voice like thunder rolling on the horizon. I've been told that you're building such a palace as no Indra before you ever built, and he said, I've surveyed the grounds and looked things over. It seems this is quite
true. No Indra before you has ever built such a palace. Well, Indra says, Indra's before me, young man, what are you talking about? The boy says, Indra's before you. He says, I have seen them come and go, come and go. He said, just think. Vishnu sleeps in the cosmic ocean, the lotus of a universe grows from his devil. On there sits Brahma, the creator, Brahma opens his eyes, a world comes into being, governed by an Indra, closes his eyes, the world goes out of being, opens his eyes, the world comes into being, closes his eyes, and the life of a Brahma is 432,000 years, and he dies. The lotus goes back, another lotus, another Brahma. Then, think of the galaxies beyond galaxies in infinite space, each
a lotus with the Brahma city on it, opening his eyes, closing his eyes with Indra's, there may be wise men in your court who would volunteer to count the drops of water in the oceans of the world or the grains of sand on the beaches, but no one would count those Brahma's, let alone those Indra's. And while he's talking, there comes in parade across the floor of the palace, an army of ants in perfect range, and the boy laughs when he sees them, and Indra's hair goes up in these things, he says to the boy, why do you laugh? And the boy says, don't ask unless you are willing to be hurt, and Indra says, I ask, teach the boy says, former Indra's all. Through many lifetimes they rise from the lowest condition spiritually to highest illumination, and then they drop their thunderbolt in
vitra, and they think, what a good boy am I, and down they go again. And then Indra sits there on the throne, and he's completely disillusioned, completely shot, and he thinks, let's quit the building of this palace, he calls Vishva Kaman, says, you're dismissed, you don't have to, so Vishva Kaman got his intention, he's dismissed from the job, there's no more house building going on, and Indra decides, I'm going out and be a yogi and just meditate on the lotus feet of Vishnu. But he has a beautiful queen named Indraani, and when Indraani is this, she goes to the priest, the chaplain of the gods, and she says, now he's got this idea in his head, he's going out to become a yogi. Well says the Brahman, come in with me darling, and we'll sit down and I'll fix this up. So he talks to Indra, they come in, they sit down before the king's throne,
and he tells him, now I wrote a book for you some years ago on the art of politics. You are in the position of the king, you are the position of the king of gods, you are manifestation of the mystery of Brahman in the field of time, this is a high privilege, appreciate it, honor it, and deal with life as though you were what you really are. And with this set of instructions, Indra gives up his idea of Goliath and going in. A yogi and finds that in life he can represent the eternal in the way of a symbol, you might say, of the Brahman and the ultimate truth. So each of us is in a way the Indra of his own life, and you can make a choice either to go out and in the forest and meditate and throw it all off, or stay in the world and in the life either of your job, which is the bekingly job of the politics and the achievement, and as well in the love,
life with your wife and family, you are realizing the truth. Now this is a very nice myth, it seems to me. Do we ever know the truth? Do we ever find it? Well, each person can have his own depth experience and some conviction of being in touch with his own such ananda, his own being true consciousness and true bliss. But the religious people tell us we really won't experience it till we go to heaven, you know, till you die. I believe in having as much as you can of this experience while you're alive. My bliss is now. And I think in heaven you'll be having such a marvelous time looking at God that you won't get your own experience at all. That's not the place to have it, here's the place to have the experience. Here and now. Here and now.
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Series
Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth
Episode Number
102
Episode
The Message of the Myth
Contributing Organization
Public Affairs Television & Doctoroff Media Group (New York, New York)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip-5658a634ffe
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Description
Episode Description
THE MESSAGE OF THE MYTH: Bill Moyers and mythologist Joseph Campbell compare creation myths from the Bible and other sources. The two discuss how religions and mythologies need to change with time in order to maintain their relevance in people's lives. Part 2 of 6
Episode Description
Award(s) won: EMMY Award-Special Classification for Outstanding News and Documentary Program Achievement, EMMY Nomination Outstanding Achievement in a Craft-Music, Silver Baton Award-Alfred I. duPont Columbia University
Series Description
In THE POWER OF MYTH, mythologist and storyteller Joseph Campbell joins Bill Moyers to explore what enduring myths can tell us about our lives. In each episode Moyers and Campbell focus on a character or theme found in cultural and religious mythologies. Campbell argues that these timeless archetypes continue to have a powerful influence on the choices we make and the ways we live.
Broadcast Date
1988-05-30
Asset type
Episode
Genres
Talk Show
Rights
Copyright Holder: Apostrophe S Productions, Inc.
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:57:27;42
Credits
: Grubin, David
: Sinsel, Douglas P.
Associate Producer: Aronow, Vera
Editor: Bhargava, Girish
Editor: Feinstein, Leonard
Editor: Moyers, Bill
Executive Producer: Perlmutter, Alvin H.
Executive Producer: Konner, Joan
Producer: Tatge, Catherine
AAPB Contributor Holdings
Public Affairs Television & Doctoroff Media Group
Identifier: cpb-aacip-c7c1b5e6f3c (Filename)
Format: LTO-5
If you have a copy of this asset and would like us to add it to our catalog, please contact us.
Citations
Chicago: “Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth; 102; The Message of the Myth,” 1988-05-30, Public Affairs Television & Doctoroff Media Group, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed April 27, 2025, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-5658a634ffe.
MLA: “Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth; 102; The Message of the Myth.” 1988-05-30. Public Affairs Television & Doctoroff Media Group, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. April 27, 2025. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-5658a634ffe>.
APA: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth; 102; The Message of the Myth. Boston, MA: Public Affairs Television & Doctoroff Media Group, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-5658a634ffe