New Mexico in Focus; 1010; Rebroadcast: Ron Hamm, Fernanda Santos / and The Line

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO INFOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION AND THE NELITTA E. WALKER FUND FOR KNME-TV, THE KNME-TV ENDOWMENT FUND AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU THE. >> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS, WE HEAR HOW ONE 20TH CENTURY WRITER COVERED THE PLACE WE NOW CALL HOME. >> HE MADE THE STATEMENT, WHICH IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE LITTLE QUOTES, THAT IN NEW MEXICO, HISTORY DOESN'T TAKE PLACE UNDER A ROOF. >> AND JOURNALIST FERNANDA SANTOS TALKS ABOUT THE DANGERS FIREFIGHTING ACROSS THE WEST. >> NEW MEXICO INFOCUS STARTS NOW. THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEW MEXICO INFOCUS THIS WEEK. LATER THIS HOUR LINE THE LINE WILL TALK ABOUT CONTROVERSIES AROUND THE FIESTAS IN SANTA FE ALSO DISCUSS PROPOSED BALLOT INITIATIVES IN ALBUQUERQUE, BUT FIRST, WE START THE LINE THIS WEEK WITH A CLOSER LOOK AT CURRENT STATE BUDGET CRISIS. >> THIS WEEK WE LEARN THAT THE

STATE BUDGET SHORTFALL IS LARGER THAN PREVIOUSLY REPORTED. LAWMAKERS REPORT THE BUDGET FOR THE CURRENT FISCAL YEAR THAT IS ABOUT, ABOUT, ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS LARGER THAN WHAT IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ EXPECTED TO CALL THE LEGISLATURE INTO SPECIAL SESSION THIS TO ADDRESS THAT BUDGET. WHERE SHOULD LAWMAKERS CUT THE BUDGET. IS THERE A PROGRAM THAT YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT IN THIS DEBATE, GET IN TOUCH WITH US HERE AT NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.ORG AND TELL US WHAT YOU THINK. ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER OF COURSE. LINE OPINION PANELISTS ARE READY TO GO ON THIS ONE THIS WEEK. I AM JOINED BY TOM GARRITY, FROM THE GARRITY GROUP PR; JANICE-ARNOLD JONES FORMER REPUBLICAN STATE REPRESENTATIVE; LAURA SANCHEZ-RIVET ATTORNEY AT ON CUDDY & MCCARTHY, LLP; AND JULIAN ANN GRIMM EDITOR OF THE SANTA FE REPORTER. TOM, AVERAGE NEW MEXICANS, THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION FROM THE PRODUCTION CREW. WHAT DO YOU THINK AVERAGE NEW MEXICAN IN FOLLOWING THIS BUDGET, WHEN IT COMES TO FOLLOWING THIS BUDGET STORY, NEED TO KNOW? IS IT PANIC? IS IT AS LARRANAGA SAID A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? HOW DO WE TAKE THIS?

>> I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH REPRESENTATIVE LARRANAGA, OF NEW MEXICO CAN KIND OF SCRATCH YOUR HEAD AND SAY WHAT THE HECK JUST HAPPENED? HOW DO YOU BLOW ONE BILLION-DOLLARS IN THAT SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME AND NOBODY HAS -- THERE IS NO CHECKS AND BALANCES. THERE ARE TWO QUESTIONS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE IN THE MIND OF TYPICAL NEW MEXICANS. HOW DID WE GET SO OFF TRACK SO QUICKLY, WHICH CAN BE ATTRIBUTED TO GOVERNMENT AND MAINLY OIL AND GAS, BUT, TWO, WHAT DO YOU DO FROM THIS POINT FORWARD? I THINK NOW THE QUESTION IS, AFTER WE GET OVER THE SHOCK OF THE HANGOVER AND GOING, OH MY GOSH, HOW DO YOU MOVE THAT TO THE CONVERSATION OF WANTS AND NEEDS. WHAT DO WE WANT IN GOVERNMENT? WHAT DO WE NEED FROM GOVERNMENT. THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT IS GOING TO TAKE UP A LOT OF CONVERSATION AS WE LEAD INTO THE SPECIAL SESSION, WHICH IS LONG OVERDUE AND THEN THE REGULAR LEGISLATIVE SESSION IN 2017. >> LAURA, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT A LITTLE MORE DETAIL TO THE SPECIAL TOM JUST MENTIONED, IN

ESSENCE, THEY ARE PATCHING THE HOLE FROM THE LAST BUDGET CYCLE. WE ARE NOT GOING TO DEAL WITH THE JULY THIS YEAR CYCLE GOING TO 2017. THERE IS A WHOLE NOTHER WAGON FULL OF MONEY WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH. IS SORT OF THIS CATCHING UP FALLING BEHIND, CATCHING UP, FALLING BEHIND, HOW DO YOU GET A AHEAD OF THE CURVE? THAT IS MY QUESTION. WE CAN DO THIS UNTIL 2020, IF WE WANTED TO. >> ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS WE HAVE SUCH VOLATILITY IN OUR TAX THERE WAS AN ARTICLE THAT TALKED ABOUT THAT. BASICALLY HOW THERE HAS BEEN IN THE PAST 10 WHERE WE HAVE HAD SIGNIFICANT SHORTAGE OF PROJECTED REVENUES THAN WHAT WE EXPECTED FROM THE PREVIOUS YEAR, SO, THAT CREATES ALL KINDS OF VOLATILITY AND THEN WE HAVE EVERYTHING SORT OF ALL THE EGGS IN ONE BASKET WITH OIL AND GAS. LONG-TERM WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DIVERSIFY, BUT WE ARE SEEING THAT AND SORT OF DOING THAT WITH BABY STEPS INSTEAD OF TAKING THE PLUNGE TO REDO THE ENTIRE TAX SYSTEM WHICH I KNOW A

LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE CALLED FOR BUT NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DIVERSIFY THAT SO WE ARE NOT COMPLETELY BEHOLDING TO ONE INDUSTRY AND AS IT RISES AND FALLS, WE END UP DEALING WITH SHORTFALLS FROM THAT. I THINK ALSO, YOU KNOW, WITH REGARD TO THIS PARTICULAR PROBLEM, I STILL THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM TRYING TO GET EVERYBODY ON THE SAME PAGE TO HAVE A SPECIAL SESSION, YOU KNOW, WE'RE BASICALLY RIGHT AFTER LABOR DAY, THAT'S TRADITIONAL, YOU KNOW, TIME FOR CAMPAIGNING, THAT IS WHEN THE REAL CAMPAIGNING KICKS OFF. SO, EVEN THOUGH WE SEE THINGS HAPPENING BEFORE THAT, REALLY, YOU KNOW, THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD, SO TO SPEAK, AFTER LABOR DAY AND THAT IS THE WORST TIME TO TRY TO GET EVERYBODY TO COME TO TOGETHER FROM DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE AISLE. SO WE'LL HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING PEOPLE TO AGREE TO ANYTHING BEFORE THEY WALK INTO HALF DAY SESSION OR WHATEVER. >> PICK UP ON THE TAX THING. WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF POLITICOS SAYING THIS IS THE PROBLEM, WE'LL TALK ABOUT TAXES HERE IN A LITTLE BIT OR REVENUE ENHANCEMENTS, BUT JUST TAX LOOP HOLES FOR THE MOMENT.

HELP ME UNDERSTAND. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN SIT DOWN WITH ONE REGULAR SESSION AND FIX A TAX PROBLEM OR A TAX CODE. >> SURE YOU CAN. ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. IT IS JUST LIKE THE LFC WORKING ON THE BUDGET AND I'M CALLING OUT JASON HARPER, YOU'RE THE CHAIR OF TAX, LET'S GET TO IT. WHEN FRANKLIN JONES BACK IN THE DAY WHEN WE HAD TO REVENUE, NO SCHOOLS. AND IN ONE SESSION, THEY DID GO IN AND THAT IS THE GENESIS OF THE GROSS RECEIPTS TAX, BUT, WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO IT HAS OUTLIVED ITS USEFULNESS. IT IS TIME TO SIT DOWN BECAUSE YOU CANNOT GO IN AND PIECEMEAL THIS. IT IS TIME TO DO THE JOB. >> IS IT REALLY DOABLE? FOLKS WHO HAVE GOTTEN TAX BREAKS THEY ARE GOING TO FIGHT TO KEEP THEM. >> OF COURSE THEY ARE. >> CAN YOU ROLL IT BACK? >> IT IS NOT AS AWFUL AS IT SOUNDS. YOU MAY HAVE A SPECIAL TAX BREAK THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE AND YOU MAY LOSE SOME OF THAT, BUT YOU MAY NOT PAY AS MUCH IN ANOTHER AREA. I THINK YOU WILL FIND IF YOU REVISIT AND RESTRUCTURE

THE TAX CODE, THAT IT WILL BALANCE OUT. IF YOU'RE ONLY HERE IN NEW MEXICO BECAUSE YOU GET A VERY SPECIAL DEAL AND YOU HAVE THE RESTAURANT HERE WITH A SPECIAL DEAL AND THE ONE DOWN THE STREET DOESN'T GET THAT, I AM SORRY, YOU DON'T BELONG HERE. SO, YES, WE CAN DO THIS. AND IT IS TIME. >> GOOD JOB, LIKE THAT. IT IS TIME. IT IS TIME. YOU KNOW, BECAUSE AGAIN WE HAVE HAD COMMITTEES. I THINK YOU WERE ON YEARS AGO. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THIS FOR A LONG TIME. YOU SEE WHAT I AM SAYING? IS THAT GOING TO BE A ENOUGH TO GET US WHERE WE NEED TO BE IN CLOSING TAX LOOPHOLES. >> BASED ON THE PERFORMANCE OF THE LEGISLATURE AND THERE ARE HARD WORKING PEOPLE THERE TRYING TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION, BUT BASED ON WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THE TOP OF THE FOURTH FLOOR WITH THE REALLY OPTIMISTIC WE'LL SEE SOME SILVER BULLET. I DON'T THINK WE'LL SEE A CREATIVE SOLUTION. I HOPE WE DO. BUT ONE THING THAT IS

INTERESTING WITH THE VOLATILITY OF THE OIL AND GAS MARKETS, WHICH ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTTING US WHERE WE ARE TODAY, THERE HAVE BEEN EFFORTS TO CHANGE SOME OF THE REGULATIONS AROUND NATURAL GAS DEVELOPMENT WITH RESPECT TO FLARING, SO, YOU GOT THESE BIG, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPERS WHO ARE ALLOWING LIKE THE CHEAPER GAS TO BURN OFF. IF YOU DRIVE UP TO FARMINGTON, YOU LOOK OFF ON THE HORIZON, YOU SEE BIG FLARES AND THERE IS SOME STUDIES THAT SUGGEST THAT CAPTURING THAT GAS AND COLLECTING THE ROYALTIES ON THAT WOULD HAVE A REVENUE EFFECT. BUT YET YOU SEE THIS ADMINISTRATION AND YOU SEE, I THINK, SOME PEOPLE IN THE LEGISLATURE WHO ARE REALLY NOT WILLING TO EVEN PUT THAT ON THE TABLE. SO IT IS NOT GOING TO FIX THIS BILLION DOLLAR PROBLEM RIGHT AWAY BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE SORT OF SACRED COWS, OFF THE TABLE, THAT PROBABLY NEED TO COME BACK AND GET TALKED ABOUT. >> JULIA, THE CLOUD -- THE GOVERNOR IS SAYING SHE WANTS 5% CUTS ACROSS THE BOARD; THAT ON TOP OF THINGS TOO. MY QUESTION TO THE WHOLE TABLE IS, DO WE SEE A LIGHT AT THE END

OF THE TUNNEL ON BALANCING THE BUDGET BY DOING THESE THINGS WITHOUT TAXES GOING UP? IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE? >> TOM, START WITH YOU. >> YEAH, I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE OR IT IS PLAUSIBLE. POSSIBLE IS A WHOLE OTHER ISSUE. IN ORDER FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, THERE HAS TO BE OPEN DEBATE AND DISCUSSION TO SAY HERE IS WHAT WE NEED AND WANT, BACK TO THE WANTS AND NEEDS, BUT RIGHT NOW WITH WHAT WOULD APPEAR TO BE, ANYWAY, BEHIND THE SCENES CLOSED DOOR CONVERSATIONS, YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT CERTAIN PARTIES ARE SAYING, HERE IS WHAT WE FEEL IS IMPORTANT. >> JUST TO JUMP IN HERE. WE NEED ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT HAVE GOT SOME COJONES. WE ARE IN TROUBLE, WE HAVE SPENT 610,000,000 OUT OF RESERVES. WE ARE NEGATIVE. THAT IS THE LOSS THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE, THAT YOU REALLY NEED TO HAVE A RESERVE AND TO ASK OUR LEGISLATURE TO MEET IN SECRET, WE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT LIKE THIS,

BUT WE HAVE A PROCESS. IT IS CALLED LEGISLATIVE FINANCE COMMITTEE AND IT IS TIME TO CALL THEM INTO A SPECIAL MEETING AND SAY, WE ARE GOING TO PROPOSE A BUDGET AND DO THE FIX. AND THEY MEET THREE TO FOUR DAYS ON A REGULAR BASIS. I AM NOT SAYING YOU GET IT DONE IN THREE TO FOUR DAYS. DO IT IN SECRET. WE ARE GOING TO GIVE UP THINGS AND WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE IT IN ORDER TO GET THINGS WE WANT. QUIGLEY WAS RIGHT, YOU HAVE TO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS. I AM SORRY, LAURA. >> THE PAIN OF CUTS, BACK TO PAIN OF CUTS VERSUS PAIN OF REVENUE ENHANCEMENT. WHICH IS THE EASY WAY TO GO, MORE SELLABLE POLITICALLY, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. HOW DO WE DO THIS, BECAUSE THE 5% CUTS ARE GOING TO HURT. AND THEY CANNOT BE THE LAST ONES IF WE ARE GOING TO BALANCE THE BUDGET JUST BY CUTTING. WHERE DO WE END UP IF WE JUST CUT WITHOUT REVENUE ENHANCEMENT? >> I DON'T SEE HOW YOU GET IT DONE WITHOUT LOOKING AT BOTH SIDES OF THAT LEDGER. YOU HAVE TO HAVE EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE, FIGURE OUT WHAT MAKES

SENSE IN TERMS OF PRIORITIES FOR THE STATE. WHAT MAKES ME NERVOUS IS CUTTING AT THE MOST VULNERABLE, PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED IT THE MOST, MEDICAID, ANY OTHER KIND OF STATE AID PROGRAMS, WHICH ARE A LARGE PART OF THE BUDGET AS WELL. SALARIES ARE A BIG PART OF THE BUDGET. WE ALREADY HAVE BASICALLY POSITIONS BEING FROZEN AND NOT REFILLED WHICH MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING IN TERMS OF GETTING RIGHT CUSTOMER SERVICE FROM OUR STATE AGENCIES, BUT I DO THINK THAT BOTH SIDES HAVE TO BE ON THE TABLE AND THERE HAS TO BE TOUGH DECISIONS MADE WHICH MAKES IT, I THINK, POLITICALLY REALLY DIFFICULT BECAUSE IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR. NOBODY WANTS TO HAVE THAT HANGING AROUND THEIR NECK THAT THEY VOTED BEFORE THE ELECTION TO RAISE TAXES. HOW ELSE DO YOU GET IT DONE? >> THERE IS A WAY TO GET IT DONE AND THAT IS THROUGH ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. I REMEMBER THE CONVERSATIONS SIX YEARS AGO WAS, OH MY GOSH, WE'RE TOO DEPENDENT ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. NOW THE CONVERSATION IS, OH MY GOSH, WE'RE TOO DEPENDENT

ON THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY. WELL, HELLO, THOSE ARE THE TWO INDUSTRIES THAT ARE MOST PROMINENT HERE. WHAT ABOUT GROWING THE PRIVATE SECTOR? >> THAT IS A LONG-TERM SOLUTION. >> VERY LONG-TERM SOLUTION. >> THAT IS NOT GOING TO FIX THE CURRENT BUDGET SHORTFALL. >> IF SOMEBODY WAS ON THE WATCH TO MAKE SURE WE WERE TRYING TO BE AT COMPETITIVE AS WE COULD TO MAXIMUM THE 7% CUT OR TAX INCENTIVE, THEN WE WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE IN THIS SITUATION, BUT INSTEAD, YOU HAVE A LOT OF BUSINESS THAT IS GOING ELSEWHERE INSTEAD OF HEAR IN NEW MEXICO. >> INTERESTING. >> THERE IS ONE OTHER LITTLE THING TOO, IF YOU CUT TOO MUCH IN TERMS OF PERSONNEL, THEN ON THE OPPOSITE HAPPENS, INSPECTIONS DON'T GET DONE, PEOPLE WORK UNDER THE TABLE, SO WE'RE MISSING ALL THAT REVENUE, YOUR TAX DEPARTMENT, IF YOU'RE NOT CALLING PEOPLE BACK TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS, THEY EVENTUALLY THROW UP THEIR HANDS AND SAY, I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. >> SECRETARY JOHN BARELA HAS DECIDED TO LEAVE. HE IS GOING TO DO SOMETHING IN TEXAS, JULIE ANN, YOU KNOW, WE

NEED TO HAVE A LITTLE TALK ABOUT HIS PERFORMANCE AND WHAT HE DID OR DID NOT DO. GIVE ME YOUR SENSE OF HIM. >> IT IS INTERESTING THAT THE GOVERNOR PUT OUT A STATEMENT, REALLY GLOWING STATEMENT, ABOUT JOHN BARELA'S PERFORMANCE AND HOW HIS VISION WAS GOING TO CONTINUE. AND I WAS ALMOST, LIKE, DID SHE WAKE UP ON A DIFFERENT PLANET THIS MORNING? I GOT THE BUZZ WORD DIVERSITY, YOU KNOW, WAS IN HER STATEMENT. WHAT I THOUGHT WAS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT JOHN BARELA IS GOING TO WORK AT A BORDER BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, THAT IS I THINK HEADQUARTERED IN TEXAS AND WORKS ON THE CROSS BORDER ISSUE WHICH IS ONE THING THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS FOUGHT. THEY SAID IMMIGRANTS DON'T HAVE A PLACE AND THEY ARE IGNORING THE ECONOMIC BENEFIT OF SUPPORTING THE IMMIGRANT WORK FORCE. THEY FOUGHT THEM ON DRIVER'S LICENSES. THE OTHER THING THAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THE PERSON WHO LEFT THAT COMPANY AND CREATED A VACANCY FOR JOHN

WENT TO WORK IN THE ALTERNATIVE INURING SECTOR. AND I THINK THAT THAT IS A GOOD THING TO OBSERVE AS WELL, WE HAVE NOT DONE AS MUCH WITH ADVANCING ALTERNATIVE ENERGY. THIS ADMINISTRATION DEFUNDED THE OVERSIGHT FOR THAT TRANSITION LINE IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THAT, BUT I THINK THAT IS ANOTHER AREA WE COULD WORK HARDER ON. >> WHAT GRADE WOULD YOU GIVE MR. BARELA? >> WHAT GRADE? I AM NOT INTO THAT WHOLE NUMBER, LETTER GRADE THING. YOU DEAL WITH FACTS. [MULTIPLE VOICES.] >> WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HIS PERFORMANCE? >> JOHN IS ONE OF THE NICEST GUYS YOU'RE EVER GOING TO MEET. I SORT OF RESENT THE NUMBERS ON EXPORT. WHILE WE DID EXPORT MORE, HOW MUCH OF THAT WAS PRODUCED IN NEW MEXICO? AND I THINK THE NUMBER IS DOWN LIKE 2%. SO, THAT WAS A PASS THROUGH. I APPRECIATE THE ACTIVITY BUT WAS THAT REALLY A WIN FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO? THE OTHER THING THAT I NOTICED

ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT IS IT NEVER WAS FULLY STAFFED. AND, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IS TOUGH ENOUGH AS IT IS AND SO, YOU CAN'T BE TOO THIN. IF YOU'RE TOO THIN, THEN YOU CAN'T DO THE JOB. SO, GIVE HIM AT BEST A B. >> OKAY. WHAT DO YOU THINK, LAURA. HIS PERFORMANCE, WHAT HAS HE DONE FOR US, AS THEY SAY. >> ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SORT OF CUTTING NUMBERS TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE GOOD, HIS WEBSITE SAID THAT HE, UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP, THAT UNEMPLOYMENT WENT DOWN TO 2.5% BUT ACTUALLY IT IS UP 6.4% RIGHT NOW AND MAKES US THE THIRD WORST IN THE COUNTRY BEHIND ALASKA AT 6.7 AND NEVADA AT 6.5 AND PUERTO RICO WHICH IS SADLY 11.4. BUT IN TERMS OF STATES, WE ARE THE THIRD WORST IN THE COUNTRY. SO, TO SAY IT WENT DOWN 2.5% SOUNDS GREAT BUT COMPARED TO OTHER STATES IN OUR REGION, ESPECIALLY, THEY REALLY ARE NOT DOING AS MUCH. HE DID WORK ON REVAMPING LEDA, I THINK CLAWBACK IS AN IMPORTANT AREA THAT PEOPLE WANTED

TO SEE, MAKE SURE THAT CLAWBACKS WERE A PART OF THAT. TO HIS CREDIT, HE DID WORK ON SOME OF THAT, BUT IN TERMS OF GETTING OUT THERE AND ATTRACTING MORE BUSINESS AND DOING THE KIND OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT THAT I THINK TOM WAS TALKING ABOUT LONG-TERM, I DON'T SEE IT. FOR ME, SORT OF THE POLITICAL PAC I SEE AT THIS TIME RIGHT NOW, IN THE GOVERNOR'S ADMINISTRATION AS A TIME FOR CABINET MEMBERS TO REALLY LOOK AT WHAT IS NEXT. YOU DON'T WANT TO BE THE LAST GUY HANGING ON THE 11TH HOUR OF AN ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE THAT MEANS EVERYBODY ELSE HIRED YOU. IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE PEOPLE ARE LEAVING RIGHT NOW. >> I GET IN A LITTLE BIT OF TROUBLE MYSELF WHEN I ACTUALLY PROPOSED AT THIS TABLE, AFTER THE GOVERNOR'S FIRST TERM, THAT SHE SHOULD LET HIM GO AND BRING IN A NEW ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT SECRETARY TO SIGNAL TO THE MARKETS THAT SHE IS SERIOUS ABOUT WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, A SECOND AGO, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? SHE DIDN'T MAKE THAT CHANGE. I STILL STAND ON THAT YOU BUT YOUR SENSE OF HIS PERFORMANCE. >> I THINK SHORT ANSWER, IF YOU'RE IN SANTA TERESA,

HE GETS AN A PLUS. FOR THE REST OF THE STATE, IT NEEDS IMPROVEMENT. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YEAH, HE HAS, MAYBE HIS TEAM WASN'T FULLY STAFFED BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THE NEW MEXICO PARTNERSHIP, THE ALBUQUERQUE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, YOU HAVE LEDA, ALL THESE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS. AS A LEADER, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO COME IN AND COORDINATE ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT ENTITIES FOR THE GOOD OF THE STATE AND IT JUST -- IF IT IS HAPPENING, THEN I HAVEN'T SEEN IT. >> I HAVEN'T EITHER. WHEN WE COME BACK WE'LL DISCUSS THE MOST RECENT CONTROVERSY >> I THINK ANY TIME YOU CELEBRATE GENOCIDE, IT IS A PROBLEM AND THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET AND INDIGENT COMMUNITIES IT IS PRESENTED AS A CELEBRATION WITHOUT ANY RECOGNITION OF WHAT ACTUALLY >> THE MONSOON RAINS FINALLY

ARRIVED IN NEW MEXICO THIS SUMMER BUT WE DID SEE SOME SIGNIFICANT FIRES IN THE REGION IN 2016. THE DOG HEAD FIRE IN MANZANO MOUNTAINS BURNED NEARLY 18,000 ACERS THIS SUMMER, INCLUDING 12 RESIDENCES AND 44 OTHER STRUCTURES. IN A 2013 FIRE IN ARIZONA, 19 MEMBERS OF THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOT SHOTS PERISHED WHILE FIGHTING ANOTHER FIRE. OUR CORRESPONDENT MEGAN KAMERICK SAT DOWN WITH FERNANDA SANTOS TO TALK ABOUT HER BOOK FIRE LINE WHICH DELVES INTO THAT DEADLY EVENT. >> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. >> SO, WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS STORY THAT STUCK WITH YOU THAT YOU WANTED TO DIVE IN BEYOND NEWS STORIES THAT YOU USUALLY WRITE? >> IT IS ALL THE QUESTIONS THAT I HAD WHEN REPORTING ON THE STORY FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT I COULDN'T ANSWER. I NEEDED MORE TIME TO UNDERSTAND I NEED MORE TIME TO UNDERSTAND, WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO FIGHT WILDFIRES. AND I NEEDED TO LEARN ABOUT THESE GUYS, WHO I WAS WRITING

ABOUT BUT KNEW VERY, VERY LITTLE ABOUT AND I THOUGHT THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT I COULD SATISFY MY CURIOSITY WAS TO PLUNGE HEAD FIRST INTO THIS PROJECT, YOU KNOW, WHICH BECAME THE BOOK THAT I WROTE. >> SO, TALK ABOUT THE HOT SHOT CREWS. WHAT ROLE DO THEY PLAY IN WILDFIRE FIGHTING. WHO ARE HOT SHOTS. >> WELL, FIRST THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT UNLIKE A CITY FIRE WHERE YOU ROLL IN IN A TRUCK AND THEN YOU HAVE A HYDRANT OR TANKER TRUCK WITH WATER AND YOU CONNECT A HOSE TO IT AND DUMP WATER ON THE FIRE, WILDFIRES ARE GENERALLY FOUGHT NOT WITH WATER, BUT WITH HAND TOOLS. SO YOU HAVE WHAT IS KNOWN AS HAND CREWS. THEY A GROUP GENERALLY OF 20 MEN AND WOMEN WHO USE CONSTRUCTION, TOOLS, LANDSCAPING TOOLS, SHOVELS, PICKS, AXES, CHAINSAWS AND THEIR GOAL IS TO OPEN THESE FIRE LINES IN THE WILD AND THAT IS A WIDE TRAIL DEVOID OF ANYTHING THAT BURNS INCLUDING THE VEGETATION AND THERE IS A HIERARCHY ON THESE CREWS. HOT SHOTS ARE THE TOP OF THE

HIERARCHY, AND THEY ARE THE ONES THAT WORK CLOSER TO THE FLAMES. THEY HAVE THE RISKIEST AND MOST DIFFICULT TASKS AND ARE THE MOST TRAINED, THE MOST EQUIPPED TO FACE THESE FIRES. >> THEY ARE HIKING INTO THESE PLACES, WITH HEAVY PACKS, CARRY THEIR OWN WATER, LIKE 100 PLUS DEGREES. IT IS BRUTAL WORK. >> IT IS INCREDIBLY BRUTAL NOT JUST ON THE BODY BUT IT IS MENTALLY A CHALLENGE. THEY WORK 16 HOURS DAY FOR 14 DAYS STRAIGHT AND THEN THEY HAVE TWO MANDATORY DAYS OFF. SO THE BATTLE IS, HIKE IN JUST TO GET TO YOUR WORK PLACE, SOMETIMES TWO, THREE HOURS, THROUGH VERY DIFFICULT TERRAIN INTO IN THE HEAT, AS YOU MENTION. THEY GET THERE AND START TO WORK. AT END OF THE WORK DAY, THROUGHOUT THE DAY, THEY MIGHT FEEL TIRED, THEY MIGHT FEEL DIZZY FROM THE HEAT, THEY MIGHT FEEL CRAMPY BUT THEY HAVE TO KEEP GOING, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A JOB TO PERFORM AND THIS IS A JOB

DONE BY A TEAM, SO IT IS NOT LIKE ONE OF THEM CAN COAST WHILE THE 19 OTHER WORK. NO, THEY ALL HAVE TO DO THEIR ROLE, BECAUSE IF THE GUY AHEAD ON THE LINE IS NOT DOING IT RIGHT, THEN THE GUY BEHIND IT WON'T BE ABLE TO DO IT AS WELL AND THEN THAT CAUSES A DELAY FOR THE WHOLE TEAM. SO, YOU KNOW, IT IS A JOB NOT FOR EVERYBODY. IT IS ALMOST LIKE BEING A SOLDIER. YOU KIND OF HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN KIND OF PERSON TO FIT THAT ROLE. >> WHAT WAS DIFFERENT ABOUT THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOT SHOTS DESPITE EVERYTHING YOU SAID, INCREDIBLY COMPETITIVE TO GET INTO THEM. >> WELL, THAT CREW WAS -- SO, HOT SHOT CREWS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE, FOR THE MOST PART, FEDERAL CREWS. AT THE TIME THEY WERE FIGHTING THEIR LAST SEASON, 2013, THERE WERE ONLY TWO MUNICIPAL HOT SHOT CREWS IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY, BOTH BASED IN ARIZONA, ONE WAS GRANITE MOUNTAIN AND THE OTHER WAS THE IRON WOOD HOT SHOTS, PART OF A FIRE DISTRICT NEAR TUCSON. AND OF THESE TWO, ONLY GRANITE MOUNTAIN WORKED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF A STRUCTURAL FIRE

DEPARTMENT. SO THEY WERE PART OF A CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT, A DIVISION OF A CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT. AND, BECAUSE THEY HAD -- THEY WERE UNDER A CITY AND NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THEY HAD A LITTLE MORE FREEDOM TO HIRE. THEY COULD BE A LITTLE MORE CREATIVE AND MORE SELECTIVE IN THE TYPES OF PEOPLE THEY WANTED TO BE PART OF THEIR CREW. AND THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE CREW, LEADER OF THAT CREW, ERIC MARSH, WAS A RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC. AND HE HAD BEEN SOBER FOR 13 YEARS WHEN HE DIED, BUT THAT EXPERIENCE INFORMED THE WAY BY WHICH HE PICKED THE PEOPLE FOR HIS CREW. HE BELIEVED THAT HE HAD A ROLE NOT ONLY IN TRAINING THEM NOT ONLY TO BE GREAT FIREMEN BUT ALSO GREAT MEN AND WOMEN. AND HAD SOFT SPOT FOR PEOPLE HE FELT NEEDED A SECOND CHANCE. TO HIM, IT WAS ABOUT FINDING CERTAIN PEOPLE EVERY SEASON WHO HAD FALLEN DOWN, HAD PICKED THEMSELVES UP AND WERE READY TO SHINE AND DO VERY WELL, BUT NEEDED A GUIDING HAND TO TAKE THEM AND MAKE THEM EXERCISE THEIR POTENTIAL THAT WAS SORT

OF WHAT SET GRANITE MOUNTAIN APART FROM A LOT OF THE OTHER CREWS. >> THAT ALSO PLAYED A ROLE IN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NOT NECESSARY FULL EMPLOYEES OF THE CITY. THEY WERE CONTRACTORS AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE VACATION, HEALTH BENEFITS. ONE GUY YOU TALKED ABOUT HIM PRAYING FOR FIRE TO PAY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE. >> RIGHT. >> FOR HIS WIFE AND CHILD. >> YEAH, BILLY WARRENKE WAS A MARINE, HE HAD BEEN TO IRAQ, CAME BACK AND JOINED GRANITE MOUNTAIN IN 2013 AND HIS WIFE ROXANNE WAS PREGNANT WITH HER FIRST CHILD. AND THAT WAS HIS BIGGEST WORRY THAT HE NEEDED TO MAKE MONEY SO THAT HE COULD PAY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE WHEN HIS BABY WAS BORN. >> HE HAD TO GET OVERTIME? >> ROOKIES MADE $12.09 AT GRANITE MOUNTAIN AND, LOOK, THE WAY FIRE CREWS IN GENERAL ARE STRUCTURED BOTH IN MUNICIPAL CREWS AND FEDERAL CREWS, IS THAT YOU HAVE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE FULL-TIME SO THEY HAVE BENEFITS

ANY FULL-TIME EMPLOYEE HAS, PAID VACATION, PAID HOLIDAY, PAID SICK DAYS, BUT THEN YOU HAVE A GROUP OF THEM, A NUMBER OF THEM, WHO ARE SEASONAL. WE TALKED ABOUT THE FIRE SEASON SO THESE PEOPLE ARE HIRED GENERALLY SPEAKING FROM MID APRIL TO MID OCTOBER, AND THEN GO OUT AND DO OTHER JOBS. THAT WAS THE CASE WITH GRANITE MOUNTAIN AND THE DIFFERENCE WITH GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS THAT BECAUSE THEY WORKED FOR THE CITY OF PRESCOTT, ONCE THE FIRE SEASON WAS OVER, THE TEMPORARY, OF PRESCOTT, ONCE THE FIRE SEASON WAS OVER, THE TEMPORARY, THE SEASONAL EMPLOYEES, WOULD BE TERMINATED AND THEN A NEW CONTRACT WOULD START SHORTLY AFTER THAT, WHERE THEY WOULD WORK IN THE OFF SEASON CHIPPING BRUSH, THINNING FOREST AROUND THE COMMUNITY, SORT OF DOING THE PROTECTIVE WORK, THE DEFENSIVE WORK IN CASE A BIG FIRE BURNED ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF PRESCOTT WHICH IS SURROUNDED BY FOREST. THEY HAD A FULL-TIME WORKLOAD BUT DIDN'T QUALIFY FOR THE BENEFITS BECAUSE OF THE CHEWED CONTRACT TYPE OF SYSTEM THAT THE CITY HAD. IN THE END IT ENDED UP RESULTING IN LAWSUITS BY SOME OF THE FAMILIES SO THEY COULD GET THE FULL-TIME BENEFITS THEY FELT THEY WERE ENTITLED TO. >> TALK ABOUT THE CONTEXT IN

WHERE THIS FIRE HAPPENED IN YARNELL, WHO LIVED THERE AND THE EXTENT OF THE DEVELOPMENT THAT GREW UP NEAR THE NATIONAL FOREST. >> YARNELL IS A REMOTE SOMEWHAT HARD TO GET TO MOUNTAIN TOWN CENTRAL ARIZONA. IT HAS ABOUT 600 RESIDENTS, DOESN'T HAVE ANY INDUSTRY. PEOPLE LIVE THERE EITHER BECAUSE THEY RETIRED AND THEY WANT TO BE SORT IN THIS REMOTE PLACE OR, AS I SAY IN THE BOOK, THEY WANT TO FORGET OR BE FORGOTTEN. THEY WANT TO LIVE THEIR LIVES IN PEACE, IN A PLACE THAT IS COOL, NOT LIKE PHOENIX, BUT SOMEWHAT CLOSE TO PHOENIX. AND IT IS A VERY TIGHT KNIT COMMUNITY. THE BRUSH AROUND YARNELL, IS A MIX OF FEDERAL LAND AND STATE LAND, HAD NOT BURNED IN A LITTLE OVER 40 YEARS AND THERE HAD BEEN NO WORK TO THIN THAT BRUSH. IN FACT, THE FIRE CHIEF WHO I MET LAST WEEK, THAT ONLY TO WALK THROUGH THAT BRUSH IN SOME PARTS

YOU NEEDED A CHAINSAW TO CHOP THINGS DOWN SO THAT YOU COULD GET THROUGH IT. AND THAT FIRE WAS STARTED, LIKE MANY FIRES IN THE WEST ARE STARTED, DURING THE MONSOON SEASON, A BOLT OF LIGHTENING STRUCK A CLUSTER OF PARCHED BRUSH, STARTED THE FIRE IN THE EVENING OF MAY -- SORRY -- JUNE, 28TH, 2013 ON FRIDAY, AND BY THE TIME THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOT SHOTS GOT TO THE FIRE ON SUNDAY, THE FIRE HAD DODGED EVERY EFFORT THEY MADE TO MADE STOP IT. IT WAS STILL NOT A BIG FIRE, BUT IT BECAME BIG WHEN A STORM APPROACHED THAT DAY. >> BASICALLY, A HUGE THUNDERSTORM COLLIDED WITH A MAYBE U-TURN DOWN DRAFT AND BECAME THIS INFERNO AND THEY WERE TRYING TO TAKE A SHORTCUT TO A RANCH, THROUGH A PLACE THAT WAS FULL OF BRUSH AND THEY GOT TRAPPED. >> I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD SAY A SHORTCUT. I DON'T MAKE ANY FINAL CONCLUSION AS TO WHY THEY MADE THE DECISION THEY MADE BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THEM ARE HERE

TO EXPLAIN TO US WHAT LED THEM TO MAKE THAT DECISION, BUT, TWO THINGS ARE VERY OBVIOUS TO ME. ONE IS THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THAT PATH HAD THEY NOT BELIEVED THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THEY COULD DO. THIS IS A VERY RISKY JOB BUT NOT A JOB DONE BY CRAZY PEOPLE WHO WOULD THINK, OH, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN MAKE IT. SOMETHING THEY DID WITH A VERY DEEP LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY AND UNDERSTANDING THAT THE GOAL ULTIMATELY IS TO GO HOME SAFE AT NIGHT. SO, WHATEVER INFORMATION THEY HAD AT HAND, THEIR POSITION IN THE FIRE AND ROLE IN THAT FIRE, THEY FELT THAT THE BEST THING TO DO WAS GO DOWN THIS CANYON WHERE THE FIRE HAD NOT BURNED SO IT IS FULL OF BRUSH TOWARDS A RANCH AND JUST BEYOND THE RANCH WAS THE TOWN. AND THEY HAD BEEN CALLED TWICE TO GO TO THE TOWN. AND WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IS THAT THEY WERE GOING THERE TO MAKE THEMSELVES USEFUL ONCE

THE FIRE GOT THERE AND PROTECT SOME OF THE HOMES THERE. IT IS NOT REALLY THE ROLE OF THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER BUT FACED WITH THAT SITUATION, MANY OF THEM END UP WORKING WHAT IS KNOWN AS STRUCTURE PROTECTION. THEY START WORKING TO TRY TO SAVE THE HOMES THAT ARE THERE, FROM BURNING. >> YOU MENTIONED LAWSUITS AND SOME OF THE FAMILIES FILED WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUITS NOT NECESSARILY FOR MONETARY GAIN BUT THEY WANTED TO SEE CHANGES IN THE WAY DECISIONS WERE MADE, RESOURCES ALLOCATED. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS DAY AND THE FIRE THAT PROMPTED PEOPLE TO SAY THINGS NEED TO CHANGE SYSTEMICALLY AND HAS ANY OF THAT HAPPENED? >> WELL, I'LL START WITH THE SECOND PART. THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO. LARGELY BECAUSE THE FIRE HAPPENED ON STATE LAND AND FOR ANY BIG CHANGE TO HAPPEN, IT HAS TO START FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, FROM THE FEDERAL CREWS, BECAUSE THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY THE ONES THAT DOMINATE THE WORLD OF THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING, BUT WITH EVERY STORY THERE IS SHADES OF GRAY. OBVIOUSLY LESSONS LEARNED BY THE

FIREFIGHTERS WHO WOULD STILL DO THIS JOB. TO GO TO THE FIREFIGHTING ACADEMY IS SOMETHING THAT IS TALKED ABOUT IN CLASSES. I HAVE TAKEN THREE DIFFERENT COURSES IN WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING AND RECENTLY TOOK ONE WHERE IT WAS HEAVILY DISCUSSED, AND HOW DO YOU SPOT THE HUMAN FACTORS, YOU KNOW. COULD BE YOU'RE THE BEST TRAINED FIREFIGHER, BUT YOU WAKE UP THAT MORNING AND YOU ARGUE WITH YOUR WIFE OR YOUR HUSBAND OR YOUR KID AND YOU GO TO THE FIRE WITH THAT IN YOUR HEAD. IT HAPPENS TO ALL OF US. IT JUST SORT OF COLORS OUR DAY AND SO HOW DO YOU SPOT SOMEONE NOT TOTALLY THERE. HOW CAN YOU ANTICIPATE A RED FLAG EVEN IF IT IS NOT NECESSARILY YOUR ROLE TO DO THAT? HOW CAN YOU EMPOWER THE ROOKIES, THE UNDERLINGS TO SPEAK UP IF THEY THINK THAT SOME DECISION IS NOT THE BEST DECISION TO BE MADE AT THAT POINT. SO, THAT IS ONE SIDE OF THINGS. THERE ARE BIGGER ISSUES ABOUT COMMUNICATION STILL TO BE RESOLVED, OF COURSE, IT IS DIFFICULT WITH RADIO COMMUNICATIONS AND MOUNTAINS IN THE WAY INTERFERING AND ALSO LOCATION. THERE IS A VERY PRELIMINARY

PLAN IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD PUT THESE CREWS WITH GPS EQUIPMENT WHERE YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO PINPOINT THEIR LOCATION AND INFORM A SPECIFIC CREW THAT, LOOK, YOU'RE IN A PERILOUS POSITION, STAY THERE, GIVE THEM AN ORDER TO STAY THERE OR GIVE THEM AN ORDER AT THAT MOMENT TO LEAVE, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THERE IS ENOUGH TIME TO LEAVE. BUT, THE FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE WORKING -- SOME FAMILIES HAVE FORMED NONPROFIT GROUPS. ONE OF THEM IS CALLED WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER GUARDIANS INSTITUTE AND THEY ARE SPECIFICALLY WORKING TO FORCE THESE TYPES OF CHANGES IN TRAINING AND IN EQUIPMENT THAT IS GIVEN TO THE FIREFIGHTERS. >> GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOT SHOTS, WERE THEY RECONSTITUTED AFTER THEY LOST 19 MEN? >> THE DAY THE 19 MEMBERS DIED WAS THE DAY THE CREW DIED. FOR A WHILE THERE WAS, IT WAS THE BIG QUESTION IN TOWN, YOU

KNOW, IN PRESCOTT, ARE WE EVER GOING TO REVIVE -- IS THE CITY EVER GOING TO REVIVE THIS CREW? IT BECAME A POLITICAL QUESTION AND ALSO A FINANCIAL QUESTION. THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, A BIG LIABILITY, OF COURSE, WHEN YOU LOSE 19 MEMBERS OF A FIRE DEPARTMENT, YOUR INSURANCE GOES UP AND THERE WAS ONLY SO MUCH RISK, I GUESS, AT THAT POINT AND A LOT OF FEAR THAT SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN AGAIN. SO, THE DECISION WAS MADE THAT IT JUST WAS NOT WORTH IT TO RECONSTITUTE THAT CREW. >> FERNANDA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ABOUT THIS BOOK. >> THANK YOU. GREAT TO BE HERE. >> WELCOME BACK TO THE LINE, PROTESTS ARE EXPECTED THIS YEAR AT FIESTA DE SANTA FE, THE ANNUAL CELEBRATION INCLUDES THE REENACTMENT OF CONQUISTADOR DON DIEGO DE VARGAS CAPTURING THE CITY AFTER THE PUEBLO REVOLT. PROTESTS LAST YEAR BROUGHT THE CONCERNS OF NATIVE RESIDENTS AND PUEBLO MEMBERS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE CITY. SANTA FE MAYOR JAVIER GONZALES ALSO RECENTLY PUSHED, IN A CITY COUNCIL MEETING, FOR THE CITY TO RENAME COLUMBUS DAY, INDIGENOUS

PEOPLES DAY. WHAT ARE YOU HEARING? IT IS KIND OF CONFUSING FOR US IN ALBUQUERQUE TO PARSE THIS. WE'RE DEALING WITH LETTERS TO THE EDITOR IN YOUR PAPER AND NOT REALLY HEARING IT ON THE STREET IS THIS AS BIG AS IT SEEMS DOWN HERE, THIS CONTROVERSY OR SOMETHING ACCEPTED AT THIS POINT? >> I MEAN, I THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME VERY REAL CONCERNS ABOUT THE WAY THAT OF FIESTA MAKES PEOPLE FEEL. THERE IS CERTAINLY A PLACE IN OUR COMMUNITY AND DESIRE IN OUR COMMUNITY TO REMEMBER THAT SORT OF STORY. IT ITS KIND OF SANTA FE'S CREATION THAT DE VARGAS CAME IN AND THERE WAS THIS PEACEFUL RECONQUEST, WHICH EVERYONE KNOWS IS NOT AN ACCURATE WAY TO DEPICT WHAT HAPPENED. BUT, I THINK WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT THAT MAYBE SOME PEOPLE MISS WHEN THEY POP INTO SANTA FE FOR LIKE A FRIDAY AFTERNOON TO CHECK OUT SOME DANCING OR GET A BURRITO IN THE PLAZA IS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR CATHOLIC FOLK WHO ARE FAIRLY RELIGIOUS OF THE GERMAN CATHOLIC, THEY BEGIN FIESTA

THE WEEK BEFORE THIS PARTY HAPPENS ON FRIDAY. THERE IS MASS EVERY MORNING, THEY ARE TRYING TO HONOR THE FACT THEY PERCEIVE DE VARGAS AS A FAITHFUL MAN WHO MADE A PROMISE TO THE VIRGIN MARY THAT HE WOULD NOT HAVE AS MUCH BLOOD SHED AS MAYBE HE COULD HAVE, SO THERE IS A LOT OF NUANCE TO THE CELEBRATION. >> HOW MUCH IS POST MODERN REVISIONIST STUFF? >> ALL OF IT. FIESTA IS REALLY TRACES BACK TO LIKE EARLY 1911. CONTEMPORARY CELEBRATION. SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT 400 YEARS OF CONTINUOUS FIESTA THAT HAS BEEN EVOLVING WITH ALL OF THE TRI-CULTURAL, WHICH IS ALSO A MYTH IN SANTA FE, SO, REALLY, FIESTAS IS A GOOD TIME FOR THE COMMUNITY TO GATHER. I THINK THAT THE CITY HALL BOTCHED THE RESPONSE. YOU HAVE GOT FOLKS WHO ARE COMING OUT PROTESTING SAYING, HEY, THE LANGUAGE IS WRONG. HAVING THE INDIAN PRINCESS TRAIL BEHIND OR IN FRONT

OF THE FIESTA COURT, NOT COOL IN THIS DAY AND AGE. LET'S LOOK AT HOW WE CAN MAKE THIS MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF OUR COMMUNITY. CITY HALL DID NOTHING FOR A YEAR. AND THEN THEY HAD A PRIVATE MEETING WHERE MAYOR GONZALES INVITED LEADERS FROM NATIVE TRIBES AND PUEBLOS ALL OVER THE STATE SO HE IS MEETING IN PRIVATE AT A LUNCHEON, THERE IS NO MEDIA THERE. WE HEAR ABOUT IT AFTER THE FACT. THEY SPENT MORE THAN $1000 TO HAVE NICE LITTLE LUNCH AND DRINK ICE TEA AND TALK ABOUT WHATEVER THEY TALKED ABOUT. THEN WE GET THIS PROCLAMATION AND, YOU KNOW, TO THE PEOPLE I TALK TO, THAT IS NOT REALLY CUTTING IT. >> RIGHT. THAT IS MY SENSE OF IT AS WELL. >> JANICE, PICK UP ON THAT TOO. THERE IS A LOT OF MOVING PARTS HERE, EMOTIONALLY, TO DEAL WITH. IT IS INTERESTING. >> I THINK SO. AND SO LET'S TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC AND I DON'T KNOW QUITE WHERE TO SEPARATE THIS, BUT THERE IS NOW SPANISH MARKET AND THAT IS A MORE RECENT DEVELOPMENT, THEN

INDIAN MARKET AND ZOZOBRA WHICH IS A DIFFERENT CELEBRATION. AND NOW WE HAVE SANTA FE FIESTA. NONE OF WHICH ARE PARTICULARLY ACCURATE DEPICTION OF ANYTHING, BUT ARE THEY VALUABLE COMMUNITY EVENTS AND ARE THEY ECONOMICALLY VIABLE? AND I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE THEY KIND OF GO, BANG, BANG, BANG, TOUGH ON THE COMMUNITY. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE MONEY PART, BUT THERE IS A CONFLICT AND A PIECE THAT IS OUR HISTORY EVEN BEGINNING WITH OUR FLAG. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TAKEN FROM THE SPANISH REPRESENTED AND PULLING IN THE INDIGENOUS WITH THE ZIA SUN. AND, SO, WILL WE ALWAYS HAVE THIS CONFLICT? ONE OF THE NIFTY THINGS ABOUT SERVING IN THE LEGISLATURE, AND I AM SORRY WHAT THE GROUP IS CALLED, BUT THE CONQUISTADORS COMING IN TO BRING AND THE BISHOP COMES AND PRAYS, YOU KNOW, THOSE WERE ALL VERY COOL THINGS. IS IT HISTORICALLY ACCURATE? I DON'T HAVE ANY BELIEF THAT IT WAS EVER MEANT TO BE

HISTORICALLY ACCURATE BUT A SNAPSHOT OF LITTLE BITS AND PIECES. BUT I UNDERSTAND IF IT IS NOT -- IF YOUR SOTRY IS NOT BEING TOLD THAT IT COULD GIVE YOU ANGST. >> INDIAN MARKET AND SPANISH MARKET ARE BOTH ABOUT ARTISANS SELLING THEIR WORK. FIESTA IS NOT ABOUT THAT. IT IS NOT ABOUT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN THE SENSE THERE ARE LIKE A BUNCH OF LITTLE PEOPLE MAKING A LIVING. IT IS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN A SENSE THEY TRY TO DRAW TOURISTS IN. WHEN I FIRST MOVED TO SANTA FE 15 YEARS AGO, YOU CAN NEVER CATCH UP TO THE 14TH GENERATION FAMILIES, BUT EVEN THEN, PEOPLE WOULD SAY, THIS IS WHEN SANTA FE GETS TO HAVE ITS OWN CELEBRATION. THIS IS NOT FOR PEOPLE FROM TEXAS. THIS IS NOT FOR VISITORS. THIS IS OUR THING. >> THAT MAKES SENSE. >> YOU KNOW, AGAIN, ANOTHER CLASSIC NEW MEXICO TENSION POINT, YOU KNOW, CLASSICALLY THE VICTOR GETS TO TELL THE STORY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? AND SO IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO

UNWIND THOSE KIND OF THINGS AND GET ANOTHER VOICE IN. HOW DO OTHER VOICES GET IN THE CELEBRATION AND GET TO SOME KIND OF EQUAL STATUS? >> THE FACT IT IS A CELEBRATION IS A PROBLEM FOR A LOT OF ANY TIME YOU CELEBRATE GENOCIDE IT IS A PROBLEM, AND THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET, INDIGENT COMMUNITIES, IN THAT IT IS PRESENTED AS THIS CELEBRATION WITHOUT ANY RECOGNITION OF WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE MURDERED AS A PART OF IT. AND THE FACT IT WAS AN ACT WRAPPED INTO, RELIGIOUS. THERE WAS ALL THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT BUT STILL A FORCIBLE TAKING OF LAND AND PEOPLE. I THINK THAT IS WHY PEOPLE GET UPSET. I AM FROM DEMING. OUR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IS THE DUCK RACES. SO IT IS HARD FOR THAT TO BE CONTROVERSIAL. BUT I AM SURE PEOPLE COULD FIND CONTROVERSY WITH THAT. I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE SANTA FE FIESTA BUT I HAVE BEEN TO THE ESPANOLA FIESTA AND I FOUND IT STRANGE BEING MEXICAN, AND I SELF-IDENTIFY AS BEING MEXICAN,

TO SEE PEOPLE RIDING IN AND THE PAGEANTRY AND THE TIN HATS AND EVEN THE WORD CONQUISTADOR, TO ME, IT HAS GOT A VERY SPECIFIC TERM AND IT ISN'T -- I DON'T PARTICULARLY FIND IT WORTHY OF CELEBRATION, NECESSARILY. I UNDERSTAND IT IS A CULTURAL THING. BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO BE ON A BALANCING, I THINK, OF INTERESTS AND A MORE REALISTIC ASPECT TO IT AND THE CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, PETER IVES, WAS TRYING TO MOVE FORWARD WITH SOMETHING THAT MADE IT MORE INCLUSIVE AND FOR WHATEVER REASON IT DIDN'T MOVE FORWARD. I HOPE THEY PICK THAT BACK UP AND MOVE IT FORWARD, BECAUSE I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO INDIGENOUS FOLKS. >> THE MAYOR IS IN A TOUGH SPOT HERE. CITY FATHERS, MOTHERS, EVERYBODY ELSE IS IN TOUGH SPOT HERE. MY SENSE IS THEY DO WANT TO ACCOMMODATE OTHER VOICES BUT THIS CELEBRATION IS SO FIXED NOW IN THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT THAT JULIE ANN MENTIONED, THERE IS A CALL TO MAKE IT MORE SECULAR, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

THAT WOULD CHANGE IT COMPLETELY, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME, IF YOU DID THAT. >> YEAH, WELL, JULIE ANN NAILED IT. SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, MAYOR'S OFFICE BOTCHED IT. DID I GET THAT ESSENTIALLY CORRECT? >> THAT IS MY THOUGHT. YOU KNOW, THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO KIND OF FIX THE ISSUE, BRING MANY VOICES AROUND THE TABLE AND THE RESOLUTION DIED OR WAS WASN'T FUNDED OR LACK OF INTEREST. WELL, THINGS JUST DON'T DIE IN CITY COUNCIL WHEREVER YOU ARE BECAUSE OF LACK OF INTEREST BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT IT JUST WASN'T SUPPORTED BY THE PERSON WHO BROUGHT THE ISSUE IN. I THINK THAT HE MISSED A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, MAYOR GONZALES MISSED A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO BRING VOICES AROUND THE TABLE AND ADDRESS, TO REACH THAT DETENTE ON THE PROCESSION. NOT THAT THE FIESTA SHOULDN'T OCCUR. THE WHOLE CONVERSATION IS OVER THE PROCESSION AND HOW THINGS ARE DEPICTED AND, I THINK, THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES HAVE A GREAT ARGUMENT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE

OF HOW THEY REPRESENTED THEIR PERSPECTIVE LAST YEAR. AND I THINK THE CITY OF SANTA FE SHOULD BE PREPARED BECAUSE SINCE THEY BASICALLY MUSHROOMED THEM AND SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOUR CONCERNS THEY SHOULD BE PREPARED FOR WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN THIS YEAR AND THEY DESERVE EVERYTHING THEY GET. >> WHEN WE COME BACK WE DISCUSS PROPOSED BALLOT INITIATIVES HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE. >> YOU CAN REACH OUT TO US ANY TIME ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND JOIN WE ARE AT NMINFOCUS ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER AND FIND HELP EPISODES AND WEB EXTRAS AT OUR WEBSITE NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.ORG. >> ROSS CALVIN WAS AN AUTHOR WHO FOCUSED ON BEAUTIFUL LANDSCAPES OF NEW MEXICO, THE WAY THE WEATHER FLOATS ACROSS THE STATE AND THE UNIQUE CITIZENS OF OUR STATE. HE WAS AN EPISCOPALIAN PRIEST THAT CAME TO NEW MEXICO IN 1927 AND LIVED IN SILVER CITY. SARAH GUSTAVUS SAT DOWN EARLIER

THIS YEAR WITH BIOGRAPHER RON HAMM, WHO ALSO LIVES IN SILVER CITY, TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOX, ROSS CALVIN, INTERPRETER OF THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST. >> RON HAMM, THANKS FOR STOPPING BY OUR STUDIOS HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE. >> THANKS VERY MUCH. I APPRECIATE IT. >> NOW, CALVIN PUBLISHED THE BOOK SKY WILL DETERMINES 80 YEARS AGO. WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM HIS WORK TODAY? >> WE CAN LEARN A LOT FROM IT. THE LESSONS ARE STILL RELEVANT, THEY RESONATE. I THINK ONE OF THE CHIEF LESSONS IS THAT THE SKY DOES WE CAN HAVE ALL THE TECHNOLOGY, ALL THE METEOROLOGICAL TOOLS YOU WANT, BUT THE SKY DETERMINES. IF I COULD JUST SHARE ONE THING HE SAID, THAT I HOPE ALLOWS ME TO SEGUE INTO THAT, AND THAT WAS THIS. THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER PEOPLE ONWARD RIGHT UP UNTIL THE PRESENT DAY, BUT HE WAS SAYING THAT I REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE PLANT, WHAT WE EAT, WHERE WE SHELTER, WHAT WE WEAR,

WHAT OR WHO WE WORSHIP, SKY DETERMINES. WATER IS EVERYTHING. YOU EITHER BETTER BE NEAR IT OR IT BETTER FALL FROM THE SKY. NO PROXIMITY DISASTER, SKY DETERMINES. IT STILL DOES TODAY. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> YES. >> HOW DID YOU FIRST BECOME INTERESTED IN HIS WORK? >> WELL, I CAME HERE A LONG TIME AGO AS A BUREAU CHIEF FOR ONE THE WIRE SERVICES AND I CAME FROM THE EAST. AND I LOOKED AROUND AND I SAID, THIS IS DIFFERENT. INDEED IT WAS. I CAME ACROSS THE UNM EDITION OF THIS BOOK AND IT HAD A WINDMILL ON THE COVER, A LOVELY WINDMILL BY SOME GUY NAMED PETER HURD, WHOM I HAD NEVER HEARD, AND I HADN'T HEARD OF ROSS CALVIN AND I STARTED DIGGING INTO THE BOOK AND I READ IT AND REREAD IT AND THE MORE I READ IT, THE MORE I COULD SEE THAT HE HAD A MESSAGE AND THE MESSAGE WAS STILL

CURRENT. IT IS CURRENT TODAY. SKY DETERMINES. RAIN IS EVERYTHING. >> CALVIN ALSO CAME HERE FROM ILLINOIS. MEXICO. >> HIS HEALTH. ACTUALLY, THAT IS THE SHORT ANSWER. HE CAME BY WAY OF PITTSBURGH AND NEW YORK STATE. HE WAS AN ORDAINED EPISCOPALIAN PRIEST WITH A SEMINARY IN NEW YORK CITY AND HAD A PASTORATE IN UPPER NEW YORK STATE. AND HE HAD A PERSISTENT SORE THROAT. HIS FATHER-IN-LAW TOLD ME ONCE, THERE IS NOTHING MORE WORTHLESS THAN A PREACHER WHO CAN'T PREACH. SO HE CAME WEST AND AFTER A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, THE SORE THROAT DISAPPEARED, ONLY TO BE REPLACED BY INSOMNIA, FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES. >> GOSH. >> WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT HOW LIVING IN NEW MEXICO CHANGED HIM AS A PERSON. >> IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY, I THINK. NEW MEXICO WAS HIS MUSE. THE BACKGROUND, THE TOTAL

CONTRAST FROM WHAT HE HAD SEEN, AND THE ONE THING I HAVE SKIPPED IN THIS LITTLE NARRATIVE IS THAT THE COMMON PRESCRIPTION OF THE DAY WAS TO GET OUT IN THE SUNSHINE, GET OUT IN THE FRESH AIR, LUNG PROBLEMS, THROAT PROBLEMS WILL ALL GO AWAY AND INDEED THEY DID. BUT, WHEN HE REGAINED HIS HEALTH, HE LOOKED ABOUT HIM AND SAW ELK AND CACTI AND PINON, PINE, AND WHAT YOU HAVE, BUT HE SAW ALL THE OTHER THINGS AND HE SAW THAT THEY WERE ALL IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER CONNECTED TO THIS ARID ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH HE FOUND HIMSELF, AND HE MADE THE STATEMENT, WHICH IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE LITTLE QUOTES, THAT IN NEW MEXICO, HISTORY DOESN'T TAKE PLACE UNDER A ROOF. IT IS A WONDERFUL LITTLE QUOTE. >> I LOVE THAT. CAN YOU RELATE TO HIS AS SOMEONE WHO CAME FROM THE EAST COAST AS WELL. >> I CAN AND I DO. IN A WAY I FOUND MY MUSE HERE.

WE WERE TALKING BEFORE WE MIKED UP ABOUT MY LITTLE DOG SMOKEY AND MY WIFE, OF COURSE, WHO IS MY MUSE, BUT I THINK THE STATE DID CHANGE ME. I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO SOME WRITING AND SOME THINKING, YES. >> NOW, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WATER AND THE IMPORTANCE OF WATER AS YOU ALREADY MENTIONED. SO CRUCIAL FOR HUMAN LIFE, ALSO HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHERE THERE IS CONCERN ABOUT SCARCITY AND OUR FUTURE, OUR ENVIRONMENTAL FUTURE. WHAT LESSONS DO YOU THINK WE CAN LEARN FROM ROSS CALVIN THAT WE CAN USE TODAY FROM WHAT HE OBSERVED DECADES AGO? >> ONE WOULD BE CONSERVATION. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE, GUARD ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE, CONSERVE IT. REVERE IT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS. ANOTHER THING THAT HE SAID THAT ALTHOUGH NOT NECESSARILY ON TOPIC OF WATER BUT PRETTY DOGGONE CLOSE IS HE HAD THIS

AVERSION TO BIG CITIES. HE THOUGHT WE SHOULD NEVER ONE AND HE WAS PRETTY RIGHT. ALBUQUERQUE IS ABOUT AS BIG AS IT GETS FOR US, BUT HE SAID SOMETHING ONE TIME THAT CROWDING IS BAD FOR THE BODY OF MAN. IT IS BAD FOR THE SPIRIT OF MAN. AND, THESE WERE THE KIND OF THOUGHTS THAT HE HAD THAT HE SHARED WITH US AND SKY DETERMINES. SKY DOES DETERMINE. >> HE DID WRITE ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO IN HIS WORK. WHAT WERE HIS OBSERVATIONS AT THAT TIME. >> IN THE SECOND BOOK HE DID AND WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT IT. THE SECOND BOOK WAS RIVER OF THE SUN WHICH IS ABOUT THE GILA, AND WE CAN SEGUE, AS YOU KNOW AND VIEWERS KNOW, WE ARE HAVING THIS BIG ISSUE ABOUT WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE LAST UNDAMNED RIVER IN NEW MEXICO? WELL, THE ANSWER IS, WE ARE GOING TO DO A DIVERGE IN IT, AT LEAST IT CERTAINLY LOOKS THAT WAY.

AND HE WROTE ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE, THE DENIZENS OF THE BANK, THE BANK SIDE DENIZENS, KIT CARSON, GERONIMO, CATTLEMEN, MORMON FARMERS, THEY ALL IN SOME WAY DEPENDED ON THE RIVER FOR THEIR SPIRIT, IN THE CASE OF THE APACHE, FOR THEIR LIVING IN THE CASE OF THE CATTLEMEN AND THE MORMON FARMERS. >> WHAT DO YOU HOPE FOLKS WILL GET OUT OF READING YOUR BOOK IN LOOKING BACK AT THIS HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE OF NEW MEXICO; THE LAND, THE PEOPLE AND ENVIRONMENT? >> I HOPE THAT -- WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT MY BOOK. I HOPE MY BOOK DOES SOMETHING FOR THEM BECAUSE MY BOOK IS ROSS CALVIN, AN INTERPRETER OF THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST. I HOPE THEY COME AWAY FROM IT AND FROM CALVIN'S BOOKS, MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN MY BOOK, ABOUT THIS REVERENCE FOR WHERE WE LIVE AND WE DON'T HAVE TO BE MAUDLIN ABOUT IT. WE DON'T HAVE TO BE OVER SUGARY

SWEET ABOUT IT, BUT JUST PAY ATTENTION. DON'T FOUL YOUR OWN NEST, YOU KNOW. >> THAT IS INCREDIBLE, RON. ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS, THINGS THAT SURPRISED YOU WHEN DOING YOUR RESEARCH. >> YES, AS A MATTER OF FACT, HOW RELEVANT HIS THOUGHTS WERE. I ALWAYS START OUT A PROJECT LIKE THIS BY ASKING MYSELF A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS AND SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WERE DO HIS THEORIES ABOUT WEATHER STILL HOLD UP. AND I AM A WRITER, CERTAINLY NOT A WEATHERMAN OR A SCIENTIST, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, SO I WENT TO WEATHERMEN IN EL PASO AND SANTA TERESA AND I ASKED THOSE QUESTIONS. AND, ONE THING THAT I LEARNED IS THAT IN NEW MEXICO WE ACTUALLY HAVE THREE MONSOONS. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. WE HAVE THE ONE THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH OR HAVE GONE THROUGH HERE IN JUNE, THE WET ONE, WHICH INCIDENTALLY, CALVIN REFERRED TO AS SECOND SPRING TIME. IT IS A LOVELY LITTLE PHRASE,

MONSOON AS SECOND SPRING TEAM, BUT THERE IS ALSO ONE IN THE WINTER, NOVEMBER, DECEMBER AND IT BRINGS A LITTLE BIT OF SNOW. THEN THERE IS THE OTHER ONE THAT WE WENT THROUGH A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO WITH ALL THE DUST AND GUSTS AND BLOWING DUST. SO WE ACTUALLY HAVE THREE AND I ALSO LEARNED SOME PLACE ALONG THE WAY THAT I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE MONSOON CAME FROM, THE TERM, BUT IT IS AN ARABIC TERM AND IT JUST MEANS SEASONAL WIND. SO THAT IS ONE THING I LEARNED. >> THAT IS INTERESTING. >> THAT SPRING TIME WIND IS MY LEAST FAVORITE SEASON IN NEW MEXICO. >> AND MINE, AND MOST PEOPLES I IMAGINE, UNLESS YOU'RE A KITE FLYER. >> RON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STOPPING BY AND TALKING WITH US ABOUT THE BOOK. >> YOU'RE WELCOME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> WE ARE BALK AT THE LINE TABLE WITH THIS WEEKS PANELIST TO DISCUSS ONE MORE TOPIC. TWO BALLOT INITIATIVES IN ALBUQUERQUE THAT MAY OUR MAY NOT END UP ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER. ONE WOULD REQUIRE THAT LOCAL

EMPLOYERS ALLOW PEOPLE TO EARN SICK LEAVE. WEEKS AGO. THE OTHER WOULD PROVIDE MORE PUBLIC FINANCING FOR CANDIDATES IN THE CITY'S MAYORAL ELECTIONS. LAURA, ALREADY SEPTEMBER, NO CLEAR ANSWER ON WHETHER INITIATIVES ARE ON THE BALLOT. A LOT OF FINGER POINTING HERE. THIS IS TOUGH TO PARSE OUT. LET'S TAKE THIS ONE AT A TIME. ON THE IDEA OF THE PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED SICK LEAVE, THE IDEA OF PUTTING IT ON THE BALLOT A LONG EXPLANATION ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING VERSUS A SUMMARY, SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE CONTENTIOUS ISSUES HERE. CAN FOLKS REALLY GET WHAT THEY NEED IN THE BOOTH TO MAKE A DECISION ON A SUMMARY OR IS IT ON US TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE VOTING FOR BEFORE WE GO INTO THE BOTH? LET'S TAKE THAT ONE FIRST, SUMMARY ISSUE, DOES THAT WORK FOR YOU? >> YEAH, MAINLY BECAUSE I DO -- SOME OF THE WORK THAT I DO IS BOND WORK, MUNICIPAL BONDS AND NO WAY THEY PUT THE ENTIRE RESOLUTION OR THE ORDINANCE OF A BOND ON TO A BALLOT FOR A BOND QUESTION. IT IS ALWAYS A SUMMARY. IT IS A

VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION THAT SPELLS OUT THE PURPOSES. I DON'T SEE WHY THEY COULDN'T DO THAT WITH THIS. WHAT IS NOT FEASIBLE IS TO HAVE SEVEN PAGES WORTH OF RESOLUTION OR BALLOT PROPOSITION ON OUR BALLOT. ESPECIALLY IN THE PRESIDENTIAL YEAR AND I WORKED WITH THE COUNTY CLERK'S OFFICE DOING ABSENTEE BALLOTS, JUDGE WORK, AND ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, IN A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR, YOU ALREADY HAVE A VERY LONG BALLOT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALL KINDS OF DOWN BALLOT RACES, NOT JUST THE TOP ONES. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BOTH SIDES, VERY SMALL PRINT, BOTH SIDES AND YOU GET TO THOSE QUESTIONS AND THEY HAVE TO BE VERY SMALL. AND SPECIFIC SUMMARIES. YOU WOULD HAVE MULTIPLE PAGES OF A BALLOT IF YOU ADDED SEVEN PAGES OF RESOLUTION. PART OF WHAT I FIND TROUBLING IS -- WELL, THE FINGER POINTING IS CHILDISH BUT IF THE CITY COUNCIL IS SERIOUS ABOUT WANTING TO PUT THIS QUESTION ON THE BALLOT, THEY NEED TO GO BACK AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO SUMMARIZE IT. IF YOU'RE RELYING ON THE ADVOCATES TO SUMMARIZE IT, YOU MAY GET A SUMMARY THAT IS SLANTED. SO, IT IS CITY COUNCIL

AND THEIR ANALYSTS NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT. PORT OF THE PROBLEM IS COUNCIL PRESIDENT IS SAYING, WE HAVE ALREADY DONE WHAT WE NEED TO DO. YOUR ESSENTIALLY TELLING THE COMMISSION, YOU KNOW, WE ARE DONE, SO PICK ONE AND THEY ARE GOING TO PICK THE SMALLER ONE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ADD. ADDING MORE PAGES TO THAT BALLOT IS ADDING MORE DOLLARS TO YOUR ELECTION. THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE EITHER FOR THE TAXPAYERS OF THIS COUNTY. >> MAGGIE TOULOUSE OLIVER WEIGHED IN TOO, SAYING YOU CAN HAVE ONE OR THE OTHER BUT NOT BOTH. THE FINGER POINTING JUST MENTIONED BETWEEN CITY COUNCIL AND OUR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THAT? IT SEEMED TO ME THAT LIKE LAURA SENT IT TO COUNTY COMMISSION, THEY EXPECTED A QUICK STAMP OFF AND EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO RUN SMOOTHLY AND IT KICKED BACK AND CITY COUNCIL GOT LOOSE ON THEIR FEET. WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF IT? IS CITY COUNCIL TO BLAME OR COUNTY COMMISSION? >> WELL, THE WHO IS TO BLAME; RIGHT? WHO IS TO BLAME BUT I THINK THESE BALLOT ISSUES, TWO OF

THEM, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE SIGNATURES, THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A WAY TO INCREASE ATTENDANCE AT POLLING AND THAT IS IT. BECAUSE I DON'T SEE EITHER ONE OF THE TWO ISSUES PASSING. I THINK IT IS CHILDISH WITH THE WHOLE CITY COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, SAYING, WELL, IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS, THEN, WE ARE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOT PLAYING NICELY. SO ALL OF A SUDDEN THE COMMISSION DECIDES TO TAKE ON ART. IT IS LIKE MADNESS. ALL THEY ARE DOING IS REINFORCING THIS PERCEPTION THAT GOVERNMENT IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE JUST FIGHTS. GOVERNMENT IS FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE AND THAT IS WHY THE LACK OF TRUST OF STATE GOVERNMENT AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND EVEN, I WOULD IMAGINE, CITY AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, IS TANKED BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE RESPONSIBLE IN HOW YOU APPROACH THESE ISSUES AND FIGHTING BACK AND FORTH OVER THIS STUFF IS JUST NOT GOING TO DO IT. >> RIGHT ON. JULIE ANN, INTERESTINGLY, SANTA

FE IS A DIFFERENT SYSTEM FOR BALLOT INITIATIVES. INTERESTING POINT TOM MAKES, THIS IDEA THAT YOU LOAD BALLOT INITIATIVES ON THE BALLOT ITSELF, MUDDYING THE WATER, PEOPLE TRYING TO GET CLARITY. DOES THAT WORK IN YOUR VIEW, USING THIS SYSTEM? >> WE HAVE SEEN THESE NON BINDING RESOLUTIONS POP UP, IS INTENDED TO DRAW MORE OF THIS TYPE OF VOTER TO THE POLLS AND I THINK THERE IS TRUTH IN THAT. WE SAW THAT WITH THE MARIJUANA DECRIMINALIZATION MEASURE THAT HAS BEEN IN SEVERAL COUNTIES. INTERESTINGLY, THE CITY OF SANTA FE WAS GOING TO PUT A MARIJUANA DECRIMINALIZATION MEASURE ON A CITY BALLOT, WHICH, IN SANTA FE, THE CITY BALLOT HAPPENS IN THE SPRIG AS OPPOSED TO THE STATE THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT COMING UP IN THE FALL, BUT, THE CITY COUNCIL DECIDED WE DON'T WANT TO PUT THAT ON THE BALLOT, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A RULE ABOUT THAT, WHICH, OF COURSE, THE POLICE AREN'T FOLLOWING. THAT IS A STORY FOR ANOTHER DAY. I DO THINK THAT THE BALLOT

INITIATIVE QUESTION IS ONE THAT IS STILL WORTH TALKING ABOUT. IF THEY DON'T HAVE A HOPE OF PASSING IT OR HOPE OF DOING SOMETHING, THE BALLOT IS ALREADY LIKE TOO LONG TO READ FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE. YOU HAVE THESE JUDICIAL RETENTION RACES THAT PEOPLE DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO FILL OUT. >> IT HAPPENS. YOU KNOW, WE TALKED BEFORE WE STARTED TAPING ABOUT THIS IDEA OF THE EIGHT PAGES. THERE THEY ARE RIGHT THERE. NO ONE IS GOING TO DO THAT. NO ONE IS GOING TO DO THAT. THEY MAKE A DECISION AFTER PARAGRAPH 2 AND GO FOR IT. >> SO, LOTS OF PROBLEMS HERE. ONE IS, I AM NOT A BALLOT INITIATIVE FAN BECAUSE THE LANGUAGE THAT IS PASSED, IF YOU'RE NOT COGNIZANT OF THE WAY OUR STATUTES WORK, THEY CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS. SUMMARIES, LAURA HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD, DEPENDS WHO IS SUMMARIZING IT. MY FRIEND DENNIS PUT IN A BILL THAT WAS SUMMARIZED BY LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL SERVICE TO INCREASE CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE LEGISLATIVE RETIREMENT. IT FAILED.

DO YOU KNOW WHY IT FAILED? BECAUSE PEOPLE READ THE TITLE AND THEY THOUGHT IT MEANT THAT THE STATE WAS GOING TO GIVE THEM MORE MONEY WHEN IN FACT THEY WERE CHANGING THE BURDEN. A BIG DIFFERENCE. SO YOU HAVE GOT TO ASK THE OTHER QUESTION, SO THIS IS A VERY BIG DEAL. WHERE ARE THE CITY COUNCILORS WHO SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT THIS FORWARD AS A PIECE OF LEGISLATION TO GET IT PASSED? THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS TO GO TO THE BALLOT BECAUSE IF THE CITY COUNCIL WANTED TO DO IT, WHY DIDN'T THEY CARRY IT? DID THEY NOT HAVE POLITICAL WILL. >> STAY WITH YOU. TOM MENTIONED ART. WHY ARE WE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THIS ON THE BALLOT? THAT ANGERS ME. THAT IT IS EVEN A QUESTION ON THE BALLOT. COLOSSAL WASTE OF MONEY. >> HAVING SAT ON VOTERS AND ELECTIONS, THERE IS SOME SANCTITY TO THE BALLOT AND IT IS MEANT FOR PEOPLE TO GIVE YOU A DIRECT ACTION TO TAKE. POLLING BY BALLOT IS OUTRAGEOUS. >> THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE, THANK YOU GUYS, GREAT STUFF

TONIGHT, APPRECIATE IT. >> I AM GENE GRANT. THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK FOR INFOCUS. AS ALWAYS WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EFFORT TO STAY INFORMED AND ENGAGED.