New Mexico in Focus; 817; Election Wrap-Up and Radley Balko, "Rise of the Warrior Cop"

>> PARTIAL FUNDING FOR THE PRODUCTION OF "NEW MEXICO INFOCUS" PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION. >> THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO INFOCUS, THE ELECTIONS AND THE RISE OF THE GOP. >> THANK YOU NEW MEXICO FOR GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE TO BE YOUR GOVERNOR. >> WE TALK WITH INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST RADLEY BALKO ABOUT POLICE MILITARIZATION. >> NEW MEXICO INFOCUS STARTS NOW. >> THIS WEEK THE LINE OPINION PANEL HAS A DEBRIEF ON THE ELECTION. FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 60 YEARS, REPUBLICANS ARE THE MAJORITY IN THE STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. WE ALSO HAVE TWO SEGMENTS RELATED TO THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT TONIGHT. APD AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ANNOUNCED A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT THAT PROMISES SWEEPING REFORMS ON CONTENTIOUS ISSUES SUCH AS USE OF FORCE, TRAINING AND OVERSIGHT. THE LINE WEIGHS IN ON THAT AND CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND

SITS DOWN WITH INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER RADLEY BALKO, AUTHOR OF "RISE OF THE WARRIOR COP; MILITARIZATION OF AMERICA'S POLICE FORCES." MR. BALKO OFFERS HISTORICAL CONTEXT IN HOW POLICE DEPARTMENTS NOW LOOK MORE LIKE LIKE ARMIES THEN CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT WE BEGIN WITH THE GROUP'S ANALYSIS OF STATE-WIDE RACES IN THIS WEEK'S ELECTION. HERE IS THE LINE. >> IT WAS AN ELECTION FOR THE HISTORY BOOKS. THERE WERE NO BIG SURPRISES IN STATE-WIDE RACES BUT CHANGES IN WASHINGTON D.C. AND THE STATE HOUSE HAVE CREATED A NEW FRAMEWORK FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED. TO DISCUSS THE POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THIS WEEKS EVENTS WE HAVE ASSEMBLED A SPECIAL LINE PANEL OF POLITICAL REPORTERS AND A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR TO BOOT. HERE TO OFFER INSIGHTS ON STATE-WIDE RACES AND OTHER ISSUES OF THE WEEK IS, STEVE TERRELL, POLITICAL REPORTER FOR THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN. FROM THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL, POLITICAL REPORTER JAMES MONTELEONE. ALSO REPRESENTING FROM THE STATE CAPITOL, JULIE ANN GRIMM, EDITOR OF THE SANTA FE REPORTER AND LONNA ATKESON, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO. GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ, YOU

KNOW LET'S KIND OF FLIP THIS AROUND. BIG WIN, BIG MARGIN, RECORD SETTING, ALL THAT. SOMETHING, HOWEVER, DID NOT CLICK FOR DEMOCRATS TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT LANDSIDE. IN THE OVERALL, WAS IT NECESSARILY THE CANDIDATE? WAS IT NECESSARILY THE REPUBLICAN TIDE THIS YEAR. WHAT HAPPENED THERE? >> THE REPUBLICAN TIDE HELPED THAT IS FOR SURE. GARY KING SEEMED HOBBLED. HE COULDN'T RAISE THE MONEY, NATIONAL DEMOCRATS SAID MONTHS AGO, WE'RE GOING TO SKIP NEW MEXICO THIS TIME, THERE IS OTHER RISES WE'LL SPEND MONEY ON. AND HE WAS NEVER ABLE TO GET HIS MESSAGE OUT, NEVER ABLE TO MATCH HER IN ADS AND IT SEEMED PRETTY OBVIOUS FROM PROBABLY JUNE, THE RACE WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. >> JUNE MIGHT BE GENEROUS. >> YEAH. >> ALL KIDDING ASIDE, GOOD TO SEE YOU JULIE ANN, INTERESTINGLY, SHE ALSO WAS ABLE TO PULL OFF WHAT I THOUGHT WAS

AN INTERESTING TRICK, THERE IS A LOT OF STUFF OUT THERE GOING BACK TO JUNE, A LOT OF NEGATIVE STUFF. WE HAD THE MOTHER JONES THING, ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT THINGS BUT THE CRITICS JUST COULD NOT SEEM TO MAKE ANY HEADWAY OUTSIDE OF GARY KING. NO OUTSIDE GROUPS CAME INTO SUPPORT HIM THAT WE ALL ANTICIPATED. WHY WOULD YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE A STRATEGY? WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN THERE FOR THOSE FOLKS? SUPPORT IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO AMONG DEMOCRATS GOING INTO THIS AND I THINK THAT THE -- THERE WAS SO MANY CANDIDATES IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY THAT YOU HAD THE BASE REALLY DIVIDED. WHEN GARY KING EMERGED VICTORIOUS FROM THAT PRIMARY, YOU STILL HAD PEOPLE THAT SAID, HE IS NOT MY GUY. AND I THINK THAT HURT HIM. >> INTERESTING. LONNA, GOOD TO SEE YOU. LET'S GO TO SENATE, NO BIG SURPRISE THERE FOR MR. UDALL. WERE YOU SURPRISED AT END RESULT OF THE GAP, NOT THAT IT REALLY MATTERS, A WIN IS A WIN, BUT DID SOMETHING JUMP OUT? >> CONSIDERING IN 2008 HE WAS STATE THERE'S DEFINITELY -- THAT

REALLY CLARIFIES THE REPUBLICAN TIDE AND THE LOW TURNOUT GOING ON NOT JUST ONLY IN NEW MEXICO BUT ACROSS THE NATION. WE WERE AT 38%, THE NATION WAS AT 36.8 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, SO WE WERE RIGHT IN LINE WITH THE NATION. THIS WAS REALLY LOW TURNOUT, HAVEN'T SEEN IT THIS LOW SINCE 2002 IN MIDTERM. >> INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, THAT EFFECT ON OTHER RACES, GO DOWN ONE TO SECRETARY OF STATE. A LOT OF FOLKS EXPECTED MAGGIE TOULOUSE OLIVER TO GIVE A LITTLE BIT OF A TOUGHER GO FOR SECRETARY DURAN. WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF THAT RACE AS WELL? >> WELL, I THINK THAT THAT, IN TURNOUT DEPRESSED, WHEN YOU HAVE DEMOCRATS FEELING LESS THAN ENGAGED WITH THEIR GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE, GARY KING, I THINK THAT THERE WAS CONFIDENCE ON DEMOCRATS IN SENATOR UDALL AND I THINK THAT CAUSED MANY DEMOCRATS THAT MAY OTHERWISE HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN THE ELECTION TO SAY, I CAN SIT THIS ONE OUT. >> INTERESTING. ANOTHER RACE, AUDITOR. NO BIG SURPRISE THERE WHO WON,

BUT, AGAIN, ANY OF THESE OTHER FACTORS DID NOT SEEM TO NECESSARILY AFFECT HIM AS THE WINNER. HE WAS ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF HIS BUSINESS AGAINST THE REPUBLICAN TIDE. >> TIM KELLER WAS ABLE TO GO ON TV WITH AN AD THAT GOT NATIONAL ATTENTION, BREAKING BAD THEME. AND, YOU KNOW, HE DIDN'T REALLY ACCUSE HIS OPPONENT OF BEING A METH MANUFACTURER, BUT, THAT GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION AND HE IS A PRETTY GOOD CANDIDATE. HE HAS AMBITIONS BEYOND THE AUDITOR. >> HECTOR BALDERAS. >> HIS OPPONENT, ROBERT ARAGON, ALSO DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN SOME KEY THINGS INCLUDING IN SANTA FE COUNTY THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS QUESTIONNAIRE. HE HAD A BLANK THERE UNDER HIS NAME. SO, I WONDER IF THAT WASN'T A FACTOR THAT HELPED BOOST TIM. >> JULIE ANN, WE HAVE OTHER RACES OF COURSE, BEN RAY LUJAN AND STEVE PEARCE, WON VERY HANDILY. WE'LL JUST KIND OF COVER IT RIGHT THERE.

LET'S GO TO LEGISLATIVE STUFF, THAT IS MORE INTERESTING, AS A MATTER OF FACT. WE HAVE HAD A FLIP. REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS -- LET ME COVER AG AS WELL. GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S RACE AND THEN TO LEGISLATIVE STUFF. >> IN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S RACE, REMIND ME AGAIN, I AM HAVING A BLANK MOMENT, WAS SUSAN RIEDEL -- AND HECTOR. I AM SORRY. YES, I THINK SUSAN RIEDEL HAS REALLY CLOSE TIES TO MARTINEZ. SHE WORKED IN THAT OFFICE FOR A LONG TIME, HECTOR, VERY POPULAR DEMOCRAT. HAD HIS ACT TOGETHER SO I THINK THAT IS WHY YOU SEE THAT. ON THE LEGISLATIVE SIDE, THE THING I KNOW THE MOST ABOUT IS THE SANTA FE COUNTY CONTEST. WE HAVE A RACE, DISTRICT 50, WHICH WAS HISTORICALLY HELD BY DEMS, THAT WAS KING'S SEAT. YOU REMEMBER THE GOVERNOR THEN APPOINTS VICKIE PEREA TO FILL THAT SEAT. SHE'S NOT AT THE ROUNDHOUSE FOR VERY LONG SO WE SAW A REALLY HANDY VICTORY FOR MATT MCQUEEN THERE. PRETTY BIG MARGIN. >> I APOLOGIZE. I AM SO ANXIOUS TO GET TO THE LEGISLATIVE STUFF, I JUMPED MY OWN GUN HERE A LITTLE BIT. AUBREY DUNN AND RAY POWELL. DIDN'T MEAN TO SKIP THAT.

AS WE SIT HERE TAPING, IT IS VERY CLOSE, WE HAVEN'T YET AS WE KNOW HAD THE TRIGGER ON WHAT ACCOUNTS FOR A RECOUNT AND RAY POWELL CERTAINLY IS NOT CONCEDING AT THIS POINT. TAKE US THROUGH WHAT A RECOUNT WOULD ENTAIL. WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN FOR AN AUTOMATIC RECOUNT TO HAPPEN? >> HE HAS TO HAVE 1% DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CANDIDATES AND THEN THAT AUTOMATICALLY TRIGGERS A RECOUNT BUT WE'RE STILL COUNTING VOTES BECAUSE WE HAVE PROVISIONAL VOTES, VOTES ACROSS THE STATE THAT WE ARE STILL COUNTING IN THAT RACE. AT THAT POINT, THEN, THEY HAVE TO RECOUNT THE VOTES AND THEY USUALLY DO THAT WITH THE MACHINE SO -- >> IS THERE ANY VOTES HANGING OUT THERE UNACCOUNTED FOR AT THIS TIME? >> PROVISIONAL. >> AND USUALLY WHAT PERCENTAGE USUALLY HANGS OUT AT THIS TIME? >> IT VARIES A LOT. >> INTERESTING. FOR THIS RACE, JAMES MONTELEONE, AGAIN, A FEW MONTHS AGO YOU THOUGHT RAY POWELL HAD THE SHOE-IN ON THIS ONE. HOW DID THAT RACE CLOSE AND WHAT

DID AUBREY DUNN DO TO MAKE THAT CLOSE SO QUICKLY. >> I HAVE HEARD A NUMBER OF PEOPLE POINT TO THE ONE SINGLE AD THAT RELATED TO THE DIXON APPLE ORCHARD AND SOME OF THE DRAMA THAT PLAYED OUT BETWEEN THE LAND COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE AND THE LEASE OF THAT APPLE ORCHARD AND AFTERMATH OF THE LOS CONCHAS FIRE. I THINK THAT RAY POWELL ESSENTIALLY KIND OF WROTE THAT OFF AS A NONISSUE. I DON'T HAVE CONTROL OF A WILDFIRE SO PEOPLE WON'T BLAME ME FOR THAT, BUT THAT REALLY STUCK AND IT SEEMED LIKE THAT ONE LITTLE PIECE COULD HAVE TURNED THE TIDE CONCERNING HOW CLOSE THAT RACE IS. >> YEAH. INTERESTING. YOU KNOW, IT WENT UNANSWERED FOR QUITE A WHILE AND FOLKS WERE SAYING, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? >> THAT IS THE THING, IT WENT THREE OR FOUR WEEKS UNANSWERED. THAT AD WAS RUNNING A LOT. IT WAS ON THE INTERNET TOO. I COULDN'T GO SEE TO SOME ROCK N ROLL VIDEO ON YOUTUBE, WITHOUT AUBREY DUNN POPPING UP. >> HE WAS EVERYWHERE AND POWELL JUST HE WAS JUST SO LAID BACK. I MADE THE COMMENT ON THE RADIO

THE OTHER NIGHT THAT HE MADE GARY KING LOOK LIKE A DYNAMIC CAMPAIGNER AND IT REALLY HURT HIM. >> I WONDER, TOO, IF POWELL LOOKED AT THAT ORCHARD PROBLEM AS NOT HIS PROBLEM. YOU KNOW, THIS DEAL TO CHANGE THE OWNERSHIP FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO TO THE STATE LAND OFFICE, THIS HAPPENED WHEN POWELL IS NOT IN OFFICE. AND SO I THINK HE WAS TRYING TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THAT BUT I AGREE THAT IN NOT ANSWERING THAT AD -- >> WHEN YOU ARE BEING ACCUSED OF SOMETHING... >> RIGHT. IT IS VERY COMPELLING WHEN YOU SEE THE WOMAN, I AM ASSUMING SHE WAS THE WIFE OF THE FAMILY -- >> GRANDDAUGHTER. >> GRANDDAUGHTER. SHE WAS VERY COMPELLING. SHE LOOKED VEXED. SHE WAS REALLY QUITE TROUBLED BY THIS, SO THAT LEAVES AN IMPRESSION. >> I GOT TO SWING BACK TO SUSANA MARTINEZ. I DIDN'T WANT TO JUMP OVER THAT. STEVE, STAY WITH YOU. NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS WHERE SHE MAY OR MAY NOT GO CASTING WAY DOWN THE ROAD HERE.

DID YOU HEAR ANYTHING IN THE SPEECH OR IN ANY OF THIS RUN-UP THAT TELLS YOU THAT SHE IS LOOKING DOWN THE ROAD OR IS THIS IT FOR HER RIGHT NOW; GOVERNOR. >> WELL, IT IS KIND OF MIXED SIGNALS. SHE HAS SAID POINT BLANK I WILL SERVE MY FOUR YEARS. I WILL NOT BE ON ANY NATIONAL TICKET AND SHE SAID THAT AND SHE HAS BEEN SAYING BASICALLY THAT FOR YEARS. BUT SHE WAS ASKED DIRECTLY IN THE DEBATE THAT JIM WAS PART OF AND SHE SAID, NO, I WILL NOT -- I WILL SERVE MY FULL 4 YEARS. HOWEVER DURING THE SPEECH, HER VICTORY SPEECH, SHE SAID, I KNOW MANY PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF NEW MEXICO ARE LOOKING AT US TONIGHT AND I AM THE FIRST HISPANIC FEMALE GOVERNOR AND IN A BLUE STATE, EVEN, AND, YOU KNOW, AND IN AMERICA EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE. >> YOU KNOW WHAT, WHY DON'T WE LISTEN TO THAT PART OF THE SPEECH RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE ACCESS, LET'S PLAY IT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. >> PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT NEW MEXICO TONIGHT, TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE THE

NATION'S FIRST HISPANIC FEMALE GOVERNOR IN THE NATION. TO WIN A SECOND TERM AS GOVERNOR. A REPUBLICAN, NO LESS, AND A HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC STATE. AND, YES, IT MEANS SOMETHING TO ME PERSONALLY. WHILE NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE ENTIRELY DEFINED BY OUR RACE OR OUR BACKGROUND, I AM PROUD OF WHAT THIS MEANS TO PEOPLE OF HISPANIC DESCENT HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND AROUND THE COUNTRY. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, IN AMERICA, TODO ES POSIBLE. [CHEERING] >> INTERESTING, TO HEAR THAT STEVE, AS YOU MENTIONED, JULIE ANN WITH THAT, MENTIONING OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ARE WATCHING. SHE IS MAKING OUTREACH IT SOUNDS LIKE PAST OUR STATE LINES.

DID YOU HEAR THE SAME THING? >> I DID HEAR THAT AND I THINK THAT SHE WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST PERSON TO MAKE A COMMITMENT OR MAKE A PROMISE, THIS IS WHERE I WANT TO STAY HERE AND I WANT TO DO THIS JOB, AND THEN TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, THEY NEED ME AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL. MY PEOPLE NEED ME. AND, I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED AT ALL IF SHE GETS TAPPED BY THE GOP AS A VP OR BIGGER CANDIDATE. SHE MIGHT GO FOR IT. >> WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS. UP NEXT, CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SITS DOWN WITH RADLEY BALKO, AUTHOR OF "RISE OF THE WARRIOR COP." >> WE HAVE GOT AT LEAST ONE BRANCH OF THE GOVERNMENT, ONE BRANCH OF THE BICAMERAL GOVERNOR'S POLICIES AND WITH THE SENATE AND THE MORE CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS AND FACT THEY GET MORE VOICE IN THERE, IN THEIR LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, I THINK THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF MORE THINGS MOVING THROUGH. OF POLICE

FORCES HAS NOT ONLY BEEN AN ISSUE IN NEW ALBUQUERQUE BUT ALSO IN FERGUSON, MISSOURI AND MANY OTHER PLACES ACROSS THE COUNTRY. INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST RADLEY BALKO DELVES INTO THIS PHENOMENA IN HIS BOOK "RISE OF THE WARRIOR COP." HE STARTS WITH THE CREATION OF SWAT UNITS IN RESPONSE TO CIVIL UNREST IN THE 60'S AND PURSUES THE TRAIL THROUGH A POST 911 WORLD IN WHICH FEDERAL GRANTS HAVE ALLOWED POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO PURCHASE MILITARY GEAR ONCE RESERVED FOR SOLDIERS. BALKO WAS IN ALBUQUERQUE THIS WEEK TO SPEAK TO POLICE ADVOCACY GROUP, APD FORWARD, AND SAT DOWN WITH NEW MEXICO INFOCUS CORRESPONDENT, GWYNETH DOLAND. >> OUR GUEST TODAY IS RADLEY BALKO, REPORTER AND WRITER FOR WASHINGTON POST AND AUTHOR OF "RISE OF THE WARRIOR COP; THE MILITARIZATION OF AMERICA'S POLICE FORCES. WELCOME. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON. >> YOU SAY THAT TODAY'S WOULD HAVE TERRIFIED THE FOUNDERS OF OUR COUNTRY, BUT WE LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE THE BEST LAW ENFORCEMENT SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD. WHAT ABOUT THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT, FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD HAVE GEORGE WASHINGTON'S

NICKERS IN A TWIST? >> I MEAN I THINK THE MAIN THING IS THAT THE FOUNDERS WOULDN'T HAVE ANTICIPATED EVEN HAVING POLICE DEPARTMENTS LIKE WE HAVE THEM TODAY. IN THE PRE-COLONIAL TIMES AND SHORTLY AFTER WE BECAME A FORMALIZED CENTRALIZED POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS UNHEARD OF AT THAT TIME. LAW ENFORCEMENT WAS -- YOU HAD SHERIFFS AND CONSTABLES, BUT LAW ENFORCEMENT WAS MORE A CIVIL MATTER. PEOPLE WOULD BRING CHARGES AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE AND YOU WOULD HAVE TRIALS, BUT, INCARCERATION AS A PUNISHMENT WASN'T REALLY A THINGS. JAILS HELD PEOPLE UNTIL THEIR TRIAL, SO, JUST THE VERY NOTION I THINK OF POLICING. AND I ALSO THINK ONE OF THE BIG FEARS OF THE FOUNDERS WAS THE IDEA THAT THREAT POSED TO LIBERTY BY A STANDING ARMY, THE IDEA OF HAVING SOLDIERS SORT OF BILLETED AMONG CITIZENRY AND THEY SAW THE STREETS OF BOSTON WHEN BRITAIN STATIONED TROOPS IN THE STREETS OF BOSTON TO ENFORCE IMPORT LAWS AND TARIFFS AND SO

FORTH. AND IT LED TO A LOT OF ALTERCATIONS AND EVENTUALLY VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE CITIZENS OF BOSTON AND SOLDIERS. >> THEY WERE PARANOID ABOUT THE POWER OF SOLDIERS. >> RIGHT. AND SO, I THINK, THEY WOULD BE -- THE IDEA OF A POLICE DEPARTMENT WOULD BE FOREIGN TO THEM. TODAY'S POLICE DEPARTMENTS WOULD BE PARTICULARLY DISTURBING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, TODAY'S POLICE OFFICERS ARE ARMED LIKE SOLDIERS. THEY ARE TRAINED LIKE SOLDIERS. THEY DRESS LIKE SOLDIERS, A LOT OF TIMES. THEY USE MILITARY TACTICS. THEY ARE TOLD EVERYDAY THEY ARE FIGHTING A WAR, WHETHER IT IS A WAR ON CRIME OR DRUGS OR TERRORISM. SO, IF YOUR WORRY IS THAT -- ABOUT A STANDING ARMY, IS THAT PUTTING SOLDIERS AMONG THE CITIZENRY AND PEOPLE WITH SOLDIERS MINDSETS ARE ENFORCING LAWS AMONG THE CITIZENRY, A THREAT TO LIBERTY, WHETHER THEY ARE ACTUAL SOLDIERS OR POLICE OFFICERS WHO ARE TRAINED AND ARMED AND DRESSED AND ACT LIKE SOLDIERS, I THINK IS, YOU KNOW, KIND OF A DISTINCTION

WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE. >> FOUNDERS DID NOT LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE PEOPLE WITH ASSAULT RIFLES MURDERED DOZENS OF PEOPLE IN A MOVIE THEATER OR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. THE PUBLIC DEMANDS THAT OUR POLICE OFFICERS MEET THE THREAT WHERE IT IS. DON'T WE NEED THESE KIND OF OFFICERS IN ORDER TO PROTECT US FROM VIOLENT DRUG DEALERS AND BANK ROBBERS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE MENTALLY ILL AND JUST BENT ON DESTRUCTION? >> WOW. THERE IS A LOT IN THAT QUESTION? SO, FIRST, I DO THINK WE NEED POLICE AND POLICE DEPARTMENTS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT WAS INTENDED IN THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS, I THINK IT IS NECESSARY. I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT POLICE ARE THE PUBLIC SERVANTS. I THINK PROTECT AND SERVE IS A GOOD MOTTO. YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THERE ARE OCCASIONS WHERE SWAT TEAMS AND SWAT LIKE FORCES ARE APPROPRIATE AND THAT IS SOME OF THE KINDS OF EMERGENCY SITUATIONS YOU DESCRIBED WHERE YOU'RE USING

VIOLENCE AND FORCE IN OVERWHELMING FORCE TO DIFFUSE AN ALREADY VIOLENT SITUATION. SO, YOU HAVE LIVES AT IMMEDIATE RISK. I THINK IN THAT SENSE, THE USE OF SWAT TACTICS IS APPROPRIATE AND THAT IS ACTUALLY WHAT SWAT TEAMS WERE ORIGINALLY INTENDED TO DO. THE PROBLEM TODAY IS SWAT TEAMS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY USED TO SERVE WARRANTS ON PEOPLE SUSPECTED OF DRUG CRIMES. WE HAVE GONE FROM USING THIS KIND OF FORCE TO APPREHEND PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE PROCESS OF COMMITTING VIOLENT CRIME TO USING THEM OVERWHELMINGLY TO SERVE WARRANTS ON PEOPLE MERELY SUSPECTED OF NONVIOLENT CONSENSUAL CRIMES. THAT IS A DRAMATIC SHIFT IN HOW THAT FORCE IS USED. INSTEAD OF DIFFUSING A VIOLENT SITUATION WHEN YOU BREAK INTO SOMEBODY'S HOUSE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT TO SERVE A WARRANT, YOU'RE ACTUALLY CREATING VIOLENCE AND CONFRONTATION WHERE THERE WAS NONE. I THINK THAT IS THE PROBLEM. THE OTHER THING I WOULD ADD IS THAT, YOU KNOW, AS HORRIFIC AS THESE MASS SHOOTING INCIDENTS ARE, THEY ARE STILL EXCEPTIONALLY RARE. WE THINK THEY ARE MORE COMMON THAN THEY ARE BECAUSE THEY GET

SO MUCH MEDIA COVERAGE. THERE IS A SOCIOLOGIST WHO SPECIALIZES IN SCHOOL VIOLENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA, WHO HAS ACTUALLY CRUNCHED THE NUMBERS AND FOUND THE AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL OR COLLEGE CAMPUS CAN EXPECT TO SEE ONE HOMICIDE, NOT EVEN A MASS SHOOTING, ONCE EVERY 4 OR 5,000 YEARS. SO THE IDEA THAT EVERY COLLEGE CAMPUS NEEDS A SWAT TEAM BECAUSE OF VIRGINIA TECH OR COLUMBINE, THAT IS USUALLY THE ARGUMENT THAT IS MADE AND THERE ARE CAMPUSES THAT HAVE THEIR OWN SWAT TEAMS. THERE IS NOT A LOT OF DATA TO SUPPORT THAT AND ONCE A CAMPUS OR COLLEGE TOWN HAS A SWAT TEAM THERE IS PLENTY OF DRUG ACTIVITIES, THEN, TO KEEP THE SWAT TEAM BUSY EVEN IF ONE OF THOSE EMERGENCY SITUATIONS NEVER HAPPENS. >> YOU DESCRIBED THE PROCESS OF GOING FROM MAYBERRY TO THIS HYPER MILITARIZED STYLE OF POLICING AS TAKING DECADES AND YOU DESCRIBE IT AS ALMOST -- AS THOUGH WE HAVE BEEN FROGS IN A POT SLOWLY BEING BROUGHT TO A BOIL. WHY DID WE NOT NOTICE THIS WAS HAPPENING? >> WELL, I MEAN IN PART

BECAUSE WE WERE, YOU KNOW, OUR POLITICAL LEADERS WERE SCARING US. THEY WERE CONSTANTLY TELLING US, YOU KNOW, HOW TERRIBLE CRIME WAS, THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT CRIME WAS OUT OF CONTROL. FOR A LONG TIME, THE PARTIES WERE SORT OF COMPETING ABOUT WHO COULD, YOU KNOW, APPEAR THE TOUGHEST ON CRIME AND DO THE MOST TO GIVE POLICE PROSECUTORS MORE POWER AND STRIP CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS OF THEIR RIGHTS. THROUGHOUT THE 80'S AND 90'S THE ESCALATION OF THE DRUG WAR WAS BASICALLY ABOUT TAKING THE DRUG WAR METAPHOR AND MAKING IT VERY LITERAL. REAGAN ADMINISTRATION AND THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR A LONG TIME WERE PUSHING TO BRING THE ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY IN TO FIGHT THE DRUG WAR. THEY WANTED MARINES CONDUCTING DRUG RAIDS. THEY WANTED THE NAVY TO BE BOARDING SHIPS AND SEARCHING PEOPLE FOR DRUGS. THAT IS KIND OF TERRIFYING. THE IDEA THAT THE MILITARY WOULD HAVE A DAY-TO-DAY ROLE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THESE ARE -- THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT USUALLY HAPPENS IN FREE SOCIETIES OR IF IT DOES THEY DON'T STAY FREE

FOR VERY LONG. I THINK IT IS A HEALTHY THING THAT ONE REASON WHY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN WAS THE MILITARY ITSELF PUT UP STRONG OBJECTIONS AND THE MILITARY ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS ITS ROLE, ITS PROPER ROLE BETTER THAN A LOT OF POLITICIANS DO. UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, WHILE WE HAVE THIS TRADITION IN THE U.S. OF KEEPING THE MILITARY OUT OF DOMESTIC LAW ENFORCEMENT AND HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB OF STICKING TO THAT, WHERE WE DROPPED THE BALL, IS WE HAVE ALLOWED OUR POLICE TO BECOME MORE LIKE SOLDIERS. AND, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IF YOUR WORRY, IF YOUR FEAR IS THAT THESE ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT JOBS, THEY ARE. SOLDIERS JOB IS TO KILL PEOPLE AND BREAK THINGS TO ANNIHILATE A FOREIGN ENEMY AND POLICE OFFICER'S JOB IS TO PROTECT OUR RIGHTS AND KEEP THE PEACE. IT WAS PUT THIS WAY, HE SAID, A POLICE OFFICER'S JOB IS TO MAKE DECISIONS, SOLDIERS JOB IS TO FOLLOW ORDERS; TWO DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS. THE FACT THAT THEY BOTH CARRY A WEAPON AND USE FORCE DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE INTERCHANGEABLE SKILL SETS. SO WE HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB OF KEEPING THE MILITARY OUT OF DOMESTIC LAW ENFORCEMENT. WHERE WE DROPPED THE BALL IS WE HAVE ALLOWED COPS TO INCREASINGLY ACT AND ASSUME

THE MIND SET OF SOLDIERS. AND, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE CONCERNED THAT THE TWO JOBS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE, THAT IS KIND OF A DISTINCTION WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE. >> HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, POLICE OFFICERS HAVE RECEIVED MILITARY STYLE COMBAT TRAINING AT A U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY TRAINING CENTER IN THE EAST MOUNTAINS. THEY ARE TRAINED IN THINGS LIKE ROLLING DAY AND NIGHT CONVEY AMBUSHES FROM FORMER NAVY SEALS. IS TRAINING THE WAY WE TRAIN OUR POLICE OFFICERS NOW PART OF THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE HAVING? >> ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THERE ARE PROBLEMS TRAINING IN TERMS OF GIVING DOMESTIC POLICE MILITARY STYLE TRAINING. I THINK ALSO, AND THIS IS A BIG ISSUE IN ALBUQUERQUE RIGHT NOW, IS THAT HOW WE TRAIN POLICE OFFICERS IN LETHAL FORCE HAS ALSO UNDERGONE SOME PRETTY SIGNIFICANT CHANGES OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. I HAVE INTERVIEWED PEOPLE WHO TRAIN POLICE OFFICERS, BOTH ACTUAL POLICE OFFICERS TRAINING IN ACADEMIES AND SO THE FORTH, BUT ALSO PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES THAT TRAIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE.

THEY SAY THERE HAS BEEN A NOTICEABLE SHIFT OVER THE YEARS, WHERE LETHAL FORCE TRAINING USED TO BE ABOUT DE-ESCALATION AND CONFLICT RESOLUTION AND EMPHASIZED THIS IDEA IF YOU HAVE TO USE LETHAL FORCE, YOU HAVE FAILED IN YOUR JOB AS A POLICE OFFICER, LIKE YOUR CHIEF RESPONSIBILITY IS TO USE THE LEAST AMOUNT OF FORCE POSSIBLE. TODAY, THE TRAINING OVERWHELMINGLY EMPHASIZES HOW TO JUSTIFY FORCE AFTER YOU HAVE USED IT. SO IT IS MORE ABOUT SORT OF MAKING SURE THAT YOUR DEPARTMENT DOESN'T GET SUED AND YOU DON'T GET CRIMINALLY CHARGED AND YOU DON'T GET PERSONALLY SUED. THAT IS A DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE AND THERE IS ALSO SOME NEW SORT OF THEORIES EMERGED IN LETHAL FORCE TRAINING. IDEA OF FORCE SCIENCE OR KILL ZONE THEORY, THIS IDEA THAT ACTUALLY POLICE OFFICERS AREN'T KILLING PEOPLE OFTEN ENOUGH, THAT THEY ARE HESITATING AND THEY NEED TO GET OVER THEIR HESITATION. AND YOU SEE THIS PHILOSOPHY IN A LOT OF POLICE MAGAZINES, POLICE WEBSITES, AND AGAIN, IT IS A KIND OF A BATTLEFIELD

MENTALITY, THIS IDEA THAT POLICING, YOU KNOW, OFFICIAL MOTTO OF POLICING MAY BE TO PROTECT AND SERVE. THE UNOFFICIAL MOTTO, IF YOU LOOK AT A LOT OF WEBSITES, POLICING WEBSITES NOW IS, WHATEVER I NEED TO DO TO GET HOME AT NIGHT, WHICH IS A KIND OF A BATTLEFIELD APPROACH TO THE JOB MORE THAN ONE THAT IS ABOUT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. >> YOU ACTUALLY BLAME POLITICIANS FOR THIS PROBLEM, FOR THE LAWS, POLICIES AND PROCEDURES THEY PUT IN PLACE, THAT YOU SAY PROMOTE AN US VERSUS THEM ATTITUDE, THAT ISOLATE COPS FROM THE CITIZENS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SERVE AND THAT WE ARE SELECTING FOR POLICE OFFICER IN OUR RECRUITING WHO ARE AGGRESSIVE -- ATTRACTED TO AN AGGRESSIVE ANTAGONISTIC STYLE OF POLICING. WHAT SHOULD WE BE LOOKING FOR IN OUR RECRUITS? >> WELL, I MEAN, GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, YOU CAN GO TO YOUTUBE AND TYPE IN POLICE RECRUITING VIDEO. YOU'LL GET A LOT OF RETURNS AND IT IS NOT ALL THE VIDEOS BUT IT IS A DISTURBINGLY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF THEM, IMAGING

POLICE OFFICERS REPELLING OUT OF HELICOPTERS AND SHOOTING THINGS AND SICKING DOGS ON PEOPLE AND KICKING DOWN DOORS. AND, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE THE VIDEOS THAT THESE POLICE DEPARTMENTS SEND TO HIGH SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES TO RECRUIT PEOPLE TO BECOME OFFICERS. THIS IS THE VERY FIRST STEP IN OUR PROCESS OF HOW WE ADMINISTER CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND WE'RE DELIBERATELY APPEALING TO PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, WANT TO KICK ASS AND TAKE NAMES, RIGHT? THERE IS NO -- THESE VIDEOS DON'T EMPHASIZE COMMUNITY SERVICE. THERE IS NO -- THERE ARE PRECIOUS FEW IMAGES OF OFFICERS HELPING PEOPLE. IT IS ALL ABOUT GETTING THE ABOUT BAD GUYS AND IF YOU THINK BACK, FOR EXAMPLE, HIGH SCHOOL, THINK ABOUT PEOPLE YOU WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL WITH AND THINK ABOUT WHO WOULD WATCH ONE OF THOSE VIDEOS, YOU KNOW, AND SAY YES THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO DO FOR A LIVING. THINK BACK AND THOSE ARE THE LAST PEOPLE I WANT TO GIVE A GUN AND A BADGE TO. I THINK THAT THE RECRUITING THING, RECRUITING VIDEOS, THEY ARE A SYMPTOM OF A LARGER PROBLEM, WHICH IS THAT WE EMPHASIZE THE WRONG ASPECTS OF POLICING. IT IS MORE REACTIONARY, MORE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, USING FORCE AND

INCREASINGLY MORE FORCE IN INCREASINGLY PETTY SITUATIONS AS OPPOSED TO EMPHASIZING COMMUNITY SERVICE AND PROTECT AND SERVE ASPECTS. >> YOU BROUGHT UP IN THE BOOK THE VIOLENT CLASHES BETWEEN PROTESTORS AND POLICE AT THE 1999 WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION EVENT IN SEATTLE AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO DEAL WITH A PROTEST, THAT THEY WERE OVERLY AGGRESSIVE AND THAT THEY ESCALATED THE SITUATION. WE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE HAD SEVERAL DAYS OF PROTESTS THAT SURPRISED THE COMMUNITY IN THEIR ANTAGONISM BETWEEN THE POLICE AND PROTESTORS. HOW SHOULD POLICE HANDLE PROTESTS? >> WELL, I GUESS THE BEST WAY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION IS GIVE YOU A GOOD EXAMPLE. SO, CHRIS BURBANK, POLICE CHIEF IN SALT LAKE CITY, WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER PRETTY FORWARD-THINKING POLICE CHIEF, SEVERAL YEARS AGO DURING THE OCCUPY PROTEST, A HOMELESS PERSON DIED IN A TENT IN ONE OF THE OCCUPYING ENCAMPMENTS, A CARBON MONOXIDE SITUATION.

WEATHER WAS GETTING COLD AND THERE WAS A HEATER IN THE TENT. BUT IN ANY CASE, THE CITY COUNCIL VOTED IT WAS TIME TO EVICT THE OCCUPY PROTESTORS FROM THIS PARK. SO CHIEF BURBANK, IT WAS HIS JOB TO DO THE EVICTION. SO HE ACTUALLY SHOWED UP THE DAY BEFORE IN UNIFORM, BLUE UNIFORM, AND MET WITH THE LEADERS OF THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT AND SAID, "LOOK, I HAVE TO DO THIS. THE CITY TOLD ME TO DO THIS. WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THIS IN A WAY AMENABLE TO BOTH SIDES." HE SAID, "YOU KNOW, YOU CAN LEAVE VOLUNTARILY, OR WE CAN ARREST YOU. WE CAN ARREST YOU IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE SORT OF GIVING YOURSELF UP FOR YOUR CAUSE." SO WHEN IT CAME TIME TO ACTUALLY DO THE EVICTION, THEY HAD THESE CONVERSATIONS, HE TREATED THEM LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. HE HAD GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO FACILITATE THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. SO, IT WAS A VERY PEACEFUL EVICTION AND IT WAS ONE OF THE FEW SITUATIONS WHERE YOU ACTUALLY HAD OCCUPY LEADERS PRAISING THE WAY THE POLICE HANDLED THEIR EVICTION, AFTER THE FACT. >> AFTER THE FACT. YOU DESCRIBE HOW THESE SWAT TEAM, TASK FORCES, SPECIAL SQUADS AND LEADERSHIP ARE OFTEN

NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY THE MAYORS OR CITY COUNCILS IN THE CITIES THAT THEY SERVE, AND THEIR WORK ISN'T LOOKED AT CRITICALLY BY THE JUDGES WHO ARE RUBBER STAMPING THEM. HOW CAN POLICE MAKE THEIR COMMUNITIES MORE ACCOUNTABLE TO OF THE PUBLIC? >> I MEAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF REFORMS THAT HAVE BEEN TRIED. CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARDS ARE A GOOD STEP, PROVIDED THEY HAVE SUBPOENA POWER AND THAT THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE TEETH. YOU KNOW, I THINK A BIG PART OF NO REAL POLITICAL ACCOUNTABILITY. SO, IN SITUATIONS LIKE ALBUQUERQUE, FOR EXAMPLE, A LOT OF CITIZENS OF ALBUQUERQUE MAY BE UPSET WITH THE WAY THE POLICE ARE HANDLING SOME OF THESE USE OF FORCE SITUATIONS, BUT, YOU KNOW, UNTIL THE MAYOR AND CITY COUNCIL AND ELECTED OFFICIALS -- UNTIL THEY KNOW THERE IS A POLITICAL PRICE FOR NOT HOLDING THE POLICE ACCOUNTABLE, THEY ARE GOING TO DO COST BENEFITS ANALYSIS ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AND A LOT OF THESE DECISIONS -- WE LIKE TO

THINK OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS JUST DO THE RIGHT THING EVERY TIME, REGARDLESS OF POLITICS, BUT THEY ARE GOING TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE ELECTION AND THINKING ABOUT THE POWER OF THE POLICE UNIONS AND PEOPLE VOTE ON LAW AND ORDER ISSUES. PEOPLE TEND NOT TO VOTE ON POLICE ABUSE OF POWER ISSUES. >> AREN'T THESE TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO HAVE VIOLENT INTERACTIONS WITH THE POLICE? >> ABSOLUTELY. THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM, PEOPLE WHO TEND TO BE ON THE RECEIVING END OF POLICE ABUSE AND EXCESSIVE FORCE ARE POLITICALLY POWERLESS PEOPLE, PEOPLE WITH LESS POLITICAL POWER. BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE POLITICAL POWER WHO CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES AND I THINK ONE WAY TO SORT OF EFFECT MEANINGFUL REFORM AND CHANGE IS TO MAKE THIS A POLITICAL ISSUE. THESE SHOULD BE ISSUES THAT ARE DISCUSSED AT ELECTIONS DURING CAMPAIGNS AND MAYORAL ELECTIONS. POLICE ABUSE VERY RARELY IF EVER COMES UP, BECAUSE NEITHER CANDIDATE WANTS TO SORT OF LOOK ANTI-POLICE OR ANTI-COP.

THAT GOES BACK TO THE POLITICAL POWER OF POLICE ORGANIZATIONS, BUT, IF YOU FORCE THE ISSUE -- >> DOESN'T IT ALSO GO BACK TO THE POWER OF THE PUBLIC WHO DEMAND TO BE PROTECTED? >> THAT TOO, BUT I GUESS WHAT I AM SAYING, THOUGH, IS IF YOU LOOK AT POLLING, THE POLLING OPINIONS PENDULUM IS SWINGING BACK THE OTHER DIRECTION. WE HAVE HAD A GENERATION OF THE PUBLIC ONLY -- THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE POSITION ON CRIME IS WE ARE NOT TOUGH ENOUGH ON IT. THINGS ARE SWITCHING BACK IF YOU LOOK AT THINGS ON POLLS ON INCARCERATION, ON MARIJUANA, POLICE MILITARIZATION, THE PUBLIC IS MOVING THE OTHER WAY. I THINK THERE IS A SENSE THAT THINGS ARE GOING TOO FAR, BUT PEOPLE AREN'T VOTING ON THOSE ISSUES YET AND SO IT BECOMES KIND OF A ONE-WAY RATCHET EFFECT, WHERE WHEN WE ARE AFRAID OF CRIME WE WANT TOUGHER POLICIES. WHEN THE POLICIES HAVE GONE TOO FAR, MAYBE WE AGREE THEY HAVE GONE TOO FAR, BUT WE DON'T VOTE ON THAT. UNTIL ACTIVISTS START IMPOSING A POLITICAL PRICE ON ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO DON'T DO THE RIGHT

THING, THAT SORT OF ONE-WAY RATCHET EFFECT WILL CONTINUE. >> YOU LAY A LITTLE BLAME HERE ON CONGRESS, TOO, FOR SENDING A MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF ASSAULT STYLE RIFLES, NIGHT VISION SCOPES, TANK LOOKING VEHICLES, AND GRANTS FOR PROGRAMS TO LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS. DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE LOOKED A AT THAT CRITICALLY? I MEAN SHOULD WE BE PUTTING MORE PRESSURE ON THEM TO DIG DEEP INTO THE BUDGET BILLS WHERE THESE THINGS LIE? >> WELL, THERE ARE A COUPLE THINGS GOING ON. FIRST, SINCE ABOUT THE EARLY 80'S, UNOFFICIALLY, AND THEN OFFICIALLY SINCE THE MID 90'S, THE PENTAGON HAS BEEN GIVING AWAY SURPLUS MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO POLICE DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THIS IS STUFF DESIGNED TO BE USED ON THE BATTLEFIELD; GUNS, TANKS, ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIERS, GRENADE LAUNCHERS. SO THAT'S ONE AREA. AND SO, ONCE THAT STUFF GETS TO THE POLICE, TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS, THERE IS A WE HAVE IT, WE MIGHT AS WELL USE IT MENTALITY KIND OF TAKES OVER.

ALSO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN YOU'RE USING EQUIPMENT THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR USE IN WAR, IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE TO THINK THE PEOPLE USING THAT EQUIPMENT MIGHT ADOPT THE MENTALITY AS IF THEY ARE AT WAR. YOU COMBINE THAT, THEN, WITH FEDERAL GRANTS, BURN GRANT, COPS GRANTS, HIGH DENSITY DRUG TRAFFICKING AREA GRANTS THAT ARE TIED SOLELY TO POLICING IF YOU SEND SWAT TEAM OUT TO ARREST A SUSPECTED MURDERER OR RAPIST, THERE IS NO FEDERAL MONEY THAT COMES WITH THAT. IF YOU SEND YOU SWAT TEAM OUT TO ARREST A COUPLE OF LOW LEVEL MARIJUANA OFFENDERS, THERE IS FEDERAL MONEY CONNECTED TO THAT. SO, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THIS, LET'S SAY YOU ARE A SMALL TOWN POLICE CHIEF OR SHERIFF, YOU GET ALL THIS COOL GEAR FROM THE PENTAGON, YOU START A SWAT TEAM WITH IT, BECAUSE WHY NOT, EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IT, THEN YOU CAN KEEP YOUR SWAT TEAM IN RESERVE AND WAIT FOR ONE OF THOSE SORT OF LEGITIMATE USES OF SWAT TEAM, ACTIVE SHOOTER OR A HOSTAGE TAKING, THAT IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN YOUR TOWN. SO YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO USE YOUR SWAT TEAM OR YOU CAN

START USING TO YOUR SWAT TEAM TO SERVE DRUG WARRANTS AND GENERATING REVENUE FOR YOUR POLICE DEPARTMENT. SO, I THINK, CONGRESS AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS SET THESE INCENTIVES AND SET THE STAGE FOR THIS MASSIVE EXPLOSION WE HAVE SEEN IN THE NUMBER AND USE OF SWAT TEAMS. THE LATE 70'S THERE WERE ABOUT 300 SWAT DEPLOYMENTS PER YEAR ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, ABOUT 300. BY EARLY 80'S, WE WERE LOOKING AT 2 TO 3,000. BY 2005 IT IS UP TO 50,000. THAT IS THE LAST TIME THAT THIS PARTICULAR CRIMINOLOGIST, WHO PUT THOSE NUMBERS IN THE SURVEY, ESTIMATES SOMEWHERE BETWEEN, 75, 80, EVEN 100,000 PER YEAR. THAT IS A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THAT KIND OF FORCE IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. THERE HAS NEVER REALLY BEEN A GOOD PUBLIC DISCUSSION OR PUBLIC DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THAT IS APPROPRIATE. >> HOW COULD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INCENTIVIZE A FORM OF POLICING THAT WOULD RESTORE BALANCE OF POWER BETWEEN CITIZENS AND POLICE? >> I THINK, I MEAN, I THINK THE MAIN THING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD DO IS STOP DOING HARM. TO STOP THESE WEAPONS

TRANSFERS. DHS HAS ANOTHER PROGRAM WHERE THEY GIVE GRANTS TO POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO BUY NEW MILITARY EQUIPMENT. AND THAT IS ACTUALLY GIVING RISE TO THIS COTTAGE INDUSTRY. AT LEAST THE PENTAGON STUFF, THAT WAS ALL SURPLUS STUFF SITTING IN A WAREHOUSE SOMEWHERE. DHS GRANTS ARE BUYING NEW GEAR, GIVING RISE TO THIS COTTAGE INDUSTRY OF COMPANIES THAT EXIST TO MAKE THIS NEW GEAR IN EXCHANGE FOR THESE DHS GRANTS WHICH THEY ARE GOING TO OPEN LOBBYING OFFICES IN WASHINGTON TO MAKE SURE THE PROGRAMS CONTINUE AND EXPAND. NOW YOU HAVE A PROGRAM THAT SORT OF FEEDS OFF OF ITSELF. SO, ENDING THAT PROGRAM, ENDING THESE GRANTS THAT ARE SOLELY TIED TO DRUG POLICING, WHICH, NOT ONLY ENCOURAGE THIS KIND OF MILITARIZATION, BUT THEY ALSO WARP THE PRIORITIES OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS. YOU KNOW, WHY WOULD YOU -- WHY SEND YOUR POLICE OFFICERS OUT TO DO COMMUNITY POLICING, TO INVESTIGATE MAYBE SIMPLE ASSAULTS OR PROPERTY CRIMES THAT OFTEN GO UNADDRESSED WHEN YOU CAN SEND THEM OUT AFTER POT SMOKERS AND ACTUALLY BRING IN MONEY. SO, ENDING ALL THOSE PROGRAM WOULD HELP. I AM NOT SURE THERE IS A WHOLE LOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN

DO IN TERMS OF REINING IN HOW SWAT TEAMS ARE USED NOW THAT THEY ARE AT THE POINT WHERE WE ARE AT. I THINK THAT IS GOING TO HAVE TO COME WITH THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL. BUT THERE ARE THINGS THEY COULD DO. A CITY COUNCIL COULD PASS A LAW, THIS IS A LAW I ALWAYS RECOMMEND, SAYING THAT POLICE CAN ONLY BREAK INTO A PRIVATE RESIDENCE, FORCIBLY ENTER A PRIVATE RESIDENCE, IF A VIOLENT CRIME EITHER IS IN PROCESS OF BEING COMMITTED OR WILL BE COMMITTED WITHOUT POLICE INTERVENTION. THAT WILL ELIMINATE A LOT OF THESE RAIDS FOR DRUG OFFENSES. THERE ARE SWAT RAIDS NOW FOR REGULATORY OFFENSES. ST. LOUIS COUNTY, IN FACT, EVERY SEARCH WARRANT IS NOW SERVED WITH A SWAT TEAM REGARDLESS. THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT SERVES EVERYONE WITH A SWAT TEAM. THE LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES DO THEIR OWN THING. SO, I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO STOP DOING HARM AND MOST OF THE CHANGE WILL COME FROM STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL. >> WE HAVE JUST SEEN HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, A CONSENT DECREE BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT OF

JUSTICE AND THE CITY. HOW HAVE YOU SEEN SIMILAR AGREEMENTS PLAY OUT IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS? >> WELL, SO I AM GOING TO BE CYNICAL AND NEGATIVE HERE, BUT LET ME START ON POSITIVES. I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE DOJ DOES THIS OVERSIGHT AND I THINK ACTUALLY OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DESERVES A LOT OF CREDIT FOR REVAMPING THE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION AND USING IT TO FIGHT POLICE MISCONDUCT AND EXCESSIVE FORCE. THAT SAID, THE HISTORY OF THIS PROGRAM AND THESE CONSENT DECREES, DOESN'T GIVE A LOT OF HOPE FOR OPTIMISM. THERE ARE CERTAIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN UNDER CONSENT DECREES FOR A LONG TIME AND FEDERAL MONITORING THAT HASN'T PRODUCED A LOT IN THE WAY OF REDUCTION IN THE INCIDENTS OF BRUTALITY. >> WHY IS THAT? >> I AM SPEAKING ANECDOTALLY, DON'T KNOW OF FORMAL STUDIES. THE MAIN REASON WHY THAT IS, BECAUSE THERE IS NO REAL ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM. THEY CAN CRITICIZE POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND IN SOME CASES

THEY TAKE A POLICE DEPARTMENT TO COURT AND REALLY EXTREME CASES THEY MIGHT FILE CIVIL RIGHTS CHARGES AGAINST INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS, BUT IN TERMS, OF, LIKE, JUST SORT OF THE UNDERLYING CULTURE IN TERMS OF HOLDING INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE, THERE IS JUST NOT -- THERE AREN'T A LOT OF WAYS FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO ENFORCE. >> IT IS LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE, ARE YOU SAYING THEY JUST DON'T DO IT? >> THEY DON'T DO IT, BECAUSE THERE AREN'T RESOURCES AND ALSO A QUESTION OF SORT OF HOW -- LEGALLY, HOW DO YOU ENFORCE IT? YOU KNOW. THE DEPARTMENT CAN SORT OF, ON PAPER, IMPLEMENT ALL OF THE SUGGESTIONS IN THE CONSENT DECREE, BUT STILL NOT, YOU KNOW, HOLD OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE. FOR EXAMPLE, PART OF THE CONSENT DECREE IS THAT POLICE OFFICERS NEED TO BE HELD CRIMINALLY ACCOUNTABLE WHEN THEY VIOLATE PEOPLE'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, THAT STILL DEPENDS ON THE LOCAL PROSECUTOR BRINGING CHARGES AGAINST THE OFFICER. WELL, THE LOCAL PROSECUTOR IS A POLITICALLY-ELECTED POSITION. IF THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMUNITY ARE ELECTING DISTRICT ATTORNEYS

WHO ARE GOING TO BE DEFERENTIAL TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NOT A WHOLE LOT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CAN DO ABOUT THAT. THEY CAN BRING CHARGES OF THEIR OWN, BUT THEY HAVE LIMITED RESOURCES. THEY HAVE TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHERE THEY FIGHT THEIR BATTLES. SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I THINK IT IS GOOD THAT THE DOJ IS DOING THIS. I THINK CONSENT DECREES ARE MUCH BETTER THAN DOING NOTHING. IF NOTHING ELSE THEY DRAW ATTENTION TO A CITY AND THEY FOSTER DISCUSSIONS LIKE THE ONE THAT IS HAPPENING IN ALBUQUERQUE RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS MUCH NEEDED. BUT I THINK, IF YOU WANT REAL SORT OF EFFECTIVE CHANGE, YOU HAVE TO -- ALBUQUERQUE HAS TO DO IT ITSELF. YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RELY ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO CLEAN THINGS UP. >> RADLEY BALKO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN AND SHARING YOUR PERSPECTIVE WITH US. THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON. >> I ALWAYS THINK THAT WHILE ALL THE REVIEW BOARDS AND ALL THE OVERSIGHT, THE MONITOR, THAT IS ALL VERY APPROPRIATE FOR THE SITUATION. I WONDER IF THE THING THAT

WILL HAVE THE BIGGER EFFECT ARE OFFICERS KNOWING THERE IS >> IT WAS A HISTORIC NIGHT THIS WEEK FOR NEW MEXICO REPUBLICANS. FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 60 PLUS STATE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND, STEVE, ON A POLITICAL LEVEL WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR DEMOCRATS IN THE STATE HOUSE? JUST A SIMPLE QUESTION, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THEM? >> WELL, IT MEANS THEY DON'T GET MEANS THEY DON'T CONTROL THE FLOW OF ACTION ON THE FLOOR. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME SINCE EISENHOWER WAS FIRST ELECTED AND I THINK I AM THE OLDEST PERSON AT THIS TABLE. THAT WAS BEFORE I WAS BORN, SO THIS IS THE FIRST TIME. THERE MAY BE SOME REPUBLICANS WHO WANT SOME PAYBACK. THEY FELT LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE MINORITY SO LONG AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TREATED WELL. NOT ALL OF THEM FEEL THAT WAY, BUT, THERE MAY BE A LITTLE BIT OF PAYBACK INVOLVED, MAYBE A LITTLE OVERREACH. THE THING IS, AS FAR AS LEGISLATION GOES, THEY'LL PASS A LOT MORE REPUBLICAN-ORIENTED

LEGISLATION THAN EVER BEFORE, BUT THE SENATE IS STILL CONTROLLED BY DEMOCRATS. MICHAEL SANCHEZ IS STILL MAJORITY LEADER AND THERE IS A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS THAT WILL JOIN WITH REPUBLICANS ON CERTAIN THINGS BUT SANCHEZ WILL BE THE BACKSTOP HERE FOR DEMOCRATS. >> SURE. INTERESTING POINT STEVE JUST MADE, JULIE ANN, THERE ARE CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE, CERTAINLY. NEW COALITIONS FORMING PERHAPS, NEW TYPES OF LEGISLATION BEING OFFERED WITH THE NOSE COUNT KNOWING YOU CAN COUNT ON A FEW DEMOCRATS. >> I THINK WE MIGHT SEE THAT. INITIATIVES THAT MAKE IT ALL THE WAY TO THE GOVERNOR'S DESK MAY BE MORE CERTAIN ACTION BY THE GOVERNOR, THAN SOME OF THE THINGS WE SAW LAST SESSION THAT HIT THE POCKET VETO. SO THAT WILL BE CURIOUS TO WATCH UNFOLD. >> THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE TO THE LEGISLATURE, MUST CHANGE A LITTLE BIT NOW AT THIS POINT AS WELL. MIGHT THEY BE EXCITED ABOUT GETTING SOME THINGS MOVING?

>> I IMAGINE FROM THE HOUSE, I ABOUT BEING ABLE TO JUST BEGIN TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ON ISSUES THAT WEREN'T A MAJOR PART OF THE CONVERSATION BEFORE. WITH THE ABILITY TO DESIGNATE COMMITTEE CHAIRMEN, COMMITTEE CHAIRMEN REALLY HAVE KIND OF A SOLE DISCRETION OVER WHAT THE COMMITTEE HEARS ON ANY GIVEN DAY AND A LOT OF KIND OF PARTISAN PET PROJECT KIND OF PROPOSALS OFTEN JUST GO UNTALKED ABOUT. AND I THINK THAT WILL CHANGE WHEN YOU CHANGE THE -- WHEN YOU HAVE REPUBLICAN COMMITTEE CHAIRS. AND AS A RESULT, REALLY THE WHOLE DYNAMIC WILL CHANGE. WE'RE GOING TO START SEEING DEBATE ON THE FLOOR OF THE LEGISLATION THAT WOULD HAVE NEVER HAD A COMMITTEE HEARING. >> SURE. >> LONNA, THE OTHER IDEA KIND OF GOING OUT THERE, WHO IS GOING -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS -- WHO IS GOING TO RUN THE WHOLE SHOW NOW? WHO IS GOING TO BE SPEAKER? THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING SITUATION.

WANT EVERYBODY TO TALK ABOUT THAT. I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR OPINION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED FOR LOCAL REPUBLICANS. AGAIN, IS IT AS SIMPLE AS THE REPUBLICAN TIDE FOR LOCAL LEGISLATORS OR WAS THERE SOMETHING ELSE AT PLAY HERE FOR THE ELECTORATE. >> THERE IS A COMBINATION OF THERE IS A LOT OF SPENDING SO NOT JUSTED TIDE. THERE WAS A LOT OF OUTSIDE GROUPS WERE WORKING IN LOCAL RACES AND THOSE MADE A DIFFERENCE IN THE LONG RUN, MONEY MATTERS. >> SPEAKER. WHAT IS THE RUNNING BET RIGHT NOW? >> JIM AND WERE JUST GETTING IT PUT TOGETHER, BUT, DON TRIPP FROM SOCORRO IS VERY POPULAR AMONG REPUBLICANS. HE HAS EXPRESSED INTEREST. NATE GENTRY, WHO HAS BEEN THE WHIP, HE HAS EXPRESSED INTEREST AND I HAVE HEARD DENNIS ROCH FROM -- WHAT IS HIS TOWN, NORTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO, AND SO THERE COULD BE -- IT IS GOING TO BE INTERESTING. TRIPP, I THINK WAS QUOTED IN THE JOURNAL SAYING THERE IS 37 REPUBLICANS AND THAT IS AN EXAGGERATION. THERE MAY BE SOME MORE OUT THERE, BUT, I THINK THOSE

WOULD BE THE MAIN THREE TO WATCH. >> LET'S HANDICAP THOSE FOLKS. JULIE ANN GRIMM, IT WOULD SEEM NATURAL THAT THE WHIP WOULD BE THE NATURAL CHOICE. >> YOU HAD NATE GENTRY DOING A LOT OF WORK FOR CANDIDATES, FOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, YOU KNOW, HE HAS A PACK, RAISING A LOT OF MONEY. HE IS PASSING THAT MONEY AROUND, YOU KNOW, REPRESENTATIVE ANDY NUNEZ TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT GETTING MONEY FROM NATE GENTRY AND HOW THAT INFLUENCED HIS -- HE FLOPPED BACK TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR THIS. >> MR. GENTRY HAS HAD HIS SHARE OF NEWS INK LATELY FOR THINGS NOT POLITICALLY RELATED. MIGHT THAT HAVE IMPACT ON FOLKS' IDEAS ABOUT HAVING HIM AS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE? A LOT OF THINGS HAVE NOT SHAKEN OUT. >> I AM NOT SURE THAT THE REPUBLICAN VOTERS THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE INFLUENCE HERE, REALLY CARE ABOUT THAT. >> FAIR ENOUGH. HANDICAPPING WITH DON TRIPP. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT DON TRIPP'S CHANCES VERSUS A NATE GENTRY? >> I THINK THAT THERE IS A LOT -- OBVIOUSLY THERE IS

A LOT WE DON'T KNOW. THEY ARE GOING TO MEET ON SATURDAY TO BEGIN TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION. >> FIRST CAUCUS, YEAH. >> BUT, I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A PERCEPTION OF THE DEGREE THAT THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, THE GOVERNOR HERSELF, INFLUENCES THIS LEADERSHIP CHOICE. THE GOVERNOR SAID SHE DOESN'T INTEND TO DO THAT, BUT WE KNOW THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, NATE GENTRY IS A CLOSE ALLY OF THE GOVERNOR. NOT TO SAY DON TRIPP ISN'T, WE JUST KNOW THERE IS A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP THERE. I AM CURIOUS TO WHAT DEGREE THAT RELATIONSHIP WILL PLAY A FACTOR AS THE CAUCUS IS TRYING TO LOOK TO PUTTING ITS MOST SUCCESSFUL FOOT FORWARD. >> AGAIN, SORT OF ODD BALL OPINION. SAME I ASKED JULIE ABOUT NATE GENTRY, MIGHT THERE BE SOME HEARTBURN ABOUT NATE GENTRY OUT THERE AND YOUR PERCEPTION ABOUT HIM AS A LEADER AS OPPOSED TO A JUST A MONEY RAISER AND DOING THINGS FOR THE PARTY? >> AMONG THE ELECTED REPUBLICAN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, I

DON'T THINK THERE WOULD BE. THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE SEES HIM AS SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN ABLE TO KIND OF SHRUG OFF THE CRITICISM AND BE ABLE TO BE SUCCESSFUL DESPITE IT. AND THAT IS THE KIND OF PERSON THEY ARE LOOKING FOR, SOMEBODY THAT CAN TAKE ATTACKS AND ROLL WITH IT. >> WITH DEMOCRATS IN THE MINORITY NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW THEY FUNCTION. WE HAVE KENNY MARTINEZ IS NOT GOING TO BE SPEAKER BUT WHO ARE THE POWER PLAYERS NOW? IS IT NECESSARILY CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS WHO GET ALONG WITH THE MAJORITY NOW? >> I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A RESISTANCE AMONG THE DEMOCRATS. MIMI STEWART, LONG TIME LEGISLATOR, VERY PROGRESSIVE VOICE AND SHE HAD RUN FOR SPEAKER BEFORE A FEW YEARS AGO. AND OBVIOUSLY IS NOT GOING TO BE SPEAKER THIS TIME, NO DEMOCRAT IS, BUT SHE COULD ACTUALLY CHALLENGE KENNY FOR MAJORITY LEADER. I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HER. THIS IS SPECULATION ON MY PART, BUT THAT IS A NATURAL PERSON TO LOOK AT. >> THAT IS A NATURAL

CONSEQUENCE OF CHANGE, THE CHESS PIECES START MOVING AROUND, AMBITIOUS PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IT. >> THERE IS ANOTHER CHESS GAME AT PLAY HERE WITH IS SENATOR TIM KELLER IS NOT GOING TO BE SENATOR ANYMORE, AND I HAVE HEARD MIMI STEWART'S NAME GET THROWN OUT FOR A POSSIBLE REPLACEMENT THERE, ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF MACHINATION WOULD HAVE TO TAKE PLACE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. >> SHE WOULD HAVE TO GIVE UP LIKE 20 YEARS OR SENIORITY OR SOMETHING. >> HARD THING TO DO. >> DOES THIS ALL END UP TO GRIDLOCK? IS WHAT YOU HEAR GRIDLOCK? IS THIS A TRADITIONAL SET UP FOR THINGS NOT MOVING. >> I THINK IT IS MORE LIKELY TO MOVE NOW THAN BEFORE. YOU HAVE GOT AT LEAST ONE BRANCH OF THE GOVERNMENT, ONE BRANCH OF THE BICAMERAL LEGISLATURE SUPPORTING THE GOVERNOR'S POLICY AND WITH THE SENATE AND MORE CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS AND THE FACT THEY GET MORE VOICE IN THEIR LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, I THINK THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF MORE THINGS MOVING THROUGH. >> IS IT YOUR SENSE, I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU SAID, YOUR SENSE THAT THERE IS AN ECHO EFFECT IN THE SENATE AS WELL WHEN THE HOUSE HAS CHANGED OVER, THERE SOMETHING THAT HAS TO GO ON IN THE SENATE? >> THERE IS DEFINITELY A DYNAMIC, THEY ARE AWARE OF THE SITUATION AND THOSE

CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS ON THE SENATE SIDE AND THE FACT THAT SENATORS PLAY UNDER A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES MEANS THEY MIGHT BE MORE LIKELY TO TARGET SPECIFIC LEGISLATION OR LEGISLATION THEY CAN KIND FIND AGREEMENT ON. >> YOU MENTIONED EARLIER. ARE THERE SPECIFIC IDEAS AND LEGISLATION OUT THERE YOU CAN THINK OF THAT FOLKS HAVE BEEN GRINDING TO GET MOVING FORWARD THAT MIGHT HAVE A CHANCE NOW? >> I AM SPECULATING. I MEAN, I THINK THERE IS SPECULATION OF THE THINGS THAT ARE WAITING IN THE WINGS. THERE IS SPECULATION THAT A REPUBLICAN HOUSE MAY BE EAGER TO DISCUSS RIGHT TO WORK KIND OF ISSUES. THAT THEY WOULD BE EAGER TO DISCUSS VOTER ID REQUIREMENTS. THAT THEY WOULD CHANGE THE KIND OF CONVERSATION WE HAVE ABOUT REPEALING THE DRIVER'S LICENSE LAWS THAT PROVIDES FOR IMMIGRANTS IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY. SO, I THINK, THOSE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES THAT IT WOULD BE REASONABLE KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT NEW MEXICO REPUBLICANS, TO EXPECT TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS. >> COMING UP WE LOOK AT THE FUTURE OF THE ALBUQUERQUE

POLICE DEPARTMENT IN LIGHT OF A NEW CONSENT DECREE. >> THEY NEED TO FEEL VERY THEY NEED TO DO ALL THE DUE DILIGENCE, THAT THIS IS SAFE, AND WE'RE GOING TO TAKE YOU TO SPADES, AS BEST AS WE CAN. >> AFTER MONTHS OF NEGOTIATION, THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE AND DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT LAST WEEK THAT PROMISES A HUGE OVERHAUL OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT. LAST APRIL, THE DOJ RELEASED A DAMNING REPORT OF APD, CRITICIZING ITS USE OF FORCE PARTICULARLY BY SWAT TEAM. AMONG THE REQUIREMENTS ARE THE CREATION OF CIVILIAN POLICE OVERSIGHT AGENCY, A USE OF FORCE REVIEW BOARD AND THE CREATION OF A MENTAL HEALTH ADVISORY COMMITTEE. THE AGREEMENT ALSO PROVIDES FOR A MONITOR WHO WILL REPORT ON THE CITY'S COMPLIANCE TO THE DOJ, THE CITY, THE PUBLIC AND TO A FEDERAL JUDGE, WHO HAS THE POWER TO ENFORCE THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. NOW, MAYOR RICHARD J. BERRY ESTIMATES THE COST OF COMPLYING WILL BE BETWEEN FOUR MILLION

AND SIX MILLION DOLLARS AND WE HAD AN INTERVIEW EARLIER IN THE SHOW ABOUT THE NATIONAL TREND TOWARD POLICE MILITARIZATION. AND I WONDER IF IN YOUR GUT YOU FEEL LIKE THIS CONSENT DECREE IS A BIT OF AN ANTIDOTE TO THAT KIND OF THIS FOR OUR CITY. DOES THAT FORCE APD TO PULL BACK ON THE MILITARIZATION? >> THAT IS CERTAINLY THE INTENT, CONVERSATION. FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS IT REQUIRES TO DO, IS NOW IF A POLICE OFFICER EVEN SO MUCH AS POINTS A WEAPON AT SOMEONE, THEY HAVE TO DO PAPERWORK AND WRITE THAT UP AND EXPLAIN THAT AS A USE OF FORCE. SO, THAT CHANGES THE WAY OFFICERS HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE WAY USE FORCE. ACTUALLY POINTING A WEAPON AT SOMEONE IS A USE OF FORCE. SO, I THINK THAT WHAT THAT SUGGESTS IS THAT WE ARE GETTING AT SOME OF THE WILLIE NILLY LET'S JUST KIND OF TOUGH GUY MENTALITY THAT THERE IS A PERCEPTION OF HAPPENING WITHIN THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE.

>> BOTTOM LINE QUESTION FOR A LOT OF THE COMMUNITY, LONNA ATKESON CERTAINLY IS, AM I SAFER NOW? DO I TRUST MY POLICE DEPARTMENT MORE NOW? THE REAL BEDROCK QUESTIONS. DOES THIS CONSENT DECREE -- WE NEVER HAD ONE HERE, SO WE DON'T KNOW HOW WE ARE SUPPOSED TO FEEL ABOUT A CONSENT DECREE ABOUT OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT. EMOTIONALLY ARE WE IN A BETTER PLACE NOW AS CITIZENRY? SLIGHTLY BETTER PLACE. THAT WE KNOW THAT THERE IS POTENTIAL PROGRESS MOVING FORWARD AND I THINK THE FACT THERE IS A MONITOR AND THAT THERE IS SOMEONE WHO IS SORT OF AN EXTERNAL OBSERVER WHO CAN TAKE A LOOK AT IT AND HAVE OBLIGATIONS TO REPORT, MEANS THERE IS ACTUALLY ACCOUNTABILITY MECHANISMS WHICH IS A GOOD THING. >> THAT WAS PART OF THE DISCUSSION EARLY WAS THE MONITOR OR NO MONITOR. COULD WE ACTUALLY POLICE OURSELVES OR HAVING SOMEBODY LOOKING OVER THIS THING. I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE COMMUNITY DIALOGUE HERE, LIKE YOU SAID, SOMEONE WATCHING OVER, YOU KNOW, AND NOW THEY HAVE TO EXPRESS THAT TO THE PUBLIC. STEVE, AS YOU WATCHED THIS FROM SANTA FE AND OTHER THINGS GOING ON, WHEN YOU SEE A CONSENT

DECREE IN A POLICE DEPARTMENT FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN, DO YOU EXPECT SOMETHING DIFFERENT IMMEDIATELY? WOULD YOU REASONABLY EXPECT IT IN FIVE OR 10 YEARS. >> I THINK MAYBE WE'LL START SEEING FAIRLY SOON. ACTUALLY DECREASE, I THINK THAT WILL REALLY HELP. I KNOW A LOT OF THE OFFICERS ARE UPSET BY HAVING TO DO MORE PAPERWORK. IT IS GOING TO STOP ME FROM DRAWING MY GUN AND I MIGHT GET KILLED, BUT I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS GOING TO GET SHOT OVER PERCEIVED PAPERWORK. SO, I THINK IT IS A GOOD THING IN THE LONG RUN AND ACCOUNTABILITY, LIKE LONNA WAS TALKING ABOUT, IS VERY IMPORTANT. >> CAMERAS ARE A BIG DEAL CERTAINLY AND WE HAVE GOT SOME MOVEMENT ON THAT. BUT, AGAIN, THE IDEA, AS STEVE JUST SAID, THERE IS ALWAYS RESISTANCE INSIDE ANY INSTITUTION THERE IS RESISTANCE TO CHANGE, ISN'T THERE? IT IS A TOUGH ONE. >> WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THIS SETTLEMENT ARE THE ACCOUNTABILITY AND HOW THEY MIGHT WORK TOGETHER.

BECAUSE, WE TALKED ABOUT HOW THERE ARE A NUMBER OF APD OFFICERS THAT ARE RETIRING. THEY ARE GOING TO BE PULLING IN NEW OFFICERS THAT ARE GOING TO SORT OF GET A DIFFERENT TRAINING PERSPECTIVE THAN MOST OF THE FORCE THAT IS THERE NOW. I ALSO THINK THAT WHILE ALL THE REVIEW BOARDS AND ALL THE OVERSIGHT AND THE MONITOR, THAT IS ALL VERY APPROPRIATE FOR THE SITUATION. I WONDER IF THE THING THAT WILL HAVE THE BIGGER EFFECT ARE THE OFFICERS KNOWING THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY. WHEN AN OFFICER GETS IN TROUBLE, HE IS DISCIPLINED FOR NOT TURNING THE LAPEL CAMERA ON OR FOR USING HER TASER WHEN SHE WASN'T SUPPOSED TO. WILL THE OTHER OFFICERS BE DETERRED FROM MAKING INAPPROPRIATE ACTIONS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE IS MORE ACCOUNTABILITY. THAT IS WHAT I THINK WE MIGHT SEE FASTER. >> THAT MAKES SENSE, DOESN'T IT? IN FACT, THE PUBLIC WANTS TO KNOW HOW SOON CAN WE EXPECT THESE THINGS. >> ABSOLUTELY, AND I THINK IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT IS IN THE AGREEMENT, IT IS A 106 PAGES TO LAY THIS WHOLE THING OUT, MONTHS OF NEGOTIATION. BUT, I THINK THERE IS ELEMENTS

THAT MAKE IMMEDIATE CHANGES AND MAKE LONG-TERM CHANGES, BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY WE TALKED ABOUT FORCE FOR YEARS AS WE LOOKED AT THIS, THAT IT IS A CULTURE ISSUE. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT THE POINTING FIREARMS, THAT CHANGED THAT. OFFICERS NOW HAVE, USE OF THE TASERS ARE GOING TO BE AUDITED. THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT MAKE IMMEDIATE CHANGES. AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE NOW BEGINNING DEVELOPMENT OF NEW POLICIES OF HOW OFFICERS DEAL WITH MENTALLY ILL INDIVIDUALS, THEIR CONTACT. THE INTENT IS TO INCREASE CONTACT WITH THOSE KIND OF AT-RISK POPULATIONS. THOSE THINGS WILL TAKE TIME AND AS JULIE MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOW GOING TO START A WAVE OF HIRING TO FILL IN SOME OF THE, I GUESS, THE BACKFILL RETIREMENTS JUST TO KIND OF GETTING THEM UP TO SPEED WITH THIS NEW CULTURE, THAT TAKES TIME. >> WHERE DOES THE CHIEF END UP IN ALL OF THIS? IS HE IN A BETTER POSITION?

CAN HE NOW SAY, LOOK, WE HAVE GOT OUR MARCHING ORDERS. WE KNOW WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. IN CASE THERE IS A HICCUP, WE HAVE A WAY TO BACK ALL THIS STUFF UP? IS THAT BETTER FOR HIM AT THE TOP OF THE CHAIN? >> IT IS BETTER FOR HIM IN THAT THE MARCHING ORDERS ARE CLEAR BUT IT IS ALSO MORE DIFFICULT FOR HIM IN THAT THE PATH FORWARD HAS BEEN LAID OUT AND IF HE STRAYS FROM IT, IT WILL BE VERY CLEAR SO IN THAT REGARD, I THINK THAT HE WILL FACE MORE, MAYBE, HIGHER EXPECTATIONS OF ACCOUNTABILITY, BECAUSE, WE CAN SEE FROM THE OUTSIDE WHAT THE PATH THAT WE WERE EXPECTING HIM TO FOLLOW. >> FOLLOWING THE LONGER VIEW WHERE THE MAYOR HAS BEEN IN ON THIS, THIS WAS A DIFFICULT SITUATION TO MANAGE. I THINK ANY MAYOR WOULD HAVE HAD A DIFFICULTY CERTAINLY. NOW THAT WE HAVE HAD THIS COME DOWN, IT SEEMS LIKE IT WAS FOREVER TO COME, WHERE DOES THE MAYOR COME OUT IN ALL THIS? INTERESTING HOW PEOPLE HAVE HAD A PROBLEM WITH HIM THE WAY HE HAS DONE THINGS BUT HERE WE ARE. WE HAVE A SOLUTION.

>> WE HAVE A SOLUTION, HE'S TRYING TO RALLY THE COUNCIL BEHIND HIM. SO IT SEEMS LIKE HE IS DOING THE RIGHT THINGS IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP AND CLARITY TO THE PUBLIC. >> IS THE PROBLEM ULTIMATELY SOLVABLE, STEVE TERRELL, BY THE FEDS IMPOSING SOLUTIONS ON LOCAL PEOPLE? >> THAT ALWAYS CAUSES RESENTMENT AMONG THE LOCAL AGENCY, UNDER THE CONSENT DECREE OR WHATEVER, BUT, IN THE LONG RUN IT MAY BE WHAT THEY NEEDED. BIG DADDY COME IN AND IMPOSES STUFF. >> SURE. INTERESTING, THE UNION IS ON BOARD SEEMINGLY. IT IS EARLY DAYS BUT YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE THEY MAY HAVE KNOWN SOMEWHAT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON DURING NEGOTIATIONS. WE HAVEN'T HEARD A GREAT HUE AND CRY. >> THE THING THAT THE UNION IS PROBABLY GOING TO GET INVOLVED WITH AND THE OTHER CHANGE THAT WILL HAPPEN HERE FOR THE CHIEF IS THAT HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO REORGANIZE HIS STRATEGY FOR ADDRESSING SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THE ALBUQUERQUE COMMUNITY IS FACING. HE HAS THAT REPEAT OFFENDER PROJECTS UNIT THAT DOJ HAS SAID,

YOU HAVE TO GET RID OF THAT. JEFF PROCTOR WITH KRQE, HE CALLED THAT UNIT THE TIP OF THE SPEAR FOR THE DEPARTMENT'S OVER-AGGRESSIVE COWBOY CULTURE. >> WHAT THEY DO WITH THAT AND HOW THEY ATTACK THE PROBLEM OF REPEAT OFFENDERS, WHICH UNITS, HOW THEY ARE GOING TO BE REORGANIZED, ALL OF THAT WILL BE REALLY TELLING AS WELL. >> THANK YOU ALL. THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, BUT HEAD TO OUR WEBSITE FOR MORE TOPICS AND DISCUSSION WITH THESE GUYS ON >> FOR MORE NEWS OF THE WEEK, ARCHIVED INTERVIEWS AND OTHER BONUS MATERIAL, HEAD TO OUR WEBSITE AT NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.ORG, THAT IS WHERE YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL ELECTION COVERAGE, PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN KNME, PBS AND NPR STATIONS STATE-WIDE. FIND US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER, SEARCH NEW MEXICO INFOCUS. AS ALWAYS, ALL OF HERE AT NEW MEXICO INFOCUS APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND YOUR EFFORT TO STAY ENGAGED AND INFORMED. I AM GENE GRANT. I'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK INFOCUS.