Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 201; Wallace Coleman interview, part 1 of 3

Q:

WALLACE: Wallace Coleman, W-A-L-L-A-C-E C-O-L-E-M-A-N.

Q:

WALLACE: I was born in uh, Morristown, Tennessee... little—little town east of Knoxville. And it w—it was nice growing up. It... of course, it was segregated but, I left uh, at an earl- I left there in fifty-six and came here in search of work. And I was lucky my stepfather was already here and he got me a job.

Q:

WALLACE: I played baseball, a little basketball and uh, pulled some tobacco and I caddied on a golf course and so many other things that kids do, you know. But I managed to—I managed to get out of high school a year later than I was sup—than I was supposed to get out, but I did get out in—in fifty-five.

Q:

WALLACE: Not really. But, from what I understand my—I think my—my mother played ukulele, but I never heard her talk about it, no... no... nobody else in my family I know they— they—they just sing in the choir in the church... that’s it.

Q:

WALLACE: Uh, it was mostly all country music that you had on the radio. Uh, black music, you could hear it in—on the church on Sunda—that’s the only time you could hear black music, but mostly it was country music and some Piedmont blues once in a while from the Carolina’s you would hear, but uh, not like too much here, but just a little bit of it. But it was mostly see ninety-five percent country music out of Knoxville, Tennessee.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, I—I used to listen at the radio quite a bit... the Lone Ranger and all of that. And... and I was dialing the radio and I accidentally dialed WLAC out of Nashville and I heard this sound (DEMONSTRATES) and I didn’t know what it was. And when they got through with the song, this guy, his name... this ol’ John Richburg down here at WLAC Nashville that was Little Walter and his big harmonica. And I said, wow, that was a harmonica? And then he played something by Muddy Waters and then... then he played something by somebody playing a harmonica. And I just got go I said, man I’ve never heard a harmonica played like that because we... we called ‘em French harps where I come from. And... and you could take ‘em and do the chicken sound like in a barnyard and a train whistle, but I never heard it played like that. And I just kept listening and listening. Every night I just turned back to that station to see if I could hear that again. And sure enough they... that’s where I got hooked out on WLAC, Nashville, Tennessee.

Q:

WALLACE: It was like... but—I—it—that—try—try to... trying to explain it is kinda hard ‘cause my mom and them had s—s- Lewis Jerry and (inaudible) Jackson records that was a saxophone. And it—it didn’t sound like a saxophone, you know, it—it-and it... I don’t know what it sounded like, but it just caught my ear. I said, man, that’s some weird sound. And then, when he said it was a harmonica, I couldn’t believe it. So, I had an old French harp laying around that I trained with, so if you don’t like Lonnie Gloston, Wayne Rainey. So, I tried to make it like little Walt—like that dude. I said, man, I don—I can’t play that. And I never knew that it was coming over a microphone, you know. And I didn’t know that till years later. So, I did—I just gave up on trying to play that stuff and I just went back to the p—to playing the train whistles and the chickens.

Q:

WALLACE: Well uh, I’ll have to get a harmonica to show you that. Could you hand me one of my... out of my case over there. There, should be one laying over there somewhere. Ok... (PAUSED)... On the radio, from Cincinnati, Ohio there used to be a... a radio station, I can’t call the call numbers of the... of the num—but it was a guy named Lonnie Glosson and Wayne Rainey that had a radio show. And they taught harmonics lessons. You could—you could listen at it and they had this book out... how to play the Mama Blues. That wa-that was their theme song. Let me see if I can do it for you... (PLAYING HARMONICA) And they were doing that on the radio. I said, man, listen at that. I said, I’m gonna send off and get that book. And then, he would say, you want your mama? (playing)... Well, call her. (playing) Well, what you want with your mama? (playing) Some water? (playing). Well, tell mama you want some water. (playing). And I said, I got to have that book. So, I sent off in the mail and got the book. I still couldn’t do it. But I was determined to... to learn how to do it, so I just kept on reading that book, and kept on listening to that and finally, one day, I says.. (playing) I said, oh, you have to move your hand like this (plays)... and I finally caught it and I could play the mama blues. That’s the first song I ever learned how to play was the mama blues. And I’d go to school, and the kids would laugh—he say, why don’t you throw that thing away. And that’s... that’s the way I really got into it... to uh, loving the harmonica. Was just playing that one song.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, it—it took me quite a while, because, uh, at that time, I didn’t have any records, just that radio show. And then uh, um, after I got into listening to WLAC real intensely, I—I found out that you could buy those records at a record store. So, my uncle bought me a couple of uh, records. He bought me a... I think it was sonny boy number one and, of course, he was playing like the...like... little—Little Walter. I couldn’t play it. I said, no, I still can’t do that. And I really didn’t have any confidence in myself that I could play that electri—I called it electric harmonica, until I—it was quite a few years later and then I said, I’m gonna... I’m determined to play Little Walter. And I just kept on... kept on until I went to the golf cour—kept going to the golf course, saving up enough money ‘cause you could buy a harmonica for a dollar and a half. So, I went to the pawn shop and bought a real good har—little harmonica and I found myself learning how to do that stuff, you know, right alone. But it took a while though. The—the—the funny thing about a harmonica... (playing) see, you blow it, and I didn’t know you could drag it in. See once you learn how to (plays) that’s... that’s the key, right there. Because every— everything, you know, (plays)... but once you learn how to play blues (plays)... once you get that part of it, you’re on your way. And that’s the way I got started on it.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, Little Walter was my—always my idol. I loved everything that he played. Ev— Every record that John Richburg played, I loved it. And um, in 1961, I was living on Huff Avenue here in Cleveland, and I found out that Sonny Boy Williamson lived up the street. And I couldn’t believe it until a friend of mine said well, he plays six nights a week at this bar. And he says, I’ll come by and get you and we’ll go up there and hear him play on a Saturday night ‘cause I could only go on a Saturday night. So we used to—we started going to a just Sonny Boy Williamson every Saturday at this plays called Levin’s Grill. And that, to me, was one of the greatest things I ever saw in my life, to see this... this big ol’ guy with this harmonica and this big microphone playing, waving his hands, cussing people out. But I didn’t know Robert Junior Lockwood lived in Cleveland at that particular time. He was here too and I didn’t... I never saw him. But Sonny Boy used to play and I was lucky enough to meet his guitar player. And his guitar player helped me form my first band that I had here.

Q:

WALLACE: I tried to play like Sonny Boy and I couldn’t do it that—I couldn’t play Sonny Boy’s style. He’s—his style was entirely different from uh, Walter’s style, because he had the wah, wah, wah, wah, and his hands were so big that he could just... he had big hands (playing) and I c—I could do that, but not like him, you know, he—he’d... then he played uh... he played those high keyed harps, the harmonica would be like in the key like E and D and all that. And Walter played more of the lower like, G, you know, the lower keys and things like that, so I could play that with... with a whole lot more uh, feel than I could play Sonny Boy’s stuff. But I learned how to play Sonny Boy’s stuff later on.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, my stepfather and my mom, they had uh, they were already here in 1956 and um, I was living in Alabama. I was working down there with a friend of mine and I came back to Tennessee, I didn’t know they had moved. And uh, my neighbor says, your mom and them’s gone, said they moved away. So, I went back to my hometown in Morristown. And then, when I got there I stayed with my grandfather for a while. But the... the pay there was like fifty cent an hour, you know, dollar an hour, whatever, they wasn’t paying anything, so I called my stepfather one night, he said, why don’t you come to Cleveland, said I can get you a job. So, in uh fifty-six, I just got on the Greyhound bus one time and just... oop... and I came home to Cleveland. And I went I got to Cleveland I thought I’d died and went to heaven. I’d never seen anything as beautiful. That mis-city was so... it was everything was here, you know. At that time, the Indians, I had never seen a uh, major league baseball team or football... foot—or you know, Browns, and uh, it was just so... it was just such a different thing not—not having to go to the back of the bus, you know, and seeing people walk the streets and, it was just... it was different... it was much different than it was growing up in the Appalachian.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, I used to take my harmonica to work on a Saturday. Saturday was the day that there was no production and another one of my coworkers, he played a harmonica too. So, we’d come in on a Saturday, as we were cleaning up the place and the bakery, you know, I was in the sanitation department. And he’d play a little bit, we’d get together and play a little bit. And one of my coworkers says uh, why don’t you go down and play with Guitar Slim? I said, well, he’s dead... He said no... I mean the Cleveland Guitar Slim. I had never heard of him. And I said, where does he play? So, he told me where he played. I says, man, I don’t know about going... I said, I can’t play that good. I said, I just want to play around here with John here. He said, no, he says, you gotta go and play with Guitar Slim. Said, you sound like you could play with him. So, I said, ok. But I never went. So, then one Saturday, he brings Slim to the... to the job. And I took my lunch hour and I sit in the car with him, we just (plays) and he says, now, you gotta come down, said, you play like Little Walter, he said, come down. So, finally, about two weeks later, I took a chance and went down there and oh, what a mess. He had a harmonica player that he played uh, Slim’s stuff. I didn’t know Slim’s stuff that well. But it was... it was so...it sounded so good to me. I said, man, I can’t play with this guy. He’s walking around and jumping up on the tables you know, and all that stuff, playing his guitar, and... and the harmonica player there’s following him around. So, finally uh, the harmonica player bought me a big sack of harmonica’s, he gave to me, all keys, ‘cause I did—I just had the one. And he said these are all keys, he said you gotta come back every Saturday night, you get a chance, come down, he said, I’ll let you sit in. So, I started going down on a Saturday night, he let me sit in. I got uh, familiar with the music and they only played in three keys, but I had all—had all the keys. So, anyway, uh, I got to playing with him and I had played about three... about three or four months. And it was March. I re—I’ll never forget ‘cause it was real cold in there. I saw Robert come in and I didn’t know who he was. So, Slim said there’s the old man coming in here. And I looked, I says uh, who is that? He said that’s Robert Lockwood. I says, oh man. So, I started shaking, you know. Here’s a living legend coming in the door. Then he sat down, you know, and he uh, looking at the stage, we was playing. So, we got ready to take a break, and uh... he said to the guy, he says uh, Mr. Lockwood wants to talk to you. So, and I’ve only been playing like three or four months with Slim. So, I went over to sit with him. He said, do you know who I am? I said, yes sir. He says uh... he says uh... you sound, sorta like Little Walter with your sound. He says uh, you think you could play with me? And I said, man, you gotta be kidding me. ‘Cause it... ‘cause Mrs. Lockwood was there too, his wife was there. She was just looking at me, she was just smiling. I said, Mr. Lockwood, I said, I don’t even know what you’re talking about. He said, I know you don’t. He said, well, who taught you how to play changes on the harp? And I... I didn’t know what he was talking about. I said the changes? He said you don’t understand what I’m talking about. He says you’re not playing lead like every harp players, he said ‘cause I don’t like harp players he says. You know my reputation I don’t care. He said but you’re playing just the changes on the harp, he said and that’s what I like about you. I can... I can teach you how to play the other stuff. And that’s the reason he gave me a chance to. So, then a year went by ‘fore I retired. I kept following him around. I’d find out where he was playing. He was playing different parts. He played the west side, east side, hitting the flats and I’d go and listen to him, you know, and I finally bought his uh, he had—I think he had two vinyl albums out and I bought ‘em. Listened to the—his—the style. And then, when I... when I finally retired, I called him and he was in New Zealand or someplace with his daughter, she’s uh, told me to call a saxophone player and he put me in the band (inaudible) So I stayed. And when he came back I did—wasn’t sure whether he was gonna keep me, he said, so he did. So, I was lucky. I was just lucky then. It was a chance to play with him.

Q:

WALLACE: Yep... he said, was the changes, he said, I was just playing the changes on the harp. It took me a while to understand what he meant when he said changes, but after he showed me what it was, you know... um, mode—modern changes uh, I guess if uh, they di—he didn’t have a keyboard player at that time, so I was just doing what the keyboard player would do when he would play (plays)... and then when he would change, I’d go (plays)... and that’s all I would do. I would just follow the horn player, he had a saxophone player, guitar player, I’d just follow them and play the changes behind what they were playing. And he liked that. So, that’s... that’s pretty much what he wanted me to do and that’s what I did until... until I had to start singing and... and playing lead and that was—that was really a... got nervous doing that stuff. But it took me a while, I got into it though.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, in... is—this was in 1987 uh, I start—I actually starting playing with him in uh, November when he got back from overseas uh, he asked me, he said now you know we travel. He said I go out of town. He said not—not every week but just about every weekend. And he says can you travel? I said yea, I said I can go. So uh, not knowing what he was talking about, I put a few dollars aside, I said when we got ready to leave I’m giving him gas money. He says, no you don’t... you don’t give me gas money. The gas is already paid for. He says, you all—you get paid for these jobs. So I didn’t know that either. I thought it was just, you know... So then, I think the first job we did was in Memphis. I can’t think of the name of the club. Then... then we went on to Mississippi. Then every week we’d go someplace different, you know. So, this went on for until I really got into a... I’d tell everybody, well, I’m playing with Robert Junior Lockwood now and I’m going to Buffalo, I’m going to Toronto or someplace, you know. And it be—it became something that I looked forward to every... every week. Then we’d played all over Cleveland. We played the east side of Cleveland, the west side of Cleveland, you know, Akron, all over. It was fun.

Q:

WALLACE:(OFF CAMERA TALKING... TRANSCRIBED BELOW):

You don’t jump up and play somebody like that’s music without being kinda nervous you know, took me a while. Then the first festival, where I couldn’t see the end of the people, that was really... that really unnerved me. We were at the King Biscuit in... in Helena, Arkansas and then the people just so far back, I says, wow, look at them people out there... ‘cause we’d been playing clubs and things, you know. And uh...the-the-the saxophone player told me, he says, whatever you do, don’t look at the people. He said, just close your eyes and play and look up, so that’s... that’s the reason I started closing my eyes and playing—we still doing that today. But I finally got... got enough nerve to, you know, to... I knew my—what my role was in the band and I... and I followed that role, I didn’t come outside of that, ‘cause he was pretty strict, no, you know, when it come to playing that music. He would—wouldn’t let (inaudible).

Q:

WALLACE: Yea, we uh—we did... we did two so—two albums. The first one uh, was uh, um, my goodness, it’s so many years ago I can’t remember the name of the album. But the... but the one that a—a I gotta find me a woman was the one that he—he uh, got to—the— the... a nominee for a Grammy. (PAUSED)