Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 201; Wallace Coleman interview, part 2 of 3

Q:

WALLACE: Well, uh-uh-uh, in—in 1995, see, in 1996, I think it was 1996 he hired a keyboard player uh, Mr. Redtop uh, from Lorraine, and uh, they kinda changed some of the music around. And I could tell that... that uh, the harmonica v-it-it wasn’t needed that much. And so, I talked to him one day and he’s says yea, he says I—I was gonna talk to you about forming your own—you know, help... helping you get your own band started. I said, well I had already started playing with uh, with a guy named Cleveland Fats who was his lead guitar player. His name was Mark Hahn at the time. And he says yea, he says, that’s a good idea, he says if you need me to help you or if you need me to play with you some time let me know. He said but I’ll still need you to go out of town with me for about two months, so I had to go out of town for a couple months, but... but this was in 1996. And I left him and then I recorded my first album, Wallace Coleman. And um, then I started going—and he left the—he left the old Wilbert’s who played a place called Wilbert’s, he left there and went to a place called Fat Fish Blue, and I never played there with him. And that’s where he was playing in when he passed away.

Q:

WALLACE: It’s not too... it’s not too bad because uh—uh, there’s no place in Cleveland that I play because of the style of music that I play is uh, it’s not that popular here in the old chess style. But uh... uh, we get several festivals a year. I’ll be—um, this year I’m playing the Lorraine Blues Festival and the Canton Blues Festival. And I’ll probably go back to Tennessee sometime uh, in the fall and might go back to England this year to uh, the guy I played with in England back in November. He’s coming here next month, so it’s a possibility that I might do that, you know. Mostly, my wife looks at the festival’s, you know, out at—mo—all of ‘em out of town and uh, I got some guys that can go travel with me, you know, played with. But that’s about it. But locally, we don’t do too much.

Q:

WALLACE: Well uh, actually is that—that was just the name of the...the record company, the Chess Record Company, but all the guys that play harmonic in that, like, Little Walter uh, uh, Sonny Boy number two, Junior Wells, all those guys played in that mold. And I liked that... I liked that Delta sound... I like the Delta Mississippi sound. Music is so complicated today with blues, you got all these different styles. You got the west coast blues, you got Piedmont blues, you got east coast blues and all that. But I like the Mississippi Delta style, like Robert Junior and them played. It’s—it—it’s it’s real deep an—and it’s... it’s you know uh, like me, I’m a—I’m an old dinosaur so I remember the old days. That’s my style is uh, I call it the chess style.

Q:

WALLACE: Yes, I write song, my wife writes songs for me.

Q:

WALLACE: It—it’s-it-it’s not too bad. Um, I see I... I wrote... that’s in the last five years, I think, I’ve only written about four, but my wife has written about six. Some of uh, some of the records on uh, songs on my albums, she wrote ‘em. In fact, she’s... she’s written more songs than I have. And uh, she’s a great songwriter. But I try to write, maybe, maybe one... one or two a year. Because I found out that when you travel, especially overseas, they want to hear the old records. They want to hear Muddy. They want to hear the howlin’ wolf. And, it’s ok to do the new stuff, but you don’t want to do too much— James Cotton told me a long time ago, he say, don’t do too much new stuff. He said, they liable to throw you... throw you out if... so it’s—it’s a—it’s still fun to play the old style blues though.

Q:

WALLACE: It really hasn’t changed that much. Uh, I think um, uh, I play more acoustic music now than I have ever done, you know. We do a lot of... I finally—I got into—about five years ago, I got in—got into playing some of these library show on the west side and uh, I found out that I could do the acoustic sound ‘cause I can play the folk blues too, like Mississippi John Hurt, Lead Belly, and Blind Lemon and, and, and uh, Charlie Patton, I can play that stuff too and it’s all acoustic. And I like that kinda stuff. And it seems like that’s more where people are going to hear that kind of music than they are the electric blues, I guess because of the sound. But some of the electric blues musicians are so loud that you had to put your ear plugs in when you go to hear ‘em, it’s just too loud, you know. And you play till the place is like libraries in—in uh, uh, you can’t... you can’t play that loud you know. Nursing homes, I play—I play nursing homes in Tennessee when I go there too, yea.

Q:

WALLACE: Everything’s plugged in. It’s like running—coming through the amplifier. Four acoustic blues you can be just sitting here like we’re doing (playing) you can play that. As long as they can hear you, you know, and you don’t have to... you don’t have to have a lot of volume to uh, for people to hear you. It’s easier on your throat then your (inaudible) blowing your—blowing you know wind everything. You don’t—you’re not as tired when you get through playing.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, you take a lot of guys, the reason that they can’t play traditional blues the way the—I—I say they can’t play the way I think they should play is because they try to... they... they get too technical with it, you know. For instance, I had a bass player one time, he couldn’t... (singing)... he couldn’t play that. He had to go... (singing)... he— but he just couldn’t do that. He said I can’t play that. And he says it’s just too simple for me to play then he couldn’t play it. And that’s one of the things that missing is uh, the simplicity of the music and the feel of the music... the feel of the music is missing. That’s just my own opinion now, I’m not, you know, you have to be careful what you say.

Q:

WALLACE: I feel great. I feel—when I see people get up and dance or even if we’re in—in uh, like libraries and things, the people come up and they, you know, they buy your CD’s or tell you how great you sound. There might be somebody in the back raise your hands and say wow, yay...you know, that they’re really enjoying the music, you know... so that makes you feel good. Ev—at the end of the show, people stand up and give you a standing ovation, there’s nothing like that. And uh, you were there—my fav—one of my favorite places to play is the Kent... is the Kent uh, stage. I enjoy playing down there. We’ve been doing that for ten years. I didn’t realize we had been down there for ten years, but every year, we go down and play and uh, we always have a real nice time down there.

Q:

WALLACE: He would probably tell me if he—if he was here, he’d probably tell me to play more of his kind of music then mix it up. Cause I try to do some Sonny Boy. But uh, Walter was pretty—from what I understand, he was—he—he wasn’t uh, the guy to mess with. He just liked his own style of music and that was it. And uh, he would probably tell—hey... play my music... play my music, you know. I try to play as mu-much as Little Walter as I can. It’s hard to find musicians that can play in that mode. You know, Robby Juniors guitar uh-uh... the uh, the two guys that played with Robby Junior and did Freddie Below on the drums. Those guys, man they had something special going for ‘em. Louis Meyer’s uh-uh... Luther Tucker... all those guys were just great musicians behind everything that Little Walter put out. He—course he had to have a guy like Woolie Dickson to right those great songs. He wrote-he wrote a lot of stuff for Little Walter.

Q:

WALLACE: I would say it’s-it’s—it’s roots music. It comes from uh, probably the life that they lived, you know, when they were growing up in the... in the delta. In... in my home, I... I didn’t... I didn’t know what cotton was ‘cause it’s just tobacco, it’s too hilly. But I... I did pick cotton when I was in Alabama. But I think it comes from... from where you raised... born and raised and everything and you’re surroundings, you know, maybe it has something to do with the weather once in a while, or some of the—and then there was a lot of people there that just struggled from day to day, you know, not knowing where their next meal was coming from or whatever. But the people helped each other. But it was sti—it was still a struggle. So the—it—I think the blues come out of hard times. And I think Muddy Waters had uh, said blues is nothing but a lowdown shakin’ chill. If you ain’t never had ‘em, baby, I hope you never will. I think that was one of Muddy...one of Muddy’s sayings or something.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, if you turn the radio on, there’s a couple blues shows out of Cleveland. But you don’t hear this kinda music played any more, you know... not—not—not the traditional side of the blues. And I think if you—if you let a music die... I mean, what have we got? We got... we got people nowadays, they won’t go out to hear... they won’t even go out to hear blues, you know. They... this... the—and... but what... what are gonna listen at in the future? If you lose the blues, next thing you know, you lose jazz, you lose something else, you know. So, you gotta keep it going. You gotta try to hold on to the music and that’s basically what I do. And by me being a harmonica player, it’s getting less and less with these. It’s well you know, kids ain’t gonna take no harmonica lessons too much, you know. An—and guitar... I’ve got friends that teach guitar lessons. Uh, one of my friends, Jerry, he said it’s... it... the students are getting less and less, you know. So, kids today, a lot of ‘em are just picking up a microphone talking into it and whatever, you know, they’re not playing any instruments, so... it—its-it’s-it’s really serious.

Q:

WALLACE: No... not traditional side... i—it’s more rock blues, you know, it’s more rock uh, this— with the harmonica. Uh, I think the uh, one of the best harmonica players out there now, he plays uh... his name is Sugar Blue and he plays what they call a high end (plays). He’s up there, you know, and he sounds good, but he can play. I can’t play like him. And he’s fast. And then uh, there’s a few guys that’s still living like uh, Charlie (inaudible) still around. He’s—he got the reward this year for harmonica. And then, James Cotton is still alive. He can’t sing anymore but, he’s...he still plays harmonica. So, it’s a—just a few of ‘em still alive.

Q:

WALLACE: Uh, well, let’s see now... uh, I’ll... I’ll be 80 years old my next birthday. I think Mr. Cotton’s already 80 and um, there ain’t too many of us left around... left around to play this style of blues, you know, and the younger guys coming along today, you’re not gonna really going and play the old Chicago or Delta blues, they gonna be playing something else. You got different styles. I—I like some of the Piedmont style, you know, but I just don’t know too many guys that are playing harmonica. Now, there’s the west coast guys are probably playing more harmonica than any place in the United States... the guys... the harmonica players on the west coast. It’s about five or six of ‘em. You—you may have heard of Rod Piazza or Rod Piazza uh, um, Mar—um, Mark Hummel and uh, it’s-it’s—it’s quite a few of ‘em, but they...they play mostly up and down the west coast, you know, from Seattle down to Portland, but they don’t... they don’t play too much on the east coast.

Q:

WALLACE: That uh, well, third position is tha—uh... I talked to Mrs. Lock—Mr. Lockwood about it uh, since ih-uh, he did a lot of Robert Johnson music. Mr. Lockwood used to do a lot of his stepfather’s music and uh, he told me that uh, th—the harmonica wa—‘cause, Robert Johnston played harmonica with but—a lot of people known that he played a (inaudible) harmonica. But he didn’t record it. He just played it on the street. And, Mr. Lockwood said I’d like for you to come up with something different than just going (plays). And so, it was a position called third position, which is a, you’re supposed to be able to take one of these and get three keys out of it. This is... this is a... a Bflat harmonica and this is Bflat (plays). And this is in the key of F (plays). And this is C (plays). And-and, and that.. that... that fit the... that meant that when he plays something like (plays) singing... I got a kind hearted mama (plays), do anything in this world for me (plays)... but that’s in the key of C. And the other two positions didn’t fit that kinda music that good, so he let me put that uh, third position in in about half a dozen of those Robert John—and it sounded good. So, that’s the reason I got the... people start talking about third position. (playing) And that—and that’s all it is, it’s just... it’s just—just to where you uh, uh, play the harmonica. I—I call it the chromatic style coming back down this way, but it’s—it’s just a third position of—of the harmonica that you can get three keys out of. You get three keys of this uh—you can’t play as—you can’t play as long and as much with the third position as you can the other two, but you can’t play with it, you know. Most of (inaudible) I think he can do four, but I think he can do four keys. I—I can’t do the other key. I don’t know what the oth—how you would do that. But it’s like uh, this is a tricky instrument. It’s... it’s a simple instrument but it’s tricky.

Q:

WALLACE: Uh, well you—ih—if you-if you start playing... now the real simple song that you can play uh, to a harmonica’s only one song. But you have to get—you got to reach and get another—nother key to compliment that, you know. Like he play... something that start in the key... he... he had to start in the key of E and then it go to the key of C, but then you have... you have to get another harmonica. Now, what I do with mine, I think the—I just put ‘em up there in—in alphabetical order, you know, in—in—in whatever this is uh... uh, what key we playing in? And if they say we’re playing in F. So that means I grab this Bflat harmonica and start playing it. We’re playing in E. That means I grab a A. We’re playing in A-flat, that’s uh... I get—I get the A-flat uh, or we’re playing in E- flat, I get the A-flat harp. Now, the—the tricky part is I play a chromatic harmonica too. So that means I can only play blues in two keys. I play uh, i—if I grabbed the—the chromatic, my chromatic is in C... and, that has to be in the key that you play it in. And if you push the button in, it’s... it’s a...it’s E-flat. I’ll have to explain it to you. It’s kinda hard to explain it to you just like this, you know. It’s—but it’s-it’s-it’s—it’s mostly simple stuff. If you play G, if you play in the key of G, you gotta C harp. If you play in A, you gotta D harp, you know, right on down the line. And Hornick, the Hornick Company’s so good... I’ve been an endorser for the company for quite a few years. They... they come out with so many different great harmonica sounds today. You—you can get uh, all kinds of bass harps and stuff like that. So, I got a couple of bass harps, in the same size this, but it just gives you a real nice soulful sound, you know. And then... they’re expensive. Thi—this one’s, this is about seventy dollars but I get the fifty percent discount when I, yea... but this uh... gives you a nice sound though. It’s called it... it calls this periwood. That’s what they call it. Periwood. It’s made of Periwood. I don’t know what Periwood is, I’ve—you know, but that’s... (plays) gives you a real loud sound.

Q:

WALLACE: Well, we’re getting ready for uh, I want to try to get my CD out. Uh, we’re trying to get uh, I did it—I did so—some recordings in Brazil and then I did Martin Luther King’s birthday here at Severance hall in Cleveland. So we’re trying to combine the two. So uh, soon as uh, the guy that do—does our recordings, soon as he gets enough time, he’s gonna try to put ‘em together and we’ll put out the CD with uh, my—my wife picked out the title from Sao Paolo to Severance, so we’ll see how that comes out in a ba—in a few months. Hopefully, it’ll come out ok.

Q:

WALLACE: The thing that... that I can’t reme—that I’ll never forget as long as I live was with Robert Junior. This is—this is the thing that I’ll never forget long as I live. In 1995, we were in Tokyo for eight days playing at this place called the Part Tower Blues Festival and then we went on to Osaka uh, the following week. But the last night we played, we had Snook Sagglin’, we had Little Sonny harmonica player from Detroit, and we had a guy named Vernon Garrett from... from uh, Los Angeles who was a soul singer. Robert uh... Robert Junior went up to play by himself on a couple of numbers... Robert Johnson numbers. And he was playing, and all of a sudden he—he just—oh he... the—the place was just going crazy. I mean, they were going wild. So, when he... when he was finished, Mrs. Lockwood brought him off the stage and he started crying. So, we were concerned. I went over and... and Robert Junior looked at me and he looked at Maurice, the sax player, and he says, you guys saw that didn’t you? You saw him sittin’ out there with me? And I said—beg your pardon? He said you saw him sitting out there with me, didn’t you? And he said, Robert Johnson was sitting there next to him. And it—I—I... I didn’t know what to say. I said, no... and she was wiping his forehead, he was crying and she was... Mrs. Lockwood. But that was so intense. I had never heard anything like that in my life. He—he actually saw his stepfather sitting on the stage with him. That— that last night we played there. I’ll never forget that as long as I live. That’s one of the greatest moments of my whole life was to... to see that, you know. I never forgot that. Of course, we didn’t see him now. You know, but it was just to see him... the expression on his face and he was crying and going on ‘cause he actually did see something, so... boy oh boy.

Q:

WALLACE: There was a couple things, we played in Cleveland one night and a guy threw a glass of beer on him. And he got up, went and got the uh, the owner, and we all got up... got ready to leave because Mr. Lockwood kept his pistol in his coat. Said, if he’d headed for the coat rack, I think we’d a ran outta the place, but he didn’t. The guy put the... put the whole table of people outta there. But it was... it was a cold night... the guy was drunk and he just... he got up just as nice. Maurice, the sax player, plays like me, he played with his eyes shut and he was still playing. He didn’t—he didn’t even see him get up. And he... he put the whole table of people outta there. But other than that, it was—it was beautiful though. We had—we had some good traveling uh... uh... but we played in New York City at the Village Gate. A lot of people don’t know that we played that two nights, that was quite an experience. There’s so many other places, I can’t even name. I’ll give you a... I’ll give you a schedule of some of the places we placed before—some of the places, I’ll give you a sheet of paper with—let you know how many places we played before you guys leave.

Q:

WALLACE: Uh, I’d like to put out another album after I get this one out. I’d like to put out a acoustic album. So, I’m talking to uh, my guitar player, he has his own band, Hollywood Slim Band. He’s getting ready to retire in July. And uh, I want to get together with him, we’re gonna... we want to do something acoustic. And my wife’s gonna play on it too, so I’m gonna write a few songs and, you know, try to get that started for a whole new uh, acoustic album. And that’s... that’s about it.