Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 101; Tony Ellis interview, part 2 of 3

Q: We were just talking about how you had, you know, I guess retuned your banjo to make it sound different, so obviously you’re I guess an innovator when it comes to banjos and how to tune and play them to make them sound different that other people have never tried before?

TONY: Uh, being an innovator is... is kind of a description one might put on someone who creates an entirely different style of playing. And what I do is a combination of other styles brought together, which does sort of create a new way of doing things but... but not necessarily ther—anything new about it, except that it’s a combination of two or three other older ways of playing that are combined into uh, one. So I don’t know that that’s being an innovator or not, it’s just making things happen musically that seem to work for me at any rate.

Q: But I’m assuming no one had ever done that before?

TONY: Apparently not uh... that... that uh, people have done lots of things with a banjo, throwin’ em overboard out on the ocean and things like that. But uh, to bring the old tunings and the modern picking techniques and playing softer, quieter things on the banjo is... is a bit different. So I don’t know that it’s... it’s... you’d call that innovating. It’s just uh, just taking a different side street maybe with the banjo.

Q: Why is it important to keep the tradition of the banjo alive?

TONY: Traditional music uh, traditional banjo are important elements of who we are as a society. It... it speaks to where we come from, where are ancestors were. And... so it’s... it’s an important thing to keep that as it was, uh, the way it was and try to preserve that for future generations because if you don’t that’ll be lost eventually, and we won’t have that. And... and while it’s not a critical thing for uh, life but it... it certainly is a wonderful thing to have to cherish as part of our make up and... and our historic interest in music and the songs that represent historical aspects. And just the uh, general development of the way of playing the banjo or fiddle uh, it—it’s a good thing to hang on to those basic threads and uh, that keeps it all tied together.

Q: I want you to describe your music for me in combinations of you know, and types of, you know, bluegrass, ragtime, Irish, describe what you do?

TONY: I’ve had people ask me to describe what it is I do with the banjo. Uh, the main thing I do is have fun with it. But in terms of um, any kind of technical description of it, it... it isn’t really bluegrass, although, a fella in England said, oh, but it tis... it’s beautiful bluegrass. So that was his take on it. But I do some things that aren’t ab—absolutely bluegrass and some things that are old time mountain two finger style tunes and uh, but I do a lot of things in between and probably um, I’ve been best described as playing music that’s called Americana. It... its represents early elements of the banjo in Appalachian life in musical life in America and uh, goes right up to modern times, so that in—it incorporates lots of different elements of American History in terms of the banjo... musical history.

Q: I don’t know how many styles there are but can you explain a couple of them to me of... of playing the banjo... the... the is it claw hammer, three fingered roll, I mean, why is there so many different way—how... how is there different ways to play the banjo? TONY:

There are many different ways to play the banjo and I... I had a banjo teacher tell me one time there’s no wrong way. I don’t quite agree with that but uh, I guess maybe if you want to use a real loose uh, interpretation of playing uh, you can do that. If you make a noise on it, you’re playing the banjo. But there are different styles that have come from different sources. The... the black people that had it in Africa brought it to this country... brought the knowledge of how to make it and how to play it. They played a strum-strum or uh, banjar, different names for the banjo. Uh, the merry wang was another name for the banjo and they would strum down with their fingers and uh, some of ‘em had two strings, three strings, four, five strings. And later on they had strings and uh, uh, I have a seven string banjo in my collection. They’re played different ways to try to incorporate all of the different strings and aspects of the physical development of that particular instrument. So uh, different people had different ideas about how they wanted to do things and that’s how all these different styles of playing happened. Uh, some people played down with their fingers and my grandmother could trill with her little finger while she was doing that, it was amazing, like playing a mandolin. It... it... it was just a steady little trill on the bottom string while she playing notes on the other. I’ve never seen anybody else do that. Now Mike Segar, the great uh, historical folk musician and banjo player had never seen it either. So uh, that may have been here own uh, little thing that she did. But uh, there uh, Pete Segar plays with uh, fingers and picks turned around backwards so he can get lots of volume in big rooms where he needs a lot of volume. And uh, some people put picks on all there fingers. I’ve seen that. And but, basically most people that play the old time style, or fray ling, or drop thumb or claw hammer uh, they have different ways of strumming down on the strings and getting the thumb in and out to play rhythmic uh, notes or counter point to the... the rhythm that you’re playing with the fingers. But all kinds of different innovations that they’ve come up with to make melodies happen and make melodies speak. When I was a youngster trying to learn to play the banjo back in 1953, I asked Earl Scruggs for some advice. And uh, he said... he said my advice to you is this... try to lead the melody with your thumb. Wherever the melody note is on the... the neck, try to get that melody note with your thumb and then develop the rolls with your fingers around that so that you have a syncopated movement of your thumb and two fingers to keep the melody out front but incorporate the... the rhythm and the counterpoint and... and the harmony’s with the... the rest of it. So uh, that’s what I’ve tried to do is... is uh, lead the melody with my thumb as often as possible. Sometimes you can’t do that but uh, most of the time you can. So that’s what I do. And then there are other finger style players that uh, will play a lot of single note uh, up and down with the thumb real quickly to play single note... sounds like playing a tenor banjo sometimes. And then there are others that have developed a way of playing uh, fiddle tunes on a banjo so that they get all the notes the fiddle plays and they do it by all kinds of finagling the... manipulating the... the places they make the notes so that it... it will work and it’s very... very interesting and a bit complicated for an old fellow like me, so I don’t try to do it. But there are people that... that do amazing things with the banjo... Bill Keith and Bill Fleck and uh, Carol Best was one of the originators of that style that he learned from his father, oddly enough, who had, I guess picked up some ideas from somebody that maybe played classical banjo and learned from reading music for the banjo back when it was for a very short time a legitimate instrument. A friend of mine said... said that uh, the banjo became a very pop—uh, oh I thought I’d turned that phone off... (Pause, waiting for phone to stop ringing)

Q: You were gonna tell me a story about a friend of yours...

TONY: A friend of mine, Joe Wilson who was uh, executive director of the national council for the traditional arts was describing the banjo back in uh, the 1880’s, 1890’s when it was uh, considered a proper instrument and was very popular. And if you played anything back then, you played a banjo. All the ladies played banjos. They had different sized banjos for the little girls and, and the grown ladies. They had little piccolo banjos and all kinds of things. And they played classical music and the very popular music of the day. And um, Joe said that the banjo became weary in the parlor. And it went back out on to the streets and to the cat houses where it could make a lot of noise, so that’s what happened to the banjo.

Q: Tell me a little bit about your son, because he’s now a very accomplished guitarist but obviously, he... he got that from you I assume?

TONY: My son has been a... a great joy to me in terms of uh, just about anything you can imagine. He’s been a great student in school. He’s a been a well behaved young fella. Never gave any trouble. He just been a very beautiful young fella and a made great grades. He finished college with a four point average and uh, he’s just finished his PhD. But uh, when he was 8 years old, I gave him a little guitar and he noodle around with it for six months or so and gave up. Then uh, years later, when he was about 12, I swapped a fiddle for a guitar and brought it home and he looked at and he said, this is a nice guitar. If I learn to play it can I have it? And I said, why yea, but you’re gonna have to learn to play it. And he jumped on that just like a ticket on a june bug and... and never... never let up. And uh, just learned, and learned, and learned and he... he went through the... the uh, bluegrass tunes and fiddle tunes with me and the old songs, the mountain ballads and learned all that stuff. And then he... he got interested in folk rock music and he got books, Steely Dan books and learned all these chords and tunes and things. Then went to college and played in the jazz band in college and then switched to classical guitar, became interested in classical guitar applications because uh, the teacher said it would teach you to do things that you normally wouldn’t think about and playing other styles of guitar, the discipline and the techniques that you would learn would be of great benefit. So... so he uh, he studied classical guitar. He ended up getting a master’s degree at the Cincinnati Conservatory. Studied with Clair Callaghan there and uh, got his master’s degree from Cincinnati. And uh, then went on to uh, be a newspaper person and music critic for the Memphis Commercial Appeal for many years and uh, then went back to school and he just finished his PhD in (inaudible) musicology... studying music’s of the world and uh, with his primary focus being uh, southern black music, so he’s uh, he’s learned a lot of things and he’s a great guitar player and he spoiled me. I go out to play a job and if he isn’t with me I just feel lost, ‘cause he can make me sound almost good. He does so many nice things with the guitar. I can play a simple note or two and he’s doing all this wonderful stuff behind me and it... it really makes it work. I’m very proud of him.

Q: So what’s it like, musicians of Brayburn, is your wife and you and your son, pretty much?

TONY: Can be anything that’s why it’s titled, Musician’s of Brayburn. Brayburn is the name of our farm, it’s Scottish for hills and streams, the Bray in Scotland’s hills and burn is a creek or a stream. And uh, this farm was named by my wife’s relatives years, and years, and years ago and continues with the... the name Brayburn Farm. But uh, we’ve had lots of combinations of musicians. We had a Celtic harpist with us for a good while. And uh, so therefore we can incorporate things. We’ve had a great pianist work with us. We played a lot of uh, wonderful folk music from the northeastern United States and um, we’ve had another local pianist play with us who’s very fine. So we can, we do lots of things. We can do Christmas programs and play Christmas tunes and songs and uh, we do children’s programs in public schools. But primarily we do folk festivals or private venues. But being musicians of Brayburn, you’re just musician whatever you are, so it doesn’t have to be bluegrass or folk or old time or jazz or anything, it can be whatever you want it to be.

Q: But I assume it’s gotta be kinda neat to play with your wife and your son?

TONY: It is, it... it makes traveling a lot better. Uh, Louise is... is a great navigator and when we’re driving she can get us there. She reads maps really well and she’s a good driver too. Uh, don’t tell her I said that. But she is a... a good driver and makes good strong coffee and that helps too but uh, Bill, my son is uh, he’s also a great driver and uh, great musician and hard worker. They’re... they’re both very harder workers, Louise helps with the equipment and CD’s and uh, all kinds of things, luggage, hotels, booking rooms, uh, airplane tickets, all... all of the nightmares you go through traveling. And uh, Bill, my son is strong as an ox and he can help old dad carry those heavy banjos through the airport and... so it... it makes life more fun and to get to experience a foreign travel with your family on a basis where you’re working together and you’re entertaining people from a foreign country, uh, it... it really is special, a lot of fun.

Q: What do you want people to leave having heard you, seen you? What is it you want them to take away from a performance from you?

TONY: Whenever we play anywhere our goal is to entertain the audience to the point where they hear something in the program that really does speak to them. Whether it’d be a... a sad old folk song, a ghost story song, a... a song about uh, American history like John Henry or Jessie James or something like that, or whether it’s something we have written like the Wind Chimes and Nursery Rhymes lullaby tune which uh, we’ve... that’s probably sold more CD’s for us than any tune we’ve ever done. But we just want people to go home thinking I’m glad I went there because of this one particular was so good to me. And uh, we usually have that kind of feedback from folks. But we want them to enjoy the entire program. But we want it to be balanced and... and to move at different paces so that you don’t get worn here and put to sleep here. We... we try to keep it going so that people stay attentive and enjoying one thing after another. We incorporate a lot of American stories, historical stories and funny things sometimes and things of interest that are added to the music that uh, quite often describe what the music is about or who it’s about or what it represents in some way. So it... it all comes together as... as uh, kind of a little production that we hope everyone enjoys.

Q: When you look back on your career, what is the most important thing for you personally that you’ve done that’s... that says you?

TONY: When I look back on the years and years that I’ve spent playing the banjo uh, there are many things that bring a smile to my face and uh, some of the people that I’ve met, wonderful people, caring people, characters, real characters, George Pigger is the... the king of characters. A great old banjo player. I could tell stories about him that couldn’t be told... or shouldn’t be told. But uh, you... you run into so many wonderful people and uh, things that they bring to the program or... or to your life that... that you wouldn’t get otherwise. These are kind of obscure people sometimes that, that you meet and are associated with to some degree for whatever reason during the... the course of uh, traveling or developing music or recording or whatever you might be doing. So the... the... the association factor is so important. And it... it has so much value to you as a person in your life. It uh, it just brings something to your life that nothing else can. Uh, another thing is that you... you’ve hoped that you’ve made a contribution, musically, that will last, something that people like well enough and care enough about that it won’t be lost five years from or ten years from now, or maybe twenty-five, fifty years from now one of your tunes may still be out there being played by someone and enjoyed by someone. So you hope that you’ve made a lasting contribution of quality that uh, people will enjoy and appreciate.

Q: Obviously, you’ve received many awards uh, but what did it mean to receive the Ohio Heritage Fellowship award back in 2003?

TONY: Back in 2003 I... I was uh, very honored to be a recipient of the Ohio Heritage Fellowship award which is given to people from Ohio that are involved in different forms of the traditional arts, mine being music playing uh, the banjo. And uh, that... that was a... a very special honor because what I do is... is quite different from what most other banjo players do and uh, it was really nice to know that the people of Ohio cared about the music I was writing. Of course, all of it technically is Ohio music now because it was written in Ohio. So uh, I guess that’s kind of how that helped evolve. But that was a very special thing; it still is very special thing to me. with and uh, and very appreciative about.

Q: Why did you build a uh, pavilion/stage in your yard?

TONY: It’s uh, something I’m very pleased We have a big yard, so we decided well, we have a... a... an old barn down there that we, who need to tear down so we can see the sunset or put it to use. So uh, being on two hundred and twenty acres, we thought well... we could put it to use. We could convert it from a drive-in tractor shed to a stage and a pavilion where we could have musical programs, wedding receptions, family reunions, birthday parties, we’ve even had church services held on our stage down there. We have twenty-five hundred square feet of floor space and uh, it... it’s a nice outdoor facility, it’s uh, depending on the weather. We do have tarps that we can drop down to keep the rain from blowing in on ya but, there have been occasion where the wind blowed so hard that that didn’t help that much. So, most of the time, though, during the summer months uh, we’ve enjoyed using that facility for all kinds of programs, that people have enjoyed. Children come out for hayrides. We had a great Halloween program there one year and we’ve been asked many times to have another one but it was an enormous amount of work and I doubt that we’ll do it again but, but it was memorable. It was a lot of fun.

Q: So you’re... in some ways you’re bridging your musical career with the community?

TONY: Uh, to... to draw the community into traditional music is something we strive to do uh, because it represents the roots of people that live here. And many people really do care about their grandparent’s music, their parent’s music and even going uh, further back and historic Ohio music, songs that talk about the history of Ohio or represent the history of Ohio. So uh, to... to try to present programs of traditional music, especially music that is a prominent in the state of Ohio, is part of what we try to do. And uh, it’s... it’s nice to get acquainted with folks that really care about that type of thing.

Q: One of your favorite subjects is river boats, right?

TONY: We love river boats um, we... when I was a child, we uh, used to visit my grandparents in Tennessee, they had a river farm on the Clinch River. And uh, everyday river boats would go by there, old paddle wheel boats. And I’d run down to the shore and I’d watch that boat and I’d wave to ‘em and they’d wave back and sometimes toot the horn and uh, I was fascinated with that and my father new somebody somewhere that arranged to let me ride on one of those riverboats, they were tow boats primarily. They just moved barges up and down the river. So I got to spend a Saturday on the riverboat with him and uh, then got to go on a few more little trips that summer on the riverboat and uh, then we moved away from there and never got to do it again, for many, many years. Then I became acquainted with a banjo player named John Hartford who was uh, he wrote the song Gentle on My Mind. He was a great banjo player and fiddler, wonderful fiddler. And uh, John was also a licensed riverboat pilot. He was from the St. Louis, Missouri region and uh, he had grown up around riverboats and his life was torn between the banjo and the riverboats. So uh, he managed to sort out a way to do both. Six months out of the year he’d be on the river and the other six he’d be playing the banjo and, of course, he’d carry his banjo on the boat with him and write songs like Gentle on my Mind and uh, lots of other great songs and tunes he wrote. But uh, I got reacquainted with the riverboats through John. He was telling me, the last time I saw him uh, we visited him when he had had his last chemotherapy treatment and we were visiting at his home Nashville, on the Clinch River overlooking the Clinch River and his big living room was like the pilot house of a big riverboat, you’re just looking right down on the river. And he said, you know, one of the prettiest riverboats in America is up very close to you in a little town called Marietta and uh, it’s named the Becky Thatcher. And the Becky Thatcher had been a government inspection boat, the Mississippi Two and uh, had worked as an inspection boat for years going up and down the Mississippi and it had finally gone down to New Orleans and had been bought and turned into kind of a theater boat, then had gone, I think, back to St. Louis then back down to New Orleans. Then came up the river to Marietta and was bought and turned into a theater boat there where they had uh, legitimate equity actors doing theater on the boat and a restaurant on the boat, and it’s still permanently moored in Marietta, not operating any more I’m sad to say. But a pretty little boat is started to fall into disrepair but, nevertheless, it was a beautiful boat in its day. I have a... a drawing of the... the Becky Thatcher when she was the Mississippi Two. It was given to me and uh, I cherish that drawing. And I have the... the hat of the captain of the... the boat and who died in Marietta. But uh, riverboats are fascinating things. They... they uh, you read Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn and all those great stories and they talk about the riverboats and we went to Hannibal, Missouri and played on a riverboat up there and got to meet a lot of folks there and we’ve played on lots of riverboats and become very interested in them. We belong to a group called the Sons and Daughters of Pioneer Riverman and they meet in Marietta once a year and have a big program. So uh, the riverboat history in Ohio’s very strong and uh, it’s a great history. So we uh, we enjoy that very much.

Q: Did you not write a song?

TONY: Uh, I wrote uh, a banjo tune called the Becky Thatcher Waltz which is dedicated to John Hartford and uh, his love of the riverboats and to Miss Becky Thatcher from the Tom Sawyer stories and the Becky Thatcher boat in Marietta, Ohio. So it... it kind of brought all that together in one little old fashioned sounding waltz tune for the banjo.