Traditions: Ohio Heritage Fellows; 101; Tony Ellis interview, part 1 of 3

Q: First, say your name and spell it for me.

TONY: My name is Tony Ellis, T-O-N-Y E-L-L-I-S.

Q: First question is tell me about growing up?

TONY: When I was growing up uh, my grandmother played the banjo. And uh, back in that day and time, women had learned to play the banjo as a parlor instrument. It was a proper thing. It wasn’t just the hillbilly hokey thing. And they played nice music on the... the banjo. And uh, my grandmother enjoyed that but, she also enjoyed the mountain tunes like Cripple Creek and John Henry and Pretty Little Girl with the Red Dress on and some of the uh, the more traditional mountain tunes. So uh, instead of getting’ a bedtime story, I would say granny get your banjo and she would bring the banjo into my bedroom and play a tune or two until I dozed off to sleep. So I had uh, bedtime banjo music instead of bedtime story quite often.

Q: Was your whole family musical or was it just your grandmother?

TONY: My uh... my father didn’t play music but, his father was a great old time fiddler. I still have his fiddle. He was uh, considered the finest fiddler in uh, the piedmont of North Carolina back in that day. My mother played piano and organ in church. She also played violin and viola in a... a local little orchestra. My sister played violin. My grandmother played the piano and organ. So uh, pretty much a musical family, so I had lots of different influences coming from different directions and I turned out to be the real hillbilly of the family. I started uh, playing trumpet and did that until I heard Earl Scruggs on the radio playing the banjo, and that was it. It just like throwing on a light switch and uh, I knew that’s what I wanted to do. So... so I traded my banjo for... or my trumpet for a banjo and uh, not knowing at the time I got the wrong kind of banjo but, it didn’t take but a few weeks to figure out that I needed a five string instead of a four string. So... so I ended up with a five string banjo and I’ve loved every moment of it ever since.

Q: Um, did you guys play as a family, as a group at all?

TONY: No... no uh, we... we did not play as a group uh, because the kind of music I wanted to play was quite different from what everybody else in the family played. Uh, they played a lot of church music and orchestra, you know, things and... and I liked the old hillbilly stuff, and so we did not play as a group. Although, I did enlist my sister in uh, high school into a little band I put together called the Briar Patch Boys. And uh, the three of us were fellows and my sister played the fiddle and she could play enough of uh, a fiddle tune to... to make it sound good. She could get good tone anyway. Uh, so anyway she was the girl in the Briar Patch Boys band but we won talent contests all over central Virginia, had a great time but, that was the only real family involvement in music.

Q: So was your biggest banjo influence your grandmother and the radio at that point?

TONY: My biggest banjo influence as a child was my grandmother who played uh, just beautifully. She played the old what called drop thumb style or fray ling style which you strike the fingers down on the string instead of picking up with them as modern players do. But uh, there was an old women that lived not far from us named Samantha Bumgardner and her name in the community was Aunt Samantha Bumgardner. She was a real fixture there. This was back before television and uh, radio wasn’t very much back then. And in the mountains you couldn’t get a signal for that very well. So uh, when we’re... we would have uh, molasses makin’s or taffy pullin’s or county fairs or anything that would draw people together in the community, they would get Aunt Samantha to bring her banjo and play and sing. And she was a tall, striking woman who was a... a very fine musician. And uh, so I remembered her as a little child being very impressive person and my grandmother was my other major musical influence.

Q: Ok, I’m gonna have you tell me the story again about how you traded your trumpet in for the banjo.

TONY: I played trumpet in uh, school from first grade through uh, oh, the seventh grade, I guess. And I liked uh, Jackie Gleason’s orchestra and Bobby Hacket, wonderful trumpet player. I liked that kind of music but they wouldn’t let you play that in school, you had to play Sousa marches and I just got sick to tears of playing that and I didn’t want to play anymore Sousa marches. And one day I heard Earl Scruggs on the radio and the banjo and I never heard anything like that. And it... it was like throwing a light switch on to me. It... I knew immediately that’s what I wanted to do, so I took my trumpet down to a... a local pawn shop and swapped it for a banjo. Got the wrong kind, I got a tenor I didn’t know I needed a five string but it took two or three weeks to figure out that I’d gotten the wrong kind of banjo so I took it back and got a five string. So I was off and runnin’ then.

Q: So at that point are you self taught?

TONY: I was self taught, initially, my grandmother taught me a few things um, how to tune the banjo, how to play Cripple Creek and Pretty Little Girl with a Red Dress on. And then there were other people in the community. A wonderful banjo player named Swanson Walker taught me some things. And then Don Reno the great uh, innovator of the five string banjo lived in our vicinity and Don taught me for three or four years uh, and wonderful person and a wonderful teacher. And he actually arranged for my audition with Bill Monroe when I went to Nashville and went to work for Monroe. So Don was a... a great friend and teacher.

Q: What did it take to be able to join Bill Monroe?

TONY: When I went to Nashville to audition for Monroe I was very nervous and uh, that morning at the hotel I wa—I was reaching into my shaving kit to get my razor out so I’d clean up and look real nice and...and back in those days they had what was called a safety razor, and an adjustable stem on the thing, and it was loose and my finger hit the blade and just split it wide open. It was the middle finger of my left hand. And when you play the banjo you slide that finger up the third string. So it... it really laid it open. So when I auditioned, I was trying to play and that... that string was going in the cut and it started bleeding and Monroe looked at it and said what... what did you do there? And I said, well I was... went to shave this morning and cut my finger. He said, hm... that’s all he said. I didn’t get any pity out of him at all. But I kept playing and uh, I guess that impressed him more than my playing did, that I had the gumption to go through the pain and uh, and try to play the banjo anyway. But I ended up getting hired.

Q: So you travelled with him for two... two and a half years?

TONY: Two and a half years.

Q: What was that like?

TONY: I did two and a half years with... travelling with Mr. Monroe and it was a grueling experience in many ways but an absolutely marvelous experience in many ways. Uh, it’s an answer to young fellas dreams, you know, to get to play with one of the grand masters of blue grass music and actually the man that was credited with having created blue grass music. So uh, I got to learn lots of things. And uh, one of the things you learn is that you soon reach a saturation point with people that you’re constantly with and... and you learn how to live with that and how to uh, get along with people and... and how to overlook these things that drive you crazy. And uh, it... it’s a real great learning experience to do that, but the music was the enjoyable part, learning to play his music and uh, play the banjo.

Q: I suppose at that point when you were with him that was kind of a, it was a high point for him, as well. So you... you became well known as well? So... so you became well known as well?

TONY: Well, when I was working with Bill he had had a high point in his career a major high point and had people like Lest Futt and Earl Scruggs with him and Carter Stanley and other people of note. When I went to work for him, it was actually during a slow part uh, it was just before the folk music boom of the 60’s. So I was there uh, ’60, ’61, early ’62 and things were just beginning to open up again when I left. So I... I was just worn out. I needed to get away from it, so I’m glad I did. But uh, things really did pick up after that, so he had another period of his musical career that was absolutely major part of his life.

Q: So when you went home were you a star at that point?

TONY: No, when I went home I... I... I put my banjo up and went back to school and got a degree in Accounting of all things. The most boring thing there is in the whole world. But it... it would get ya a job and you could pay the bills. So... so I went back to school and... and went to work.

Q: Ok... um... you were considered a legend in most blue... blue grass aficionados. How does that make you feel?

TONY: I don’t believe it. I... I... uh, this legend business, people talk about you being a legend. I think Earl Scruggs is a legend. I’m not a legend. I was just a... another musician in a long string of musicians that worked for Bill Monroe and your name... or my name comes up occasionally in a conversation or recording uh, talk and uh, that’s nice to be remembered. I hope sometimes they’re probably not very kind remarks that are made but, you never know. And... and it’s uh, that’s just part of life as a musician.

Q: Now in the 70’s you moved to Ohio... why?

TONY: In the uh, mid 1970’s I was working in Kingsport, Tennessee and a job opening came available in Chillicothe, Ohio and I applied for it and was hired and I was transferred to Tennessee to Ohio. And uh, worked up... up in Ohio for fourteen years.

Q: Um, tell me in what way did the move affect your music or didn’t it?

TONY: It did uh, very much. I’m sorry I’m... moving to Ohio did... did affect my... my musical uh, thinking and uh, it... when I lived in Tennessee I had musicians that I played with. They were good friends and... and we played different things. Old doctor Mongol and Mac Blevins and Jim Bullock and Sammy Which are all uh, buddies down in Tennessee. But when I came to Ohio I did—I had no one to play with. I didn’t know any musicians. And so I would sit at the kitchen table with the coffee pot and my banjo thinking about my buddies back in Tennessee. I missed playing music with them and also thinking about the years with my grandmother and things that she had taught me. And part of the things that... that she had taught me were tunings for the banjo. Most bluegrass uh, banjos played in what’s called a G tuning and uh, that’s kind of the standard. And occasionally, though, they’ll change to a D tuning but, primarily a G tuning. And my grandmother played in... in these old mountain tunings uh, C tuning, Double C tuning, G Model tuning. And uh, so I was thinking about these old tunings that granny used on the banjo and I started experimenting and writing new melodies in these old tunings. And instead of the fray ling style of playing that she did, I was doing the Earl Scruggs picking style. So I used the old mountain tunings and the modern bluegrass picking style and it opened up a whole new world of opportunity to write new melodies that were quite different in many ways uh, instead of everything being fast and furious and exciting, you could write uh, music that was quiet and peaceful and... and beautiful and uh, things that uh, like lullabies that, you know, you just didn’t do that on a five string banjo. So uh, I started writing things in that vein and uh, also the up-tempo things and things that were sort of in between, march type things uh, a piece called Rocky Road to Kansas and uh, Dixie Banner. They were kind of little home town march type tunes that were very Appalachian sounding. So it... it um, moving to Ohio really did open up a whole new world for me and the banjo.

Q: So how is Ohio bluegrass different from where you came from when you were playing bluegrass in Ohio, as well?

TONY: Bluegrass music in Ohio is uh, very similar to bluegrass music in Tennessee and bluegrass music all over the world. We were in Japan and a Japanese bluegrass band sounded liked Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs. It just blew my mind, wonderful players. And it’s like that in Yugoslavia and Germany uh, everywhere we travelled we run into musicians that played bluegrass music and... and they’d do it well. They’ve learned from recordings and uh, DVD’s and CD’s and books and various types of instructional materials. But uh, the basic thing of bluegrass music is the banjo and the guitar and the fiddle and mandolin and a base and sometimes a dobrogh, which is a steel... acoustic steel guitar. So they uh, the music hasn’t changed all the much. There are more modern approaches by some groups or some individuals but basically it... it’s very much intact and a lot of fun. And a bluegrass musician that plays with a band in Tennessee can step on stage with a band in Ohio and get along just fine... it all work.

Q: Well we got into this a little bit. You played in festivals all over Ohio, the United States, basically around the world. Now why do you do that and how... how is the music received?

TONY: I enjoy playing at festivals that are primarily folk festivals, sometimes bluegrass festivals. But the folk festivals include bluegrass music as well as all kinds of other music’s. And I enjoy music’s from other things uh... other areas, other indigenous groups of people and uh, world music and it’s all fascinating to me. So folk festivals are what I enjoy the most and I’ve got to play for a lot of them uh, El Paso, Texas, Chicago, uh England, Scotland uh, just various places and its fun to get to meet musicians from other walks of life and... and other influences. And I learned from them. I learned uh, things that they do that are interesting that I can apply to what I do. So uh, therefore, uh, it... it’s a constant learning experience. We were in Central America and played there for three weeks for the state department. And uh, came away from there with a tune I call Mama Wanna, which is a... a... a very intoxicating, beverage that they serve that’s supposed to cure anything... guaranteed to make you well. And I didn’t drink any of it. My son was brave enough to taste it and I was afraid of it. I saw what was in it. And uh, all kinds of leaves and weeds and roots and things, so I... I didn’t drink Mama Wanna but I did write a banjo tune called wa—Mama Wanna and it has a Latin flavor to it. So that was fun to get that. And then we were in Belarus more recently and uh, got to get acquainted with the history of people from Belarus which has been a very dark history. They’re wonderful people. We enjoyed that trip as much as any trip we’ve ever had anywhere. But uh, we came home from there with a piece of music called Belarus. So we... we pick up and learn from various influences and places that we go.

Q: What are you taking to those people that you’ve met?

TONY: When we play in foreign countries uh, we... we try to give them a real down home sampling of Appalachian music from America. We’ll do uh, the old mountain tunes like Let Me Fall, the ol’ Moonshiners song. Of course, they all know about moonshine so they enjoy that. And uh, we also give them a little bit of a historic perspective with songs like John Henry. And uh, then there’s Jessie James about the uh, the bank robber and train robber, fellow of... of great fame. And it’s interesting that everywhere we play all around the world they’ve heard Jessie James and they can follow along with you on the chorus and sing along with you on uh, Jessie James. That’s.... that’s really fun to see that, but it’s enjoyed everywhere.

Q: Now do you support uh, the preservation of traditional music you—in Ohio and especially here in southern Ohio and you developed an organization uh, that presents, you know, musicians here in the county, is that correct?

TONY: We try to uh, encourage the continuation of traditional American music here in Ohio, in...in particular using Ohio musicians. And we’ve had some excellent programs here at the farm. We’ve had a continuing series of programs uh, we’ll have three, maybe four concerts a year here at the farm... uh, we have a pavilion down here and... and uh, we’ve had some great programs. And uh, sometimes we get out of state people. We’ve had Kenny Baker and Josh Graves, and uh, Shamas Caulley the ten time all Ireland National Fiddle Champion. And we’ve had uh, Billy McCombiskins, Ann McCloud and uh, uh, Brendan Mullvahille, great Irish fiddler. And uh, then we’ve had Dixieland music and all kinds of things that uh, incorporate traditional American music and uh, we...we really try to keep that alive and well and in the forefront of local entertainment in Pickaway County. The Ohio Arts Council’s been very good to me and uh, I have to... to say thank you to them in... in a big way. They’ve been a wonderful organization and I heartily recommend anyone support anything to do with the Ohio Arts Council.

Q: Is banjo a dying art form?

TONY: Is the banjo a... a what?

Q: A dying art form. I mean are there... out there playing the banjo anywhere in traditional styles as you’d say?

TONY: Uh, the banjos are considered by some to be kind of a dinosaur as a musical instrument. Some people don’t uh, don’t view that banjo as a legitimate musical instrument, but others do. There are uh, a lot of old time players that still play the old tunes that they learned as a child and they’ve been playing these same tunes seventy-five years and they’re wonderful to hear. They continue, they’re evergreen, they just, they’re always good, but there are a lot of younger, very talented uh, banjo players who go on out into the stratosphere with a banjo. People like Bayla Fleck uh, he... he just plays things that are absolutely phenomenal and he plays with symphony orchestras and... in big settings. So the banjo is alive and well and it’s uh, gone into lots of directions and then into lots of very capable hands. So uh, while it’s still an old mountain dance instrument, it... it’s also a great instrument for accompanying folk songs. It’s also great for writing new material that... that can reach out and incorporate all kinds of music. It’s in—been involved in almost every kind of music you can imagine at some time or another and continues to reach out.

Q: So what have you done to keep the banjo out there, people who get to hear it know what it is, and keep your music alive and the tradition?

TONY: I’ve sort of been in aw of so many good banjo players being out there and one old fella told me one time, you can go out and shake a tree real hard and a dozen banjo players will fall out of it and they’re all real good. And uh, so therefore, I haven’t tried to play the same tunes that most other banjo players play. I’ve tried to develop new things for the banjo that will reach a new audience and uh, can be appreciated by people who previously wouldn’t uh, want to hear a banjo for very long. I’ve written things that uh, waltzes, lullabies, ayers, some things that are... are more strident and some things that are fun and exciting and... and I’ve had great success for a musician of my caliber. I’ve had things used in films and uh, soundtracks and uh, lots of settings that uh, that are really fun to... to uh, to have. I had a tune used in SpongeBob Square Pants and I get a... a little check from ASCAP, American Society of Music Publishers. I get a check from them occasionally for... from SpongeBob and I appreciate that very much. I don’t have a SpongeBob in my collection but I’m gonna try to find one and put him up on my mantle because I think he deserves a place of honor in my home.

Q: What inspires you to write your songs?

TONY: Things that inspire anyone to write songs, I think, are uh, personal experiences in life and... and uh, personal association and travel and uh, observing things that... that are moving in some sense. And um, so that’s what leads one to write music. Uh, it’s a reflection on your life experiences.

Q: Do you like playing banjo solo more than in a band? Is there uh... ?

TONY: Playing a banjo has lots of... of elements in it uh, lots of things that are exciting and wonderful. And I love to play with a good bluegrass band because the... the fire is there, the... the rhythm there, the... the guitar and you’re playing off of other musicians and... and it all just creates an excitement and an electricity and... and great deal of fun. But I do—I like to do solo things to, because sometimes you want to do something quiet and peaceful and let the banjo breathe and... and be more expressive than just uh, three chords and a cloud of dust. So uh... I, I play waltzes and lullabies and soft things and some things that um, the banjo has an opportunity to say that would be lost in a band setting. And my wife, Louise, plays this little chaplains pump organ with me, which gives the banjo a charming sound. I wrote a banjo tune called Steven as a tribute to a friend many years ago and we recorded that and uh, Mike Craver of the Red Clay Ramblers played the pump organ on the recording. And I was using a Double CC tuning which blue grasser’s weren’t familiar with... G tuning for bluegrass, and I put a tapo on the banjo neck to get out of C and tapoed up to E flat because that was a better key for the pump organ. Well this just created all kinds of confusion. So this... this tune came out on an album called Dixie Banner and was used as a closing theme of a film done in England. And... and it... it just... for some reason became kind of a... a hit over in England. All the banjo player’s were just clamoring trying to learn how to play this tune. They couldn’t figure it out, because it was in a strange tuning, it was in a strange key. How did he do it? So I was started getting e-mails and phone calls from England, how do you do this... how do you do... ? So uh, a fella took us to England to... to play in a banjo thing and banjo players came from all over Scotland and Wales and England and Ireland to uh, learn how to play Steven. And the combination of the pump organ and the banjo has a very charming sound. And if you go back and read the historical books about old musicians uh, old fiddler’s quite often used the pump organ as an accompanying instrument. So it... it creates a whole different thing about the banjo. And it worked really well. So uh, that’s how we ended up going to the UK and we’ve had many great trips as a result of that. But the low pump organ allows you to do things in a very quiet, very delicate setting that it really touches people. I’ve had people come up to us after concerts saying it brought tears to my eyes. Woman was crying, a woman from Japan came up to me and she said I haven’t been home to Japan in years and you played the tune Wind chimes and Nursery Rhymes and I cried. The next day she sent a piece of pottery she had made to me as a gift. I still have that. So that’s the kind of rewards you get. You don’t make any money; it’s a labor of love. You know, it’s almost starvation time when you play a banjo but it’s a lot of fun.