In Black America; The Black Church After The Waco Tragedy

From the Longhorn Radio Network, the University of Texas at Austin, this is In Black America. However we define, what do we call them, cults, hero groups, whatever, that will always be a certain segment of the general populace that will be most supportive of cults. You ask me the reason why, for some reason, that are those persons who can be ever so brilliant, be ever so wealthy, ever so beautiful. Take all of those red attributes and adjectives, descriptions. But within those persons and even others that I didn't even mention here, we have what we call character flaws, genetic flaws, personality flaws, etc. In which persons would rather be a part of a group, rather than to figure things out for themselves.

Reverend Freddie B. Dickson Sr., pastor of Wesley United Methodist Church in Austin, Texas. Everyone by now has heard, seen or read about the tragedy near Waco, Texas, in which members of a cult died in what authorities are calling a massive suicide. More than 70 men, women and children died in the fire, which was the final chapter and a 51-day standoff between federal agents and the Branstad Vidion cult. There were an estimated 40 African Americans, out of 120 cult members in the Branstad Vidion. As the days passed after the Inferno, African Americans across the country were shocked to learn that there were so many black members in the cult. Why did these black members turn away from more traditional religious beliefs? I'm John L. Hanson Jr., and welcome to another edition of In Black America. This week, the black church in the aftermath of the Waco tragedy with Reverend Freddie B. Dickson Sr. in Black America.

We're all striving towards perfection, but that church is that place where community, the fellowship, the conania, the body of believers gather. And there's nothing that can take the place of the church in terms of its influence, in terms of its guiding, probing, reconciling for us in a community. And the people make up the church, okay? Strangely as they might be, God uses us all for his collective goodness, and that's who we are as the church. After the American religion in this country was conceived against the background of slavery and segregation, gave the African American an opportunity to be free while still in chains. The black church grew out of the expulsion of black worshipers from white churches. Without schools and social centers, the black churches became the focal point for community activities, and from the black church emerged distinguished leaders.

Black church membership expanded greatly after the Civil War. Greatest growth was by the Baptist who had 500,000 members by 1870. The Methodist Epistubal Church split over the question of slavery into the North and Southern factions. After the 51-day standoff near Waco, Texas, between federal agents and the Branstavian cult, many African Americans are trying to understand why so many of them were of African ancestry. Recently, I spoke with Reverend Freddie B. Dickson Sr., pastor of Wesley United Methodist Church in Austin, Texas. There is a passage in the book of Jeremiah, the 1st chapter, and it starts with the 4th verse, through the 10th verse, and in that chapter, Jeremiah raises a real serious question with God. The question Jeremiah raises is the question about his relationship with God and how that relationship came about, and God begins to say to Jeremiah, I have some special designs for you.

Jeremiah, in midway, that 1st chapter, and in between that 4th and 10th verse, uses a little phrase, but I am only a child. And God then says to him, Jeremiah, I knew you before you were ever formed in the womb, Jeremiah, you were my creation, I created you, I designed you for purposes that I have in mind for you to do for me. You can't escape it, Jeremiah. With that in mind, what am I saying? I find myself kind of like Jeremiah. I grew up in a home where my father is a minister of the United Methodist Bishop and the United Methodist Church, and as a result of my father being a minister from my very birth. I guess I was destined to be a minister, so I was nurtured in the womb and since the womb towards being one person of God.

Could you give us some insight into what one must undertake to become a minister? Well, when you begin to say that, that's a rather broad question. I think when one begins to really deal with, here's her call, I think they need to take serious that call. A lot of times, I'm reminded of that old Booker T. Washington story, where the fellow was out in the field plowing and all of a sudden it was all for hot, and he saw something up there, he said, go plow, but he thought it meant go preach, and he got away, but the whole mule over there said, I'm sure glad he's gone. But when persons take seriously their call, they must understand that it is a commitment not to be taken lightly. It is a lifelong covenant that they make with God to do God's work, to be faithful to Him, and they need to recognize that the kind of reward

that God says they will reap is not the secular worldly kind of reward. God is not going to let you starve. I mean, you're not going to be homeless, et cetera. But for the sake of going into it in order to acquire great money and be famous and all of this is for the wrong reason, you go in it because you want to be a servant of the people, a servant in the mode of Jesus Christ, a servant is one who is willing to serve and who understands what that servant motif is all about. One must have an education, one must go to school. In the ministry now, it's not enough to be articulate, but one must have a sense of management, one must have a sense of finance. You have a fiduciary responsibility for making a budget, for overseeing that budget, for raising that budget,

for directing that budget, for missions and for organization and for maintenance, et cetera. People are expecting, or rather the church or the organization, will be expecting you to have some kind of input, some kind of knowledge. You will be also expected to, particularly if you are within the black tradition, you cannot help but be involved in community ministry. You must relate to the community. You can't be a part of the black church or any church now for that matter and not have a sense of community, that is doing something for the sake of the community. So the call involves a lot. Your personality has a lot to do with it, how you get along with people, you will find yourself always getting along with people. So your people skills will certainly need to be sharpened and you will need to work on it.

So a well-roundedness is a prerequisite commitment and the covenant that you've made with God to follow through on that covenant. Most of African-Americans in this country are members of either African, Methodist, United Methodist or Baptist and there are some Catholics. Is there a historical reason behind just those three major denominations? The historical reason for those denominations, there are some Episcopalians and there are some Presbyterians. There are those Blacks who are Catholic. There are those who are part of the Church of God in Christ and we are found in most of not in great numbers that he is but back to your question and the historical reason. During slavery and after slavery, it was the religious groups, Friedman's Aid Society which was the government, et cetera, but founded a number of colleges and universities throughout the South, particularly Afro-American.

It had in it various denominations and the two predominant denominations that befriended the early Afro-slays or the Methodists and the Baptist. As a result of that, you had a great number of persons who became converts of the Baptist Church and the Methodist Church because they were the first ones to the fields of harvest for converts. As a result of that, you then further had a division within the Methodist rank where you had, now you call them United Methodists but then it was a Methodist Episcopal Church north and Methodist Episcopal Church south and then we became the United Methodist Church.

In 1898, we merged with the evangelical brothers and we became the United Methodist Church. It took on a new name, a new unification. But within that rank we had, as I mentioned, the United Methodist, the African Methodist Episcopal and African Methodist Episcopal Zion, the colored Methodist ECME which they are now called the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church. These were branches of Methodism as well as the Baptist which have divided into what we call Southern Baptist, the American Baptist, etc. The last time we spoke televangelism was at an all-time high. There aren't that many today. In your opinion, what happened?

In my opinion, last time we talked about that, I was rather conciliatory in my understanding but one of the things that happens, and it happens to us all, so very often we get enamored with ourselves, with our capabilities. And then we even get to the point that we seem to think that we can be God. And many of the televangelists got to the point that they felt that they were just basically above God. And it comes a point in time when God says, hey, I am God. And you should have no other God before me, whether it's an ego of self or whether it's wealth or power or whatever it is. Those early persons began to become rather greedy, rather self-centered and rather hearty, and God brought them down. Their devious deceptions, devious nature, caught up with them. And rightfully so, they began to set in judgment, harsh judgment.

And the Bible says, hey, we need to be careful of when we begin to set in judgment. Because if we do, we too will be judged as well. But those who were rather harsh, rather greedy, we have seen them brought low. Is there a difference between Christianity and religion? No. Religion, yes. Religion is what we would call the broader area. I said no at first voyages. Religion is what is the broader area. Religion would be the old encompassing umbrella upon which various denominations would occur. Christianity is that segment that would take place under that umbrella. Just as Judaism, just as Islam, just as Catholicism, I'm naming groups.

These Greek Archivists, I can go on and on and on down the list. But Christianity comes as a result of that. Christianity comes as a result of the belief in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who lived on this earth and who died and who was resurrected for us all. And that's who we are as Christians. That's how we've come to be known as Christians. Has the church addressed itself to many of the social problems that are plaguing society, i.e. the church in general and Wesley here in Austin?

When you say that, I need to be a little bit more clarification. Mr. Hanson, then clarification needs to be made. What is it that you're saying that the church needs to do, or we have done, or we're doing, or we should be doing? Because the field is so wide. It's like going out there, of course you are northerner and you wouldn't know that much about watermelons. But you can go out there and see a lot of watermelons. And you can begin to thump on them. And that's art to the thumping because the sound that you get when you thump a watermelon indicates certain things, ripeness, shape, how thick, you know, how, you know. So I guess what I'm saying is that there are so many things that we can be doing as the church. Okay, let me stay some examples. Single parent homes, teen pregnancy, drugs, gang violence, just those four.

Okay, many churches throughout the country are attempting to address those issues. And some besides that one, besides the ones that you have mentioned. And some others are some have founded AA groups within that church is just to go a little bit further. Some have what they call extended care for the elderly. That is those elderly persons that are ambulatory who can walk a little bit can come to the church and they can drop them off and they can do certain things form. You you you follow what I'm saying to you so they're providing all kinds of programs. The church is doing is not doing enough can not really keep up can do more we should could do more all of those things. So the church is is at refuge which seeks to reach out and minister to the community in many facets. And we here at Wesley seek to do that.

But churches are like persons they have different personalities. And as you know some churches are equipped financially with their physical structure to do certain things. Within those hallowed walls and then some churches are not equipped because of inhibiting factors as a result of their structure. So they need to do what thin disciples rather than have a ministry coming into the you know emanating from the church out. And people coming in and going out there are those churches that have persons who practice that discipleship as ambassadors at large on behalf of that church which is just as meaningful and productive as a program within the church. But they go into the homes into the institutions into the organizations to do certain things.

Being here Wesley from for some twenty-eight years. During that period how has your ministry changed? Is it adapted to the congregation or to society's changes? It has, my ministry has taken many forms. When I first got here we were in a neighborhood surrounded with many social problems. My church was an old inner city church. Its structure was in need of repair. It was in need of the church was in need of extending itself at the same time beyond its walls because a number of folks that we weren't doing anything to kind of reach out. And there were times in my ministry at the church when the church wasn't quite ready to reach out but I was ready to reach out and sometimes you had to be patient. And I would reach out and go and extend myself as ambassador at large and the church then would wait on out and then there were times when we needed to draw in what began to do some things within the church such as renovating.

But I always held before them that if we are to be a beacon light we must be in ministry unto ourselves and unto others. So therefore what we did was we were very much instrumental in as you know establishing the urban league here in this town. There was a House Bill 72 for many persons across the nation who do not know. That was some legislation passed back in the late 80s which brought about some sweeping changes in the secondary and elementary educational schools within the state of Texas. And there were certain things that were mandated. Well we were all a proposal. We were right in the middle of that dealing with some suspension centers and we influenced some legislation which dealt primarily with those children who were suspended from school.

We helped prepare that legislation etc. We have done you know those are just some of the things that we have done to reach out into the community to say hey we are trying to do some things here. In the late 70s and most of the 80s a lot of black Americans and Americans in general someone is showing away from the church. Are they coming back? Yes. The church has always been and will continue to be the anchor for the black community. We can't you know we've tried to substitute the business community. We've tried to substitute social service organizations but there is nothing that can take the place of the church. That church regardless of how beautiful the edifice, how small the edifice, whatever you want to call it. It's not going to be perfect. It's imperfect. The people that make it up are not going to be the most glamorous folk.

They're not going to be the well intentioned folk but whoever said that we had to be perfect because we aren't. We're all striving towards perfection. But that church is that place where community, the fellowship, the conineer, the body of believers gather us. And there's nothing that can take the place of the church. In terms of its influence, in terms of its guiding, probing, reconciling for us in a community. And the people make up the church. Strange as they might be, God uses us all for his collective good. And that's who we are as the church. So the first thing is you have to say, well where are they? And once you understand where they are, then you can begin to see where part of the problem is. And part of our problem is that we need to begin to kind of pick back up on what I said earlier about Jeremiah, shake that foundation and make sure that that foundation is solid.

So that when the young men get to be about nine or 10, or moving on up around 14 or over, we don't start losing them. But that the foundation will solid and we can continue to steer them in a direction. And probably say, you know, train a child in a way in which they should grow and when they grow old, they will never depart from it. But somehow when children get around nine years of age, dead junior high, at seventh grade, they begin to smell themselves as my old mother used to say, and they begin to move off. We want to not let them move off in that direction. We want to move them back in the direction of full productivity and the direction that God would want them to be in.

We're a hundred miles from Waco here in Austin, Texas, the 51 day standoff, you know, included 120 some members of the Branstad Vity and 40 of them were African Americans. Is there a difference between cults and religion? And if we look at Jones town, we still see a similar numbers of African Americans involved in cults. However, we define them, what we call them, cults, hero groups, whatever, that will always be a certain segment of the general populace that will be most supportive of cults. You ask me the reason why, for some reason, there are those persons who can be ever so brave, be ever so wealthy, ever so beautiful.

You can take all of those red attributes and adjectives, descriptions. But within those persons and even others that I didn't even mention here, we have what we call character flows, genetic flows, personality flows, etc. In which persons would rather be a part of a group rather than to figure things out for themselves, to use the discipline on their own, to do what they know is right by themselves and others. But there are those in the populace who feel comfortable throwing up their hands and acquiescing their powers as individuals and saying somebody, somebody, please take over my life and tell me what to do.

And we will forever have that kind of person in society who will belong to cults. And then what happens is finally they wake up one day and they smell the roses and they realize that hey, I got power, I have for brain, I have feelings, I have need, I need to thank for myself. And when they do that at that point, it's too late. If you have a question or comment or suggestions after future in black America programs, write us, views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for in black America's technical producer Walter Morgan, I'm John L. Hansen Jr. Please join us again next week.

For set copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing in black America cassettes, longhorn radio network, communication building B, UT Austin, Austin, Texas 78712. From the center for telecommunication services, the University of Texas at Austin, this is the longhorn radio network. I'm John L. Hansen Jr. Join me this week on in black America. We had as always persons who love to take script and translate that script according to the way I want to see. The black church in the aftermath of the Waco tragedy this week on in black America.