The Homosexual: A New Minority; 10; Homosexuality and Civil Liberty

he's from gay x they actually fm station of the san francisco theological seminary riverside radio presents one in a series of ten programs the homosexual new minority review and survey how to continually controversial problem which haunts america today homosexuality for the series the reverend john b mor minister of the glide memorial methodist church axes moderator we are here today to consider the issue of homosexuality and civil rights have seated at the table here marshall across an attorney for the american civil liberties union ten mako battle of the blighted urban center and her donaldson an attorney what we begin with the question do homosexuals saw for i'm just discrimination who lied to speak first to this question will all volunteer sense then or now

seems to be knowing that you kind of unjust discrimination is there any discrimination which is not unjust that people are treated differently we suspect that the law requires a place that there be some rational basis for treating differently i don't know where there's any rational basis for singling out homosexuals and treating them any differently under the law i don't know that he was serving as a ploy to homosexuals maybe some but they're generally not think the problem comes in enforcement of the law and one can certainly raise a question as to whether police departments have it out for homosexuals and they think someone is a homosexual well they arrest them without any real crime being committed other harass them well they beat them up will they mistreat them will they harass their employer all these things are new

enforcement a lot what about the enforcements specifically ax or a lot less eight individuals involved in specific acts as their discrimination here between heterosexuals homosexuals for example as i understand it was really pertain to x and not to whether an individual or the homosexual or heterosexual i think you know there's certainly is the very emphatic there is discrimination enforced these most of all they supposedly preventable or a sexual and on sexual conduct initially i feel that the whole socialist discriminate against union force and other laws approach any criminal activity which do not pertain to sexual activity for example i feel for my experience that on sexual was drunk is a much easier rest the narrow sexual was drunk hair was

actually from quite often we actually care in the seventies when it was probably am reflection of the prejudice against persons who are homeless central you might find the same thing truitt negroes are mexicans depending on the year individual proclivity of the policemen and i know what we can do about that please mention now that we're all equal before the law and they probably hear that said once or twice in their training courses that they get a training course how can we really make that a meaningful restriction that were all equal before the law and that now the police have an attitude that they're somehow protecting the public eye in a sense picking out persons who they know to be homosexuals and

watching them carefully assuming that their so called bad people live and a feeling that please hand feel that they have some light to discriminate set against homosexuals because they are homosexuals they were in talks with them feel that they're somehow protecting the laws of god is not the laws of the land and that they have a right to be kind of the watchdogs of public morality when asked about this they just assumed that they had the right do korea was actually way they wanted to be as a few tiers of preventive aspect of the law you know when people start talking about public morality what they really means their more arty whatever they believe is right suddenly becomes so everyone should conduct himself says this isn't

a band reflection on our tolerance for freedom difference in a society we shared throughout our whole educational system play up the fact that this country is one which can tolerate differences of all sorts and as a matter fact has thrived on those differences but instead and there still is a us strong pressure for conformity especially the new kind of conformity that people can say is good moral corner their turns do you think that the enforcement of a particular police force regardless of the community in which it might be situated reflects what this police force or those responsible for determination of policy what they believe to be public opinion or public consensus as to morality well perhaps it does if you take a public opinion poll as to whether people should be allowed to be homosexuals and of course a

lot depends on how you frazier questions in public opinion polls you probably get a majority say no even though it's not a question of allowing it's a question of dealing with people who are homosexuals rather than allowing that if you take a public opinion poll on what aspects of race relations you might find out the result a variance with constitutional rights and same might be true about freedom of speech or unpopular groups such as communists or something of that sort i think we have an obligation to support them freedom and equality under the law regardless of public opinion and i don't think that's the only consideration i'm a little concerned about in this area that we're talking about that is homosexuality want me statements made by many individuals is that the law ought to discriminate against the homeless sexual because

these persons say that homosexuals commit crimes of molestation violence against persons is is this a fact and that's ridiculous the homosexuals probably the most non violent it is the whole social whom i've had contact i don't think they're given to violent so i was faced with this a year or so ago when i had a conceptual presenting before a federal judge nine cents is what my dad and this judge in talking actually was explaining the reason for his severe sentence because he felt that this sort of conduct would lead next to molesting children and from there was only a question of time until he engaged in acts of violence against people in general recently there was an article in the paper they say where they were

they have a regular part in those walking through and immediately they went out and picked up two hundred known was actually going to laugh at this and the implication press from song might not be clearer well and these are male homosexuals a pickup or not interest and raping a woman at all would be the last people to that the concern was spent its mixed up that somehow person and homosexuals on the same thing and this is just ridiculous it's pretty well substantiated now the terms of a child molester he was a child was that doesn't care whether the child as male or female they simply will last a trial as a child and this route into and homosexuality and all that actual are generally more open about their sexual

conduct and somehow this may give people the feeling that they are some more sexual percent fully vaccinated or and i have some other reason to be more interested in sex and then when i'm homosexual bill marshall it was it was a more open and no sexual conduct it i feel that they're now and a knowledge mean by more openness it's a wonder what i meant by more open now that i think through what i mean to say is that that's where they fail that they can express themselves openly they will be more open about sexual conduct but say i'm in them bars were homosexuals one frequent be a companionship i think will be probably a more open and the big interest in other people will

be more open maybe i'm wrong on that i don't know the vatican says they need that i've been in and lots of gay bars and what's the fellows so standing around and talking or at events at a bar where there were female homosexuals people are talking in groups of people are there's not the same kind of line and her patients that i see lots of time and heterosexual bart i'm not as young and pretty is so nobody's ever made it past him in a gay bar here and i don't know i i you know what i was was getting an a little better so i can explain myself here we have created a category called the homosexual witches specifically a sexual category we don't categorize other groups as to their sexual preference is that homosexuals are

categorized by their sexual preference and this really focuses attention on what their sexual conduct will be and when you think of this group you think of this group in terms of their sexual conduct and i think that's why when when we when we hear think of homosexuals or the public thinks of homosexuals they think of sexual crimes because sexual crimes are more discussed and more written about in our society and sex itself i hope that explains my position a little better and i'm glad i went through this because i am learning a little myself if the openness of which you speak retains more homosexuals do you have in mind perhaps sort of putting an arm around another person of the same sex are kissing a person of the same sex has this kind of this way that strikes us more forcefully at least between males

than and between prisons of opposite sex well i don't think it's a question of that in public is more striking when done between person's of the same sex and persons of the opposite sex that is it will attract more attention you feel ugly of the laws should all all persons but let's say that but the law should be of a single standard whether the person is heterosexual or homosexual and that was acceptable between person's of opposite sex for example in public or also to be acceptable in between person's of the same sex for abramoff and say yes this this would be desirable i just can't see it coming for example nobody thinks anything about a man in a bar putting his arm around a girl or a

heterosexual barr nobody really thinks anything about a man putting his arm around another man i was up at fort bragg a few years ago at a lot of lumber jack sparrow and the bars are filled with nothing but man there just aren't that many women around these numbers as common and seven and then they're very affectionate they go around and they were there on each other they talk they land they act in some senses childish but they engage in conduct which nobody thinks anything all our give any of these guys had been homeless actual bars you have seen several abc agents in their gathering evidence and making arrests let's move on from the injustice and in terms of the law or other kinds of injustice to homosexuals saw for it if any job discrimination let's say a i

think many homosexuals would lose their jobs if it were discovered that they were homosexuals the civil service commissioner united states says any person who is homosexuals may not be employed by the government of the united states regardless of how well he does this job and how well he conducts himself on the job and how well he conducts himself off the job and regardless of whether or not he's in any sort of security sensitive position and wears a person has a homosexual can be part of the government there you are the most open discrimination against homosexuals we got this with homosexuals active or not could you elaborate on that herbert the armed forces on a policy of separating homosexuals from service and this doesn't matter whether the person has served honorably ten twenty or thirty years this person is no longer considered to be at

two certainly armed forces i know an individual who retire are we in the navy as a flying officer and about five years after retirement was court martialed for non sexual conduct and i have yet to see a retired the armed forces officer being court martialed for heterosexual conduct is as the separation from the service a different from an honorable discharge or certainly they either separate true according to when events occurred with an undesirable or other than honorable conditions or a general discharge this of course means a liability for anyone seeking employment when they ask is certainly armed forces in a kind of discharge the movie's going to have to say he didn't serve and the interesting thing is i've known young

fellows who've been discharged from service as homosexuals who are not homosexuals but simply had been at a party where there were some homosexual activity or simply been walking along more or been in the company of homosexuals and they simply were thrown out of the service there wasn't even a matter of a trial there's such a word the government argues that homosexuals in positions were security issues are involved are real jeopardy you think that this is a realistic case or what might be set on either side of this issue marshall so there's some realistic factors to have the person has anything that he's constantly whether it's the fact that he's a sexual or the fact that he's an alcoholic or the fact that he is is anything that would not be enhancing good reputation and prevail

makes it difficult for him through all the high security position because it makes them susceptible to bribery for failing to release this information to his employer be on security problem is a difficult on and i think that in many cases they're a homosexual who have nothing to fear this security risk but one who but the thing is that this is a self creating situation because he only fears revelation of his homosexuality because he would lose his job and he can't he can't reveal it because he was on the job would you say or what you think any of you that if you would not of a certain to lose his job that the blackmail possibility would be altogether removed here are largely then he added ways to get

this close to his employer whether situation has and then there would be no plaque no possibility unless it or something such as exposure in the newspapers i think that where you have humans again have blackmail possibility because each each person has something in his life that he prefers not to have other people know about whether this is his sexual proclivity an alcoholic why or a father and mother who may have abandoned him when he not want to nominate each person has something they don't want to rest to know sexual there's one thing that did he have do you see individuals i've suffered from unjust discrimination over and above or in addition to the matter of the law as the law is written and enforcement of the law and in

john one under smith has just joined us than there were glad to have you here an attorney in san francisco what other forms of discrimination other than the law and employment opportunities do you see in terms of persons were on sexual discrimination in seeking in restaurants i know americans who prefers superman sexual of in the back part so that people can see them on the central couple and their discrimination serving in heterosexual bars were some bartenders refused to serving homosexuals often as he does the heterosexual there are all sorts of subtle forms of discrimination how many of the homosexuals are identifiable as such to talk about this on site discrimination well a lot of people have the idea that they have some that given quality of tom homosexuals

some people think that where they see two men wore out to dinner out the theater the surveys that this novel sexual couple of the police are especially i think a guilty of feeling they can tell more sexual and half from holland in it something they can tell a good deal of discrimination in housing after it to their living any particular housing project and so situations where landlord has asked them to leave the jazz in rooms actually knew they were ideal tenants in a way i think we should also say that there's a subtle kind of discrimination towards homosexuals as some of us know the idea of people that they own the sexual mars first of all be cured and become a heterosexual and then he can come to church we see discrimination this one

let's go in to monitor an area now do you think that homosexuals should see themselves consciously is a minority group that they ought to organize to secure their civil rights evander regular to speak to this question and john this is really pronounced baht because this is something that i have talked to other people discuss at all everything that has been said certainly is true that on this group is discriminated against now as to whether the people who are feeling this discrimination are going to be willing to identify themselves in order to become more organized in a cohesive body is probably something that will never occur it seems like the discrimination which occurs in so many minority groups where they have characteristics that

indemnify them such as color or the slant of their eyes or the physics this is a group that is attending a woman to sabol made themselves completely into society so that they would not be invited you know then they are experiencing these these attacks and subtle forms as a kid so the problem is not whether they should identify themselves and become a force but the problem is one that they will never identify themselves and end working with different groups are homosexuals you find that one group does not let's say are aspiring to the same golden other groups and this is a good now it sounds like this is a group that cannot be organized this is going to end that shows you that you have a spectrum of all

types of people education wires actually requires religious was so that should be organizing the oceans now so as you can see i am come a long way around to the starting point and that is that prohibition on the organized because they should be accepted as they are and that is as human beings and once they are so accepted then your question of shouldn't be organized has been obviated i would say they should not be organized because they should be accepted as individuals i would say they should be an executive and they do it oh ok let's ask them this question which relates to this issue not a problem sexual can do for themselves but what and the community are concerned persons in the community do we've agreed i think generally the least among ourselves where greed that prisons were homosexuals specially man who suffer on just discrimination the work

i understand state of illinois has adopted a law pertain to a call on sexual conduct which is different from the other forty nine states the district of columbia went what hope is there for gaining greater civil rights for prisons or on sexual head like they certainly laws need to be changed our talking to some people on no i am aware of a problem in illinois as not a lobbying team that away please enforce laws and i have just as many problems in chicago and in illinois i have in other parts of the country in many ways we have less problem in sentences go than they do in chicago and yet the law's quite different in the state of illinois that we must have this but also we must be especially conscious watching our po one

community so the individual rights regardless of who it is or what their sexual re story and i've been a writer acted as individuals this is an aspect that a mature society can accept people who are different than i think you can have an ongoing educational effort all kinds of people matter what their proclivities on their merits as individual and this is a moment to our society it seems to me that as we sum up what we've had to say today that where an agreement that homosexuals suffer unjust discrimination were in disagreement least two of us about whether they ought to organize groups and secure their civil rights and those of you have spoken of the issue feel that they're influencing public opinion has a great deal to do with the freedom the civil rights of these persons peek peek

speak the homosexual new minority you've been listening to the concluding program and a series of ten on the subject of homosexuality in america today singing talk to the homosexual and celebrities the moderator for this series has been the reverend john been more disturbed by the moral methodist church california these programs were originally produced it actually at the station of the san francisco theological seminary riverside radio welcomes your comments and opinions of this final series this is their money while they are the fm station of the riverside church in the city of new york one or six point seven fm