The American Nun

as i understand it the main point of your article end of your forthcoming book is that there is currently in the american catholic church a struggle among the nuns for emancipation what signs are there of the struggle just awaken well i think that the external signs the ones that are getting the most publicity of the ones of father shawn i focused on the beginning the piece of the obvious ones the changing dress nuns on the picket line a nun they admitted to the supreme court practice and none was a consultant in the job corps which israelis consider amount of interest about these formidable interested ladies in black and white what's happening to have a gun but certainly join the human race what is the situation it so happens that this is one of the chapters in the book which looks the catholics in america in general are possessed us to focus in on the american not in the article reread not it's called american on four chased and arrested and we described the rest of quality using these signs of let's

say of emancipation or signs of growing change not to prove the case of the nuns suddenly fully emancipated but that she's growing arrested demanding more change and moving to it and i think we're talking about the o story of female emancipation that's why in the piece we mentioned women and the singing we shall overcome was not only from martin luther king was susan b anthony right in there because they were saying that kind of female emancipation but lately maybe fifty sixty years be an american women but it's now coming up in the american nun oh sure how widespread do you think this is i think it is already a last ten years become much more widespread than the current research would tend to indicate as roy pace is something as he is in the process of emancipation prices is something starts slowly is with picking up speed is picking up steam i would i would guess our citizens at a goodyear that something is affecting something close to thirty

forty percent of the total number of guns in america that saturday thousand nuns four hundred navy orders with the lawyers for five six members of seven hundred and one of the problems is generalizing is that every one that you say at about someone will say c or b o d very difficult to generalize where these nuns are spread over forty orders and move for them to them as the balkans because they are or are separate and pis leaves each and about brain differently separately with its own superior and only in the last decade have even really talked for one wanted to be on the novel ways the ecumenical spirits even though among minorities religious orders the catholic church this here was handed to an iranian terms of time prices had last ten twenty years but it is a corruptive i was a great speech here in terms of what they're moving away from the old idea was that the man was a

retired finery find type of lady who didn't get too involved in things outside of our own little city are several little are several little a convent now this is what we maintain today is no longer a satisfactory to most now undergoing a reason that it's the comet is not the place to go as the war and july when you describe that time and many describe a traditional woman was always like this correctly you'll be a european woman who was the expected to be retiring type see what is happening here as far as i can see a jar is the dynamic duo american society has its emancipation the woman she's breaking away from traditional roles the rule to this day was in the past was to be subservient to be retiring to say nothing don't think yourself dress agrees others not yourself and do it in a word something a morsel of a child this i think is breaking down even twenty

years as book and i suppose i think about food and people realize that public buses even the nuns of our children and realize it was but also i think that the point to grace what we discussed and analyze this aspect of the entire problem is if you're really still left with a stretcher which as much as the nun's one emancipation they can't be structured ozone from a performance a pension that's why we call them rest actually it did that i used to sing his restless arrested is a better word yes yes because it is that they're still doing this this is a movement within that is still being somewhat pressured not to happen they'd have the holy land this is this is totally obvious this is the rest of this restless let's talk some more about the framework within which this revolution is taking place what are its characteristics and it's a bit on email fashioned traditional male society which is commonly india non western an urbanized non industrial nations and this is a

carryover structure which surrounds an underdog about a church institution which is quite traditional male dominated only example we said in the article is that when the vatican council was convened no one ever put them any woman even listen when stressful and finally have permitted women were just the more revealing insight into the situation is that the congregation in rome that determines and goblins and approve any changes or regulations about how women religious live as and how one woman's voice and just over traditional situation where the man legislate and a woman or raise this and this is the fellow that emotion is this all about a local parish in a routine disney there than that is supposed to teach what she had been taught to what she's been taught to teach by the day the priest pastors to the priest assistant to perry's order confessor or some other male figure is selling to do with having a

day as nuzzle get up now they are becoming experts that since a candidate and son a professional expert knowledge of teaching that the standout snobby gives the structural problem is now as it being a little bit cool two fourth right to feminists to independent this is a manifestation of stay out of other strains occurring here that they're working against the traditional structure to traditional patriarchal male dominated sort of organization we shall overcome easy this is this was overcoming is with the working on it and to me is is a typical american female pressure that you say in your article that there aren't even conflicts within each community of nuns yes the rhyme eighty thousand nuns interest is distributed through our hundreds of former navy orders now under the

male patriarchal system each one of these tends to have its own in a car or a bishop was some clerical clergy type of male protector guys these are independent within the structures in the church this is reflected in the relative independence of the georgia wrote every other order the idea warders of nuns are counselors be in the band and this is quite for me and this is this gets effects of this balkanization refer to each one day isn't your country to its own his own parts on its own living within itself they will come in terms of the toll as the youthful colic to a public good which each it's always answers but together theres no will come away answers it's very hard for example in ordinary circumstances a number of extraordinary circumstances but the owners are very hard for a for now is a tall across these lines are strangers to one they may be very good friends very close gas supplies are a closely knit wit in oregon but fewer cross

borders this is i'm going to say a jungle as the balkanization is grueling the district attorney for and they also say this that from the viewpoint of a nineteen sixty american very many of these orders come from all european traditions one convent is for polish on another candidate for the german nuns a lot of the order orders especially along the east or east coast are more irish in effect another was the immigrant the puzzle immigration in church in a news organization does is tied across any kind of lies culturally this one applies the problems in the nuns' order has built more specifically what kind of conflicts occurred within each community in the community who he would refer to react when you when all the main point of the article with different groups of nuns we've found as you reported that you were right you left safely but he discovered that there was

a great gap in the reactions between the only young enough yes this is a simple obvious reactions you get what we did do is because of this the material or performers chapter in three rather large orders immediately there were getting three in a pattern of the ones i was interesting to watch the other ones that approval questions were such iconic to get to see more of what's already say in an almost dry proportion as this was going on your words were standing there glaring at him and going the other way in austin inhibit that out within the order this old versus the new the new of course coming in and somewhat larger numbers be more vocal or whether they're better educated this figure within yours is very clear that it's important is in some people are actors that we know all the nuns were very flexible it's true this is their younger nuns are not flexible

silly answer to what ford brings up at night by saying that there are exceptions when the main problems about the dialogue about any constitution typically a group of nuns is it people rush of the exceptions to ignore the generalization obviously oversimplification is necessary we talk about so many women and so many different units of political religious orders certainly they are very enlightened older non but i were talking now as the general trend of your frame of mind is an episode years of the kind of rigid structure that they've been subject to living in a tightly restricted daily schedule naturally begin to accept which you've done for so long as the only an improper way what about the dialogue between the more liberal members of the clergy and of the more conservative members the singularity out the vote for the other chapters that focus on the same part of the motivation all of the coal prices were focuses upon that some priests present is or has various members

of the hierarchy the same type of thing is obvious here you're younger clergy young byline summary of the difference themselves in quotation marks as the new breed the liberal progressive assertive sometimes i might say to without too much depth of thought it has a certain amount of propaganda this it's a going concern is a global global affairs they say and they latch on to this you finally give the broad general conflicts between these clergy you see in their emancipation and they're breaking out there was a fire that tend to two word defend the younger the ordinance according to these lines it was a you know it isn't the bug is what the book is trying to say that within the roman catholicism there is this americanization process that the prices is their bylaws observable an anemone the quantity in american culture in general also affecting is affecting very deeply the entertainer church affairs and it sadly and the point of the

art treatment isn't the foremost stretch of bishop priest or non religious it's about one third of our discussion the wind is interesting about the non is this is the most extreme example of the pride the roman catholicism as he was transplant in america and that's why it's a typically cut she as well was obvious place of departure point of departing american non that's why i think the reactions are so strong look at the non he's the most extreme example of the tensions end of the stereotypes what is the justification given by the more conservative clergy for the restrictive system within which the nuns were having any good death i won't tear lately climbing the the defense of the role of the way or i think explanations but they would say well yes that lets the logical thing to say well this explanation to me at social terms of differences and again a good as well also

theological part of the historical it's the the person today alex they will cover the trainer to see things in terms of his and cranny the behavioral sciences will soon close to another way of the theologian i would say again news new and the old race here to they tend to see this the conservatives' ten season in terms of the very old patterns that worked well work effectively and shouldn't be challenged city and these terms we should keep them chained up anything to get to the facts that there is this incentive to move that was dangerous of course the theological was of course it depends upon the uk also depends upon the ideological position taking some heroes a similar flawed system theologically oriented just can't say we always realized some of the inner dynamics reason theology

breaking require that in that business series is now sum up a lot of the confidence of the voters will be available oh there were people have this view point that if you have any change to threaten the whole institution what i think reactor will stop having any nuns if you start changing what went into the great tradition of the nuns it's as if if you didn't change you deny the contribution of the past is no doubt that the catholic nuns in america has certainly been the backbone of local schools but that argument produce two that say they were there and they were they were on manpower they are economically essential tactic school institutions hospitals charitable groups can operate without this economical mantle and to suddenly say that's the realism employer or to endanger it is treading on of this structure and our discussion so far is going to run away without religious probably what is this traditional system

which the nuns are rebelling but i think a very good describing what you faced in her day at that well we've been in terms of a very the nun is expected to be the size of images via obedient to a very very close to very very carefully calculated time schedule vw of our border point with the people who the point of that value to summarize if i were five thirty you get up you rise do you go through the ordinary expected normal toiletries some oreo a small prize than expected to be in chapel ame church now let's say you have overseas about her there is something now again depending upon the rule a half hour to forty five minutes maybe an hour and given over proposed scheduled to private prayers meditation as well

as a community station prayers ruta reading after that as a surgical service which again is another half hour forty five minutes the offering of mass participation there's c sections that with republicans after which again there's another period a thanksgiving must be private sometimes community lies local localized her the stage is somewhere now about thirty you already given other words something between an hour and two hours to this type of the michael regimented spiritual exercise following this campaign day after day and so it is a lot of energy a lot of people complain in order to do it but we've begun to the entire after this you've got a few mamas work and recreation after which you appear again a very structured very orderly

but we're going to buy your breakfast you can proceed some of the table again more spiritual really activists again maybe fifteen twenty merger or about every thirty dollars that the government carries her school classroom or you worry that other things also my healthier charges are classes hit the maximum on local coffee getting them on all the playground in the classroom at which again the ivory coast guard all the educational his beloved again well you're yeah by quarter water or part of it in that classroom barricades as a dentist you are in school after which you do your best to more what has to be done here no bookkeeping the back of the coming out less about four four thirty again the convent routine he's over takes

over again you may have our assault for some soares development your clothes was brilliant picture yourself about firefighter you've probably back a chaplain an or getting ready for dinner after that another our associate communication openness on your own really recreation after which again you have to study or you do you won't work together for school for privileged next they've an ionizer the embryos tibet out that routine is kept and a very very tight schedule the degrees of human freedom in making choices between on a normal day is comparatively respect that i can only one day not so bad but month after month his you we got to wait are the people that rest the venice because the demands are parents of children who are teaching hospital yes it was someone not begin to wonder well why why why this movie and with excessive motivation of his epic an

absentee thanks ellen and resentment conflict if anyone make it differs with their real activity as teaches us a lot of money mayer have another going to college universities we enter the finding out that there's another type a routine there's another type of a dedicated the man if i'm going to be a well equipped teacher oh work with specialists in science and biology chemistry now how i put two sets of extreme asthma patient being a man in the one light something needs to give here unless they did something has been giving away the professionals asian of the role is coming to the fore what's the impact of this kind of a system on the individual man the statistics on his studies of very limited what we're able at least for the purposes of illustrating and possibly been documenting the pressure's tremendous amount of listening to fall as is fiction

but was there a quite exhausted and at the statistics bear this out there been limited studies but there was a study in the thirties there was a study a few years ago on the incidents art of cycle neurotic disturbances and it's no surprise that they have gone up among the nuns and the bullet points the conclusions of the impetus to be drawn from that is how he reduced the influence of these disturbances once you improve the system in order to accommodate the realities of the precious and also there's another trend and that is to screen the air incoming nuns much better in the first place and this has become our one of the main sign that say oh oh modernization witness it mildly the psychological testing which one is the psychologist that we call who's an establishment psychologist this testing for seminarians and religious orders in the east set quite frankly at a convention of catholic educators some of the things you've been calling virtues in nothing but

roddick traits and they are willing to listen and they're beginning to accept this realization this is a record that your offer a new article by dr john d wayne perry says first there is too much neurosis among religious sect and much of it is avoidable preventable one of the ways is a way to change this restrictive who can ization of their life to remove this pressure is unnecessary mcevers is he what i think has happened is everyone has lost sight of the handover reason these movies they become sick of their own right now to reporters ought to do more and in this context it is good place to where many of these orders of iphone was that the vast majority of them came out of other kinds of the situations you've taken a good ole days fifty nine years ago when most of the population that says europe was agricultural bill by the sun by matt provides a natural rhythm the monasteries because they were quite radical welcoming clocks you

see an end game and getting a part time scale now they knew way ahead in the way of the oil agrarian type of our economy or that culture know it has happened been sourced couples clocks today was that the niceties and anti specifically its views of time we've gotten another type of rhythm and that causes a us natural alarm but i will say it's a different type of nachos but the nuns in particular one thing holding a lot of religious people don't adapt to those rhythms of a moderate more money and away the car slightly it's like the miles college age of drive him crazy to when trying to push him into opposite directions at once i would put you on this pipeline it's different that just occurred we can understand the general run of the mill nuns would accept the view of the nazi them and nearly come to accidents or startle hangovers and how many in the intelligence nuns have you spoken to a phd graduate training other schools we're also

to a certain extent still the family's how you say the numbers of women and if they won by a whole lot but just say you were thinking over get those who don't buy it quickly are themselves causal supporters not easy even if you're a good position making decisions policymaking is not easy in omaha ne what are called fire up the sport you are two languages though the top eu and they owe them away as a general positions but i'm innocent cvs to limit the problem they talk about only one actor they will resolve our very quickly rise in the number of those who is who aren't getting into positions within our time with the willis cities i think is going to be optimistic although they are also going to have as a minister is another type of public faces quickly the puzzle with a club of unintelligible many more years of fast that knowledge of activation quit

living in the villages border insel says camilla behind it they realize they came in she and many knee catching up at the twice as fast at a job just a bit before we go on to another subject you mentioned mr wickham the process of screening which the catholic church is using more and more what kind of young woman decides to become a non rather than pursue any other role in society why i will answer the least as someone asked if to five because no young woman one of the nuns ever asked my advice and i'm sure you've had any number talk to you so you have a better incentive than i have to this certainly are women were big hit and anyone who has had contact with nuns and surprising the number of catholics much as men gather to have only seen your ingrid bergman it would seem the bells at st mary's if you folks singing nuns and think that's about as close as we get those of us who have been in class and seen them on campuses book hack the game and got lighter they are very remarkable women dedicated fully feminine intelligent percent agreement

possibly in in the heights a higher education we need the cream of the nuns that's probably true but these are dedicated women withdrawing their images in their towns in a particular direction their complaint is that these structures they move in that they entered don't permit them to commit on their images in it is a common these are the best time aggressive and there were other drones in the drug use as there aren't any system well you know i've gone into the common possibly for the wrong reasons and i think it's a less and less the fact because there are too many distractions if a girl gets to the convent at the present day teenage existence in america she's very firm of mine so you start talking about the new generation talking the last five or six or seven years where you may be completely new and different generation of nuns lively and yours i mean they will change because you know about smaller change it disappear

practically yes the that interchange are disappearing and i would say that that the hope is that they will attract now ellen pao's and how to practice will probably will focus on recruiting literature how attractive young woman of them or lesser reporter typical american woman who's an emancipated who feels free refuse independent responsible fowler track easily all your strategy either you're asking a lot more before you actually engage the snore because you think that the new immigrants coming into the country all women allowing themselves to a life of service right after service oriented ten fifteen years ago these were girls who went to pray yeah sort of a very personal spiritual and religious and harlem resident now you might say this is a peace corps i type of approach was his american pragmatism coming years and a good sense of just those around and pray that the work of prayer or just on surrounding tried to meditate you saw people into some sort of a

sublime in the us mr greenwood god again that there were against they're against that but to see this and to see this eventually through service to others other words and the mai mai were emphasizing in amman and twentieth century context the overture charity in and won the best ways that you see god not directly soon after mythical you enough to sell for eric catches development but to see him and your neighbor and i saw your neighbor that juicy cries and saw him eugene him volume criticizes american activism well maybe so but it's still is a good fundamentally sound theological basis in a no modern type of threat i'm not my favorite example is take the baking nuns which now been taken over by into mobile can become a reckoning in europe but can imagine any of the young nun's settling for sitting with a tin can on the corners their life of service

it ten years ago no one lives alone it's silly it's really quite outrageous to use a good very good human being is saving animal's stool in grand center with a campaign event only going to harvard it uses in ways says maher was first what's the center there's old louis definitely idea probably probably is not that abject misery of the problem does routine cannons and includes some mythical again not that that couldn't be right or couldn't be a us on religious think that in terms of mine century monthly a century this is interesting this way and this is what the numbers say in the twentieth century according to your article the question of reform of the american imam in the system within which she lives focus on two charges those of incompetence and irrelevance how these problems show well christine competent problem is the survey did some years ago discovered that the overwhelming majority of orders of women didn't have any way

of having they're non state college degrees and that we send them into the school system teachers the bulk of the non teachers probably hundred thousand two hundred eighty thousand are still pictures if you are sending an under educated overworked women into the question the nuns were the ones who weren't instigated the serrano appalled at what they own and naked measures to change which was something called assisted formation movement which means forming the sister according to orla directions in which he lives in one of them being education and that's been the major changeable rape is that there has been a considerable upgrading of the educational competence and training of them and that certainly has been a break but that leaves the other problem of how relevant is the woman after you've trained how relevant is to prevent the other nuns in writing some very critical things about this or stereotyped will be cringing the arrival of the and the monsignor woman on fire and

called the other moms are rejecting medicine as is a dignified way printed on the top there is a certain angle that is anybody can see it quite well but as well as long as they have these old attitudes they're going to be relevant is difficult to me as long as they're stuck on this schedule a father described that it's difficult to be relevant as long as they can visit their homes and their children they teach in school to help with them about the school prom they can't be as relevant they wanted so i the problem of the nineties is that she's not asking to run anymore she's asking to get out there and sarah and the system has to accommodate since it would rot how does the closed society within which the nuns live affects the kind and quality of work that nuns can do in the world see this close last week to return to earth and poise is the thing that up to walk were recently visiting it be inhibited your church as an organization and especially in the roman eyes

at the heart of turkey has ended and a tendency to close in within itself maintained its laws there is and where they are in these terms there's no way that they can resolve itself as in the terms of hasn't thinking prices hasn't the institutional form in itself to say i train its members to competency and profession it is constrained in terms of that you know working to something in the past now injuries than men specifically are this is what we say has to break down this has to give art has to go all work and learn carry back in that if you're going to keep the inwardness but and enters your questions directly this has been the largest weakest point is is an awareness of the system itself has kept our confidence soon as substitute struggle it's all in a structural terms and norms for professor hartzog is a more violent and where

you no matter how alcohol use a condom equate their sister why is the religious superior the fact that she may not i'm going through high school as jimmy obviously only a ba the fact that she is now over a donor say no doesn't prove that she's a disappearance making nursing none she may be a good project a wonderful humble will be a type of person that doesn't make her company and see as a city or google quickly trained fast moving efficient types a message that rob again how bad is it deals thoughtfully then you have to have chosen more takeovers american values to choose the american values you are going to talk about the three valves that than on the mistake of poverty chastity and obedience was doing what makes you feel that the problem of obedience is the most serious one we open up the problem begins actually in our whole study of

catholics in america and the whole problem that's causing a stir is really the problem of how obedient is obedient and how authoritative his authority and where is the line where the individual it off where is that he seats with i know you had developing i could just have a conversation the other day with that with a catholic intellectual even in our book we question whether or not post turned belong together but let's leave that aside for a moment was describing a friend of his who said that he had decided the idea of going to church on sunday was not for him he was going to get six days a week but he went on to observe the regulation the catheter jihad go to church on sunday you still read it regards itself as a catholic who is an extreme problem of obedience now this kind of a problem seldom occurred in the past in the american church

in a just a matter of you when he didn't bother about in initially the male egos or it doesn't go well he's a politician in italy he goes every sunday but he never got involved in these serious concerns of the regimentation that would be necessary well the story that we're writing i think in the book one of the main stars of breaking out of this oral rigid definition of a beating we're not setting up another one in its place was saying there is the struggle and automatically assume as we say when describing attention the problem people say when you're taking sides and closing reflection on the defensive when cowley what we've set out to do the nuns are getting great example that is an engineer at an extreme example is described the cap the negro kent voted that the intellectual gap and family gathered at school as well as the official lots of the church bishop priest nun cardinal how they are being affected by the american environment an american firm is touching on their

lived most effectively and pointedly in this probably is one question for politicians if you remember when the nuns went to selma alabama they were disobedient they disobeyed the local bishop who said stay up staying your question and we don't want any part of you shouldn't be traditionally a nun would have never gone in where bishops ydstie so and that's a few good salesman the disobedient but who will pay their plane ticket the local bishop so they have a very for example of the problem of means is you see i think this whole question for religious people again across denominational i'm very very new again in terms of the nomination all in terms of me of those structures involved in this way we are in america courtesy of a sizing intellectual value that's a nice clothes never would tend to put them in second place the more of it you think i'm arguing yes i think we tend to

say well tell me why tell me why there may be out there maybe although when john allen is that it work all right but this is this is a bat is particularly wise you and johnny howell were there were savages will be but in the process the real well i get your recovery more and more reflective we want to know why and what and also whether it will be efficient but we wanna know why we want your effectiveness to see ourselves in this position now this again as an intellectual beautifully as part of american values is quite opposite to the traditional form and by an obvious because as it just because i try to do and we don't question this is the child care and relationship with a father husband wife relationship and you're your sense this is coming more more to pass away to be be inefficient and meaningful in american society we are bigger more more self reflective more more responsible at an effective for the right or

wrong that we choose to do this i've got to get real americans better for the major rogers though that the rappers with your tongue tied america well i can exit riots in twenty thirty years is even more than that are fifty couple generations back of that the questions are the words of equating simply waiting religion and his blind obedience ms rosario role models bear uses that was ingrained and for europe and away this is what four american woman cabbies as it was becoming to be more more questions they want the rationale they want it was is a phony like any authority be more more reasonable and if they want to participate and want to say so they want to be part of the decision making but this is what i think is coming for in general and protect and this of course is the whole fame with developing in the book is how this american pressure especially being an american in this new in this environment is romney gets transplanted immigrant church and how in this process in all the ways in which

catholic says individuals exist in real point of all this is that we have staged completely away from theology this is not a book about religion in in the sense of what should we believe were not believe when there's not a book about in the tradition of the new theology this a book about social reality group of people with terrible people what would people really know about what they're allowed to behave and how it really a consequence of that using the best services available to us and so this is what is disturbing is that when you look at the non to take mature front of music look at these elements in her life normally people say we don't mention that you just you know use your route for the cookie cutter and this is the way she is don't analyze just assume that was fine behind those walls and this is what is dismaying to people who resist change and if you want to use the word conservative in that sense i don't mean in the political sense and they'll either of those who are afraid are changing what is here now

are on their own initiative unless you have circumstances change in many ways we often will describe in this in the various aspects of african american is the changes that a forced willy nilly which in a more dangerous changes that are ready for this follows an expert in the parish when he analyzes the parish stretch in america you see changes that have forced on the parish prison producing and desired god's grace because nobody was there saying let's do lessons of the great cities getting big animal fleeing to the suburbs so when it down whenever we love redevelopment area nobody sees it he's coping with a few other things some people across all the nomination and some big as coming in more more is is the search for information about liz and mr durham statistical terms in depth on the

psychological depths of dynamic there is a search for this but the surge is really is just an indication of how much we live we've come to get the facts and figures and hard figures on a national scale for there's a big vacuum here now i was it is also in his nominee if you know as a fashion sense figures on a visit which is there are tables are disgusting amy says it's impossible to have a plan for marijuana were in and inform public opinion about the practical do the concrete experience of learning more about now when you do some of this work her summers reserve sammons was questioned and star break out and what will you do have and face it with other facts of figures you have about the broader culture wars society it's rather stunning what comes out the village until you know is nearing the first facets what could become first a basic apple

does become inform public opinion for public discussion and that fit i'll see how the saloon and human beings are out our all basically reasonably rational and that is intuitive way are because in discussing the the facts the figures ses batteries good as they can be and you are making a person or groups of persons much more actually for much more human but meanwhile you get the sparks to fly allegedly this image was i don't have to compete because they or their there's something wrong here which you cover the submissions that went away this is a child i just expressing a lot of fear that years of fear again and that to me in that assumes a mission on robben island and i think that's why weaknesses the factory don't know and therefore can make good judgments they are fearing water does remain a fear that there might be some off could

we do somewhat better at a specific almost listing of the pressures that are working for reform you speak of things that are bearing down on the church circumstances that are forcing them to change despite its will find the twentieth is that when you take an individual and say he is attacking these an american talking about to a very strong influences and as a matter fact in the tidal wave some second thoughts about the time saving the title of the book will have to carry any us catholicism or american catholics because you talking about to demonstrate looking now at social terms is the great influence of america the americans leave a great imprint of a formal church which is certainly you know an engine is the fact that it's a church composed of immigrants just as america is composed of immigrants but this is a church that it's an immigrant church which is closer to the immigrant experience in america then you have the domination by one particular

nationality groups the irish come in along with the germans became the midwest this is their historic an ethnic development you bring all easily recalled too nationalistic and with a religious important stake and an american shoe as we have the anglo saxon protestant point and and then you had the technology industry and accusation the big city and you have a pot growing and that neither can remain intact so what you have you have a whole group over fifty million people woke up with both pressures which we didn't know which of these infant and the story of the multiple and twenty one at the end to them and their behaviour and to this church didn't want is really the story and also sort of change sarkozy is to ensure that your numbers the population growth was the one general and the question though i think it's because an economic still in their sheer numbers of the

population of these questions these brushes again are bound to break out and eating advisors they're still i'm thinking your dog into a powerful potent school today one of the things is as they every single problem is that sheer matters to many people to fit into what is physically a very limited number of questions the plan too many people in the future of the president to have the number of teachers was a richness opens every alley forcing a reconsideration of what the voices in a sacred act premise which is nearing its churches school which is the chapter which we discuss if it was in the late nineteenth century didn't see even then it didn't seem quite realistic but it didn't seem so incredibly impossible as it is now and the principal is facing reality of what's happening in every race where you put your barbie is that the facts are intruding valleys are untrue and the attempt to sweep them under the rug is only temporarily success

now the sheer numbers and transit workers who tug on the moment poets you most aggressive becoming more like a more more aware more more knowledgeable you're catholic population today is no longer the simple peasant type of european immigrant detainees or luck worst thing he's educating getting more so why would radio his attention it was you know it was a way it to the county school systems of that and really good with good ones the obama get this critical a question as and the reexamination of all institutions saucier population pressures and educational position and a lot of social mobility of catholics there in the suburbs and the fact that this has been said by we'll have raised the religion of american religion and catholics as well as prices views of what this to a large extent and when this

happens you write the lines and then it becomes quite confusing when you try to establish a kind of homage in a new york criminal conformity the standards of that at the church is imposing of distinction from the synagogue was thinking that in the protestant church than people americans are visiting a church in austin it's clear from or you say that the problem of the american nuns part of the whole story of change and conflict within the catholic church and for that matter perhaps the conflict between religious institutions and to mark of modern america but one in particular is going to happen to the man's what are the particular pressures that are working for a form as far as the moms are concerned i would say that the persians working more powerfully for the change in the basic crime same basic primer same basic needs as a recurring socialize and become institutionalized

an american woman now a bet that the female inside the church here is going to be as it is to be in america one of the fastest aging presented at church and state the reason i say that is that for example an automobile advertising the women's opinion prices are and costs are adding more to that the northern male there's a way that women have a way of women have a way of getting in there and fast sometimes rose slightly pompous is the exact revenge and changing thing before employees a law has been changed i'd do something like this is working in favor of them earn this or typical american woman in a way is going into its changing the church organization much more than people realize i think presidents are adamant that greece the question is i don't get to a certain extent any formal changes have to be okayed by rob i

wanted the rules will be relaxed before they are changed if they restarted what they'll be ameliorated in the home port before any formal occasion well by that i think a formal changing from one of the later but that the faculty there before the new york and i didn't know if the roses the changes in movement will recognize was almost already yes and i think each order in each candidate is going to just change depending on who was there was the superior what is oppression from within and how much to do they suffer from dropbox with the fastest thing in the air modernizing religious on a fifty percent drop out an issue that will air more than any theoretical theological conundrum discussions the seminoles have three women within three or four years and they say well we want to stay in business and change of god and the reasons remain the same and that will be a big do you think there's a realization that most of those powers almost panic about the job

not all agree is a very very very anxiety on the pommel the top of us and this is a millisecond to reward winners of almond growers often addressed but yes they are not anywhere near keeping up with the overall numbers of warner keeping up with the growth increases in american population was at the general population this is a lie and just uses this lag is that a color pressure in the sense that the institutional the man's are growing so much greater anymore from a portion of this isn't a way in some people pushing on this as a great beauty of this is the concern now says ray or even the lowdown on set to get out of releasing it we'll defer to say from what you've just been talking about that you you see the american nun as a sort of

spearheaded an end and the changes that i would say is very subtly very effectively yes i think you exaggerate i'd say that they are a good symbol of that indicate in a possibly a litmus test but they still around the periphery what's happened to american cars and they really easy in decay well this obviously for us it's i mean it's easy in the care of the same way that he's indicated because of the wind but what we have friends is found in analyzing calving intellectual captain powers a catholic voter problem with the catholic me go is these are much more substantial much more explicit in terms of a lawyer in palisade see in these two i see this is the problem and this is where the power and the problem the formal roman invasion of this i wasn't another crack that not do much to change that and really oil spills there that our being there in there but the problem that itself changing i

think of the normal unquote of the relevant imagining this is this is still the tightly controlled male patriarchal type of society to change theirs and don't forget we're talking about the monday mr in naming analyzing catholic you find new phrases like the new greed in referring to maine as well as a priest and then you have the very critical reaction of the capital and is now called the emerging land whenever that he's rebuilding his rebellious he certainly difficult man to treat or difficult woman in the traditional way in which the monsignor walked up the street in the us the parallel to the political war bores initially american grew up and in the big city nj says the workforce has gone and monsignor going to have some common dummies or wait on a particular nuns theological basis when he and i already extended everything from water fountains right through it now the nazis even a thermal energy you define the very service it is regarded

as being absolutely which would be semi changes around them around some existing ones so this again this type of things to take advantage of changes within the formal well i think that some of what we will replace the man in the entire book which we which we just finished and about to send off to be copied a criminal machine thomas is a whole study of this kind of change to a group of people some of them were roman collars i thought that some of my nuns some old ballplayers lawyers intellectuals are very few and the girls to go to school and most them off catholic campuses all along the guy in in fuel fuel to go and tap to get to what has happened to these this group of americans with this extra level catholic laminate to live an american catholic a place side by side in the same person or while they have and what we've tried has described the conflict the tensions and also the compromise in the compatibility

and we should note the fact is a lot of compatibility and sacked the rise of the democratic party take one quick function that a lot of compatibility and we just heard in terms of the people who came as immigrants who owns the plant as a socialist work this week as we can yes one final question then do you can take any guesses at estimating the times pilots involved in making these changes well i will i will go over is full on that one that i don't think it's being unduly optimistic pricing given a generation to another generation this generation now has already seen many things they give us this generation one more i doubt whether the at the end of that period and implementing now recognize the roman catholic church and their families will change and diesel market presences day in nineteen sixty five if you know that would jump from fifty five to eighty five or ninety i don't think he recognized that one time i think it is already

tremendous and i get that that twenty years or what's left of this this generation plus another generation you will you will you will be amazed i don't think it's fair to expect that to happen on one or two years or just because as another degree in fact if there was a visit happen just because the ged korea ceo because of some of the formal the way our structured the man i would become suspicious of the region time for the general humans experience to come through and to become manifest that there was something a generation just lower i think the change will be very very very deep very very diffuse and i think very very engaging this bill is back