Jazz Anthology with Father O'Connor; Gil Scott-Heron

[Drums] [Scott-Heron] Yes. Glad to get high and see the slow motion world, just to reach and touch the half notes floating. World spinning, orbit quicker than 9/8th's Dave Brubeck. We come now frantically searching for Thomas Moore. Moore, "Rainbow Villages." [Host]: The voice you’re listening to is our guest today, and, uh, I was going to say, a very articulate guy that we always say these things about him even when he really isn’t. But he's, uh, [Scott-Heron] I’ll prove that! [Host] You’ll prove that, right! [Laughter] [Host] He’s a fine young poet who has just made his first recording, on a label called “Flying Dutchman" [Host]: that Bob Thiel is the producer and owner and all the rest of it. But our poet's name is Gil Scott-Heron and he’s a boy who has had kind of a varied background, still very young and has produced two

books, one of which is a novel and the second is a delightful collection of - that's a nice word too - of black poems, it says. "Small Talk at 125th and Lenox Avenue.” I don't know if you know 125th and Lenox but it's a great corner uh- it's it's just far enough off the main section of 125th street not to have too many theaters and The Apollo. And it's close enough to the East River to kinda look in that direction and it’s - it kinda needs revivification at times. Uh- Bill first of all thanks for coming and I know you're a busy guy. And I won't ask you how old you are. [laughs] [Host]: But I’m going to ask you, where's the name Scott Heron come from? That's a great name. Is there a history to that? [Scott-Heron]: Uh- my mother and father got that together [Host] Was your mother's name Scott and your dad's name Heron? [Scott-Heron]: Right, my mother's maiden name was Scott

and my father's is Jamaican, his last name is Heron and uh- it got sorta squished together because, uh, I don't like long names so I figured if I put a hyphen in between them and connected it, it would all work out. [Host]: What is it with Jamaicans? Is there a different between a Jamaican Black and an American Black? [Guest]: Uh, about twenty five hundred miles. [Host]: Nothing else. That's how I feel. [Host]: Really? [Scott-Heron]: I just came back from Nassau and, um, it was just, you know, like, beautiful black people over there, that’s all, you know. They treated me with the utmost of hospitality; it was beyond what you call - - what is referred to in America as hospitality. Because that seems to me anytime somebody doesn't spit on you or kick you they were being hospitable or civilized, you know, it went beyond that. into my becoming a part of the family sort of and uh, [Host]: Well does your family have relatives there or your dad? [Scott-Heron]: No. I was spending some time with a young painter named Stanley Burnside, who's doing the cover for my new novel which will be out this fall. I was working on the manuscript I was revising it and um, I decided that,

you know, it would be nice to spend time with him so he could familiarize himself with the manuscript. And uh- we could just get used to sort of working with each other because um, I enjoy painting and um, well I learned how to wood carve while I was down there. And I learned several aspects of woodcarving. I'm not accomplished by any means. I just thought it'd be nice to get away from the “Hawk," um When I got back in Philly, I came from eighty degrees to twenty four degrees and about a forty mile-an-hour wind and I started just go right on in to the terminal, buy another ticket and go back. That's the way I felt about it, but I enjoyed myself down there. [Host]: Gil how do you work when you, uh-do you have a pattern of working or are you organized or, you- what do you do, do you sit down at a typewriter and type or do you, uh, [Guest]: No, I write by typewriter I just sit down and work. [Host]: You work ... [Guest]: And then if it's not good I just throw it away and go to bed. [Host]: How about organizing ahead of - where do you

now for instance in the novel, what's the novel gonna be called? [Scott-Heron]: The novel coming out this fall is called “The Nigger Factory" [Host]: And what's it about? [Scott-Heron]: It's about uh, unrest on a Black college campus. [Host]: Now how'd you pick the subject, because of the subject or the kids or the uh, characters that you have or what? [Guest]: Because it's topical and I enjoy dealing with topical things. The vulture is about well, maybe a big cliche, but the other side of drug life and um, I think it's important that people know the other side of things of college campuses and student unrest has been uh commented on by every um, "knowledgeless" person in the world and very few students have gone in to the sort of depths uh, to explain the power maneuverings and et cetera that are important terms of a campus movement and I thought it was just about time that a student reported the other side and fiction his my vehicle, novels and et cetera [Host]: You really feel at home in a fiction world. Well like em-

I'm interested because I've written one novel and I'm in the midst of finishing a second one but I'm curious just for my own information where did you start on "The Nigger Factory”? [Scott-Heron]: Um, where did I start? I started- well I'm into a thing ?literately? that can best be described as immediate reader involvement [Host]: Right [Guest]: So um - like I don't do that forty pages of trees and campuses and you know a national reports and all that kind of thing. Like I put you right in the middle of it. The book opens on the uh- student government association president getting a phone call from members of a militant group who have a list of demands that they want him to present to the president and as you go along, like, you pick up pieces of the background and flashback sort of things, I enjoy flashbacks too.

[Host]: How about as far as novelists, who are the novelists that you've read that kind of have helped or influenced you or whom you look at as kind of ... [Scott-Heron]: Very few um, I don't read a lot of novels. [Host]: You don’t. [Scott-Heron]: I don't read a lot of poetry. [Host]: Do you read? [Scott-Heron]: Read, yeah, uh, comic books [Host]: [laughs] That’s great! [Scott-Heron]: Uh, you know whatever I feel like reading. [Host]:Yeah, I know. [Scott-Heron]: I don't feel that it's compulsory just because i wrote a book that I have to go around with, you know, a lot of lead weights under my arms. [Host]: Right, yeah, carrying that green bag. [Scott-Heron]: Pretending that I'm about to, you know, go into some heavy research because I'm not. Um, I enjoy all sorts of literature but primarily, influences on my writing have been um, musicians, because I've been dealing with music creatively longer than I have with writing. I enjoy Michael Crichton, who wrote the "Andromeda Strain.” [Host]: Right. [Scott-Heron]: I enjoy Chester Himes, right, "Cotton Comes to Harlem.” John Oliver Killens,

who wrote "And Then We Heard the Thunder.” I was on a show yesterday with John Oliver Killens and John A Williams who wrote "The Man Who Cried I Am” [Host]: Oh yes, right. [Guest]: and "The King God Didn't Save." So I mean it's just a lot of influences. Marvel Comics, you know whatever I feel like doing is, I'm at home there. Works out alright. [Host]: Who uh, who kinda got you into this or do you remember when it all started? When was your first, when did you write your first thing, do you remember? [Scott-Heron]: Oh yeah I was in the fifth grade. It must have been about 416 years ago. [Host]: That's right it's real old. [Scott-Heron]: I'm an only child and ... [Host]: Spoiled. [Guest]: Probably. [Scott-Heron]: I’m not objective enough to comment on it. [Host]: Oh, I see, alright, but you acknowledge it. anyway. [Scott-Heron]: I acknowledge its possibilities. And um, it was a rainy day past time and I got assigned to do um something creative in the fifth grade and I did like a four-page mystery story, that I thought was mammoth. And it was a really long story, really detailed, really interesting. And it was

wasn't but uh - but it got me into feeling that I had done something really nice so I continued. [Host]: Where did it - I am always interested like on that, Gil, where does that - - here is a fifth grader who is usually, like, what, eleven or twelve years old right? Or ten. Around ten or eleven. And a little old kid, you know, you'll see him walking down the street and you wouldn't think anything's going on behind the little old head but out comes a detective story. [Scott-Heron]: Right, well, uh, [Host]: Was that the comics? [Scott-Heron]: No, I come from a family of readers um- I have um- well my mother is here in New York along with two sisters and a brother. [Host]: How many are in the family, how many kids?? [Scott-Heron]: Well I'm the only child in the family. [Host]: Oh, that’s right, excuse me, you mean her family. [Scott-Heron]: In her family there are two sisters and a brother and all four of them live in New York. And all four of them do a great deal of reading and my grandmother who i was living in Tennessee with did not have a lot of education but

she did a lot of reading and most of the books that were around my house were Agatha Christie and Earl Stanley Gardner and I never got very far, you know, into them but uh - I, you know, the plot is on the back. [Host]:Right, that’s right. [Scott-Heron]: So every time i needed a plot I just go over and read the back of one and there was my new story. I figured I was going into much less detail so it'd probably end up being a different story anyway. [Host]: How bout movies do you go to movies? [Scott-Heron]: No not anymore. I used to, I used to go to movies every Saturday that was a big thing in Jackson Because until I was 13, I think movies costs fifteen cents or something and, like, they were always horror flicks though. Like "The Return of It,” whatever “it” was. [Host]: "Fu Manchu” or “The Big ..." animals right. Or "They” [Gil]: Right, "They," "Them,""These," "Those," they were all big hits in Jackson. [Host]: But movies don’t mean that much to you anymore. [Gil]: No there's uh- very little reality in movies and uh- I mean- it becomes- it becomes a joke after a while.

You know because I think that - last week on 42nd Street, John Wayne won the Second World War about five different times [Host]: In five different theatres. [Gil]: [Scott-Heron]: That's very unrealistic as far as I'm concerned, and um- I try to um- to build an atmosphere of not necessarily stark, brutal reality in terms of things that I'm writing. But at least a realistic nature. It has to- you know the atmosphere has to be realistic in order for me to create anything meaningful. It has to- you know the atmosphere has to be realistic in order for me to create anything meaningful. So um- I avoid things that bring me down; these are examples of bad art so far as I'm concerned. So I avoid them. [Host]: What brings you up? You mentioned - what would really bring you up right at the moment. If I were to give you something what would bring- what we really-what brings the light in your life? [Scott-Heron]: What inspires me? [Host]: Yeah [Scott-Heron]: Um, a Baldwin or a Steinway, in tune. [Bill]: Piano. Really? Do you play well?

[Scott-Heron]: No, I play often, I don't play well. I'm self taught in terms of piano I've learned the chords since I've been playing with Brian Jackson ... [Host]: This boy from Lincoln that you speak of [Scott-Heron]: Yeah. Right, youngster from uh- from Brooklyn. Originally from Brooklyn. And well, he's taught me the chords and various elementary progressions so that just so that really when he's on flute I can tell him what chords I'm playing because I play a lot of minor sevenths and stuff, simply because I didn't know any better when I wrote the stuff and now that it's in there I won't change. [Host]: Well like for instance on this, on the, uh, recordings, the rhythmic backgrounds and things like this how is this done, how did you record? [Scott-Heron]: Uh, well the recording was done live, um - when I talked to uh- Mr. Thiel, down at Flying Dutchman, I was going in on behalf of my group, the group that I was talking about before, so, a group called Black and Blues, a combination of rhythms and um, jazz

and gospel like a lot elements come into play there. I was going in to talk to him about recording and um- I had a galley with me just as sort of an introduction as to who I was of my poems. So he read 'em and and when I talked to him the next - the following - time, he said “well, you know, I'd like to hear your group. And, um, I'm interested, you know, to a certain degree. But I'm really interested in your poetry, so um- how would you like to do a poetry album?” So it hadn’t really, the idea hadn't really occurred to me and I hadn't given it any thought but when I talked to Eddy Knowles [one of my] good friends in life, um, plays conga, he said well, you know that we’d sit down and see what we could do. So, we took the book apart and looked through it and decided what we could do in terms of an album that would not, uh, that was still not like to do anything to the poem to make it lose its original flavor so we picked out a few of the poems and some songs that I had written and we went on in and recorded. [Host]: Eddie Knowles is on conga, Charlie Saunders is on conga, right? [Scott-Heron]: Right. and I think they would be very offended unless you [pronounced it as] “coonga.” [Host]: I was thinking that when you said that.

Are they all New York kids? [Scott-Heron]: Right. Eddie has a college discovery program at Bronx Community [College] and Charlie is a hard hat - he’s a construction worker. [Host]: Did he wear his hat to the studio? [Scott-Heron]:No, but he didn’t wear much else, as you can see in the picture here! [Host]: Alright, well, let’s listen to the one that we started with. What's this plastic pattern people, tell us? [Scott-Heron]: Um, well, in the introduction to the book of poetry [Host]: Which is Called “Small Talk at 125th and Lenox,” is published by World, go ahead... [Scott-Heron]: Right, it refers to, people who are rooted in a culture not own, and which makes them, sort of sort of more plastic than the ordinary american because they're constantly shifting back and forth between Harlem culture and Times Square culture, from B.B. King to Tom Jones

and what we do is comment on, like the fact that they should remain within their own culture so far as we’re concerned, because because Times Square culture brings on the tears in Black people and because we’ve been crying for so long that the tears no longer need be white. [Host]: Okay, let’s listen Plastic Pattern People, and it features our guest today who is a poet and musician Gil Scott-Heron and the recording is very much available on Flying Dutchman. Gil? [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

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of our guest today, a very likable guy, whose name is Gil Scott-Heron and the poetry is taken from a funny funny funny funny little tiny book that’s kind of long and skinny called "Small Talk at 125th and Lenox, a Collection of Poems by Gil Scott-Heron” and is published by World Publishing and it’s on a recording which is very much available Flying Dutchman produced under the direction of Bob Thiel. And Gil Scott-Heron is a young man of our city here and who is a writer and musician and singer and talker and students and everything else. He’s currently at Lincoln University. Where is Lincoln, outside of Philadelphia, isn’t it? [Scott-Heron]: That’s right, it’s in Oxford Pennsylvania. Now you know about as much as you knew It’s about 45 miles south of Philadelphia. [Host]: South, going towards Chester or ...? [Scott-Heron]: Going towards Chester, right. It’s not very far from Chester. [Host]: How’d you get there? [Scott-Heron]:By Bus. [Laughter] [Host]: I love those people.

[Scott-Heron]: Always do a lot for you, right? I couldn’t resist it. alone and it appeared on leslie his analyses in [Scott-Heron]: I did a paper on Langston Hughes when I was a junior and Langston Hughes was a graduate. I was in high school at Fieldston (Riverdale). Langston Hughes was a Lincoln graduate My best friend, Nathan Nichols’ father, was a minister at Salem at 129th and Seventh, he was a Lincoln graduate and I was having certain discipline problems, not not a great deal, nothing to write home about, but they did. And my mother got very upset, you know, and decided, that I needed to talk to somebody, and and the person I wound up talking to was Reverend Roy Nichols up at Salem, who was a Lincoln graduate, as I said. And, um, I applied there; I applied to Howard

in “cotillion country,”as we call it now and ended up deciding that I would very much rather be at Lincoln than at Howard. [Host]: Did you visit the campuses or go down or ... [Scott-Heron]: No. [Host]: just by vibrations from 90 miles away in [Scott-Heron]: Please appear on such and such a date that i got off the bus with my bags. I didn’t go down to see it; my mother went to see it, she said it was okay. So I went down there. [Host]: Does [unintelligable] know that you’re around? [Scott-Heron]: Yes, I live with her! Right. [Host]:You mean she’s still cooking and that all that sort of stuff for you? [Scott-Heron]: Right. She takes care of me. [Host]: When’s that gonna end? Just as soon as I get enough money to get out of it. I think from her point of view I might just stay around there; I’m kind-of a, I wrote a novel called “The Vulture.” It was very descriptive of my attitude towards my house. [Host]: You mean you like your mother. [Scott-Heron]: I sit around on the ... and wait for somebody to cook, you know? And then I eat, you know? And then, you know, I go back in my room, 'cause, like, I come out for meals. [Host]:Are you depressive around? the house?

[Scott-Heron]: No, I was going to say she slid the food under the door. [Host]:On a paper plate so it wouldn’t waste plates. [Scott-Heron]: No, but, uh... this is turning into Flip Wilson, you know. [Host]: Keep going, go ahead... [Scott-Heron]: I really have learned to appreciate my mother as a person. I would say in the last three years; maybe that should be embarrassing to say that you’re twenty one, twenty two years old and that you just met your mother three years ago. But I made a move on my own three years ago as I quit school and I started working in a cleaner's ... [Host]: You quit where, is this Fieldston? [Scott-Heron]: I quit Lincoln. I was going to into my sophomore year and my average was very, very negligible. It was making no impression at all anybody there, except my mother who was paying for my education at the time. And so I quit school, just to

just trying to get myself together because I wanted to do some writing and I was not particularly infatuated by Euripides. So I quit school - I would suppose a slap in her face in a sense, because she [unintelligible] I didn’t get a degree and et cetera and when I quit, it sort of she was still very anxious to communicate but I still was very uncertain as to whether [unintelligible] moved. And, um, as it happened, I finished the novel and got a contract. attention for their son and i went back to school when i went back with i school but I went back with ... I had a lot of time to think when I wasn't in school and it gave me a lot of time to consider all the things that she had done for me and sacrifices she made and when I went back to my house, there was no longer necessarily a mother son basis; we were friends. And I think this was, like, opening for ...communication has gone down in the house. [Host]: How can you communicate that, Gil, for kids your own age who has ...? have this problem still; is it a question of just sitting it out or waiting it out or [Scott-Heron]: In terms of what? [Host]: You’re a pretty healthy guy, aren’t you? [Scott-Heron]: In terms of what?

Sitting things out? [Host]: Well, I mean, you know your relationships with the key people in your life are fairly open, aren’t they? [Scott-Heron]: Right, well, um, you see, most people are actors. I think they're “shaming” their way through life; they’re not happy in the situations that they’re in, and yet they don’t have the confidence to take the necessary steps. And all it has to do with a lot of times is just being very very honest. And oftentimes that’s painful because it takes along time to break down so many years of lying. But once you get time to decide exactly what the major lies are and how to attack them, first, you get a lot of the hassles out of the way. And once you come clean with yourself, all you can do is ask

people that you’re involved to meet you halfway; if they’re willing to; if they’re man enough, woman enough then everything works out and if they’re not then you find out that these were negative influences on your life anyway. And you move on to something else. [Host]: What does your mother do? [Scott-Heron]: She works for the housing authority. [Host]: Does she? [Scott-Heron]: She’s a government agent. [Host]: She’s a spy!!! Where’s your dad? [Scott-Heron]: Uh, East, South, West, or North of here. [Host]: Whenever that may be, right? Do you ever see him? [Scott-Heron]: No, I never have. [Host]: You never have seen him. [Scott-Heron]: No. [Host]: Does she talk about him? [Scott-Heron]: Occasionally. You know, when the mood...[Host]: Yeah, right. Is there bitterness? [Scott-Heron]: No. [Host]: Does she say what you’re like your father? [Scott-Heron]: She says sometimes I look like him and I’m hot-headed like him and I’m stubborn like him or something but not too much. [Host]: Do you resent him at all? [Scott-Heron]: No. I don’t. I can’t [unintelligible]. [Host]: Right. I mean, but the fact that he’s missing, so to speak, this doesn’t ...? [Scott-Heron]: No. [Host]: Would you marry? [Scott-Heron]: Perhaps. [Host]: Do you want children? [Scott-Heron]: Yes. [Host]: What do you really want to do in life?

[Scott-Heron]: Play some music. I might like to teach, if I could get in the proper position. I’ve done some volunteer work with children at Lenox Hill Hospital and my neighborhood and when I was home more. I went on a walk with a softball teams and basketball teams and et cetera in the neighborhood. I’ve always enjoyed and felt that I could communicate something and that I could, perhaps, be one of the positive examples in the neighborhood because, not because I’m doing anything “literarally” but just because I'm not either in the war or in jail or on dope; I’m none of the three things. that are very obvious in our neighborhood and I think that the children in the neighborhood, the youngsters, need to see some people if it's nothing but, you know, going to work and coming home. [people] who are doing that and not ruining their lives and ruining their families by getting into

or getting in over their heads with other matters. [Host]: Who gives you or where did you get the tenderness for your family? Was that your grandmother or your mother or ...? [Scott-Heron]: That’s my whole family. [Host]: The whole thing. [Scott-Heron]: Really. There’s a lot of controversy; there are people gaps in us, you know, gaps between everybody between everybody, between, you know, even two people who are trying to understand each other very much. And I think artists have a capacity for sensitivity in certain aspects, just by getting so far into themselves; they begin to get into aspects of themselves that they don’t understand and they realize, therefore, that they’re not going to understand things that other people do all the time. And it becomes a thing that’s not really needed as much as people say. within my family home there are there's a lot of communication between [People say:] “Well, the greatest thing I have to give you is my understanding for you.” Hell, understand yourself; we’ll get the rest of that. Within my family, though, there are

communication between, as I said, my mother and her sisters and brother and we have family in Brooklyn and and the people that I’ve been fortunate enough to associate with: Eddie, Brian, David Charlie Saunders, et cetera, all have artist temperaments, which means under certain conditions they’re a bit flaky but way down deep they're concerned about each other. [Host]: Where did you meet them, at Lincoln? [when they were doing in school right and the only at lincolncenter why are you against lincoln in a sense i'm not against it] [Scott-Heron]: Right, I met all of them at Lincoln. [Host]: Why are you against [?] [Scott-Heron]: I’m not against it. [Host]: Well, I mean, unhappy with it. [Scott-Heron]: I’m not unhappy with it. [Host]: What do you feel - you just don’t need it. In certain ways, I’ve outgrown Lincoln. And once somebody is ready for the first grade you don't confine them in kindergarten any longer. I have no bitterness but there are certain things about Lincoln that I couldn't fit into that there are certain things about everything, you know, that people don't fit into. There are two ways of approaching that situation: One is, you can say, well, I don't appreciate certain ... certain restrictions that are being placed on my life under this system. So, consequently, I'm not going to deal with it.

I’m going to avoid it or I’m going to cop out. Or, the other way to approach it is to say that there's certain things that I don't appreciate about the system but I've got to deal with them in order to get to what I enjoy. Then you can deal with it that way. As it happened, I got an opportunity - I have an opportunity - to go to Johns Hopkins and you know writing someannounced next year and no one degree is not a prerequisite for to go to Johns Hopkins and the writing seminars next year. And one degree is not a prerequisite for another one. I suppose that applies primarily to a field like mine, which is writing. [Host]: Right. Due to that, there's certain things at Lincoln that I was going to try and fight out that no longer - that I don’t have to deal with anymore. [I’m] very much more relaxed about the whole financial the knotlast semester and latest outing there were first will see [I’m] very much more relaxed about the whole thing, so that my last semester at Lincoln starting February 1st, will see me working in the art studio and, you know, doing some things that I really enjoy just and getting something for the money that I’m investing in that situation. [Host]: Gil, would you ..

For those of you who are listening and I certainly think you're enjoying, his name is Gil Scott-Heron and he has a new book out, poems called “Small Talk at 125th and Lenox, a very famous corner and he also has an album on Flying Dutchman that Bob Thiel has produced. Seeing as it's to be released; it IS released. It's available in your record shops. directly trump's matter Where you are at the moment and he's a young man from our from our city, originally born in Chicago And the poetry is done to a lot of kind-of nice backgrounds provided by Eddie Knowles and Charlie Saunders and Dave Barnes and this one, we’ll include the introduction, too. Is the introduction on “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,” or is the introduction [unintelligible]? [Scott-Heron]: It’s an introduction to the entire program because we did it live. [Host]: Where did you do it? [Scott-Heron]: A studio downtown at 44th and sixth. [Host]: Capitol, all right. What we’ll do is let the poetry speak for itself and then we’ll come back and ask Gil about it, a little bit. But it’s Introduction ... (To engineer: Have we got that up?) Alright, and the And “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” by Gil Scott-Heron. [Scott-Heron from the recording]: Good Evening. My name is Gil Scott-Heron and my accomplices are, first from left to right, Eddy Knowles,

a drummer for the write any knowles, Eddie Knowles, a drummer for the Denise salute dance group, a drummer for December dances and a percussionist for a group called "Black & Blues”. The brother to my immediate left is Charlie Saunders, of December dance group and a former drummer for Loretta Parker. David Barnes, a singer of "Black & Blues", will be heard later on in the evening. We'd like to do a poem for you, called "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." primarily because it won’t be. [Music begins] [Music] You will not be able to stay home, brother. You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out. You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and Skip out for beer during commercials Because the revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox i n 4 parts without commercial interruptions. The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon Blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat Hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary.

The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be brought to you by the Schaefer Award Theatre and will not star Natalie Wood and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia. The The revolution will not get rid of the nubs. The revolution will not make you look five pounds thinner. Because the revolution will not be televised, Brother. There will be no pictures of you and Willie Mae pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run. Or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance. NBC will not be able predict the winner at 8:32. [some of the poem is missing from the recording] There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down Brothers in the instant replay. There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being Run out of Harlem on a rail. with a brand new process There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy Wilkins strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving For just the proper occasion. Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville Junction will no longer be so Goddamn relevant And women will not care if Dick finally gets down with Jane on Search for Tomorrow, because Black people

Will be in the street looking for a brighter day. The revolution will not be televised. There will be no highlights on the 11 o'clock news And no pictures of hairy armed women Liberationists And Jackie Onassis blowing her nose. The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb Or Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom Jones, Johnny Cash or Englebert Humperdink. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be right back after a message About a white tornado, white lightning, or white people You will not have to worry about a Dove in your Bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl The revolution will not go better with Coke The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath. The revolution will put you in the driver's seat. The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised Will not be televised, will not be televised The revolution will be no re-run brothers The revolution will be live. [Host]: That’s a poem was written by our guest today Gil Scott-Heron from abroad book of poetry called “Small Talk at 125th and Lenox."

and it's published by World. Gil, what you do, build energies for poems or ... I’m just thinking that ... while this was being played we kind-of got into a quick discussion; he was talking about, what was the thing you wrote last night called? we'd go wee wee martin [Scott-Heron]: called “Wigi.” I haven’t gotten it memorized; I like to ... [unintelligible] similar work because I think that people respond more to you as an entertainer when you are just speaking to them, even if it is you know, memorized lines. [Host]: Right, that’s right. [Scott-Heron] rather than having you read. [Host]: You don’t have any barriers in between, right. [Scott-Heron] Well, you know, like, when I was recording, this set back in August, I was reading some of the poems and some of them I had memorized but I try to memorize as many of them as I can, you know? But I don’t go through

any changes. If it’s a long poem, like “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,” from hearing it played back, you know, a certain amount of times, you memorize some of it and then you just have your notes for reference if you slip out a line. [Host]: Ya. Give me, uh, [unintelligible] something for me. [Scott-Heron]: Ohhhh... [Host]:Right like that! Cold! Ya. [Scott-Heron]: A rat done bit my sister Nell began to swell and whitey's on the moon by kevin about the bill's the white is on the moon tan is nabil ben still while white is on the moon you know demands a so my I can’t pay no doctor bills but whitey’s on the moon. Ten years from now, I’ll be paying still while whitey’s on the moon. You know, The Man just upped my rent last night, with whitey on the moon; got no hot water, no toilet, no lights but whitey's on the moon; I wonder why he’s uppin’ me - ‘cause whitey’s on the moon? I’m already givin' him fifty a week and now whitey’s on the moon. Taxes taking my whole damn check; the junkies make me a nervous wreck Price of food is going up; and as if all that crap wasn’t enough, a rat done bit my sister Nell Her face and arms began to swell and whitey’s on the moon. Was all that bread I made last year for whitey on the moon?

How come I ain’t got no money here, hmmm, whitey’s on the moon. You know, I just about had my fill of whitey on the moon. I think I’ll send these doctor bills, airmail special, to whitey on the moon. That’s the poem. [Host]: I like that. Thank you very much. [Scott-Heron]: Thank you. That was, that’s on the album, with the rhythms and I said on the album that the poem was inspired by some white [unintelligible] the moon, so, I like to give credit where credit is due. [Host]: [Huge laughter] [Scott-Heron]: [unintelligible] ... provide me, I’d like them to know about it. [Host]: Have you got any, you know, ... his thirtieth tour mother and are the mother has some favorites in [Host]: Have you got one to your mother? [Scott-Heron]: Yeah, I have written, you know, like, the whole book of peoms, africa kwan out what you're sitting on was dedicated to my mother and my mother has some favorites in there I could pick one out that she really appreciates. I’ve written a poem recently that called “The Artist,” which was dedicated to Black mothers everywhere but this isn’t it. This poem is called “Standoff" and it's a particular favorite of my mother’s.cezanne she stood smoking we're get up a good little It says, “She stood smoldering painted aloysius from the fab and to no job for my jewish friend

mascara editor nicola false teeth at home are rather low cut bait evening dress up edinburgh and i don't guess we did have some high heel shoes red skin coats it the great venues now how are you have bryan silva find that you asked your exuding that alice made mouthwash i am sitting in a bar drinking wine bauer jackets dollars slacks hustling think about rapping black tears to make my shoulders while i went over to stand beside us that the hills and then it all you gotta make its it's still small advantage to grant asked martin she's now we really deserved [Host]: Do you like Black people? [Scott-Heron]: Love ‘em, can’t live without ‘em. Some of my best friends ... [laughter]. [Host]: Why do you get angry at them? [Scott-Heron]: I’m not angry. I think that a lot things that I say referring to Black people might bring across to a certain segment of

my audience the sort of feeling that super black people in 1970 get when they read "Jesse B. Simple," by Langston Hughes, because they read superficially; they don't read in to the depth that often times authors and artists create. You can create poems that are on levels ([Host]: layers) because you realize that everybody that is relating to the poem is not going to have your particular ideas; they’re not gonna come from your background; they’re not going to enjoy [unintelligible] enjoy like anything except a common love perhaps of Black people or love of poetry. And so, what you create is, levels that that that many people many different age groups, et cetera, can relate to. Now when Langston Hughes wrote about Simple who was what people would have to call a barroom philosopher, a lot of people

nowadays were trying to perpetuate this super Black Afro-man image, have trouble dealing with it because it doesn't present them with anything that they can look up to and say, now here's somebody who made it in the system. Here's somebody who didn't make it in the system. This is a sort-of "every man" every Black man every Black man on 125th Street. and every Black man in the world. And the kind of poems that I write relate to situations that everybody can relate to because everybody, I think, has seen phony people in a bar. They've seen the chicks who are put together with masking tape and then guys will are put together with less than that. And they're both to running this con game on each other. Just very interesting and I think very entertaining and funny to comment on it. [Host]: Ya, I agree and i think your point is well taken in the sense that you actually do love the people in a sense even because they have [unintelligible]

in a way; I mean most of us have nothing else than the con games we play on one another in a way. [Scott-Heron]: When I see a situation like that arise, [unintelligible] first [it’s important?] to understand my audience - that I take poems from my frame of reference and that most of the things within my frame of reference fall under a Black category, so that Black people will be able to relate to them and oftentimes, the things that I'm saying, which would ostensibly appear to be negative, from the outside, are very very positive because Black people love humor; they love to laugh. and they love to see each other talked about when they’re in such obviously ridiculous situations. So when I comment about it, I think it exhibits just another form of the love that I have for my people; I have hopes for them in terms of a Black liberation and that's one side of it - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, why I talk about revolution

because it's a thing that is currently all that we're currently about but I also talk about the things that have absolutely nothing to do with either Mao Tse Tung or [unintelligible] And this is a thing that you will see in a [bus?] because some Black people are not concerned about the revolution; [they're concerned about] about about fooling each other in certain situations just like this one I’m pointing out. [Host]: Alright, let's listen ... also does songs and this particular one, this is called “Vulture," named after the book, right? [Scott-Heron]: Right. If they've got the introduction on there, ... [Host (to engineer)]: Have you got the introduction on it, Bill? I think ... He thinks he does. [Scott-Heron]: Well, if he does, it’ll explain itself and if he doesn’t, I’ll explain it. [Host]: Okay, let's listen to this. This is called "The Vulture" and of course, it’s our guest Gil Scott-Heron. [Scott-Heron (from recording)]: This is called “The Vulture" and a lot of people think it’s a poem and after they hear me sing it, they’re sure it’s a poem! But we’re going to take a shot at it anyway. [music] Remember: this is a feel-like thing; do whatever you feel like. If you feel like clapping your hands, you can do that.

Standing in the ruins. Of another black man's life. Or flying through the valley They're separating day and night "I am death" cried the Vulture "For the people of the light" Charon brought his raft And came from the sea that sails on souls the

And saw the scavenger departing Taking warm hearts to the cold. He knew the ghetto was the haven For the meanest creature ever known In a wilderness of heartbreak And a desert of despair Evil's carrion of justice Shrieks a cry of naked terror He's taking babies from their mommas And leaving grief beyond compare And leaving grief beyond compare

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] You see the vulture coming. He's flying circles in your mind Only promised me a battle

Battle for your soul and mine. He taking babies from their mommas And he's leaving And he's leaving Leaving me the Leaving Leaving. [Host]: That’s the song. written by our guest today; his name is Gil Scott-Heron. and he has a a fine little book called “Small Talk At 125th And Lenox" It’s on World and the recording is available, called “A New Black Poet” on Flying Dutchman and we recommend both of them very highly to you because

I’m sure you will enjoy them. Scott-Heron]: "The Vulture” is the poem that introduces the novel called “The Vulture,” and what happened is that, for about six months, I was working on my novel and I was calling it something else - I forget now - I had a lot of different names for it - but I was back on the block, standing on the corner of 17th and Eighth Avenue, as I have a tendency to do sometimes, and I noticed that the street light looks out over the block and just sort-of looks down on you and everything that’s going on and rarely says anything but it gives a vulture-ish appearance. When I went back to school, I sat down at the piano with that image in mind and came up with both that song and the poem and the title for my novel, so it worked out. [Host]: Gil, when you’re standing when you’re standing on the corner at 17th Street and Ninth Avenue, which is, where’s the theatre, there’s a little Spanish theater isn't there?

[Scott-Heron]: That’s on 18th and Eighth. [Host]: That’s right - Ninth is downtown from that. [Scott-Heron]: They had King Kong there a few weeks ago. [Host]: Did they? Did you see it? [Scott-Heron]: No, I’ve seen it before but it was very interesting, you know [laughing] that they would have King Kong, you know? Like, very, very big guy..., very likable character. I wouldn’t tell him that I didn’t like him. [unintelligible] ... that’s where I’m coming from. I didn't like him - his whole thing was beyond my [unintelligible] but he was alright. [Host]: How long have you been on the street down there at Ninth Avenue? [Scott-Heron]: About six years now. I’ve become part of the scenery. [Host]: Yeah, that’s right. [Scott-Heron]: No, what happened was...[Host]: When you see him standing there, just say [unintelligible]... [Scott-Heron]: What happens is that I go to 17th and Ninth any time that I want to play ball; I go to 17th and Ninth and I look down Ninth to see if I see guys going to the 13th Street park or up Ninth to the 23rd Street park and I decide which way I’m gonna go because I like to play with the older guys, actually guys that are coming home from working, et cetera. Since I’ve been resting all day, I feel like I’m ready to take ‘em on.

This is during the summertime. I generally end up down at 13th Street and Eighth Avenue with some of the older ...[Host]: Are you a good athlete? [Scott-Heron]: No. I’m miserable. I used to be, once upon a time, (I make it sound so “antique.”) [Host]: Yeah, right - old. [Scott-Heron]: I’m 21 and I played three years of basketball at Fieldston. [Host]: How tall are you? [Scott-Heron]: Six-two. I played one year of basketball at Lincoln. but I never got to be the kind of ball player that once upon a time I thought I would be. Several things happened to me. One is that I went to Fieldston and I started playing inside, I started playing forward, as opposed guard and I had been primed as a guard because even at six feet, when I was in the public school system, I was short. But when I went to Fieldston and Riverdale, I became a forward until my senior year and then I started playing guard again.

I guess I just didn’t attract the sort-of attention that I would need and then therefore, the help that I would need with college coaching, et cetera, because my first year at Lincoln, I didn’t play and I went back my second year and made the team but I wasn’t the same; I didn’t have my shot, I didn’t have my moves. A lot of things had been lost. [Host]: What is the, uh, has anyone ever written about the poetry of basketball? [Scott-Heron]: The poetry of basketball? I have a poem Funny you should mention. I have a poem about the Knicks. [Host]: Have you? When was it written? Can you recite it? [Scott-Heron]: No, it’s much too long. But it goes into the ballet in the blue of basketball. [Host]: Because, um, do you know Leon Thomas? [Scott-Heron]: Yes. Oh yes, I’m very familiar with his work. [Host]: Yeah, and Leon is a basketball player, too. [Scott-Heron]: Is that right? I didn’t know that. I knew that he was a great singer. [Host]: And he lives up in the Riverton Apartments. and you know, was... [Scott-Heron]: I played ball up there, yeah, 135th and Madison. [Host]: Right. And uh, he you know, he goes over every so often and we had him on a program here and he was talking about the problem of getting accepted, you know, when he first arrived, everybody was a little bit hesitant about - who is this character and where is he from. [Scott-Heron]: Well, I appreciate it.

When I went back out on the court this year, well, I had written the two books and the two books and nobody would block my shots, nobody would guard me too much. I enjoyed the notoriety. [host laughter] I don’t know what Leon’s complaining about. [Host]: Well, he wasn’t so much complaining. He was just... [Scott-Heron]: Everybody wanted to block his shots. [Host]: He was talking about the caliber, number one, the caliber of play. But number two was the the fakes and the moves and all this sort of stuff when you're you hear him really going at it, it gets to be like a dance; it’s a ballet. [Scott-Heron]: Right. [Host]: And the leaner, taller, harder mover and all that sort of stuff is really quite a guy. [Scott-Heron]: Well, in the poem, I referred to Walt Frazier as a ballet boo-ga-loo basketball man and, you know, it takes us through all those “B’s.” I enjoy that [laughter]. [Host]: Well, I hope somebody ... because, uh, it’s a fascinating subject and it's a real subject today, you know, especially amongst the Black community, in the sense that

there’s, you know, . annoyance that there there isn't anybody thatplays like grocery either dave bing or an oscar robertsonand are about to get it namedlangston hughes reading wise all there there isn't anybody that plays like a Willis Reed or a Dave Bing, or an Oscar Robertson or a Lew Alcindor. How about, um, where did you first run into Langston Hughes, reading-wise? [Scott-Heron]: Oh, uh, [unintelligible] at school, when people would assign me to poetry and stuff, a column in The Post that they used to run all the time and my mother’s a great fan of Langston Hughes She had a book, I think “The Best of Simple,” or something, and I got into him and when I went to Lincoln, my teacher at the time, in Negro Literature, was Saunders Redding. [unintelligible] anthologies and commenting and he was just a master. In other words, he would come in and set maybe [?] books on the desk and and speak from the top of his head, you know, it was that kind of thing. He and both of them, both Hughes and Dunbar have affected my life more than anybody else simply because they wrote in the dialect; they wrote phonetically.

and it gave me the confidence to do it because I wanted to do it. A lot of times, if you don't see a precedent and you're 19 years old, as I was at the time, you’re reluctant to set one because you figure, right away, you’re gonna get panned, because you’re you’re nineteen. So, so you don’t want to shake too many people up. But I had been doing it with my poetry and then I found out that it was, it was that I could go into even more of it, because the language and et cetera I feel that sometimes is even more rhythmic and more phonetic than it was before if that’s possible and especially on the corner and in the neighborhoods which is where I was are basing all about work at the time. So I became a phonetic writer.

[Host]: Did you ever hear of any of the songs of Oscar Brown? [Scott-Heron]: Oh, yes. I was asked recently to name what I consider best songwriters and et cetera and because the second album that Brian Jackson and I do for Flying dutchman will be an exhibit of perhaps, eight, nine, or then things that we have written ourselves and and in terms of sensitivity as I songwriter - someone had commented on it, I said, that well, Otis Redding, Jimi Hendrix, Ritchie Havens and Oscar Brown, Jr. were people that I picked up as the most sensitive songwriters, lyricists, et cetera of this day and age and I haven't heard much Billie Holiday's "God Bless the Child,” you know, from any other ages that I really appreciated and found was sensitive enough to, to penetrate in this day and age. And I think those four, Oscar Brown, Jr., specifically, who went to Lincoln for a while. ([Host]: Oh, did he? I didn’t know that.) Right. [Host]: He has one, is it called “Life is Grey,” or “Life is Turning Grey,” or something like that?

[Scott-Heron]: “Life is Turning Grey, Mr. Kicks" "Signifyin’ Monkey,” he is just - hundreds of songs I think he said on an interview for Jet recently on his program “Joy,” which he did with Sabuka and he said that he had gone to Lincoln and that’s where he had gotten into writing - at Lincoln University [Host]: And I know you also use Lyrics of Dunbar and who's the feminist poet? [Scott-Heron]: Phillis Wheatley? How far back are we going? [Host]: No, it would be Gwendolyn Brooks. But a lot of the ... and warm things lyrical things that are very sensitive and very evocative in the way of bringing all kinds of ... [Scott-Heron]: Well, she’s masterful. [Host]: Look it, Gil, the time is finished and I really enjoyed it and I really want to thank you and thank Flying Dutchman and just a wish: you know, when you're back in town, can we have you come come back again?

[Scott-Heron]: Oh, sure, sure! [Host]: Whether it be “Small Talk At 125th And Lenox” or or “Small Talk at 120th and Claremont," right But anyway, he’s got a book, this man and it's called “Small Talk At 125th And Lenox.” He also has a record called, same thing; it’s poems from the book, it’s a new black poet Gil Scott-Heron and the last name has got a little dash right in the middle I was going to say an ‘umlaut’ but its Scott-Heron and it's poetry and music and we certainly wish him the best and we’ll close with just the few minutes that we have with a little bit of what is called “Enough,” right? [Scott-Heron]: Right. Had a poem here somewhere called "Enough" That I'd like to do Because every once in a while A brother gets shot somewhere for no reason.

A brother gets his head kicked in, for no reason. And you wonder just exactly what in the hell is enough And that's what this poem is about [music] [music] It was not enough that we were bought en brought to this home of the slaves Locked in the bowels of a floating shit-house. Watching those we loved eaten away by plague and insanity Flesh falling like strips of bark from a termite-infested tree Bones rotting, turning first to brittle ivory, then to rosin. That was not enough. It was not enough that we were chained by leg-irons Black on black in black with a pit stained wall, Forced to heed nature's call Through and inside the tattered of rags that stringed our privates. And evidently, years of slavery did not appease your need to be superior to something Like a crazed lion hung up on being the king of his corner of the cage Backs bend under the weight of being everything and having nothing Mines too, like boomerangs curving back into themselves

Kicked and carved by the face-straining smiles that saved my life That was not enough Somehow I cannot believe that it will be enough For me to melt with you and integrate, without the thoughts of rape and murder I cannot conceive of on peace on earth until I have given you a piece of lead or pipe To end your worthless, motherfucking existence Imagine your nightmares of my sneaking into a veiled or satin bedroom And attacking your daughter, wife and mother, Ripping open their bowels sexually like a wishbone Imagine that and magnify it a million times When you realize that the blinders have been stripped from my eyes And I realize that slavery was no smiling, happy fizzies party Your ancestors raped my foremothers and I will not forget I will not forget at Yale or Harvard or Princeton or in Hell, because you are on my mind I see you every time my woman walks down the street with her ass on her shoulders

I think of you morning, noon and night And I wonder just exactly what in hell is enough Every time I see a rope or gun I remember And to top it all off, you ain't through yet Over 50 you have killed in Mississippi since 1963 That doesn't even begin to begin all of those you have maimed, hit and run over, blinded, poisoned, starved or castrated I hope you do not think that a vote for John Kennedy took you off my shit list Because in the street there will only be black and white There will be

no Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, Moderates or any of the rest of that shit you have used To make me forget to hate There ain't no enough, there ain't no surrender There is only plot and plan, move and groove, kill