Theologs' Dialogue; 4; Social Action

I believe in one of the father of my team. They were a bad man. And of all things visible and invisible. And in one world. Jesus Christ. Theological students of Mary Null Seminary near Austin, New York, and the Union Theological Seminary in New York City. Discuss areas of common concern for Roman Catholics and Protestants. In the fourth of this series, they discuss social action. Be the one substance. Be the other. I do love things for them. In that substance which they mutually confess in the Nicene Creed. Protestants and Roman Catholics are one.

Even while they are divided in their understanding of how that substance is made flesh and is incarnate in the church. Which is the body of Christ. While great ecclesiastical bodies, such as Vatican II and the World Council of Churches, strive on the highest administrative level toward a visible unity, there is dialogue and fellowship between Roman Catholics and Protestants occurring elsewhere. On Theolog's dialogue, we invite you to eavesdrop as it were, on one place where this exchange is going on. Between theological students of Mary Null Seminary and the Union Theological Seminary. Mary Null, located near Austin, New York, is a seminary for the training of Roman Catholic missionary priests. The Union Theological Seminary in New York City is a non-denominational school training pastors and theological scholars. The informal discussions on these programs are but a part of a continuing fellowship and dialogue

between students of these two theological schools. Participating in this afternoon's discussion from Mary Null are Bill McIntyre, Tom Morris and Peter Berry. Union students participating are John Rains, John Peterson and Tom Leatherwood. And the life of the world to come, Amen. I'd like to raise a question here that has often been raised to me and it's just this.

So oftentimes I'm approached by Lehman and people outside the church saying, one on earth there's a church have to do with society anyway. The church has to do with religion. That's what the church is supposed to do. It's supposed to the minister is supposed to help this Lehman who is under him and his personal relationship between this individual soul and God. Prayer, sermons, personal life, maybe into family life, something like this, but not society. What does the church have to do with society with politics? For many people it seems to me there's a great division between the religion and the society. Society has to do with politics and that's dirty. Religion has to do with souls and goodness and faith and having pious emotions and that's good and the two don't mix. I'm just wondering what some of your attitudes towards this might be. I think religion to me has a twofold dimension both eschatological in terms of the last things

and an incinational concern with this world. And the two things always have to be kept in careful balance. We understand that we hear in the Bible God sold off the world that he gave us only we got in sun that man might live. And this to me it means that the world is a very important thing. I think that a Christian should be able to say quite truly that nothing human is far from him. This should be a Christian humanism as well as a secular humanism. It's very important so that the Christian has to be intimately involved in all human concerns as well as with the last things. But Bill when you say concern with the last things I think the point that John was making is that even in the immediate things that the concern of the church is being nice to your neighbor to the person next door and having the right feelings, this kind of thing, which is immediate and incarnational as you say, but how do you relate this to involvement in political and social problems and social responsibility in a greater scale? Tom, this is really my question.

You see for many people at least in my own Methodist tradition, religion is about love. You're supposed to love each other. Good neighborliness. Good fellowship. Methodists have great fellowship all the time. But politics, that's power. That's evil. That's self-interest. And what does love have to do with power? What does love have to do with all the things that a politician has to do in a way of manipulating people and so on? That's a world of evil. The world of religion and Sunday and 11 to 12 and children and Sunday school classes and so on. That's something sacred and kept apart very carefully. And that's all the more reason why the person who claims to be a believer should be concerned with the social order. Because these social structures influence persons, influence people who have souls and they can be influenced towards salvation or away from it. The social structures that they are involved in that are constantly influencing them daily, either helping them or hindering them to respond to the creative call of Christ. And because of this, every Christian has a responsibility as a person who is social as well as individual.

There's a twofold orientation. He's an individual who is related to God as his ultimate end. But he's also a person who is intimately related with fellow human beings. And he has obligations towards those human beings to help them attain the same end that he is attaining. He works towards this end with other people. So he and his church have responsibilities to the whole society. Right. Taking up what Tom said, the fact that Christ became man, in the Catholic church, which told that the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity became man, and took on all that that means in an incarnational sense that Bill mentioned, so that it means not just the, are we concerned with the soul of man in the Greek sense, Aristotelian platonic sense, the soul as opposed to the body. But we're concerned with the whole man. I know in the Catholic tradition, the emphasis in some spirituality in past ages has been on the salvation of the soul.

And almost as opposed to the body, everything of the body was evil. And you had the monks going into the desert to try to free themselves from the shackles of the body to save their souls. But now that we know the soul of the body is good, the body is a good thing, and therefore we're interested in what the whole man and his bodily needs, too. So that's why we're interested in social activity. Let me press that a little bit, Peter. Again, my own Protestant background. So oftentimes, we're interested in the body, but we're interested in the body at its personal level. That is, we're interested in sexual morality. We're interested in as Methodist in not having a person drink and not having a person smoke and not playing cards and so on. It's this personal morality that the body enters in there. Yeah, sure, because we're whole, but not the social morality. Now that's something different.

John, you had something to say on that. I think that for Protestants, maybe there's a peculiar problem, not so much an emphasis on spirituality as over against worldliness that keeps many Protestants from identifying and taking part in social action. I think an important part is the concept of the church to an ordinary Protestant. I think he's caught between two things. I still think that many Protestants have an implicit anti-catholic bias, and they do not want their churches to take a stand because this would be an effect forcing them to take a stand. They don't want the churches controlling them. The concept of the individual is very important. They don't want their individual rights overrun by the church. It's important that the church not force them to take a stand on issues. Yeah, and this is conceived. My individual right is particularly my business and how I run my business and how I vote. Those are my individual rights and minister don't bother to tell me about those. Is this what you mean?

Right. This is one part of the problem. I think the other horror and the lemma has to do with an idea of the church. I think for many Protestants, they feel that they are supporting the church. That the church exists only in so far as they can really en route it in society. That without them, the church falls to pieces. They don't have a concept of the church's universal, with its foundation being Jesus Christ and being Christ of God in Christ. Calling men to himself throughout the centuries. They see rather that they are the ones that are calling the church into being rather than God. For this reason, the church can't get its hands dirty because it will get a bad name and maybe be forced out of society. You have to protect the church. You've gotten very religious there and that's very appropriate because this is what this talk is all about. But I'm sure that many people would wonder, what does he mean by this church universal? You've got all sorts of people in this world who have to make ethical decisions and they don't consider themselves to be Christians or Jews.

They can just consider themselves to be good humanists or perhaps not even very good humanists. A lot of people have no kind of basic concept about how the universe is put together, how it all came about. This is all left with a great question mark. Those really are things beyond us. I think a lot of people feel. But yet they want to be responsible in a society. Now, what does a Christian bring? You've indicated he brings some particular insights, supposedly, in this area when he begins to make his ethical decisions. What does he bring? What do you mean by this universal church? And how does this relate itself to our practical ethical decisions at the everyday level? That's a big question. I tend to be skeptical about perhaps for many Protestants whether they have this greater, this insight into the nature of the faith which impels them to social action. I think quite often just their own problems, the things that hurt them, the things that they will take action upon, the church universal. I think it's important that maybe you might spend some time taking a look at the role of the church in history, the place of the church in our world as a whole.

Well, I was thinking about the question which Pete raised about the social structure and the church is part of the social structure and an understanding of the individual as you're talking about related to all this. I think we have to understand that the individuals as human beings are responsible for the social structure in which they live. And therefore we have a responsibility, as Tom was saying, to say something about the structures in which man makes his decisions. And as Christians and members of this community we have to be responsible for changing in any way we can through our faith the structures in which man makes decisions, political, social and personal ethical decisions altogether. Yes, but this doesn't help you too much, does it Tom? I mean what the problem is that you've got just to say within Christians you've got all sorts of things being said. You've got Christians to say segregation is right there in the Bible and that's the way God meant it to be.

And all we're doing is being good Christians and being segregation. Now you've got others who say segregation is absolutely against what the Bible was trying to get out. And then they get this to big, big debate. You know, they're both being Christian, they're both being religious and they both disagree. Now there's a bigger problem there and how do you get at it? There's something more at work here. How do you work out the real principles that will base our involvement in the social order? Where do we get these principles from? I think Catholics, I think everyone will realize immediately that of course the papacy is always at least modern times that exercise a very strong teaching authority in this area. The modern Pope's Leo XIII and Pius XI and of course Pope John and now Pope Paul have constantly brought home to Catholics as well as all Christians in general are social obligations. And I think it's interesting to note that in modern times with the influence of modern social structures and industrialism on man that Catholics just as easily fall into the areas of individualism and constantly had to be recalled to the meaning of being a Christian, a man in society ordered to God but at the same time a man intimately related to his fellow human beings and a man with a mission towards his fellow man.

A man who has a mission to change whatever it is that is preventing man from reaching his end to work towards this in a really positive way. Now don't you think that a lot of people today say when they hear this and whether they hear it from a Roman Catholic or a Protestant, they say that's very nice, this guy is very religious, he's very sentimental. I mean it's easy if you're a minister or a priest to say these things because you're not out there in business where it's boy it's scramble and it's stab in the back and the first one gets it and he's the only one that gets it. And that's what life is really like, you see. This business about brotherly love is, you know, it's just naïve. No, it's easy to love your brother if you're a minister because they pay you to do that.

You know, that's what you get yourself if we're loving your congregation. If you're a priest, they pay the Roman Catholic Church to, this is an area of community of love. Yes, this is what's nice. You know, you preserve this area of this little community of love over here in the side of life. But the whole rest of life, boy, that's what you can as fast as you can because if you don't, somebody else is going to. Now, how do you deal with this? Well, it seems to me that these people who talk this way fundamentally misunderstand Christianity. A Christian that seems to me has to expect to be a sign of contradiction in the world after all Christ was crucified. And there's a very strong statements in the Bible, for example, in 1 John, who says he loves God and does not love his neighbor as a liar. The words are very, very strong there. And our obligations toward our neighbor, a Christian community is not just a middle class group which agrees with each other on all kinds of social and political problems. It's a group which sees in every human being a, well, she's an ever human being Christ in that sense. I recall that Dorothy Day of the Catholic Worker here in New York, I remarked that you love God no more than you love the person. You love the least. Now, this is a very strong statement.

But if you really fully think out the implications of this very strong love, which is demanded by every Christian toward every other human being, your obligations toward all mankind become very pressing indeed. I think we're again back to the question though. What does it mean to say you love your neighbor? Is it simply love to the person next door? Is it simply these pious emotions that we were talking about in the individual level? And what we're talking about today is the general area of the social responsibility outside of the personal life and the call which we find in the general social structure, the political structure and this kind of thing. I'd like to have us talk about this. Doesn't this come from the nature of the person at the time in the sense that I could say it in a Pope John's Parchmentarist that the basis of the social order, the building block, the starting point and the end is the human person. And we start with the human person, we examine what is his nature? What is he like? What does he hear for? And we see that he's an individual true, but he's also a social being, a man who makes his way to God in society. He's not isolated.

And I think this is one of the problems in modern society that we have allowed economics as an extreme capitalistic bend to take something away that is part of our intimate beliefs as Catholics. We have, let's say, profit become the core of economy so that making a profit is the central concept, say an extreme capitalism, not in the capitalism that has evolved to the present day, but profit has become the key in the economy rather than the person. Whereas the starting point in economics and business and anything is the human person, the whole of economy, the whole of society is working towards the betterment of the person in society and as he relates to the people he's living with. And when this is prostituted for profit from me or money making, well this is a real betrayal of Christian principles.

That's good time. And following along with what you said and Tom or whatever, the church should be interested in not only the man's spiritual life and love your neighbor, but also because as Tom has pointed out the whole person, a man is a political animal, he's a social animal. And therefore the church has something to say since it is concerned with the whole man on the political order and on the social order on race relations and civil rights. I wonder whether something else is involved of both Pete and Tom, you're both brought up one time or another, the sort of a must. The church has to be involved here. The church is a demand for the church to be involved with this, but I wonder whether the source of our involvement in social concerns as Christians is not so much a demand that's laid upon us, law or a must, but something else. But somehow as Christians, our life is changed, it is transformed. There's more than just a must serve an inward compulsion that is there as well, a spontaneous concern rather than sort of a law which sort of hangs above us.

I think that that's good, John, that reminds me of a Kant's categorical imperative or something like that, that you must do something right. We Catholics can go along with, I mean, not necessarily go along with to agree, but we believe this too that in addition to the obligations in Christian life, the commandments say, there's also the life of a Christian. The sacrament of life that he Christ came said, I have come that they may have life and have it more abundantly so that a Christian has a new life, the life of grace we say in the Catholic church so that we would wish all to so that so this is another angle that we could. I think there is something there that I think this, John, when you brought up before about say, how does the Christian approach social the social order differently from say the non-believer?

I think in a way we can say that the Christian and the humanists, the non-believing humanists could approach the social order in a very similar way in the sense that we both look at the nature of man. We say in the Catholic theology that grace builds on nature. When Christ came to redeem man, he didn't change man. He didn't do any violence to the nature of man as man always was before Christ came to save man. That Christ came and redeem man and in doing this he elevated man but he didn't destroy anything that was there to start with. He didn't change human nature so that the humanist looks at man and investigates man's nature and to the degree that he sees man as a social being as well as an individual. A man who's really, he's not operating in two levels but there's a two-fold reality. He's not isolated and he's not purely a collective thing. There are both elements. He's limited by space and time, he's limited in all sorts of ways. He's really individual so that one man is in another but he's also intimately social just from his origins in the family we can see this.

So I think when the Christian and especially the Catholic as we could see, saying Pope John's, Parchmentaris, he approaches man and he looks at his nature and he sees what does this nature demand in regard to his rights and his duties and then the Christian adds something to this. He believes that man and all men are a children of God and he believes that Christ came to save all men and lead all men to the Father and there's something added I think especially the big thing is added as Christian charity. We can go into the social order and hold in common with non-believers, principles of justice and what's right and what's wrong and what are man's rights and their duties and responsibilities. For the Christian can add something that really gives meaning and vitality to this when he adds Christian charity, the charity that makes the working out of social tensions and social pressures, something really attainable in the practical order by having a real Christian love, a real yearning for fellowship with the people who disagree with us, with the people who are working against the real development of man and society.

I think this alone, this one thing of charity will make a really big difference. Well, I think that what we're saying, and I guess this is what I was asking a while back, that ethics does depend upon a certain view of life which is finally acceptable upon faith. I would say that Christ came just to fulfill the nature of man. He didn't destroy the nature of man. Well, I would accept this in one way, but you see when I look at man and I say, now what's this guy's nature out there? Maybe the first thing that I'm impressed with is his nature is he wants to be better than me. He wants to have more money than I do, he wants to have a bigger card than I do.

He wants to have a better looking woman than I do, and if my wife is better looking than his, he may want my wife. So that when I look at this nature of man thing, I don't see charity right away. I sometimes see quite the hatred, competition, get what you can. So that when you say that Christ came to fulfill the nature of man, this is in the nature of this statement already is the statement of kind of faith. Basically what you said, the faith that the real nature of man is that he needs to love and needs to be loved, and he needs to be in a community of love. Yes, life is full of contradiction of this. We know there's evil. We know there's evil not only out there in life, but in me too, in every one of us here. But that what's basically true about us is we need to be able to give love, and we need to be able to receive love, and we need to be able to be in a community of love. And this community of love needs to be able to fund a foundation of meaning, and not meaninglessness.

Now, if we accept that, then we see something of the presuppositions of our Christian approach, and perhaps we see something of our presuppositions of how we go into practical decisions. But now so far, we've been very kindly to each other, and we've seen that we should agree on all things, because we have this vision of love. But let me just pick up one concrete issue, that maybe we may not perfectly agree on. I'm thinking about aid to education, particularly a pro-pro-kiel education. Now, we know that a lot of Protestants say, no, this is where separation in church and state is absolute. There's to be no money given to pro-kiel school education. That is a private system of education. Those children can be sent to a public school. Their parents have that option, but they don't choose to choose that option. They choose the option of sending their parents their kids to pro-kiel schools. Therefore, just as if I chose to send my kid to some private school someplace, I'd expect to pay extra tuition.

And they should too. Now, this is the attitude of many Protestants. What's the attitude of Catholics on this? Maybe I could ask anyone of you. Well, I don't, you know, we hash all the arguments that have made. We figure that as children should be educated, and we believe that the church has an important role in their education, we pay taxes. And we believe that we should be able to share and the taxes that are used for educational purposes. However, I think that this is something to which I think Catholics can be quite pragmatic. You find Catholics, for example, who oppose all federal aid to education on the basis that it's an incursion of government into life in a bad sense. On the other hand, you find Catholics who support it fully, whether without giving special aid to pro-kiel schools. I think that in this area, it seems to me that there's some greater meeting of minds than there was a couple of years ago. For example, in many parts of the country now, they're instituting the shared time program under which Catholic children take part of their school training in Catholic schools and another part of their school training in the pro-kiel schools. We have a real dilemma here. We believe that Catholic children should be given a thorough church oriented or education. It's practically impossible for us to support this for all Catholic children throughout the country.

If we can, through normal legislative methods, convince enough people to give us aid to pro-kiel schools in the form of loans or grants through a shared time system, I, for one, think we should do that. But it's up to the will of the majority. I would not adopt any dogmatic view that one thing was right and one thing was wrong. Basically, it seems to me that the Constitution means what we, the people, say it means, and we should not... This is my own constitutional standpoint. We should not say that so-and-so thought had meant this in 1790. I should say that it means what the Supreme Court says it means at the present time. And if we, the people, do not like what the Supreme Court says it means at the present time, or we can work for an amendment to the Constitution. But the Constitution, in this sense, is not a holy document that should never be changed. In other words, the country is a lot different than it was back in 1776 when you had a heck of a lot of Protestants and maybe just a few Catholics. And a few other minority groups now, you have a lot of Catholics and you have quite a few Protestants and probably the vast majority of the people are nominally something. The argument is not very much of anything.

The argument is often made that before the 20th century, the public school system in the United States was primarily Protestant institution, which Bible readings were given. And one of the reasons many of the Catholic bishops felt so strongly about the establishment of a separate parochial school system, and a separate Catholic college system in the 1850s and the 1860s, was that the existing institutions were Protestant theologically oriented public or private. And they felt if the faith was to be preserved among a immigrant and poor minority in this country, it was necessary to set up separate Catholic institutions. And this policy was followed for many many years and has given us the present situation. It was Catholics in the first place who perhaps got out many of the religious aspects of the schools. They did not want the King James Bible rather than the school. So in fact, we perhaps are responsible in part for the increasing secularization of the American public school. But we find this, it's present secularized state, an unhappy one, as far as the education of our children goes.

And we believe that they should be given more than as possible now in the present public school system. I think there are two practical realities that should enter into our discussion and I think affect this issue. One is that it's my understanding that at present, there aren't enough funds for the Catholic parochial system to really continue because of the large numbers of attending these schools or that will be attending them. And that secondly, on the other hand, there's also not enough, it's going to create a great problem if the parochial system should close down because there aren't enough public schools to take the overflow. I think both of these practical realities are perhaps working, moving, pushing us toward some solution of this rather than just fighting this back and forth. I was given, as a young person growing up in the Midwest, a rather stereotyped view of what parochial education was really all about.

And I would like this stereotyped view being that I had some Catholic friends who went off to their parochial school. And this was a very mysterious thing over the very un-American in many ways that was all related to the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope. And they were going to be obedient to the Pope and I was going to be obedient to the President. And so this was somehow a subversive institution. This was the view, the stereotype I was given. And as I've grown older, I've hope I've gotten beyond some of the stereotypes. But I think it would be valuable for all of us to hear how does a Roman Catholic, as he views prokial school education, relate the teachings of the church in religious matters. To, how can I say, obedience to the state, obedience to the particular laws of the state, to being a patriotic American, let's say. Now, I will be willing to admit, and perhaps you'll want to ask back about what Protestants, what's this patriotism for Protestants, too?

I mean, don't Protestants have a second word about just being a good American? I mean, is that all there's supposed to be is Protestants, granted. But is my stereotype of this institution that was kind of somehow subversive and tied up with the Pope? Is this wrong, as I think it is? But I would like you to explain to me and all of us how you think it is wrong. That's interesting because some sociologists claim that one of the problems with Catholics in the United States today is that they've become too much good citizens. They've wanted to identify too much with their Protestant predecessors and entering into the mainstream of American life, and that we're almost forgetting what it means to be a Christian giving witness in the social order that we have something to contribute positively to the political realm in the United States. But it's hard to really get into this without going back to the role of government in regard to the human person getting back to what I say is that the really core of any discussion of political issues, that the person as an individual is subordinate to the community in the sense that the community can demand things of the individual on behalf of the common good of everyone in the community.

So in a very real sense, the person is subordinate to the community, and the government, which truly represents the community, the voters, this government can make just demands upon the members of that community to make certain sacrifices for the common well-being of all the members of the community. I think this is the only way you could justify something like the graduated income tax, whereas the person, again, is not only an individual. He's someone who's ordered outside of this community. He has goals beyond it. He has supernatural goals. He's a child of God. He's someone who has been called by Christ to the Father. He's been given the power by Christ. He's been given the gift of faith to go to the Father so that there's something beyond this earthly society. There's a city of man, but there's also a city of God who's seen a gust and that points out. So that in certain areas, the Christian has the responsibility of working against an unjust law or an unjust administration or anything like that.

That's why you can have really Christian revolutions. You can have basically sound Christian revolutions. You can have civil disobedience of unjust laws. And the Catholic Church teaches that in certain areas when law, well in every area, if the law is unjust, there's no obligation to obey it. An unjust law is not a law because law, by definition, is an enactment of the legislator on behalf of the common good. It's something that concerns the members of that community and is for their common betterment. And if that law works against, say, the real good of that community, suppose it works towards a real injustice, like, say, theoretically, the annihilation of innocent people as in Germany, during the Nazi regime, these laws are basically unjust and they can't be obeyed. The Christian is obligated not to obey them. I agree with you on that, but it seems to me that your basis for saying this seems a little bit shaky. Who was to determine whether a law is unjust and is not for the basic good?

If the representatives of the community have passed this law, supposedly this represents the views of the community and you've just said the individual has to be subordinated to the community. Now, this being so, perhaps the unjust part of it will be just toward a minority and they have to give up some of their rights or some of their good for the benefit of the whole community, which may be represented by this law. This sounds a little bit like the individualism that Protestants talk about so much. I wonder if we can relate this question to the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in a sense. What about the laws in a different sense, certainly, but what about the papal decisions and the responsibility of the individual Catholic within this? Does he have the right to have a different point of view than his superiors might tell him to have?

This is a parallel to the state in the church. I think it isn't exactly a parallel because in the modern state, as we see it, we have a democratic structure. And I think basically religion is not democratic, as we all agree. I think God is sovereign. And man, the meaning of worship is humble, loving submission before God our Father and our willingness to give ourselves completely to God and to do His will. And by this response to His love, we attain union with God in this life and eventually in heaven. Because this is a one way thing. It's almost a monarchy set up. God, we can't contradict God. Whereas in society, man is master of the social order. We work things out in a democratic way. Every man's opinion is valued on his own weight and everything.

Nothing is an exact parallel between the two. But trying to get back to John's disagreement. At seven in the Catholic church, we do have guidance from the papacy, from papal enactments, from the past or letters of the hierarchy. And I think in a way, it's easier for a Catholic to form his conscience. If a man isn't really interested enough to go into the nature of political realities, social realities, and really work out for himself, the meaning of, say, particular laws, particular demands upon him and concrete situations, at least in a way he has some higher authority that has already spoken out very openly on certain issues. So in many areas, as for instance, in segregation, the Catholic has really no, he can't disagree. Suppose an individual Catholic sense that in the law of the community, as a community, some demonic structures and some forces needed to be overcome by a Christian law of love, how would he, from this conviction, respond to this community to the political and social community in which he lives, if there were no decision from his superiors or even if his superiors in some way disagreed with his decision.

Which he makes from a sense of the community of love, which transcends the social, political, temporal community of the particular society in which he lives. If he senses that out of his community of love in Christ, that he is called to do something to counteract some of these structures within the society, can he respond freely out of his sense of commitment in the community of love, to do something about these structures, if his superiors say something against him or do not support him or something like this. This is a question I'm asking. I think there is a great area of freedom within the church for our personal initiatives of all kinds. Increasingly now in the present century, as we're coming to a full realization, for example, the role of the lady of the church,

or the place of freedom of speech in the church, of the collegiality, the bishops, all these new concepts, we're getting away, we're getting into an incarnational approach to theology. All these things, I think, make us much more respectful of the integrity and the importance of humans, individual persons, individual conscience, much more inclined to listen to the individual, to allow him to press his point, always though, with the idea that at some point the church, which represents Christ here on earth, in our view, has the right to repress an era which is destroying, which is harmful to the body of the church. I was wondering, it seems to me that Protestants and Catholics in some strange way are moving towards each other here. Now as a Protestant, as I grew up, I began to realize that in some ways it was the parochial community, it was the local church that was most likely to be unjust, most likely to be narrow in its point of view.

It would be most bound up with the community of which it was a part, I'm thinking, for instance, of segregation. I'm thinking of the attitude the church took, Protestant church in general took with a certain significant exceptions, but the general attitude taken during the novel 30s with the development of the labor unions. This whole business of the real center of morality and of moral decision is in the individual, and he has to stand against the corporate in Before God and so on. Now that's a very suspicious thing, seems to me. He's much more likely to be particularly influenced by his own background, he may be middle class. He probably is, if he's a Protestant. He may be a southerner, and he's most likely to be influenced very much by being a southerner and by being middle class and by being a member of the golf clubs rather than the bowling alleys and so on.

So what the Protestant church in the face of this kind of rugged individualism of its ethic and the background, seems to me, we have been moving from this more towards the realization of the importance, for instance, of the corporate church, the ecumenical movement. In some ways, we've got to listen to what the church in general has to say. We, that is, as little individual church out in some corner someplace, we have to listen to what the whole church says, because we know that we are bound up in the structures of our own little community. We know that we are more impressed with our justice than with justice, capital J. We know that we are more influenced by our own interests than the common interests. Now this is a classical Christian insight in some ways, the recognition that we are sinners, all of us, and the humility before this, and we are able to recognize this because we're forgiven sinners, finally, all of us, to the end of the life, that's all we are. So given the freedom to say this, yes, I am a sinner, and yes, I am self-centered, and yes, I am going to be more influenced by what's immediate to me, my family, my friends, my community, then the demands of the whole community of the national community, the community of mankind.

Therefore, since it seems to me, the Protestants have been moving more towards an ecumenical movement, more towards just take a look what the national council now means. The national council in some ways speaks as for the whole church in this country over against a lot of parochial churches, you see, and I think in many matters, in race again, speaks with much greater justice, much greater wisdom. Or the whole ecumenical movement. We've got to listen to what the church in India has to say to us about, let's say, 4 and 8, or about the questions of a nuclear war and so on. We've got to listen to these because we're Americans, and we're going to have an American point of view. But God is not an American, you see? And thank God in many ways that He's not an American. Thank God He's not also Russian, and thank God He's not an Indian. Thank God He's no particular nationality. But now, for the first time, it seems to me in the last few years, we Protestants are beginning to have to listen to the whole church, and of the voice of God speaking from the whole church. On the other hand, the Catholics seem to be moving more towards the bishops, the collegiality of the church, not one man with the collegiality of it. And here it seems to me we're moving towards each other.

It seems to me that many of the developments in the last two decades have been very providential, and are in fact responsible for this fact that we are inevitably moving closer to one another. I think one of it, one part of it stems from discoveries, for example, in sociology and psychology, which are very helpful in helping to understand why we think as we do, and helping us to realize that some of our attitudes may be in group prejudices rather than based on dogmatic tenets. On the other hand, we have increased technology, and one means of communication, which make it impossible for us to be unmindful of people in the fear of the most corners of the world. Pope John and parliamentarist speaks of this as socialization or internationalization. But this, in a very real sense, it seems to me, is achieving God's providential designs in making us see the reality of the Christian message, and bringing diverse groups closer together. He saves mankind, not just America. He saves Russia as well. He's the God of Russia as well as our God. And he stands above both of us. And this can give us a certain amount of humility.

We only wish that perhaps that Russians might have a bit more humility. But our qualities of humility are not that great either, particularly in the election year. Well, let's move on to another issue here. One of the things that has always stunned me, I, again, one of these things I grew up with, one of these stereotypes was the Roman Catholic Church was the monolith. Big ol' iceberg out there was the same everywhere in the world. And now I discover that, from my Catholic friends, that this isn't so at all. There, in many ways, there is as much freedom of discussion, diverse points of view within the Roman Catholic Church as they are within our own Protestant Church. I'm thinking particular, let's say, Latin America now. It used to be, as I understood it, the bishops down there oftentimes, and I think the time you said this. Aligned themselves with the hierarchy, the political hierarchy, with the people who had money and so on. And now we discovered, in many ways, a Catholic action. They're the ones who are inside as you put up a Christian revolution.

And this is amazing for many of us who thought that by definition the Roman Catholic Church was unchangeable. And now we discover it's changing sometimes much more rapidly than we can. We Protestants, who, by definition, supposedly are living in the ongoing reformation. Well, Johnny, I think if we look at it from a historical point of view, again, I brought in history before in the Council of the Vatican there and in fallibility and everything. From a historical point of view with the development of the Church and of Christianity, I think that the Catholic Church has tended to be more on the defensive. And when you say you had that monolithic view of the Church, I think it comes from, say, the Catholic reformation at the Council of Trent, where before that Luther, first of all, made his statements on the freedom of the individual conscience and so forth. Yeah, the Church felt that ahead of come back and protect itself. And we had to protect the dogmas, in other words, so that there hasn't been as much growth as we would like over the past century since Trent.

But now, in the situation in Latin America, the revolution is coming from the low. And the Church is in the forefront of it. It's in part, I suppose, a reaction to the actual social needs there. And I think it's a practical, in part, it's a practical realization that unless the Church really consumed itself with the social needs of the downtrodden, the Church is on the way out in Latin America. However, at the deep level, it's certainly a realization that these people are human beings who have every right in all these social, political fields to take a large part in running the societies. Let me ask a question here. Tom, you said something about Christian revolution. Now, there was a very striking phrase. And in this context of Latin America, you said this. A very striking phrase, because for me, the religion so often is meant just the legitimation of the status quo. It is somehow making sure God says, okay, I'm thinking about the Midwest, you know, that was it when I was growing up.

God was a good middle-westerner. And revolution? Oh, of course not. Yeah, that's the opposite. That's from atheists and communists and all those bad people. And now, you say Christian revolution in the context of Latin America, tell me about this. This is amazing. This is really interesting. I wish we had time to just talk about this. As Bill said, in past ages, it was easy to see how, say, members of the hierarchy in Latin America, for instance, would tend to identify with the upper classes. Well, today in Latin America, especially when you look at the church there, more and more, you see the members of the hierarchy identifying with the workers and the peasants, the landless proletariat. And actually stepping in, stepping down from their previously exalted social position to really become one with the aspirations of the multitudes of the people that they are shepherds.

The bishop is a pastor. He's a representative of Christ. He's a shepherd of his people. So in Latin America, it's very easy to see how a real Christian revolution is taking place. We look at Latin America today and those who are familiar with the situation claim that communism, for one thing, is far from being really revolutionary in Latin America. It's a disintegrating thing. It's torn with the pay-paying Moscow dispute. It's really fumbling around trying to find out where to pick up and where to begin again. For instance, in labor, the communists have repeatedly tried over the past few years to organize united labor front in Latin America. And constantly, they've been frustrated. And one of the foremost influences in this has been the efforts of Christian-influenced labor movements and a really Christian spirit in the labor movement, for instance, in Latin America, where you have Christians and even priests coming out and preaching a Christian revolution. A revolution whereby the people are demanding their rights, their rights that belong to them as human beings, as children of God, and they are going to get these rights.

And they pray to God, they'll be able to get them peacefully. But if they can't get them peacefully, well, if necessary, they're ready to really revolt. Yes, that's true. I think it's one of the most hopeful signs. But, of course, we have a revolution going on in our own country, don't we? Race. Maybe we ought to just chat for a few minutes here at the end about that. Tom Leatherwood, I know that you've been involved in something that seems to be most interesting, and maybe you'd tell us about it, just in this area of race. Well, I'd like to make a few comments first as you were talking. It seems interesting that the common social concerns and the social concerns for justice and equal rights, have in a sense called the churches, both the Protestant and the Catholic Church, back together because they focused on the individual and individual justice and community, the justice of the community and the individual within the community. And it's very peculiar that the church has not been calling the people to this, but the people who stand within this injustice have been calling the church to action and demanded action by the church.

And it's in this that both Protestant and Catholic churches have come together, and I'm speaking, as John said, about the concern in the United States today for the American Negro and all those minority people who have been subjected to injustice and who are not equal under the law. And we're talking about the ecumenical movement, something of an ecumenical movement has been occurring on a small scale, certainly, but among Protestant and Catholic students in the last Android students, yes, in the past three or four weeks, now nearly 100 seminaries have come together in a common concern for the passage of comprehensive civil rights legislation in the Senate. As a symbol of this, Jewish, Protestant, and Roman Catholic students are standing together 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for as long as necessary, at the Lincoln Memorial as a witness to the kind of concern which we have and which we have been called to, as members of this community of love, not as Protestants, not as Catholics, but as members of the same community.

It's everyone's talking about this now. There's something of a redemptive force at work, if I can use that word. Yes, I think you can. There's something of a redemptive force, and this social concern, which is calling us back to the central thing in our faith in a way, we have to be careful not to identify our faith as was done in years past with the social gospel. I think that there is really a prophetic call today to seminary students, I'm speaking out particularly here, but to the whole Protestant and Roman Catholic church in this concern in the community for justice and equal rights for all their citizens. I think, just in line with this about being called to action, of an article that recently where the picture of Christ knocking on the door was used as symbolic of the outcry for justice from those who are suffering from prejudice and injustice.

That perhaps in this cry for help, this is actually a Christ knocking at the door. The door of church is all over, bringing renewal and identification with Christ in His ministry. I think an important part of being Christians is realized that we are called to be Christ, to one another and to those around us, and that this call for help, this pressing need. We are becoming more and more aware of is perhaps a sign for us to take our stand and play our part in Christ's ministry. Now this is really Christ knocking on our doors and I've been amazed at the things that have come along with this current vigil in Washington. We've discovered not only a renewal of our concern for our brothers in their plight, but also discovered a good many other things.

This has been a stimulus for a renewed dialogue and a renewed common sharing of concerns between Protestants and Catholics. Also in terms of our Jewish brothers that have been taking part in this also, we're beginning to discover one another and what we share in our faith and heritage in a new way so that many more things are happening as a result of this than just the most important and our primary concern, which is the passage of civil rights legislation. In some ways it's interesting that maybe it's a deep confirmation of what we talk about when we say the sovereignty of God that we need to see that this is God speaking in these revolutions. And oftentimes speaking outside of all those channels that we were normally used to hearing him speak, you know, the popus and so on, that this is God speaking out there in a street corner from the Birmingham jail, from the little hut way off in the hills of Brazil somewhere.

And he's speaking to his church who sometimes have deaf ears, but his judgment is always mercy because he's seeking to heal his church. Because if we're right, if we're right that the end of man is the end that's be found in the community of love, the community of justice. We know that all these other things go on where we're human beings, we live through the rough and tumble of life. But if our faith is right, that God is speaking in the struggles of our time. And he's speaking to us who sometimes were deaf, who had it too good, who were enjoying ourselves as ministers yet, and perhaps as priests. And he's speaking, speaking, saying, it's humanity who I'm concerned about. And my church must be for humanity, and I will correct my church if they aren't for humanity.

Indeed, perhaps I will even witness the death of some of my church if they're not for humanity, because it's who we worship finally. God and His sovereignty, and not my little Protestant church or my little wisdom. Maybe this is what we're discovering, and all of these revolution's going on. God is speaking in our history, and isn't it great that He is? I mean, this is, my gosh, history does mean something. God would not be the one we say is, unless these kind of things were going on. So, just as he's spoken the Old Testament times in the past month, I've had the privilege of hearing Barbara Ward, the British economist, speak twice. And each time she brought up the message from the Old Testament where God turns to his people, and he says, I don't want your sacrifices, your parental offerings. I want, this, the sacrifice I want is you to go out to the gates of the city and take care of my poor. As long as you don't have compassion for the poor, how can I consider your sacrifices? I think constantly throughout history we are called back to this meaning of being turned towards God and compassion for our brothers. I think we have to be careful to realize that there's no final answer. There are ambiguities in everything that we do, but we feel that we must respond to the call wherever we find it, to the humanity of all men, the common brotherhood of all men.

And it's significant, I think, that this is the thing that is bringing the churches back together today again and this common ecumenical concern. Now, we can accept the ambiguity because we know that God rules and over rules are deeds and misdeeds. And the hope for ourselves after all we're dying, every one of us here, we're going to be gone in a minute or two, a year or two, who knows when. But the meaning of life is with God and he does rule and he'll overrule our misdeeds and this is the glory of it, that we can stand to be wrong. At the same moment, being responsible in so far as we can, we can stand the ambiguity. This discussion of social action has been the fourth in a series of theolog's dialogues. On these programs, you are invited to eavesdrop as it were, on a part of a continuing dialogue and fellowship between Roman Catholic students of Mary-Noll Seminary, located near Ossending, New York, and students of the Union Theological Seminary in New York City.

Union is a non-denominational seminary. Participating on this afternoon's discussion from Mary-Noll, have been Bill McIntyre, Tom Morris, and Peter Berry. Union students participating were John Reigns, John Peterson, and Tom Leatherwood. The Nicene Creed heard on this program is from the American Folk Mass by Ian Douglas Mitchell, and is sung by the Canterbury Choir of Northwestern University. This is Don Crale for WRVR. Man was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary. Man was made. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

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The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.

The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary. The Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary is a non-denominational seminary.