Gateway to Ideas; 21; Present-Day Immigration Waves

[Female Announcer]: Gateway to ideas. [Strings swell] [Strings swell] [Strings swell][Female Announcer]: Gateway to ideas. A new series of conversations in which ideas are discussed in relation to reading. Today's program; 'Present Day Immigration Waves' is moderated by Leo Rosten well known author, and special adviser to the editors of look magazine. [Male Host]: Our guests are Pietro Di Donato, famous novelist and short story writer. Whose first book 'Christ in Concrete' has been translated into 20 languages. Its first chapter incidentally will shortly be published in a collection called, the world's best short stories. Mr. Donato has written a biography of mother Cabrini called 'Immigrant Saint' and his latest book is called, 'The Penitent'. Our second guest is Dr. Seymore

Yellin, assistant professor of Sociology at New York University who is especially interested in the religious and the class aspects of minority groups. And the first thing that might be of interest to those who're listening in is that the 3 of us are all children of immigrants, and that this is hardly surprising event. In that, our country perhaps more than any in history as a country- of immigrants. I think it was president Kennedy who said, 'We are a nation of immigrants.' And Roosevelt before that who said, 'Every American- if you trace his ancestry back far enough. Is an immigrant.' The story of American immigration i think is one of the most fascinating stories in cultural history. And I think we ought to start out by sketching rapidly what happened in the United States which was such an extraordinary event, in the history of mankind. We know of nothing- quite like this immense movement of people. From

various parts of the world, to form a new- a nation, on a continent which was virgin land- that which offered the opportunity for political experiment in a way this never been done before, uh. Dr. Yellin why don't you bring us a little bit of historical background and sociological insight into the immigration movement into the United States. [Yellin]: Well in terms of blocking out some rough time periods it's sometimes uh- customary to refer to first of all the lead colonial immigration in the United States which you could roughly trace from say the founding of Jamestown in 1607, to say 1800. [Male Host]: Mhm. [Yellin]: Uh, during roughly these 2 centuries uh, the bulk of the migration into the country is from northern and western Europe uh- of the whites that is- [Male Host]: ?inaudible? the English, the Dutch- [Yellin]: Yes. [Male Host]: -the french to a lesser extent. [Yellin]: Yes- yes, 2/3'rds roughly of the

Europeans coming at this time are from- [Male Host]: Mhm. [Yellin]: -uh- England alone. [Male Host]: Mhm. Mhm. [Yellin]: O- of course it's also during this period that technically speaking you are also having the uh, negro migration into the country. Though on an involuntary basis. [Male Host]: Uh- was that technically called immigration? After all the negroes were brought here as chattel, as pieces of property. They were brought in the way cargos of goods were brought in. Uh, yet they were human beings, and they added to human resources of this country. Now when you talk about immigration, do you make a distinction between forcible- [Host Laughs Nervously] [Male Host]: -entry into the country. That is forcibly brought in, literally as slaves an- in chains. As against people came in voluntarily? [Yellin]: Well in terms of trying to account for say the religious- or racial- or national origin- composition of a society, Uh. Of course you would have to distinguish between the migrants who came in, more or less by choice, an- those who came in uh,

involuntarily. So we would count the negroes uh, as migrants, let's put it that way. go to statue about immigrants perhaps not as immigrants what is there any other group opposes [Yellin:] Into the United States? [Male Host:] Yeah. [Yellin:] No, I think that all the other groups that came into the United States more or less came in by choice, if you of course you keep in mind that the movement from the native land that are all sorts of pushes operating. [overlapping] [Male Host:] You mean like [inaudible] contracts and inducements which turned out not to be doing... What about the Chinese, Mr. Di Donato? I know you've recently done a quite extraordinary piece on the Chinese in New York and you talked to a great many Chinese. Now, did any of them come here really in the force of being "shanghaied" in order to work out in the west in the mines and on the railroads? [Di Donato:] No, they really wanted to come here. I think of all the

races, they most, more urgently, wanted to become part of our society than many of the other minorities. [Speaker 1]: Why was that? Why would they more say, than the Jews who faced persecution, or the Irish who really were starving, or the Germans who wanted religious freedom, or the English? [Speaker 2]: I think that there cultural background of being much older and being familiar with the great migratory movements within their own, meri- Oriental sphere, that they were familiar with with going to richer lands, being basically an agricultural people, and as you know with the Gold Rush in California they were invited to come because the immigrants that had preceded them suddenly felt American, suddenly felt of the new world,

and wanted immediate riches. [Speaker 1]: You mean the Chinese immigrants? [Speaker 2]: No, no, no the Irish, the German and the other. They induced the Chinese to come. But not long after they had arrived their ability to work, to apply themselves, constituted in the minds of the California people a menace. [Speaker 1]: It's always interested me that in every nation in every population the incursion of cheap labor which actually benefits the society is regarded by so many as a threat. [Speaker 2]: Well, it's a paradox in a sense. We might say that our great riches and expansion derived in a sense from prejudices; fear of another minority. The incommunicability between the minorities, exploited by the contract, by the by the boss man. And that way they could be kept apart and isolated and more hours

gotten out of them. Worse conditions or making the great, incredible profits of the of the titles and builders of the railroads and of the mines of the last century. [Male Host:] Of course, the Chinese undoubtedly were responding to terrible famine problems and overpopulation. That was true also, I think, with some of the Western European groups, but the thing that distinguished the Chinese is the way in which they have subsequently been treated or were from the beginning the old business of treating them as people who are not even eligible for citizenship. [Speaker 2]: Yes, although they were originally welcomed as a source of cheap labor particularly with regard to the transcontinental railroad construction. When that was completed in the eighteen-sixties, the eighteen-seventies combined with that

completion was a general downturn in business conditions in the West. Then you started to get traditional antagonisms developing towards the Chinese and in response to this antagonism, which quite often took the form of physical violence, they displayed an interesting reaction pattern of spatial with a drawl, into the Chinatowns of the larger city, going into particularly two lines of business: restaurants and laundries. Where they reasoned there would be minimal competition. [Speaker 1]: And a very small investment. [Speaker 2]: Very small investment, yes, and down to the present day they remained highly isolated group and they and the Japanese on the west coast where the subject

of a particular form of racism directed towards the Orientals in terms of a whole set of notions of innate inferiority, cheap labor and so on, and were subject to extremely prohibiting legislation with regard to the numbers allowed to come. [Speaker 1]: It's other groups, of course, who face different outbursts, whenever you have depression when you have an unstable social condition, you begin to get these terrible manifestations of prejudice people forget that in the South in some of the cities the Irish Catholics were really persecuted and beaten and pretty badly and in New York City very often the Irish were persecuted against as being undesirables. And, I suppose every new group that comes here, with exception the English who always have high status and were, above all, literate, you see, and well-educated. [Speaker 2]: Well, I always feel I'm living in an English country. [Speaker 1]: Because you speak English? and you write English? [Speaker 2]: Well I think it's safe to say that the United States is an English speaking Country. [Speaker 1]: I think we minorities brought passion with us, and color, and of course

we brought the Judeo-Christian civilization, we brought the arts. We're conscious of ourselves even as the Chinese that I was talking with they say our virtues are being held against us. [Speaker2]: The Chinese said this? [Speaker 1]: this excited state as we said the show don't appear emptier dealing with the corpses we you don't find us we chat with the chinese derelicts on the streets there are the families that dominate social unit were held suspect because were an ethical and conservative people maybe they resented cauterize the color of our skin so you see in this glorious country no there is there is a great deal of flood of unpleasant realities we referred to this country being english yes the presence of minorities in the society indicates the presence of a dominant group was subjecting the minorities too far less categorical differential cyanide and it away are traditionally prefers to of

course is the wasps the white protestant side you more comfortable that italians are taken or after columbus discovered it and chris christie gave its name but we would spoke italian the italians into very much anti immigration says there's already settled in paris now does the ignition start only samples and so you said earlier something about really gave passion and so it'll be interesting to trace for a moment some of the contributions that have been made to be richness of american life across every aspect of american culture that has been fed into the side we by a group from all over the world there's nothing that i know like if you're not doing well you there's no doubt you can trace a variety of instances say with regard to music and food and language and theater

and without attempting to de emphasize this i think we should also keep in mind that still terms of the dominant basic culture patterns the united states it's you know anglo saxon yes despite a whole range of contributions to the society by members each immigrant group so two things i think that are interesting here the concept of them all the anglo saxon us commitment to the common law to trial by jury to the system by which people's individual rights are guaranteed is one of the dominant things that every group in the society has accommodate itself to and has benefited from that we've talked about the excesses rights discrimination nevertheless the laws remain pretty pure and dominantly anglo saxon the whole political question

and you have like for example or a fifty million italians and legitimacy america and so forth and enjoy the country's is the immigrant a certain type of person so he says yes the phrases that i stood outside st peter's with karl eighty years and he said marriage was wonderful to make money but italy's to when you were out where your harley seats like we have given three thousand years come and talk to me then he said he was in orange county was showing the other parts only in the head of moral spectrum singing was it what he was getting at certain birds don't leave their next week we promise we stay here not everybody can emigrate yes there's the problem of whether or not they are consistent say differences personality wise between those who stay in those who emigrate still very ambiguous one pattern which is clear kabul it's not a hard and fast rule is that

those who migrate of course tend to much more often come from them bottom of the social scale but this privileged a stronger sense of steak and so there's a more adventurous spirit i'm afraid to move to new jersey i really came home welcome and my mother could rewrite your my father night they came across the water what do you think they came my father didn't want to be a soldier that marriage is at the king's anthem was wonderful invitation to become reading sold yet as the warren ethiopia's afford them and they're and he preferred romance and that he didn't drink until paulson and there was america but of course many immigrants are headed for america but they didn't know that was a central america south america and many of them ended up and the other americans there's a good deal of the italian flow ones argentina's and the very floor she calmly they're bought by a large economic considerations all

tremendously throughout history is causing human mind gration from one place to another economic difficulties of a lower a better economic is it really didn't work and have your children he can work plus i suppose the religious discrimination as for which they were fleeing after all jews were being slaughtered regularly in russia and in poland and romania are they had had hundreds of years of misery and they learned about this land where you were allowed to be a jew and presumably weren't going to be persecuted killed the same thing was true the catholics were having a rough time in savings from some protestant groups and others are very interesting book that it was put up by blaser and monaghan called beyond the melting pot which raises questions to which i think we can address ourselves for the second half to the program the differences between the kind of immigration we had up to let's say nineteen thirty or so when nineteen fourteen up to the war and what has happened since then and it's no secret to say that in the city of new york for example were very much aware of the new

kind of integration because generally that means the puerto rican the enormous incursion actually statistically are proportionately of puerto ricans into the city of new york and all of the problems that represents says the puerto ricans first are american citizens and they come here rather differently from the way that many of the groups came here to talk about that was dylan well the the influx the great influx of puerto ricans into this country it is essentially from nineteen forty five on triggered off perhaps seems crucially why the development of low cost ship and air transport between the island and new york city perhaps it's a case of a historical accident to account for the flow into this city where the bulk of the migration has always gone and now it's estimated that the puerto ricans in new york city are somewhere between seventy eight hundred thousand in

size a lot not all those migration bird sometimes your accounting for a good deal of the uk the increase you point out mr austin i come in as citizens to the fact that puerto rico is a commonwealth this peculiar to the country is neither a state nor a territory so they come in as citizens they have the advantage that many of them have been exposed to some degree of english and schools back in puerto rico but again you find a familiar pattern they're providing a cheap labor supply and that has been so far a main economic function of the life of a new york city the loss of course show the usual pattern at least the first generation of the ghetto form than wade fields block

island in the city by the way it's a pretty good journalistic account of everyday life of a puerto rican in this city and i think it's a big deal this ballot for other cities which are now fined colonies people forget that this was too early or you know when they get off the boat and german would be met by his relatives a would be taken to the german part of new york an italian would be taken to the italian part and so this has always been true because of a language problem because of relatives because of the newness of the land you could find the restaurants of your locality in a certain area in the case of the puerto ricans of course this is intensified by the difficulties of finding housing yes this is something that comes up very well in oscar hanlin spoke with newcomers it's not only does he talked up poorer regions but also the negroes who have come into the city caf for world war two and one very strong point of the book is the very item you mentioned that they are going through a

pattern which you can see having occurred about with previous immigrant groups there's a cycle here that affected the irish the german song in terms of housing conditions alleged crime regular now the lincolns and so on there's nothing especially unique future with regard to these two groups the democrats are different today and to do that work where before it was a wave that built upon society we could not have built america without them we needed and vacant can make a they built of course it worked on the same station the italians built america irish runner news also for all kinds of cliches out today were faced with a what shall we do with the statue of liberty we've closed our doors we have we have just leave probably up reached our democracy now allow it to predict that as nothing can stay still

so we're going to have to do something like that was suggested to me in italy my father didn't know anything about the president says the laws and i think he just cake but today in italy the average italian novel about social security unemployment insurance benefits and everything else and he's certainly would love to be caught everybody want to be an american actually so it had to me why don't you make a first aid well three thousand miles away a wide so that that now now you see is this widespread short yes yes very easy to see but the little mole have escaped the great mountain of america but now i think the mountain is going to have to go go to the mechanics of the world how do we know that i mean that we're going to go we're going to we going to export less consider the ideals of our art and six and our psyche we'll be spiritual engagement we cast a still if we don't do

it and to some extent will begin exporting people yes it is inevitable for instance that was travelers easy it is and becoming as cheap as it is and with the awareness of all americans about the glories of the rest of the world travel has become an industry and more and more americans are going abroad and as they get to go abroad would become far as as far out as a muslim you know let's say let's go back to the time of queen zenobia and i'm in part of song lover's farm form our own black world but were so close to each other it is jill i think too that there's been a great homogenization in the united states isn't only that you had millions of people from different societies calmer but that the rate at which these people have formed a new type called the american prisons the rate of intermarriage with the exception i think of the chinese japanese and many girls of a certain has been more cross breeding between the reason why so many people in the south like to

admit but the rate at which there has been a crossing of racial lines and even now of religious lines has meant that you have really begun to create a a cultural mosaic in this country such as i know of no parallel for an instrument there have been these tendencies towards that the so called melting pot but only a tendency isn't much melting well i think that the major trend of a major trend has not been so much melting pot but was partly called americanization which really maintains an anglo conformity that is the major trend has been shedding and of the cultural patterns which the immigrants brought with them and adopting in most respects really social patterns white anglos killed is a very good word birthing

interested narrow on gotham and he doesn't fly all of the nation the state of new york city because your city is the gateway and then he did a very good job on this americanization thing out i agree with mr arsenault there have been about modernization what's the difference if i like i still love clams can helium he owes and snails in wine but i'd do obey the american laws my sons are americans a man's got an english woman we have we have we have the league so grave social aspect income and that's what makes us america all i meant was that the chances of your having married a scotch english girl in italy where much much smaller cousin or something weather related the literature of the countries very rich and stories about these experiences and member of color eyes of david lansky they were and there they were in a

more for the book that's just been reprinted in paperback terribly sensitive book called khalid sleep by henry roth i described the life of a jewish boy on the lower east side while his vision i will increase it's a sort of the sistine chapel of a tactical american crime the sistine chapel of the puzzles i was the fatal error because because the reality is so fabulous this success to raise a fortune as measured by the results and that this is when the problems that we have you know some of the some of that some of the qualities that my people brought with the uninsured and the idea as evidenced by the movies and all i can tell you is that it was something of a landmark in history for a popular songs some years back to be called by minister shane the idea of a song with the english title becoming popular something my ancestors never dreamed possible or eighties irish rose irish rose as a play for us so that leaves the

infiltration culturally has been one which from my point of view at least means a richness of the society and awareness of difference and what as fashionably called cultural pluralism one last word before we go or feared ikea levy wonders why was visiting others mention of novels reminds me that you can get some insight for example into the irish through something like o'connor's last for our monthly book oh i'd like to finish with a question mark what will emigration be in the future what impact will it have on our ever changing society i would suggest that in ten years we come here again and discuss that you've been listening to a discussion of the differences between past and present immigration waves i guess a band director of the tomato novelist short story writer and actor seymour yellen assistant professor of sociology at new york university my name is leo roston thank you for listening and we hope you'll be

hearing from us again very soon you've been listening to gateway to ideas a new series of conversations in which ideas are discussed in relation to reading today's program the present day immigration waves has presented pietro didonato a well known novelist and short story writer whose latest book is the penitent and doctors see more yellen assistant professor of sociology at new york university the moderator was here roston well known author and special adviser to the editors of look magazine to extend the dimensions of today's program for you a list of the books mentioned in the discussion as well as others relevant to the subject has been prepared you can obtain a copy from your local library or by writing to gateway to ideas post office box six four one time square station new york and pleasing closest and self addressed on the right about six four one time square station in new

york they try to ideas has produced the national educational radio under a grant from the national home library foundation the programs are prepared by the national book committee of the american library association in cooperation with the national association of educational broadcasters technical production by riverside radio's wypr in new york city this is the national educational radio network is fb