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dr david bartlett why did you do that it was a very reluctant move on my part but i finally become so upset with the nation's policy and the war i'm so frustrated by the fact that as a divinity student i really couldn't write any risk refine any way of making a stand against it yeah that i felt this is one way in which i could protest both the war in the underground system which supports it was a moral stand of your impending ministry affect your decision not very much and very much an individual decision you know feel that your future may be in some way be harmed by what you've just done it might possibly affect some congregations in their decision whether or not the army but i don't think that's a very important factor of you were committed to sell twenty other act of civil disobedience no not at this point you know how many students are turning their records nine twenty four understand and how many others are committing other acts of civil disobedience with over a hundred and some were committed some kind of civil disobedience at this point kevin and please stand beardsley and your water this
particular moment well i happen to be social action chairman of the school but again the reaction to getting it reflects personal opinion individual conscience not the beloved leader and i understand that each of the students sending in the drug courts have made a formal statement or signed a formal statement that's true i could rebel force than we the underside members of the yale university divinity school community declare day opposition to the involvement of the united states in the vietnamese war in so doing we affirm first love for our country which with you there in pursuing its present policy concerning vietnam second our solidarity with those on all sides of the conflict we've been made to suffer by the vietnamese war and find their conviction that continuation an escalation of this war as a detrimental effect on this country's maui and which already track support from a just war which we must escalate against poverty at
home and abroad secondly opposition to the structure of the selective service system we're compelled protests one in equities the draft law especially those created by the two us graduate student and afford the ministers to students classification number two inadequate provision for objections of conscience united and these views feeling lesser steps to be inadequate and fully aware of the consequences for action may bring upon us and this community with their foreclosure associate warm or the following prayers of civil disobedience once i'm in our draft cards to promote justice as an expression of a non cooperation with the war and the selective service system to those men of draft age you cannot and conscience participate in this war weary turn to refused induction into military service as long united states is fighting in vietnam three support all those who by reason of conscience
cannot comply with the selective service system and four and from those with our position and urged them to take some were courses of action on all twenty four students who turned in the drug courts have signed a statement of course neither the second act of civil disobedience as to avoid the draft how does that apply to divinity students were ministers it doesn't directly apply unless divinity students attend to refuse the forty classification because if you and just and then if conducted would refuse to serve pricey enough faculty support at the school yes we do again one should make clear that this is a reflection of individual faculty faculty members and is not a faculty position are such that they make some kind of a formal statement yes they do have a statement though there is disagreement among us over the extent to which the present course of military action being pursued by the united states and vietnam is
unwise unwarranted or unjust we the underside members of the faculty of yale university divinity school which to pledge your support to those students who do use of various non violent means are indicating their opposition to the war and has continued its escalation more specifically we declare support of those who decided for reasons of conscience to refuse to cooperate with the draft the such extreme action as this is never to be taken lightly and o are not publicly urge iran to take such action we do leave that whenever the normal channels of influence of persuasion and the news and although civil disobedience in matters of conscience and times of crisis is a legitimate course to pursue we believe that the student's of at yale divinity school or to various using to cooperate with the draft as a form of protest or acting out of conscience and with due consideration the seriousness and consequences of their action
therefore we pledge your support by agreeing to defend publicly their right to take the course of civil disobedience to be available to council with them to stand with them if they're prosecuted vital financial support and personal testimony as to the character insincerity of conviction there should be clear that none of this will mitigate the possible consequences of their action seems to us the least we can do to make it hard for farm income concern over the war and our defense of their act of conscience even if we disagree with that is of course for ourselves or others how many faculty members signed a statement sixteen this include any of the deans of the school this includes all three didn't know that any of them issue individual statements i'm not aware of what they have wanted you personally turning a drafter opposed the war i think we've missed opportunities to negotiate that
conflict and least as important i think the united states itself has are pressing problems at home they're used to attend do at this time butterfield eu citizen can take some kind of democratic action rather than a civil disobedience action to have an effect on the ending of the war has those a touchy question it seems to me though that that at times the area of crisis and particularly threatening decisions before the american people it's not always possible to use only moral suasion first act from from within the established system and that tires one has to take and take respectful position outside the normal stone structure you intend to go into the ministry yes i do you feel the sections and i'm a hindu you know and i don't think it's it's important to ration at this point dr chen and what year are you in the summer fires are clear you're writing from ministry
well i'm heading for some form of intercity work in relation to church but not the passion and concerns are always a partial reason for turning a drug court in a while but i think that in a room with the sun my friends i found this a very personal decision which i felt necessary to make i would like emphasize i think the whole hour action of the group the sign of the petition has nearly a kickoff and that we do have definite plans for followup action there as a group that will be corresponding with ceo's who are in jail but the present time another group will be establishing a counseling center here at the divinity school to counsel people who are concerned about the draft and we're also prevents dame's to be issued to the church are the nominations going to tell them where stanton asked them to consider our nation's so i think tonight move
was significant but it is only beginning of something which is local orange spread when i was in the drug courts now that cars will be taken by a few of our representatives along with iran when sloan coffin to washington dc and they will be presented to the department justice one will just be on our friday i think this friday that's tomorrow right how are any of your learning these things going to washington for more conservative ah i'm not sure there's so some disagreement among all us again as too her dissertation the march on the pentagon now i know some people are opposed to this and i wouldn't feel free to speak for those you know why these people are opposed to sitting in the pentagon are i'm not really sure i think that day well it's it's very difficult to say when you've won you disobey the law one might ask why not
go all the way around but i think even within civil disobedience we draw lines as to our participation ends and i cannot see disrupting the pentagon and my present live action you have any idea what will happen when the justice department get your draft court in particular i would suppose that some are things that happened to people who turn in their cars earlier this week that one it would either be ignored which is most trouble consequence simply be returned to us i don't none of this evolution so does it have any great effect on the government what would you do if your record is returned to the world i can be very pragmatic i think that we have that this action is placing the government in a bind one if they choose to ignore the day of course that are turned in awe people will see this was not being enforced now there'll be our great consideration
among other people are who are not at this point now as to whether they should turn their draft cards later another is if they do not prosecute more people will turn in the courts if a man they do choose to prosecute ah they realize that they're in a fan the flames which would just increase opposition to war more so i think the government is really surprised by this time or but you yourself have corners returned will you do it i will probably return again again there'll be another turn and as i understand that this december and there'll be as a third car turn and planned the spread i am i'm not going to set my debit card back under the present system i'll keep returning you know supposedly just porn decides to prosecute are you prepared to go to jail or pay the final bolts ah i believe one one one not a bass solo on has to suffer the consequences i am prepared to go to jail but
not on protesting way i would as i understand some lost in some others are working on the present their structure to see about it's constitutionality we feel there are definite inequities with an address system in our protest will not just stop with going to jail we want change the structure and this is what we're doing gavin includes donald steed and your divinity student here a deal butter is my first year i understand your draft the station is not the forty plus page script eye on cost but one they currently and have been for about two years why was a well on this long story and i like a little longer as an undergraduate and so not enough in the fall of sixty sixty five address or just in reno my student deferment and i've been having the ground with them since then what do they give you for declassification is administered well i guess the reason for this is that i'm not only official sponsorship of a year of a
church for the ministry home and has occurred as a current law reads you you must warn be in either in the ministry or in preparation for our eye and you must be under the sponsorship of a recognized religious organization her body and i'm not platter why personally did you turn in your draft card well i guess the reason the editor knight was won the iowa and i thought myself a very absurd sort of situations last two years fighting the draft board secondly on the idea i'm very concerned that i stare at what was in solidarity with others who have done so our actions and i am i guess partly it was just i'm under second heart of the whole mess up and just don't know about it this is essentially throwing a right and so if you were to do something you're going to have you're going to go into the ministry but it's uncertain my mind at this point i came here armed
with the idea that the ministry is a good a good profession from which to all from which to to speak to society in a responsible way they handle and this is one reason that i've taken action after night do you feel that your actions and i will harm you your future if you don't tend to go into the ministry well what's a risk that's the risk you take when of reaction you may spread little more dramatic or significant than an everyday action arm if it did hire me and it wouldn't be the first thing that i've done the little army on it's one of those things and whites about i guess you you get hurt and stepdaughter you were heard and step on or ear you exist in the humdrum of life but i don't see which joyce reily you wanna pick any opinions ongoing and wash and saturday and singing and at the pentagon i myself am going to washington arm i have i have questions about about sitting in a plea at the pentagon i think everyone
well everyone i've talked to has has questions about it i see it as a as a potentially positive act of civil disobedience just like turning a draft card is a potentially positive adults but it also has as very negative possibilities to it could it could bring a tremendous reaction and this is another gamble you have to take if you were arrested while he was sitting in the pentagon assuming that you decide to do it what will be a course of actual you've tried raise bail to get out of jail or you stay in jail until trial i guess across a bridge when i get there at this point my stance would probably be all try to raise bail are it depends again what what they put the can you know if the irs what everyone is is what the mood is of the tribe and it's a moody is will disappear are often jailed really do something well i'll have to consider that but you feel the pain bill was really do have a favor after all they're probably make a profit on the old eighty or a hundred dollars bill or they'll charge you well yeah there's a lot of things i do that
do not favorable for my government an end and this isn't something that that i begrudge it on an american citizen on it ironically had a choice to be a canadian citizen i turned the choice town at one time and so i mean i'm proud to be an american and it i wouldn't be acting as i am if i were not an american and proud to be such but you feel that you're sitting in would be more effective if you did go to jail and caused the government to be some small amount of expensive trouble and let's say you were sentenced and some violations sense for let's say three months arbitrarily don't you feel it this would make your the impact of sitting in greater this is never will be again this is something you you don't you don't decide before you knew libby's lawyers it comes by large and you have to you trust that you're making a responsible decision and will you do the department justice which injured record we're all probably mark unsolicited email refused to send it back well you do if the government decides to
prosecute well armed it i suppose all finds good lawyers i can and end what with what facility i can try to or try to chow honestly the yum this sort of service act in the courts end and trying to get justice under the law i mean i've been doing this for these two years with my draft constitution about it to continue to grab your name please and you turn in your drug court tonight and say why what reason can you give us your personal reason for doing this why i included a statement in that they're in submitting their current to the justice department which i could probably reading these are appreciative it is not only with the greatest agony a spirit of the most careful evaluation my own motives i found it necessary to take this painful step of civil disobedience in the fusing to cooperate any firm of the selective service system in my beloved united
states but after the deepest current thought i've come to the conclusion that i must as a disobedient citizen stand my ground against my country in obedience to jesus christ i say this fully realizing that they're in any sincere people committed to god who do not agree with my position and all i can say about this situation is that perhaps this is my cross and not theirs personally i had nothing to gain by this act and everything to lose i have an honorable discharge from the us army and there is a right to a one file a letter a commendation from my former command a commanding officer attesting to the dedication efficiency that service i have a wife and three children in the us three a deferment as a ministerial student i am eligible for for the exemption and my chances of being called a service in vietnam or only slightly higher than that of women and children and it fills needed quite frankly would fear to consider the possible consequences of deception upon my family the plans i have for the ministry and of my life in general there has been every reason for me to take advantage of my immunity and remain
silent and neither fearon or new media sufficient cause to ignore my brothers who was faced with the same fear and without immunity the inequities of the present selective service law or commit themselves to participating in what they believe to be murder nor should fear and unity prevent me from protesting the real danger and black community soldiers and civilians on both sides of this a moral conflict are facing every day america remain silent there is no the course of action left to me but this one if i do not wish to make hypocrisy of my commitment to jesus christ i sincerely hope and pray even though i am a realist that such action on the part of the clergy and ministerial student body will touch the american heartland which i so much believe that i am fully prepared to accept the reality of the crucifixion in which i also believe that when you're going to wash i don't plan to go to washington but for no other reason than as american in
astronomer family things that this has taken too much time from this point howdy do sympathize with those people plan to send in at the pentagon it in general i do as long as this is not become violent action i'm opposed to any kind of violent action while you do that just turns your draft card it will cooperate with the group i think here early twenty four of us we will come to a decision on this but i certainly plan to get it back to them some time again until or unless of course the war in vietnam has ended or the provisions particularly for selective conscientious objector there are objections are in active at that point i think that i would have to we drank and civil disobedience while you do the government decides to press can cause this is something with three children and i had i didn't probably more consideration to the missing high i certainly don't want to become a martyr in the end i'm looking for this and why i
hope that they don't prosecute but on the other hand it really must face is it that they come to it and whether nine us truly are some of the people are you know whether i go to jail i would only because if if i'm forced to jail obviously i do not believe that sitting in jail will particularly of isis of the way lord chooses and fulfill my ministry but i think up to that point certainly you know this act of civil disobedience stands as a park do you think that the akron become more significant if you go to jail and they certainly would be more significant from a family that this odd it's all i think that there are there are i believe about seven hundred men in gaelic the present time because they're usually year i think in most cases are refusing to work at a summit themselves to induction this hasn't been my case there will be like as i said that the very unlikely that i will submit two induction i would say this much that if i go to
jail is because i have refused to carry upon me a sacred symbol of this country and in this attack and if my country that takes this type of action and be you know terribly disappointed in it but i do an essay to think that being in jail is no more effective ministry for me but that this is what it must be that it will be curator nicholas lemann is john hay and you turn in your drug court lesser medium your personal reason for those waters was obvious on disenchantment with the war but i feel it's really destroying america so everywhere you look you see people i'm doing inhumane things for generations so its future because what's the use of this anyway the views of madness going on here and so this is really bothers me because were supping america's energy and you know my great
country is going the pot over this arm personally what finally brought me to this act in opposition to the war was a very personally idea that say mosul us was at home with the idea that you have your soul and its place in your hands and you've got sixty years to travel through life and we can save yourself a place to get from to being too badly dented and i think one of the ways you do that your soul is by aligning yourself with the killing of people align yourself with an unjust war so in order to protect myself don't see i'm cutting my tie with the government is doing this ghastly thing and hoping that by doing this publicly
i might encourage one other person to keep a dead over so are you a conscientious objector not dismal i think i very easily could be a precocious subject or anywhere really could be a pacifist but again i cannot in the end at the moma foresee any war in which are i would not be a pacifist part because i think there's a tremendous efforts along the whole effort of nonviolence and the non violent schoolers willingly the reflection on this as a way to fight injustice and these haven't been thoroughly explored it ralph bell the journalist from manchester is nonviolent army is proposing to sell the rhodesian crushes a good number of areas there they're there is room for christians out of love to fight injustice so i think we should try these an exhaust these before we go about our firing a bullet into another human ones that specifically about the war in vietnam the tree post specifically i think the americans need a whole series of errors
dating back from the original decision not to go ahead with elections all of sochi is closely escalated i think at this point the place that i get to most is the mosque and katzenbach and rust oh god forgive me saying that all we are only aiding and abetting an ally by and thinking that by making them think that now this will fall apart the seams this is true if you believe that a military solution is the only solution in vietnam it was unfairly a military solution is the answer biden i think that a military solution is the answer we are on we just we're not selling any kind of fertile seabed for democracy but for precisely the opposite and so in this current a way i see that what art what we have to do is change the generals minds that a military solution is our way out of vietnam as store also absurd and in an article in look magazine it was a post one of them not very intellectual risings was saying that there are almost all generals are always wrong about all wars was that was a thing and i think i'm disappointed when you believe the din warned
vietnam as the communist invasion from the north you know but i don't know what we all the guardian tells me that all the vietcong is a political arm of the all in the north vietnamese the new republic tells me that it's not all so i don't know which to me i think most enviable north korean his history of understanding of buddhist religion or gossip the individual versus the chinese person to the individual who is worth is english the future of all these things i think that the north the enemies are not that interested in becoming puppets of all right chana so that it is also more likely to be iowa wore of our national liberation as a man who just a beautiful position these delays aren't just it was industrial help ease the one guy standing off great big america isn't that silly are all so yeah we're actually helping him more than holding economists if you're in a powerful enough position to make policy
what would you have the united states do right now about the amount of jewish but i would probably try to have a escalation of peace efforts to take a super power politics moose which means for so borrowing costs oh now i see the very great likelihood of north vietnam getting into a pendulum john situation of spending two years and getting what fifty six thousand american casualties but our wily master other negotiated it other alternative is the enclave very and also i would see a vast escalation in the amount of money and effort poured into the countryside for the health of the presence of this would be buying them off but it certainly be cheaper than the twenty five billion dollars a year that are coming in our city to block things i believe that the united states should withdraw its influence from vietnam altogether that are on the senators who was speaking to the enemy's people now
this do you and keith and all everybody seemed to be saying that his pockets of origin so who is speaking to any of these people i don't know i should think america should withdraw to the extent of where she would be asked to help adam i think the buddhists of the party wish to which helped americans i do not think the vehicle through which to a child in america so i would say as much as possible she should withdraw her influence in that area hospital places like thailand and who seems to be the next to come kevin include lenin's harcourt points over and you turn in your dress or to correct some of the personal reason you do that or personal reason which i did this is in addition to be protest of the war in vietnam of the inequalities of the address system i did this as a crime purse all means of testimony as a symbolic act i feel quite strongly about fighting for the right for selective conscientious objection however i myself and committed to nonviolence
not only as a tactic but as a way of life and i see this in complete harmony with my christian convictions no i did not arrive at a pacifist position cause to an easy process but in the last few years i have been working with dr martin luther king in the south and i have come to find out that in my own experience that nonviolence and power and is is a way of life which brings about it and wins not only the enemy of the war but wins the emmy itself and that way you can bring about a temporary victory not through violence in the end only a lasting peace is ever done with other than peaceful means and concern for the enemy and me in our own country which
for a war a hundred years ago we lost in the civil war more lives than any other war up until the world was put together a hundred years of going through actions of educating people of going slow oh we made some progress for the negro make some progress and then in the south in and changing white attitudes but ten years of nonviolent action of people taking and saying i would rather suffer over there obviously are being the blade in my grave and be a slave and not being willing to retaliate against our people who persecute them has it as major transformation in less than ten years that the only thing like him in history so i think almost sense the crossing of the red state and the number of people it lies ever lost him a non violent battle last ten years or less than our lost in a large dry and through this experience having
seen people was bitterness and hayden their heart are being changed by the people who are willing to suffer are rather than to retaliate arm i have come to see that there's a power in iran that no violence can stop and realizing mean the practicality the difficulties involved in trying to apply this onto a national policy i do see that there is a need to seek a peaceful alternatives i think the tragedy of warriors that we so often think that it is the only solution we don't look elsewhere and all is for this reason that only have taken a step which has become an alderman symbolic step on one too except for consequences of this and i think that this is what is needed and to lead people to look towards all other alternatives
for myself i'm for us and i am in addition to being in divinity school i'm not subject to a bit drab but i'm saying that it would be hypocritical of me to urge others to take their position on conscience if i myself standing in such position where i'm immune from that same type of penalties and decisions that they would have to make so voluntarily i'm accepting this type of suffering and gotten more to do this and then to be say i stand with you and taking your decisions are always based upon formed conscience you feel that ultimately are these acts of civil disobedience will have an effect on the united states policy in the war it's an indirect affect on dr king's bus boycott in a sense the overnight and conservation director of the activity one person i don't think going to jail in selma
and in the end of the war a knee i mean and in the improvisation in the south and the voting rights bill but what i say is happening in civil disobedience is that the person who takes a step then allows other people have the courage to take a more moderate step and because it's so other people to think about it so that you you get up the pyramid and always the one he's taking a much more radical step of pulling this whole pyramid of people along with them so i see that the action in this is primarily tour acted towards those within the church on another religious bonnie's and concern humanists who are concerned about the problem and giving them the courage to take a step along it is one of the many maxims of a civil rights movement that were not only trying to save the white men's bodies white men's souls and one of the most menacing suspend the south is once the once you have people take a step to stand up against
segregation on the white side of the line other people were then free from the fear of all over there pressure on them from the ku klux klan or are from just plain style pressure which is often more hard to face having is far more on digital to speak your neighbor who you've lived with three years and disagree with them that is awfully on and face of the ku klux klan or the state troopers so consequently i see that the change being brought about by frame people from fear are and i think that this is the main thing i think that that becomes the us is trying to decide whether an act of civil disobedience i can be taken if if the act is of such a nature that you must violent a lot more to do with your conscience says and you don't violate the law unless you actually have to take a step in and the n in civil disobedience thing you're fighting is fear is fear of the enemy that makes his two acts of brutality the innocent people we do is so the one
thing you don't want to do is to create fear so when you talk about civil disobedience there are steps in this art i do not see that turning in a draft card or award is breaking the law and my case isn't a step which it creates fear and the public there other types of civil disobedience which become of the nature of almost forcing people to do things now that is is down and gotten the last level i'll of nonviolent tactics this this has resorted to in low fours so i see that quite a difference between breaking the law in turning in a draft card symbolically and our blocking the workings of farm society to physical means are we going down to washington and so i'm not certain how i must keep up my studies but if at all possible i intend to go down for the march on washington and we use it in at the pentagon at the present time i do not intend to said inhabited at the pentagon there's an old saying which are like you
one was do with the spirits as do it myself open to this but at the present time i do not feel that i am in the position where this is a meaningful work for me and light of what i've just said while not denying the right to others to take such an act
Series
Listen!
Episode
Yale Divinity Students
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WRVR (Radio station: New York, N.Y.)
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The Riverside Church (New York, New York)
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cpb-aacip-528-nv9959dj9c
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Episode Description
Yale Divinity Students are interviewed about their move to turn in their draft cards.
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News Report
News
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News
News
Social Issues
War and Conflict
Education
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Civil disobedience--United States; War
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00:37:29.352
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Producing Organization: WRVR (Radio station: New York, N.Y.)
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The Riverside Church
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Citations
Chicago: “Listen!; Yale Divinity Students,” The Riverside Church , American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed June 21, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-528-nv9959dj9c.
MLA: “Listen!; Yale Divinity Students.” The Riverside Church , American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. June 21, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-528-nv9959dj9c>.
APA: Listen!; Yale Divinity Students. Boston, MA: The Riverside Church , American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-528-nv9959dj9c