U.S. Policy in Southeast Asia: Debate between Assistant Secretary of State for Pan Eastern Affairs, William P. Bundy and Senator Ernest Gruening of Alaska

At this time I should like to welcome all of you to this foreign policy forum sponsored by the Reform Democratic Clubs of Manhattan's West Side 20th Congressional District and the Foreign Policy Association. We have long believed that it is important to bring to the community important and vital public issues. And certainly there is no issue of more concern today than the question of war and peace. And the question of United States Foreign Policy and as of the moment all of the eyes in this country and the world are centered upon the situation in Southeast Asia and Vietnam. I think tonight we are really, all of us, are

delighted that we have 2 spokesmen who will deal with the question of our policy in Vietnam. We have the Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs, William Bundy, and- [applause] [applause] Uh, [applause] Out of, out of- out of respect and courtesy for all speakers I would hope that you would applaud when you feel it in order and refrain if you feel any other emotion. [laugher and applause] We also are honored to have the Senator from the 49th state of the Union, Earnest Gruening, a former-

[applause] [applause] He's really a former neighbor of ours, having some 40 years ago, lived at 103rd street and Riverside Drive. [laughter] The format will be a presentation by Mr. Bundy of the administration's policy for approximately 15 to 20 minutes. Then to be followed by a presentation on the part of Senator Gruening, which may in part differ from the position taken by Mr Bundy. Then, 5 to 10 minutes rebuttal. After that, the

floor will be open for questions. Our first speaker tonight is William P. Bundy, Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs. He belongs to a family well noted for public service. His brother as you know, is McGeorge Bundy, who is the White House Presidential advisor on Foreign Affairs. Our speaker tonight came to the state department from the department of defense where he was Assistant Defense Secretary for International Security Affairs. He was one of that brilliant group of vigorous young men who was brought into into government service by our late President, John F. Kennedy. He has been very much concerned and involved with the formulation of Foreign Policy and the Far East and particularly and the Vietnam situation. He is, among other things I might mention, a democrat. He is a person who brings a great deal of understanding and

experience to us tonight and I think that we certainly owe a deep debt of appreciation and gratitude to him for having been willing to travel from Washington tonight to present the administration's point of view and also for being willing, as i think it is terribly important, to speak out in a forum such as this, on the administration's policy, to have an opportunity to debate, face to face, many of the questions involved and to permit participation by the general grassroots of this Congressional District. So I want to thank him and introduce to you the Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs. [applause] [applause] Congressman Ryan, Senator Gruening, ladies and gentleman. Uh, I certainly don't feel there's anything unusual in a representative of the department or the administration

addressing a gathering of this sort and I'm particularly honored to share the floor tonight with a man whom I deeply respect, Senator Gruening. Even though we shall disagree, I think, in a great many respects. I have a warm personal feeling for Reform Democrats as a Democrat all my life politically, and that having [crowd commotion] having had a- having had a great friend named Jim Lanegan who had something to do, I think, with the origins of Reform Democrats in this city. And also some warm feelings toward Columbia and this general area of New York. Now, I want to talk this evening to a subject that is of the greatest importance to all of us. And certainly not less so do any of us who went through as I did, 4 and a half year of military service, and who felt deeply the lessons of the 30. I'd like to attack the subject tonight in several ways, but

first to look at what our basic objectives in our states and our national interests are in Asia as a whole and specifically in Southeast Asia. Secondly, to look specifically at the history of the situation in Vietnam, how we came to be so deeply involved, and why we think it's a vital importance today, and the general situation today. And lastly to talk about what our hopes for peace are for Southeast Asia as a whole. A more lasting effect along the lines of what the President said in his speech of April 7th. Now first of all, what is at stake in Southeast Asia and what are our objectives? Well I think our objectives for the whole of Asia, for Southeast Asia particularly are quite clear. That the nations of the area should develop as free and independent countries according to their own views. We hope that means they'll evolve toward democratic structures, but that's for them to

work out. And there's no question that the future of Asia will be determined by Asian peoples. Secondly, that the nations of the area should not threaten each other. And thirdly that no nation or combination of nations should seek to exert domination over the area or wide areas of the area of Asia. That last one after all is the fundamental reason why we fought against the military leaders of Japan in the last war. It makes a great deal of difference to us whether in the next generation the Asia that evolves is an Asia that such as I've described. Of these independent nations developing on their own ethnic and historic base, which is more or less the case except for the divided countries of Asia today, or whether we have in effect another wave of what might be called an Asian Civil War if you call the 1st

and 2nd World Wars in Europe the European Civil War, which I think is an accurate way to describe it. For you cannot contain such wars. They are bound to hit nations with which we are vitally and intimately connected and to threaten our own national security. And that surely is the lesson that we all learned, I think, in the 30s and the 40s. Now that general proposition leads us to a question of Southeast Asia. Why is Southeast Asia important to us? Well I think a glance at the map will give you some idea. Because it- although it's distant to us, it does have great strategic significance. It is located across the East/West air and sea lanes between the Indian subcontinent and Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines in the Pacific generally, it dominates the gateway between the Pacific and Indian oceans, and in communist hands this area would pose a most serious threat to the security of nations such as India to the West

and inevitably uh the nations that would be further down, Malaysia and so on and of the Philippines. Not simply and immediately, I'm not talking in the domino theory sense of automatic results, but because the impetus of aggression feeds on itself, uh, and the forces that are seeking to resist aggression are inevitably disheartened by each successive advance. And this again is a lesson of the 30s. Not in a domino sense then but because what happens to Southeast Asia and the key countries and it is bound to make the protection of the independence the other nations of the area progressively of the pacific areas as a whole, very much more difficult. So that's the fundamental relationship of Southeast Asia to our objectives for Asia. We seek no territory, we seek to overthrow no regime that is now entrenched there. We seek no bases in Southeast Asia and we will withdraw our military power the moment that the security of those nations is

assured. You have heard the president on this, and we mean it. But, we are and we must, because no one else is there to do it, play the major role with the assistance of a great many other nations, although we are playing the major role in Vietnam, others are playing a major roles in the defense of Malaysia against the threat from Indonesia. This is not a one-sided or a- or a one man burden at all. But it is a job that at the present time and for a period at least, until the rulers of communist china see the impossibility of expanding territory, and the rulers of North Vietnam who of course are different, it's not a monolith, but who are have their own expansionist aims until these expansionist aims are frustrated. And we see developing something like what has happened in some- the case of Soviet Russia since roughly 1955. We have got a job to do of helping. The nations have got to do it for themselves basically. The war in South Vietnam depends

fundamentally on the South Vietnamese. But we have an absolutely crucial role to play in helping them maintain themselves so that the Asia of the next generation will not be one of domination, instability and threats to our own national interest and to the whole piece of world. So that, I think fundamentally, is what it's about in Vietnam. Now let me talk specifically about Vietnam. It really is of course a tragic history of a colonial regime that did not prepare the nation for independence. Uh, and ended up fighting a war against a nationalist movement that was taken over by communist leaders. We- and and so in '54 you had the Geneva Accords, which established 2 nations with a ?inaudible? status at

least equivalent to North and South Korea or West Germany today established these 2 nations divided by a demarcation line with a provision for elections, free elections, to be held on the question of reunification in 2 years. And I could dwell at length on that but I'd rather just set it down as a thing that I'm sure will be asked in the questions. Uh, the conditions for free elections simply did not exist in the North and there was really no claim that they did in 1956 so that provision was not carried out. And you had the development in effect of 2 separate nations which had always been significantly different. Even though they're both Vietnamese. Uh, and with significant differences. And you had the development in the South, under Ngo Dinh Diem, of a government that for its first 5 years accomplished a great deal for its people. Uh, it instituted a- [crowd murmurs] I said it accomplished a great deal for its

people. And it did. Uh, it instituted a land reform program under ?inudible? It expanded education enormously and so on. And what had been expected certainly had been expected by Hanoi to be a situation that would simply fall apart, had a life of it's own. I don't say that the people were totally in support of their government at all. But they were clearly and identifiably working into a position where their dominant sentiment was anti-communist and opposed to domination from Hanoi. And that i think has been verified by their whole conduct throughout the last 10 years and particularly in the last 5. [crowd murmurs] Now, Hanoi always intended to have the South. They expected to have it happen by peaceful means. When this didn't happen in the first 5 years and when there was this relative degree and remember we were dealing with a whole new country here. The stakes were made of course. The

government was not a model of democracy, it had a good deal of repression in it. But not compared to Hanoi. [applause] So in '59, not seeing the South collapsing and falling into its lap, Hanoi began the systematic program of the infiltration of trained, subversive military and guerrilla and all sorts of personnel to the South with military equipment directing them in a systematic movement to overthrow and subvert the government of the South. From the start and as the government, while government has consistently said in the white papers of both 1961 and 1965 without deviation, engaged in a course amounting just as clearly as the sending of conventional armies or in a much more subtle way to aggression against the South. Now at the same time, the Diem government developed increasing weaknesses.

It narrowed in and drew in on itself. It alienated increasing sectors of its people. It alienated particularly too many, far too many, of the key trained men who were necessary to run the whole government and the whole country. End in the end, Diem was overthrown and most unfortunately killed in November of 1963. But this internal ferment, which is still going on and throwing up what I think will be an increasingly nationalist and dedicated group of men to lead the government, is an entirely different thing than the Viet Cong movement supported from the North. We know who Diem's opponents were. Many are in exile. Many, indeed the key figures of the present government, were the opposition to Diem. Dr. ?inaudible? himself. The caravellist group. All these men, who are today at the core of the government,

these were the men who were opposed to Diem, the Viet Cong movement supported and given its main spring from the North, was and is an entirely different thing. And I think there are in fact about 1 or 2 insignificant figures in the opposition to Diem who have gone over to the Viet Cong, but no more. The 2 are quite different things. And that of course is part of the concern that is sometimes stated in the sense that this should be described as a civil war. Of course it's Vietnamese fighting Vietnamese. Just as it was Koreans fighting Koreans in the Korean war and we didn't think of that as a Civil War. The fact is, you have this phenomenon, I hope temporary, of divided countries and to attack across clear demarcation lines after they've been divided and while they're recognized and pending the processes that might lead to their reunification is just as much an aggression as an attack in an undivided country against another undivided country. There can be no doubt

about that in international law or any other basis. And that's why we've been on this job by the commitments made, carried out, and executed and approved in the appropriations by the congress under the President Eisenhower, by the decision of President Kennedy that we may have to increase our effort in November and December of 1961 in response to the growth of the threat. And by the series of decisions that President Johnson has made, finally being driven to the point in the face of the increased infiltration of attacking North Vietnam itself. Against military targets and as measured and serious and sober a way as you can possibly carry out a military campaign, but with a clear aim and intent of bringing pressure on the North to cease this aggression. No more, no less. And that is where we stand today. I won't take this time to go into the difficulties that exist. Of course it's a tough situation on the ground.

But by no means is it true that the Viet Cong- [audience chanting] Stop the war in Vietnam! [crowd commotion and chanting] [crowd commotion and chanting] [crowd commotion and chanting] [crowd commotion and chanting] Stop the war in Vietnam! Bring the troops home! Alright! Please- we're here- If everyone- [Repeated chanting] If everyone- if everyone will permit- [Repeated chanting] I ask everyone to remain seated! [Repeated chanting] I ask everyone to remain seated, and let's have an orderly- Let's have an orderly

meeting. [applause and commotion from audience] We're- we're gathered here for a discussion of the issues and it's important that we have that discussion. Now, everyone remain seated and if everyone will be calm, we will continue with the presentation by the Assistant Secretary of State. [applause] [crowd chatter] [crowd chatter]

[crowd chatter] [crowd chatter] Alright now, we will return to the- we will return to the presentation being made. Let me urge everyone, please, give your attention to the speakers. You may or you may not disagree with the views of either of the speakers. This is admitting for information for an understanding and it's important for everyone to have a clear understanding of what the policy of the administration is and it's important that everyone be in a position to understand

what criticisms may or may not be leveled and to think in terms of what, in your own mind, our policy should be after you've heard the discussion tonight. But I hope that we will proceed throughout the rest of the meeting in order and good manners and with respect for the views of everyone. Thank you. [applause] Mr. Bundy. [applause] I think you've got my speech. Didn't mean to. What's left of it. I think I left off at the point of saying that- [laughter] I could not take time to go into detail on the situation within South Vietnam at the present time. I cannot- I won't go into detail on the situation within South Vietnam, except to say that it is most emphatically not true that the Viet Cong control such expensive areas

or that the government is holed up in the cities or anything of that sort, that his thing cannot be reversed. In round numbers, we would estimate that the Viet Cong exercise something pretty close to real control. Even men with variations, they don't dare trust a reporter to go around without a battalion with him as the reporter for the Express has just testified in Paris. About 25 percent of the people, not more than that in any event. It fluctuates. And that they have the capacity for organized harassment in one degree or another, terror assassination, and I hadn't taken time to go into the whole nature of the fight it's been and the thousands of civilians as well as military people who've been killed. The officials that the all character of things of that sort with another 35 or 40 percent of the people. That kind of harassment is possible. But the government has a great many assets still. Uh, it is conducting this effort, I think the present government is starting to

become really effective bringing in provincial officials, getting a real spread of its of its authority in the sense of what it's doing through the countryside, working not of course, at all, only on the military front. But on the economic, social, and all the other fronts that go with what is in the last analysis a fight for the minds of people and I think in this fight, as I said, the evidence seems to me overwhelming that the great majority of the people have shown that they are, I don't say devoted to any government in Saigon at any one moment, but fundamentally anti-communist and ready to see this thing through if it can be done. And that, incidentally, is the verbatim conclusion of a very experienced and, as far as I know, totally nonpartisan Frenchman, General Both, who was reporting in Realite recently, having just gone back to the area after having served that during the war. The way they have suffered casualties, the way that refugee movements, when they've taken place, have been entirely from Viet Cong areas and the

government areas, the way that the people have not, despite all the intimidation of which the Viet Cong have been capable on a massive scale, ever evoted with their feet the other way, I think shows where the great majority of the people feel. Now today, we stand in a situation where we're applying with the South Vietnamese government military pressures against the North, where the effort is being pushed to its absolute maximum in the South and there's no doubt that that's where the war must be won. One must never lose sight of that and that's been the main focus of the efforts and the consultations that we've had in government this week, including the Honolulu conference from which I just returned. That's where you got to focus. And I think the job can be done if you stick with it. Now the other side of the coin, of course, is that we must leave no stone unturned to see if a honorable, peaceful settlement that will in the first instance,

secure an independent South Vietnam, and in the second look toward a time when North and South Vietnam can determine their relationships by peaceful means, including the possibility of reunification. That's what we're after. It's right fundamentally in the spirit of the 54 Accords. And we are looking for any opportunity to see whether that can be negotiated. And the president said, quite explicitly, that we would accept unconditional discussions at anytime. He underscored opposition further and spelled it out in his response to the appeal of the 17 nations led by Yugoslavia, repeating the willingness to engage in unconditional discussions. And if you compare our response with the responses which, we don't think have been made officially, but have been in the form of public statements by Hanoi and ?inaudible? I think you will see that theirs is not an unconditional response. That it sets up terms that in their first- that in their- in their very nature would not

produce the kind of independent South Vietnam, free to make up its own mind what its future should be but rather a South Vietnam that would inevitably form of an amish ten of them all and that there are still three conditions not always clearly defined sometimes the cessation of attack sometimes when paul and that was the abyss laws themselves said the other day the precondition position of both parties seemed to them really unacceptable and speaking of the american force so the negotiating or izzo and we're using every diplomatic channel open source or higher but so far i think it's fair to say that there has been no indication that the other side is ready to work toward any settlement that would not produce a nomination from the no no and i think they still think the tide is running marijuana and that's what's got to be a change before you can get the kind of balance in which negotiation and eventual peace in the country and america will be costs

no i was really kind of sweet for the area as a whole the president of course spoke at length on this the other day in union is one more speech and that's what of course we won't see a southeast asia which as great wealth as a matter of fact in a natural self sufficiency in most areas in food about an expanded and a lot of people and true that's a job we care much more about them here unfortunately essential job with security in which we are now and yet we would like to see cooperation between all peoples of that area including last at nine conditions he's for the peaceful development of that whole portion of the war we hope that they will associate themselves in a massive cooperative effort on their initiative with the un of course and we hope taking a leading part in setting this thing out and

with united states as the president has made here are prepared to contribute a very great lady in total investment in the area over a period of time so there is no doubt in what kind of southeast asia and what kind of age is a forestry but to get there you've got to face up to the facts of this aggression from north vietnam against the south which must be between that and i would only end with the president's words if north vietnam holds to this aggressive path as the president has said we will not be defeated we will not grow tired and we will not withdraw either openly or an opening this week he's been the pen thank you very much just

monday four yard at possession of the administration's policy we look forward and they have out there in the question period but to further elaboration on some of the points that would you have made that this time i should like to present to the westside that there's no there was a time when he was managing editor of the nation some years ago one who has been a doctor a journalist a reporter and i personally very much concerned with developing the

floor yesterday alaska from the time that he was appointed by president rosso directs the territories and alan possesses the united states and about the interior he was bigger concern without state and he later became the governor where he was instrumental in forging many farm running and liberal thousands he was instrumental in the fact that our legislature alaska for instance and i did when the first laws against discrimination in public places later he became the prime mover in the state and their goal was achieved and he was elected to serve in the united states senate as senator from alaska as a united states senator is voice has been heard and it is undertaking and the last

year and more analysis and critique of the senate floor of the administration's foreign policy and southeast asia in march of nineteen sixty four he delivered it just unavoidable and i didn't realize they should get out of it now in march nineteen sixty five year and i made a speech and i don't realize they should be at now it's b great thought great karen great attention at present your courageous member of the united states senate and

outspoken to american one i'm sure we're proud to welcome to manhattan's west side to present his heroes on the situation in vietnam it's been it's b

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again and again we have this update the hegelian you do is that you play on and played on us now the united nations' shaw which is very specific and i think because i think to understand the situation which is a united nations john

said the plot is that it has built about is that it is a continuance of which is likely to a date of the makers of international recent security law says entering mediation conciliation operation judicial so resolve a real agencies are ratings on these families of their own choice they're a different peaceful methods of approaching the situation non of which we follow all over are signatories to an interest to united nations charter and the situation is safe most of all as a nation we do nothing this and

finally we did not see the solution by mediation we do nothing this vision installation we did i think we did not think a solution but if we do nothing the solution dissolution process here we have a situation where the united states which is official position thank you and in the us that there's an all ellington simon mayhew laugh and why it is not surprising that vote now there was a commission was the point of that the city's gay themes that carried out and

that the mission was to go over then to india rose and and that was an all and the representative from india and that lasted a great number of violations on the united states law violation of the treaty when i see one and all that while it was not only a larger and more efficient we wear their official united states now when president johnson says the justification is action than three presidents have promised a viet nam and by god when the house and so that makes the third man is only too well let's take forceful the first one now which we ask the city

the pope and so when the ruins of soul is easy and we asked ourselves is about it all these prizes that we went in there this is not surprising while at

the idea of a question what their election was never officially never on the same scale at all and i think it's true that after the signing of the geneva that we all allies in southeast asia treetops and the united nations are in a battle to enable men who were about immigration and those other signatories of ceo or great britain france australia via the facilities and violent that really have a lot of that you know studio in fact some months ago i published in the fountains congressional record a list of the great financial military aid we give to pakistan and eight

hundred million dollars in military aid and a hundred thousand dollars in economic aid why do you do it it uses of it i mean is that mr luis lugo the fire the pope that american security

it's been that would be gone in the congo be gone all over the world and fighting these laws which of our lives no way i do not like the cruelties ruthlessness of any military assistance whether the of the left or the right whether the communist a fascist but the one way that if economists and political is our system the system of freedom as a

system they want it last wednesday it still supporting it became highly aggressive and jail time and the persecution of the artists who have literally nothing would've rippled which table and sent into exile and death now of what happened at once we try to do in those days

and the policies change from the beginning first as a lot of the one on the south vietnamese we can only know well how are you and then we have this fantastic views of the radon like who in which is smaller than the jets are infiltrated at an encampment of olive is just two hundred miles south of the dividing line the no so officially on in that environment that that's the one that they used the american weapons will likely get deleted american and as a result of that the next day this that they can use as an excuse this week to assess his use of the number sixty

it's b there was no connection between the two magic rabbit that there is integration know and understand that we didn't know what it was and humble image that an individual nature with our own making or one side of this fight the facts of history what was in the lonely and this was a way out and to date we're in various segments two months of bombing with the liberal eye we should spell the

pope johnson's life and then the rest of the previous administration policy of saying that they would only negotiate with the other week i was totally unrealistic because of cyber law larry could cost me so it might diminish the extent of the epidemic the chain of course this is still primarily a civil war vietnam in the second place emphasizing that there's got to be a sense well it is absolutely in violation of the human remains human remains divided interview you an

idea of how can you expect them to make these on those units has a fantastic blow riot who's making these days now the only thing we you down this or select as he carries a year ago your bill or you know when he was elected in his own right there were upset and those who in particular was me and he said it was possible and that he would take any nations are meeting of the human relations and see a solution that was not done us of using that to right barely four years ago the escalator was followed and those are the words that the escalating war with great danger or

cost the market and that is something we want to avoid at all cost the pope the fact of the matter is that the white man can often lead problem and it's certainly counts of life was led by consuming a generously give an unexploded an honest officials administer it which i think would go with the illinois might've succeeded now seventy billion dollars it's the war we and we

and i don't think we do that we send a million men over the war when they think of the new york times more than in homages and sent more dollars there and they invest a lot more lives we buy over the country militarily but what they want then what's the videos are we gonna live and that only has been exterminated the people in that we've also revered in the online later that the people of aids in africa it's b this one the pain recalling korea and of

substantial differences in the korean war reads this work in the first place are beginning which was not the case itself and the second place like they're under the mandate united nations and the purpose of fifteen other nations we're fighting side by side well and that the south koreans would fight those three factors of the president's situation we look at the correlation and in addition to that but the people of this village why haven't you been able to win the war and yet despite those differences in a moment a great priority of one of the american people when i said i will go to korea and if instead president johnson says now at the same time it's you it's

been i pray for this statement a position on this very vital issue which confronts as we well we bottle and learning differences in fact between the senator's history in mind i just want to touch on one or two fundamental kinds one is the question of the provision for elections in nineteen fifty six the

position that the south vietnamese government is adequately describe in these violent acts manner and the locals january nineteen fifty five after interviewing sam as sam was quite clear that the agreement is there an extent that elections are to be free and then his account goes on that and said everything now depend on how free elections or the fire the one way to see whether the conditions for freedom would exist and north vietnam in the hospital for the election wells is going to be received release date i think we can all find ourselves with that an agreement with that description of what is involved in a free election whether in this country or in asia

the situation was and the explanation why they're shouting free elections here that no time make any gestures and the police you know vi e on it in culver city for his nineteen fifty six of the situation that he was describing to his own party one is really sure we attacked a land owning families indiscriminately deporting no consideration for those who would serve the revolution and those families with sons in the army we show

known for landlords despite in the resistance reading that children in the same way as we did jordan the motherland we made too many deviations executed in my honest people and seeing an undeserving are resorting to tell which became fodder widespread many are and raisins inhabited by minority tribes with the technology is too strong and song so long and so the fact is very simple there was no possibility of free elections and north vietnam in nineteen fifty six as a simple explanation it's consistent with the position and with the position so that i think is quite honestly i would say one other thing even if that were

all yunus has not been entitled to reject free elections is not being capable of being part of the law that would never have justified on the course to aggression engaged in by the north in nineteen fifty nine at least i should have gone back to ensure that the prisoner certainly agents an assassination that would never be just thought that the case of korea or nine united racing nations resolution calls for access by united nations and some electoral process and the norms and so the north has made not just to carry them out without any of you here tonight say that that's justified south korea we're going on our support in attacking the moral to recognize things what they are and this is immigration

then in beijing and the sending of man and the sending of a couple of the evidences but only shows it and it is any violation by us military manpower provisions of the nineteen fifty four holes our provision of military equipment was authorized specifically on people's reports on a rotational basis and was regularly report it's based on now it is true that in november nineteen sixty watt after this north vietnamese africa been and false claim to really and after it was beginning to constitute a viable threat to the government itself vietnam that government requested and we see the additional mr in the form of advisers helicopter pilots other forms of assistance which i don't think were ever

in the slightest degree conceal from the american people in any way we went for when that effort and president kennedy issued a very clear statement in december of nineteen sixty one in explaining that because of the wholesale violation of the law in an aggressive fashion seeking to support another step we were no acting at the request of the government of south vietnam and in its defense you consider ourselves believed that these nurses not put it to you that it is perfectly clear hold the aggressor was on this historical city nobody know about that aggression and then you can be no doubt that all international law itself this so i don't see

any law it did not realize until it became clear that the infiltration and attacks including attacks but not a political effect of people asked having such a vital for i think the only thing that it not work or that's the history of this thing on this point we're not trying to do anything i repeat what materiel i would love to believe that this could've been on the train years ago animal gesture by north vietnam that that that i would love to believe that it could have been negotiated a novel way that would preserve the independence and freedom to determine their own future of the people of south vietnam the overall sense that i simply don't think that the evidence we have a new now this spoke with want to be constantly alert to the possibility of the changes that would permit an honorable so we should leave most dominant

that the fundamental position is that we must go ahead doing what his wizened measured simply to compel a cessation of aggression and not for any other purpose and this is what we're going to do fb well it's very clear that the fact is that when we send helicopters and advisors who want to become a people and planes and all kinds of other weapon we were in violation of the geneva agreement ha ha we can it

changes the rules simply because they didn't want activists who stop what we now think is the advance of china why don't we say so when i'm with the american people all excuses have changed and changed and changed and that seems to leave it up to date or whatever maybe china's purpose and it's perfectly understandable that the chinese should expect to have a very considerable say as to what happens in the future of southeast asia just as we would not for a moment to make the chinese pavilion and tell us what happened at mexico and central america that nests the pain i know all that meat and i have no sympathy with the brutality of the voluntary announcement leaves you know of an

hour on their loans but i think the basic reality is that we have no business in the point heritage is that their way of life and for us to go in there and i think that we can do whatever maybe oddly expressed intentions determine their fate is falling and so it's going to be settled down and other navies a very cruel performances and of denver a group of lawyers and the red sox and when you bomb people notice the un and how alleged participants the

pope now when president johnson says of the one reality of the situation is that not yet then has the facts i'll get their business out of a change of policy that we have we're changing our future we're changing out of vacation and we're now taking over the world to get ourselves and it is not going to solve the problem that you that it's much more difficult for us to get out of the matter and now that it would have been a year ago but i still think we should make every effort to stop the killing in the first thing we should do it for the economy at least to stop the bombing of north it's b as the administration the lead up to the time of the

johns hopkin's speech that we had no one to negotiate with and we could negotiate and with generous said that we had to negotiate from strength what we've demonstrated i think would demonstrate just thanking the air to demonstrate us they can say what we want we have a show i think so now there's one more thing that hadn't come up in the main part of the bay and that is that the basic justification i noticed that money or less pushed aside temporarily the domino theory but the domino theory advanced also invariably and without any exception all the spokesman the administration and the domino theory that originated by secretary john foster dulles was a day for viet nam fell all the other cells in the nation for the philippines and australia the new zealand and we are reviving formal on the beaches of a y and olive oil

at their say what might happen to southeast asia i think it would be almost impossible for us a low for a part of the kind of separation and i don't think we should try to do what when you got off into the pacific we have complete control is not true as a rice farmer writes vote next tuesday and although the city will become a red c seven for me what about him and the sample any attempt to invade or spray on new zealand if i asked of course we would do and that would be a defense i would justify be willing to fight because in that case louie coming to the area of race relations in this poses is that not to be overrun it's

been so that i think the domino theory that bees got a little bundle them worry about tolerance on the top and the answers leno said that we don't want to add more we won't if we had some kind of negotiated peace and the cry would go up that becomes violent immediately and they're idiots well i think i don't know i think you'd get in there that now that kind of deal with socialism communism

that we invested two billion dollars to set up a new idea use this route in the first place the situation would be very different those people don't want to be counted by the chinese what our policy is very likely to bring in the chinese because then they knew our common concern that the lesser of two evils and once the chinese get it maybe the mau mau actually although we have modern much about china and the president says johns hopkins each day since the uk today the chinese have shown a singular so they would've made me that that is the best of the situation we're in their body down in a costly war losing american lives and about just one of billions of dollars fighting a small they should be held to a standstill by a small asiatic nation and emphasizing the great difference between the white west and the olivier and that's not good

for us not good for the image of the world and i think the rest of us if we pull out anyway the result we did better than when we stay at which can only withdraw and instead of accelerating law with more montanans on both sides and ultimately a stalemate and the settlement at the peace table it goes by we're not a withdrawal by the united states from vietnam lend support to begin view that useful for justice has ever paid less obvious is a betrayal of communist agents and oddly as well back down when confronted with four

well i don't know the psychology of the government is we have gotten so the situation and i think it's off now than it was before i think it would've been easy i don't think now we've got to have some kind of today's i think it'd be very difficult mr cliff your friends and others as a betrayal of our promises promises of the nonprofit i was nothing in those promises that prevents us from trying to negotiate a settlement and i think that's what we should do i think the time at the end of them said well as governor this is no more the people themselves if you read that line sometimes going on policy and the

king of denmark you realize i was with one then another government tomorrow when the attack and the us don't know at that time whether there are probably a lot of the beats now i don't want to create some time ago he was up and i think their voices are rising all over the country and this is not building the president has indicated the essentials of the nineteen fifties or geneva agreements to these essentials and collections and saltwater citizen guarantees with the administration insist upon the question of eight future relationship and north and south vietnam including the possibility that reunification is one that is covered in the reply we make of a

sudden a non aligned nations and in which we said northern south vietnam to determine their future relationships who you support me now that'll inevitably brings up the question of free elections in the future i think our historic position in korea and germany has always been that we went in principle they were fiercely divided countries express that will free election year i think the i think the question frankly must come are down the line statements that we laid out only seventeen has a cessation of aggression on our military action would become unnecessary south vietnam to determine its own future status government without external interference then we would be in a position to withdraw forces if not entirely at least on the middle levels of the geneva agreements and fifty knots in south vietnam of the time in their relationship and that it says it means that would have to fall

as you were born so and i think it's quite easily as north and south vietnam i'd like to include this question of free elections and it would still include the same question that roosevelt quotation i get of whether the conditions for such elections in the true sense of avoidance of terrorism not simply have to watch an election day exist in a truly communist state sen bunning is a precondition for negotiations should stop their current activity before negotiations and i think it would be extremely difficult spot says a widespread popular movement you're right on the art of

the president's base and i think it's important that matter which did not understand how it got that way and the recently when al weighs in and that they will which i consider to be unconstitutional it's been the weight loss and fears that you visit the lawyer on monday the university law school the news of the incident or

now it is true that it was a brewery as a while and they lived at the onion bills and then they repeat the boat and attacked me at and the next day and i think robert but unfortunately the resolution went far beyond that as for lack of a real loud use the armed forces anywhere in southeast asia i don't feel lonely i

think many of them now paul and i think the absence of the situation there's a lot of stopping it wrong is based on a novel that at least the summary now what's not thousand and experiencing the past and the psychologist at least it's not intensify to the final as llewelyn the bees well senator let me ask a question which we gather secretary one thing i'll do you justify engaging in a non ratified an undeclared war that's exactly right the congress has been vague essentially a

lawyer twenty years ago that's lawyer so i won't have to speak with expertise but i do think it's very considered opinion of the rage aria constitutional lawyers look at this issue with all respect to senator morse take for instance but i know it's not the same as usual and there are the president and that that was simply underscore and emphasize with respect to the situation in southeast asia by the congressional resolution which signed agreements spoken which was passed overwhelmingly in both houses specifically those longhorns

so they do and in effect that the viet cong when the civil war in vietnam he made a democratic nation why do you think there could be free elections were no other communist countries have free elections well it's never been a free nation and i just never really relate to you know our sense of the word and i don't think we should expect and that i think you're going to get the kind of people around there is no deal i feel that way

ryan reviews the last year last century and forrest who consider the imperialistic policies of president mckinley no no and they manifest destiny was the watchword we all and redefine of this victim said the us government would have the people a staple of the government which means that for themselves before you it's b so i mean if we can live without mistakes

in eastern europe why can't live without mistakes in southeast asia european states now the nomination faces the european states so emotional nation led to a threat to europe and had to be met by the whole nato alliance and buy it massive military and economic benefits starting in the marshall plan and nato the hall that may bring this really believe indications of change in st paul what i say is if you can do the job before you reach that landed

her in asia and the threat to india and other areas the communist domination in southeast asia would represent you have a much less difficult job to do so you get this that you have to face further down the line and their greater goals the pain senators raised a question asking the next question certainly that this if we stop fighting in vietnam wouldn't we fight in thailand malaysia or the ol ball wasn't it

and i support of serbian now that we supported for years ceo and offensive dictator were murdered his opponents the recent rotating governments if not been freely elected he's there have never been elections or any real freedoms as we've been cited for while we speak i would go halfway with what senator lieberman said in response to an earlier question that you simply cannot expect a new nation to emerge in one instance democratic thing some even have only happened i think in the newer countries only wear in india and malaysia there had been a really thorough job of preparation and that was not the situation in the successive states and china specifically in vietnam

but alexei and that is yemen was not one quarter of that immigration as an oy vey by day the postman as suzanne maybe these guys know why this weather nation use the exchanges as south vietnam prove and as new as it is increasingly wanting

to play this season volunteers outline never get through this job fair to say that was because economists say the united states why is saturday the pain well the economy isn't where the world

wanted there to be i think every year supporting dictators as beijing and they show the law says the us is to have freedom civil liberties which regards is a better system i think i think the example of the city and southeast asia to violence in that direction i think that at the time when there were growing very well a lot of oil oh boy in nineteen seventy nine right right this would represent about a

system that didn't know they were the lady and not to stop this mass arrests of doctors says part of the va and our elements of them involving about is how we weakened our own base commanders both tactics and consequently it's only a question of degree as it would seem to the people of the victims to be worse as secretary rice's comment on china's well specifically a concept that this area and evidently want journalists fear of themselves first as to china's role of the not so the question i'm a specific role in the inmate aggression against south vietnam which in specific terms i think is going to be consistent with supplying arms now we don't have much evidence of any

directive because only recently dr rubens this is true of ninety percent of the equipment that move up about two hundred and fifty weapons that just haven't that right now what a question whether chinese communist whether this is an effect chinese dynasty of influences of their vision actually historically even that isn't a true statement in terms of political domination for most of the last thousand years and there were areas in the past in communist china dominated iran the map that you see of their ambitions they will certainly implode but it is not true of the historic state but even if it were i should have thought that the kind of world where privacy and that in

fact seems just that would be oh courses nationalism self determination smaller nations are rising the fusion of our responsibility is a kind of world that we believe will be much more peaceful and much more responsive to be desires of individual in these countries if it is not in the old fashioned four of series of them i think that concept in essence is the very kind of thing that we want to prevent in europe what do you say a lot of life and it's the same concept that we fought in asia when it was being represented by a greater prosperity is fear of the military leaders of japan oh really there's been a lot less to the senator i think we'll let the senate

answer and then as a secretary to answer the question do you believe we could negotiate peace with what he had no without the participation of the vehicle i do not think we got i think vietnam is the year and i think the negotiations should be with a vietnam the pope flaw in the administration's mass which declares that johns hopkins that hanoi is close it regularly and that's why we're going in the loyal clientele what actually is this is much more a civil war and the usual whats yours

i'm afraid the facts that we can get leaders to the conclusion that the liberation front which is the political name is entirely or for all practical purposes at least the top of a panel and that panel is the operating on a crate there was bombing as you suggest there be any reasons to be my gender the point so there are number of questions which are

we have which are somewhat similar so i'm going to ask you please explain exactly how united states security will be adversely affected the constant as that happens is that i would think or i would think very clearly that a communist agent which would necessarily be pretty cohesive i would be a tremendous threat to our security in that ambition would not be inclined to asia and that all contact between us and asia would be pretty effectively cut off horror long time now these situations libby lewis the

peak i was a marketer the senator you're sent to vietnam as no real military importance for us please explain well i don't know the pride and the explanation i just think that it has no more important than say the congo i think this is a remote area i figured out we are separated from it by a vast pacific region and a few jokes i don't think it is what did the secretary why not only advice about

this right and others who suggested blue who suggests we try oh wow all right with the expectation that they would be riskier it is that's it you see if we thought it would do hear that kind of signal that on a possibly just the rivers at this stage it leaves them without excluding the possibility of this happening in the future of our conclusion is that it would give the wrong signal leads the lawyers only weakening or what we can and best lead away from any possibility of

negotiations york times and i think we must create the last senator reid in the first time and then the secretary since the possibility of defense has been mentioned do you well i would like to see a cease fire an issue bias of song other side when a peacekeeping the united nations want to the time he was a united arab republic in israel woodstock some of morrison's and we had temporarily the congo might not certain whether time it wants to stop the killing and there's a

period of relative cessation of war why i think it's far more likely that you'll get the question was what the united nations the participation of an easy and i'd say i think it was a video of this point i don't see a united nations role in india to enable united nations but it can now and in the last week a noted i don't see a role in restoring the situation but i do see a very real possibility of a role in the kind of way that the senators are policing a situation that has been restored and

here's a question as the administration and served the rest of russia and china to reconsider this very seriously indeed and it certainly is something the way if not it should turn into a more serious form which what we hope it will not up to this point i think it's fair to say that reading would be that that possibility and opposition seems to be integrated i think we have to wait well top policy will not want to take on all the years of much of

our policy is very unlikely producers of no scientists come in question regarding breast vietnam as to when you criticize the congress an interesting response what about press censorship on american response the pain suddenly instance which is reported in the express our economy express articles for more on the debt plan said they wouldn't take him around because they have

the time was going you illustrate the degree of control it actually prevails even in areas considered to be their identity that article one way or the other it was just a big statement and relevant to the question of degree of control now as lauren price policies we been working very hard to get the facts available to the press as history as bob an expert on this rivers which is purely and simply military security and to protect the lives of our men and the vietnamese

engaged in combat operations at the law that's a great line well security this revelation has been surprising during the years of use that great detail and in fact as president kennedy you imagine

so removing then walk and then the day not just the facts as he sees them costs understandable those who they were as possible the phrase i think those of new orleans dating or relationships

what should the united states government to south vietnam was attacked by a full scale military invasion of communist china and i wonder if i might collect unemployment doubling back just for a second on this question of the press i think there's a good deal of justice and once david halberstam and others said about the first two years ago and more and that was entirely simply cannot get the idea of the kind of true we believe in even worse situation

i'm going to live or that except to say i'm referring to the period of at least the last year or more at the access to land military operational base you can recite it any instance in world war two and the operational act or any other day but it was on land and access and freedom to let them know what these restrictions are purely and simply operation and they are the apartment is necessary to protect the line so the question is why

is our city present time are the right things i think we would have to weigh all kinds of responses and i think to be most fun wasn't me to speculate on what the center as president as bad as the

oil if we really want to save your job oh boy i think that prison cell and with that thing which was we also dont recognize in connection with southeast asia in the past that allows conference and sixty one who originated and i don't think that doesn't carry her about delivering more questions raised bigger and

i'd like to hear with general policy rather than specifics disintegrating what proposals would you make concerning economic development programs or southeast asia sixty one right right economic good education most successful we haven't been able to find the people the people and all these cases those people in the book about themselves were the two things up president johnson

the pittsburgh it's busy the use of nuclear weapons were before the asian one day negotiating with communist china the next and then some vaguely defined scheme of bombings by lines that but assuming that he was talking about the latter all i can say is this is something that they do a great many other people as a necessary in on or possibly necessary measure it is

does the climate of opinion to congress today as part of the day was why in god's not a far east years ago you know thank you

the piece the wall i'm going to be