Speaking of Ideas; Harrison Salisbury - interview on international affairs

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and you have been listening to push is the first two movements of the city and sweet coffee and see it would fund the moto directed the st louis symphony orchestra i don't know our process can no longer be viewed in terms an ideological struggle between russia and her allies and the united states backed by the democratic forces of the west just as to go

is putting the lie to the notion of a monolithic western bloc so communist china yugoslavia and other deviation estimations are demonstrating their own forms of nationalism within the communist will probably know a journalist is more well informed of the changing trends and loyalty is behind the iron curtain that is harrison salisbury assistant managing editor of the new york times mr salisbury is a former chief of the times' moscow bureau and makes periodic journeys to russia he's the author of russia recently published by macmillan is interviewed by michel cries out of radio new york world wide that assault rate drops we might just look back over the past year and look at the balance sheet as far as impressions go do you believe that we are ahead or behind them that when i say we have a stalker first of those soviet and

chinese communism is again or as of the last four the worldwide movement that has stopped at least a it's a past statements to bring communism more generally to the world why i think quite clearly it's been a blast you're forty of western part of the world the russians have been preoccupied all year long with two things one their own domestic affairs which are extremely complicated they're trying to clean up many of the messes that they got into a crucial and with their very difficult relations with communist china the chinese are largely occupied with their quarrel with the russians and such an extension of their influence and authority as they are able to achieve outside their borders but it's been the year of setbacks in that department stores are concerned meanwhile so far as we in the west are concerned

it's been a fairly quiet year or perhaps it seems odd to say when we had a deep commitment in the ground but outside of that particular area it seems to me that western influences been on the rise its own in europe in spite of many differences among the have parties in the nato alliance there has been no notable crisis on balance it seems to clearly the advantage has been to us in the last moment some observers who have commented that some early on on the developments of the past year have expressed concern that the vietnam affair the war in vietnam and that the growing involvement of the united states mike to reverse that trend at least it might cause the chinese and the russians and the cold war in a more virulent form a more threatening what is your comment on this question i don't really think that's a likely to happen i think that we

are that it's a obviously were engaged in a very lengthy a contest or competition record what you will know we chinese communism for influence on the asian continent and at the moment the corpses matter seems to be him as south vietnam war in vietnam generally southeast asia however there are at least three parties to this conflict and perhaps for where the chinese are cells are the russians an indonesian powers richard we sometimes seem to overlook and then i can see that the continuance of the vietnam the affair is going to have an extraordinary influence on that to contest generally i personally believe that if we could liquidate in one way or another it would the enormous benefit to us in pursuing our overall policies in asia because it would read ios of an embarrassment in

relations with asian cars and when the soviet union to a very large extent the soviet names in our own way and those of asia generally and i am thinking particular indian this respect accord sides of our stability in asia as concert halls of china are on the other side of attempting to undermine regime than cause trouble and so long as the vietnam thing goes on it's very difficult force to achieve joint mousse with use of the powers although it was in fact achieved in the case of the conflict between pakistan and india at which it isn't notable even in times such crisis that day that these three forces he only the west russia and the more moderate asian powers did stand them or less together in that particular dispute which might well become a major war i think this is an example of what could be achieved

perhaps if the rebound thing can be settled by law said don't see any train indication eric cantor many people who observe the situation along the borders the northern borders of india since it came out and the chinese ultimatum which came under very difficult point in that struggle between pakistan and india earlier this year the back down by the chinese still was interpreted by many as indicating that the chinese were the paper tigers that they so frequently accuses the united states of being that they either did not have the power to support their ultimate well i don't know that i would except that interpretation doesn't seem to me the chinese backed down to the chinese were doing a perfectly obvious thing they were attempting to stir up more trouble in an already troubled situation and that when it became apparent to the chinese at their pakistani new core was going to be resolved i say resolve the sense of being deaf and down the ultimatum that they had been delivered there was really meaningless if they

have if they're fellow is not going to fight there was no particular reason for them to fight and without him but the trouble is not yet over up there and sick him is as we've noticed only in the last couple of days the head chinese have again been making a menacing hand movements along that frontier i would anticipate that the chinese will play this cat and mouse game along that frontier for years and that almost any moment they may predicts precipitate a new crisis in that area of the world are a strictly as a matter of pressure politics but i get back to some of these individual issues surge in just a moment but i'd like to look at that communism soviet union and china as it appears inside the united states you have had the responsibility over the past several years for the national coverage of the times and in the course of a dirt covered in recent months of the demonstrations both for and against american policy in vietnam

the subject of common isn't very word itself bolshevism perhaps preceding it because people out to see red as well as to read during those ensuing years or we're seeing and fearing read more or less that day in the united states has the a american populace become more accustomed to this to the fear where losing or winning what's your interpretation well i don't know that my interpretations are turning violent there because in order to answer your questions and one would have to travel quite widely out to around the country and the reactions of ordinary people i have been out on several trips in recent months and i must say that i haven't noticed any year startling rising concern about the domestic situation in the country other is the other is at hand there is a lot of attention and interest in me demonstrations against the war and he now because after all this is a critical issue

many people have to have an involvement in it to parents have sons who are in the counseling have sons who are not in the ground so that today you hear a good deal of discussion about that but i don't today hear it related to communism particular i think this is causes rather than natural because the curious thing about to the whole youth moment if you could call it that in this country which is their manifest their first you know in a major way in the civil rights struggle and then it says shifted or some extent of the non thing has been weak the resolute action which the participants have sort of marched away from me the organized coming as the communist just don't seem to have any roll a try his museum trying and their lands trying to together a piggyback ride on some of these things but for the most part be the actors have no interest whatsoever in your stereotype communist movements they have what they call the new left i was very wild eyed and rampant and very difficult to

understand exactly what it constitutes habitat i think they regard to communist is terribly square this is a word that communism and the fears that are so many people have of communism both domestically and internationally as you indicated earlier outside of the united states seems to have declined somewhat although somewhat although revolution goes all others a turbulent changer sometimes if we feel that the people tend to mix up the word revolution in the war communism and perhaps a this might be behind some of the fears that some people express about communism isn't coming as was last frost in this way it definitely has i felt that for a long long time in fact i felt literally a sound world war to the communist movement as a international lucian air force was really dead it was said was purely a manipulative thing at that time and an extension or an arm of soviet foreign policy i thought it was extremely

notable are living in a world war two that the only places were communism came into power were places that were occupied by the red army was only in eastern europe which was occupied by soviet troops chemistry regimes were installed and when they attempted to extend their influence elsewhere if you're on their periphery iran as an example here again as soon as the soviet troops were pulled out the cameos movement fell apart are there were threats increase grillo war that was conducted but as soon as the border was sealed off so that the military forces couldn't come in from the outside that was dampened down to in other words in the moment is shown any external lack of vitality and moving abroad and to other countries we could say well what about china china has been a hit almost an indigenous several sherry moment is a communist but from there very earliest times it has been a kind of communism that they've they brewed in their own or ice kettles as it were they've

they've adapted its various tactics and things to chinese conditions then we see the fruit of that today in the deep from principled split between these two movements the chinese and the russians it's so hard to find today evidence of any outward thrust of communism in its cryptic be hard if you go to moscow eye you'll find probably no place in the world where there is less interesting world revolution in moscow you're desperate to dispatch again yesterday about the old soviet voted to tango to have again had composed that poem we know the where he had cast aspersions on the commonest a youth movement very openly and i think the support certainly did and i must say that a volley of all it did bureaucratic structures that i know of the communist youth movement is probably mia the dentist and then this is the despair really of me and of the elderly bolshevik the founding fathers as it were they can understand these characters who have no interest in this cause and to say oh i love that one says

let's get on with the rock n roll or something interesting might be communism was too successful at one point in the earlier years of following the bolshevik revolutionaries are being identified with the soviet union specifically so that the end of that two degree we're not when the initial they swore off the attachment that there were communism had to an alien government or do you think that had a factor was a factor in the end and destroying mistrust i think there's something in it and i think also that we get back your original question about the you know the identification of revolution and communism as being one in the same thing that we're close to getting at the key of it sank it so happened that a group of radicals came into power in russia in nineteen seventeen more was accidentally and they have a doctrine that they called common as it was in the very thoroughly formulated doctor when they came into power making a new particle a very accidental fashion to be honest but once they got into power in order

to enhance their authority into the tent to spread rumors know the country since they were convinced they could never will power in russia unless all of europe went over to these new doctrine they began to shout from the roost rooftops of this was communism and coming and might take over the world well ms jenny because outsiders are critically in place distant like america where we had no real we don't know what this is all about what was a bolshevik there's a wild eyed man with scraggly hair and with a bomb in his hand that was our question and we identify these two things are coming as a revolution is somehow forgot that revolution is a process which is always going on in the world in one place or another we hasn't been he's ourselves and that's one of the reasons why we yes it's a good country here in russia have been the french are having the germans the italians and the japanese and the chinese this is a normal human process a very difficult one about it is not to be regarded as

as soon as a synonym for communism not by any means the calmness of attempted deliberately to appropriate this the term revolution and i think it's about time we grab the word back from that because i don't think they're doing very much about these is that somehow made the odious ogre sounding comparison calling some of these early of bolsheviks apostles in a way that that their christianity itself is seeded a western europe but with the us parcels of christ are these apostles were a measurably more successful over these a communist the apostles i wonder why this is muddy pig well i think this is at a key there is that there's a certain parallel their arm when you get the right you get a year of doctrine which is in may be brought into life by a charismatic leader and that supposedly on lenin certainly was a great example of that it didn't live very long in his own country and goodness knows what would have

happened if he'd gone on what sort of a system that would have come out with but then he died and then a whole succession of different sorts of men began to propagate dawkins in his name as it were and that we have today all sorts of variations of this thing and then the more time goes on the more the different one from each other so the tether wonders really not that we have so many divergent views within the communist world but the fact that they had been able up to now to maintain is some semblance of unity urging the so called care each year there is less of it but there is still a certain amount of it oh it's only a matter of time i think that the disunity in the communist rule be as well recognized as disunity in say the christian world or the medieval they would recognize it was just assumed that the fact that people have more or less certain versions of maurice's same darkened didn't mean politically in the sense of thinking of this

the dissolution of their unit a victim at one time have existed we're witnessing a such a great diversity of disunity in the commonest world that they're perhaps a look at their individual cases here mike to be in order the first one who abandoned the ship so to speak was a marshal tito back in the forties and now seriously ill and aging about dirty survive that very tricky operation in those days and he has been followed by others in one way or another i wonder if you could give us a bit of the background and the color of the some of these differences based in eastern europe well i think that the others one common factor that runs through the mall at which was not immediately perceptible mckay city to what has become very pronounced and said that's nationalism it joe was an unusual example coming as i said earlier that only in countries of the red army occupied coming has become the power it is true that the red army occupied you saw him but it is also true that teach only have a very active and vigorous parties

and communist movement throughout the war witch help are in large areas you saw in spite of italian and german occupation so that the writer making him to join his party's and communists shared the takeover in immediately have moved as damaged cells in power without any interregnum of military rule so in a sense of economists came to power in yugoslavia more or less by their own efforts and with a valid going organization as a result of this they had a great deal of independence and of course anyone who knows me a yugoslav character whether their coats or their servers or so means no these are very independent about those people and they always have been very proud and very proud of the regime that they set up under tito am proud of the fact that they had cheated themselves and all this was national pride and they happen to be calmness but they were proud as any service would be or any clothes or any

starlings of their achievements there was another variant gordon factor so far as to whose ability to demonstrate independence and this was the lack of a director geographical connection between the soviet union and yugoslavia because of the they're coming as to accompany him to power the red army withdrew from it was obvious was not on the ground there so that in nineteen forty eight when tito to be bearing step filing came to a conflict with stone says it was a conflict over independence national independence stone wanted to go to toe the line and stand to eat you wouldn't do it aarti do was able to survive because essentially and the russians couldn't get any they didn't have any troops on the ground to do it they would have had to wage full scale war across the borders of the country and they did in fact move tanks right up to the border of yugoslavia and the issue hung in the balance and the attempted coup d'etat when you knew a sloppy it failed and liquid that trigger stalin who in many ways was a very

cautious man win when confronted with what looked like determined opposition pulled back in and then decided he could start to use saws out well thanks largely to our very issued policy of giving to join the support so that he could survive he did survive and he became the model of the independent communist he then daring actually attempted to to proselytize in the balkans he wanted others to to choose his route but for a long period time low stone is alive that he had no contact with the other countries because they were all compelled to break off relations and severed their economic connections and that sort of thing with teach your butt listeners down died in conditions begin to relax and be a new soviet regime embarked on a generally liberal policy at home and begin to insist on the same sort of singin in the satellite countries the underlying

conditions that you produce tito begin to produce of the moka for example in poland who who came into power or as a product of polish nationalism essentially he was a communist that he had been imprisoned by other candidates and when the showdown came between noah himself and khrushchev soviet tanks so only a few miles more so he stood up and said he would fight and the polls would fight the russians if they actually move on the capital and the russians backed off and so cold one is certain measure of independence because or jihad geography she didn't win as much as it killed it but she got her major what's the same thing happened in hungary in a more violent and dramatic manner it was crushed but here the interesting thing has been that over the years since the crushing of the hungarian revolution but the hungarians under their own communist leader cod are have developed largely independent of government which it prides itself in its independence of soviet policy and its innovation and all that sort of thing it's gone ahead even poems or that you see

this must far from from very deep roots the seeds of national independence are not there i stamped out by the imposition of communist just want us to take our for one point they're y m beaver the degree structure used to crush the american revolution and now the other the polish a revolution a milder wanted of course jesus' wife the essential difference was first a polish one came first and they settled it on the basis of compromise the poles did not threaten to leave the warsaw pact they're willing to stay in the packed but they didn't work and did what their national independence in the case of the wood depressing events ramp too quickly and they really got out of hand and the end of the year the hungary ends almost popped completely out of the bloc they were abandoned the warsaw pact they were ready to establish themselves into a position and this would have brought the whole him alliance crumbling down and i think that the major consideration there was a military

wasn't the general said if we let hungry paul are called so western defense line is not no you cannot permit this to happen i suspect that was a major consideration that no one will know until the archives are open and then we made and now we have three other of so called satellites romania or czechoslovakia bulgaria areas that are proud so too little known in the west at least and in the united states as being different one from another and yet quite different and therefore actually because you left out that mostly for all albanians only doubled an enclave within the first break away or four years later just you know our idea was take ten seconds of ikea and carrying and the mania a bulgarian is in a sense the one which has been most resistant to change or any effect in their relations within the bloc and i think this is because again is due to nationalism in history both area has always been russia's little brother and the relationship has been intense

and national anthem and ethnic and cultural and i think that these are the basic reasons why there's been very little movement there away from this relationship also it may simply be more remote was culturally advance there is sort of a stage of development that to these countries go through maybe was eventually they were very in sweeping up in the case of the checks it's notable that they are very quiet and very conservative people and sometimes and at the remarkable things without anybody noticing it one of the things that they have achieved in recent years has been a great deal of independence in their direction of their affair is a great deal of innovation may operation other communist system without anybody really pay much attention to this which is the czech way of doing things i would think that their economic system is perhaps and more advanced in western terms that is to say we stand rigid in itself communist applications of any of these two countries

and that it may well be the country that regular news will be coming up from wind in the next few years the romanians there are an excellent example of how our national considerations really move a country that remains of had a grudge against the russians and serve well so i guess since the answer to the underworld were to have before that because the russians it took over a slice of romanian territory this arabia territory would show many of feels that she could ill afford to have to lose and go and the russians are not notable for returning territory this hardly noticed factor that has been and strong alibi think in causing the iranians to move away into a very independent position between the chinese and the russians also her being persistent conference an economic nature heralds the russians have tried to force remains and what i would call a bulgarian

mall it wanted to be a largely agricultural country remains are very proud of their industrial development they regard themselves as opposed to western europe in eastern europe they think that they are caressed is more like paris than any other eastern european place in fact more than any other capital they're proud of their latin culture and then they feel that the russians are crude and rude and undeveloped people and what they've been attempting to cross them back into the balkans songs worries that their role is is far in advance all these things are for our subject of a national nationalistic and yet very important factors and moving his country into its more independent position for we cover the other it to areas of eastern europe the development inside the soviet union of the day great industrial base plus of course continuing agricultural problems that has made the soviet union it seems less dependent upon eastern europe from the standpoint of the manufacturing words and natural

resources is is it's a factor that has provided this change to take place you know i don't really think that's true trial of the soviet union has developed its industry and its bases no uncertain thing and they are still highly dependent on eastern europe for many products particularly other quality manufacturers' this is true of love the products that they get from czechoslovakia or from eastern germany in particular decides stem from poland they're dependent our foreign exchange of foodstuffs was only other countries and this is at the root of many of the goal is romania and hungary and the and the the general state of soviet soviet economy is always such that the attempt even while are seeking perhaps to ameliorate eastern european apprehensions by giving a hand gary and more food stamps or something like that they really attempt to impose upon them unfair economic cup treaties only this fall for example nevada ne of

czechoslovakia made two trips to moscow in which he attempted with all parties persuasion to i got the russians to agree to an overall economic arrangement in which all eastern european countries would participate with the russians and the reason for this was quite clear to me it eastern european countries would have more bargaining power they all work together and also they would be able to establish their own economies more securely if they each of them were able to establish sort of interchange relations among each other the russians refused that they want to bargain independently with each one the country's in separately and the obvious reason for is so that they can put the screws this comet come of this eastern european version of the common market then you have indicated is not really something that the soviets or want to become an equal partner in any way they want to use it for their own advantage is no question about it

and this is the this is the great weakness of that system the eastern european countries can see major advantages for themselves if they have the right wing party you may news pulled out of that thing for the same reason that is bothering a body they felt that they had there been subject to unfair assignments and arrangements and they just refused to agree to a common marketeers of western europe please take note that half a half ahead of the other two areas which are which are of importance of course because of what they for both for the future the east german experiment thorough failure or whatever one might call it and just recently on it can cross these memoirs of the spy that was shot by the russians who reputedly had there been of such data the west has stated that khrushchev backed down on signing a separate peace treaty entering the berlin crisis and sixty one because he actually i didn't have or didn't want to use the force required east germany silently apparently has been making a great economic progress however

even though many of its people are said to be unhappy with the mission and how would you assess this well i think it's a very tricky thing to assess it's true that there has been economic progress made but these things are relative and mia and the disparity between eastern and germany and western germany is still so great the contrasts are so sharp the actor as difficult for me to believe that these junior eastern germans her too happy with me a steak in their regime it seems to me that eating journey politically as there continues to be an area of great instability as far as the russians are concerned why and that they they worry about it constantly because of its military potentials a car service that i'm on the tour bothers them perhaps more than any other single question here i don't think they're clear in their own minds what they want to do with eastern germany i think there have been occasions two or maybe three occasions when they were prepared

to act right it's uncertain agreement or germany have provided they got something else that major nature in return at the present time i think there are other interstate of stalemate in eastern germany about germany and generally just don't know which way to proceed and i'm not saying that they're not two different from everybody else's german question is as meyer itself is perhaps no other political question the post war era an era has laughter the gates reason for asking my next question which was do you see any signs of movement into the german problem of berlin there still of course is the divided severe there have been more exchanges are so called humanitarian basis over the past several years there has been talk at the billy graham to succeeded in becoming chancellor that the north might evolve and that more of this is still however as you've indicated are one of immobility it so it seems to me i just don't see very much of her

well i think it means there are some completely new sort of approach and i don't know where it's coming from or there's no new thinking on on germany on our side on the russian side or in germany itself and juries i guess i can't really move other settler country twice removed a geographically from continuing the soviet union albanians very strange little more than those countries is very unusual and different kind of people has become more as we read an outpost of the chinese communism in western europe but it could fuel efficient use of albania well it is it is a term he poured backward difficult country it's a country that i've been in some years now since i was there and they are not very hospitable to americans a very solemn up losing their money in them that was i think about eight nine years ago on a new

exhibit at the interstate and for those like an armed camp i never saw so many people moving around the streets in a country said this on albania and i think this is going to come to their country it's tiny mountainous economically and i will never been able to raise enough for corn up a lot of patches to feed itself itself independent like walmart people that fiercely independent people were in the feuds that have a fantastic feud with the yugoslav says one reason for it is that there are other more albanians living in yugoslavia there are in arming itself also they're quite close to each other and it had shared many common endeavors they were close to each other during the primaries and days during world war two and then there was an effort by the red sauce to take them over open this left very deep deep skies if there is a single cause of albanians erratic conduct i suppose it is analyzing the

nature relationship with yugoslavia air because she became independent of russia as the russians are cheaper rapprochement with tito the two things it's like get the little mormon and melanie in the weather vane one lady in the ever went out and it happened at a time when there was a place to go the chinese to split and emmer is it was possible and albanians to approach the chinese are perhaps the chinese to push the albanians any chinese agreed to give are mainly economic hour late so they send in spite of their own food shortages enough food jobbing and deeper going and we turn the albanians everyday denounce the russians to use laws and whoever is that the chinese are so at the albanians are prices soar their presses to britain i'd ever seen anywhere it's a pathetic thing it's a sad thing at this small little mountain country should be in this terrible statement saying its history is proud of the tragic and culture that has been

over the years it's a it's a it's so early history has been one of epic battles and small numbers of people against one theater after another and they are now going through a terrible period of trial detention its rotors of a surprise to me then dump out there isn't any equity tahrir or revolution in albania some other huge coming into power grab some would be more aligned toward the russians are in non communist and the only explanation for that that i can find is is set in the year the intense security precautions which hoosier the romanian dictator maintains and they really are terribly intense he's managed to survive again the courier well organized coup d'etat that the russians said attempted to stage against him using albanian navy would say it trains well meaning officers but the ocean or copper mark shaw people who are well they need to be lay his hands on so has been

hinting since that time i don't we see much future for the country and its press corps inside the asian land mass they virtual center of asian allies at yet another country with a degree of autonomy and that yet a satellite that nevertheless of that has apparently been the cause of increasing bitterness between china and russia some of the long ago said that this perhaps was the year straw that broke the camel's back as big government her admission to the united nations and her status now as a country that leans more towards soviet russia and georgia communist china and other countries but the chinese have felt belonged in there well i'm in mongolia's a country that i know quite well i've been there twice and i'm very fond of the primitive backward leno many area and most remote in this region and find securities piece la internatonal checkerboard to be so important that it is important it's been

at an area of russian domination since about nineteen twelve before that for a long long period time it was in the chinese fear influence but but as the russian's developed thereof ahead of money in north china and eastern asia in just before world war one mongolia family fell into their lap and they have maintained it in under their protection since that time and in fact the communist regime which is now in part in mongolian came to power in the early nineteen twenties through the intervention of a red army forces in siberia before that there had been a fantastically incredibly complicated spitzer civil war in mongolia which it was fought over by chinese japanese all sorts of mercenaries and it's white russians aren't and you can

imagine how many things you can imagine happen in mongolia family the power was vested in the center is rather primitive communists who interesting of may antonio computers in of the bodies stirred priesthood was the young prince of ongoing only india comes continue to maintain an office i think this is the only time that there has been such a regime in communist and he's may be continued to be the ruler the country on paper at least until he died but with his death it was then and turning to other ordinary communist regime and has been interesting in recent years has been that the chinese who of course are located all along the frontier of ongoing have made all sorts of everest to swing them on horseback and the chinese though and they've had some success in this because again of nationalism me among those

are split into three groups as a group which numbers about a million there's a group in august to mongolia which is in the soviet union they number about eight hundred thousand and then there is in inner mongolia which is part of china another group of perhaps sensing the growing numbers below the three million people that their split between three countries and brian actually they would like to be altogether yet they have not forgotten one moment they're a glorious history and again this kahneman well i would say that they despite renewed again that they'd like to themselves and though the chinese have been playing on this nationalistic aspirations are traveling i don't for a moment think the chinese would never permit them on those two have a new kingdom of their own arena new communist country of their own but some locals believe that this is a path to fall so they that they've had some success and

that there is evidence in the last three or four years are repeated and divisions within the communist a prison idiom of their local party are largely based on the split between those favoring are three ways that i think might you might say that those who are firmly in the russian and those would sort of like balancing between and smaller group who would like to swing the country over to china i don't for a moment think the russians will permit that to happen either especially as last year they showed they do have military sensitivity about ongoing it's a number of military missions out there to be certain that the front to secure russian wonder they'll either scientists officers to them on the army or they may move up some of their own units are there because me up front to attorneys on the state of the summer as an iphone se that there appears to be a concern a chinese effort for the uses so called minorities within the soviet union in asia a sweeping from the

kurds us pows all over throughout through the eastern part of the firm over siberia to this affect them are from the soviets and to hold out that palm of their independence is it working anywhere is there anything i don't really believe that it is in the end the russians interesting we are doing the same thing with the chinese they've been extremely active in xinjiang province where they have a very good naturalist thing going for them because most of the bulk of the population that that desert problems are related to be or maybe the same people you peers and they cause that's untrue these who are in the soviet union and they have never had good relations with the chinese and the russians here again it had a finger in that pie since before world war one and they have on several occasions said actually dominated the area and the day obviously have many many thais connections and probably underground subversive asians in the scene john brown sadly so the chinese saying i have no reason to doubt chinese in this respect and that the

russians seem to be an actively agitating those people's attempting to stir them up to join their brothers and so it's a lot to a half hearted along those great great distances miles of thousands of six thousand miles or more as it is an assault graham what about cuba this is a this is sort of an exception to the rule over some geographic continuity that tour we referred to before he says so so many thousands of miles from either china or the soviet union yet it remains are at least as we read it to a communist kind of state to let's do it as a communist enclave in a capitalist own hemisphere and then for that reason if for no other it's most unusual it's it's unusual in common a sense also in that debt it's one of the examples and there are other examples of a country which ship started out under a very nationalistic leader who had obviously a communist again

information's and move very rapidly into a position which he did mclean himself a full blown communist i'm still locked absolutely certain that he is set so he guided by the professors or the marx engels institute in moscow say they probably would find another a deviant but nonetheless he saw proclaims itself and many of the economic and social policies that he tries to put into effect in july actually accommodate nature it's been interesting to me that the last year of the castro regime have been marked by the what i would describe as a general retreat ideologically and propaganda stickley at the time and which show after was obviously attempted to consolidate and he's begun to pull his surge his museum and that he said doesn't seem to be so interested in stirring up trouble in other parts of latin america is trying to make his own country work and

coincident with apple has been a definite cooling off of a flirtation that he was engaging the communist chinese cheney's at one point looked like they might become the dominant influence there are they were the ones who were preaching a very much the same dr castro was at that time of bringing revolution of the country so that certainly jews are attractive thing obviously captured in jordan the russians and the other hand were attempting to cool things they're only trying to persuade their board yet enough on his hands gesturing at more trouble it looks to me as though au castor has decided that further russian device and perhaps the russian economic concerns because they were women are in or in a wedge here he is utterly dependent on them for certain supplies for his economy i have caused him to embark on a slightly different course whether this as any relationship to the

mysterious disappearance of junk i don't know some say he serves six thousand miles south in others say sixty dollars and at this point both finally saw trees we have to conduct this global review of a recent developments affecting no one has known by the misnomer east and west the brush fire or izzo which seemed to appear too be ready to ignite a conflagration not running off to solve along the iron curtain in europe seemed to have died down along that curtain to a degree although the curtain remains unknown leone via the geography is easter to add two west a truly not north to south so along the borders between russia and china along the north and soft borders of vietnam along the north salt borders of the accordion up the strain this is too far i wonder if we're we could look ahead to hear throughout the inscrutable

future what do you foresee as the meaning of these developments doesn't mean indeed the actor what was a spoken so shockingly a few years ago that that eventually russia and america would team up against china and you do think this is a it's happening now i don't know the date and they have certain are these communities of interest which are becoming apparent as so this process that you described was forward as we get political stability in europe and as the process of change and evolution occurs in eastern europe and the tensions there tend to relax our own interests turn to the continent's which have been subjected to the greatest political upheavals of the century in those gardens are injured in africa you cannot this number two or three great empires and and a set of independence on the part of

each of the small colonies which once reporters empires without setting in motion a fascinating political forces which are bound to shake the world and indeed that is exactly what we're doing and they're shaking the asian continent in particular probably because that's where this process got underway most rapidly with the emergence of the end of world war two of them first place two great powers india and china and what you'd previously been for all practical purposes a colonial powers they now became independent state and then suddenly independence was won by every other country in asia the consequences are bound to be revolutionary change and it's bound to be cataclysmic in his bungalow on you are going to get a shake down very quickly i personally think that's a ruling see much the same sort of thing in

africa and perhaps even more so in africa because i think there is a there is aid a type of development that may occur in africa which may not occur in asia and that is we may see nationalist in wars between truly african powers this is a subject that is hardly touched most people's consciousness because they're so worried about her and revolution only intensify that with communism and they think that many chinese are going to take over a foothold in the heart of africa where maybe i would be for that i suspect there will be some very terrible african problems will only concern africans themselves and we see even today we see the strategic problem which may be the first ruling on the great african crises which are truly africa and they involve african powers in yet although world powers have a stake in that piece this is this tendency in the direction that i expect to see the world moving and it's quite obvious that in that kind of world very often there will be occasions when russian interests and

american jews would be on one side and chinese would be on the other this doesn't lead to countries will be in an alliance or that they will even have a working arrangements it's been working about a park and finally we must ask this question because those who including the new york times who have editorialized on the vietnam situation for instance an on rhodesia and indicated that these are sparks to use the cliche that could ignite that a nuclear holocaust and yet the great diversity that you had indicated here that would seem to imply that this would be a rather unusual kind of war and perhaps a disabled easter one that would not be polarized as easily or as one time what do you see on this the sly personally that so long as as the nuclear balance is maintained between the soviet union and the united states but we have it at a very reliable guarantee against nuclear war in the world but as that balance is

upset or unused to some extent by the rise of other nuclear forces china is a notable one in a certain year and the others calling her train perhaps india then i think we enter an area in which we have to revise our thinking of the year the likelihood of nuclear war because then we have powers in this situation which it may very well have national motivations which are quite different from ours they may see in the nuclear weapon the one chance they have of redressing thousand year old national events at some point and they may consider this to be and something which is not going to affect the world and yet use this weapon they knew that to be followed by another and we and are very dangerous entity phase this is what i am concerned that surprised me as a nuclear things can get involved in a sense like the power bloc of new york has ninety days ago no one really knows

why and that could be conceivably in some way shape or form a nuclear bomb could be exploded and no one would really know where kids imposing a new career marked me and frontiers that say india we wouldn't necessarily know it might be china it might be immediate might be rushed it might be another power which secretly producer to upend supposing us is this an explosion is automatically picked up by the recording devices and the interpretation is that they're saying its russian or something that can you can easily see how a whole computerized global war like ignoring this year's reason may sound like fencing at the zone for some issues in the future you have been listening to an interview with harrison salisbury assistant managing editor of

the new york times and former russian correspondent he was interviewed by mitchell crows this recorded program was presented in cooperation with radio new york worldwide our air in the remaining portion of the hour you'll hear part of the first two movements of coffee at sixty and sweet opus twenty the st louis symphony performs under the direction of edward vernon immortal it's

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