This Land Is Your Land; 20; Robert O. Lehrman

isn't this continuing analysis and discussion you mathers sir and hear what today's program is your host dr joe welcome to this land is your land this week we are again going to discuss the problem of providing electrical power to meet a growing demands of our society our guest is robert all lehrman vice president for public affairs of consolidated edison welcomes dylan thank you for having the dutch german what we first a few words about consolidated edison or as we call a new york on it some people say something else when they heard it was unfortunately will try to be kind of we all know that canada's utility and that it supplies electric

power in the new york area i wonder if we can be a little more specific about that what we mean by utility and maybe you can go into some the details about what facilities con ed has in this area and what the boundaries of that service district are ooh wee is at a public utility have been given the privilege it's a monopoly privilege of supplying electricity basically within new york city and westchester and that means to some three million customers and gas to about half that area that is west chester patton the bronx and about half of queens we also supply steam inmate in downtown manhattan and that use primarily for the heating and cooling of large buildings our other any to eat or something about what plans you have it in the military what specific facilities there are yes we have approximately a twelve generating station's large generating stations in

the metropolitan area many are located here in new york city and one located up on the hudson river the indian point nuclear plants are construction planning for the next air several years and as a matter of fact in to the indefinite future contemplates that we will not be building any more large esteem generating plants for the production of electricity here in new york city and that we will be building them elsewhere you will continue to build steam generating plants and yes we will and did it do you expect that those will be our close to new york city already or will they be quite remotely removed it would appear that as far as the fossil fuel plants are concerned and nuclear plants for that matter that most of these plants are going to be in in upstate new york there is into the nineteen eighties if we look down that far the possibility of the location of a nuclear power plants

in the the army offshore islands off the the lower harbor of a new york bred says as much as five or ten miles out but there will be no nuclear facilities built within the boundaries of the city we don't contemplate any now there is of course a licensing and public acceptance problem is as far as the building of nuclear plants close to an urban center are concerned we do have some long range plans for the building of a nuclear plant on david island branch more than one nuclear plant on david's island which is off of the ad yeah long island sound coast just off new shell and that would be about the closest urban sighting of a nuclear plant that exist anywhere in the country today that that is a future planned we have not yet commenced construction and as a matter fact had not yet even applied for a license for that particular project can we turn now to the problem of our consumption electric

utility industry and the federal power commission estimate that the demand for electricity will continue to grow at an average rate of seven percent a year with a doubling time of every ten years at least for the next two decades is it possible to slow this rate of increase or perhaps you should ask if you think it's desirable to attempt to cut consumption there's no question that the fossil fuels which are now used to produce electricity coal oil gas or are finite in nature and we think it's very important that the public begin contemplating cutting down on unnecessary use of electricity so that they will not have to compel the use of these limited earth's resources for the production of electricity and as a matter of fact that's what led us to one of the major reasons that led us into this eva lot program which we have announced and which we have widely advertised up to this point that is trying to bring to the publics attention the fact that that electricity is a finite resource the very few rules that are needed to produce

electricity are finite and that therefore it's it is important that all of us begin considering ways that we might eliminate unnecessary uses of electricity remembering of course that electricity is only a small part of the total energy picture as some might call it electricity represents about twenty five percent of the energy consumed in this country so that the mere cutting back on the use of electricity is not going to be enough to help protect our environment over the long pull but it is a step in that direction and it's for that reason that we've gotten to this effort to to bring to the public's attention they need to to avoid needless use of electricity disable what campaign that i've just mentioned over the year is so over the past years you've had a major advertising campaign to promote the use of electricity now this seems to be a quite a reversal for you and if he didn't comment upon the pressures that than they've been brought to bear

it is a radical shift some three years ago when mr luce who is the chairman of our company came to candidates and the wisdom from our sources was that we should build the average use of electricity on the part of our consumers that we would be far more efficient and that we would be able to reduce electricity it for less cost if people would build up their average use of of electricity and so we we went into various programs trying to encourage people to do just that that is use electricity at the time of day and the seasons when we had excess capacity at night for instance only half of our power our capacity are likely capacity is used during the nighttime hours during the winter months or accept recently when we had power supply problems even during the winter there was about a twenty five percent less demand upon our plans during the winter months and that was during the summer months and so we advocated the use of lighting at night lighting for comfort and convenience and safety and we advocated the use of electric

heat during the winter months to try and balance our loaders it's called that is trying encourage people to use electricity again at times when our power plants work were not being utilized in this way as i mentioned before would become more efficient more economical try and bring rates down now of course with power supply problems upon us power supply situation being tight and with increasing awareness that we can't go on as a as a society using unlimited amounts of electricity without perhaps serious environmental damage the time is come we believe too to bring this to this problem to two to public attention and again it's it's focused on this this campaign save a water use of the electricity that you need for safety use the artistry that you need for comfort and convenience but the doorways to turn off the year the lights when women win you know when you leave a room unless those lights are being left on security purposes

if she had air conditioners are set them at the moderate settings or medium settings redolent of high and again turnoff when we leave a room i try and use major appliances in the in the evening hours or over weekends that isn't at a non peak hours of of electrical use there are a whole series of steps that we have we've published and it will continue to publish for trying to do too bring to all of our consumers the messages say want that is a concert on on the list so you supporters today it's interesting that you mention that the peak demands are now on the summer a believer was until nineteen sixty nine that peak demand for the utility was in the winter there was one that was the the peak used to be but i think it was back in the early sixties raman's latest sixty nine during the winter months might affect the peak usually came i think on christmas eve course all trees are being turned on and people rushing around lately afternoon trying to do though their last minute shopping and then get home and that was the the peak day

or some time in that period between the twenty second twenty fourth of december it's now completely reversed matter fact some fifty percent of our growth we estimate now in electrical demand comes as a result of air conditioning this is of course for change the p girl from the winter to the summer that's right now perhaps electric heating will begin to shift back again that's right although they of course there is a controversy over electric heat and and its environmental impact and there are some those who are involved in the environmental movement who contend that electric heaters not desirable because it requires more power plants to put out the electricity that's used to perform electric heat we think that that kind of of approaches is misguided first of all when you produce electricity from a power plant for heating purposes it's being produced in a central location and is being produced in the plant which has high stack so that whatever are the products of combustion of the oil or coal or gas has been used to reduce the power

they're being emitted at high levels and therefore are not as deleterious to those of us who have to live and work at at street level the second wave if you are producing the electricity in the central planners it's much more easily controlled them to have thousands of individual buildings each with its own heating plants each with its own oil burner coal burner or gasp or whatever it may be those those thousands of individual units are of course far more difficult to control they're far more difficult to keep as efficient as would be a central plant and then of course lastly as we do move more and more as we think we will into the use of nuclear energy to produce electricity there are of course none of the products of of combustion none of the air pollutants offered oxides and such and a nitrogen oxides produced when you use nuclear power to make electricity as there are when you when you use at the fossil fuel steam power plant to produce that so that as we move to nuclear power plants to produce electricity an end of that they are used to for for healing purposes to make

electric heat for for homes and offices and buildings than there will be that much less of a lot of environmental intrusion and the making of electric heat as contrasted with again thousands of buildings using their own farmers are called rivers are forecast to make make their heat we'll get into the possibility of environmental intrusion by nuclear plants letter of course there are problems there as well yes there are can we talk now about the notion of planning to meet increased demand let me be a little more specific we've seen in the last two or fifteen years or so very great increases in energy consumption in the new york area as wells and many other parts of the nation as con edison aware that such an increase was going to take place and if so how did the planning intend to be kept them and yes we are recognized in our long range planning but i mean even intermediate range planning five ten year planning many years ago that there was going to be an increase in demand as a matter fact our forecasts of what the demand for electricity would be

were remarkably accurate looking back on it even now we plan the power plants in the transmission lines to meet that demand but the problem has been that we are not unable largely for reasons beyond our control to get those power plants and those transmission lines built so that we could meet the demand when it occurred in other words you're pointing was frustrated that's correct me we can go into the details of that one of the essential problems and planning to meet our demands of course the siting of new power plants and con edison of course had considerable difficulty in recent years and they try to locate new plants we might speak briefly about the cat problems encountered in astoria and on storm king mountain can give a summons insight to those two episodes yes as daria and cornwall really exemplifies you've indicated that the problems in getting the necessary facilities built on time so that domain could be met to demand for electricity could be

made up back in sixty two we first announced our story corps cornwall the storm king installation that's what's called upon storage plant and basically the way it works is this you take electricity and to simplify and let me give you this example you take electricity and at night that's that's being produced in in your plants when it's really not needed as i've indicated at night was only about fifty percent of the demand for electricity that there is during the daytime so you take this electricity and you bring it up to let's say a cornwall upon the hudson river and that electricity is used to turn pumps which pull water up from the hudson river up to a reservoir way behind the mountains and the water is stored there as a result of the electricity turning those points during the day during the peak hours for electrical that demand when we needed electricity fast we in effect police the plug on that big bath tub at the top of the mountain the water comes pouring down the same way it came up and turns those

poems in reverse and in the process of turning those those bombs it produces electricity well as i've indicated the cornwall facility was first goes back to nineteen sixty two and there was serious environmental objections to it at that and we agreed to put the plant underground in nineteen sixty five as to try and counteract some of the environmental objections to do that to that facility but still the objections continued and our coast ten years later the plant is still under under conflict as far as the question of whether it's to be built and how to rebuild the federal power commission has approved it unanimously for the second time it's now for the second time before the federal courts again the united states circuit court of appeals for the second circuit and the opponents of the plant indicated that even if the court has to approve the facility again they intend to try and seek review of that decision the state supreme court so that assuming we get court approval for this facility will still take

another seventy years to get it built and that we will then be appointed eighteen years beyond the time when it was first proposed one that one is the nature of the objections to what the matter is of course i've indicated before the courts and i don't think would be appropriate to me to engage in any extensive colloquy over the objections of to ignore responses to those objections but essentially there are three the first is that is the question of aesthetics they claim that the facility will in some way despite the fact that it's now underground despite the fact that there is going to be parkland installed all long mile a long segment of the of the hudson river shore from there that there will be some a static intrusion by the by the plant secondly late in the game back in nineteen i guess it was sixty seven or sixty eight how the city government said that as a result of the new york city government as a result of underground in a facility there might be in the course of trying to build the plant and in the underground excavation work some danger from the explosives to the cities the

aqueduct catskill aqueduct abilities which brings of course water down to the city they all the theater are not all but do we believe they say the preponderance of the scientific geologic evidence on the point was overwhelmingly in favor of the view that there would not be such danger but in any event the federal power commission so concluded and again that is one of the issues before the court and lastly there is a a contention that since there is electricity needed to pump the water up at night and since that electricity might be produced in new york city two to turn those poems to bring water up to the top of the mountain that night that there would be a possibly in an air pollution problem so we have indicated that that term the likelihood that the large nuclear plants which are being constructed up on the hudson river are fairly near the plant the goal would be to use that nuclear energy an on air produce an on

air pollution producing and out of the city to supply electricity to to have to bring the water up in the end the cornwall facility socially we've indicated that we've committed to the proposition that if there should be any kind of serious air pollution incident in the inner city but we would purchase are from outside the the city two to bring the water up to the top of the cornwall facility but again this is a matter which is before the courts in the us and is in contention that's an interesting point that you bring up but if there is an air pollution incident or episode as they're called in new york city is guys con ed committed to shutting down some of their facilities to improve the situation we are committed to a number of steps to help improve the city's air in that in that situation such as burning as much natural gas as we possibly can which of course does not produce of a dark side or or be a particular narrative a certain dirt that goes up into the air and that is from our and so the plants and we are committed to taking a

number of other other similar steps to were to help alleviate the situation the question of whether all the power plants would have to be shut down of course would be a governmental decision in large part i would have to depend upon the seriousness of the situation i would imagine it i imagined after quite a serious situation if we cut out all our ears i also mention the yard a story of pro the problem in a story or in an enlarging the plant their own as you give us a little background in that particular issue problem that gave rise to the historian controversy was that a finding that we have been unable to get the necessary power plants built to supply the city's power needs and that there was need for what's called a base load facility that is a plant which would be capable of supplying power on a continuing basis unlikely cornwall pod storage facility which is for peking car you released the plug

and a bathtub of water pours out when the waters finish pouring out there's no more peeking car or i'm like a gas turbine which is use forbidding bass just like a jet engine and you just can't use it for a limited period of time so there was a need for a base load facility and the time was very short because of various of our major plans had been delayed we had planned for instance nuclear plants outside of new york city and committed to building plants outside new york city to meet the city's electric power needs and the second large nuclear plant was was supposed to come online in nineteen sixty nine and now looks like we'll be ready until nineteen seventy two in time for the summer nineteen seventy two the period of the third large nuclear plant in both of these to be built for us by westinghouse the third larger one was to be on one nineteen seventy one and back in ninety eight nineteen sixty eight it became apparent that that was going to be delayed at least until nineteen seventy three and perhaps later the fourth large one than this left a real gap of which

was to be built for nineteen seventy four and it became clear that that was going to be delayed at least until nineteen seventy six and seventy seven and it now looks like seventy eight or seventy nine or perhaps even beyond so that we were left with a serious gap in how we were going to bring the power to new york in nineteen seventy four and of course it takes anywhere from four and a half up to the ears of a nuclear plant is built together facility constructed to sidetrack just for sexual and say why these nuclear plants have been delayed while the nuclear plants have been delayed in part for the same reason that the fossil fuel plants have been delayed there are construction delays there are shortages of skilled labor there are jurisdictional disputes are between unions and among unions and that by the way is particularly acute on a nuclear plant which is after all over it a fifty year old or technology as with fossil fuel plants but rather a technology which is about twenty years old let's say twenty to thirty years old

and so the unions are still trying to determine who is the appropriate force to do what is it is this an electrical engineer a jobber technician's job or is in a resume construction man's job and these kinds of questions can evolve into jurisdictional dispute cinnamon two strikes are work stoppages or work slowdowns and the second reason third reason as far as he is concerned and as of course the concern on the part of some that nuclear plants present environmental problems and they're unwilling to have nuclear plants built sometimes in particular locations and summoning the who are concerned about nuclear plants would say they should be built at all there are pressures on your own to ignore and so those are the reasons why these facilities were delayed or with this major gap this large gap been in power planning for nineteen seventy four we began looking at alternatives could we purchase power and we went up and down the east coast and into canada we try to determine whether we could purchase power from the power authority the state of new york there were environmental

jack objections in time too it is that we faced whichever route we look to and so we were finally compelled to to the conclusion that if the city were to have adequate power supply for nineteen seventy four and nineteen seventy five period we would have to seek permission to to build a fossil fuel plant in new york city we try to take precautions as far as the environment was concerned and we decided to use very low sulfur fuel center and take other measures which would result the story itself even though we originally contemplated a doubling of the plant that we've the results would be in terms of air pollution about fifty percent of the present air pollution even with a doubling of the of the plant we announce the plan widely in the summer of nineteen sixty nine so we sent our ten year plan or revise tenure plan which included history installation focused on its crested to all appropriate dairy government groups city state federal and community groups are the groups and the like and that indicated what the problem was and why we felt that

astoria war was not a desirable solution was unfortunately only way we felt that job most adequately could we meet the demand for power in a nineteen seventy four while result of the controversy and you know after that is that a year later after extensive public debate the mayor decided to permit us to build half the facility that that we had sought that is eight hundred thousand kilowatts rather than a million six hundred thousand kilowatts and we are proceeding with that with the building with the construction of the plant would expect that we hope to have an online as originally schedule for the summer of seventy four of course that's that leaves the question of where the other half goes well another eight hundred thousand goats and that's the broad question of the fact that nobody seems to want the power plant in their backyard and yet most people still today seem to want to turn on the air conditioner have the lights go on when they when they turn the switch and it's that's the difficult problem to resolving the

the demand for power in the need for electric power jobs raising the level of the poor in this country and the lead equally important need of protecting the environment we think one solution many i'm running order to warn that going on now we think one solution is the need for a state agency which would determine where a power plants to go part of the problem now is that for instance the store is an example of that we have to get some twenty to twenty five permits from different agencies city state federal before we can build the plant and having one agency can say no to anyone who's permits which would stop playing and yet not one agency has the authority to say no you can't build it there but yes you can build it in community be and we think it's critical of where to get the facility is that meat environmental standards and at the same time satisfy the growing demand for oil for electricity that there be some state agency which can make that decision look at reliability factors that is what kind of plant is needed and what size plant in the

light look and environmental factors but that cost factors it's terribly important to the consumer after hearing all sides the local municipalities involved weigh all those factors to determine where the power facilities to go and leave governor rockefeller favors the same view that you just expressed yes that's right the legislation unfortunately did not pass this session of the legislature we think it's unfortunate for the people of the city and me and the people of the state of the legislation to not pass because the need for power plants continues and the question of where we can cite those plants continues just as an indian as serious a vein let's pause a moment for station identification today on this land is your land we are talking

with robert all lehrman vice president for public affairs of consolidated edison we're talking about the power crisis and about the role of consolidated edison in meeting the demand for electrical power we were talking before the break about the problem of citing new power plants and you describe the frustration of consolidated edison has met in recent years in trying to build new plants in there for me to demand do you foresee a crisis in power supply in the reasonably near future because of his frustration there's no question there were any critical period as far as power supplies concerned right now and that this critical period will continue until we're able to get the necessary power facilities built that we have those power facilities planned and if they can proceed on schedule and by nineteen seventy four nineteen seventy five we should have here in this area one of the most modern of power systems in this country if if not in the world if

those facilities or are substantially delayed as have other proposed projects in the past then the critical period could continue and we're not alone by the way that germany and in this problem it's a problem which exist throughout the northeast and portions of the of the west end and the alamo on the west coast as a matter of fact early readers of of the local newspapers will know that there is a very serious controversy raging right now in the continued building of power plants the four corners area of southwestern portion of the united states very own populated area and yet even there people are getting very concerned about the pollutants which are planned summit and whether the id the concept of growth the concept of of continued demand for electricity can be reconciled with with environmental needs him in an environmental limits let's get into the question of fuel

for electrical energy we know that the two principal energy sources are fossil fuel and nuclear power each has its problems the world's fossil fuel reserves are limited and nuclear and injured has some serious environmental drawbacks notably the radiation hazard and thermal pollution discuss the con edison view of these problems and what you see as the future primary fuel source we think that nuclear energy over the long poll is in and must be the resource that's that's going to supply electricity for the world the reason for that is first the supply of these so called fossil fuels as you've mentioned coal oil gas or limited research is going on right now into ways that we might stretch those supplies but they are limited secondly the production of electricity from fossil fuels from the burning of oil or coal or gas to make steam and turned that into a worm into electricity is of course of

producing of of serious they're environmental and voters who've suffered oxides of nitrogen oxides and particulate matter as of as i mentioned before nuclear energy on the other hand is non air polluting in in that in that sense there are drawbacks in and concerns about nuclear power but as with everything else in our lives we really must evaluate the risks as against the benefits to be to be gained from a particular source of bringing comforts and raising standards of living for for our people and we think that over the long pull that nuclear energy nowruz is presenting itself as the answer to that and will increasingly and in future years many people feel the new sources of energy should be developed of these include geothermal and solar power this con edison have any sort of program for the development of new energy sources are at least for research in these areas we think that the most productive research at this point can be done in prison

forms of nuclear energy in ways of using fossil fuels to produce energy more efficiently and with less impact on the environment and that schemes and concepts such as geothermal power and solar power or are ones that are interesting on the drawing boards and as blue sky kinds of ideas but considering the pressing demand for electricity and the increasing demand for electricity doubling every ten years that it would not be prudent it would not be sensible to poor large sums of money and in two and two concepts such as geothermal power solar power which seems so far removed from anything that we can bring to fruition and the next fifty to a hundred years turning back at it from a dodgers for moment to to nuclear you would mention some of the concerns about nuclear we feel that some of those concerns really are are not sufficiently with with foundations

for instance that there is concern about the radioactivity which is released from nuclear plants well apparently in point plant which has been in operation now for some eight years there is released about one unit to a half of unit of radioactivity per year an individual flying back and forth to san francisco because he's high in the air and gets natural radioactivity would receive in one such airplane trip the amount of radioactivity additional radioactivity is where you would receive from living your next to our indian point nuclear facility or another rather interesting statistic the stone in grand central station is very highly naturally radioactive radioactive the federal environmental protection administration has just to come out with some figures which show that an individual who stayed in grand central you're welcome could get as much as five hundred units of radioactivity again as contrasted with from the natural radioactivity from the stone in grand central

importance of grand central again as contrasted with a half unit or at most a unit of radioactivity coming out of the indian point plant on an annual basis so that is for israeli artillery is concerned although certainly there's cause for concern there's reason to try and continue research and developing ways to lessen those those emissions of radioactivity the concern considering the air pollution factors from fossil fuel plants and other dangers emanating from such facilities the concerns perhaps or are not as serious as this might otherwise be thought it's interesting to note that last week the atomic energy commission decreased your rent rather improved the standards for the local radiation from nuclear plants and that even the new standards on that by almost every new present nuclear power plant in the united states except to oh one in illinois and the other i can't remember exactly where it is is not in new york so the indian indian point plant certainly lower than those well within those limits

yes let's go a little bit more to the problems of pollution for a moment specifically you can imagine what kinds of steps that con edison is taking to avoid polluting the atmosphere and also our bodies of water can be doing the research in this area yes we are the and the first question i guess is what we've done in an in trying to bring our contributions to to pollution down first week we've cut by some fifty percent are contributions to the city's that's new york city particulate air pollution problem and sulfur dioxide problem and we've done that and at least a substantial part by going to lower sulfur fuels and doing that song three years before we were then legally required to do so by nineteen seventy five we estimate that will be producing some sixteen percent of the sulfur dioxide and particulate matter and that we did back in nineteen sixty six that means an eighty four percent reduction

over a ten year period we don't say that that's perfect it's far from and who would like to reduce reduce that to zero and that's one of the reasons why we've entered into this agreement with the city to try and build as many of our facilities we can outside of the city and also to take all measures we possibly can to bring pollution down but it's a record i i think we can be proud of that doesn't mean we can rest on it nor should we nor are we are where we're taking further steps to try and bring them down even further in the field of nitrogen oxide which is recently come to be thought of as a a problem only in the city's air we had well before it was mentioned by governmental authorities locally as a problem we had begun a program of trying to identify what kind of problem are plants were we're creating in terms of nitrogen oxide in and what kind of measures could be taken to to cure the problem where a problem existed you also mentioned the question of the surge the money is we spend on

research or are not adequate we spent about three million dollars a year that's about at least double what we were spending so years ago our the utility industry as a whole spends about forty million dollars a year and manufacturers who produce products for the utility industry spend about a hundred million dollars on related research so that there is being spent nationally about a hundred and forty million dollars and fifty million dollars by private enterprise and research and in areas related to the production use of electricity the the neat however is far greater than even that whether we're talking about some of the more sophisticated an esoteric methods of producing electricity you've mentioned two of them are solar power and geothermal power we were talking about such techniques is a magnet a hydrogen amex whether we're talking about are trying to transmit power long distances underground rather than having the cables are above ground in an unsightly matter all of this requires enormous sums of money to try and

bring nuclear power to the point where some of these concerns and problems about nuclear power radioactive emissions at the disposal of radioactive waste are no longer a problem and they we hope will no longer be a problem at all when the more advanced methods of nuclear power production by fiction breeder reactors and in the case of phishing or conceivably lead into the century early into the next by fusion power but then these devices are you can see require hundreds of millions of dollars for for teacher or any of them to be developed we think the answer is they're foreign and to serve her chairman has advanced this this idea on several occasions over the course of the past year is therefore there'd be a tax on the only use of electricity perhaps a one percent tax with the monies to go into some form of national trust fund and with those monies the news from the trust fund or to be administered perhaps by some combination of government and industry in their

academic career he admits the money is to be spent allocated to research and in these these various critical areas of trying to develop ways better ways to do so much was do you comparing our environment into the story again later the holocaust must come back to the consumer as a viscous consumer that using the letters it in it should be the consumer that pays for and the environmental problems as well are caused by the consumption ultimately our income comes only from the consumer so that ultimately we must look to the to the consumer to pay these costs and as a matter of fact and it's something that the consumer must be thinking about that is an environmental protection requires enormous sums of money we are now spending and it goes right through to our consumers directing public some twenty million dollars more pre year for high premium fuels that is low sulfur content fuels that will produce less sulfur into the air and unless turned into the air and we're going to have

to spend if the the city council and the mayor signs city council passes the mayor signs a pending air pollution code we will have to be spending some one hundred million dollars at two hundred million dollars more next year to purchase even lower sulfur content fuels well again that's a sum of money but a large sum of money represents if passed on as it's required to be going to our consumers about an eight ten percent rate increase in effect yet and that just the one item of informal protection so to some support every large indeed and there's some other measures that they are being taken and i you have stacked precipitate years and i guess all of your plans now suspects appear to be quite clean the arctic except in those areas where we are still burning coal and there from time to time that the stacks are as we call them dirty that is their occasional puffs of black smoke which we try and prevent as much as we

can we are converting oli from coal completely except in emergency conditions in our inner city plants and that is we will be using a normal operations weiland and gas to produce electricity in in new york city and that we think is a major environmental step which will help and our efforts to cut down on our contributions to the city's air pollution burden i'd like to turn now to your relationship with the regulatory agencies in the energy field in particular we should talk about the public service commission the federal power commission and the atomic energy commission can you tell us briefly how each of these regulate the activities of khan and yes our basic regulatory agency the one that pretty much tells us what we can do and what we can't do it every year of our operations is the new york state public service commission we are involved with the federal power commission in connection with our car into relationships with other utilities and when we

begin to develop projects which are exclusively under the control of the federal power commission as is a facility like the storm king plant cornwall plant because it makes use of a of a river body as far as the atomic energy commission is concerned there are of course the regulatory agency at the federal level as far as atomic power plants are concerned what is the major difference between the the effect on the utility of the public service commission and a federal power commission for example which of these has involved a land sighting in which is involved in setting rates it depends upon what kind of utility you are we aren't entrust a utility and therefore subject largely to the jurisdiction of the new york state public service commission has of indicate there are some instances where we're involved in federal projects or into relationships with utilities in other states where the lead but with a federal power commission may become involved is a matter of fact is of course the question

on the whole question over of regulations is really an interesting one doctor in the district and so rich regulation and it's our philosophy that the regulation should be fair but strict that the public confidence will flow in terms of the services that we're providing only if we have a a tough but fair regulatory agency that's that's looking after our hour service that were providing or whether it be in terms of electric service that is when the lights go on when you turn the switch or whether it be in terms of how we handle our consumer complaints are we believe it's important since we do have been given a monopoly we believe it's important to have a very tough regulatory body they're strictly but that fairly monitors and supervises our activities does the federal bar commission have any control over either the signing of your plants or you rate structure not with respect to our

rate structure by large that's a matter within the competence of the state public service commission again because really trust eight and today we respect however to the siting of certain kinds of places of mention the storm king planned because it involves the use of the hudson river a natural body of water liam leave federal power commission is the entity which is primarily responsible for making the decision as to whether we can build a facility or not but under any circumstance the young public service commission what separates that's great white savior it's tied to the relationship of the utilities to the commission's is your view of the public and their role in participating in decisions in our field i wonder if we can go into some depth here and discuss alternative ways in which the public can first of all become better informed about the problems in their solutions and perhaps more important how the public might become involved in some of the more critical

decision making their concerns their vital interests what we've tried a to meet with those groups were concerned with the environment to bring our plans to their attention and to discuss with them aware were going in terms of love we think of supplying the demand for electricity while at the same time reconciling our plans with the need for environmental protection and we found it helpful twice prior to get the benefit of the views of those concerned with the environment on on such matters we've also met with him but with a consumer group leaders and consumer groups as a whole an effort to learn their concerns about our operations again so that we can improve our service to public education efforts again the bill inserts that we might send out advertisements that we will take from time to time a corporate advertising nature we try and bring to the public's attention as we have with the

save what campaign they're areas that we think are important to the public that involve operations so that we can elicit the public's hands or cooperation or for that matter an opposition in the form of correspondence and we we have plenty of it when we go on and sometimes you know we think we were going right you mention before the n liam a question of rates and who fixes rates and done that touches on the serious question which shows before of who and how are we going to pay for both the meaning the demand for electricity in this inflationary year and the same time meeting environmental concerns as a very serious problem because with the inflationary period that we face now and with the ever increasing cost for environmental protection we are now in a situation

that the electric utility industry as in its history not been and that is one of our finding ourselves having constantly to to seek an increased rates even with that the cost of electricity has gone up relatively nicely rally because at any time there's a rate increase were unhappy about it and certainly our consumers are even more unhappy at least i'm happy the cost of electricity before most recent increase has gone up some twenty six percent since nineteen forty six that means that fifteen sense of electricity was costing about nineteen cents or twenty cents on my guess is that as the figure well contrast that with what fifteen cents bought back in nineteen forty six in terms of subways in newspapers and fifteen cents to buy your roundtrip subway ride to and from your home and your newspaper but today it's costing seventy five cents for that round

trip so we ride the newspaper and looks like if they announced increase or suggested possibly increase in and subways goes throughout the fifteen cents back and forty six may buy and they now cost a dollar five for road trips are we really in the newspaper so again the the increase in the cost of electricity has not been a large up to this point fifteen cents up to about twenty cents but those costs are are going to have to continue to rise as we're faced with the same inflationary portion everybody else's for instance our taxes will go up some seventy million dollars by the end of next year our interest cost too on the money we need to finance this massive construction program who got some seventy five million dollars by the end of next year and our labor cost following our most recent labor settlement who got up some thirty six million dollars during the first year the contract another twenty during the second year so the the inflationary pushes upon us our job is to try and operate as efficiently as we

can within the company to try keep those costs down that spike as as with every member of the public an individual member of the public or were facing the inflationary portions well and on top of that of course are these ever increasing costs additional cost for environmental protection which we're all beginning to be aware or necessary but which are very large i think there's no question that we don't have to pay more for electrical power in the future years i don't think anyone would argue with that i wonder if you could possibly address the problem of involving the public and decision making do you think that there is some way that the public could be directly involved in decision making on problems such as citing environmental protection and so on and i know we can weaken a lot in terms of informing the public but is there any way they can get into the decision making process well had this citing legislation been enacted by the legislature it would have provided a medium for the public to become involved that is at a public hearing with do notice

to the localities municipalities environmental groups and everybody else might be concerned about where our plan is to go in that would seem at least one appropriate way for the public both in the local level or not to become involved in any decision about where a power facilities has to be built yes that might be a satisfactory way of doing it i believe that the this law does have a public public hearing clause in it because the the responsibility for the sightings the wood rests with the state agency you that's correct that's why we thought was a terribly important the the authors of the legislation did as well obviously to have a hearing procedure where there was too noticed that to the locality an opportunity for the locality itself to be heard in the proceeding because otherwise it's just they were moving of the about the authority from the from the local local entity with no opportunity for the entities for the local entities input to to be heard and

felt on on that issue and the presence on the local entity simply vetoes the project financing and can that's right yes and again as a military before there's no one government body which can say local area no one has said no therefore you will build a plant in a local area number two yes it's just a matter of going to first one local area that they say no go into the next local area and ultimately work week we may well one of cells in a point where there simply are no power facilities because we we had not been able to find a home for that power plant or a home for the transmission there is no state legislation by the way which does not permit based aid agency to determine where a transmission line is to be located and how is to be located after again to notice public hearings avoid as mouth that we have are proceeding pending right now in another lower new york state

called shooting involving a wind transmission line called assad in turin which is now before the public service commission where one local town and said we want the line underground will fall fifty or sixty hours long routes in the same thing then what are consumers would be faced with is instead of having to pay some twenty million dollars for an overhead line taking all informal portions that we possibly could with an overhead lot but still overhead or paying some two hundred million dollars to place that line underground yes and if we can turn to a technical questions for a moment the tendency in the sixties was to build larger and larger plants and our units this culminated with the development of the million kilowatt unit at the ravenswood plant the defense began hours this unit which was placed in service in nineteen sixty fives and intermittent trouble that failed in the summer of nineteen sixty nine which point they had to be approximately eight percent reduction voltage in the

new york area has gone to come away from the policy of utilizing these very large unit well as our operating officials are fond of saying they wish they were better when they're working and then there's a smaller when they're in trouble are we are pulling back a bit in the way of size in terms of the new units that are being planned and there's no question of course that that the bigger humans represent a larger part of your capacity and therefore they do go out they cause you more problem but they are more efficient and more economical and that was the reason why back in the sixties the trend was accepted by almost everybody in the end the power business to try and build units that were larger larger for efficiency and economy and as a matter of fact with taking big houses example ravens with three which was the largest in the country was built was probably maybe in the world there was planning to do to try and protect against

averages a big outlets our coral storm king plan was to be completed just two years afterwards that the less than two years afterwards and of course that would've provided emergency backup in the event a big yeah us was unavailable well as we know and as we discussed earlier cornwallis still adult mouse we didn't have the backup from alice when when she went there but there were knocking on wood and keeping our fingers crossed she seems to be operating well this does not mean however that that we think that we can pull back from the the idea of them trying to bring to the public that the concept of conservation of energy conservation electricity they're using it a waste like for instance on these two days last week very very hot weather we weathered it well but i'm going to go stay with us but how'd we have because there are other units we might have been in difficulty and as a matter fact even on those two days we estimate that from our savor what campaign we were

saving enough electricity through the cooperation of the public and was great we were saving enough electricity so the week did not have to have forty productions i had we not had this a board campaign and had the public not been cooperating and we might well have to have voltage reduction so in those days even with big alice so the message from environmental considerations of say rwanda about using orcas in any listen to summer continues to be important even with big hours back with us it's equally important of course for for environmental considerations we have a that two minutes left it and like to ask you what may be a philosophical question one of weekend clothes with an overall view of the future the power industry as it looks now face with increasing public concern over the environment increased demand for power rising costs of fuel supplies decreasing availability of plans for new plan sides and pressure for public involvement in decision making to put that whole package together as the future look

for the power industry the future looks like a difficult because you just couch and i think that represents the actual picture dr this week we must in all of our planning involve ourselves with each of the issues that you just mentioned and do it successfully that is try and get the power facilities built and at the same time try not intrude unduly on on the environment we think that that over the long pull the increasing demand for electricity is going to mean increasing demands on the environment and that people perhaps ultimately are going to have to try and and change their lifestyles someone you a little bit more discipline and in how they use their their energy sources conserve electricity and conserve all forms of energy in some ways we think that if

the politics this message to heart and begins conserving and small ways that will have ample supplies of electricity for the environmentally imperative needs that is for mass transit sewage disposal place for waste to recycling for housing and end up for hospitals and other large public facilities and also to promote the growth which is essential afford it to have jobs for all to continue a standard of living that we have in this country and help bring the poor up to that span of living in this country and throughout the world but that that that task in those global question that you coached or are very difficult ones our society has succeeded with that to him a moderate degree so for him and meeting these objectives the task ahead is going to be much harder thank you very much ms alam you've given us avert particular insight into the problems that we

face and especially into the role of content in meeting the crisis our guest today on this land is your land was robert all where men vice president for public affairs of consolidated edison you've been listening to continuing analysis of laughter land is your land and this land and milan california family or god land or the rain waters land and made a human being this program was produced is

it is it it our own big rambo are like oh it's that's the argument slams her diamond deserts all around at a voice was sounding this land was made for you and me god named alice rolling wheat fields waving dangerous about trolling set me me

you know we believe in germany fb