Knapp Commission Hearings; 4th Day, 1971-10-21

We have only one witness to date, a patrolman of William R. Phillips, a man who was on the take in his years as a police officer and who was discovered in this activity by an undercover agent of the NAP commission. And at that moment, the patrolman Phillips then became an undercover investigator for the NAP commission. The arrangements for patrolman Phillips in turning into an undercover investigator for the NAP commission have not been revealed. He is under 24-hour guard and his testimony is to continue today. But it will not occupy the whole day. patrolman Phillips will probably be the lead off witness today. Complete his testimony then other witnesses are to appear.

patrolman Phillips has basically been testifying about his experiences as a police officer for 14 years in various precincts and in various activities as a youth squad in narcotics as a plane clothesman, as a foot patrolman. And yesterday he testified as to his activities as an undercover investigator for the NAP commission. Basically his mission as he described it yesterday was to go into Midtown posing as a policeman who had a friend who wanted to set up a floating crap game in various locations in Midtown and he was trying to arrange protection for that crap game. He was introduced to a owner of a bar. It was said to have connections in the police department in Midtown Manhattan told the bar

tender what he wanted to do and thereupon was put in contact with various patrolman and the arrangements to set up the the price then began. The the purpose of his activities was to determine how far he could pierce the police establishment and locate corruption. During all his activities in that period patrolman Phillips was carrying a concealed transmitter and many of his conversations were recorded. excerpts from those conversations were played at the hearing yesterday. A lot of it unintelligible over the public address system in this large room however transcripts were also made available of the conversations and they illustrated the complexity of the negotiations to set up protection to set up a

pad. The term pad is one that's been heard frequently during this hearing and the term on the pad means that this is an organized system of payoffs to police various precincts and divisions and so forth and the police officers who who are taking graft are known as on the pad. On the pad is different from a score a score means one a one shot payoff situation where a policeman may go into a bar and there will be a fracas and for a prize he will arrest the people not in the bar but on the sidewalk as an example because if there's an arrest in the bar the bar owners likely to have trouble with this liquor license and the state liquor authority and he also described his experiences on the youth squad where again there was a pad for for various divisions of the youth

squad pad paid into by owners of bowling alleys and other places where youths congregate and all the members of the precinct or the squad or whatever police organization is involved share in this pad equally and he testified and the patrolman Phillips testified yesterday as to the amounts the various policemen were receiving from their from their pads it ranged from $400 a month per police officer to $1,500 a month per police officer depending on the activity and that was going on in the precinct he also described I guess the best he described as the morays of the operations of pads where members of the police department who were on the pad were regarded highly if they were active in bringing in new business much in the same way a business

organization would operate so instead of a situation where the police the policemen on the pad were taking money to turn their backs on illegal activity what in fact was the case as described by patrolman Phillips was a situation where police officers actively encouraged the entrance into their area of gambling operations other forms of illegal activity in order to increase the amount of money that would be paid into the pad and thereby increase the share of the policemen participating in that pad during the his testimony in the last two days one of the most important aspects of police operations that patrolman Phillips has identified is the pervasiveness of the corruption he has said that his particularly noted that the plane closed for us in New York City in his view

and in his experience is thoroughly thoroughly corrupt and he made the point that if a police officer transferred to the plane closed force wanted to stay straight that is not take graft he would be transferred out of the plane closed force because none of the other plane closedman wanted him around because he could not be trusted we are waiting for the nap commission hearings to begin the fourth day fairly large crowd in this room today each day the crowd has been getting longer larger basically because I was suspect that this hearing and its disclosures and the play the disclosures are getting in the media is gripping the attention

more and more of New Yorkers rode down here in a cab today cab driver talked to nothing else he said now he knew why so many members of the police department live such live such a well-moneyed life large houses in the suburbs several cars that was the taxi driver's view he had on the seat beside him the daily news with which carried on his front page today a map of the precincts with the amount of money that each member of the precinct got from the pad the reaction of the police department to the disclosures has not been

terribly good as could be expected there has been and chairman Whitman nap of this commission has taken great pains to indicate a good relationship between the commission and police commissioner Murphy pointing out that the commissioner has been cooperative and also pointed out that the fact that patrolman Phillips who has been the star witness so far could function as an undercover agent after functioning essentially as a corrupt policeman required the cooperation of police commissioner Murphy in order to have do that undercover work but yesterday at a news conference commissioner Murphy described patrolman Phillips as a rogue cop and said that his his contentions that have been made in this hearing should be received in that

light obvious implication that perhaps patrolman Phillips is not a truthful person but regardless of whether patrolman Phillips is or is not a truthful person he is an impeccable witness and has been so throughout the three hours a day he has testified here his recall of date's offense sizes of payoffs is is good he is never without an answer and certainly to to an observer what he has to say rings true it is so detailed and certainly is providing great deal of insight into the operations of the police department also yesterday you're me the police department transferred 113 plain clothesmen which is about a quarter of those in the gambling prevention unit to uniform duty as i mentioned earlier one of the major

contentions of patrolman Phillips has been that the plain clothes unit is regarded he regards it as almost totally corrupt and for those policemen who are on the pads i transfer to plain clothes duty is regarded as a bonanza because of the amount of money to be made commissioner Murphy yesterday in his press conference also addressed himself to to that saying that he didn't think every plain clothesman in the york city police department was corrupt and he knew some himself who were not the police commissioner also reinstated the chief of chief detectives Albert Seedman who had been essentially suspended from his post last Friday by the commissioner of the nap commission found it's investigation that chief Seedman had received

or had eaten that they killed in hotel the new york hilton with his wife and another couple and run up a tab of some eighty three dollars and didn't pay the bill but commissioner Murphy said yesterday that upon investigation it was discovered that I was concluded that this had been an isolated incident and that they could find no pattern of such activities in chief Seedman's past and so therefore he was reinstated at the same time the commissioner announced the formation of what he termed an ethics board within the department to rule on such things as honorariums for police officers make speeches and free meals and that kind of thing

so we can expect these kinds of developments to continue these kinds of reactive developments to continue throughout the nap commission hearings although the commissioner Murphy made an effort to say that in the transfer of the 113 plain clothesman back to uniform duty that this was a routine event that had been planned for some time and that have had nothing to do with what has been discussed here at the bar association building at the same time as he announced the transfer the police commissioner said that 154 new plain clothesman had completed a five week course at the police academy and were being sent out to work in the 15 police divisions patrolman phillips testified yesterday

and in testifying yesterday as to the amounts of money that were available in the various pads in the various precincts in the city said his information was based on a survey he made of the situation two weeks ago so the situation he has been describing in the hearing were in effect according to him at least two weeks ago what's what's happening right now there is no information and patrolman phillips also in describing situation in the police department made the point that there is an underworld of sorts in the police department where the policemen who are on the pan no no each other and that an inquiry can be made by one policeman to another when someone

new comes in their precincts to determine if this policeman is one of them or if he is not the chief counsel of the nap commission Michael Armstrong has now entered the room and Joseph Montserrat a member of the nap commission also has joined us there was a lone picket outside the bar association building this morning when i came by with a sign saying something some obscure thing about Joseph Montserrat presumably referring to his days in the port of education i couldn't quite make out what the issue was supposed to be all about there was a sole picket here yesterday also

complaining that the nap commission was acting like the McCarthy commission McCarthy investigating committee of the fifties in that it was slandering the police and that basically has been the contention of a lot of policemen that the hearings are indeed dragging the New York City police department through the mock as they put it serving no useful purpose that i say is the contention of some policemen and their organized spokesmen such as the patrolman's benevolent association and there's no doubt about it these hearings certainly are are not making the New York City police department look good i don't think it has been a revelation too to any sophisticated person in New York City to know that there is corruption in the New York City

police department but i don't think i think few people will be extended but according as described by patrolman Phillips this is Whitman nap the chairman talking yes yesterday you will be asked during the break not to go out of the room unless you have some special need to do it just not wander out the reason for that is that the security check that we have instituted requires checking everybody out in that goes out and it would just take too long to get started the other thing is we have as we all know a very alert press and in the account of yesterday or the day before it was pointed out that people were smoking in here notwithstanding the signs this has produced a request from the fire department that we take those signs seriously now this is an all-building and a lot of people in this room and will everybody

please serve me i was welcome sir but a Whitman nap and a loud mouth press has just made life uncomfortable for those of us who have to sit in this room for three hours broadcasting and who enjoys smoking but that's the price of honesty and obeying the law the announcement that chairman nap made as to not leaving the room during the course of the hearing is a result of a bomb scare that occurred here Tuesday someone called the police department said there was a bomb that message was passed on while patrolman Phillips was testifying the room was cleared police searched found no bomb but the hearing was delayed for an hour since that time fairly tight security has been instituted in this building and in this room so that kooks and other nuts who may call into bomb threat can be

ignored and the chief counsel Michael Armstrong seems about to begin the droman philips is not arrived yet full failings of television camera man photographers gathered around facing the door out of which patrolman philips will emerge hard to tell whether he enjoys or does not enjoy this notoriety he's appeared very calm and throughout this hearing although sometimes gives short quick nervous physical gestures

but he has been at no no loss for words throughout this hearing he has completed 14 years on the police department soon to qualify for pension and policemen's pensions are vested after after 15 years service once again this is WRBR's live coverage of the nap commission which has been investigating police corruption in New York City this is the fourth day of the hearings they will continue through next week patrolman philips has just emerged along with five or six husky looking escorts one

presumes his body guards he has been guarded 24 hours a day and he's sitting at a table facing chief counsel Armstrong who will lead you through this testimony you know pouring himself a drink of water we're about to begin this fourth day of the nap commission hearing public hearing into police corruption in New York City officer philips

we were discussing yesterday at the end of the day your experiences as a detective at a 17 squad can you break down the amount of money in your experience while you're on the 17th squad that the detective on that squad would get is that the per month well there was only has any steady yes pardon me I was going to try and keep it in the room please I can't do it there was one small contract where 40 Alice came into the whole squad for the month that was all that was a pair how about the christmas pad or the christmas was an organized operation and the squad clerical man had the master christmas list which was kept locked up at all times each detective had the christmas time was given a list of between 10 and 15 the status

must have go to pick up money bars and grills hotels and other businesses gamishments the money was all brought in and it was divided equally among the detectives in the squad the lieutenant sergeant had their own christmas list they did not participate in ours say the clerical man kept a list like that was it did you see that list yes I did how long a list was there was quite a long list of 10 or 15 yellow pages and what was on that list every hotel almost every bar every cabaret and other business establishments in the 17th precinct were all of these establishments contacted directly by the police officers or did some just voluntary there were instances where large department stores would call in for a list of names

and a lot of a lot of occasions the money will be sent directly to the squad with the individual's name on the envelope in that situation where we got the individuals listed or just go into the part that situation when right to the individual listed those individuals be passed out separately and you say the lieutenant sergeants had their own christmas pay yes and how are you aware of that yourself by conversations with the other superior officers with the lieutenant's and sergeants themselves yes and what was the amount of the christmas pad as far as each individual take of this concern the drainer possibly between four and five hundred dollars now that's per man per man yes and individually you'd also get Christmas payments

is that right yes other people you have come and contact with over the years who have you have done favors for what would that come to on an average well in some cases another 200 dollars now the chief source of income as a detective we're speaking of income above and beyond the salary for individual scores yes I would like to make one thing clear we're talking about detective there's a confusion in some people's minds that's the difference between a detective and applying clothes but I wonder if you could make that distinction for us yes a detective is different in plain clothes in that he has a gold shield he is assigned to a detective squad and his area of responsibility is not pertaining only to gambling he has the other crimes and investigations to solve whereas the plain clothesman is a white shield in plain clothes his main

responsibility is in the area of gambling prostitution and by less than the alcohol of pepper's control well and organizationally they operate in two completely separate structures and they're correct they're very distinct in a part from one another and there's a detective division is separate from the uniform force yes and the plain clothesman is a member of the uniform force operating in plain clothes yes that's correct now do you remember your first score as a detective in the 17th squad yes I was on duty one day this is your first day on the job my first day on detective division we were going down to look at a bookmaker who had a complaint on in 48th street between 2nd and 3rd avenue two detectives I was working with the right of the car I remained in the car and they talked

to the individual and they searched them and they didn't come up with any bookmaking records or so forth I had observed the individual standing by a small farm car when they approached them and I asked them if they had looked in the automobile and they said no I got out of the car and I tossed the individual on the side of the keys but when you say tossed the individual I searched yes I retreated to set a keys out of his pocket I went to the automobile I gave the automobile a thorough search and underneath the dashboard I found a large amount of bookmaking in policy records which belonged to the bookmaker we told him he was under arrest we put him in the automobile and he asked could he buy his way out we asked him for a thousand dollars he gave us a thousand dollars and at this time I figured he would split it up evenly amongst the three of us I was informed that the lieutenant would have to have a piece of the action

so I told you this was fellas well if we cut him in we're going to really cut ourselves short as well you're new here it looked good for you if you give the boss a piece of the action they gave me all the money I went into the office and I explained to the boss what happened yes and I gave him a thousand dollars he informed me that there were other people involved other the other money would be channeled down to another superior which was unnamed at the time and whether it was not I never know he gave me back a hundred and thirty dollars is my share and that's how the money was divided the other fellas we see the hundred and thirty dollars each to him after that did you when you had a score did you give it to the lieutenant to divide it first before you wrote I divided it myself after that incident now I'd like you to describe some of the other experience specifically in scores that you

recall as a detected directing your attention specifically to a occasion where there was a fight in a restaurant 58 yes there was an incident in a restaurant where a couple of hoods had gone in and they saw a large commotion and they had a the assault of the major D I got the investigation and we had put in some wire taps and it was an extensive investigation we came up with with no information except a nickname of the perpetrator these were a tax on legal tax legal tax on telephone just a few months had gone by after we closed the investigation and I got in touch with an informant on another matter and he gave me information relating to this case we picked the individual up but we had a nickname for who was actually the person who had committed a crime we brought him into the 17 detective squad and we brought all

the witnesses into a denifier we knew no one would identify this individual because they were afraid and we had him behind an X-ray mirror we paraded about five witnesses in front of the X-ray mirror and as each woman by we told him that he was identified I received a telephone call that someone wanted to see me outside the precinct I went outside the precinct and there was two men outside one of which I knew and he asked me did I have their friend upstairs I said yes I did and he has been identified they said well what can we do in this case I said the case is worth about five thousand dollars we agreed on the price of three thousand which we paid the next evening I went with my partner myself and they gave us three thousand dollars the case was closed because no identification was made on the individual I went back to the detective squad and had the

conversation with the squad commander and I told him we had made a thousand dollars and I gave him three hundred dollars and he said it was good work because the case was kind of old and moldy at this time and there were been no more leads to develop what did the lieutenant say he said his famous saying was when you make a score you can cut me out but don't cut me short you cut me short but don't cut me out excuse me did you recall another incident involving assault there was another incident in the man came out of the station house and he was assaulted by an individual who didn't know he didn't know while he was in the company of this female we went to the female's apartment now we found the individual who was there which I hadn't known slightly when I was increasing we had made a deal

for five hundred dollars so he would not be arrested my partner I went to pick up the money and we got five hundred dollars we had told a boss about this this particular score and the money was divided I later found out that the individual who was in question about being arrested went to the lieutenant and borrowed three hundred dollars of him so he could pay me and this was more or less a test to see that I was still loyal to the lieutenant and splitting up the money that I received in different situations I was involved in you recall an incident involving a crack game oh yes an individual came to me and said that there was some people in New Jersey who wanted me to play golf with them they were all racketeers and hoodlums I went to a country club in New

Jersey to meet these people and to play golf the person that stayed at that time they had some kind of a deal they wanted to work out they have to we finished playing golf we sat down while we're having lunch they discussed the possibility of putting a cramping in the 17th precinct from New Jersey and they wanted to know if I could make the contract these people appeared to be well off well they were quite well office they asked me how far I could reach out to make the contract and to set up the different people who would be involved I said okay I think I could handle the contract and I'll get back to you I contacted the individual in the third division and I told them what we had it would have been a crack game similar to the one we had contrived for our experiences in the nap commission investigations it would have been a daytime game and possibly two or three different locations in the 17th precinct the individual in this the third division said well it'll run about 1500 for the division I said can you contact someone

in the borough yes I will I'll get back to you he went to the borough and he contacted an individual there and then we got the same price in the borough 1500 dollars I told him we could put the squad on for about five or six hundred dollars and the whole nut would be between three and thirty five hundred dollars and three thousand dollars I called the personal contacted me and I met him in a midtown bar and I told him what I have done he said okay that's fine he said your reward at this time would be a new Cadillac or the equivalent whatever you wanted the setting up the deal they were going to find locations and get back to me a week or two later the individual had a heart attack and died and the deal didn't the individual in any the the contact yes the fellow who was going to operate the game had a heart attack and died and the deal never came off your your your only conversation excited from this individual was with somebody from the division yes you have no way of knowing whether he was telling you

truthfully what was going on in the borough no but I could have found out you could have found out who knew you could have found out oh definitely do you recall when you contact as a division the individual the division was that someone that you knew or was that someone you mixed out to now this individual I came on the police department in the same place in the academy I'm sorry I just didn't hear you we came on the police department at the same time we were in the same place in the police academy now do you recall a incident involving a card game oh yes the uh individual who was a heavy loser in the card game came to us and said there's a big blackjack game at a penthouse location in the 17th precinct he wanted us to go up and knock the game over so his paper wouldn't be valuable anymore his look his lost his he owed him nine thousand dollars he said he would he

would begin the game and he would come out at 11 o'clock we positioned ourselves in the hallway of the building and when the door opened up and he came out we went in the person who was operating the game was a normal gambler and there was about 15 or 20 people playing cards at the time and he knew me and he said we make a contract that's okay so we set a lot of price of six hundred dollars for that incident plus a hundred dollars a month for me and my partner now you say a hundred dollars a month for you and your partner just was a personal pickup every uh every month and you just divided it yourself yes but I get the one month even under business have you recall an incident involving an individual with a nickname honey tea bowl uh yes i don't he ran a who is it he's a non criminal and he ran an operation in the

17th precinct the bar on grill without a cabaret license and we had accepted money from him and then he told us that we would see the bartender once a month and get fifty dollars the individual bartender was a real nervous character and we didn't trust him so we didn't take the money but you did in fact take money on occasion from the other from the other individual yes how much i think was a hundred dollars and then fifty dollars after that how i think i think about three or four times now do you recall an incident involving a prostitution and bookmaking operation uh this informant gave us information about a bookmaking operation in midtown and he gave us the location of the bookmaking records in the apartment he had been in there

we got into the apartment and we also discovered that this individual had two girls working in the apartment and we found all the bookmaking records and he asked if we could make a contract with us let me say two girls working in the apartment i mean there were two prostitutes in the apartment but which we didn't we didn't know about at the time when we went in and uh we gave him a figure of three thousand dollars which fifteen hundred dollars were paid now did you discuss scores with other members of the squad that the detective squad yes they were discussed with other people you were close to this with people you were close to though there were some individuals in the squad he wouldn't discuss scores with what the others you would you say there was a difference in the way the scores were discussed in the detective

squad and the way they had operation is discussed in a plain clothes unit yes the uh the scores that only be discussed with the person you're really close to where they're playing close operation everyone discusses the pad you say everybody discusses the pad they freely discuss open conversation yes this isn't true the detective no squad as far as you know it's time you were it no it's not you recall a score that you discussed with people who were in the squad involving a paper stand yes i don't did you relate that please there was an investigation which involved a newspaper stand and three individuals who were arrested for having a nip possession a large amount of untaxed cigarettes the three arrests resulted in the investigation but also the score of ten thousand dollars was made i believe the individuals i'm not sure

i got a suspended sentence in the deal how much was uh who split that ten thousand dollars as far as you know two detectives in the bosses how do you know about that split from conversation with the two men who had the case you have a conversation with the boss i know no so i did but just to review we covered this briefly yesterday uh also dogs but i would like to go over again there were 28 men in that uh in the 17 squad yes and of that how many were actively out making scores in the cards you recall ten and how many of the remaining number did you have conversations with those people about

their willingness or unwillingness to to score people well when you're going to a squad and you work close to individuals for a number of years you know how they how they feel about different situations and uh by conversation with other people you don't approach them well there were some people of the group that were not actively uh making scores who did not do so because they were not fortunate enough to do so and their others because they did not choose to do so is that correct those are the two categories yes and how would you break down the remaining uh well there was a part of me two or three individuals who would do nothing as far as scores would go in the squad how did the remaining number maybe about 65 percent would take the money if it was given to them

in other words that last category wouldn't ask a citizen for anything what if it was offered would take it no if i made the score and i'd give him the money he would take it well actually do you live pretty well when you were detected in the 17th precinct yes why did you go about that well the uh the area this has a lot of uh restaurants and bars and cabaret and so forth and they were very good to the detected in the 17th squad these are by and large pretty expensive restaurants yes and um did you uh were you provided well just tell us where were you provided do you want anything else in the meals well in these restaurants uh when you went in as the guest of the owner there was uh nothing left to be desired when you finished eating those cocktails and goodful ring drinks i love them when you do that once or twice a week

give a special time that you would go into these places yes uh we would try to stay awake in the restaurants doing the real busy hours we would try to get in light between six and six thirty and be done eating by the time uh we uh paying clients how would come in did you find that uh your experience was similar to that in the youth squad yes you had the same kind of relationship i worked in the 17th precinct in the youth squad at a particular time too the jolman phillips testifying for the third day well from the christmas list the clerical man had made another list for the money that would be

distributed from the squad to other agencies and other people in the police department uh this money was funneled down to uh fingerprint bureau the bridge man in court the borough commander district manager there was a practice at that time where the bridge man in court would be given a christmas gift he caused the cases when you were in court this is what was that magistrate yes uh the said before the borough commander the district district commander and achieve the detectives and you uh mentioning uh the bridge man he also received money and when you were in court is that right yes at that time yes not much for what uh most times uh i would get two dollars to call the case or if there was a lawyer involved he would give him five dollars to

have the case called to get out of court but when you say to have the case called and take an out of order yes or what happened to you if you didn't pay the money or at that time uh there would have been a long involved wait i also thought there uh came a time when you were removed from detectives but could i was are we through with it i'd like to clarify now these categories detectives you you spoke up there were some who would actively go out and and get money yes some who would accept it from you if you gave it to them or anyone else was giving it yes and there were some who wouldn't participate at all nothing whatsoever no if you offered the money they wouldn't take it they wouldn't take it but now those people would be in any fear that they would turn you in if you oh no they wouldn't turn you in that they

just wanted nothing to do with that sometimes situation but they would they would never turn you in now but they were aware it was going on in your judgment yes now the christmas bless with these people participate in the christmas yes so they did now you mentioned some of the christmas money went to the other uh areas of the department that you mentioned is that your personal knowledge did you deliver it or is that just talk to other people it's just from a list I saw that the chloropermin had made up I don't know if the money was ever delivered or not as far as your personal knowledge is concerned the clerical man could have kept it yes he could like you did with that yes for that to return to present he could have kept the money there came a time that they're not off she felt when you were returned to the uniform force from the detective yes that's correct but one more thing but your belief is that it was yes it was my belief I was doing a night duty which entails working from 5 p.m. to 8 a.m. in the morning

and we had received instructions by our superior officer to make an inspection in the license premises which would be a bar on grill would just be a routine inspection check the license pack stamp on a jukebox and various other small things make out of the pop and form make a record in your memorandum book and that will be the end of it it was about a quarter of four in the morning and we had forgotten about this inspection we had paid we were passing by a little small bar on grill on first avenue which I had been in many times my partner was never in there and we stopped at the mega inspection we walked in I knew the bartender for several years said hello introduce my partner he said he'd like to have a drink as is now I'll have a club sold and I know what he had a ginger ale or something and there were two individuals at the end of the bar which my partner recognized he told me it's those guys are from a PC's office they were young

young police officers maybe on a job six months so I call the bartender down that Pete be careful they might make a pension here tonight we walked out in back to the office one of the individuals from the PC that was walked out behind us left his partner in the bar the partner that the bartender went over to the other police officer and told him that I had told him that the friend of his who we was with was from a PC's office he paid for his drinks walked out we received a communication the report to the station hours from a camp and the camp and informed us that he was going to drop us in a detective division because we identified his men in the bar and we were dropped from the detective division when you were dropped from the detective division where were you assigned 25th precinct and we've scrapped it before but what are the time finds of the 25th precinct it encompasses

110 street to about 135 fifth avenue to the east river and how long were you what when did this take place uh August 1965 and you've been in the 25th precinct on that time until you're transferred to to Plank Road six years how'd you feel when you were flopped I had anticipated and quitting the police department but I had too much time involved I had 10 years so I figured well I may still stick it out and try to make the best of it what kind of a precinct is the uh is the two five what what is it like described as the kind of law violations but it's known as a heavy money precinct the 25th lot of gambling activity

what kind of gambling activity what making in policy street gambling open operations how about crime in that area? Lodge crime area very very busy precinct during the first year you were there did you involve yourself in taking anybody not for the first year now I didn't do anything for the first year why not I didn't want to get myself involved and I just didn't want to bother going around studying all that same stuff all over again did uh the police officers up there were they aware of your reputation yes they were there was some fellas who I had come under job with who were in the 25th precinct did you have conversations with them about the subject of the money available in the uh two five yes I did it was money there there was money to be made from bookmaking policy operations

and so forth now did you take steps to clear the way for yourself when you came to the two five yes when I was transferred to the 25th precinct uh a friend of mine told me I'll call up the roll call man for you and tell him that you're okay I went up and it's okay well that I was a decent fellow to do business with uh I went up to the roll call man and his assistant introduced myself and he says oh yes your friend called so yes we discussed how he knew him and how I knew him I gave each one of the year a roll call man ten dollars and I said take care me because I just got flopped out of the squad they said okay we'll take care of you now were you uh walking a post at that time or were you in that precinct? I was walking mostly and I filled in the sector car in occasion and when you went in the sector

car did you uh discuss with your partner your willingness or unwillingness to take money at that time I tell myself I don't want to do anything right now that's what if you wanted to you can do what I'm not with you was it necessary for you when you went into a sector car at that time to make sure that you told the partner that you didn't want to uh be involved you had to make yourself known yes because otherwise we'd uh go ahead and know of course the business and uh and become a pro yes now as a foot patrolman in the 25th precinct is it desirable to have a single post or to be moved around well it's better if you can uh work in a single post letting them move around because there are some desirable posts at that time it's changed now in some respects

did you have uh any of the choice spots on occasion yes well did you say anything to roll call man about the assignment you were having? uh not at that time now I was given the uh choice post at uh at the inopportune times where in some instances the gaming activity would be during the daytime and I would work the post like 12 to 8 well did you uh did you learn pretty quickly the location of various gambling spots in your area yes how long did it take you to get to be familiar with the gambling operations there well the whole precinct I guess about six months and how open were these gambling operations how easy was it for a police officer to uh find out the location of a particular gambling operation

uh any police officer with a little bit of experience could find locations without too much difficult this is WRVR in the york live coverage of the animation hearings investigating yes still many of the operations still in the business they run down starting at the upper end of the precinct uh 130th Street in Manusneria in Weaving 130 second in Manuson would be uh red janssen 125th in Manuson sunny Tucker uh going down a lower end uh 115th Street in Fifth Avenue Fritz Brown further on down with the uh the fat man he works 11th Street in Manuson Avenue uh Raymond and 124th in Lexington Avenue going through the reach now would be uh Dickey on 124th and 2nd Chico 123rd and 2nd Fabi 120th Street in Second Avenue

Big Sam 112th and 2nd Vanning Joe and Social Club 117th and Second Avenue on the further on the east side uh making the choir 115th Street in First Avenue the fish 115th Street in First Avenue was either 115th Street in First Avenue Fuck a low 116th Sammy 116th in First going further east on the east side would be uh Louis Fax I guess that's about those are the ones that I'm familiar with Where's Louis Fax's operation 117th Street in Pleasant Avenue But there are other individuals engaged in that same area in the gambler and he has quite a few partners in his operation he's the boss How long have these gamblers been operating in this area in the business I've been up there

There was at least five years Right to your knowledge did they go uh beyond that So in some cases they go way beyond that but to my exact knowledge Five years and better or these people known gamblers that are identified in the police records as uh as such I think 95% of the ones I gave you were known gamblers And when you make say known gamblers that there's a file in the police house I mean if Preferably legitimate official file which lists Persons who are known to be gamblers of the this is a destination by the police department for those Engaging heavily a gaming activities to be known as a non-demo and the file is maintained for the use of Police officers police officers in their in their enforcement activities. Yes to identify these individuals Now you had had experience with gambling operations and COBS and a sixth division is that right

Yes, that's what you're playing close to Will you Was this similar or did it surprise you to see these operations going on this opening? No, it didn't surprise me They What was the difference if any between the the operations gambling in the two five and two eight and three two Well, they have a different way to operate in the two five They're open gaming operations, but not as wild as they were in the twenty eight and thirty second precinct There's a lot of telephones in the twenty fifth precinct where the bets are taken on telephones It's just not as Let's say while as it is in the twenty eight and thirty second. It's a different type of operation What individual operates

Virtually is not a shot of a phone though. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. He has two telephones on the corner. This is private office You found that operation work These two paid telephones on a hundred and seventeen street in Pleasant Avenue And he does always business on these two telephones. He's there all day long Him and his associates answering phones making callbacks And one day the phone was out of order someone had cut the Receiver up during the night And I think within the hour the phone company was there putting a receiver on Our other people are allowed to use that phone Well, not really. Yeah, they have a kind of a concession. How did I say? What happens if you want to just go and make a telephone call? Well, I think you kind of be a little embarrassed. They wouldn't let you in the phone booth. You have to feel with their operation You Now you're aware of the pay off to foot patrolman in the 25th precinct

At that time Throughout the period just describe it throughout the five-year period that you've been there Well, I guess we were talking were we about about the first year or so that you were there I want you to tell us first about that As I said before I didn't engage in any illegal activities for about the first year. I was in the 25th precinct And I was aware that other fellas were of their making money And then it came a time where I was assigned to a I was assigned to a sector car with another partner And I had decided then to resume this practice of making money At the time you were assigned to a sector car? Yes But were you aware of the way of how much foot patrolman got and what areas and how they were paid? The gambling activities in the 25th precinct were all paid by the month. There were no daily

gambling, gambling payoffs And then the individual was assigned not to a steady post but they were moved around to the precinct because that was the practice of the commanding officer to make you move around so you would not be able to establish any kind of a paid But it was accomplished by being assigned to the footpost for the first few days of the month making the pickups and involving gambling And then it didn't matter where you were at the rest of the month as long as you were on the post to be any of the month Payoffs for me at the first of the month In a round of between the first and the first anywhere around the year And how much money would be made if you were on at the right time As the right times involving all the operations you could make 150 dollars a month And how did you get the choice spots on foot patrolman? You had to pay the roll call man

$5 per assignment and sometimes it might work out a package deal where you could Get a post maybe for three days or four days or possibly filling a sector car for a week For members on vacation you could fill in for him Now Aside from gambling what other Sources of income were there for the put patrolman in the two five Well, they had bought the club's card games Social clubs And both daggers Oh, daggers. What is a pub? That's a Spanish grocery store Well A lot of the Spanish grocery stores Particularly well, they pull them all bold day because even though they were regular grocery stores And then in lieu of a Sabbath violation they would pay the patrolman every Sunday Well, we better explain in other words it's against the law to do certain things

You can open a store for certain reasons on Sunday, correct? They have these archaic laws involving grocery stores where they only allow to be open at certain hours Not a lot of so canned goods or fresh meat and other laws like that which really Should have been taken off the books years ago to eliminate this type of corruption So you get A story that's open on Sunday, a delicatessen or a day day You can tell you how much I love them On a Sunday between two and three down let's push the door Well Just to get the name straight as I understand it then but DeGa was originally the name of a Generic name for Spanish grocery stores. Yes, and they originally were subject to this No, all all closures 12 but the name of originally with the DeGa and now You call in the parlance of the DeGa even though it may be called a mobile daggers in any Could be Spanish or Irish or anything else How many but DeGas were there and you find that how many but DeGas were there and you're

In your area Well, I don't know how many though in the precinct, but when I had a second I think it was about 45 45 in your sector alone. Yes and The foot patrolman at that time Would pick up from each one Well, it's all according if he was assigned to the post He would pick it up, but if you had the sector and there's no footmen around you would pick all them up in your sector There's the second car would pick up from every spot all 45. Yes And you get two to three dollars from each one. Yes And this would be each Sunday every Sunday on the eight to four On the eight to four. Yes, how long will it take to make those 45 stops quite a while You're trying to do what else? Well, Sonny's a quiet day What happened if you weren't working, Sonny? If you weren't working, Sonny? Did you try to arrange it so you weren't working, Sonny? Well, there are times when you're rough, but not too many people took off on Sonny

Now you talked about the roll call man being paid for a choice spot The choice post Did you also have to pay to get into a sector car? I did yes Well, I mean first generally was it understood that you would pay to get into a sector car? Well, it would be like a courtesy if you were I was looking for to get into a sector car and I made the fact known And they know me and I knew them and they know if I were assigned to a sector car there would be money involved I was assigned to a sector car and I gave the roll call man 30 dollars