Late, Late Lecture; Unconscious Motives in Committing Crimes

[Noise] [Room noise] [Tap on wood] I'm very glad indeed to be back here. Continue a line of thought some of us began together a few months ago. Now the last lec- the first lecture in this series the previous lecture was a review of the way this this law of the the the the [cough in audience] some of the criminal expression occurred in this- in in this country at which- at the moment uh was was focused upon the assassination of the- of our beloved president. Which we hope might have one, one, as one result some improvement in the way we protected ourselves against people who could who do not or can not or do not seem to be able to control themselves. [Pause]

And I said that the, an illuminating aspect of this this was our own apathy about the matter. That the people don't seem to care, they care for the moment. Th- Did I mention that is true that there are a lot of important things that people don't seem to care about. The destruction of natural resources, the abuse of some people's civil rights, numerous other things that we can list. The pollution of the water, pollution of the air, and so on. So that as a result there are a number of people who worry about those things. I am one of those worriers. I'm worried about all those t things and I think that you are worried about them. But there gets to be a limit of how many things people can worry about. We knew that- we know that there are a lot of things wrong. We think, "well surely someone has be looking out for that," well as a matter of fact not many people are looking after it.

So I ask, what is the reason for this apathy? For this, rather, this indifference. I was at a luncheon today they- where um um a very distinguished lawyer said he was explaining- that h-he was saying, "we should pity the poor lawyers who were appointed by the court to um offer to to undertake the defense of um young offenders," particularly in smaller towns, not in big cities like this, but in smaller towns because the people in the town immediately think, "well if he is willing to defend that rascal. He must be- you know, set a thief to catch a thief- and all the rest. He must be be full of murderous impulses himself if he is willing to defend the murder." I uh, I told him that um [clears throat] my experience the prosecutor seemed a little more imbued with murderous impulses than the defenses would rule. And uh, furthermore, this shouldn't be held against 'im. As- all the rest of us have murderous impulses too so why not admit it. Are we going to be so hypocritical that we don't

think anybody has a murderous impulse until he gets to defending an an offender who does have- no, not really, but there is something curious about the public attitude and I thought we might spend a little time um examining what it is. I thought of all sorts of ways of looking at it, but since I am a psycho- -analyst very much committed to the [cough in audience] validity of the psycho analytic theory and psychoanalytic sc- science. I thought we might uh, see if we can apply some of the knowledge that psychological science and psychoanalytic science have added to to human knowledge in the past 50 or 100 years. S-See the legal pro- procedures mostly based on a- assumptions about human contact that were correct several hundred years ago to to state it conservatively.

Now to psychiatrists, this is if you would like your house according to liking principle several hundred years ago or as if you would put up with the plumming of several years ago. In science the new additions, we have an utterly different notion about human motivation today, than we did when all the uh doctrines of men as ray and intent and uh and and all the rest of it been formulated, yet these remained these- these legal theories remained quite untouched by our- uh by our pres- present knowledge. Uh but not to- not to k keep [pause] reproaching the um the non change. The law, let me go back to the wha- to the non change the public clings to why doesn't the public want to change? The lawyers want to be reactionary or uh or or uh frozen in uh 200 years ago. Let 'em! What about the public- the public doesn't want to change?

No. I don't think so. ?I go to? lawyers take the lead. In fact the leaders in such changes have have occurred. I spent Saturday and Sunday with a group of 'em. Judge Biggs, uh uh federal court and Pennsylvania and a number of other leading jurist and these men are eager to see certain changes take place. And are trying to get these placed, but they don't get any support from you. I thought maybe we could duh- do a play with a little- play a little game here. Suppose we take one psychoanalytic concept that applies each individual and then apply it to the public. See if it works, now the concept I have in mind is the one of resistance. Know that uh Freud, was not the first doctor to observe patients didn't always cooperate. But he's

he gave it a name. He says it peculiar thing that many patients seem to fight against cure. They don't want the doctor to cure them. And what's in the meaning in this? [Paper rustling] What is uh- what is the um- uh why why don't they want to give up the disease? Uh I noticed when thinking about this, Freud, like you, can recall originally illness was conceived like like like crime. Like a ?bad lust? something intrinsically in human beings, so remember that in the new testament there are numerous passages about- that reads more or less like this, one beautiful descriptions actually of the thinking of that time. In a rather, ?late? and quite civilized culture. The man who had a clear- a spirit of an unclean devil,

cried out with a loud voice, "Let me alone what have you to do with me, Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us?" Now this idea here that the devil can speak out occasionally, if He sees somebody worthy of his ?address? and explain that he just- gut- first right rights on this fellow and is going to continue to torture 'im and make 'im behave in this peculiar way. Uh Of this- at this time- certain laws were in operation- which are still in operation. Some of the same legal philosophies at the time still holds. When we had trials at that time, the prosecution and defense and we had sentences to capital punishment and less if you remember it. All I want- to call attention to is though, th-that the idea that something is in the ?felt?. He was- if it wasn't for this something in him, this evilness, this spirit why the fellow would behave alright. And you know that,

this general principle was revived in the middle ages. Some of the doctors at the time knew better but the general public can- maintained for nearly 1500 years, the general idea that people who were bad were bad because something inside of them made them bad. Now that this something inside of them could be a devil or it could just be evil intent or it can be a witch and so forth. Now this was peculiarly uh- this especially emphasized and people's behavior was strange. Be- Behave- people's behavior was was understandable and they regarded merely as being- uh overcome by temptation. But at their behavior was very strange and they were possessed of devils. And hundreds of thousands of people through some strange logic were tortured and killed because they harbored these evil spirits.

This is late as 1500, about the middle of the 16th century a doctor came along and said to the priest and to the people, "Look, you are wrong about this those are not devils in those people. This is a kind of sickness they're not devil's at all. A devil would be more subtle. These are- these are- these are conditions of illness and we doctors treating them than burning them and uh- um, getting rid of them. And so the distinction between illness and bed- capital punishment at that time, was of the purpose of getting rid uh- largely the main punishments of the time, for the purpose of getting rid of these people who allowed themselves to get infected. Now, the the the idea that there's something bad in the individual that must be gotten out, has not gone out of medicine. It's just become highly refined and highly purified, you see. After the- after the qu- cri- tor-

torture out the devils, they began- they resumed an old- uh an ancient practice a ?purgeation?. They could purge it out by tremendous laxative or they could bleed it out. So people were given great were were bled often times all in the- all in the cause of treatment of course, by letting something out of them by getting something bad that was in them, out of them, through some physical means. Well, um, then uh um so, but but in the meantime meantime those those who did not have the devils in them, but merely badness were were of course, executed. They were executed in rather grandiose ways. The righteous indignation of the law was supported by christian theology. Wages a sinner death. And so, as you know, the early part of the 19th century where there were hundreds of kinds of offenses, I should say, punishable by

death in the terms of the English common law. Public hangings were of course gala events didn't have television in those days, people had to have scenes to entertain them and this was quite exciting and since the supply of condemned prisoners were copious. Once they stopped uhhh the frightful deportation practices, there were more than 160 crimes uh only a few years after that and so many executions would take a a a many- uh ah I mean, punishable crimes many executions would take place simultaneously and you know the rest of it. I uh, copied this out of out of the book that I found rather interesting. The prisoners were generally driven in an open cart from Newgate to Tyburn. One stop was made at s- sa- Saint ?Suplekers? Church where the condemned were given nose gaze by the clergy man and another at the pole for a final drink. [Stutters] C-curious, you see, for us amps- its almost incomprehensible kind of, of of of of hum- of human- of

humaneness. At least give you a bouquet to be hanged with, at least give you a drink before you get your head chopped off. The crowds were so great that the journey of two and a half half miles from the prisoner to the gallows took several hours. Executions themselves were incredibly brutal, w-women condi- convicted of murder of a husband were usually burned. The man guilty of high treason were cut down, when sell- semi conscious and were disemboweled. Sympathetic friends were permitted to assist in securing a speedy death, by pulling on the legs of the victim. Whereas in those day, you know, they didn't drop them down through, they they allowed them more or less to be choked slowly to death like uh Hitler did his his uh umm those plot people. ?Peeps? of the uh drops didn't come generation til about 1785. Uh pieces of the hangman's noose were often sold as therapeutic agents, particularly for cases of epilepsy. Little children clustered about the gallows in hopes of securing some sweat from the freshly hanged body to help cure them of skin tuberculosis. Uh

well, now one of the principles of this devil position, idea. Continued to be applied for for for a long time but it became more subtle. It no longer think the devil is in the people, but we still think both- both in regard to- in regard- I mean the public acts as if it thought that uh many uh [paper rustling] fa- 'fenders as well as people with mental illness have something bad in them that must be gotten out. now you say all this has to do with uh resistance- I am coming to that now. I- If there is something bad in them, the reason that they could be be burned and otherwise punished, because the feeling was that they themselves must harbor these bad spirits. They must- they wouldn't be the host of this evilness if they didn't want to. Now you you you hear this all the time when you hear uh uh people talk about something they read in the paper.

"I hope they get it-" "He is a thoroughly bad man," There is no such thing actually at all. "But he is a vicious character! They ought to get him. Nothing- that death is too good for him. Why why he ought to be- we have to revive the whipping stake. Why-" and uh so forth and so on. All of this means a terrific the aroused of great feelings of hate towards somebody that is imbued great wickedness and this wickedness someway or another, is suppose to be something he has elected, something that characterizes him, something he is entertaining and holding onto and he's the host to this devil. Whether he's actually become a part of him or not. Now it's- this- it's something like the idea of resistance, that the patient holds onto his illness when she just wants to be sick, well she just- she just uh- enjoys her sicknesses. Why her symptoms are the most interesting thing in her life. She tells everyone about them. Or uh uh uh uh h- he- he- he could get over that if he wanted to and so forth.

Now this idea that the person fights against giving up the affliction ah um um mm- 'course w- what Freud said uh must have some reasons other than these obvious ones. Sure uh uh uh the symptom has- may have- uh the patient patient may hang onto it for certain reasons. It may be he is getting compensation for it or maybe he is an object of special pity because of it. But there's more to this. Freud said, well what about the unconscious motivations? Why should anybody hang on to something wh-which is painful. That should um that that causes him uh uh that he pays the doctor to help him get rid get rid of. He said, well the uh meaning uh because the meaning to the

patient of the symptom are quite different from the apparent meaning to the outside world. To the outside world this something from which he suffers, but a symptom may- ay having a great usefulness for him in ways that you don't know anything about. Maybe this symptom- maybe this illness exists to preclude some a much more serious thing happening. Some people, sometimes doctors will treat a patient with- uh- uhm,a lot of cases come to my mind, I start to tell about a particular case, but let me keep it general. Patients will have peptic ulcer, indigestion, or some kind or other and that becomes very severe sometimes they just must have an operation or they must have uh some other dietary treatment for it. Alright they get the treatment, and ulcer goes away and they often get deeply depressed so depressed they have to quit work. Uh this happens o- in a- in our practice very often we doctors are very familiar with this idea that

when you take away one symptom from some people and they immediately have to get another symptom. Well you say, well why is that? The answer is that this is because of a symptom has certain unconscious values which are even greater than that cost of the symptom and pain. Well, what does all that have to do with with the public. Well the obvious answer is, if the public keeps so still and so quiet and the public will remain in ?department? while somebody runs around- chase a a girl a a screaming girls and stabs her, the public must have some curious a reason for being so apathetic, so indifferent. The public must have some great need for the persistance of crime. Now what is the unconscious reasons than that we have to have crime going on around us. Why do we want crime to persist. We say we don't want crime, b-but our behavior sshows that we seem to want it

and need it. Well, [pause] [paper rustling] of course, one obvious reason it'll adjust itself to you is the fact that, if other people, if if if a cri- if a certain people can labelled as criminals caught doing certain things. Then we to some extent, can make a scapegoat out of them we can say "oh well, I sure, I may have cheated a little on my income tax and I violated the speed speed law now again. And um, well I have done a few things that uh call for- I am not a criminal! I did not go and steal a bicycle out of the store the other day." No, you didn't do that. But but the the fact that somebody else did makes you think that's a terrible thing go and take a take books, did you know he walked into double days and took a book off the

counter. Why, she didn't pay for that book. Why isn't that the darndest thing you ever heard that woman is a thief. She's a thief. But you know, I- well I won't tell you just what I did but the things I didn't wouldn't count. Oh that was simply- I was borrowing it anyway. [Audience laughs] And uh, now, now I have to caricature this a little bit cause I wanna give you the idea that must- that all of us. I - the notion that is- there are certain people with criminal tendencies and certain that all the rest of us are just by the grace of god we don't have those criminal tendencies and those devils that have them ought to be takin' care of and if ?Mr. Cross? would be on the job, she would take care of them and not worry so- about that, she knows about that- but- but- but but the point is we are all imbued with these these criminal tendencies. The the the question is not just how to control external violence. We say, well the lawyers and the judges and the police ?does that? take care of external violence. We will take care of our own internal violence.

Well, now, we're apparently doing a pretty good job. Most of us sitting here quietly, I don't see any crimes being committed at the moment. [Audience laughs]. But we've got a lot of help don't forget. First place, we are being watched.Somebody all around. [Audience laughs louder]. Second place, we all on good behavior. Because here we are, here in Columbia and we listen to a lecture on something supposedly intellectual is right- [Audience laugh] this is a special occasion. But wait til 10 o' clock or 2 o' clock in the morning or 7 o' clock tomorrow morning, you know what I mean. Then comes the thought, about this or about that and uh these while it's true that out of a routine a bringing up up a routine of of social conduct, in other words, you and I don't experience the sort of temptations that some people do. We got to bear in mind to some extent this question of awe, honor, honest. After a while you get into point economically where it isn't such- there isn't so much

necessity for taking something. The the economic pressures aren't so great the kind of pressures on you and I I say this despite the fact that the whole nation was shocked only a year ago by people- very wealthy man who found guilty- uh of a most a obviously criminal conspiracy to which they were a sentenced- that were found guilty and sentenced and people who didn't need the money. No, money is not a very important motive for crime. As a matter, and now I come to that presently, I wanna talk for the moment about violence. Just about violence the subject of violence generally because there is so much violence obviously in the world. What is violence? Do we like it or don't we? Uh beca- viol- violence frightens us. Violence- if there was going to be something violent happen here there'd be a certain number of people quickly out of the room, another to drawback, others would say, "I don't wanna see that," and so forth. And still others would say, "what's going on? Let's get those-

to 'em. What is it? Uh did he hit her or what happened over there?" [Audience chuckles] so for sudden fascination that something violent is happening. Now what is this violence that wha- what what do we mean by it? A police officer was was telling us. That uh at at uh Sunday- Saturday, at this this convention this meet- this uh correctional meeting that one of the great problems of the police is, they are called in the middle of the night. They come into an apartment, here's a woman lying on the floor, bloody and battered. Vomitting, her uh one eye black and maybe a a tooth knocked out. Hear children around, screaming. One of her children has been been uh uh been slapped til his little face is is is uh is is- is- is- is red and sore. The police can not make- safely make an arrest, why? 'Cuz the police can't prove that the man did it and he might be making a false arrest and so the police- the the

police have to warn 'im. As this policeman said, "I I I often wondered what- how many times after I've come from a horrible scene of violence like that and told him now you better be careful, quiet down, now don't have anymore of this. I often wondered what really went on and how long it was before a murder took place. Uh you see uh eh I don't know if you know the kind of handicaps that the police work under. You and I think, well these police are tough they can just go in and arrest them. But they can't go in go in there and arrest them. There are certain technical devices where by the- sometimes can. And now you're cross with us doctors and you should be because so often we've seen children beaten up, their arms broken in a ah a eh gah a a all kinds of evidence that they've been treated this way that well why didn't you- why didn't you have those people arrested? We are not policeman, and there is very serious buisness saying,

"Well I believe that so and so beat up such and such a child. That would making a pretty serious accusation for them or are you making an accusation about somebody who's consulted professionally that this is ?ticking? point had been many doctors have been afraid to report such incidences. So that- that's being corrected fortunately I think many places but this is an example of things that the public doesn't know. Meanwhile violence is pretty popular, now let's face it whether you want to own it is part of your uh program of life or not, your suppressed program of this ?tendency? Is all all around us. It frightens us, it horrifies us it it disgusts us, but it intrigues us, it challenges us, it excites us, it may even give us pleasure. How many murders- uh one of the judges said the other other day, the same meeting, while um, said that during the weekend when the Times reported three murders, there were 80 seven murders on television that weekend uh because my son counted them.

And uh uh besides the 87 murders there were so many beatings up and there were so many shootings besides that. The newspapers know this, they play up the dramatic essence of violence often of to the extinction of far more extensive but less violent damage. Words like crash, explosion, wreck, assault, raid, murder, avalanche, rape, and seizure evoke pictures of the eruptive deva- devastation in which we can not turn away. Exploiting this fact, the headlines often impute violence metaphorically, a more peaceful occupation. Relations are ruptured, ties broken, ?aberration? collapses, pro- proposal is killed, the football team is mauled, smashed, ?rotted?, smothered, gouged, hammered, toppled, trounced. I know 20 or 30 other words. [Audience laughs] W-why these words? Now th-this sounds fine and all like somebody making a big noise. Shooting off firecrackers. Let's make this rough and noisy and tough and

violent. Let's get some of this uh uh this uh- this animal spirits out. Into some- into some words, and into some concepts, something being broken. Not created, you know, nothing beautiful about any of this. This is all smash, break, grind, and all the rest of it. I me- and as I say on television and in the movies you see the clubbing and the beating, the torturing, and the slugging and the shooting and all the rest of it of course always always without any blood. It's always dishonestly portrayed because you're not gunna hear- you never hear any of the moans under the- uh the the the sorta thing that that we doctors here in the- in in the accident room uhhh f-few uh- one weekend in an accident room you know would cure some television addicts of their- [audience laughs] of of- ways you could see some of the this sort of ri- tearing of flesh, and breaking of bones and smashing of faces and

of course, even if they do we have with foam rubber glove or wherever it is they do in those pictures you know th- the the the very dishonesty of this riles me in some way. If they are not going to break somebody's nose nose with it, some actor just better be brave and let his nose be broken. [Audience laughs] This- this concept pretending to break people's nose- what's the idea. Why would they even wanna pretend to break people's faces for, gouge out people's eyes. What is so interesting about that? Wha- Why are you so intrigued? Now these companies are smarter than I am about public opinion, and if this is what the public wants, why on earth should they get rid of crime? Well crime is free, they think whereas the television costs about three or four hundred dollars. Ya read about crime and just- or you can get a ?mickey 'splain? or some of these other books would tell all of this in very vivid language and you can read about it, well uh [paper rustle] not only that we we decry the crudities of ?Nero's? day

when the public clamor for public exhibitions of strangling, crushing, dis- disemboweling, stabbing, lacerating, so forth, torture, wild animals, and all the rest of it. And we shudder and turn away when we hear about the- the terrible things the English did. Uh letting bulldogs eat the lips off of bulls and the rest of it, but many of us that think, well fighting might be an interesting little diversion and there are several million people in this con- on- in the western hemisphere that do think so and we continue our own spectacles such as boxing. Of all forms of so-call sport, the only one which has its primary direct object, the physical injury of the contestants. To quote the courageous Father Kenneth Murphy, "people who pay to see a man hurt, the the time the crowd comes alive is when the man is hit hard over the- hard over the head and when his mouth piece flies out and blood squirts out of his eyes or nose and when he wobbles under the attack

and his pursuer continues to smash at him will full ?max? impact. Not only the bloodiness and the ugliness of it, but the actual neurological damage is something which concerns neurologists and psychiatrists like the good doctor ?Good Mocker? and myself cuz many of these same people get more than minimal brain injury and have this brain injury rest of their lives and show the consequences of it. In other words that the the thing we spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to have treated in a- from a- not a ?mobile? action we hire to have done in a public spectacle and people pay a lot of money to watch it. Now this violence, crude over purposely directed violence exhibited, permitted, encouraged, and vicariously enjoyed must reflect something inside the human being. Something about his psychology, is our own violence thus

vicariously discharged. That is is a man better for having seen a very gory bull fight. Do prize fight patrons go home refreshed, reconstituted, calmer, and better in control of themselves, better able to keep temperatures to keep calm and so forth, kinder more self control. I let you answer that, I don't know but I doubt. [Paper rustling]. We see that in a way uh the the real- I ask that question because the real point is,how is violence controlled? If we encourage ourselves by scenes like that if we allow crime to go on because of our apathy because of our indifference to the uh because of our neglected of ways to change it that we could do then w-w-what should we conclude um uh i- a

have we have we have we got to establish a gladiator combats or something like it. On the other hand would it be possible to substitute, let's say football and other such sports which are pretty rough and pretty violent but which are not really quite as destructive. Should we go in the direction of more public spectacles if we gonna keep up the merry little game of executions here and there in the United States, should they be made public spectacles so everybody can see the violence and not have to be quite so violent himself and do these help of- control individuals own violence. I don't think they do and in my book, "The Vital Balance," we try to show that the so- so-call mental illness is only a very severe struggle to control ones self, to control one's own violence they might say that the various stages of nervous illness are various

degrees of of v- v- various de- uh various degrees of uh diminished self control. [audience cough] The the devices are- the the devices are we call symptoms are methods individuals use to keep their own violence in control and if the- if the- machinery begins to slip a little bit and begins to have a hard time it begins to to be labor as an engine would in a car, it begins to labor because increased tensions. And there are certain symptoms, there are certain evidences of this. And these evidences increase in degree and change a little bit in time as the tension gets greater. And that's what that this book, the vital balance, is all about. What I want to talk about tonight, in particular, because the title I think on your program said I would, well some of the unconscious uh some of the some of the way- some of the forms of that uh uh uh that

violence some of the unconscious determinants of the particular violence that you see in offenders. You see that everyone of us psychiatrist who sees [pause] a a criminals, people who are about to be made criminals by being found guilty or who have been found guilty as I think they should. People people like doctor ?Good Mocker?, who see offenders. We are constantly aware that there's a great discrepancy between what the individual does and what he thinks he does or what he thinks he intended to do or what the public thinks he intend to do. The most astonishing fact is- you see, every criminal, if you if you apply this yourself. You must apply it to him, every criminal has his symptoms in order to keep something worse. You have this sick headache and p- perhaps uh ra-ra-rather than having a complete collapse or uh rather than hit the ?boss?, doctor- mister- doctor professor Graetz brings out in his book, on van- the van- uh van- The Symbolism of Van Gogh. The uh

the- there's a meaning for uh uh the the uh str- strange features of of these pictures which are no longer strange when you understand the letters and the light and the thinking and the philosophy Van Gogh had at the time as uh Dr. Graetz works out in his book, much better for for Gr- for Van Gogh to cut off his own ear than to cut off a man's head for example. If if he must do some cutting better for him to cut this way than to cut this way. And uh uh all symptoms can be looked at in in this as as having this saving grace- having this saving function. Well then we must look at the offenders behavior that way a little bit. First of all you must realize that the- the thing with you- the offender might be better ways to manage it. But the offender does what is for him, apparently, the best thing at the time. The best way to solve the problem at the moment.

Well you would say that's just stupidity then. Not necessarily because stupidity uh uh the- a wise decision involves seeing straight, you have to assume that people see straight before you can say that their judgment is poor. The astonishing fact and everyone who knows criminals will every, s-s-scientist will tell you this, that the obvious end that is is the crime committed by the offender is rarely uh rarely corresponds to his motive. Let me put it another way, because this is the most important single thing I like to leave with you. The committing of a crime, especially the effect of a- of a violent act. Let's put it that way, the effect of a violent act, the ?corpus selective? for example, the the dic- the the actual disappearance from the earth a of of another human being or the acquisition of money

or cer- certain sexual gratification, these are not not the determining goals- oh I I wanna say of any crime. Let's say of- of most any crime. Even though the offender admits things says they are, for the criminal is driven to an act of violence by very complex factors and unconscious drives. In which he knows nothing about, or he very dimly understands them. Anymore than you do, why you do some funny things. The public thinks it knows, the newpaper reporter sus- suspect they know his motives. The prosecuting attorney is sure he knows. And sometimes the criminal agrees with one or all of them. But it is a matter of fact they are all wrong, it's a rule. ?Elected? behavior in all cases that choice of greater good or lesser evil. This is true of the saint and it's true of the sinner. A particular criminal act in such a choice made by the offender under pressure.

It was and is the lesser evil as he sees it, it's his clumsy attempt to preserve the integrity of his personality, to save his life perhaps. Hence, violence can be a flight from madness and madness can be a flight from violence. Murder can be committed to avert suicide and suicide can be committed to avert murder. Often is. Last night, I uh, gave a few of these cases to the academy of medicine. Not much detail cuz I wasn't there long enough. But I have a uh chief of cases to illustrate this. I realize that in many doc- as this will be- as the- as Saint Paul says, "as them doctors are a stumbling block and into the lawyers are playing foolishness." And I ex- and I just expect you to believe all of it on first hearing of his first hearing. And I and I wanna tell you a few inst- illustrations. You see- no one robs a bank to get

money. No one rapes a woman merely for sexual gratification. No one murders another only for the purpose of eliminating him. Yet that is the assumption, in the official procedures and in the kind of management the he receives subsequent of conviction. I ge- little reflection will convince most any reasonable person, the wealthy won't- now when I say wealthy I well they're not all wealthy but actually they don't have to be. They can still afford to buy stockings. Wealthy women don't steal hundreds of stockings. Nor department stores to obtain clothing. What is the motive? Shop lifters or a- a- few shoplifters are practically, a great majority are not. A young farmer might once examine, ?descriptive? as honest is and quite well to do chap. being that of of of of of of- upright life or about

360 days out of every year but during [chuckles] e- e- equinox they seem to go berserk. And still most peculiar objects, these two objects have absolutely no possible conceivable value to him. These objects were all of the same strange shape, they were all made of c- cer- certain uh- s-similar materials, I will go into this. Uh- once you got these together, the great problem is what on earth to do with 'em. You couldn't find them anywhere to hide them. And uh so we used to- we get up in the middle of the night and go long distances from home and try to find someplace to bury these object he had been in such great pains to steal, but- finally after he had done this had been detected several times somebody thought that ought to do something about it and the whole matter came to trail. It was considered that he was undoubtedly a nothing but a thief although it was perfectly evident that he had no use for what he had stolen, and no sure idea why he did it. Though he was a sen

sentenced to to prison, served brief time and uh left uh left uh left the prison, went back to the farm, was on the farm for several years more, and then uh uh a serious theft of another occurred in that county. He was arrested for that the previous uh record of having been a thief uh w- generally call that the that thief of uh, Old man Jenkins over there and uh he was brought in to the- to to await trail. He he um wrote me a letter before he died, and said, "uh Doctor, you know I couldn't possibly have stolen this sort of stuff. That was never the sort of thing I was compelled to steal." The sort of stuff that he referred to actually was chicken thief- chicken chicken theft charge was something this far removed sort of

things he stole. And he was so mortified so ashamed so angry having 'im falsely arrested that he hanged himself. Then, of course, the sheriffs says, "You see, he j- didn't wanna stand trial again and he knew he was guilty," and so forth. I know perfectly well that he was not guilty. And uh um, who was? Hard to say, perhaps not very important now. Uh uh I remember another- a girl a a a a an oil man's daughter. And he wanted to have her have much better education than he had. So he sent her to a very nice girls school. And uh, well she got alright in a way she was uh f-felt a little interior among the more sophisticated young women there and uh uh seemed not to be making too good grades and and uh then suddenly a catastrophe uh fell because she was uh sent into the dean's for having stolen uh a- a uh

girl's hm fur- fur cape or something of the kind. Uh this girl had about as much need to steal some other girl's fur cape as you would steal somebody's lead pencil. Nevertheless it was a pretty serious offense and there was no- when she was stealing she was dismissed from school and uh uh then the course of time I got see her. Now it's an interesting thing that this is not the only thing she she had stolen, but it was the only thing they knew she had stolen. She had um she er- turned out uh had um been in the- made something of a sensation in the dormitory by her skill in stealing lipstick from uh uh from uh cosmetic- cosmetic uh uh displays and she and she had stolen hundreds and hundreds of lipstick. [Audience laughs] Which she uh passed out to the girls therby

uh won some admiration both for her skill and for her generosity. And um uh she was so impressed by how much the girls were impressed by uh her wickedness, that she thought she would go a step further and give them something to- really important to talk about by lifting this jacket and uh and so now you say uh those were all conscious motives, what were the unconscious motives? Now some of the unconscious motives were motives in this case, will be apart to some of the psychoanalysts in the room but uh for the rest of you, I can say that her motives really, primarily were uh- were to be accepted by the girls but a much more important and un- -conscious motive was to bring some uh reproaches upon her parents because she felt that her parents were exploring her. That that they wanted to send her away make her- a- you see, the parents looked at it this way, we'll be good and generous of our daughter. We'll give her the big schooling that we didn't have, we have the money

we don't have the education. She felt immensely guilty about having a better education than her parents, at the same time she felt they were exploiting there own martyrdom about her. And uh she resented the whole business of feel- of of their pretending that uh that she would in some way or other uh elevate the family socially and elevate the family's dignity and she ah a as much as to say look I'm just very ordinary, common person like anybody else who might steal a lipstick and so forth. Even though I am dressed in wealth- uh exp- expensive clothes as I am. I I I don't belong in that class. Now uh, rape and uh sex- sexual offenses are forms of violence so repellent to our our sense of decency and order and beauty it's easy to think of the rapist as a raging over sexed ruthless brute and some are, but in most instances, or at least most of the ones I've seen, sex crimes of this sort are committed by under

sexed rather than over sexed individuals. Who are making a desperate effort to to uh to do 10 times as much as an average person might be expected to, of this sort. They are often under sized rather than over sized, I was telling Doctor Good ?Mocker? of uf of a patient I saw two- two weeks ago. Uh a man who has uh choked and raped probably 10 or 15 people uh uh and he is only about this big. He is about five feet tall, and um uh was it one time an athlete except that uh on the track team on the football team except that uh when he would get home from uh practice his uh a grandmother, with whom he lived. His mother having abandoned him and his grandmother with whom he lived, would uh take him to the cellar and beat him mercilessly because he hadn't come home and uh distributed her bootleg liquor around the neighborhood. So, so that his treatment of the uh

girls that he attacked was- oh I've got tell you, his mother would- his grandmother would tie him up as he was too active for her to hold. So she would tie him up with a belt around his neck and then beat him with another belt. So that what he did did in his series of crimes were always kind of retaliatory thing. He would tie these girls up a or or choke them with his hands, usually tying them up, uh and uh r- r- raped them. Now uh, a a actually th- th- this he he he he's a min- a miniature, he's not a dwarf, but he's a little fellow whose whose one normal athletic and physical expression was was uh thoroughly discouraged you see. Some men are, of course, unconsciously very afraid of women. That's 'nother thing the public seem to grossly misunderstands. Very often the men who attack women, attack them because they are so afraid of women. Either because they are dreadfully unconsciously afraid or un- -consciously very hateful toward to woman. Uh um

men are uh sometimes um- excuse me, a some men unconsciously uh go by compulsive urge to conquer and to humiliate- -iliate or to render powerless some uh smaller sample of womanhood than the type of woman who originally uh ex- uh ?offended her hostility on? him. Men who are violently afraid of their own homosexual desires sometimes get violently aggressive towards women and the men who are afraid of humiliation of impotence often try to overcome these fears by violent demonstrations. And sometimes, of course, they attack children because children are less frightening than grown up woman. But to the public this sounds like the worst imaginable sort of outrage and the assumption is here is a terrible and perverse guy who wants to- a a who who even would be cruel and ruthless toward little ones. Which is all true, but which doesn't take account unconscious factors which help to determine the act. Well, the reader will say,

"that maybe all be true in these violent case but how about bank robbing and check forging or conspiracy to cheat the government or hold ups. You can't these people aren't out for the money, what else would they be out for?" Now I won't deny that money is one of the things desired here and one of the things obtained. But the taking of the money from the victim of these devices certainly means something very different, I think, from merely ?to pattern? of acquiring more uh ?gold?. There are much easier ways to obtain money, then why these hard- hard ways? Then of course there is the constant use of magic. That the the trigger on a gun a- it- enables people to to do their violence, you know,by uh by proxy as it were. The machine machine does the violence. The explosion does the violence, I didn't do it you know, I didn't kill 'im. 'em. All I did was touch the trigger. Oh well you should that if you touch the trigger you know and aim the gun that the bullet will go out and hit- go into him and tear the muscle fibers apart

apart and he'll bleed to death. So you should have known this. Why should he have known this? Oh well everybody knows that. a yes, everybody knows that but people's on- the primitive unconscious doesn't reason that way. The primitive- the unconscious thinks, "here I stand. Way down there is somebody. All I have to do [snaps fingers] he's dead." Well I won't keep you longer I only wanted to point out there are a lot of these unconscious motives behind the the thing that happens that's called a crime. We think that many of these in- p- people who have been demonstrated to be unable to uh maintain their self control uh should be watched, should be careful. Or as it was recommended that uh Mr. Oswald be uh be be and more than that, however, we know many of these people who you won;t let us keep track of. I don't know if you know that, we have no official way to keep

track of some of the people that we regard as the most dangerous. This is one of the constant distressing things to prison people. And I think another recommendation that we're going to have to uh um to face is that of elevating the police science and police personnel generally because uh a a as long as we treat police as if they were some kind of a common labor in blue suits. You're not going to have a kind of protection you want. I think we should double the police salaries immediately, and we should ele- we should regard immediately that the whole business of uh of of policing and im- imprisoning people as important. Not just- [Two people clapping in audience] whether they are guilty or not. Give the people that watch over us- these people who have got to have more conscience then you do. You want a have every policeman has to face, talking with a group of them the other night who were my guests at the small meeting and they said, "uh perhaps the the ha- the wors- the most- the most saddest thing a policeman has to learn

is that the people who employ 'im expect- they expect him to be bribable by them but not by others. And this the the way people try to buy off police is unbelievable. Uh the the the and and who- who- whose concerned is this? Who who ought to care about this? If it isn't the law school business then is it the medical school? If it isn't the medical school's business, whose business is it? Is it your business, is it my business? Are we all going to just say we just do what we're told so it's part of the system, it's not my concern. Yeah, that sounds a little bit like a man man named ?Ike man?. Now in addition to this I think we ought to be an adequate defense for the- the little chaps the poor chaps who get caught in the fences. I'm concerned about the victims I think the victims' that there ought to be some way to make restitution of sorts to the victims, which hardly ever happens. But I think there ought to be an adequate defense to the the victims which there usually isn't, or for the offenders which there

usually isn't in smaller places. I I think uh I think there should um- that the so called insanity defense, personally, I think should be abolished completely. I don't think that's a defense against guiltiness, as a defense against, perhaps, certain kinds of intention. But but it confuses the whole issue and I think it would be much better to eliminate the insanity defense and c- and let us psychiatrists advise you after the judges and lawyers have made up their mind whether the man did the act, what ought to be done 'im to help him to change. Not to punish him. Punishing is a- I I will- vengence is mine. I will repay, said the Lord. Nobody believes it, they say well we better- we better take care of it ourselves, the Lord might forget about it. [Audience laughs] And the- the consequently we pay an enormous price to have the fund of punishing people, which is expensive, which doesn't do a- any good because what we want is not to get him punished. We We want 'im to change his ways, if we could say, as Doctor Good

Mocker does in his wonderful institution in Maryland. If we could say, look if you are ready to change, you can leave here. If you can't change, you don't leave. There's one place in the United States that I that I know of where there is such an institution and that's in bur- that's in Baltimore. I think one of the finest examples of criminal science in the world, but that's another- another- uh I will tell you about that some other time. Now and I think we ought to get some indeterminate sentences, I think we ought to get- a model- follow the model sentencing act provisions of the- the the region that's been suggested. I think we should greatly enlarge the parole system and I think we should, quit, playing this silly game of pretending to believe in capital punishment when nobody does, there are only forty of them a year in the entire United States and most of those are in five states. Most of 'em are negros and most of them are poor people and a good many of them were federal- uh uh ex- ex soldiers

You take that category out, there are only about a dozen people executed ye- out of a 180 million people every year and what kind of deterrence is that w- what- what a- what a ridiculous thing it is, anyway, to perpetuate some medieval sophistry about punishment when the the fellow isn't here to enjoy it. Puh- the purpose of punishment was to- for the pain it caused the man, n-n- but if he isn't here to experience the pain and see what happened to him. What lessons has he learned? Did he go- uh this is going to teach me a good lesson, I don't know what- [audience chuckles] w- was partly right, what lessons will it teach him? What lessons does it teach anybody else? What has it done for you? What have you been spared? One of the ridiculous medieval ?asininitive? as this capital punishment buisness because it ties up all it- all of this sophistry, all of this- all of this- talk, of this- argument about

whether or not this fellow is healthy enough for us to kill is is beneath the dignity of a civilized nation. Ye- I hope- [Audience applause] I feel strongly on it, I am glad you do this I say are some other things I'm going to get around to recommending, this particular doctor supposed to be on some of the unconscious millions more than the public defenders and I come here which I hope we can ar-ra-arrive at a date for this- the second lecture that I haven't given yet- [audience laughter] it will- it will probably be on some other devices in use for changing the way whose methods of self control have proven in- effective and who have therefore become classified technically, as criminals. In short, treatment methods, the jail and capital punishment that's one of our treatment methods but we don't give it to many and uh various rehabilitation techniques that have been started

in a few isolated places, thank you very much. [Audience applause] [Applause fades out] [Silence] [Silence]