Gateway to Ideas; 16; Books Into Mass Media

[No Audio] [V.O.]: Gateway To Ideas [music] Gateway To Ideas, a new series of conversations in which ideas are discussed in relation to reading. Today's program "Books into Mass Media" is moderated by the well known author Leo Roston. [Leo]: Our guest for this program is Mr. Hollis Alpert, the distinguished film critic of the Saturday review, and the entertainment editor of Woman's Day. Mr. Alpert most

recent book is "The Barry Mores" the story of that perfectly extraordinary family that left such a mark on the American theater and American films. We're going to talk about books and mass media but chiefly I suspect we'll turn our attention to what happens when a book is made into a film or into a television show and why these 2 forms are so very very different and what their is about each. Which requires a certain things be done that may not be apparent to a person who just reads the book. So suppose we start talking about books and movies Mr. Alpert. What is your general impression about what happens to novels when they're made into films or into a television spectacular or a television series? [Alpert]: Well in the case of-of films particularly I think a distinct change occurs, uh, sometimes for the worst or perhaps more often for the worse. That is I think the original quality of the book very seldom

survives on the screen. I can think of just 2 examples that immediately come to mind. Uh, one is Madame Bovary, which I believe has done been done 2 or 3 times and another is The Great Gatsby. I think there been at least 2 versions of that. Now in both both these books look on the surface to be w-fine material for screen dramatization, uh, yet in both cases the quality of the original somehow is not seen to survive on the screen. [Leo]: Why do you think that is? [Alpert]: Well because the elusive quality of style and a say in the case of both since they were both each in their way, uh, great stylist, is probably the most difficult thing to capture. That's one thing so that the ambiance let's say of The Great Gatsby, I think you probably remember when you read it kind of carried away by by the flow-the tone of language. How do you how do you get his tone of language when you let's say you're using Alan Ladd to convey it. [Leo]: I have read The Great Gatsby at least 6 times and each time weep at the end. [Alpert]: Yes.

[Leo]: I think it is probably as good a book as as been written by any American and to my delight my children discover it with just as much excitement. Perhaps I can cast a little light on what you're saying Mr. Alpert, which I think perfectly valid. I wrote some movies and I had the problem of writing a film based on a book. So I saw perhaps more clearly than some people might, what happens. When you write a book you write it for an audience of one. You write it for a reader. The reader reads alone. He reads at his own pace. He reads as we say between the lines, over the lines, beyond and around them. He can put the book down to let his internal universe rearrange itself. He can reread but when you are writing a novel, as I have, you're carrying on a dialogue between 2 parts. Yourself as the writer and yourself as the reader and you are writing really for one. Now the moment you do a movie or a television program

or write an article for a magazine very often, you're aware that you have to engage the interest of a great many people and different kinds of people. Now secondly, I had to adapt a book which I better not name cause the story is not complimentary. The book ran 420 pages. I read it, I thought it wasn't a very good book. I read it again and then tried to structure what happens because the critical thing in a movie is that something has to happen it has to move there has to be action, and when I tried to set down what had actually happened in this book of 420 odd pages. It turned out that all of the action would take up not more than 30 minutes of film time. I can illustrate it another way. In a book you can describe how a character feels and you can take 10 pages to indicate his emotions and his conflict and what he's worried about and how he proliferates his thoughts and his wonders and his anxieties. But in a film you come

in on a close up shot of an ashtray it's full of cigarettes stubs. It's dark. A hand reaches into the shot and nervously stubs out his cigarette and you know this man is agitated. Now that whole thing will maybe take you 20 seconds and you've eaten up maybe 20 pages of film and so on. So all of these things happen as for the matter of the style of course what you call the ambience, the mood, but I think something else happens which is perhaps decisive. If a writer is any good he is writing about the psychological involvements of people. If he's any good he communicates to his reader a strong enough sense about the problem of a character so that the reader gets involved in the character and as I said earlier, weeps with their tragedy or laughs with their triumphs. Now this means that the writer has to have a good deal of insight, quite apart from style or sense a story or what not. The number of people who have this kind of insight is I think limited.

Now when you put this on the screen, look at the number of people whom you are asking to have insight. The director, the actor, the producer, the cutter, the cameraman, and that incredible instrument the camera itself. Which does very odd things beyond anyone's intentions. So some of the films that you mentioned like The Great Gatsby. Which might be a very hard book to make into a movie even if done by a genius. Are often made by run of the mill craftsman who could do a good melodrama. Who could do a good story about gangsters or about gambling or about the chase but who really fumble when they deal with anything as subtle as Gatsby and the kind of person he was. Or a subtle as Emma Bovary and her particular life. [Alpert]: Yeah I have seen, on occasion movies which have turned out quite well. Now I think one one that I-I remember still rather vividly was sometime ago was a "A Place in the Sun." which

was adapted from Dreiser's "An American Tragedy." Now there I am not an admirer of Dreiser's style as such. I'm an admirer of his force and his power [Leo]: I know no one who admires his style. [Alpert]: Yes, yes on the other hand I think that what was notable about the movie which was directed by George Stevens was that he'd, you had a sense of some kind of style and mood very very strong one in fact stronger than any in the book itself. [Leo]: It happens that I know George Stevens quite well and spent several months during the war with him he was a lieutenant colonel and I was on a special mission. We spent many many hours talking about movies and the movies he had done. In the place, the movie you referred to "A Place In The Sun" taken from "An American Tragedy" a thing that is perfectly astounding to me is the insight that Stevens had into these people. And I say people not characters but people. Uh, Stevens works in a way which is almost impossible to describe

he may take 5 years he broods he suffers and he is himself not articulate. He talks through camera and through light and through motion and through shadings. And in trying to describe a scene he will sound mystical but when you see it on the screen it's electrifying because of the degree to which, in my opinion, he pins down the levers of human action. They're half a dozen, I think Willy Wyler is a director does that sort of thing. [Alpert]: Yes the ?Ares? was was of course taken from James, uh, Washington Square [Leo]: And the play. [Alpert]: And the play, the play, the book then play then came the movie. Based I suppose more on the play. There we have it at a remove [Leo]: I thought the movie was better than the play and better than the book you know. [Alpert]: Yeah so did I, yes I, well see there there I think you have a case where you might say the essentials of the book are are caught in a more dramatic way since James himself was not a particular did not unfold his tales in a particularly dramatic way. A more recent

example on one that's probably far more controversial than anything we've been talking about a sense that there were those were for and against, was "Lolita." Done by that quite brilliant young American director Stanley Kubrick. Now Lolita had its screenplay adapted from the book by its author Nabokov, uh, it was quite different from the book which for me was a kind of weird strange successful sort of thing and yet I also thought the movie and its way was quite successful. [Leo]: I thought it was a brilliant piece of movie making and very different from the book. [Alpert]: Yes, and there were those who said well it's not the book therefore it's not good well I think that both are good here. [Leo]: You know it's interesting Mr. Alpert that many many people will go to see a movie that is based on a book they wouldn't dream of reading. During the 30's and the 40's there were many writers who are writing slick stories which were quite successful as films they were witty they were charming they were diverting and

the books from which they were taken were not very good at all and so that in translating them to the screen they were greatly improved. But think of how many books one can mention that turned out to be quite distinguished motion pictures for instance you mentioned An American Tragedy and Lolita. Think of Mutiny on the Bounty I'm thinking of the first one or the ox bow incident or How Green Was My Valley a marvelous touching movie. Or Goodbye Mr. Chips. I think the movie there was more moving the book. [Alpert]: None But The lonely Heart, I remember [Leo]: None But the Lonely Heart which didn't off as a film I don't think [Alpert]: Uh-almost it had it was done by Clifford Odets and directed by him. [Leo]: And remember Rebecca? [Alpert]: Yes now that came over very very well. [Leo]: Almost a perfect melodrama I think. Great expectations very well and the only one of the great masterpieces of the screen, The Informer. [Alpert]: Yes. [Leo]: Which was John Ford's fantastic picture. [Alpert]: Now there was a case where I saw the movie

first and went to the book second. [Leo]: Yes [Alpert]: And I found myself disappointed by the book because I think the screen version was so powerful. [Leo]: You wouldn't be disappointed though if you first saw Weathering Heights and then read the book. [Alpert]: No not at all [Leo]: and Weathering Heights was a marvelous piece of moviemaking that caught the spirit of brooding massive lines on [Alpert]: I saw that just recently in a revival it didn't hold up too well. [Leo]: Really? [Alpert]: It was a kind of moviemaking that we'd rather lost it it had this kind of sentimental quality it didn't seem so then it was 1939 when it was made [Leo]: The style has changed yet when one watches old films on television these days can't help but be impressed by the fact that there's the style of statement is so different that seems which once made us weep today make a sort of amused by the innocence of the kind of love stories that were popular in the 30s and 40s today with sound I suppose

a little bit like soap operas and part of that is that I suppose audiences have seen so very many movies and television shows that they now become familiar with the, what you can only call the technical manipulations. I have an amusing example, I was watching a television show with my daughter when she was about 12 and early in the, uh, episode this was part of a series the hero went into a room and there was his younger brother and his younger brother was a gentle sweet pacific lad and my daughters that he's going to die and I said how do you know? and she said oh he has to die. Well it turns out he was killed in the television show. After it was over I said, "How did you know he was gonna die?" Well whenever you've got a younger brother who was kind, nice, and hates violence you know is going to die because then the hero will get real angry and go out and avenge him. [Alpert]: I see. [Leo]: This kind of observation is quite phenomenal but if a kid sees as

many of these stereotypes dramas he or she begins to wise up to whats going to happen. [Alpert]: What Meryl Miller would call only you ?Dick Dearing? save us [Leo]: Only you Dick Dearing [Alpert]: Yes well of course well theres a case on where doing a television series or trying to do one resulted in a book. using- [Leo]: Let's turn for a moment away from films and talk about another development that interests me. There was a time when magazines ran a good deal of fiction and in the 20s and 30s every popular magazine with exception of one or two news magazines would have fiction as a staple part of its content. This is not true today and certainly if true to a much much much lesser degree but the curious thing has happened there is a great deal more in magazines of nonfiction and there is a great deal more of articles which are taken from books that are going to appear. If you look at

say a Look magazine or Life magazine or many other the weekly journals you'll discover very often interesting quite significant articles on politics on international affairs around science which are taken from a book that is going to be published in one or two weeks and among the things that this suggests is that the audience has become much more interested in the nonfictional aspects of life in politics and in science and in many international affairs and gadgetry and in medicine and psychiatry and human relations, interpersonal relations and so on. At the expense of fiction reading magazines about [Alpert]: But I think it also applies to the novel field to show you probably know as many novelists or more than I do but they all cry about the low audience figures for for their books were as the nonfiction writer as an immediate advantage since he's generally writing about represents an area of knowledge and he can practically count on a good many

thousands of people wanting to read that book. [Leo]: One thing that distresses me paradoxically is the number of books that are published I can have nothing but but a strict feeling almost a puritanical feeling about the role of the publisher publishers seem to have abdicated their judgment in many cases. They're just so many books being put out that I can't help but believe that the level or the critical standard has diminished and to make a rosy side of the picture which is what this means is that more people are reading books than ever before and here of course the immense revolution of paperbacks demand is so very great that you can publish ten times as many books as were published say 20 years ago [Alpert]: Yes well I think I think as little as 5 years about 1958 was when I last checked there were 11,000 titles published hardcover titles of his books published in the previous year. [Leo]: Well there were 17,000 this

year as of September. That's a great many book yes. And I think it's safe to say too that the number of good books being published today is probably greater than anyone dreamed. [Alpert]: I think so. [Leo]: In non-fiction and I'm not saying you don't have good fiction I write some of it myself but I hope it's good. But the number of books in areas that once were not considered too popular take the field of art field of archeology or the field of history or biography or essays it is perfectly astounding how the appetite of the public has grown for this kind of reading material. Yes. What did you think of Moby Dick? As a film. [Alpert]: Oh I was on the last version the John Houston version. Yes. I was I was disappointed in it I think. I was disappointed partly in that adaptation and partly in the role played by Gregory ?Peck? [Leo]: Oh you just finished a book on the

Barrymores Mr. Alpert, and as I remember old John played the part many many years ago. [Alpert]: He did it twice. He did it first he played in the Seabeast and he that was a silent version with Dolores Costello and remember there's of course no love interest in the original novel but they felt the whale was not sufficient as a love interest so they added [unintelligible] Well they had a marvelous mechanical monster which which was supposed to cavort in one of the bays around Los Angeles and it immediately sank to the bottom so they recreated it in a stage and they went and did the a picture called Moby Bick, Dick as a sound version the early sound days. [Leo]: This was still Barrymore. [Alpert]: This was still Barrymore and he hammed it all over the place in that one. [Leo]: I wonder what one would do with a story like that which has this overall brooding philosophical concerned the action of course is spectacular. The minute you put a ship on screen and go off chasing whales should be able to do good things. I'm interested in the growth however of the which

you might call the psychological film and I suppose this is largely under the impetus of the Italians the French and the Japanese using their materials, their stories or books and translating them into the screen in their idiom. [Alpert]: I think in Italy in particularly Well I think the 3 countries you mentioned are, uh, I think they're excellent choices there but it seems to me the Italians have taken their literary tradition or and have managed to embody it quite remarkably in film. [Leo]: How do you mean? [Alpert]: Well I they they first of all often they're the form of their films that seems to me would make wonderful short stories wonderful novel-novellas or novels. In other words take La Ventura for an example done by this Director Antonioni. When I saw that film I thought

oh my gosh I wish I had thought of that idea what a wonderful novel it would have made. Well it is that actually there are uh some other what John Crosby would call the high think type film critics who call this the film novel. They actually describe the form as the film novel. In other words essentially the situation in La Ventura is a novelistic situation. In other words it belongs to the field of fiction not movies. [Leo]: You didn't find it pointless or wondering? [Alpert]: No not at all. Not at all. [Leo]: Interesting how differently people react. The thing that interests me about the films that are taken from Japanese books and Italian books so on is that the foreign producers are much more likely to take what we would call a short story and either make a film out of it or take 2 or 3 short stories and put them into films. This pleases me because I happen to love the short story form and, uh, I have written a great many short stories and really only one

novel. As a youngster I was enormously impressed by this form and by what it demands of you but it's not a form that is very popular in the United States, i'm sorry to say. [Alpert]: It used to be, it used to be. I began as a short story writer too and devoted practically all my time to it it's a much more difficult form to practice now you earlier mentioned how the nonfiction article and so forth has driven out fiction from magazines you don't you simply don't have a place for it. You had a continuing series of course in one case, uh, Which made it slightly easier and it could eventually become a book. [Leo]: Yes, yes. [Alpert]: And I think that's probably the only real solution for the author who is going to be a pr-professional about it that has devoted a great deal of his time to the form. But what I do like, I mean you're pointing out the Italians using the short story form that was what trying to get to earlier that they have a sense of this form it's almost as though the original impulse is literary and they've managed somehow to find a film equivalent for it. [Leo]: They are not afraid of what appears to

be improvisation it may not be improvisation. I'm thinking of this is also true in their books incidentally. We in America have become I think overly demanding of a structured story according to the pattern we're familiar with. This is a feedback from movies that is the movie's establish a certain fictional form you had to have certain things called a payoff you had to plant an idea which would then pay off and so on. You had a series of surprises you have the drama of surprise cutting that is, uh, an example you may all recognize as the shot of the maids screaming and the camera moving into her mouth that it dissolves into it a railway train whistle. This was 39 Steps of Hitchcock. In any case the movies and the novel in the United States interplayed to create a form which has become highly highly stereotyped. And one of the things that is interesting about

European literature, European writing. European novels, and short stories and therefore films though again there you have a re- a reciprocating relationship. Is the fact that they're perfectly willing to tell a story which doesn't conform to the convention of stories as we think stories must be written. They don't have to be at all. [Alpert]: Yes well one movie that in the last few years which caught my attention degree of my admiration was Jules and Jim done by this quite brilliant young french director, uhm, Truffaut. That was taken from a novel and, uh, but somehow he meant the novel did have I gather, of course I haven't read it, I don't think that it appeared in this country in translation, there I gathered there was this kind of improvisational quality in the novel but he somehow again managed to find a film equivalent and caught a a kind of spontaneous quality there. [Leo]: Since we're talking about books and

the mass media. It's interesting to notice that television can exploit a certain kind of material that neither the station or movies where every successful with precisely because they could break it into weekly episodes which means short story episodes. For instance Earl Stanley Gardner who writes the Perry Mason stories and is of course one of the most successful writers in the history of the human race. [Alpert]: Yes [Leo]: It's only perfectly ?delightful man? Never had a good movie or a good play made of his books. But as you know they become very successful television because they lend themselves to the individual episodic business almost like a short story and many of his books really are short and crisp and are arranged almost the way the short story used to be. [Alpert]: I think the success of a program like Twilight Zone for so many years is is the use of the short story form a particular kind of short story the fantasy short story and science fiction form. There, I imagine, a great many of the episodes were actually developed from short stories.

[Leo]: Something is happening I never dreamed would happen in the years that I was in Hollywood that is a movie or a television show would appear before there is a printed something and they'll print the story afterwards. [Alpert]: This pocketbook version you mean? [Leo]: Yes [Alpert]: Well they actually commission writers to novelize so call. [Leo]: To novelize the original. [Alpert]: The original, yes. This happens very often with with movies now I mean I I I know one young chap who works works as a publicist for a film company and in his spare time, to help feed a growing number of children, does these novelizations. [Leo]: I will bet that by whatever devices of ingenuity or skill he uses, he'll never turn out anything as good as some of the books we have mentioned earlier which have been made into movies and a few that we haven't mentioned which were made into superb films. Were themselves books of no small standing i'm thinking of From Here

to Eternity or Northwest Passage. Or the Treasure of the Sierra Madre or Ben Hur or the Brothers ?unintellible? or the Axe Bow Incident. Or All Quiet on the Western Front. ?haute? you know the record of turning good books into good films is pretty good. [Alpert]: It's not too bad. [Leo]: We're always hurt bitterly when one of our favorites turns out to be appalling. But that's something perhaps that is not controllable. [Alpert]: There's one other thing that i've discovered has happened and that is that very often when a good book is made into a film the book is more widely read afterwards. [Leo]: Oh we know that. They used to worry about this. They used to worry that movies would kill reading. Then they said radio would kill reading, then television would kill reading. And people go on saying these things because it has one of the characteristics of the human race, that it finds it very hard to give up an opinion and very difficult to accept evidence to the contrary. There are any number of studies been made on this when Great Expectations was made into a film

the public libraries of the United States all remarked on the fact that they were flooded with requests for the book. Same thing is true with Oliver Twist. Same thing was true of the other great Dickens novel that was made into a film. The one with W.C. Fields. David Copperfield. Fantastic, and I think again that we have to remember that there was always in the society an ongoing and reciprocating relationship. Well Mr. Hollis Alpert, thank you very much for joining me in this discussion of books and mass media 2 subjects that i'm delighted to talk about my name is Leo Roston, thanks for listening in. [V.O.]: You've been listening to Gateway To Ideas. A new series of conversations in which ideas are discussed in relation to reading. Today's program Books into Mass Media has presented Hollis Alpert, film critic of the Saturday Review, Entertainment

Editor of Woman's Day, and author of the recent book The Barrymores. The moderator was the well known author Leo Ralston was special advisor to the editors of Look Magazine. Mr. Ralston's most recent book is The Many Worlds of Leo Ralston. To extend the dimensions of today's program for you a list of the books mentioned in the discussion as well as others relevant to the subject has been prepared. You can obtain a copy from your local library or by writing to Gateway To Ideas, P.O.Box 641 Time Square Station, New York. And please enclose a stamped self addressed envelope. Write to box 641 Times Square Station, New York. Gateway To Ideas is produced for National Educational Radio under a grant from the National Home Library Foundation. The programs are prepared by the National Book Committee and the American Library Association in cooperation with the National Association of Educational Broadcasters.

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