On the Media; 1994-09-25; Haiti, the Press and U.S. Policy; Part 2; Science Reporting

<v Speaker>At first glance, press coverage of the invasion or occupation or perhaps <v Speaker>policing of Haiti was not only a picture perfect military effort, but a huge <v Speaker>media success. After all, there were no press tools and no censorship. <v Speaker>Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw were there in bush jackets to greet our troops together with <v Speaker>scores of other journalists. <v Speaker>But with a closer look at the press role than Haiti appears murkier. <v Speaker>Did the government, by deftly controlling information, use the press for its own <v Speaker>purposes, just as it did in the Iraqi war? <v Speaker>Is the apparent open flow of information about military operations misleading? <v Speaker>And what, if anything, can the press do about it? <v Speaker>Haiti, the press and U.S. policy. <v Speaker>We'll look into that on this hour of on the media right after this news. <v Speaker>So stay tuned. <v Laura Knoy>From National Public Radio News in Washington, I'm Laura Knoy. <v Laura Knoy>U.S. Marines killed 10 armed Haitians in a firefight outside a police station in northern <v Laura Knoy>Haiti late last night. One American translator was slightly wounded. <v Laura Knoy>The military says the Haitians started shooting at the Marines and the troops fired back.

<v Laura Knoy>Five people are now being held for questioning. <v Laura Knoy>NPR's Sunni Khalid is in Cape Haitian, where the incident took place. <v Laura Knoy>He says the Marines have surrounded the police headquarters now and are trying to secure <v Laura Knoy>the building. <v Sunni Khalid>They have taken up space in the other room, a couple of platoons which have been <v Sunni Khalid>right outside the Haitian police headquarters. <v Sunni Khalid>And they have not been able to determine if there was anyone still holed up inside <v Sunni Khalid>the headquarters. They basically cordon the area off, and they were gonna try to rush the <v Sunni Khalid>building. They were just shining light into the building, trying to determine if anyone <v Sunni Khalid>else was still there. It was also a lieutenant who was a liason between <v Sunni Khalid>the marines and the police and they were trying to get him to sort of try to persuade <v Sunni Khalid>people to come out. That the United States. <v Sunni Khalid>Was not at war with the Haitian government, or the defacto government. <v Sunni Khalid>And if you're trying to get these people out of there. <v Laura Knoy>NPR's Sunni Khalid in Cape Haitien. <v Laura Knoy>Meanwhile, in Washington, Senator Sam Nunn has reacted to last night's shootout. <v Laura Knoy>Nunn was part of a three man delegation that brokered the agreement in Haiti that led to <v Laura Knoy>the US intervention, he said. Unfortunately, the attack against American forces

<v Laura Knoy>is no surprise. <v Sam Nunn>Was the first bad incident we've had involving directly American troops. <v Sam Nunn>But it won't be the last, I'm sure. <v Sam Nunn>When you have thousands of American troops there and you have a lot of people who are <v Sam Nunn>still armed, you're going to have some incidents like this is remarkable. <v Sam Nunn>We haven't had more. <v Laura Knoy>This week, Congress is expected to consider putting a deadline on U.S. <v Laura Knoy>involvement in Haiti. Nunn said lawmakers probably will approve some type of limit. <v Sam Nunn>The majority, the Senate will insist on setting a date certain. <v Sam Nunn>And again, I hope we'll have some flexibility in it so our military people will be able <v Sam Nunn>to feel that the country's behind them, that's very important as they carry out that <v Sam Nunn>mission they are. <v Laura Knoy>Georgia Senator Sam Nunn, he spoke on NBC's Meet the Press. <v Laura Knoy>150 Jordanian police left their country today for Haiti. <v Laura Knoy>King Hussein gave the man a farewell ceremony at the airport. <v Laura Knoy>He said they'll help maintain peace and security in Haiti and train the local police. <v Laura Knoy>Hussein added that Jordan ranks fifth in the world in contributing personnel to <v Laura Knoy>international operations.

<v Laura Knoy>The U.S. government reportedly plans to monitor the nation's airports for anyone carrying <v Laura Knoy>a bubonic plague in from India. <v Laura Knoy>The sickness has killed more than 50 people in the Indian city of sarod. <v Laura Knoy>Today's New York Times says U.S. health. U.S. <v Laura Knoy>health officials want to make sure the plague doesn't spread here. <v Laura Knoy>The paper says people coming from the Sirat area will still be allowed in, but they'll be <v Laura Knoy>told to call a doctor if they start feeling sick. <v Laura Knoy>The Sierra Club may soon announce a series of spending cuts and layoffs because it's <v Laura Knoy>running out of money. The club is one of the nation's biggest environmental <v Laura Knoy>organizations. The board of directors is expected to decide this weekend where to cut <v Laura Knoy>first. This is NPR. <v Richard Hake>This is WNYC. It's 11:04, 69 degrees. <v Richard Hake>It's cloudy in New York City. Good morning. <v Richard Hake>I'm Richard Hake. President Clinton arrived here in New York City early this morning. <v Richard Hake>He's scheduled to address the General Assembly of the United Nations tomorrow. <v Richard Hake>WNYC will carry his speech live. <v Richard Hake>That's a 11:00 tomorrow morning. Meanwhile, he will meet with local and world leaders <v Richard Hake>today. Mayor Giuliani will meet with him at the Waldorf this afternoon. <v Richard Hake>And when the president visits, we usually experience some gridlock.

<v Richard Hake>Watch for frozen zones around the Waldorf and the United Nations. <v Richard Hake>Other world leaders will be here as well. <v Richard Hake>Russian President Boris Yeltsin is scheduled to arrive later this afternoon. <v Richard Hake>Governor Cuomo and his Republican challenger, George Pataki, spoke at a Long Island rally <v Richard Hake>yesterday. They didn't actually meet. <v Richard Hake>Pataki gave his address after the governor left. <v Richard Hake>Cuomo was on the offensive yesterday, attacking Pataki of raising taxes and keeping <v Richard Hake>nothing in the legislature. Also speaking, but later on was former presidential candidate <v Richard Hake>Ross Perot. He didn't endorse either of the two. <v Richard Hake>Police are puzzled as to why no one has placed a missing persons report on that woman <v Richard Hake>who was found dead in the West Village. <v Richard Hake>Police say she was a jogger in great physical shape who wore expensive running shoes and <v Richard Hake>clothing. This according to The New York Times, her body was found on Tuesday. <v Richard Hake>She had been raped and strangled. Police are asking anyone with information to call 800 <v Richard Hake>577 TIPS. <v Richard Hake>Former vise presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro. <v Richard Hake>Former Congresswoman Bella Abzug and talk show host Oprah Winfrey are among the new <v Richard Hake>inductees to the National Women's Hall of Fame.

<v Richard Hake>That's in Seneca Falls, New York. Abzug told the event that someday women <v Richard Hake>will be recognized for their efforts and won't need such awards. <v Richard Hake>The NBA says that it's premature to consider a management lockout. <v Richard Hake>Players have been without a contract since the end of last summer's playoffs. <v Richard Hake>In sports, the Chicago Bears take on the Jets tonight, pre-season hockey. <v Richard Hake>The islanders play Florida and the Devils on the ice with Hartford. <v Richard Hake>We'll have cloudy skies today. Chance of showers late tonight. <v Richard Hake>Sixty nine degrees right now. This is WNYC at 11 06. <v Speaker>It was like no military invasion, probably ever a week or so before the invasion <v Speaker>of Haiti was to take place. Anyone watching CNN or the other television networks, <v Speaker>including most especially the generals in Haiti, could get a detailed briefing on what <v Speaker>was coming down, including a detailed account of strategy. <v Speaker>What targets were to be hit, in what sequence, and even the names of units to be <v Speaker>parachuting in or storming the beaches.

<v Speaker>It was, of course, a calculated tactic to intimidate and scare the generals. <v Speaker>And it apparently worked. <v Speaker>But upon reflection, the implications of such a maneuver can make one slightly ill. <v Speaker>What if, for instance, the Haitian generals had not blinked in the Haitian army? <v Speaker>Mottley, though it might be. <v Speaker>Was waiting and ready for our troops when they landed. <v Speaker>Surely some people, Americans and Haitians, would have died because of the lack <v Speaker>of surprise? Our purpose, though, is not to debate military tactics, but to think hard <v Speaker>about the role of the press in this situation. <v Speaker>In a very real sense. The government used the press in the Gulf War, the government <v Speaker>controlled information by limiting press access, and the result was that the American <v Speaker>public saw few of those disturbing pictures of dead American soldiers that might <v Speaker>have eroded support for the war. <v Speaker>This time, the government's objective was different. <v Speaker>So instead of limiting information, they flooded the press with information, and the <v Speaker>result was the same flow of information largely controlled by the government. <v Speaker>Then, to add insult to injury, after releasing the information it wanted released.

<v Speaker>The government tried to broker a deal with news organizations on the eve of the invasion, <v Speaker>which would have in effect shifted back to Gulf War rules. <v Speaker>The press didn't go for that deal, but what would have happened had there been an <v Speaker>invasion or what will happen if things get bad over there is another matter. <v Speaker>What does Haiti have to teach us about how the press and the government work when war is <v Speaker>afoot? Are we're getting a true picture of what is happening in Haiti. <v Speaker>We have an array of informed sources to discuss Haiti and the press. <v Speaker>First is John R. MacArthur. He's the publisher of Harper's Magazine and author of <v Speaker>Second Front Censorship and Propaganda in the Gulf War. <v Speaker>Rick, welcome. <v John R. MacArthur>Hi. <v Speaker>Also joining us is Bernard Gwerksman, foreign editor of The New York Times, which has <v Speaker>been the source of many of the most revealing articles about what's been going on in <v Speaker>Haiti and the White House during this past week. <v Speaker>Bernie is always we're very glad to have you. <v Bernand Gwerksman>Thank you. Good to be here. <v Speaker>And Jean Jean-Pierre also joins us. <v Speaker>He's a freelance reporter who spent most of his life in Port-Au-Prince. <v Speaker>He reports for the Caribbean News Agency and Radio for Peace International.

<v Speaker>He also co-wrote with James Ridgeway this week's week's Village Voice cover <v Speaker>story about Haiti entitled Will ask Will Aristide Play the U.S. <v Speaker>Game? Welcome, Jean. <v Jean Jean-Pierre>It's my pleasure, sir. <v Speaker>And we're also happy to have Amy Wilentz, author of The Rainy Season Haiti Since <v Speaker>Duvalier. she is a freelance journalist whose profile of Jean Bertrand Aristide <v Speaker>appeared in the most recent Time magazine. <v Speaker>Amy, we're very glad to have you, too. <v Amy Wilentz>Hi. Thanks. <v Speaker>Bernie Gwerksman, you are a veteran of many campaigns. <v Speaker>Have you ever before seen the details of an invasion offered in advance to the press? <v Speaker>And what should the press do in a situation when clearly it was news, but also <v Speaker>clearly it was a calculated effort by the government to use the press? <v Speaker>Well, there were two things. One, the fact you're right in the sense that it was very <v Speaker>easy to get information this time on the tactics they planned. <v Speaker>We didn't know for sure when the invasion would begin, which was, of <v Speaker>course, a a major factor, although we knew deep within a few days if

<v Speaker>in fact the Carter deal hadn't worked out. <v Speaker>We'd also made this somewhat different from the Persian Gulf, which is the most recent <v Speaker>occasion you mentioned was this time we had reporters on the ground <v Speaker>in Haiti for some time before the invasion <v Speaker>would have taken place. Whereas in Iraq, I think news organizations <v Speaker>were either largely nervous about having people in Iraq or the Iraqis <v Speaker>kicked us out. So when the war started in Iraq, only CNN <v Speaker>to my memory, was actually in Iraq and rather limited to Baghdad, <v Speaker>whereas our correspondents have been there. <v Speaker>And many of them have been there for many different trips at times and <v Speaker>can move around the country. <v Speaker>Well, let me ask you, as foreign editor of The Times, does it make you uncomfortable when <v Speaker>you find yourself sort of this is an instrument of foreign policy in a situation like <v Speaker>this? <v Speaker>No. I mean, the alternative, I suppose, is not to say anything.

<v Speaker>No, I think in this case, the US government wanted it known it was ready <v Speaker>to invade if if they couldn't get what they wanted. <v Speaker>And it seemed rather interesting charting the whole <v Speaker>PR campaign as was going up. <v Speaker>We, of course, kept saying this was part of a PR campaign <v Speaker>to intimidate the Haitian government where we were caught by <v Speaker>surprise. As was most people, was the last minute decision <v Speaker>by President Couldn't to enlist or to accept the services <v Speaker>of former President Carter on a mission which achieved <v Speaker>probably only about half of what the US really wanted at the time. <v Speaker>I want to ask you, Rick MacArthur, before we get into the details of <v Speaker>what happened and so forth. Give us some perspective on the openness <v Speaker>of the government in the Gulf War, Panama, Grenada, compared <v Speaker>with with what's going on in Haiti now.

<v Speaker>How do you sort of do that? <v Speaker>Oh, well, public public relations objectives not withstanding, <v Speaker>this is a vastly better situation and it's being much better covered by the <v Speaker>daily papers and the networks provides reasons, as Mr. Gordon <v Speaker>pointed out, that had reporters there for months and months or if not years. <v Speaker>And they know the territory and they know how to talk to in the Clinton administration <v Speaker>couldn't have imposed the kind of censorship that was imposed <v Speaker>in the Gulf War. They just would have been impractical. <v Speaker>One thing it's not mentioned, though, is that technically the agreement <v Speaker>between the major news organizations, including The New York Times and the Pentagon, <v Speaker>which established pool coverage, still exists. <v Speaker>That still is the rule of the day, order of the day if there is combat. <v Speaker>So had there been an invasion, the Pentagon and the government could have had would've <v Speaker>had the option of activating these national media pools or this national media pool, <v Speaker>which is carefully circum circumscribed.

<v Speaker>However, since you had reporters all over Port-Au-Prince, there's just no point. <v Speaker>In fact, can I interrupt, really? <v Speaker>My understanding the negotiations on this were handled by the Washington <v Speaker>bureau. But it was passed on to me is that the Pentagon did have a pool <v Speaker>ready. And but it but they did say that anybody <v Speaker>already there would have freedom of movement and that the Pentagon would not try to <v Speaker>censor, have censorship or limit access, as they did in the <v Speaker>in Saudi Arabia at the time of the Persian Gulf War. <v Speaker>I'm sure they did say that they're being but they're being practical in <v Speaker>every case. If they had the choice, they'd rather not have reporters crawling around <v Speaker>seeing things that the military doesn't want them to see. <v Speaker>So, Amy Wilentz why did Haiti not <v Speaker>throw journalists out? I mean, I think that for four months <v Speaker>now, we've been seeing these photographs. <v Speaker>Night after night of bodies sort of piled up in the streets and left to decompose because

<v Speaker>people were afraid to even touch them. <v Speaker>Those were certainly important in creating the atmosphere that is brought <v Speaker>brought us to where we are today. Why did the Haitian government not try to put <v Speaker>some controls on them? <v Speaker>Well, I think the Haitian general generals have gotten the feeling that they could <v Speaker>do basically what they wanted from the three years of vacillation of American foreign <v Speaker>policy. And they were just seeing how far they could up the ante before anything would <v Speaker>happen. They felt that they could do all this with impunity. <v Speaker>So they really weren't threatened by the by the journalists there. <v Speaker>And in fact, the the way the invasion didn't go down and the way it became <v Speaker>a friendly, a permissive entry may show to some extent that they <v Speaker>were right, that they could do what they want and they still wouldn't be invaded. <v Speaker>In fact, I think that what happened was instead of fearing the invasion <v Speaker>when they met with President Carter, they understood that President Clinton was so <v Speaker>worried about doing an invasion for political reasons that, in fact, the generals had the <v Speaker>upper hand. And that's why they got so much of what they wanted out of the Carter

<v Speaker>mission. <v Speaker>Well, I mean, their upper hand was, I would think, tempered by the idea that these planes <v Speaker>were in the air and on their way. <v Speaker>You would think so, but I'm not sure it was. If you look at the details of the agreement. <v Speaker>But another thing I wanted to say is you ask whether the press <v Speaker>was uncomfortable to be put in the position of an instrument of foreign policy. <v Speaker>But the press in Haiti, at least the mainstream media, is so frequently an instrument <v Speaker>of U.S. foreign policy that for it to become one during a time of war, it's not at all <v Speaker>that surprising. And so much of what it what guides <v Speaker>press coverage of Haiti is foreign policy coming from the State <v Speaker>Department. <v Speaker>Bernie Weintraub, you covered the State Department or any. <v Speaker>It hurts when I beg your pardon burning. You covered the State Department for many years. <v Speaker>How do you how do you view what Amy just said? <v Speaker>I'd have to hear. <v Speaker>I think she and I have had this discussion we've had. <v Speaker>I think so. But I'd <v Speaker>have to have the specifics, because clearly part of the job of

<v Speaker>the Washington correspondents of any news organization is to report <v Speaker>what the government says and more importantly, what the government's doing. <v Speaker>That's part of what they're paid to do. <v Speaker>That whether, in fact, we are then becoming the handmaidens of American <v Speaker>policy is somewhat debatable. I think the overall coverage of the incidents <v Speaker>from our point of view has been fairly critical. <v Speaker>And this interested me. <v Speaker>I don't know if what you're talking about in, say, the coverage of Aristide himself. <v Speaker>Aristide has come across in the media, has a not <v Speaker>to touch fellow, I suppose. <v Speaker>And I think this may be disturbing to some people who are in <v Speaker>fact, I'm not talking about Washington correspondent sometime-, our correspondent in <v Speaker>Port-Au-Prince. And I agree with Mr. Quinten that the coverage this time around <v Speaker>has been very impartial. And there have been a lot of reporters who eye on the Haiti beat <v Speaker>down in Haiti. And I think they've brought a fresh eye to what sometimes they can <v Speaker>sort of cynical post where you go funds from embassy official at the embassy

<v Speaker>official and from approved embassy source to approved embassy site. <v Speaker>I'm not just talking about The New York Times, obviously, but the networks and also <v Speaker>the other major papers. And I think it's a problem in a place like anywhere. <v Speaker>Often the reporters don't speak the language of the people on the street and even <v Speaker>of many of the officials, France, I think it becomes a problem and they get directed <v Speaker>toward more American minded people and they end up reporting American policy. <v Speaker>I don't think that happened during this particular episode on either Zamfir. <v Speaker>How do you as a Haitian, how do you how would you rate the coverage? <v Speaker>Well, I'd like to two to agree with with Amy. <v Speaker>In fact, I do my personal experience. <v Speaker>I can give you two examples. <v Speaker>The first one is about Guantanamo. <v Speaker>I've been covering Guantanamo for the past three months. <v Speaker>And the two months ago there were the first <v Speaker>riot which took place was not known by the men press <v Speaker>the mainstream media for a good three days.

<v Speaker>Although the following day through my contacts on the camp, <v Speaker>I was aware of the riot and I called it a riot <v Speaker>because there were 65 people who were injured, at least half <v Speaker>of which needed- required hospi- hospitalization <v Speaker>of there were over 25 people incarcerated. <v Speaker>And I called personally, I call the Associated Press <v Speaker>National Public Radio. The New York Times I, there is a gentleman <v Speaker>whos an editor for, foreign editor is not Mr. GOZMAN, with whom <v Speaker>I've been to 10 good relations for a while. <v Speaker>Everybody told me wow that sounds like a very good story. <v Speaker>A little sweet for my correspondents in Washington. <v Speaker>What do we got? Two days later was exactly almost <v Speaker>ad verbatim the of the reports <v Speaker>that that came out of the Pentagon, for example, the riot was changed

<v Speaker>to a minor melee uh. <v Speaker>People were incarcerated. And I know there were there are <v Speaker>still cages, eight by 9, 6 foot steel- steel cages <v Speaker>in which they are they are they incarcerated Haitians who were <v Speaker>part of that riot. <v Speaker>The Pentagon called that been isolated. <v Speaker>And that's exactly what I read in the paper. <v Speaker>For example, the people were complaining that they were giving him rice and beans three <v Speaker>times daily. <v Speaker>The Pentagon said, well, they've got three meals and everybody <v Speaker>repeated exactly the same terms. <v Speaker>So I do agree and I could add another example is <v Speaker>this, that the mob violence. <v Speaker>And and it does something to most Haitian has a straddle <v Speaker>connotation. It's sort of to us concern <v Speaker>conjures up the the idea of of the common people.

<v Speaker>Of course, this is perhaps the classic definition of it. <v Speaker>But when this in my violence in Haiti versus police violence, <v Speaker>when we know, according to Human Rights Watch and many other rights organization, <v Speaker>the police themselves are a bunch of <v Speaker>it's a gang of criminals which fall basically under the definition of mob. <v Speaker>But when we hear mob violence, we clearly know they are <v Speaker>referring to the partisan of President Aristide. <v Speaker>Those, those are poor people, those masses. <v Speaker>And it bothers most of us. <v Speaker>And I could go on and on and on. <v Speaker>We're going to take a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about how you <v Speaker>tried to penetrate the veil in a situation where it was a great deal of <v Speaker>emotional and political partisanship on all sides and where the military <v Speaker>especially is involved. And we would very much like to have your calls. <v Speaker>2 1 2 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. <v Speaker>2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC.

<v Speaker>We'll be back right after this. <v Speaker>This is Larry Josephson. Next time on Bridges, I'll talk with conservative <v Speaker>David Frum. He's the author of Dead Right. <v Speaker>A new book, As Tough on Conservatives as it is on Liberals. <v Speaker>Frum believes conservatives had a mandate to cut big government but failed to deliver <v Speaker>when they were in office. That's David Frum. <v Speaker>Next time on Bridges, a liberal conservative dialog with Larry Josephson <v Speaker>Sunday night at 8:00 on WNYC. <v Speaker>A.M.A. 20, mostly cloudy skies this Sunday. <v Speaker>Temperature's around seventy five degrees tonight. <v Speaker>It'll be cloudy with a 40 percent chance of light rain late tonight. <v Speaker>Lows around 65. More rain expected tomorrow. <v Speaker>Sixty nine degrees and cloudy right now. <v Speaker>This is WNYC New York Public Radio. <v Speaker>We're back with ON THE MEDIA. I'm Alex Jones and we're talking about Haiti in the press

<v Speaker>with Rick MacArthur, publisher of Harper's Magazine, author of Second Front Censorship <v Speaker>and Propaganda in the Gulf War. Bernie Gwerksman, foreign editor of The New York Times. <v Speaker>Jean Jean-pierre freelance reporter for the Caribbean News Agency and others. <v Speaker>And Amy Willets, author of The Rainy Season Haiti Since Duvalier and a freelance <v Speaker>journalist whose stuff appears from Time to Time in Time and other other publications, <v Speaker>Bernie Gwerksman. But let me ask you before we move on, right before the break, <v Speaker>Jean Jean-Pierre was mentioning especially an item in that <v Speaker>had to do with whether it was a riot or something else that was occurring in at <v Speaker>Guantanamo Bay. What are the access problems there and how does one <v Speaker>try to get reliable, dispassionate information about what's going on <v Speaker>in a situation like that? <v Speaker>Guantanamo is a tough place to cover because journalists are not <v Speaker>allowed to stay there very long. <v Speaker>In other words, what's what's happened is the Pentagon allows

<v Speaker>visits by journalists on a daily basis almost. <v Speaker>You have to make a reservation and you fly down on a on <v Speaker>a chartered plane from Palm Beach and you can spend <v Speaker>the day there. I may be wrong and some of the details. <v Speaker>And then you can do whatever reporting you can do and then you'll have to fly <v Speaker>out. <v Speaker>Well do you remember this particular story? <v Speaker>No, I don't know. It may have happened while I was on vacation, but there <v Speaker>have been a number of stories I I remember more clearly, <v Speaker>riots or whatever you call them, involving Cubans, not so much the Haitians. <v Speaker>But I'm willing to to accept the version <v Speaker>we heard on the air. What I suspect happened was we just couldn't accept one <v Speaker>person's call and we had to check it out. <v Speaker>And that's what happened. <v Speaker>But the problem with that, if I may interrupt here, is, though, what happens is one turns <v Speaker>to then the authority and the authority tells you what they

<v Speaker>believe happened. But of course, they're deeply implicated in the story. <v Speaker>And of course, at Guantanamo, it's very difficult to get the real information and one <v Speaker>tends to rely on the authority. <v Speaker>And that is a problem. I think one thing that also happens is the I <v Speaker>think this has happened. I'm not sure, but this is the sense I got from the Aristide <v Speaker>government. At one point after the Governor's Island agreements were signed, the <v Speaker>U.S. government let it be known that Aristide had agreed to a fairly wide and sweeping <v Speaker>amnesty. Now, the entire time the U.S. <v Speaker>government was telling this to the media, including me, the Aristide <v Speaker>government saying we never agreed to it, we never agreed to it. <v Speaker>They're they're pushing us into this by telling the media we agreed to it. <v Speaker>Now I report it because I've known a lot of the people in that government for a long <v Speaker>time. I reported their side of it, although I wondered who was telling me the truth. <v Speaker>But that side of the story never got reported in the mainstream media because it was <v Speaker>assumed that the president of a foreign country was lying, that all his people were <v Speaker>lying, and that the US government was telling the truth.

<v Speaker>In fact, if you allow me, I covered the Governor's Island for the <v Speaker>United Nations radio, and I had followed the story <v Speaker>from the very, very beginning. <v Speaker>President Aristide did sign an amnesty. <v Speaker>Right. But according to Article 147 of the Constitution, he kept it is <v Speaker>he's authorized to sign only a political one, which he did. <v Speaker>And the military in Haiti said he said, no, <v Speaker>that's not enough. We want a broad amnesty which will covered <v Speaker>even the attachés, the people while we've been raping 13 year <v Speaker>old girls. <v Speaker>And that is something that I think the press has failed to <v Speaker>report, that the amnesty was signed. <v Speaker>Now they're asking for a general amnesty, which will of <v Speaker>which will definitely prevent third parties from <v Speaker>suing the oppressors, even in a civil court. <v Speaker>Speaking of the voice of authority, I was just wondering, did anyone check out

<v Speaker>President Clinton's statement that the military in Haiti was killing orphan <v Speaker>orphans? <v Speaker>Well, for your children, the story came from The New York Times. <v Speaker>Bernard, you. <v Speaker>Well, this is it. He was quoting almost verbatim from a <v Speaker>story that Rick Bragg did based on some interviews in <v Speaker>Port au Prince. I will, first of all, say, you know, I assume <v Speaker>the facts in there were correct. <v Speaker>I've I've heard since some people say that that these <v Speaker>were not orphans who are getting killed. <v Speaker>Other people have been denying that. <v Speaker>I'd be curious to hear what our experts. <v Speaker>I would just like to say about that story that that is exactly the kind of story, the <v Speaker>story about the military killing orphans, whether or not it actually happens. <v Speaker>That's exactly the kind of story that when. <v Speaker>The military is in favor with the United States government. <v Speaker>And we turn to the State Department to hear what they say about that, and they said the <v Speaker>military is not killing our offense. And that story doesn't go in the paper. <v Speaker>But when the military government is in disfavor with the State Department, that story

<v Speaker>goes in the paper. <v Speaker>Well, I think well, I mean, I know, you know, Howard French has been writing <v Speaker>about human rights violations in Haiti. <v Speaker>And he was also reporting that the embassy was trying to deny that we had <v Speaker>a lot of problems earlier in the year with at the time <v Speaker>here. Right at the time, the State Department was trying to make a deal <v Speaker>with the government. Much earlier on, they were trying to protect them against <v Speaker>charges. We we did not agree with the state and we tried to do our own reporting. <v Speaker>This story by Bragg, I don't think had much to do with anything except that <v Speaker>he's been he's been reporting it very well for the last two months on <v Speaker>human rights situation. What did he do? <v Speaker>Well, this highlights is the very great difficulty in getting information <v Speaker>that isn't filtered through some sort of some sort of foreign policy. <v Speaker>Well, you know, probably the biggest problem we have in reporting in Haiti, oddly enough, <v Speaker>is the difficulty of getting to any of the people in the military leadership

<v Speaker>services, except for Dan Rather. <v Speaker>I don't know anybody who's talked to General, as Peter Jennings <v Speaker>did also. Did he at one point? I mean, obviously, they were they accept TV. <v Speaker>The the writing press is treated. <v Speaker>There were other stations this day in contempt by the by the whatever <v Speaker>leadership there is. So. <v Speaker>Well, not yet. I'm sorry to cut you off, but there is an element that <v Speaker>is been missing and a lot of the reporting on Haiti are <v Speaker>out French whose was a friend of mine. <v Speaker>Although we we didn't start our friendship on a very good note. <v Speaker>It was exactly what a story on The New York Times. <v Speaker>What I respected. And that's why I missed reading his stories in Haiti. <v Speaker>Whether you want agrees with him or not, he respected the Asian people. <v Speaker>We try to learn to understand the culture. <v Speaker>You learn Creole. And I think that plays a very important role in <v Speaker>understanding Haiti and Amy.

<v Speaker>Amy, before she wrote the book, she spent a lot of time in Haiti <v Speaker>and you could understand 80 from reading books <v Speaker>at any university here. You have to go. <v Speaker>You have to to feel the culture. <v Speaker>It is it is unique. We're not unique people, but the culture. <v Speaker>It's a confluence of so many cultures. <v Speaker>And and you have to have a feel for it. <v Speaker>And I can tell you that David French did because he spend the <v Speaker>time to to understand and learn. <v Speaker>I'm not sure about that. <v Speaker>I see all sorts of examples in the foreign press. <v Speaker>But in fact, I'm looking at a story right now from The London Spectator, which told <v Speaker>me something I hadn't read anywhere in the American papers, that <v Speaker>in the invasion of 1915, Franklin Roosevelt claimed <v Speaker>credit for having rewritten the Haitian constitution to permit <v Speaker>foreign ownership of property in Haiti. <v Speaker>Paul Farmer wrote that already.

<v Speaker>Right. And then Glass reviews that book in the Times Literary Supplement. <v Speaker>Now, I can't claim to read every story in the Times. <v Speaker>Obviously, I didn't read Eric Schmidt piece on the on the orphan killings. <v Speaker>And I and I can't say I've read every daily newspaper report on Haiti in the last <v Speaker>couple of weeks, but I haven't seen that anywhere. <v Speaker>I'm curious to know what everybody thinks about the historical the perspective <v Speaker>of the media coverage. That's a shocking and fascinating fact. <v Speaker>Bernie, has the times given much attention to historical context? <v Speaker>You know, in the past, of course, we did. In fact, the Sunday week in review piece, which <v Speaker>I can I can't can remember every detail by Alain Savino on <v Speaker>the previous occupation and at some point probably will do. <v Speaker>In fact, I've asked for a longer piece going over the history of the 1915 <v Speaker>events. <v Speaker>Are you familiar with that particular piece of Asia? <v Speaker>Fascinating. It is. Let's get our listeners in on this conversation. <v Speaker>Jackie in New Jersey, hello. <v Speaker>I think an excellent program. Good morning.

<v Speaker>Good morning. I do this on many parts of the globe, including Northern Ireland, which has <v Speaker>been misreported until you go over and really learn the truth. <v Speaker>And as a writer, I have done that. However, we are in Haiti and I have two quick <v Speaker>questions. During the Bush administration, the CIA put <v Speaker>out all sorts of data that Aristide was not stable, that he was <v Speaker>all kinds of derogatory terms were used in terms of describing the man. <v Speaker>And now we hear that those reports from the CIA were all contrived. <v Speaker>And now we hear that he was elected by 70 percent of the people and that he is an <v Speaker>honorable man and he wishes to go back and try to help his people. <v Speaker>Have your guest this morning studied the two. <v Speaker>Different reports on Aristide. <v Speaker>And my last question is, Amy, are you related to Warren? <v Speaker>Do you go to your uncle? <v Speaker>You can take both of those quotes. <v Speaker>I worked for him. <v Speaker>Well, yeah, of course, I. <v Speaker>I've written a lot about President Aristide's on highly aware and have been aware all

<v Speaker>down the line about these two different points of view on him. <v Speaker>Especially if you would address the damaging each about the necklacing. <v Speaker>Oh, okay. The CIA report, of course, was not entirely about the necklacing speech, <v Speaker>but was about his psychological problems also. <v Speaker>And most most of the content of these CIA briefings to Congress have <v Speaker>been discredited. And the Clinton administration distanced itself from that report <v Speaker>almost immediately. The necklace in question is a sort of separate question. <v Speaker>There were also a lot of attacks right after Aristide was overthrown on the human rights <v Speaker>record of Aristide's seven months. <v Speaker>And most of the stuff was generated in a sort of PR campaign <v Speaker>by Aristide enemies in Haiti. But that doesn't mean none of it was true. <v Speaker>And there was a speech he gave on the day before he was ousted <v Speaker>in which he seemed to wink at, as people say, the practice of necklacing. <v Speaker>He called the necklace in Creole. <v Speaker>He called the necklace and the Constitution at the same time, a beautiful instrument that

<v Speaker>smells sweet. And so he is able to say, and quite rightly, I've examined the speech <v Speaker>and seen the videotape that he was talking about the constitution. <v Speaker>But I think it's clear and maybe I would agree with me, maybe not that he was <v Speaker>speaking of the necklace as well. <v Speaker>I agree. You know, President Aristide speaks in a lot of metaphors. <v Speaker>He imageries and analogies. <v Speaker>But you never said necklacing. You see articles, 291 smells <v Speaker>good. And that is one of the problems that I have. <v Speaker>Also, whenever they are quoting him and whether on television <v Speaker>you will see three dots before I smell good because they <v Speaker>take out the subject because it will have to be explained to the people. <v Speaker>What I was a metaphore and we know that's where he met because he never used the word <v Speaker>necklacing. And I would say quickly also the context <v Speaker>within which he he made that speech. <v Speaker>Everybody, even those of us live here in the United States knew there was a coup <v Speaker>underway. And in the past, for example,

<v Speaker>the Duvalier if there was any Villeda, any rumor of a coup, he would line <v Speaker>up officers and shoot them. <v Speaker>Aristide didn't do that because he wanted to abide by the Constitution. <v Speaker>What he did was this famous speech just to to <v Speaker>at least used to rally the people around him and to warn <v Speaker>the military that he had the people he had. <v Speaker>Exactly. And that turned out to be the speech that I think four wishes <v Speaker>feel pain. <v Speaker>Jacki, if I can just if I can just add some background on this to this <v Speaker>question. Sure. The fact is, a year ago, there certainly <v Speaker>was a strong feeling within the Pentagon in particular that Aristide <v Speaker>was not a very stable fellow. <v Speaker>And the CIA analysis, which was leaked in the first <v Speaker>place, I think both people, Senator Helms and his supporters on <v Speaker>the Hill, was believed by a number <v Speaker>of high officials in the Pentagon and played a fact,

<v Speaker>I think, in the complete disinterest or uninterested <v Speaker>in doing much to enforce the governor's island agreement when <v Speaker>when the Harwin was turned away. <v Speaker>The Pentagon certainly was in no mood to intervene by force <v Speaker>at that point. <v Speaker>I said that it is not because of the CIA report, of course, that the Pentagon and many <v Speaker>other institutions in the United States were not too happy about the idea of us <v Speaker>reinstating Aristide. But it was an habitual state of mind with the Americans not to want <v Speaker>to reinstate a left wing anti-American leader who preached socialism. <v Speaker>Well, yes. But let let me explain, though, Amy. <v Speaker>Sometimes when Americans hear entire American, I think it's entirely <v Speaker>know American policy. And in Haiti, all do. <v Speaker>This report was bought by by many, including the <v Speaker>Miami Herald. They're still they are still using it to this date. <v Speaker>Jacki, thank you very much for your call. We appreciate it. <v Speaker>I want to I want to shift gears for just a moment and ask you, Bernie Grossman, to talk

<v Speaker>about the differences, if you perceive them, between the the Clinton <v Speaker>administration and the Reagan Bush administrations as far as their dealings <v Speaker>with the press in a situation like this, especially in light of the sort of <v Speaker>pre-invasion meeting to set down ground rules for what was going to go down in in <v Speaker>what everyone thought was going to be an invasion. <v Speaker>Well, you know, every everything is different. <v Speaker>The in the Reagan administration, probably the most egregious <v Speaker>attack. It was the Grenada invasion, which <v Speaker>was a complete was this wasn't a complete surprise, <v Speaker>but it wasn't until like the day before it happened that people really realized that <v Speaker>something was up and there and there was only a small pool. <v Speaker>Plus whatever correspondents happened to be near the scene. <v Speaker>I mean, we I think we had a couple of reporters arriving at about the same time <v Speaker>the invasion did the the Persian Gulf we knew was gonna happen.

<v Speaker>And that was a I think the Persian Gulf will go down as a unique situation <v Speaker>in which you had is about a six month build up, followed <v Speaker>by several months. Cup was a two or three month. <v Speaker>I can remember now one month of heavy bombing, all from Saudi <v Speaker>Arabia country, which felt very uneasy with western press there <v Speaker>at the time in particular. <v Speaker>And the Pentagon was in no mood to <v Speaker>push the Saudis very far. <v Speaker>And then we had only a three day ground invasion of Iraq itself. <v Speaker>So if it had been a longer war, I'm sure things might have <v Speaker>improved a bit as far as the press was concerned. <v Speaker>But the fact is, it really was a very strange situation where a couple <v Speaker>of hundred thousand troops, lots and lots of reporters <v Speaker>with really time on their hands for a very long time and a very frustrating <v Speaker>operation. The thing in Haiti is, of course, you know,

<v Speaker>it's like the mouse that roared. Even if there had been an invasion, there wouldn't have <v Speaker>been, you know, as far as direct army to army contact, that would <v Speaker>have been over probably in a day or so. <v Speaker>But. And we could have done what we wanted to do. <v Speaker>The problem in Haiti is not the initial landing, but it's going to be the next <v Speaker>months. How the whole thing works out, how the political <v Speaker>thing straightens, what Aristide actually did. <v Speaker>What did the government seek in terms of controls and and, <v Speaker>you know, cooperation from the press on them on the immediate eve, on Haiti and Haiti, on <v Speaker>Haiti, as I understand it, the most interesting thing was their request of <v Speaker>the networks not to report until the planes were just about <v Speaker>there, the departure of the paratroopers from North Carolina. <v Speaker>That was the only request that I know of. <v Speaker>Of course, we weren't involved in that. The problem <v Speaker>and the networks, I think, agree to that, right?

<v Speaker>Yes, I understand. <v Speaker>But wasn't there in a group, wasn't there didn't they seek, for instance, that the <v Speaker>reporters stay in hotels or stay in areas for a period of time? <v Speaker>There's a little there's a little. <v Speaker>I'm not trying to be fair here in Haiti. <v Speaker>Of course, a number of the reporters were staying at a couple of hotels. <v Speaker>Our reporters are mostly in a hotel called the Montana and the American <v Speaker>Embassy in one of the briefings before the planned invasion, <v Speaker>told reporters that one of the first objectives of the Marines when they land <v Speaker>will be to secure the hotels, i.e., protect the reporters <v Speaker>inside against any reprisals. <v Speaker>The reporters interpreted that not wrongly, I suppose, as possible <v Speaker>sealing off of the hotels in name, and they complained they didn't need such protections. <v Speaker>They were afraid that they wouldn't be able to come and go freely and do <v Speaker>their job. The Pentagon claimed that that was not the intention that people <v Speaker>would be free to come and go when we raised it with them at as it turned out.

<v Speaker>The whole thing didn't matter. <v Speaker>We're talking about Haiti in the press. We're going to take a break. <v Speaker>And when we get back, we'll be taking more phone calls. <v Speaker>And we'd like to hear from you. 1 2 2 6 7 9 6 9 2. <v Speaker>That's 2 1 2 2 6 7 WNYC. <v Speaker>We'll be back right after this. <v Speaker>Join Garrison Keillor in Albuquerque, New Mexico this week and find out how the town got <v Speaker>its name, Garrison's musical guests include the Red Clay Ramblers and singer songwriter <v Speaker>Iris DEMENT. The guy's All-Star shoe band does great Western swing music, too, <v Speaker>with Danny Levon and Andy Stein on Twin Fiddles and Lucky Oceans on steel guitar. <v Speaker>Great music and the news from Lake Wobegon too a very young companion this week <v Speaker>from the Great Southwest. <v Speaker>Sunday afternoon at 2:00 on WNYC a.m. <v Speaker>8:20, this is on the media on WNYC. <v Speaker>President Clinton is scheduled to address the General Assembly of the United Nations <v Speaker>tomorrow morning at 11:00. WNYC will broadcast the speech live on A.M.A. <v Speaker>20 with anchored coverage by National Public Radio's Neal CONAN.

<v Speaker>And that's tomorrow morning at 11:00 on AM 8:20. <v Speaker>This is WNYC New York Public Radio. <v Speaker>I'm Alex Jones, and we're back with all the media talking about Haiti and the press with <v Speaker>Rick MacArthur, publisher of Harper's Magazine and author of Second Front Censorship and <v Speaker>Propaganda in the Gulf War. Bernie Gwerksman, foreign editor of The New York Times. <v Speaker>Jean Jean-Pierre freelance reporter who reports for the Caribbean News Agency and others. <v Speaker>And Amy Wilkins, author of The Rainy Season Haiti Since Duvalier. <v Speaker>And a freelance journalist whose work appears in many mainstream publications. <v Speaker>Rick MacArthur. <v Speaker>Alex, I just have to interrupt. I should. It's hard to be mean and combative on Sunday <v Speaker>morning. Go ahead. So I couldn't interrupt Mr. Gord's. <v Speaker>But but to make the Gulf War restrictions sound like <v Speaker>some sort of quirk of history. You know, some three day <v Speaker>blip in time is preposterous. <v Speaker>I mean, he knows very well that Grenada was a dress rehearsal for a Panama, <v Speaker>and Panama was a further refinement of Grenada and an even bigger dress rehearsal

<v Speaker>for the Gulf War and the Gulf War. <v Speaker>There was just an astonishing cave-in by The New York Times <v Speaker>and other major newspapers and networks and so on and so forth, which were very carefully <v Speaker>documented in my book about how they let the Pentagon get away <v Speaker>with it. Now, they agreed to these crazy pool regulations which <v Speaker>are still enforced, as I said. The reason we've got great coverage. <v Speaker>And let me just compliment your reporters down there, Mr. Gord's. <v Speaker>Man, John Kintner is one of the best reporters in the country. <v Speaker>Just a fabulous reporter. <v Speaker>And he doesn't have any particular Haitian experience, as far as I know, <v Speaker>when you're permitted to do their job. <v Speaker>They're fine. But institutionally, the Times and the other networks <v Speaker>got pushed around very badly in the Gulf War and throughout the Reagan <v Speaker>administration. The reason that's not happening now is for the very practical reason that <v Speaker>you already had reporters on the ground. <v Speaker>Well, the only point I was making, I don't. <v Speaker>Do you want to argue that first?

<v Speaker>No, no, I don't want to. We don't. I tell you what. <v Speaker>What what Bernie, what I would like for you to address is whether the change in <v Speaker>administration has made a change in the way the government deals with the press <v Speaker>in a situation like this. Do you perceive it that way? <v Speaker>Probably. Probably. I mean, I can't tell because this is such a strange <v Speaker>war. <v Speaker>Well, let me ask you this. If we were at war in a situation like the Gulf again, do you <v Speaker>think that the government would try to put the same restrictions that existed in the Gulf <v Speaker>in the previous? <v Speaker>We'll be very hard pressed to do it. <v Speaker>They might want to, but it would be very difficult because the press really <v Speaker>didn't like the experience in the Gulf War. <v Speaker>Well, some members of the press didn't like it. <v Speaker>Kifner didn't like it. You know, people like the real the great reporters didn't like it, <v Speaker>but a lot of reporters, in fact, the vast majority went along. <v Speaker>So I just that I I know I can't tell you what errors come back to this <v Speaker>in another show again. OK. It's an interesting subject. <v Speaker>It I think I disagree with Mr. McCarthy on some on some philosophic <v Speaker>points, basically coming down to how long the war was in the Persian <v Speaker>Gulf.

<v Speaker>But that's can I say one thing about John Kifner and how interesting it's been to see <v Speaker>him reporting in Haiti, you know, for so long. <v Speaker>I got the sense that no one was going out into the streets in Haiti. <v Speaker>And then suddenly Kifner comes in and it's like, oh, God. <v Speaker>He was there. Yeah. You know, he saw that. <v Speaker>He saw that. He saw that. He saw the people. He saw the army. <v Speaker>He saw everything. <v Speaker>Well, I don't want to do an ad for The New York Times because I'm so annoyed <v Speaker>with The Times and in so many other ways. <v Speaker>But you see in a guy like Kintner that the skills <v Speaker>of a police reporter. Right. Essentially applied to or just loitering, which is or which <v Speaker>is what meant. Well, when all good reporters are fundamentally and you know, some.