Forum; War on Drugs; Part 1

Good morning, this is for our number two, I'm Michael Krasny. Welcome. We are coming to you live from the KQED studios here in San Francisco. America went to war and it lost the federal drug policy with emphasis mainly on enforcement, has eaten up nearly one hundred billion dollars since nineteen eighty one. And it's neither diminished the number of drug addicts nor reduce the level of drug related felonies. Moreover, drug use among the young has gone up and drugs are cheaper and more widespread than they were a decade ago. Americans lose about 60 billion dollars a year in business due to costs related to drug abuse, and conviction for drug offenses has doubled in state prisons over the last 10 years. Not all the news is bad, however. Programs involving education, treatment and prevention, community policing and drug courts, as well as media campaigns can reduce drug use. And in today's hour of Forum, we're going to look not only at drug use and abuse, particularly among young people, but we're going to consider what can be done. And with us to do that, Dr. Lee Brown, who is director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy. Welcome to the program. Thank you, Michael. It's great to be with you. And I'm pleased to have you here. We also have with us in studio Jacinda Abcarian, who is a reporter with Youth Radio. She did a piece that we're going to hear in this hour and is a student at Laney College.

Good morning. Welcome and welcome also to Wesley Burton, who is a reporter with Youth Radio. He is a senior at the Street Academy, an alternative high school in Oakland. Glad to have you here. How are you doing? I'm doing OK. And let me begin with Dr. Brown, if I may. Um, education and treatment of law enforcement. That's what we were hearing from the Clinton administration. Sounds like a good idea to many people and an idea whose time has come. We're a long way from that. We're having some very serious problems in our Congress right now. We have what's called a safe and drug free schools and Communities program, some four hundred eighty two million dollars to provide funds to 74 percent of the school districts in this country to teach our young people not to use drugs. Unfortunately, the House is now considering a proposal to wipe that out to rescind. That means take back funds that are already appropriated. To me, that's outrageous. At a time when we find that drug use is going up, our Congress representatives are taking about taking back the funds that serve as a cornerstone of drug educational programs in our school districts.

We have to do something about that. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's it's hypocritical when we have a concern about the drug problem. Yet the funds that are available to do things such as our DARE program, our educational programs from kindergarten all the way to the 12th grade to take those funds back. It does look gloomy from this perspective in terms of the Republican majority in its attempt to gut those funds. But aside from education and the question could be asked, does education really work and to what extent is education really work? Let's talk first about treatment, because only about a quarter of those who abuse drugs actually go out and seek help to kick the problem. And that number is even less when you look in the inner city and when you look in the areas of poverty in this country. Let me just maybe talk about the state of the drug problem, which will give us the focus. And I can do that by summarizing it, by making three points. Number one, over a period of years, we've seen a substantial reduction in non addicted or if you would, to casual drug user population. At its peak back in the 1980s, we had some twenty five million Americans using

drugs on a regular basis. By that I mean once a month, that's down to eleven point four million Americans, far, far too many. Point number two, we've seen no progress whatsoever in reducing the number of chronic, hardcore addicted drug users. Now there are about two point seven million Americans that are addicted to drugs, what we call the chronic hardcore drug users. That demand is even higher. One could argue that, well, that's what we know about. That's the best estimation we can make at this time. About six hundred thousand are addicted to heroin, two point one million addicted to cocaine. We're not seeing any progress there. And I'm very much concerned that the heroin is now coming back on the streets of our cities. High purity, low, low price that people can snorted or smoke it without worrying about the injection. Point number three, which is probably the most troubling of all. The service we take is the fact that our young people are now using more drugs, particularly marijuana, and to a lesser degree, LSD and inhalants. And equally disturbing is the fact that they do not view drug use as dangerous as

has been the case in the past. Based upon those figures, the president released his 1995 National Drug Control Strategy to the Congress and indeed the American people on the 8th of February this year. The overarching goal of his strategy is to reduce the consumption of drugs in America. And we feel the best way to accomplish that is to put a greater emphasis and more resources and prevention, education and treatment. You posed the question of the treatment work. Yes, treatment does work and I know that from practical experience I have a career in law enforcement over 30 years, police chief in Houston, Atlanta and Commissioner of police in New York City. In fact, I started my police career in California down the road in San Jose. And when my first assignment was an undercover narcotics officer, I've seen it from the ground floor all the way up to heading the largest police department in America. And so I visited treatment centers, many here in San Francisco, and I know it makes a difference in the lives of those who are addicted. We also have empirical studies. The Rand Corporation recently completed a study where they looked at the various

modalities for reducing drug use in America. They pointed out that the most cost effective one was treatment. Recently here in the state of California, the most extensive study ever done on treatment was conducted. That study pointed out that for an investment of two hundred nine million dollars back in nineteen ninety two for treatment, the taxpayers of California that they were saved one point five billion dollars. To me, that's a pretty good investment treatment. Not only good drug policy, it's good crime policy. It's good health policy. It's good economic policy, basically as good urban policy. That is the reason the president, through his budget request to Congress, is attempting to reduce the void between those who need and can benefit from treatment and the ability of this country to deliver those services. But you're saying, in effect, that the legislative majority does not agree with the president, but we've had serious difficulty in the Congress for this fiscal year. For example, the president requested three point fifty five million new dollars for treatment. We got 57 million far, far less from what we need.

If we look at what is happening this year, we find that the Congress is now taking back the things we had, for example, in the crime bill. We have funds for the very successful drug court program, which will allow judges to give nonviolent offenders an option to tell them you can go into treatment, get your life back on track, and the criminal charges will be dropped. Now they're taking that those funds, along with the prevention funds and rolling them into a law enforcement block grant to the states with no strings attached. That includes 100000 new police officers that the president promised to put on the streets to implement the very successful concept of community policing. So I'm very disturbed about, I think, the stir, not the right word. I'm outraged about what the Congress is doing. We look at the drug issue, particularly taking funds that are available to our young people and using them for other purposes. I think it's wrong. I think it's a mean spirited and it's the certainly the wrong thing to do when we find drug use going up in America at this point in time, there may be a number who are outraged, Dr. Brown, at your position on something.

So let's get let's clear the air about this. You have been really tough with respect to marijuana and those who maybe even just want to decriminalize drugs or make a kind of pecking order as to what drugs are most serious. Feel that this old argument about the gateway effect isn't one that ought to be taken seriously, that despite the things that you've said about marijuana, for example, and heavy use being damaging and marijuana having much more time than tobacco in these kinds of things, nevertheless, that what we need to do is deemphasize marijuana as a drug and put more emphasis on more serious and more harmful drugs. We should do all of that. I think it's a mistake to glamorize drug use, particularly marijuana, among our young people. It's not a myth to say that marijuana is a gateway drug. We know from empirical research and research recently completed by the Colorado who at one time was the secretary of H.W., that young people who use alcohol, who smoke tobacco cigarets and use marijuana, marijuana are much, much more likely to use harder drugs. That's an empirical fact based upon empirical research.

I know from my own experiences that those who do not use alcohol, those who do not smoke, those who do not use marijuana, are less likely to use harder drugs. But by the same token, we have to keep in mind that the marijuana that's on the streets today is much more potent than the marijuana that was used 10, 15, 20 years ago. And as a result, the medical profession tells us that chronic use of marijuana can indeed cause both physiological as well as mental problems for those who use it. And so we are not about to entertain the idea of legalizing or decriminalizing marijuana. We intend to focus on no use, period. That's the reason through the auspices of the Partnership for Drug Free America. We've kicked off a massive public service campaign on television where the president himself has participated in one of those public service announcements. Our message to young people is no use, no meaningful benefit can be served by people using illegal drugs.

Let's talk with some of our young people. Wesley Burton, as I said earlier, who is a reporter with Youth Radio and a senior at the Street Academy and Alternative High School in Oakland with us in studio. I'm reading statistics that fewer percentage of students actually believe that marijuana is harmful to help not necessarily put this focus on marijuana. But do you hear kids essentially saying that some drugs are more potent, more harmful, and maybe marijuana is not one of those marijuana? It's not really taking. No. At least in school. No, that is not really taking serious. Because I mean, everybody smokes weed and stuff, so. So it's it's not regarded as being all that harmful or to be of concern with like our other how much or other drugs, more serious drugs like heroin, for example, heroin is getting more popular, believe it or not, is what Dr. Brown said. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people I know, they started to snort and smoking and stuff. Does just say no work. No, not really, because that's what the previous administration's first lady at least tried to essentially tell kids they ought to do, just say no to drugs.

Right? Just it's bad. They're bad, and you ought to avoid them. If that doesn't work, what does what gets what do you think gets kids to say, I'm not going to get high, I'm not going to use drugs when there's all that attempt to influence them and all that peer pressure and all that desire to get wasted. So what I mean, if you show someone what drugs do to you, I mean how you can calm down instead you say no matter. Right, but bring someone in, show, show a drug addict, show how the show is like our vessels and stuff. So show a child that, you know, don't start to believe. You just say no. Then why not once you see that on the streets? Some extent. But know it's more like. Ethelwyn else. It's not it's not somebody that I have an identity with or something that I can get to know as a person Will Tariq is with us in Studio two. He's going to be attending Holy Name College in the fall, also works with Youth Radio. Welcome to the program. Glad to have you used to go out and sell drugs and teen projects. Come a little closer to the microphone here. Uh, first of all, what made you give it up going to jail?

Quite a few times. It made me give it up. And I don't make a believer out of you. Yeah, but a brother here was talking about a. The drugs getting more famous, they I don't think they'll get more famous or get more play. They've already been out there as far as weed. I don't think you can bring some older dope fiend in or someone who shoots heroin and look at the tracks on his arm and tell some kid, if you don't want tracks like this, don't do drugs, because they show me that although I didn't go to heroin, I smoked weed. What stopped me from smoking marijuana was my own experience. What? I didn't like the high, so I stopped smoking. And even now, like I was just saying, you say it, just say, no, don't work. I mean, to do work. I tell my friends, no, they'll keep orphaning off on it. And if you so if you if your willpower is so weak that you can't say no to these people who you call your friends, then you need to get away from them. You know what I'm saying? What's the attraction of drugs, though? Is it is it the friends largely? Or is it just one thing that has been cool as people who want to look old? Some like people are actually I'm talking like people like 13, 14,

15. They'll look up to people like my age. They'll say, OK, these are what we call the DJ's, the gangsters with the role models in the neighborhoods we come from. So they want to look at us and they say, OK, I'm smoking weed. They'll come around us. They want to smoke some weed or something like that that don't make you look cool. If you listen and, you know, going to school and getting an education make you look cool. You I'm saying not only makes you look cool, it makes you cool because maybe you can get one of these old guys out of jail when you become a lawyer or something like that. You I'm saying they want to basically impress older people by going into drugs, drinking alcohol or staying out late night. Listen to what they moms and pops tell them to do. That's basically it. But in order to stop all this, you have to stop drugs from coming in. You know, that's the way to stop it. I mean, this government is one of the most powerful countries and this is one of the most powerful countries in the world. And they can't stop drugs from coming in. Do you think the supply is more important than the demand? Oh, of course. If there was no drugs, if there if there were no drugs here, period. Of course, there's a bunch of people who's hooked now from them being here.

But if there were no drugs here, how would they be able to come across them just in there? You were going to say something just up here and also with youth radio. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I do think that the supply has a lot to do with it, but I do think that the the demand is one of the most important things among drug abuse, because if you think about it, yes, crack is here. Now, what are we going to do about it? Which you have to do is you have to you have to get rid of the demand, which means how are you going to get rid of the demand? The supply is always going to be there. We can't count on the government or we can't count on the national security to keep drugs from coming in here, because obviously for centuries it hasn't worked. Right. So we have to get rid of the demand. How are we going to do it? The only way to do it is through prevention programs. Will, we'll mention the the music, though, and the culture and so forth. How much anything about music? Well, I'm sorry, didn't you say something about gangster? I was a gangster rap and being a gangster gangster rap. I said being a DJ coming up in a neighborhood like that, you was raised like from eight on up to go out there and fight and slinging dope.

And, you know, I'm saying basically like a lack of animal, that's that's how we treat it. That's that's how that's how they look at us. The little kids see that. They see somebody tough like that. They don't look at the TV and say they want to be like Mike Tyson or some I mean, of course, Mike Tyson because he's a good fighter. But somebody like let's see your role models essentially like Bill Cosby is not going to work. He's not a role model to me that The Cosby Show ain't real. If it is real, it's not real where I'm from. So it's not necessarily a lot of people will say we're hearing this gangsta rap and that's influencing kids. You're saying that's what's out on the streets. The gangsta rap reflects real. Yeah, basically gangsta rap or funk reflects what's going on. You like I was talking to his brother not long ago. He said you come out to your house and you see somebody get popped in the head and you write a rap about it. Are you are you promoting violence or are you just saying what goes on, you say and what goes on? But there's a whole lot of gangsta rap not to lead on. Often a gangsta rap, but there's people who just make stuff like that and it don't even happen. They say they shot this person and did this and did that and they did a darn

thing. But we're reading, for example, that there's a much stronger link between those who use drugs and those who are involved in violence or gangster activity or criminal activity of any kind or who threaten teachers or for that matter, threaten themselves, commit suicide. You see this just in the for example, the strong link between drugs and violence. No, I would I would I would say that the whole subject here is drugs. Now, if you want to go into violence, that can be a whole other thing or just say that drugs is directly linked to violence because it can't. And a lot of situations, poverty is linked to violence. A lot of a lot of youth are out there with no options. They have nothing to do. It's like you see a teenager on the street that's not in school. Well, why not? Maybe the school system is failing them. Maybe they can't get a job. Why can't they get a job? Because adults aren't hiring them. There are no programs now out there for teens to get into for free. I'm from youth radio. That's that's a cool program for people to go in. It's free for youth. It's giving them something to do. But there there's rarely any programs out there for. Any young person to get into so it's obviously going to be easy for them to go get

into a life of drugs, especially if they're there one and especially if they've they haven't been taught. Dr. Brown, you obviously agree that kids need something to replace that sense of void in their lives or the feeling that their life is going nowhere, that maybe spurs them onto drugs. But you mentioned the pride program before, and I don't think violence is irrelevant. The Pride program that Atlanta drug prevention groups showed that there was a relationship between drugs and violence, very intimate one. Their research show that they questioned young people themselves, thousands and thousands, young people. That's what young people are telling them. I happen to know it myself. I've been on the streets of our cities throughout this country for years and years, and I've seen it happen firsthand. I know that there is a direct relationship between drug use and crime and violence. There is no dispute about that. That's one of the reasons I'm very much concerned about, again, what the Congress is doing. They're not only going to intimidate the four point eighty two million dollars for our drug and Safety Schools program, but also eliminate funds for our young people to have summer youth employment programs.

To me, that doesn't make sense, as the young people here are saying they need something to do. And this program provides them with something to do. When a cut in our educational programs goes to a very effective program, they want to cut in our programs for housing and homelessness all the things that will help young people grow up with a clear mind and reach their full potential or not. Now, on the cutting block by the Congress, I am particularly concerned about the safe and drug free schools moneys. The state of California now has appropriated almost 50 million dollars. Now the Congress has its way. All of that money will be taken away from the state of California. California should be outraged about that, just as I am. How can we provide an educational opportunity for our children from kindergarten all the way to the 12th grade about the drug problem? We know more about prevention and education right now. We know, for example, that we have to tell the truth.

We can't scare young people from using drugs. We have to give them the facts and they can make the decision. There must be a consistent message. That message must be no use. There is no benefit derived from using drugs. By the same token, the message must be geared toward the age group we're trying to reach, and it must also be culturally relevant. If we can combine all those factors, I think we can make a difference. But that doesn't mean that the government alone can address the problem. We have to want to change from within. What about community policing then? You've been a police chief and I know that there's some concern that that could lead to vigilante type of activity, but community policing their own neighborhood, shutting down crack houses, those kinds of things. Well, I'm a strong supporter of community policing. In fact, the president's request for 100000 new police officers to put on the streets of our cities, that's a request for the implementation of community policing. Community policing involves preventing as well as arresting. It involves a partnership working with the people in many neighborhoods. The police officer can serve as a positive role model for young people. I just left a school over in Oakland, for example, where their officers were in the elementary school providing instruction to young people about the drug

problem. So there are things that can be done using the police officer in a positive way. I think I heard a little from will hear. And will you want to comment on why you responded that way coming in? No, I was just thinking about the hundred thousand new police that, as you said, Clinton was talking about putting down on the streets. Part of the crime bill passed by the Congress last have never had an experience with the police officer where he was on my side most of the time. He the police officers I've been in contact with have been out to take me to jail. You know what I'm saying? So I look you your questioning drugs, you know, even even when you're not if you look like me and you're walking down the street and you live in a in a in a poor neighborhood or the inner city or the urban part of town, then the police are going to bother you. They come to harass you, they'll harass you, they'll stick you in the car. They'll take you somewhere to an alleyway. They'll beat you up, they'll they'll kick you down, they'll tear you up and they'll just it's total mayhem. It's like it's a it's a gang that has a badge

and a gun and the laws of the country behind them. LaBron Well, if that has happened, it's wrong. Of course. I mean, you can't say is wrong. Let me finish my. Because you're supposed to say what you signed into law. You won't let him respond if you would. Go ahead, Dr. Brown. He's respectful, young man. He let me respond. Community policing is different than traditional policing. It's really policing. What we want to see is an officer assigned to a neighborhood on a permanent basis getting to know the people who live there and working with the people who live in the neighborhood to do a couple of things. Number one, to identify the problems that bring about a low quality of life in the neighborhood, working with the people to solve the problems. The objective of community policing is to become a. Partner with the people who live there, including young people, anything such as our young friend there was talking about would be contrary to what community policing is about. We're not talking about business as usual. We don't want to put more police officers on the streets to continue traditional police

who want to change the way police in America work. We wanted to become partners assigned to a neighborhood responsible not only to the police department, also to the people who live in the neighborhood. We want them to live up to the oath that they took. Their oath is to protect their rights that are guaranteed to every American by the Constitution of the United States. That's what community policing is about. It's a new way of thinking about policing, a new way of delivering police services designed to work with the people to improve the quality of life in the various neighborhoods throughout this country. Just in you are going to say something which you're talking about community policing. But it may be a new approach, but it's still just policing. How much can policeman do you see? You bring them into the neighborhood, but what can they do if they don't have funds to help build a program in the in the in the community or they don't have funds to build a gym or something for teens to do? How much can they really do? If you think about all they're really doing is putting more drug addicts behind bars or drug sellers behind bars, which is really looking at it as if the drug abusers are the enemy, when in actuality

they're victims. In my opinion, I would think that bringing a police officer into an elementary school classroom is just going to glamorize policemen. And it's not really going to it's going to make the children look up to this policeman and see their their parent who's on drugs as the enemy or their brother or their cousin who's on drugs as the enemy, which I don't think is really helping the problem at all. Well, there's no one answer. We have to do a lot of different things. We have to start in the family. Parents have to assume responsibility for their children. Individuals have to assume responsible for their own actions. We must put aside our differences and work together in order to make a difference. If we ask how does the Clinton administration drug control strategy differ from previous administrations, a two to two major differences. Number one, we believe we must put a greater emphasis and more resources in reducing the demand for drugs. And how do you do that? Prevention programs, education programs and treatment programs. That differs in a significant way. We do not see drug control as being isolated from other policy.

For example, who we talk about job development. To me, that's drug control. We talk about health care reform. We have treatment as part of the national health care system. That's drug control. We talk about providing decent housing for people, that's drug control. We talk about education reform and making sure that people receive a decent education that's drug control, a point being that if we want to make sure we address the problem, we have to focus on more than just the symptoms of drugs and crime and violence. We also have to focus on the underlying causes. And that's the approach that we're taking in this administration. We don't rely solely on the criminal justice system as a means of addressing the drug problem, but rather we must look at drug abuse as being part and parcel of the other problems we have in our society. The problem is how much can you do more than talk about it? I guess it's the usual phrase. Here, let me let me get back to a question about how kids are motivated. I want to ask Wesley Burton, first of all, and then come back to Walter Reed and then we're going to hear something that was put together for youth radio and, of

course, give you an opportunity to join us by phone already having given out the number and all our colleagues are lining up, as you might imagine, people are calling in. Let me ask you, Will excuse me, Wesley, just about the sense of how perhaps something like religion and faith can help motivate people toward better values or young people get people, young people off drugs? Certainly in the prisons, for example, a lot of people who are incarcerated give up drugs and go on a better life because of religion, because of their faith. How does that work out in the streets with young people? It doesn't work. It can't work. It doesn't always work or doesn't work often. And if you if you put your faith and religion, your faith in yourself, of course, you can get off drugs. You could stay away from drugs. But you know you need it. You need some to model your faith after. You need someone to see who has their faith when they got off of drugs. But Will, what turned you around? You said suddenly it was cool to go to colleges and to be a person and to make something of yourself as opposed to just being out there in the streets. What reverse that for you? Well, first, it was a knock on the head from going to jail.

I ended up in the state penitentiary when I was 17. But not only that. When I got out, I started seeing people who were messed up of drugs off the same stuff I'm selling, I'm killing the people who look just like me. I start seeing little babies with no diapers all running around a projects naked with shit on the excuse. The expression you are in a radio, it would be here. So I see my people looking in a messed up state or condition. And I felt that it was my job to stop selling my people drugs and try to get some of them off of it. So it wasn't just going to jail. In a sense. You got to kind of religion. I mean, you got faith or a belief in something. Belief in myself. Belief and my belief in your own identity that basically belief that ain't nobody gonna help us but us. So we got to get up off our butt and start helping ourselves, because I see that the no matter how many programs you bring in and no matter what you do to try to provide a better way for people to get off drugs, it's just another plot, a scheme to get something for yourself. So we basically got to get up on bus and do it ourselves.

Anybody going to do so? Labor on how does administration get young people like this involved in this effort? I mean, if you could enlist them, you could have troops out there doing this kind of work for you. I love to take him around because I travel throughout the country with a better message than anyone else can deliver. I think the question I would pose is, how do you get that message out to other young people and to Wesley, I take it you haven't used drugs. What kept you from using drugs? But you will. How do you get your message to other young people? You've experienced this. There's nobody better able to talk about the problem of drug use or someone who's gone through it. Well, Wesley, why did you avoid drugs? Like I said, you know, you need I mean, you have to see what drugs test you. My father, he's on drugs now. I haven't seen him in six years. But last time I seen him, you know, he was stealing money from my mother, my mother, you know, they were divorced and everything. Both my uncles on my mother's side, drugs. One died from drugs. So, I mean, drugs have been around me. I had some good negative role models, so to speak.

Yeah, we're going to hear this piece and then we're going to take your calls. And by the way, if you'd like to join us, it's four one five eight six three to four seven six in the four one five area code. Again, all the lines are occupied right now, but we're at eight six three twenty four seventy six. You can also join us by going to the keyword talk and pressing on the chat icon. If you're a member of Mercury Center or America Online, become involved in the program through one of the chat lines. Twenty year old, you send a person who has been speaking with us here on this program and as a student at Laney College and a reporter and producer for Youth Radio, interviewed some Bay Area 15 to 20 year olds asking about what drugs they're using. And this is what he came up with. I know you'll be smoking pot smoking, pot smoking pot all over the world. The new craze is mostly around it. Around the Philly blight, a blight is emptied out. Cigar, you take it and you replace the contents with marijuana. Oh, I'm sixteen at least family with me, which is we drink drinking, but a of our friends, I try and have everybody is doing

hot right now and that's another form of heroin. It's Louhi. You know, something new is out there. It's been around for a long time. But right now everybody who's young is actually getting into it and they get into so strong, so ridiculous for me to go out and be able to party. I wanted to be able to stay up and be able to only get like two hours sleep, crystal meth. It's a lot more popular than, say, crack with younger kids than it is with adults because it's really cheap. So I to hit a crystal meth, it could be as cheap as five dollars. And it gives you a longer high. I say with crack one hit a crack too. I mean, that's like that's twenty bucks. I'm starting to hear more at the hip hop crowd reaching into the psychedelic drugs like LSD and mushrooms and peyote. I like the same experience, but I'm having a good time tonight. Well, let's hope he speaks for itself. Congratulations.

It's a good basis. It effectively said a very good girl speaks volumes indeed. Let's take your calls. Paul from Oakland, our first caller. Good morning. Yes, I think everybody is missing, I think and I got a couple of questions. And the doctor is one, I think the basic force that no matter how much education and stuff you do, I care what happens to the drug trade. It is money. The US government in a lot of people in high powered places are making crazy money with drugs. And no matter what we do about it, with the money involved with drugs, it would never, ever leave our scene no matter what we teach our kids, because too many powerful people are making too much money and all the drugs is coming over here with the United States government, FBI, CIA, with tons of tons coming in. There's no way they can't know who bring anything in for what purpose. Well, Dr. Brown, you know the argument if you legalize drugs, then you won't have those huge sums of money. Well, that's not the question he's asking now, but he's suggesting that people are making lots of money and.