Chicago Tonight; 1990 - Excerpts

<v Henry Hyde>Let me ask you a question. Was your son drafted in the military <v Henry Hyde>to be taken over there? Is he over there against his will? <v Alex Molnar>I want to answer that, Senator. I wish you would, because I think it shows a cynical <v Alex Molnar>disrespect for the brave young men and women who are serving in Saudi <v Alex Molnar>Arabia. They enlisted Senator Hyde. <v Alex Molnar>And as you well know, there are two sides to every contract. <v Alex Molnar>And the contract that my son signed, he is fulfilling that obligation. <v Alex Molnar>However, as you know, the other side of the contract is that the government <v Alex Molnar>and the officials of the United States will not use our soldiers for purposes for <v Alex Molnar>which they were not intended and they were intended to protect and defend this country <v Alex Molnar>and its Constitution and Senator - Mr. Hyde. <v Alex Molnar>Well, you swore an oath of allegiance when you took office to the Constitution of the <v Alex Molnar>United States of America. <v Alex Molnar>And the Constitution says that it doesn't matter if George Bush consults with you <v Alex Molnar>or informs you, the Constitution of the United States says that only Congress <v Alex Molnar>shall declare war. <v Henry Hyde>All right. John, is it my turn?

<v Alex Molnar>Yes, sir. <v Henry Hyde>Yeah. I really don't need a lecture from you, Professor, about the Constitution. <v Henry Hyde>I mean, were you ever in the service? <v Alex Molnar>What difference does that make? <v Henry Hyde>Well, I want to know. Yes or no? <v Alex Molnar>No, Senator. <v Henry Hyde>I didn't think so. <v Alex Molnar>So what is your point, Senator? <v Henry Hyde>My point is that I don't need it. <v Henry Hyde>I don't need a lecture from you about an obligation to my country because <v Henry Hyde>I fought in World War Two in combat in the South Pacific. <v Henry Hyde>So I know quite a bit about the situation you're describing now. <v Alex Molnar>So did many people in our network, Mr. Hyde. <v John Callaway>Let Mr. Hyde finish. <v Henry Hyde>That's great. Now, let me just say this. <v Henry Hyde>Nobody wants a war. We all know the Constitution gives the <v Henry Hyde>Congress the exclusive power to declare war. <v Henry Hyde>But we also know that something might happen over there before a chance <v Henry Hyde>is obtained for us to declare war. <v Henry Hyde>The president, as commander in chief under the Constitution, has the <v Henry Hyde>right to deploy forces. <v Henry Hyde>He has the support of Congress right now because if he didn't, we'd <v Henry Hyde>be in session passing resolutions requiring the soldiers to come

<v Henry Hyde>home. It is a fact, however, that the president has got to get the support <v Henry Hyde>of the people of this country and the Congress, as well as probably the U.N. <v Henry Hyde>for any offensive tactics to occur. <v Henry Hyde>Meanwhile, our national interests are being protected over <v Henry Hyde>there. And, yes, it concerns oil and yes, it concerns domination <v Henry Hyde>of the Persian Gulf by a dictator, Saddam Hussein, who could bring <v Henry Hyde>the whole world into a depression by controlling that very <v Henry Hyde>valuable resource. We have national interests over there that concern our defense, <v Henry Hyde>the economy of the free world. <v Henry Hyde>And that's why they're over there. <v John Callaway>I have a follow up question and then I want to hear from Mr. Muller. <v John Callaway>You say that something might happen that would cause the president <v John Callaway>to take action without consulting the Congress. <v John Callaway>Could you give us an example of what that something might be or a couple of examples, <v John Callaway>Congressman Hyde? <v Henry Hyde>Yes. If if Saddam Hussein decides that he's in an untenable situation <v Henry Hyde>and launches an attack either across the border into Saudi Arabia

<v Henry Hyde>or across Jordan into Israel, to change the dynamic over there, the <v Henry Hyde>president would have the right. Historically, they have had it and have it under the <v Henry Hyde>Constitution to deploy the forces, to defend our <v Henry Hyde>troops over there and our cause over there before a declaration of war <v Henry Hyde>would be declared. <v John Callaway>Mr. Molnar, do you agree with that? <v Mr. Molner>It sounds like the same old world order to me, as I say again. <v Mr. Molner>I would like Congressman Hyde to ask the president of the United States how many body <v Mr. Molner>bags have been ordered for Operation Desert Shield that I think the American <v Mr. Molner>people deserve to know. <v John Callaway>I would assume that if everything you are saying is true, that you then <v John Callaway>must be or your government then must be extremely disappointed <v John Callaway>with Saudi Arabia and with other Gulf states who, <v John Callaway>after all, were also protected. <v John Callaway>I'm told by you during the war with Iran. <v John Callaway>And who didn't have to do the dirty work, as it were, for those eight years.

<v John Callaway>Now they go with the United States. <v John Callaway>My question, and perhaps this will sound a little pejorative but let me put it to you <v John Callaway>this way. Don't you then see those states as revealing their true colors <v John Callaway>as client states of the United States because of the oil relationship? <v John Callaway>And wouldn't you want then? And don't you find yourself then in a state <v John Callaway>of understandable hostility with their behavior in this crisis? <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Well, first of all, let me inform you, if they are not <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>only client state, but they are puppet states. <v John Callaway>That's all right. Let's call them puppet states. <v John Callaway>Let's go with it. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>OK. And do you know right after the cease fire <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>in the war between Iraq and Iran, which took place on August 20th, <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>1988 there were some American emissaries <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>going to the Gulf. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Contacting the governments there, informing them to

<v Mohamed Al-Mashat>be afraid of Iraq. In other words, to implant in their head. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>To be afraid of Iraq because Iraq came out the victor. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>And now Iraq has a big army. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>It's all of this. This is part and parcel of a preconceived plan. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>To occupy. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>The patrol, the patrol area, as you did. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Now you occupy Saudi Arabia, Qatar now and Emirates and all of this. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>And then. There was another objective of <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>the United States offensive buildup. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>It's to destroy Iraq. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Because Iraq. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Is a country with lots of bright pan-Arabists, <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>consider the Palestinian problem it's the is the major <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>problem. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>And definitely part and parcel of American motivation <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>was contributed by the Israeli lobby in this country.

<v Mohamed Al-Mashat>So this is what happened because you see, I am really shocked <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>to hear some people. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Mass media and even people with position, whether elected position <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>or appointed position. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>They throw such words as saying now the Iraqis, they cannot talk to <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>the Arabia. Everybody has a short memory. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>If we have harbored any bad intention against through their <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Arabia, let alone the fact that we have non-aggression pact, <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>that we have had no problem with Saudi Arabia, that we had excellent <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>relations with Saudi Arabia, when we took action against Kuwait, it was <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>on the statement of Yogesh. <v John Callaway>So you have excellent relations with Saudi Arabia, which you also but you also call them. <v John Callaway>And I and I think you're sincere when you call them. <v John Callaway>This is why premised my question the way I did. <v John Callaway>You called him a puppet state. Therefore, if we think that you think that Saudi Arabia is <v John Callaway>a puppet state and the other Gulf states are puppet states, why wouldn't we then

<v John Callaway>say we can't trust these people, that they'll stop at Kuwait? <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Well, because for a very simple reason, the simple reason that we <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>understand that this is a strategic area for the United States, <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>we haven't touched it. We know what it means is number one. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Number two, we don't need their oil. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>We don't need anything of that because we have the second proven reserves <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>of oil. We have no ambition in that. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>And then there is another proof. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>When we went into Kuwait, it was on the 2nd of August. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>We could have gone right through because we have 1000 km with Saudi <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Arabia, with 1000 km of border. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>We didn't have to go only from south of Kuwait. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>We could have made many prong attack on the second, third, fourth or fifth. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>You did not come to filter in. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>You did not land in Saudi Arabia until the 8th of August. <v John Callaway>All right.

<v Mohamed Al-Mashat>This is the further proof. All right. Now everybody's saying if Iraqi attack. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Now we are going to give them hell. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>My God. It makes me sometimes laugh. <v John Callaway>Let me move to the question. Let me move this question of guests and hostages. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>[?inaudible?] Whatsoever. <v John Callaway>Let me move to the question of guests and hostages. <v John Callaway>If I invite you into my home. <v Mohamed Al-Mashat>Mhm. <v John Callaway>But then I locked the doors and don't let you out. <v John Callaway>Are you a guest or a hostage? <v John Callaway>Yuri Barnier, I want to go back to my scenario, which has a withdrawal <v John Callaway>from Kuwait by Iraq. <v John Callaway>Time passes. Then there's a conference. <v John Callaway>There's a World Court deliberation. <v John Callaway>The complaints that led to his taking Kuwait, annexing Kuwait, <v John Callaway>are then addressed. Maybe he's given an oil field lease. <v John Callaway>Maybe he isn't. But that conversation goes on. <v John Callaway>Then there's another decent interval. <v John Callaway>Now world opinion comes and says Israel, we've <v John Callaway>got all kinds of stuff going on in the Soviet Union.

<v John Callaway>South Africa. Kuwait. <v John Callaway>It's your turn. Talk to your Palestinian friends. <v John Callaway>Get something on the table. Do something. <v John Callaway>Are you prepared to deal with this? <v Man>Of course. We have a peace plan on the table. <v Man>We have Mr. Shamir plan on the table endorsed by the United States, which calls <v Man>for four parts. Number one, direct negotiations between Israel <v Man>and all the Arab states for the peace. <v Man>Let them renounce the state of war. <v Man>They are against Israel until this very day, since 1948. <v Man>Well, if annihilation. Number two. <v John Callaway>I'm sorry. Let me interrupt. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Number one, you agree that there is <v John Callaway>that state of war which needs to be renounced? <v Ghada Talhami>Well, but press Chairman Arafat recognize Israel accepted Resolution 242. <v Ghada Talhami>What did Israel do? Did they respond? <v Man>Of course we will. The question of recognition was a <v Man>absolutely false as it was implemented, because when he had to decide <v Man>between supporting Abu Abbas and continue a dialog with the United States, <v Man>he supported Abul Abbas. Terrorism was not ready to -

<v John Callaway>You acknowledge, Ghada Talhami, you acknowledge that Israel then didn't think that that <v John Callaway>was a bona fide move? <v Ghada Talhami>Definitely Israel's preferred formula for a peace negotiation is the unilateral approach. <v Ghada Talhami>The Camp David formula that is dealing with one single Arab country at a time with <v Ghada Talhami>only United States as a mediator. The preferred Arab formula for peace is an <v Ghada Talhami>international peace conference under the auspices of the Security Council with the <v Ghada Talhami>participation of members of the Security Council. <v Ghada Talhami>This is where we punch. <v John Callaway>Israel is not a member of, right? <v Ghada Talhami>Well, no, but it doesn't have to be a member. <v John Callaway>No, I understand. I just want to get it on the record that Israel - Libya is on the <v John Callaway>Security Council. But Israel is not. <v Ghada Talhami>Libya is not a permanent member. <v Speaker>[overlapping chatter] [?inaudible?] <v John Callaway>I want to make it clear that I did not say Libya was a permanent. <v Ghada Talhami>There were other times in history when Israel might have been on the Security Council, <v Ghada Talhami>still, you never accepted this particular formula. <v Ghada Talhami>All right. That preferred formula is unilateral. <v John Callaway>I just I just want to establish to place their second point. <v Speaker>And the second point is in negotiations with the <v Speaker>Palestinians.

<v Speaker>For autonomy, and we proposed the first time ever to conduct free elections <v Speaker>in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, they negotiated autonomy and <v Speaker>take it from there. We'll have a final settlement. <v Speaker>The third point is to address the refugee problem right now, because this is the <v Speaker>harbinger of terrorism. <v Speaker>And the fourth point is that the Camp David Accords, which proved to be successful, <v Speaker>everything else is talk. The only successful negotiations were with Egypt and Israel, <v Speaker>negotiated directly with the good offices of the United States. <v Speaker>We will take the good offices of United States any time. <v Speaker>We will never take the bad offices of international conference because <v Speaker>and we just and Mrs. Talhami just mentioned it. <v Speaker>Look what will happen. Israel alone. <v Speaker>With all the Arab countries. <v Speaker>With the five big powers, some of them hostile, some of them poor Arab, <v Speaker>and America will have to be neutral and we are left alone. <v Speaker>Why can't how can we really resolve our very complex problems through an international - <v Speaker>one second please.

<v John Callaway>We've said - no you're through now. Our thanks to Uri Barnier, Ghada Talhami, and Marvin <v John Callaway>Stonas for being with us this evening. We invite you to join us tomorrow night at 7:00 <v John Callaway>when our Chicago tonight guests will be Gail Sheehy, who has just written a biography, <v John Callaway>Mikhail Gorbachev and Hedrick Smith, who has updated his original book, The Russians, <v John Callaway>with a book called The New Russians. They'll tell us how Gorbachev rose to power and <v John Callaway>discuss whether or not he can weather the current winter of discontent in the Soviet <v John Callaway>Union. I'm John Callaway. Thank you and good night. <v John Callaway>Did Mr. Arafat play a part in the hostage release? <v John Callaway>Yes. <v John Callaway>And when you say the community is not going to tolerate it, what is the community doing? <v Father Pfleger>Well, the community is working and on all sorts of angles. <v Father Pfleger>From legislation. We see Ed Burke and the city council is trying to <v Father Pfleger>develop an ordinance about uh banning all billboards in the city of Chicago. <v Father Pfleger>Monique Davis is in the state House Representatives. <v Father Pfleger>We're going for a zoning and the alderman to try to rezone so that billboards can be <v Father Pfleger>taken out of different all wards throughout the city and people are taking out brushes

<v Father Pfleger>and painting throughout the city. <v John Callaway>People are taking brushes and painting and they're painting. <v John Callaway>We saw [?inaudible?] speaks we saw the billboards <v John Callaway>painted over. People that are your supporters are doing that? <v Father Pfleger>Yes, people. People are. And not so much my supporters is people are -. <v John Callaway>This movement. <v Father Pfleger>Saying that that they're against this and that it talk about our war on the billboards. <v Father Pfleger>The billboards declared war on the community, that people are defending themselves. <v Father Pfleger>And are you a part of that? I mean, have you been doing some of that pain? <v Father Pfleger>I support the alcohol and tobacco billboards leaving this community by whatever means it <v Father Pfleger>takes. Have you been doing some of the painting? <v Father Pfleger>My attorney tells me til the court comes up not not to answer that question in a public <v Father Pfleger>forum. <v John Callaway>Now, that's interesting, because if you take a look at Martin Luther King's <v John Callaway>direct action, you see the Dr. Martin Luther King didn't say, well, my attorney <v John Callaway>not to comment, said not to comment. He just took the penalty, went to jail, did <v John Callaway>what was necessary in civil disobedience. <v John Callaway>And that high visibility was a very great part of his strategy. <v John Callaway>I mean, it was almost planned that he do that.

<v John Callaway>Why aren't you able just to say, John? <v John Callaway>Yeah, I painted it. If I go to jail, I go to jail and let's address the issue. <v John Callaway>Isn't that about? <v Father Pfleger>Unfortunately 1990, 1960 are big difference with the way we handle the court systems. <v Father Pfleger>And I have to take the advice of my attorney. <v Father Pfleger>I do. I do publicly say that I support communities doing whatever is necessary <v Father Pfleger>to get alcohol and tobacco billboards out. <v Father Pfleger>This is about life and death. We're in a country that supports property protection <v Father Pfleger>and we have to be at a company that turns that around to people and life. <v John Callaway>When you see the courts are different in 1990 - <v Father Pfleger>Very different. <v John Callaway>What do you mean by that? <v Father Pfleger>Because that court that the angles, the politics, the <v Father Pfleger>the ways decisions are made in courtrooms. <v Father Pfleger>Now, in 1990, a much different, much different system. <v Father Pfleger>It's a much different system we're battling. <v John Callaway>Are you saying It's worse. <v Father Pfleger>Oh, certainly worse. <v John Callaway>Worse than what King faced in the South? <v Father Pfleger>Ask people about the justice and the court system at 26 in California <v Father Pfleger>any day and go into any one of those courtrooms and ask the way courts are handled today. <v John Callaway>Is it your perception - <v Father Pfleger>We are litigating society.

<v John Callaway>Is it your perception that those billboards lead directly to the death <v John Callaway>of black and Hispanic youngsters? <v Father Pfleger>Well, alcohol is considered to be number the number one health problem <v Father Pfleger>in the African-American Hispanic communities. <v Father Pfleger>Tobacco is the number one killer. They have been proven statistically to be the entrance <v Father Pfleger>way into the illegal drugs in the schools and <v Father Pfleger>in our community. When a survey was taken as what is, those those symbols <v Father Pfleger>of adulthood. Today, the top three things were smoking, being legal <v Father Pfleger>to drink, and car. Those are the passageways. <v John Callaway>There's no question about the impact of alcohol and tobacco on health. <v John Callaway>I think that's been clearly established. Are you saying that there is direct evidence the <v John Callaway>children who walked by billboards have their behavior affected in such a way that <v John Callaway>they become addicted to these things? <v Father Pfleger>A sociologist did a survey for me about saying that if he put up one hundred and eighteen <v Father Pfleger>billboards of Hershey candy bars in <v Father Pfleger>our community, that the percentage within a three to four month data, <v Father Pfleger>there would be an average of up to possibly 30 percent increase.

<v Father Pfleger>Now, whether that would stay or remain, but it would be up to a 30 percent increase. <v Father Pfleger>Now, Hershey can candy bars can do that in a three to four month period what <v Father Pfleger>can alcohol or cigarettes that are addictive? <v John Callaway>Dr. Flager you deal with kids all the time. Are you seeing your kids in that neighborhood <v John Callaway>smoke and drink a lot? <v Father Pfleger>I'm saying that drinking and smoking is going to increase anywhere where people push you <v Father Pfleger>to do it. That's fact. That's right. I'm advertising. <v John Callaway>Let's assume for the let's assume for the sake of discussion. <v John Callaway>That's true. I am now asking you, are you seeing these particular communities doing a <v John Callaway>good bit of smoking and drinking? <v Father Pfleger>Yes I see a definite alcohol and tobacco problem. <v Father Pfleger>Yes, I do. In my neighborhood. <v John Callaway>What do you say to Mr. Morris, who runs his own advertising agency <v John Callaway>and has to face questions like that all the time in terms of <v John Callaway>accepting money from somebody that's doing alcohol and tobacco? <v John Callaway>What would you say to him? <v Father Pfleger>I say there has to be a social responsibility. <v Father Pfleger>People can simply - the outdoor advertising people have turned to me and said, we're just <v Father Pfleger>the messenger. And then they try to wash their hands and walk away. <v Father Pfleger>You can't wash hands. You have a responsibility to the community.

<v Father Pfleger>That must be taken to task. <v John Callaway>Morris what do you say? <v Eugene Morris>Well, I think that Father Pflegar is really making our medium much more powerful <v Eugene Morris>than it really is. Obviously, I can't say that advertising doesn't <v Eugene Morris>work. I think it does work. But I can say that simply because <v Eugene Morris>you put an image on a billboard, it doesn't mean that everybody is going to stop <v Eugene Morris>doing what they're doing and run out and start doing whatever you're suggesting on <v Eugene Morris>that billboard. <v John Callaway>Ok but what does that mean? <v Eugene Morris>It's not quite that simple. <v John Callaway>OK, but what does it mean? <v Eugene Morris>It means that when you put an image up there that there are a number of other <v Eugene Morris>things that happen also. I mean, it's not just that particular ad. <v Eugene Morris>I mean, there are promotions that are done. <v Eugene Morris>It takes frequencies over time that these things happen. <v John Callaway>Well, let's say the billboards are up there and that they are a part of an overall <v John Callaway>campaign. Are they then part and parcel of what Father Pfleger is suggesting <v John Callaway>is something that can really have an impact on kids, even though they may not be targeted <v John Callaway>at kids directly?

<v Eugene Morris>They can have an impact. But but our society, if you look at I like to watch <v Eugene Morris>old movies. If you watch old movies, I mean, they're full of people. <v Eugene Morris>Everyone in the movie smoked and drank. <v Eugene Morris>I mean, that was a part of society. <v John Callaway>Do you have clients that are alcohol or tobacco clients? <v Eugene Morris>Yes. <v John Callaway>And who are they? <v Eugene Morris>Brown-Forman Beverage Company, which makes a number of of alcoholic beverages. <v John Callaway>And do you have billboards in minority neighborhoods? <v Eugene Morris>Yes. <v John Callaway>With those products? <v Eugene Morris>My agency. The reason for our existence is that we develop campaigns <v Eugene Morris>designed to reach and sell black consumers. <v Eugene Morris>Now, alcohol and alcohol is not all we do. <v Eugene Morris>In fact, it's a very small part of what we do. <v John Callaway>But the point is that you do have billboards in minority neighborhoods. <v John Callaway>And would you agree that minority neighborhoods are good, targeted audiences for alcohol <v John Callaway>and tobacco? Was that a proven fact? <v Eugene Morris>Well, I think that that the whole nature of marketing and advertising is <v Eugene Morris>targeting. I mean, if there's no one I've never I've been doing this for over 20 <v Eugene Morris>years. And I've never been in a situation where a marketer said

<v Eugene Morris>that they wanted to reach everybody. I mean, it's it's targeting marketing is <v Eugene Morris>targeting by definition. <v John Callaway>And would you agree that schoolchildren walk by these billboards who may be <v John Callaway>influenced by them in the matrix of other things that you've discussed, whether it be <v John Callaway>movies or real life or whatever? <v Eugene Morris>Well, I think that that the influence that billboards create or any advertising <v Eugene Morris>creates is only one part of that. <v John Callaway>My question was, do you agree that school children walk by that and that they see that <v John Callaway>part of it? <v Eugene Morris>They see it, of course. And some of them probably look at that and they think, well, <v Eugene Morris>that's a neat looking person, or maybe I would like to be like him. <v Eugene Morris>But that does not mean that simply because they see it that they <v Eugene Morris>will then turn to drinking and smoking. <v John Callaway>But is it a part? <v John Callaway>Good evening and Labor Day greetings. I'm John Callaway and welcome to Chicago tonight. <v John Callaway>When programs like this one take working people themes for their Labor Day broadcasts we <v John Callaway>usually focus on the importance of labor unions and the development of fair working

<v John Callaway>conditions in this country and around the world. <v John Callaway>We will depart from that this evening to deal with some workers who happen to be nonunion <v John Callaway>for the most part, but who have been subjected to great unfairness and discrimination in <v John Callaway>the course of trying to do their jobs. <v John Callaway>Some of the people we'll be talking about tonight wear Vice President stripes or hold <v John Callaway>jobs with even higher rank. And yet they have stories to tell which are not entirely <v John Callaway>dissimilar from the kinds of stories of struggling union people have told in the past. <v John Callaway>We're talking about the black men and women who encountered corporate racism as they <v John Callaway>tried to rise to the top of American business. <v John Callaway>These are stories they told to Chicago real estate man and author Dempsey Travis <v John Callaway>in a new book entitled Racism American Style A Corporate Gift, <v John Callaway>a book which is number one in the Chicago Tribune, writing a bestselling nonfiction in <v John Callaway>the Chicago area. But this program is not a book interview, per say, because <v John Callaway>what Dempsey Travis has written about is front page news. <v John Callaway>The Chicago Sun-Times reported that seven of the 10 largest Fortune 500 companies <v John Callaway>in the Chicago area have a total of only 13 blacks working as vice presidents

<v John Callaway>or higher, out of more than six hundred twenty five executive positions. <v John Callaway>And all of the recent controversy over blacks being excluded from country clubs is not <v John Callaway>just a sports story. It is very much tied to a pattern of discrimination in the business <v John Callaway>world. We will hear much more about that from Dempsey Travis, right after this background <v John Callaway>report. From Chicago tonight, correspondent Chitra Ragavan. <v Robbie Smith>I'm calling to talk about this startup seminars that we're presenting next <v Robbie Smith>Thursday. <v Chitra Ragavan>Entrepreneur Robbie Smith says she knows about corporate racism because she worked <v Chitra Ragavan>in corporate America for more than 17 years. <v Chitra Ragavan>Smith joined Amoco Corp. in Chicago as a secretary when she was only 16. <v Chitra Ragavan>She went to night school at Roosevelt University and earned a degree in communications, <v Chitra Ragavan>and she worked her way up Amoco's corporate ladder until she became manager of urban <v Chitra Ragavan>affairs. <v Robbie Smith>Everything in corporate America is not all black. <v Robbie Smith>I benefited a lot. I told you I got my education, my my education.

<v Robbie Smith>I'm a college graduate today because of Amico. <v Robbie Smith>And I appreciate that. <v Robbie Smith>It was best training ground for me to learn the corporate system, <v Robbie Smith>the American system, because of that work at Amoco. <v Robbie Smith>I know how things work in this country. <v Robbie Smith>I think I know how to deal with what I call the white mind. <v Robbie Smith>And that was because of my exposure at Amoco. <v Chitra Ragavan>Four and a half years ago Robby Smith left Amoco because <v Chitra Ragavan>she says she knew she had gone as far as she could go in corporate America. <v Robbie Smith>You know that you will only rise so high, and that is you're going <v Robbie Smith>to get to a certain level and that will be it. <v Robbie Smith>You can get raises every year, make very good salaries, for example. <v Robbie Smith>I was making over fifty thousand dollars a year. <v Robbie Smith>I had a friend. I had an expense account. <v Robbie Smith>I traveled. I had a wonderful job as far as money and opportunities <v Robbie Smith>were concerned. But as far as fulfillment, long range, I didn't see <v Robbie Smith>it. And I felt that I had the the talents to do just a little bit more.

<v Chitra Ragavan>Smith says she knew it was time for her to leave. Her boss at Amico, who was the director <v Chitra Ragavan>of her department, retired. <v Robbie Smith>I was the second person in his department. <v Robbie Smith>Often he was not there. <v Robbie Smith>I had to manage the department, the budget and everything. <v Robbie Smith>However, when he retired, I was not even considered. <v Robbie Smith>First, they interviewed a couple of white women outside of the company. <v Robbie Smith>They then interviewed white men outside of the company. <v Robbie Smith>Later, I think, out of courtesy and I really believe this. <v Robbie Smith>They interviewed black and inside the company. <v Robbie Smith>I was never interviewed for the job, even though I managed the department. <v Robbie Smith>The writing was on the wall. I was not going to sit there and train <v Robbie Smith>a white man for a job that I had been doing a number of years. <v Chitra Ragavan>Since she left corporate life, Robbie Smith has managed her own public relations <v Chitra Ragavan>consulting firm, The Right Image Inc. <v Chitra Ragavan>Smith also develops and conducts educational entrepreneurs at the cosmopolitan

<v Chitra Ragavan>Chamber of Commerce on Chicago's South Side. <v Robbie Smith>It has been difficult. I won't say it has not been, but with all things <v Robbie Smith>being equal, with all possibilities for me, I would rather struggle <v Robbie Smith>as an entrepreneur than to go back into corporate America. <v Robbie Smith>I say that because I know that I'm going to be stuck at some point. <v Robbie Smith>I will never rise to the point of the average white person <v Robbie Smith>for Chicago tonight. <v Chitra Ragavan>I'm Chitra Ragavan. <v Dempsey Travis>In rappers to superstars. <v Dempsey Travis>I mean, I don't think we had a better superstar than a fellow named Jerry Williams <v Dempsey Travis>who we talk about who became president <v Dempsey Travis>of AOM International. <v Dempsey Travis>He was such a star that whenever they had a problem, Cockneys standing in <v Dempsey Travis>Berlin, sentiment, Hong Kong anywhere. <v Dempsey Travis>OK, he decided the chairman decided he was going to move on and he thought Jerry should <v Dempsey Travis>replace him as chief executive officer of Fortune 500 Company.

<v Dempsey Travis>There was one mistake made. The mistake was that Jerry permitted his picture to appear on <v Dempsey Travis>the front page of Fortune magazine. <v John Callaway>When he had never done it before. It's the first time he'd broken his own rule, right? <v Dempsey Travis>Write his own rule and all hell broke loose. <v Dempsey Travis>What happened is that White Boys Network CEO networks say, look, <v Dempsey Travis>we cannot break up this club. <v Dempsey Travis>Blacks don't fit. Within six months jerry was on his way out. <v Dempsey Travis>He never made CEO. <v John Callaway>Now, the other thing which Reverend Riddick, I want you to comment on, and that is those <v John Callaway>who would say, look, the real issue, that Operation Push, interestingly enough, has not <v John Callaway>addressed, is this whole issue of using Michael Jordan, Spike Lee and others <v John Callaway>to sell these high priced status shoes <v John Callaway>to black teenagers, among others, kids that are using them perhaps for the wrong reasons, <v John Callaway>who maybe can't even afford them, who are killing each other over them. <v John Callaway>And why don't you address yourself to that question they would ask? <v George Riddick>Well, first of all, we don't think the issue is Michael or Spike.

<v George Riddick>They are friends of ours. But even if they were not, you know, John Thompson or any of <v George Riddick>them, they are very adequate role models. <v George Riddick>And it is unfortunate that the circumstances of the way they are marketed <v George Riddick>and other circumstances in the total media have, <v George Riddick>in addition to, of course, agendas of others, gangs <v George Riddick>and others have led to the violence. <v George Riddick>But it has nothing to do with them. <v George Riddick>I might say. And our issue is not that we do <v George Riddick>not discount, as a matter of fact, we emphasize the need <v George Riddick>for entrepreneurship, but there are many strategies of reaching <v George Riddick>entrepreneurship, particularly when you're in a climate where banks are not readily <v George Riddick>listening to the matter of your securing additional loans or additional <v George Riddick>capitalization to get started. <v George Riddick>When the average age of a black entering business is thirty eight. <v George Riddick>And when you are beginning to try to expand this situation, you

<v George Riddick>need many strategies. And we're just simply saying one of the strategies that has <v George Riddick>been more successful has been one that is involved us in seeking <v George Riddick>relationships of reciprocal relationships with larger corporations. <v George Riddick>After all, we - <v John Callaway>But you're not you're not answering, well, you're answering, but it seems to me that <v John Callaway>you're saying that you do not wish to make an issue out of the Michael Jordan - <v George Riddick>No, no. <v John Callaway>For example, the Jordan that he's a friend of yours, etc. <v John Callaway>Anybody else at the table concerned about this? <v George Kalidonis>Let me ask a question. One of the largest concentrations of wealth in the black community <v George Kalidonis>is the athletes, along with entertainers and others. <v George Kalidonis>The history of of ethnic groups in this country is that they bank their own businesses in <v George Kalidonis>the beginning. None of those neighborhood businesses are ever bankable, just not in the <v George Kalidonis>nature of things. Why is it unreasonable to ask Michael Jordan and <v George Kalidonis>others to put a lot of money into a seed capital fund in order to support <v George Kalidonis>entrepreneurship in the neighborhoods? <v John Callaway>And have Nike match? <v Speaker>[Overlapping chatter] <v George Kalidonis> Have Nike match it, absolutely. <v George Kalidonis>That's the appropriate strategy.

<v Barbara Proctor>I think that placing an undue burden <v Barbara Proctor>on a Michael and a Spike that you would not place on a Larry Bird <v Barbara Proctor>or a Bill Friedkin is is simply expanding the <v Barbara Proctor>exploitation that has gone on. <v Barbara Proctor>I do not believe that it is Michael's responsibility alone. <v John Callaway>Unless Michael heard something like this and said yeah that interests me. <v Barbara Proctor>No I agree with that. And I don't want to minimize. <v Barbara Proctor>I think it's an excellent idea. But I think also with men in that capacity <v Barbara Proctor>and earning that money, are few and far between. <v Barbara Proctor>Around them are financial structures and legal structures - <v George Kalidonis>Absolutely agree there. <v Barbara Proctor>Athletes who are not black and who do not always guide them to <v Barbara Proctor>reinvest in their own communities. I think that is important. <v George Riddick>I'm sorry, but one of the things overlooked. I think Barbara's absolutely right. <v George Riddick>But one of the things is overlooked is that a number of black athletes have <v George Riddick>invested in substantial sized firms that <v George Riddick>hire people, etc., and have shown a lot of sensitivity.

<v George Riddick>Can you name a couple? Well, Julius Erving, for example, Magic <v George Riddick>Johnson has recently entered a joint venture with Earl Graves. <v George Riddick>And there but as Mrs. Proctor has suggested, there <v George Riddick>are few in number and then they need and ought to have the options <v George Riddick>that they want to utilize their funds. <v George Riddick>The question for us is how we get a reciprocal relationship. <v Mark Hornung>100 percent agreement. And the issue is reciprocity. <v Mark Hornung>And the fact of the matter is what makes a burden of Michael <v Mark Hornung>Jordan's different from Larry PERTS. No one suggesting Larry Bird has to invest or <v Mark Hornung>Michael Jordan has to invest anything. <v Mark Hornung>What people are suggesting is that it is a shared responsibility. <v Mark Hornung>And when you use the terms target without picking up the phone and calling the chief <v Mark Hornung>operating officer or legal counsel before you engage in this strategy, you create <v Mark Hornung>a climate in which you can't negotiate in a climate of trust. <v Speaker>I have to negotiate out of this program. Thanks to remember George Riddick, Barbara <v Speaker>Proctor, George Caledonius and Mark Horning for being with us.