Hollywood Television Theater; The Andersonville Trial; Part 2

<v Announcer>The Hollywood television theater continues with The Andersonville Trial. <v General Wallace>At ease. Thismilitary court is now in session. What is the pleasure of the judge advocate? <v NP Chipman>If the court, please, on the specification that the defendant committed murder by his own hand, we've got to the stand, Sergeant James W. Gray. <v Mr. Otis Baker>If the court please, we do not see that name listed here. <v NP Chipman>Sergeant Gray's name is not listed because we're not certain that his release from duty to be arranged in time down from his headquarters in Annapolis. <v General Wallace>Witness may be sworn in. <v Court speaker>You solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to the court should be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God? <v Sergeant Gray>Yes, sir. <v NP Chipman>Sergeant Gray, what is your regiment? <v Sergeant Gray>7th Illinois Cavalry Company B sir.

<v NP Chipman>How long have you been in the service? <v Sergeant Gray>My last term. Two years. One month. <v NP Chipman>How long were you in Andersonville prison? <v Sergeant Gray>I was taken down as a ?inaudible? 10th of June 1865. Remained there until November. <v NP Chipman>You know anything think about the defendant Wirtz having killed a man there at any time? <v Sergeant Gray>He shot a young fellow named William Stewart. Private. ?inaudible? the ninth Minnesota infantry. <v NP Chipman>State the circumstances. <v Sergeant Gray>Stewart and I went outside the stockade with a dead body. <v NP Chipman>Explain how you could get out? <v Sergeant Gray>The regulations were that whenever a man died, prisoners could be detailed to take the dead body out past the gate to the dead house. I begged for a chance to move that dead body. And I was picked along with Stewart to take it out. We went up to the main gate with the body and they passed us through with a guard. It was my determination. I don't know whether it is Stewart's or not, but it was my determination to try to make an escape again. We went to the dead house not to put the body into that house, because in that house they will pile like cordwood full to the top in a line of dead bodies extended from it for about 50 yards. Wirtz rode up and dismounted, asked what we were doing out there, Stewart replied. We brought out a dead body to be placed into that house. Wirtz said it was a lie. We were out there trying to make our escape, Stewart says it was not so. We were not there for the purpose stated. Wirtz says if you say that again, I'll blow your brains out. Stewart repeated what he said before. Wirtz struck them down, stopped them, draws a revolver, shot him dead. <v NP Chipman>Sergeant, is that the man?

<v Sergeant Gray>Yes sir. <v Henry Wirtz>Look close, Sergeant, make sure I give you the chance to take back that lie before the Greek God judges you. <v Sergeant Gray>You knocked him down, you shot him dead. <v Mr. Otis Baker>We would like a moment to confer with the defender. We have no further questions. ?inaudible? <v Henry Wirtz>It is no use! I don't know. <v Mr. Otis Baker>?inaudible? You're sure? <v Henry Wirtz>Yes, I'm sure. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Sergeant, would you describe once again the so-called ?inaudible? death. <v Sergeant Gray>Wirtz rolled up asked us by what authority were out there? Stewart replied, we were out there by proper authority. <v Mr. Otis Baker>So Captain Wirtz knocked him down and then shot him simply because he said he was out there by proper authority? <v Sergeant Gray>Whether he shot Stewart because he said that because he was a Yankee, I don't know. I don't know why he shot Stuart, but that's all Stewart said to him. <v Mr. Otis Baker>There was some guard about at the time when the so-called murder occurred, were there not?

<v Sergeant Gray>I recall some. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Did you speak to them after Stewart was killed? <v Sergeant Gray>I never spoke to ?inaudible? If I didn't have to. <v Mr. Otis Baker>How well did you know Stewart? <v Sergeant Gray>We were on the same prisoner squad. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And under what circumstance did he oblige you with his name and his regiment? <v Sergeant Gray>I don't recall exactly. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Well then describe this William Stewart, <v Sergeant Gray>All looked alike there, thinned down not to be recognized by their own mother. <v Mr. Otis Baker>So you can't describe him. Yet you talk with them, you know, his name and his regiment. But you can't describe him? What he did to hide his face when he talked with you? Oh, I know. Thinned down enough to be recognized even by their own mothers. Well then can you refer to some third person who might be able to identify this William Stewart? <v Sergeant Gray>No. <v Mr. Otis Baker>No. What does that answer mean, no? There were 90 men in that prison squad with you and Stewart and other men. At least one must have known he was with a 9th Minnesota, and could identify him. <v Sergeant Gray>He just happened to mention his name and regiment to me.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>However, fortunately for the prosecution, which until now has lacked a clear criminal instance, it has dredged you up as a single witness to a murder, a man having at least a name. Sergeant, do you believe in the afterlife? And you believe that a man sins including the sin of lying, will be punished? <v Sergeant Gray>I believe there is such a thing as punishment after death. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Have you ever been arrested for a criminal offense? <v Sergeant Gray>No, sir. <v Mr. Otis Baker>I take it you like the Army sergeant considering you have reenlisted. <v Sergeant Gray>I would say that. <v Mr. Otis Baker>After all the Army feeds you makes you comfortable. And judging from your sergeant stripes, you are considered by your military superiors to be a good soldier, one who knows what he is supposed to do without it being explained to him. <v Sergeant Gray>In so many words, a man gets to know what's expected of him. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And if you felt even if you weren't told what was expected of you, you'd carry that out? <v Sergeant Gray>Certain.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>And if you felt even if you weren't told what the Army's real concern was and in some situation and if you understood that to mean that you were supposed to lie, you would lie? <v General Wallace>I dare if you finish your question along that line you'll be in contempt. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Withdrawn, sergeant, what did you do before entering the Army? <v Sergeant Gray>I farmed some, ran dogs. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Ran dogs? <v Sergeant Gray>Hunting. <v Mr. Otis Baker>So where'd you do that work? <v Sergeant Gray>Illinois, Indiana, Virginia. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Virginia, Virginia. What purpose did you run your dog pack in Virginia? Was it by any chance to bring back runaway slaves? <v Sergeant Gray>Yes. <v Mr. Otis Baker>I take it was more profitable to track down runaway slaves in Virginia, than it was to go hunting deer in Indiana. <v Sergeant Gray>Well, being a Negro was valuable property that had to be brought back alive. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Tell me, Sergeant, did that valuable property ever as make human sounds, when you caught it? Did they beg you to let them go find freedom?

<v Sergeant Gray>I don't remember. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Human feelings must be put aside sometimes, mustn't they? And the truth must be put aside sometimes, too, And when you say you saw Captain Wirtz shoot a man named Stewart at Andersonville you were lying, weren't you? <v Sergeant Gray>I saw that happen, as I have described it. <v Mr. Otis Baker>That'll be all. <v NP Chipman>Were you lying when you said you saw Wirtz kill a man named Stewart? <v Sergeant Gray>I saw that happen, as I have described it. <v NP Chipman>Did you see Wirtz kill a man named Stewart or did you hear something about it? <v Sergeant Gray>I saw that happen, as I have described it, Sir. <v NP Chipman>That'll be all.

<v General Wallace>Has the judge advocate finally concluded this case? And is the defense ready? <v Mr. Otis Baker>Yes, sir. This defence regards the instance of murder alleged against the defendant as the single charge worth refuting? <v General Wallace>Baker. The court is not interested in your judgment of the charges. <v Mr. Otis Baker>We shall waive the entire list of witnesses and in their place, call to the stand one witness. <v General Wallace>One witness? <v Mr. Otis Baker>Questioning will only take a few minutes and it will constitute the entire defense case. <v General Wallace>Yes, well, who is the witness? <v Mr. Otis Baker>He's in the room. Dr. Ford is in charge of the old Capitol jail where the defendant has been lodged since the trial began. <v General Wallace>And let Dr. Ford take the stand. <v Court speaker>You solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to this court on the issue now, depending between the republic and the prisoner at the bar, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you God?

<v Dr. Ford>I do. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Dr. Ford, you have some time past now been in the habit of seeing the defendant. <v Dr. Ford>Yes. Since June, I believe ever since his imprisonment. He's been under my care when sick. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And have you during that time examine the defendant's right arm and have you examined him today? <v Dr. Ford>Yes. <v Mr. Otis Baker>What do you find a condition to be of his right arm? <v Dr. Ford>Swollen and inflamed, ulcerated in three places, has the appearance of being broken. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And the fingers of his right hand? <v Dr. Ford>Two fingers, the little finger on the next slide, the contract. The contraction is due to injury, the nerve leading down to the fingers. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And have you examined the defendant's left shoulder, sir? <v Dr. Ford>A portion of it is dead is a very large scar on the left shoulder. The portion of the deltoid muscle was entirely gone. I suppose ?inaudible? has Just been carried away. Only the front part of the muscle remained. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Doctor, how would that affect the strength in that arm?

<v Dr. Ford>Well, we might be able to strike out with the forearm from the elbow, but it could not elevate the whole arm. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Now as to his right arm, would he be capable of pushing or knocking a man down? <v Dr. Ford>No, I'd think him incapable of doing so with either arm without giving himself great injury. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Would he be capable of using with any force a heavy or light instrument? Would he be capable of pulling the trigger, let alone suffering the recall of a heavy revolver? <v Dr. Ford>No, not likely. <v Mr. Otis Baker>As to his condition a year ago in 1864? <v Dr. Ford>I've spoken with a doctor Bates who was at Andersonvillen to examine Mr. Wirtz at the defendant's request. And he agrees with my opinion that this condition was no better in 1864 than it is today. <v Mr. Otis Baker>So that he could not have knocked down the so called William Steward. <v Dr. Ford>I don't see how. <v Mr. Otis Baker>He could not have pulled the trigger. <v Dr. Ford>Well, as I've said. <v Mr. Otis Baker>He could not have killed him. The defense rests. Thank you. <v General Wallace>Colonel, colonel Chipman? Will the judge advocate cross examine? <v NP Chipman>Dr. Ford. Ford testified Mr. Wirtz's medical condition, as he sees it, and we're not here to dispute medical condition ?inaudible? But thank you, Doctor.

<v Henry Wirtz>What it is. Is it all finished? But I have not had the chance. <v General Wallace>We will convene the day after tomorrow to hear government and defense from ?inaudible? <v NP Chipman>Please sir we'd like to ask for a continuance. <v General Wallace>If the judge advocate would bring forward new evidence. <v NP Chipman>It's possible we'd like to ask for a continuance until tomorrow morning. It's possible that there's something more pertinent to this trial. <v General Wallace>Well, perhaps the defense would welcome new evidence. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Absolutely. Particularly on the charge of violent murder attributed to a man who can't even raise his arm. <v General Wallace>Unless the government contemplates other witnesses. We must consider that the presentation of evidence is complete. <v NP Chipman>If you please, the court, we do not feel that the situation in Andersonville has been sufficiently explore. That is why we asked for a continuance, if there is more to be said, more to be discovered about what took place there. <v Henry Wirtz>I agree. Yes, I agree with the judge advocate.

<v NP Chipman>Does the defendant wish to take the stand on his own behalf? <v Henry Wirtz>Well. <v Mr. Otis Baker>No. The defendant will not take the stand. <v NP Chipman>He is not bound to do so, but he may wish to make his position clear more. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Now, [inaudible, arguing erupts]. <v Henry Wirtz>That I might make my position clear. <v General Wallace>You cannot speak Wirtz unless you take the stand. The judge advocate is asking if you want to take the stand. You have a right to do so, but you can't be compelled to do so. You have that right. Though we suggest you listen to counsel. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Come on ?inaudible?. I don't understand what's come over you. <v Henry Wirtz>This legal game has been played back and forth and I am to die without a word to say for myself. I must explain. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Now listen. The evidence against you. I got it from start to finish and they know that let them bring in their verdict of guilty. But then it must go to the president who may pardon as he values the reputation of the government. And that is your single chance. <v Henry Wirtz>And I say, no chance. No chance.

<v Unidentified speaker>Wirtz. Listen to Baker. You will not take that stand. <v Henry Wirtz>I was a man like other men. I wish to show that. <v Mr. Otis Baker>?inaudible? alone and you will be alone. <v Unidentified speaker>You understand that alone? <v Henry Wirtz>Yes, alone. As I have been alone. Neither you nor anyone here has been concerned with me as a man and I might wish to speak since the judge advocate wishes me to take the stand. <v General Wallace>Mr. Wirtz. The judge advocate cannot influence you to do that. He's not your counsel. <v Henry Wirtz>Of course he is not. He is my worst enemy. I know, but he wishes to destroy m. eTake the stand on my own behalf. <v NP Chipman>On your own behalf. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Are you dispensing with counsel, Captain? <v NP Chipman>You might take the stand and speak for yourself, Mr. Words, but afterwards I warn you, I will try to send you out to the ?inaudible? <v Henry Wirtz>So you think you're going to do that?

<v NP Chipman>I can try. <v General Wallace>Will the defendant state whether or not he wishes to take the stand? <v Henry Wirtz>?inaudible? And what does he say? You will search me to the bottom of my soul. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain Wirtz, Captain Wirtz. Do you think the Chipman is here? To save you? <v Henry Wirtz>I am to die. I must take the stand. I have been made a monster, ?inaudible? if I do not speak out and I will not go that way. I would give them my words so that they can say their father was a man like you once. Then you will examine. But then will fight. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And if you take that stand, how do I stop you from saying more than you should. <v Henry Wirtz>Can't you understand Baker? I must fight. ?inaudible? fighting. <v Mr. Otis Baker>The defendant will take the stand on his own behalf. <v General Wallace>Mr. Baker, he understands that he is not required to do so.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>He understands he wishes to do so. <v General Wallace>Very well Mr. Wirtz you may take the stand. <v Court speaker>You solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give to the court in the issue now, depending between the republic and the prisoner at the bar, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you God. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain Wirtz, you are a naturalized citizen of the United States, is that correct? <v Henry Wirtz>Yes, sir. <v Mr. Otis Baker>When and where were you born? <v Henry Wirtz>I was born in Zurich, Switzerland, in 1822. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And then what year did you arrive in the United States? <v Henry Wirtz>In 1849. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Will you state briefly your activities prior to the outbreak of the war. <v Henry Wirtz>So I worked in the mills in Lawrence, Massachusetts, and not doing well. I moved with my family to various parts of the United States of ?inaudible?, Louisiana, and lived in Louisville, Kentucky, when the war broke out. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Do now state your war record prior to your assignment as superintendent of the prison camp.

<v Henry Wirtz>So I enlisted in the service of the Confederacy as a pilot and was soon commissioned as a lieutenant, having had previous military training abroad. After being wounded at the Battle of seven times, I was offered that assignment superintendent. <v Mr. Otis Baker>So what period of time did you serve in that assignment? <v Henry Wirtz>From January 1864 until February of this year. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain Wirtz during that time, were you given any special or secret instructions about how to run that camp? I refer specifically set the instructions of the care ?inaudible? <v Henry Wirtz>No sir. No special instructions beyond the prescribed regulations for the care of prisoners of war. And any statement to the contrary-. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain Wirtz. Were the food supplies at first furnish you sufficient for those prisoners? <v Henry Wirtz>And so at first I receive ample supplies to furnish for each and every enemy prisoner ration, which was the same issue to Confederate soldiers as is the custom. It included bacon, fresh baked bread daily if not bacon, a lot beef, and those men did not starve. But later it became-.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain. Would you now state the circumstances under which that situation changed? <v Henry Wirtz>As it began to change for the worse around March, when we began to receive prisoners by the thousands but not sufficiently, an increase in ration. So naturally I had to more and more cut down the ration. And I wrote General Winder about that. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Yes, when when did you write the General Winder? <v Henry Wirtz>Sometime in May 1864. <v Mr. Otis Baker>I have here a letter written by Captain Wirtz to General Winder made twenty six eighteen sixty four. <v Court speaker>Presented to the court ?inaudible? For the defense letter of May twenty six. Eighteen sixty four. And it is evidence for the defense. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain, would you now tell us about that letter?

<v Henry Wirtz>I wrote General Winder complaining about the lack of food and requested additional supplies. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain, did General wish to reply to that letter? <v Henry Wirtz>He did so on one of his visits to the camp. He said we were taking care of the business just as well as the enemy took care of our men in their hands. He said that our men were not well treated, especially at the camp in Elmira, New York, where they were dropping like flies. It was an ?inaudible?, he made it clear, that closed the subject. And as an inferior officer, I felt I could not pursue the matter further. But I did what it was in my power to do that. As about the drummer boy. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Yes, Captain. We will get to that in a moment. Did you now tell the court the origin of the deadline? <v Henry Wirtz>As to the deadline? In the conversation, I said to general Winder that the prisoners were getting desperate because of the lack of food and the guards, consequently nervous, ?inaudible? On the walls, and that was bound to be trouble. I saw more guards who quiet the prisoners down with the ?inaudible?, but he said that the men could not be spared. Still, it was my responsibility. They should not escape. ?inaudible?. So I suggested that in a line and general Winder approve that line. But that does not mean that I did not consider those men, as I started to say before about the drummer boys. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Very well. Very well. Tell the court about those two employees.

<v Henry Wirtz>So there were 60 or 70 boys and some of those little boys and that those boys should suffer, having children of my own. So I asked them if they would take an oath not to try to escape. And they did. And they were allowed on patrol outside the gate and they live outside the camp. I assigned them to pick blackberries to furnish additional food for the camp, but that didn't work out. Between boys they ate what they picked them up and that was not all that I did. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain, what you now do not tell us about Father Weland. <v Henry Wirtz>But yes, I loved all religious people of any denomination. But at the camp, Father Weland of the Roman Catholic Church came there several times bringing fresh bread. He was allowed to do that. And he distributed to all the prisoners black and white. All of these people of any denomination were permitted to enter that camp and bring comfort to the prisoners. I believe that religion ?inaudible? <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain. Now, tell us about the women who try to bring food.

<v Henry Wirtz>At first General Winder graciously consented to like that to be brought in. But when the women were about to do that, he received some bad news, some reports that Sherman was burning farmhouses and crops in the Central Valley and they he into a rage. And he said that the food could not be brought in amd as aninferiort I could hardly override his orders. ?inaudible? In general, that place was entirely owned by head. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And did you try to get relief? <v Henry Wirtz>I have not finished. As I was in the ?inaudible?, the place was entirely on my head that I had the responsibility to keep order and to keep those men from escaping ?inaudible? And it was difficult to keep order since the men kept trying not to have the time to ?inaudible? And I had my duty, which was to protect them. <v Mr. Otis Baker>But you did try to get relieved at that assignment, did you not, Captain?

<v Henry Wirtz>Yes, I wrote to a general Winder asking to be assigned to another post, but he informed me that I could not leave, that simply I had I had to stay. I simply ?inaudible? That it kept being on my head. I have a letter written by the defendant to General Winder, dated May 19th, 1860, for which request to be relieved of his assignment <v Court speaker>A letter that was sent May 19th, 1864. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Captain Wirtz, did you strike down or kill a man called William Steward. <v Henry Wirtz>There was no William Steward and that is a lie! <v General Wallace>?inaudible? <v Mr. Otis Baker>Did you at any time shoot down or kill a prisoner of war? <v Henry Wirtz>No because I never thought that I could not physically do that.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>And when you were arrested at the conclusion of those hostilities, were you making an attempt to escape? <v Henry Wirtz>Oh, I have no reason to do that. I was standing outside the stockade with my family and having heard of the general pardon, I was on my way back to Louisville when a major general and his forces entered to tell me that I was under arrest. I was taken away and prisoner and I soon understood the awful charge against me and that my fate was to have. <v Mr. Otis Baker>That will be all. Thank you. <v Henry Wirtz>Am I not to be asked my conception of my duty? <v Mr. Otis Baker>That will be all. <v Henry Wirtz>I wish to explain I understand the military. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Very well. Explain your understanding of the military code. <v Henry Wirtz>When one does as he was ordered that he keeps his feelings to himself, that he does not play the hero game, that some people are not in his position, think he could play. You obey, but he does not concern himself with the policies of his superiors, but obeys and he does his assigned job and obeys that. The other two charges, given your base when ordered to keep prisoners, he obeys. And if in so doing, he must die and he dies.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>Your witness. <v NP Chipman>Mr. Wirtz, you've explained your sense of duty very clearly in an officer's order to keep prisoners, you obey. <v Henry Wirtz>Yes, sir. <v NP Chipman>Meaning he must keep them from escaping. <v Henry Wirtz>That is one of the things. <v NP Chipman>Meaning he must keep them alive. <v Henry Wirtz>Insofar as it is, it is in his power.

<v NP Chipman>Which did you consider more important, keeping them alive or keeping them from escaping <v Henry Wirtz>According to the customs of war, to keep them alive as it was within my power, and to prevent them from escaping. <v NP Chipman>One duty more nor less important in your mind? <v Henry Wirtz>Both equally. <v NP Chipman>You say you've never at any time kill the prisoner of war <v Henry Wirtz>It has been demonstrated that I could not. <v NP Chipman>I asked you so directly, did you or did you not <v Henry Wirtz>I did not. <v NP Chipman>In your letter of May twenty six, eighteen sixty four in which you tell General Winder of your increasing duties at Andersonville? I know you also asked me to consider you for a promotion in rank from captain to major. What were you concerned with when you wrote that letter? The promotion or the overcrowding? <v Henry Wirtz>There is nothing wrong in the same letter to request that promotion <v NP Chipman>And in your letter requesting the transfer, you make a point of your illness as the reason. <v Henry Wirtz>Is to make it in that act. Otherwise, General Winder might not have liked the transfer request.

<v NP Chipman>All the same, you do request medical attention. Do you not? <v Henry Wirtz>I had in mind at the same time to get away from that assignment. <v NP Chipman>You say what happened at Andersonville was beyond your power to over. <v Henry Wirtz>Yes, sir. <v NP Chipman>In the course of performing your duties, you would make an inspection of the stockade from time to time, I imagine, from the walls where the guards stood, you could look down into that. How would you describe it sir? <v Henry Wirtz>It has been described <v NP Chipman>A sort of hell? <v Henry Wirtz>.?inaudible? Indescribable. I hope you will remember kind of hearing me say that I could not bear the sight of those young boy prisoners in there, and 60 or 70. I sent them out to pick black blackberries. <v NP Chipman>Yeah, that's in your favor.

<v Henry Wirtz>Thank you. <v NP Chipman>So it's interesting to note that you keep referring to that act as though there's so much else you do not remember. <v Henry Wirtz>You twist things. And I let Father Weland bring bread. <v NP Chipman>You would go to your duties every morning from your home. And you were concerned with raising your children in the normal fashion. Teaching them a common virtue, did you not? <v Henry Wirtz>Particularly in ?inaudible? Where. <v NP Chipman>You saw nothing strange and leaving your family and your grace at meals go into your job overseeing the dying of men? <v Mr. Otis Baker>Objection. <v NP Chipman>Withdrawn. You've said that keeping those men alive was of equal importance in your mind with keeping them from escaping? <v Henry Wirtz>Yes.

<v NP Chipman>The food was wormy and rotten. Did you think of sending foragers out to commandeer supplies from the Georgia farm? <v Henry Wirtz>It would have been illegal to do so. ?inaudible? <v NP Chipman>?inaudible law by the Confederacy? <v Henry Wirtz>Not often. <v NP Chipman>Sent out squads of prisoners to collect firewood? <v Henry Wirtz>Would have escaped. <v NP Chipman>Under guards. <v Henry Wirtz>There were not enough guards. <v NP Chipman>Enlarge the stockade. <v Henry Wirtz>The size was prescribed. <v NP Chipman>Let those prisoners, among whom were carpenters, masons, mechanics of all types, build shelters that would have kept those men alive. <v Henry Wirtz>As I have said, not authorized <v NP Chipman>Those measures would have saved lives. <v Henry Wirtz>I do not know what to say. <v NP Chipman>It would save just one. Would you say that one single human life is precious, Mr Wirtz? <v Henry Wirtz>I do not follow. It would have been illegal for me to do the things you say. <v NP Chipman>But Morally, right. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Objection. <v General Wallace>Yes, the court must agree. The judge advocates question does not connect with the charge of conspiracy.

<v NP Chipman>If the court please, I may explore that issue one step further before deciding the connection cannot be made. <v General Wallace>You may explore, colonel, one step further. <v NP Chipman>You are a religious man, Mr. Wirtz? <v Henry Wirtz>As I have said, no, whatever religion there is, I allowed all ministers of any denomination. <v NP Chipman>Seeing religion as you do. Will you agree that the ?inaudible? Of conscience, moral considerations are primary to all men? <v Henry Wirtz>Of course I do. I observe that ideal like most men when I can. <v NP Chipman>When you could not observe moral considerations at Andersonville? <v Henry Wirtz>That situation was general Winder's responsibility, not mine. <v NP Chipman>This was General Winder's responsibility because he was your military superior? <v Henry Wirtz>Yes. <v NP Chipman>How far over you did you deem his authority to extend?

<v Henry Wirtz>To all circumstances, considering that was a military war situation in all circumstances. <v NP Chipman>You're certain of that? <v Henry Wirtz>I am absolutely certain. <v NP Chipman>And had General Winder, in this military war situation, given a direct order to swat out one of your own children without an explanation, would you've done it? <v Henry Wirtz>It is ridiculous! <v NP Chipman>Would you've done it? <v Henry Wirtz>It is ridiculous. <v NP Chipman>Would you've done it? <v Henry Wirtz>No! <v NP Chipman>Why not? <v Henry Wirtz>It would have been insane. <v NP Chipman>Yes! Insane or inhuman or immoral. Then a man does indeed, therefore in his heart, make some inner judgment as to the orders he obeyed. <v General Wallace>The judge advocate will hold what is stated more than once it is not disposed to consider the moral issue relating to soldier conduct. It has indicated to the judge advocate that we are on extremely delicate ground at any time that we enter into the circumstances under which officers may disobey their military superiors. However, the judge advocate apparently now feels he must enter that area, that he will furnish some legal basis to this court or he will withdraw this line of questioning. <v NP Chipman>If the court please, I will -.

<v General Wallace>The judge advocate must furnish a legal basis. <v NP Chipman>The judge advocate respectfully. <v General Wallace>This court will hear a basis for permitting this line of inquiry. <v NP Chipman>If the court, please. Military courts judging war crimes are governed by both the criminal code and a rather more general code of universal international law. In most cases that come before them, they will judge the specific acts in which the nature and the degree of offense is determinable without great difficulty. On rare occasions, cases occur demanding from the court more almost search and quiet. And should the court allow that broader inquiry, it becomes more than just a poor record on a particular case. It becomes a supreme tribunal willing to peer into the very heart of human conduct. The judge advocate respectfully urges that the court does not in advance limit of narrowly defined the basis of questioning. Should the court insist on such a basis. We are through with the witness. <v General Wallace>Well, does the judge advocate offer this court alternative?

<v NP Chipman>Also, we did not mean to imply <v General Wallace>Well, you know, we are very flattered that we may take on the mantle of supreme tribunal. However, it is still a military court. <v General Wallace>If the court please. <v NP Chipman>No, Colonel, I'm not through. Now the court grants that that it may be philosophically true that men have the human right to judge the commands of the military superiors. But, Colonel, in practice, one does so at his peril <v General Wallace>At his ?inaudible? <v General Wallace>And we would warn that the peril of that line of questioning, that it be clearly understood most now we have a question for the judge advocate, which he may or may not answer, since he, of course, is not on trial here. The question is, what is it an honest man fights for when he takes up arms for his country? Is it the state or the moral principal inherent in that state? And if the state and the principal are not one, is he bound not to fight for that state and indeed to fight against it? Now, the judge advocate needs an answer. We'll make the question more particular. If at the outbreak of the war, the government of the so-called Confederacy had stood on the moral principle of freedom for the Black man and the government of the United States had stood for slavery, would a man have been bound on moral grounds to follow the dictates of conscience, even even if it had led him up to the point of taking up arms against the government of the United States? <v NP Chipman>Sir you can't see.

<v General Wallace>That is not the question. <v NP Chipman>Well in such a situation-. <v General Wallace>And that is not the question. <v NP Chipman>He would be bound to follow the dictates of his own conscience, <v General Wallace>Even to the point of taking up arms against the government of the United States? <v NP Chipman>Yes sir. <v General Wallace>The colonel understands, of course, that a man must be prepared to pay the penalties involved for violating the well, let us say, the code or the group to which he belongs. Now, in other societies, that has meant that in our society it can merely mean depravation of status, contempt of his fellow exile in the midst of his countrymen. Well, I take it the colonel understands. <v NP Chipman>He understands what the court said. <v General Wallace>And you still think? You still feel ?inaudible?

<v NP Chipman>I do not enter on my own free will. I had to because I'm forced to it. By the very nature of this case, we have lately emerged from a terrible and bloody war. And this war has spawned a very curious and sinister crime man in the thousands. Fourteen thousand men have been sent to their death not by bullets on the battlefield, but in a subtle hidden furtive fashion. We have through the course of this trial, examine, as it were, of the outward appearances of hell, the walls, the stockade, the swamps, the dogs, the terrible heat, the freezing cold. And and we have not gotten to the heart of it. They're not faced with the necessity, exploring further into better say it again, hell, I put it to the court that we owe to those fourteen thousand men who died, to those who mourn them, something so true as to put his head and shoulders above politics, above sectionalism, above the bitterness in our own heart. I admit to entering this room with that bitterness and myself, I admit to that mood of vengeance. I wish. I wish. Now to go beyond that. If I can. As we say, life is precious and. As we cling to our humanity by our fingernails in this world, by our fingernails. Let us have a human victory in this room. <v General Wallace>?inaudible? is not our move. They judge advocate feels considers appeals his primary to the presentation of his case, the moral issue of disobedience to a superior officer.

<v NP Chipman>Yes, sir. <v General Wallace>You may continue. Judge advocate may continue. <v Mr. Otis Baker>The judge advocate may continue? <v General Wallace>Yes. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Defense counsel is amazed this court does not now recognize the fact that there is no legal case here. To try to connect normal obedience to orders with willful conspiracy is impossible. And no fine sounding statements of universal law or supreme tribunal can break the unbreakable. And the court knows that the judge advocate cannot possibly make that connection. Yet the court allows the judge advocate to proceed when it should forthwith dismiss the defendant. <v General Wallace>By you Mr. Baker to order in the court to do that.

<v Mr. Otis Baker>But he admits there is no legal case here. <v General Wallace>The judge advocate may continue. And this court will decide what it will conclude that question when nothing more can be gained by it, is that clear? <v NP Chipman>Mr. Wirtz. The words we have said what a man does make and then a judgment as to the orders your base, which implies that if those orders offend his humanity deeply enough, you may disobey. General Winders authority over you was not absolute. The question is, why did you obey? <v Henry Wirtz>?inaudible? I did not think of my assignment at Andersonville in that way. I don't understand what happened here. I thought only a normal way to blame since he was my military superior,.

<v NP Chipman>Not your moral superiors. No man has authority over the soul of another. As we are men, we owe our own souls. And as we all know, we are equal as men. So the generals, the private, the captain, the ?inaudible? carrier. We're equal as men and every man alive. Being a man knows you in your heart knew that. And this situation had become an immoral, grossly immoral situation. And as General Winder was not your moral superior. You did not have to obey him. The question therefore remains why did you think, Mr. Wirtz, ?inaudible? <v Henry Wirtz>I would say clearly, I would most certainly have been court martialed. And if my superiors was considering that was a time of war and that what had come to a desperate, bitter stage in which the word traitor could be sounded in a moment I might have been executed,

<v NP Chipman>But it might at least have been for a reason. You might have saved fourteen thousand. Were you afraid? <v Henry Wirtz>I am a solider. <v NP Chipman>The question still is, why did you obey? <v Henry Wirtz>As I have said, that ?inaudible? demand what I've should have done at Andersonville. I an ordinary man, like most men, <v NP Chipman>Mr. Wirtz, we were born into the human race or elected to an extraordinary role in the scheme of things, but endowed with reason, Mr. Wirtz, and therefore personally responsible for our acts. A man may give to officials over many things, but not his soul, not what we call his immortal soul. And therefore, the question still is why did you obey? <v Henry Wirtz>Why? As I have said, as I say for the last time, that was to me a military situation. <v NP Chipman>But this was not the military situation. Those helpless, unarmed men were not the enemy. No matter what Winder said this was no longer a question of north and south, a question of a war. A question of human beings changes all that. The women who tried to bring the food to the starving man. They saw that. What was your conscience, in General Winder's pockets? Along with his ?inaudible? his money and worth more than any of thoes things.

<v Henry Wirtz>You speak high, colonel, high, but I'm still here in this room. If they can say in their hearts they would have done different if they had been to my place, let them. You are all the victors here. You make up a morality for the losers. <v NP Chipman>Yes, the victors make the morality for the losers cannot. <v Henry Wirtz>And I spit on that morality. I spit on it. And if ?inaudible? say in this room if they would have done different, ask them. <v NP Chipman>They cannot. They must ?inaudible? for the world we didn't. For the prospect before us then is a world of Andersonvilles. Of jailors concerned only with executing the commands of the Masters so free of that conscience, concerned only with the masters to whom they have lost their souls. Might not the jailer commit murder then? <v Henry Wirtz>I did not commit murder.

<v NP Chipman>You did not kill William Steward <v Henry Wirtz>There was no William Steward. <v NP Chipman>Fury with those men, fury so ?inaudible? to overcome the weakness in your arms. <v Henry Wirtz>It is, as the doctor said. <v NP Chipman>Don't you dare say that you and I have been in the past. We've seen them with their bowels in their hands and legs broken still move forward. You move those dead arms, you raised them. <v Henry Wirtz>No. <v NP Chipman>Yes. Yes, you did. You were in a fury when you rode out with those men and when you caught them, you're raised your shooting arm. And how would you ?inaudible.? <v Henry Wirtz> [screams] I had to raise my arm sometimes, yeah. But I did not kill any William Stewart because there was no William Stewart so help me God. <v NP Chipman>?inaudible? but you had to obey those orders that were killing them. ?inaudible? the same.

<v Henry Wirtz>I could not disobey. I did my duty as I spoke, I have made that clear. Which I will explain that it will not do for you, and you badger me, you badger me.I have made it clear that I have to keep order there to keep our record monthly of the number of prisoners, including those escaped, and to report that to general Winder on to the war department on, you badger me. It has been made clear and you will not let go. To prevent them from escaping, to keep a record of the attempted escapes, that was my responsibility, isn't that clear? Even though I have not enough men. That does not excuse me. Though I found the job overwhelming is not clear. But you badger me. It was overwhelming. And I have to find ways and means to block those escape attempts. That was my duty it was solely on my head. And so I prevented it and my preventing it, they tried. And no move to stop them completely successful. Nothing, nothing could stop them. And the responsibility solely mine. The dead land? That could not prevent them. The cannon mounted on the walls could not prevent them. They kept trying. Digging, burrowing, burrowing, in the night, burrowing, crushed by the weight of the world timber's when they made the mistake to tunnel directly under those logs. And they are continuing, continuing to track down with logs, trying again. And I have to anticipate finding that tunnels and the tricks they try to put it in. They try and I prevent them. They- Bribing the guards with greenbacks. Blackening their faces to look like niggers to get the bodies out of the stockade. And I tried to block those moves. Nothing prevents them to try, the burrowing. ?inaudible? To see them, to know what they are doing, burrowing in the night, digging, hopeless effort ?inaudible? digging, crawling. <v NP Chipman>Like rats. Rats may die and they have no compunction about rats.

<v Henry Wirtz>Yeah. I meant rats, so to speak. Playing a cheap lawyer trick on me <v NP Chipman>Very well, cheap lawyers trick. So they were not rats to you. But they were no longer men in your mind, you cancel them out as man made them less than men. Then they might die and one need not suffer over that. Why? Why did you try to commit suicide, Mr. Wirtz? Was it because you feel ?inaudible? Was it because you feel nothing as a human being and cannot endure yourself feeling. You speak so much of your children because you've already asked them in your mind. Should I have done my duty? Should I have given him that drink of water and you have already heard the answer. Yes, you wish to die. I ask you for the last time, why? And it was not a fear of dismissal or court marshall, any external thing. Why? Go inside yourself, couldn't you disobey? <v Henry Wirtz>I could not. I did not have that feeling inside myself to do to do that,I did not have that feeling of.

<v NP Chipman>?inaudible? <v Henry Wirtz>That may be true. I could not. <v NP Chipman>The government rests.

<v General Wallace>And on the charge that the prisoner did what others conspired to destroy the lives of soldiers in the military service of the United States in violation of the laws and customs of war, guilty. And on the various specifications that he aided and abetted murder and did commit murder guilty. And the court did therefore sentence him, they said Henry Wirtz to be hanged by the neck to he be dead in such a time and place as the president of the United States may direct two thirds of the members of the court and turn their ruling. Thebusiness to this military court being terminated. We declare this court dissolved. <v Mr. Otis Baker>Well, I'll say this, at least you fought on your own terms.

<v NP Chipman>I asked for his guilt not his death. <v Mr. Otis Baker>He dies anyway. His life of the union dead, political verdict, charged of what he is and who cares. <v NP Chipman>I do. <v Mr. Otis Baker>And what's that got to do with the real world? Men will go on, most of them subject to fears and so subject of power and authority. How do we change that slavery when it's a man's very nature? <v NP Chipman>Is it. <v Mr. Otis Baker>We try to redecorate the beast and all sorts of political coats, hoping that we will change it. But is he to be changed? <v NP Chipman>I don't know. We try. <v Announcer>The preceding program was made possible through a grant from the Ford Foundation. The advocates and the Forsyte saga will be seen next week at the regularly scheduled times. Nationwide distribution of the preceding program is a service of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.