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<v Speaker>Woman An in-depth exploration of the world of women today with <v Speaker>Samantha Dean. <v Samantha Dean>Good evening. Tonight on Woman, we're going to be talking about the sexual development of <v Samantha Dean>the child and the parental role played in this development. <v Samantha Dean>Our guest is Dr. Mary Calderone, who is the executive director and <v Samantha Dean>co-founder of SIECUS. That's the Sex Information and Education Council <v Samantha Dean>of the United States. <v Samantha Dean>Dr. Calderone, start off, I'd like to ask you, what are the first signs of sexual <v Samantha Dean>awareness in a small child? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>I think that the first thing that parents will notice is the discovery <v Dr. Mary Calderone>of pleasurable sensations when the child touches certain parts of his body, particularly <v Dr. Mary Calderone>the genitalia. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Actually, this is totally, totally normal because the parents encourage <v Dr. Mary Calderone>exploration by the child of his own body. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>You know what? Where is your nose and where is your ears and where is your hands and <v Dr. Mary Calderone>fingers and your tummy button? But then they always stop in the diaper area

<v Dr. Mary Calderone>and they are liable to get quite upset when the child finds his genitalia <v Dr. Mary Calderone>and gets pleasure out of touching them. But this is really entirely normal, and I <v Dr. Mary Calderone>think this is probably the first sign of the awakening sensations <v Dr. Mary Calderone>in the child. <v Samantha Dean>And at what age does this usually take place? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It can happen very young. Three or four months. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It can happen at 6 months. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>With, it was found by Kinzie, that perhaps 30 percent boy babies had had an <v Dr. Mary Calderone>orgasm in the first year of life. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>The second thing that a boy baby does after yelling is to have an erection. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>These are things that most people aren't aware of. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>In other words, children are born with the potentiality of becoming fully sexual <v Dr. Mary Calderone>people. If they weren't born that way, we'd have to call them abnormal. <v Samantha Dean>And how should parents react to this first demonstration of sexuality and child? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>I think that most psychiatrists, physicians today agree that the <v Dr. Mary Calderone>parents don't have to react at all. They can be happy that their child is normal

<v Dr. Mary Calderone>and that's about it and not be scared that their child is going to grow up a sex <v Dr. Mary Calderone>maniac or anything like that. <v Samantha Dean>Right. Well, we've established that sexuality is present virtually from birth or from a <v Samantha Dean>few weeks or months afterwards. <v Samantha Dean>When should you make your first conscious effort at educating a child? <v Samantha Dean>Along these lines, sexually? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It's interesting that you use that word conscious because it depends <v Dr. Mary Calderone>a lot on what you've been doing unconsciously. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Most parents aren't aware I think of how much they do do unconsciously in sex education <v Dr. Mary Calderone>of their children, which literally begins at birth. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>There's no question about it that the child begins to sense what a woman is, what a man <v Dr. Mary Calderone>is. By the way, the parents pick up the child, handle the baby. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>The child gets to feel that a woman is a soft, giving, warm creature <v Dr. Mary Calderone>who smells deliciously of milk and has <v Dr. Mary Calderone>a soft voice and loving arms. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Possibly the child finds that a woman is not this kind of a person, that a woman is a

<v Dr. Mary Calderone>hard rejecting, hostile creature who has angry tones in her voice. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Perhaps when she speaks to the father, and then that becomes, that's sex education, <v Dr. Mary Calderone>because the child begins to associate these qualities with what a woman is. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Certainly the way the parents see each other and treat each other as man <v Dr. Mary Calderone>and woman. This is the very earliest sex education that a child <v Dr. Mary Calderone>can get. If the parents are loving and warm and accepting to each other and of <v Dr. Mary Calderone>each other and accepting of themselves as man and woman. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And happy in being man and woman and being together as man and woman. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>This is the best sex education that a child can have, particularly if the parents can <v Dr. Mary Calderone>express this love to each other. I mean, I don't mean necessarily in front of the child, <v Dr. Mary Calderone>but the aura is there of love and satisfaction in each other. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And the child senses this very, very early. <v Samantha Dean>So can continued expressions of affection, demonstrations of affection are very, very <v Samantha Dean>important to a child's development. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>I think so, yes. Particularly in the tones of the voice and in the warmth with which

<v Dr. Mary Calderone>the child is drawn into the circle of love and affection and <v Dr. Mary Calderone>acceptance. Dr. Masters always says that the best sex education <v Dr. Mary Calderone>a child can have is a father giving mommy <v Dr. Mary Calderone>a pat on the fanny as you go through the kitchen while she's doing the dishes or <v Dr. Mary Calderone>something like that course. Maybe you'll be doing the dishes. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Maybe she'll pat him on the fanny as she goes by. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It probably is, certainly really young households. <v Samantha Dean>When should you take it one step further and actually talk about sex? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Information? <v Samantha Dean>Information? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Yes, I think that's a very important question. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Many parents want to know if they should bring up the subject if their children haven't <v Dr. Mary Calderone>asked. And it's true that, you know, the old joke where did I come from, <v Dr. Mary Calderone>mommy? And the long involved discussion and the child really want to know they came from <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Brooklyn or Buffalo. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It's true that there are teachable moments. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>But if a child hasn't, by the age of four or so begun to ask about babies <v Dr. Mary Calderone>and where they come from and how they're made.

<v Dr. Mary Calderone>I would definitely make it my business if I were a parent. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>To bring up the topic, because there's always somebody in the neighborhood having a baby. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>This is a golden opportunity to tell this wonderful story. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Where babies come from, which, of course, is just the reproductive story. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It's not the full sexual story, but it lays the groundwork for an easy and warm <v Dr. Mary Calderone>acceptance of the role of the father and the mother in the creation of the baby, which <v Dr. Mary Calderone>comes a little bit later. <v Samantha Dean>It seems that most preschoolers knowledge of sex is in the area of reproduction <v Samantha Dean>and they sort of imagine that sex or reproduction, rather, is the sole purpose <v Samantha Dean>for sex. That you have sex maybe four or five times a year. <v Samantha Dean>uh, in a lifetime, rather, depending on how many children you have. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>There's many preschoolers, I've heard twelve year old boys say, well, I guess my mom and <v Dr. Mary Calderone>dad did it three times because there's three of us. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>[Samantha Dean: Right. Yes.] And this is really quite sad, because what it does is to <v Dr. Mary Calderone>leave the young with the idea that sex is only and purely for reproduction. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>When the churches, we all know that the other and equally important <v Dr. Mary Calderone>role is a deepening of the relationship between the husband and wife.

<v Samantha Dean>So when should you bring up the idea of the pleasure concept? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>I think that the joy of the sexual relationship between <v Dr. Mary Calderone>husband and wife is something that can be very easily communicated by <v Dr. Mary Calderone>indicating that people do not have intercourse just to have a baby, that <v Dr. Mary Calderone>they really do it because they love each other. That is a tremendously private thing <v Dr. Mary Calderone>only for a mother and father together. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And that modern medicine has made it possible to have this <v Dr. Mary Calderone>beautiful relationship without necessarily having it result in a baby every time. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Now that is easily understood by the child of five, and that lays the groundwork for <v Dr. Mary Calderone>later acceptance of the whole principle of family planning, which is so vital to our <v Dr. Mary Calderone>welfare these days. <v Samantha Dean>But then you've necessarily got to incorporate birth control in your discussions? <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Not the techniques. I don't think that's important at all. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Because by the time the child is grown up, the techniques will have changed. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>So why go into a long discussion about them. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And I think that's totally out of place. I really do. <v Samantha Dean>What should your attitudes and approaches be to sex play in a child,

<v Samantha Dean>you know, experimentation, playing doctors. <v Samantha Dean>And-. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>This is part of growing up. This is part of the experimentation of discovering another <v Dr. Mary Calderone>person's body besides your own. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And again, it's not shouldn't be made a matter of big, you know, story <v Dr. Mary Calderone>or hoop-dee-do, but taken as it goes. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>All parents have gone through it and they lived through it. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And they become perfectly normal, happy people, I presume. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And children will keep on doing this till the ends of their day, till the end of mankind. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>I don't think it's a matter of tremendous concern. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>And I think it's a great pity if a big hassle is made of <v Dr. Mary Calderone>it in a neighborhood. Let's say if a little boy is found, as most little boys always <v Dr. Mary Calderone>do, picking up a little girl's skirts to see how a little girl is made. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>Little girls peek into the bathroom when the little boys are going to the bathroom. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>See how little boys are made. This is par for the course, they want to know. <v Samantha Dean>Because most the books that you read nowadays on sex play. Advised the parents to take a rather intellectual approach to it and certainly encourage questions and answer the questions, but advise the child that a more active approach to the subject is just not appropriate at the moment. <v Samantha Dean>Which-.

<v Dr. Mary Calderone>That's kind of intellectual, isn't it? <v Samantha Dean>It is, exactly. And I didn't-. <v Dr. Mary Calderone>It seems to me that one should not make too much of a thing about it. <v Speaker>I like to ask you a question, the other side of the coin approximately. <v Speaker>I'm sure it's difficult to say exactly, but what percentage of patients in America <v Speaker>are female? <v Speaker>That is, persons who seek help for emotional pain or institutionalized? <v Speaker>Well, Phyllis Chesler was one of the first people to really go <v Speaker>into this very carefully. And she concludes that women <v Speaker>far outnumber males in all kinds of psychiatric and <v Speaker>therapy, mental health therapy situations. <v Speaker>So what conclusions do you draw from this? <v Speaker>One model almost imagined that there are certain psychoses or disorders which are <v Speaker>uniquely female by this statistic. <v Speaker>I think that's probably true. Jesse Bernard, who's a very famous sociologist and who has <v Speaker>made a profession of her professional interest, has been marriage, <v Speaker>concludes in her book Women in the Public Interest.

<v Speaker>And another book that she wrote called The Future of Marriage that marriage drives women <v Speaker>crazy. She compares the man's marriage and the woman's marriage. <v Speaker>And she makes the point that marriage for men is a very good deal <v Speaker>in terms of his psychological health and so on. <v Speaker>For a woman who is not a single, men have a higher rate of <v Speaker>mental illness than married men, but single women have a lower rate <v Speaker>of mental health problems than married women. <v Speaker>Well, when you're talking about mental health problems, which which women suffer from <v Speaker>now, what are you talking about? Things like depression, psychosomatic illnesses or <v Speaker>anything that drives a woman to seek professional help because <v Speaker>of a, quote, emotional problem is comes into that category of a mental <v Speaker>health problem. And for some women, it might simply be the feeling that life was <v Speaker>not allowing them a normal amount of satisfaction, <v Speaker>just a feeling of dissatisfaction for other women. <v Speaker>It might be a fear that they were going to commit suicide or perhaps murder

<v Speaker>or whatever. <v Speaker>People have recognized for a long time that there tended to be many more women in <v Speaker>analysis than in therapy than men. <v Speaker>And one of the explanations for that was that it's more proper in our society <v Speaker>for a woman to admit that she needs help. <v Speaker>It's part of the traditional training of women for them to seek help. <v Speaker>Doctors in medical professions that is physical, non mental <v Speaker>health problems have also noticed that they have more women patients and they have <v Speaker>concluded male doctors have concluded that this is because it is <v Speaker>OK for a woman to say she's in pain and it's not proper for a man to say that. <v Speaker>And I think that's one of the reasons women seek medical help of all kinds more readily. <v Speaker>Did you find out about the female therapists in the field currently to date? <v Speaker>Do you think they're just reflecting the teachings of their. <v Speaker>And some are. Some aren't. <v Speaker>And some do in some ways and not in others. <v Speaker>For example, my advice to women who are trying <v Speaker>to see what kind of therapist would be good for them.

<v Speaker>What was going on? Whether or not it's a woman or a man. <v Speaker>Therapist I think they may want to consider. <v Speaker>But more importantly, I think they should ask questions like, how <v Speaker>do you feel, Doctor, about the feminist movement or the women's liberation movement? <v Speaker>How has it affected your practice? In what way have you changed because of <v Speaker>women's new and intense struggle for equality of opportunity <v Speaker>and employment and so on? And if the therapist, whether or not it's <v Speaker>a man or woman, gives any sign of disapproving of this seeking <v Speaker>after equality or gives any sign of ridiculing of it or <v Speaker>or criticism of the leaders, anything like that, I think would make me really <v Speaker>wary of that therapist attitude toward women. <v Speaker>An older woman is not of any value in this society. <v Speaker>And as evidence of that, we women.

<v Speaker>Most of us try very hard to preserve the <v Speaker>semblance of youth. We use cosmetics. <v Speaker>We use plastic surgery. <v Speaker>We lie about our age. <v Speaker>When I was 33 years old, I looked in the mirror and I said, there it is. <v Speaker>Thirty three. It's the first 33 year old woman I've ever seen. <v Speaker>And I had no idea. What? <v Speaker>You know what, Rudy? You know, I know people who were 19 and 20 <v Speaker>and I knew of women who were 70. <v Speaker>Nobody in between would admit her age. <v Speaker>Unfortunate thing that that struck me as women supposedly come into their prime as far <v Speaker>as sexuality is concerned in their 30s, few years after <v Speaker>that, they considered over the hill. So we have a very short term. <v Speaker>It's very short. I understand a woman is at her height at 34 and she's over the hill at <v Speaker>35. And I remember those few. <v Speaker>I wish somebody was looking in the mirror. <v Speaker>Fortunately, I read it at certain giving. <v Speaker>Advertising, the media and so on has it has a lot to do with perpetuating and emphasizing

<v Speaker>the youth cult and depicting middle aged people and perhaps less favorable <v Speaker>and not ever showing pictures of older women, except that they're funny, they're <v Speaker>a joke or they're sick, or that we see this all right. <v Speaker>Leaning our down our dancers again and again and again. <v Speaker>And it's the same thing with the same eyelashes and the same indeterminate <v Speaker>age. That could be it's indeterminate could be the nineteen or twenty five. <v Speaker>But sure, we see this. <v Speaker>But you do see older men in ads but not very old mean as you say, it's <v Speaker>a youth dominated culture and not all cultures are youth dominated. <v Speaker>Some are age revering cultures. <v Speaker>Yes. <v Speaker>Right. How about you, sister? <v Speaker>And my husband has been incredibly reasonable about the thing <v Speaker>in the beginning. He encouraged me to run for the legislature. <v Speaker>I've always said that there will never be any race more difficult than my first race.

<v Speaker>In 1968, when I ran for the legislature, I wasn't a token, I was a joke. <v Speaker>And he encouraged me without question. <v Speaker>As I became more immersed in my work, it became more difficult. <v Speaker>But again, no one had to make the decision in 72 about where I <v Speaker>was going. He encouraged me to run for the governors position, <v Speaker>something I really appreciated because so many people flinched at <v Speaker>the idea in the beginning. <v Speaker>He didn't, though. And just the other evening I was talking to him because <v Speaker>of right now I don't know really where I'm going personally, but as <v Speaker>Jill and I are both involved in the caucus, I have been EROI in such things. <v Speaker>It takes me away a great part of the time. <v Speaker>And he was saying that I couldn't stop by now. <v Speaker>So I guess you'd say that's exceedingly reasonable. <v Speaker>He all right. Being equal rights now, do you think there's any particular

<v Speaker>type of woman that gets into politics? <v Speaker>Are there any underlying similarities or can't you generalize? <v Speaker>You know, of course, you know the whole thing I say. <v Speaker>I came to the woman's movement through politics. <v Speaker>The woman's movement wasn't even it wasn't even a term in Texas in 1968. <v Speaker>I went into politics because I've always been interested in it. <v Speaker>I knew the obstacles, but I felt once, if I was elected, those obstacles <v Speaker>of being a woman in one thing wouldn't would go away. <v Speaker>They did not. <v Speaker>But that's that's another. <v Speaker>On another subject of one <v Speaker>dog there, though, that there were areas of vast neglect <v Speaker>that what we generally call women's issues. <v Speaker>So and now in the Texas legislature, instead of being one woman, <v Speaker>is it was the two terms. I served there six and <v Speaker>happily they're different types of different characteristics,

<v Speaker>different backgrounds, different training, different races. <v Speaker>And so I don't think there's any occasion. <v Speaker>I know there's a stereotype. <v Speaker>Yes. And you two, incidentally, are both very different from the traditional stereotype. <v Speaker>You're both very quietly spoken in low key, at least, you know, on cursory <v Speaker>acquaintanceship. This is the way you come over. <v Speaker>Do you feel this has worked to your advantage or disadvantage? <v Speaker>Well, I think it's something that I think that is my approach. <v Speaker>And I prefer, um, communication instead of confrontation. <v Speaker>Other women in politics have found that that the confrontation technique has been <v Speaker>successful in their point of view. And I think it's your own temperament. <v Speaker>I mean, it's you know, it's your own style. <v Speaker>I constantly urge women to run for office and get involved and not be turned off by the <v Speaker>styles of other women. So I believe if it didn't appeal to them, the guys could have us <v Speaker>look at the number of men who have so different. <v Speaker>I will say. Is there any one particular female politician whom you think is <v Speaker>particularly effective? Was his style appeals to you specifically?

<v Speaker>Oh, I think so. <v Speaker>A vast numbers of for example, I'm a great admirer of Bella Abzug. <v Speaker>I've often thought of it. Now, I don't think I could get seven votes in her district. <v Speaker>I wouldn't be heard. <v Speaker>For one thing, if she's a person of tremendous <v Speaker>ability, I think. And I just have a great deal of respect <v Speaker>for. And again, I don't think we have <v Speaker>much in common. <v Speaker>You know, to just see the two of us together and think Bella will get many votes and <v Speaker>she might. <v Speaker>She came off awfully strong in Commerce, Texas. <v Speaker>We'll get another couple of months ago she was down there. <v Speaker>But that's just one person. I'm sure there are others. <v Speaker>Shirley Chisholm, our great deal, Bella, I have worked more with <v Speaker>and I've heard it said and I'm in no way connecting this thought with <v Speaker>better obstacle or any specific person. <v Speaker>But I've heard it said very often that when women get in a position of political power, <v Speaker>they very often sell out to other women.

<v Speaker>In other words, that they don't use as many women as they perhaps might on their staff <v Speaker>and they don't campaign as actively feel for women's causes. <v Speaker>Do you think there's any truth to this? And if so, can you explain the psychological <v Speaker>phenomenon? <v Speaker>I would. May I say something in jail? <v Speaker>Because I think that's one of those fallacies. <v Speaker>Really? You do? Let me say again, from my own experience. <v Speaker>So one of those myths that could only be punctured <v Speaker>by being challenged is this thing of women not working for other women. <v Speaker>And I've seen a change from 1968 when I first ran <v Speaker>to 72, when I ran when a greater and greater numbers of <v Speaker>women were participating and worked their hearts out. <v Speaker>And I hope that I've been able to reciprocate in kind. <v Speaker>So to me, that's I think it's one of those myths that you've sort of <v Speaker>developed. <v Speaker>I think it may have been true maybe five or six or seven years ago that <v Speaker>women were not thinking about themselves as role models and they weren't thinking about

<v Speaker>the lack of other women in the system. <v Speaker>I've talked, I know, with Warren, who ran for the Senate in 1970. <v Speaker>She said one of her real problems was getting other women to accept her as a candidate. <v Speaker>This fall, she was also campaigning. <v Speaker>He said he felt that the whole acceptance of a woman in politics <v Speaker>would come around. <v Speaker>He's changed since 68. <v Speaker>And I see it now when I campaign and women say, well, wait till seventy six. <v Speaker>I mean, there's a real for the five men. <v Speaker>Congresswoman, I think that we're elected in November. <v Speaker>Barbara Jordan from Texas. About Brathwaite from California. <v Speaker>Marjorie Hall from Maryland. This whole from New York. <v Speaker>And Pat Schroeder from Colorado are women who are acutely <v Speaker>conscious of their role as women in the Congress and what they mean <v Speaker>to other women who aspire to public office and who feel very responsible for that <v Speaker>national constituency. They have it. <v Speaker>Yeah, I think that there was a tremendous sense of. <v Speaker>And I know from my own experience of isolation in the past

<v Speaker>that I don't think women officeholders now have. <v Speaker>When you name the five, I mean, there's there's an awareness. <v Speaker>And with that isolation, I know I had my own experience when I went to the Texas <v Speaker>legislature and I wanted to introduce legislation for State Human Relations Commission <v Speaker>that would prohibit discrimination based upon race or <v Speaker>religion or ethnic background. <v Speaker>And the professor that was drafting the. <v Speaker>Flation wanted to had sex, and I said, no, let's concern ourselves <v Speaker>with the minorities. He insisted that be put in one term later <v Speaker>and two years later, when I reintroduce that legislation in the Texas <v Speaker>legislature, I had no qualms whatsoever about aiding sex, prohibiting <v Speaker>discrimination based on sex simply because of what I had learned that I was not <v Speaker>aware of. Literally. <v Speaker>Do you think this sexual conflict is greater in politics than <v Speaker>perhaps in other institutions? I think you just don't know.

<v Speaker>For example, I say down in Texas that I'll take my chances with the electorate rather <v Speaker>than practice law as a woman in that state. <v Speaker>Really? Yeah. I mean, that that's just happened. <v Speaker>So. So I think there are those problems in all the institutions <v Speaker>and all the institutions that are powerful. <v Speaker>We have had this dichotomy in this country, you know, from finance, economics. <v Speaker>So all the professions, technology. <v Speaker>As I say, with its deadliest offspring of modern warfare <v Speaker>and politics, where the power hays has all been masculine dominated <v Speaker>and principally white male domination and we have <v Speaker>served as handmaidens. <v Speaker>You know, 90 percent, for example, of dietitians, librarians, <v Speaker>elementary school teachers and nurses or women. <v Speaker>Know those have been the roles of some women and also the political backbone of the <v Speaker>country.

<v Speaker>But in a in a volunteer situation, in a volunteer capacity, as <v Speaker>poll watchers, CEO has often said, had I waited on the Democratic Cook County <v Speaker>party in my home county new ACSU to run for office, I'd <v Speaker>still be answering telephones. <v Speaker>So you find it in that institution as well. <v Speaker>So that's a that's a role, I think that the caucus, the National Women's Political <v Speaker>Caucus is playing so well now, and it's encouraging women who have <v Speaker>gained vast experience in politics. <v Speaker>So volunteerism and, you know, taking the polls and addressing envelopes in <v Speaker>the Manning headquarters and who know how the process works. <v Speaker>And also being the experience of working in their communities and really know what the <v Speaker>social need to think of themselves in a new way, not as supporting cast, but <v Speaker>as potential candidates who have a terrific contribution to make. <v Speaker>When was the caucus setup and how long's it been going? <v Speaker>Well, it was organized in June 1971. <v Speaker>So two years old is coming in. <v Speaker>I think it's reflective of really the need it is for feel that it it has

<v Speaker>developed as as it has. And I really think when it was before I was involved because <v Speaker>I was down running for office or something. <v Speaker>Oh, was its insistence that it was time for a woman to be appointed to the Supreme <v Speaker>Court? And I think people now are generally aware of that. <v Speaker>I wanted to mention one thing before it passed. <v Speaker>And as I say that I have participated in the electoral process, which is what <v Speaker>I like a great deal, and I haven't had a textbook to do it. <v Speaker>And I think there are three terms that come to my mind that I think <v Speaker>are prerequisites and there are things that I believe. <v Speaker>But I think you can generalize from them. <v Speaker>First is an awareness. And I think you were speaking of that. <v Speaker>There's a greater awareness and you have to have the awareness before you do anything <v Speaker>and then you have to have an assertiveness. And I think what you're speaking of the role <v Speaker>of the caucus in getting women into moving on past the the <v Speaker>so much of the work they've done has called for a new assertiveness.

<v Speaker>And then I think there comes time for what I call audacity. <v Speaker>And it's the audacity that breaks down the barriers and. <v Speaker>Develops things for the future. <v Speaker>Ulceration is a what is normal jealousy? <v Speaker>I mean, what what comes within the bounds of normal jealousy? <v Speaker>Oh, I think their children are extremely jealous, especially the preschool children. <v Speaker>They resent the time you spend with the other baby who isn't walking or talking <v Speaker>or doing anything. They resent the attention of all the other people that come over <v Speaker>and forget about this older child who's there. <v Speaker>Forget to bring them a little toy or present and forget to include him in these things. <v Speaker>In most people, I recommend that you try <v Speaker>to spend more time with the older child because the baby isn't doing very much at that <v Speaker>point. And every anyone can hold and cuddle them, feed them. <v Speaker>It's the older child that needs the emotional attention.

<v Speaker>Mothers get tired. They have extra problems when babies come. <v Speaker>And I've had them say to me, I don't understand why he's so jealous of the new baby. <v Speaker>And I said, well, how would you feel if your husband brought home the second wife and <v Speaker>told you that he loved you just as much as he always had? <v Speaker>But here was a new addition. And somehow that seems to get through that, you know, they <v Speaker>do see it as someone who's replacing them and someone who takes the time <v Speaker>and attention and affection that they had for quarter of an and it's normal <v Speaker>to expect them to feel some jealousy. <v Speaker>You mentioned when should you tell a child about divorce during the arguing <v Speaker>stage, when the divorce has been filed or after the divorce is granted? <v Speaker>When at the point of separation and when <v Speaker>you are really considering the divorce, I think is the time and children hold out hope <v Speaker>that the parents are going to get back together even to the last moment. <v Speaker>And I think this is wrong. I think you have to tell them that this is final. <v Speaker>This is a final event, that you are not going to live together anymore and then turn

<v Speaker>around and give them support to handle their situation by saying, well, you still going <v Speaker>to live with me? If that is the mother or the father and that the other parent is still <v Speaker>interested in lump-sum and move, visit them and see them. <v Speaker>So you tell them the truth and then turn around and try to support them in the knowledge <v Speaker>of the truth. <v Speaker>You think it's ever a good thing to fantasize death to children and sort of say, well, <v Speaker>your uncle took a trip, he's up in the clouds now, he's flying around and he's really <v Speaker>having a good time? Or should you say he got sick and he died? <v Speaker>I think the truth is the only way to tell a child that somebody died and <v Speaker>it doesn't matter even how young the child is. <v Speaker>I feel that at any age you should tell them the truth. <v Speaker>What they'll understand about death is, depends on their age. <v Speaker>You can start telling children about death even when they're very young. <v Speaker>If they have a pet turtle or a goldfish that dies. <v Speaker>They'll turn it over and look at it and see that it doesn't move. <v Speaker>And that's death. And they understand very concretely.

<v Speaker>I think eventually about that. <v Speaker>If you fantasize about it and they feel and they get old enough, they <v Speaker>feel you've lied to them a little bit. <v Speaker>And every time maybe if they got in an airplane and they were going up in the <v Speaker>sky, maybe they're going to die and not come back, because that's maybe where you told <v Speaker>them uncle Henry went. <v Speaker>So you should use these day to day occurrences like discovering a little dead bird in the <v Speaker>street and sort of use it to explain. <v Speaker>The-. <v Speaker> There is always something. <v Speaker>The flowers, trees, seasons.. Everything you can. <v Speaker>You can teach a child. <v Speaker>How about if a relative is is terminally ill. <v Speaker>It's obvious he's going to die. Should you prepare the child in advance or <v Speaker>do you think this might have the effect of making the child very scared the next time <v Speaker>when he's ill? He feels that, you know, he's had his chips. <v Speaker>I think it depends. If the child is close to the relative or if you're very upset <v Speaker>about it yourself, you might as well tell the child because he's gonna know something's <v Speaker>wrong and he's probably going to imagine something much worse than than even what's <v Speaker>really happening.

<v Speaker>On the other hand, if it's a distant aunt who he never sees and you're not particularly <v Speaker>upset, it's good enough to wait until it happens and then say, well, you know, aunt <v Speaker>Maggie died and then deal with what comes next. <v Speaker>You know? <v Speaker>It's a very natural phenomenon, death and grief and working this out. <v Speaker>And if you don't prepare the child when they're very young to handle a situation like <v Speaker>that, they won't be able to do it. When you're older, they have to learn how to work <v Speaker>through grief. And it's a natural emotion. <v Speaker>You just shouldn't protect your children against that kind of a natural growing up <v Speaker>emotional process. <v Speaker>How did you. <v Speaker>I'm interested from a sociological point of view, do you find that men abuse children <v Speaker>any more, any less when they're at home, when the wife is the breadwinner with <v Speaker>any greater degree of frequency, for instance? <v Speaker>Statistics that we do have show pretty much, you know, even <v Speaker>kinds of things between father and mother. <v Speaker>One of the things about abuse, especially the serious kind, however, is that you rarely

<v Speaker>know what really happens because there's almost never an admission <v Speaker>by the parent, except maybe years later the abuse is documented by <v Speaker>medical evidence, really, so that no one comes <v Speaker>in and says, I did it. And it's often just you kind of guess which <v Speaker>parent may have done it. But it seems to be pretty well divided. <v Speaker>It's fairly evenly divided, although you'll find that Ellen and I may differ in a few <v Speaker>points because I read the medical literature and she may read the social literature, but <v Speaker>from what I gather from the literature that I read, the father is <v Speaker>the more abusing parent in overall numbers of cases. <v Speaker>But in the more serious cases, it's by and large the mother. <v Speaker>Why do you think this is so? <v Speaker>I really don't know. I think that's something for a psychologist to work out. <v Speaker>But there's this is rather clear in the statistics, at least of of medically reported <v Speaker>cases, that the father is the more at least to be abusers. <v Speaker>He doesn't abuse as badly as the mother does.

<v Speaker>Have you personally seen abuse cases where it has been the father who has been <v Speaker>instrumental? <v Speaker>Oh, yes, mother also. <v Speaker>The only fatalities that I've been involved with, <v Speaker>which were four, we're all mother. <v Speaker>Oh, really? Yes. Yes. How about boys versus girls? <v Speaker>Do. Did the girls, you know, suffer more or do boys suffer <v Speaker>more? Or is it more or less even? That's pretty much 50/50. <v Speaker>Right. <v Speaker>So sometimes it's the sex of the child that maybe causes the abuse. <v Speaker>But, you know, in a broad range of population that comes out to be pretty even. <v Speaker>Is it confined to any socio economic strata of society <v Speaker>or is it diversified? <v Speaker>I think it depends what study you do and where the reporting comes from. <v Speaker>That's, of course, the problem in all of this. When we talk about abuse, we're really <v Speaker>talking about cases that get reported. <v Speaker>So then you have to look at where are the ones that aren't being reported or are there <v Speaker>any. It's true that the poor tend to have to use, <v Speaker>you know, clinics, public hospitals and so on.

<v Speaker>They don't have the private pediatrician. <v Speaker>So they're much more visible. So that reporting could be weighted that way. <v Speaker>Actually, studies have shown contrasting things. <v Speaker>Some have shown predominately poverty areas and others have shown <v Speaker>more or less middle class. I would say most studies pretty much show <v Speaker>that it's not upper middle class America that's abusing their child or certainly not. <v Speaker>What's getting reported is a. <v Speaker>Dr. Marrow, there is a trend nowadays, isn't there, to give teenagers more control, <v Speaker>more freedom in their own lives. Now, do you think this control should spread to the area <v Speaker>of sexuality? <v Speaker>No, not at all. That it sounds very popular. <v Speaker>And I think the youngsters seem to think we're favoring them when we, the adult <v Speaker>generation say you're on your own. <v Speaker>We'll give you freedom. But I offer this observation that <v Speaker>a youngster who's been on earth for 18 years may possibly look <v Speaker>toward the older generation, the parents, the teachers and so on for truth,

<v Speaker>for guidance, for insight, for values. <v Speaker>And I think it is the great mission of the parent generation <v Speaker>and those whom the parents also entrust to the education of their children. <v Speaker>The great mission is to expose before the youngsters truths <v Speaker>or insights which might possibly help the youngsters in every area. <v Speaker>And I think when it comes to sex. <v Speaker>We have defrauded the average young person of today. <v Speaker>We have acted as if sex is some some sort of biological drive <v Speaker>and a man that unfortunately gets you into trouble unless you take precautions. <v Speaker>So therefore, show them what the contraceptives are and get out of my hair. <v Speaker>And I think that they were shortchanging the youth. <v Speaker>We have not told them anything of the mystery of sex. <v Speaker>The. The mystery of love, the meaning of life, the meaning of death. <v Speaker>This entire context against which alone sex <v Speaker>can be understood had been blacked out. <v Speaker>So I don't think the youngsters of today are especially fortunate.

<v Speaker>I don't I think that they are the impoverished youngsters of today because they don't <v Speaker>know and they haven't heard anything. <v Speaker>But to me, a biological viewpoint of sex that teenagers <v Speaker>might come back at you and say, well, we are not considered appendages any <v Speaker>longer of our parents. We have the right to vote. <v Speaker>We can be sent to war. We can in certain states marry without our parents consent. <v Speaker>Should we therefore not have the right to determine whether or not we have intercourse <v Speaker>before marriage? <v Speaker>Well, yes, I like you said, you are, in a sense, the teenage advocate. <v Speaker>I like this Declaration of Independence on your part. <v Speaker>But the point is that however old or young you are. <v Speaker>Never mind that you arrange your life originally depends on your parents <v Speaker>and the state and the medical doctors and the policeman who gave you some <v Speaker>sort of order. But I would suggest to teenagers and middle class, <v Speaker>middle age people alike that the entire mystery of human life ultimately

<v Speaker>depends on something called God. <v Speaker>And whether you call. <v Speaker>There is a bit of embarrassment when people want to speak about God. <v Speaker>But I simply say we are walking this planet. <v Speaker>I for forty five years, someone for 18 years, and we are like a mysterious <v Speaker>apparition. We don't know our origin. <v Speaker>We don't know our destiny. We have 60 or 70 years on this planet and then death. <v Speaker>And there is at least a great religious tradition which tells me and the <v Speaker>teenagers that God made you, not you yourself. <v Speaker>And then I would suggest to the teenager before his declaration of Independence <v Speaker>is complete, that perhaps he is depending upon a personal <v Speaker>God who does have the right to tell him, never mind whether <v Speaker>to have sexual intercourse before marriage, but also whether he should kill or not <v Speaker>lie or not steal again. You know, as the teenagers allegedly make <v Speaker>a great to do about how honest they are and they're so exercised

<v Speaker>over the horror of killing. <v Speaker>And my point is, why ought we not to kill me? <v Speaker>Who is telling them not to kill? Right. <v Speaker>So at least in this case, they suddenly recognize a law higher <v Speaker>than themselves, which forbids them to kill children at May lie and <v Speaker>they don't like dishonesty and phoniness. <v Speaker>So I also suggested that there may well be a divine law, <v Speaker>ultimately, by the way, for their own benefit, which tells them to posessed their bodies <v Speaker>in chastity and purity until they are able to <v Speaker>donate their secret to someone they love in a permanent bond. <v Speaker>I see your point, but in view of the reality of the situation that <v Speaker>more teenagers today are sexually active than ever before. <v Speaker>What should we do about this? <v Speaker>Well, I mean, I think whether what I say or not is heard. <v Speaker>I mean, I'm not going to change thing. What we are doing about it is say, go ahead, go <v Speaker>ahead, but protect yourself. That's the way of being responsible.

<v Speaker>I would add my lonely voice saying. <v Speaker>Have you ever thought of not going ahead? <v Speaker>Have you ever heard the word chastity? <v Speaker>And don't laugh now. Have you ever thought of keeping your bodily <v Speaker>integrity in your spiritual integrity until marriage? <v Speaker>So meanwhile, I admit that what I say is not going to change immediately. <v Speaker>But I would like to flatter the young people more than my <v Speaker>contemporaries in the teaching generation. <v Speaker>And I would like to offer them at least the ideal that there's something about sex, <v Speaker>which is a deep mystery. The very fact that a new man comes into being through <v Speaker>sex is very mysterious. It is much more mysterious than any electronic <v Speaker>phenomenon or anything in chemistry or physics that you yourself teenager <v Speaker>with all your hopes and dreams are on this earth because a man and a woman <v Speaker>united. This is a great mystery. <v Speaker>And I would offer to the youngster this ideal of purity, <v Speaker>premarital chastity, if in at least I would say this,

<v Speaker>that if a man falls, at least let him understand that it's <v Speaker>a tragic thing, a sinful thing, that he's squandering himself. <v Speaker>But nowadays we have this kind of pseudo scientific objective view <v Speaker>of things that will. Scientists now know where babies come from. <v Speaker>If it took science to tell us this and we're going to equip the youngsters <v Speaker>with with what they need to prevent this nasty thing called pregnancy, but not <v Speaker>a word about the deep experience of sex. <v Speaker>Not a word about the length of sex to love. <v Speaker>What do you think of the idea, though, of sex education being taught in the schools in <v Speaker>conjunction with parents educating the children along these lines? <v Speaker>Because presumably parents do have the primary influence on educating <v Speaker>the children in this area. And what they says he's got to say is going to have a lasting <v Speaker>effect. <v Speaker>Now, if it's well done in the schools, do you think this will just you know, I had no <v Speaker>objection that when sex education merely meant a serious

<v Speaker>biology, including human reproduction, I had never any objection to that, <v Speaker>nor simply if it meant a half hour film by menstruation or even <v Speaker>if people insist a half hour film on V-Day. <v Speaker>But as you know, the typical sex education curriculum begins in kindergarten <v Speaker>and ends in senior high school 30 years. <v Speaker>And I simply like to know how how long do you need to tell the people the <v Speaker>facts of life? So what they're really trying to do is not merely giving youngsters <v Speaker>the knowledge that might be necessary for this or that, but they're indoctrinating <v Speaker>the youngsters into a flat pseudoscientific. <v Speaker>Anti birth abortion mentality. <v Speaker>And and, by the way, not in conjunction with parents, but sometimes without <v Speaker>the parents knowledge and often without the parents concept, that there are hundreds <v Speaker>of thousand about outraged parents who simply have no political <v Speaker>vehicle whereby to vent their outrage, because if they pulled the trial at one school,

<v Speaker>the other school is just as bad. <v Speaker>So because there is a kind of monopoly of the school systems <v Speaker>where the public or parochial. <v Speaker>Those parents on my side are simply disenfranchised. <v Speaker>How would you suggest parents go about counseling their children on this <v Speaker>matter? <v Speaker>Well, one thing I find it especially frustrating that we often end up dealing with <v Speaker>the teenager who is under 16, who has had no prior conversations <v Speaker>with her parents on this subject and often finds herself in a difficult situation <v Speaker>such as suspecting venereal disease or possibly pregnant and with nowhere <v Speaker>to turn. And this is the teenager that isn't often reached <v Speaker>by the parents home and the school. <v Speaker>And consequently, it's usually a stranger that in some way takes over the management of <v Speaker>this child or this developing young woman.

<v Speaker>And often the lack of communication between this young girl <v Speaker>and her parents is most disturbing. <v Speaker>Often the younger I will insist that her parents not be involved in any discussion <v Speaker>period and you find because of the way the laws are. <v Speaker>Parents have to eventually become involved. <v Speaker>And it's a very traumatic experience for the child and the parents who find out for the <v Speaker>first time that they are in dealing with in their home with <v Speaker>a sexually active, rather young adult young woman who has had certain <v Speaker>wants, needs and desires that they have never been able to interpret or understand. <v Speaker>And consequently, there is a great problem and the problem is communication. <v Speaker>But do you feel that certain parents perhaps experience certain reservations <v Speaker>or raise objections and even have difficulty in coming to terms with the fact <v Speaker>that they're 12, 13, 14 year old child is sexually active? <v Speaker>And perhaps if they give them birth control or give them <v Speaker>education along this lines, this is sort of giving tacit approval or even actively

<v Speaker>condoning and a later ensuing sexual relationships. <v Speaker>I believe that the attitude between the parent and the child <v Speaker>begins developing very early in the child's life. <v Speaker>You're a young child, even in the preschool age range can come home with questions <v Speaker>that the parents response can can be very important to a parent that <v Speaker>hears a child come in with a with an honest and simple minded question <v Speaker>and says, gee, that's something we don't talk about or gives the child the impression <v Speaker>that sex is somehow dirty or something that isn't discussed in the home. <v Speaker>Ladies, I think a groundwork for a series of very difficult situations with <v Speaker>a child doesn't feel free to discuss these matters with the parent. <v Speaker>So I think even at the very earliest level in the child's life, <v Speaker>the parent can begin expressing an openness toward sexual discussions <v Speaker>that carries through into the child's later life so that they can deal <v Speaker>with problems straightforwardly.

<v Speaker>And secondly, I think there's there's no indication that the offering of <v Speaker>sound information is in any way an encouragement of <v Speaker>any kind of sexual crimes. <v Speaker>Do you agree with that? I think if the parent shows a certain willingness to <v Speaker>discuss things openly and fairly with the child and not intimidate the child, <v Speaker>the child will respect the parents opinion much more than if the child is simply <v Speaker>forbidden without basic understanding and knowledge to engage in certain activities. <v Speaker>Sexuality is part of our lives begins from the crib. <v Speaker>It doesn't have to necessarily lead to sexual intercourse at an early age, but it can <v Speaker>because of many of the frustrations and the rebellious attitudes of some of the <v Speaker>younger children. And if you have a greater understanding and openness that was presented <v Speaker>in the home where things could be worked out and discussed prior to the actual <v Speaker>adventure, certain things might change. <v Speaker>And at least the child would feel that there was a place somewhere to turn <v Speaker>to for a discussion before they finally made any decision and didn't have to fear that

<v Speaker>they were forced into a decision. Maybe on the basis of pressure from a boyfriend where <v Speaker>they had no one else to turn to to discuss. <v Speaker>And we see love and warmth, and consequently the whole matter of birth control <v Speaker>becomes one of after the fact. <v Speaker>The patients I see in the office who request birth control, the young ones in particular, <v Speaker>have already had intercourse many times. <v Speaker>They don't come in often for birth control until they've been frightened by the first <v Speaker>late period or until they're already pregnant and it's too late. <v Speaker>But the thing that baffles me is the intolerance of society towards <v Speaker>somebody who's been raped. I mean, how many times do you hear it say, oh, well, she <v Speaker>must've provoked him. She must have enticed him in some way. <v Speaker>You know that by denying the fact that rape has ensued. <v Speaker>How do you account for this? <v Speaker>Well, it's a number one fact in today's society that <v Speaker>rape is really the victimless crime, that the it's always <v Speaker>the alleged victim you see in the quotation marks, which

<v Speaker>isn't so joking. <v Speaker>It's really true that it's where in society and society in America, <v Speaker>you have to be proven guilty to be convicted <v Speaker>for the crime. A woman says that she's been raped. <v Speaker>And if for one small reason, she might have known the person or have seen <v Speaker>the man in her neighborhood or any kind of recognition of the man, <v Speaker>it's almost against the out of the books. <v Speaker>You can't convict that man because there must be some sort of collusion going <v Speaker>on between the two of them. And the woman is trying to get back at the man for some <v Speaker>reason or another, like a spiteful date situation. <v Speaker>And I wouldn't get that man and sic the police on him. <v Speaker>But that's. <v Speaker>So I use rape. Why wouldn't she use burglary or any other <v Speaker>crime? I mean, why would she? Why would she use rape? <v Speaker>Well, I don't believe that she would necessarily.

<v Speaker>But why do the law enforcers believe that? <v Speaker>I mean, the one applies to rape, whereas it doesn't apply to others. <v Speaker>I think there's the idea that somehow men, men are allowed <v Speaker>allowed to have sexual feelings. <v Speaker>It's the women that are the ones that are much more in control of their sexuality. <v Speaker>So that that if a man does come on to a woman, somehow she has done something <v Speaker>to bring out his sexuality. <v Speaker>I mean, like it's a fact that that it's acceptable if a man is married to have affairs <v Speaker>outside of marriage where a wife it's considered you know, it's a very shocking <v Speaker>kind of thing. And I. And it's been built in so much that we're talk about it that <v Speaker>if a woman wears a short skirt and she gets raped, it's because she wore a short skirt. <v Speaker>Or if she inside. <v Speaker>If she looks directly at a married man walking down the street, it's almost the <v Speaker>idea that she must have given showed something at her face that registered a <v Speaker>come on him in some way, or he would not pursue her. <v Speaker>That's something that she and then it's something and many women believe this because <v Speaker>they've heard it so often that indeed, when they when they are raped, they think, my God,

<v Speaker>did I maybe I was doing something at the time. <v Speaker>And it's one of those kind of so unknown things because women kept it inside because <v Speaker>it was for a woman to be raped. <v Speaker>It was almost like a blot on her. Her morality, she was looked at <v Speaker>in question, in fact, was in the paper. They'll keep the name out because of the stigma <v Speaker>of what it means to be rape, not the rapist. <v Speaker>They may be in it is not as awful as being the person that has been raped because she's <v Speaker>looked at to blame it. So she keeps it inside as generally secret. <v Speaker>She doesn't even tell her friend. So as you go through life thinking about maybe I did do <v Speaker>something, how do I know if I didn't? <v Speaker>This is your latest book, isn't that a teenager's Guide to Life and Love? <v Speaker>Right. <v Speaker>I'm always a little defensive when I see it because it's an extraordinarily conservative <v Speaker>book. <v Speaker>People think because I'm a radical politically, that everything I do should be equally <v Speaker>radical. And this is, I think to many teenagers, a very old fashioned

<v Speaker>dis seeming book. <v Speaker>And it shocks some of my more radical friends that I was responsible for. <v Speaker>I try to defend myself by saying bad teenagers <v Speaker>don't need a book. They find out about life for themselves. <v Speaker>They're not particularly troubled by life. <v Speaker>It's the ones who've been brought up very strictly with all the inhibitions. <v Speaker>The way I was brought up who are troubled by adolescence, the conflicting feelings, <v Speaker>what's going on in me? Is it bad or is it all right? <v Speaker>The book was really written for strictly brought up teenagers to try to explain <v Speaker>why they have these contradictions and anxieties. <v Speaker>Do you feel a special sort of responsibility as a baby doctor towards this generation <v Speaker>that you help careful by your book? <v Speaker>Oh, I do. When I think that that's part of what got me into the opposition in the war in <v Speaker>Vietnam. The fact that these really were the children brought <v Speaker>up, according to my book, at least according to their parents.

<v Speaker>I think that the people who approved of my opposition to the war in Vietnam <v Speaker>and other political crusades, they saw that. <v Speaker>They said, I can see that you're still interested in that with young people and don't <v Speaker>want them to be killed in a horrible, brutal, unjust <v Speaker>war. But the people who disagree with my politics, of course, <v Speaker>didn't see it that way all. <v Speaker>What do you think the Abbie Hoffman said today? <v Speaker>Our typical byproduct of your demand feeding type permissiveness? <v Speaker>No, I don't think that the kind of philosophy that I advocated has made that much <v Speaker>difference in the character of young people. <v Speaker>I think Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, they're a very special, unusual <v Speaker>type of person. <v Speaker>I I think that a lot of people, especially those who don't <v Speaker>like the more liberal and radical youths, assume that I created them with the advice <v Speaker>and baby and child care. But they forget that all the conservative young people nowadays <v Speaker>were raised by my book, too. In other words, any parent who used a book for practical

<v Speaker>purposes was using my book. So it obviously the book, if it has anything to <v Speaker>do with producing types, it produces conservatives, moderates and radicals. <v Speaker>I think I think we'd be foolish to pretend that communication is easy <v Speaker>between teenagers and their parents. I think that the very nature of our species says <v Speaker>there are going to be tensions and differences. <v Speaker>If everything were easy and beautiful between parents and teenagers, teenagers <v Speaker>would never leave home. It would be much better to stay there with mumsie and dads <v Speaker>and earn the money and provide the security. <v Speaker>Part of why you grow up and get impatient and go off to live your own life is because <v Speaker>underneath you don't want to stay under their domination. <v Speaker>So I think biologically it's bound to be difficult, difficult <v Speaker>at times. I think in some families it's difficult at times constant wrangling <v Speaker>and in others it's surprisingly calm. <v Speaker>But even in those families where it's very calm, I'm sure there are tensions underneath.

<v Speaker>This brings me to another question, that of independence. <v Speaker>This is a problematical one, too, sometimes because most teenage teenagers seem to crave <v Speaker>autonomy. Now, where should you draw the line here without abdicating parental <v Speaker>responsibility? <v Speaker>But I think that teenagers want to hear what their parents views <v Speaker>are, even though they don't really react, though. <v Speaker>They're not willing to admit it. No teenager says, I'm very glad to have heard <v Speaker>your opinion. <v Speaker>Not. When you're fighting to be grown up and to be independent, you can't concede too <v Speaker>much. But I think that underneath they want to hear what their parents say. <v Speaker>So I think parents should be very frank in expressing their views, <v Speaker>not with the idea. These are better views because I'm a parent and because I'm an <v Speaker>older, I'm older. But because as a person, this has been my experience in life and <v Speaker>I care about you and I want you to hear about. But I got off the track. <v Speaker>And, you know, that's that's basically on the track. <v Speaker>Do you think parents overreact sometimes because they're teenagers are getting away with

<v Speaker>things that they didn't get away with in their days, that not only that they're getting <v Speaker>away with things that the parents did didn't get away with. <v Speaker>But even if the customs were just the same. <v Speaker>Older people are envious of you. <v Speaker>Exactly. Anybody would like to be young again and starting over. <v Speaker>And I think that's part of the grittiness of parents. <v Speaker>What would your advice be to parents who discover that their son or daughter is smoking <v Speaker>marijuana? <v Speaker>I would assume I would tell them to assume their children are normal. <v Speaker>It's not that I advocate smoking marijuana, but certainly this is the custom. <v Speaker>I've read very carefully reports for three government commissions since 1936, <v Speaker>none of which have been able to come up with any evidence that marijuana smoking is <v Speaker>permanently harmful in any way. <v Speaker>So that certainly isn't nearly as harmful as tobacco <v Speaker>or alcohol. Alcoholic drinks, we know that those kill hundreds of thousands <v Speaker>of people. So it's a relatively harmless drug

<v Speaker>and it is the custom. When I was in college, the custom was to get drunk among <v Speaker>a certain number of my pals. <v Speaker>And I wouldn't I wouldn't advocate that either. <v Speaker>And I wouldn't. I think if we had a really good society and everybody had a good life, <v Speaker>people wouldn't need to knock themselves out with booze or marijuana or anything else. <v Speaker>I think it's just foolish for parents to come or the authorities to become hysterical <v Speaker>about marijuana. That's a really surprisingly undangerous <v Speaker>drug. <v Speaker>I got a small bone to pick with you. <v Speaker>In a teenager's guide to life and love. You say the more spiritual qualities of love are <v Speaker>almost exclusively the monopoly of girls who are admonished to resist the advances <v Speaker>of males in whom physical sexuality is generally more insistent, less <v Speaker>tightly tied to tender and romantic spiritual side of love. <v Speaker>Now, how are we to get rid of the double standard? <v Speaker>So long as boys are given advice like that by such enlightened doctors as you? <v Speaker>Now you weren't quoting me word for word, were you? That's a, a summary because it

<v Speaker>sounded a little, little more pompous than I would have said. <v Speaker>I think this is an example of perhaps of where I'm a little old fashioned <v Speaker>because I think in previous decades it has been assumed that men <v Speaker>were more aggressive sexually. <v Speaker>I'm willing to concede now that that I don't mean that I'm noble to do so. <v Speaker>I just admit that that could have been a preconception because <v Speaker>it was accepted that that was the way men were to be more aggressive. <v Speaker>Certainly what's happened in the last 10 or 15 years that <v Speaker>girls and women have become a lot more aggressive sexually. <v Speaker>One of the places that I got that from was the Kinsey Reports, which, of course, were... <v Speaker>The material was gathered 25, 30 years ago. <v Speaker>They said one of the most startling conclusions that they came to <v Speaker>when they came to write the book on sexuality and women is how <v Speaker>women seem to be able to accept

<v Speaker>women who are who were either had been maiden ladies all along <v Speaker>or women who had been divorced. Um, women who had been widowed seemed <v Speaker>without great tension to be able to get along without sex the rest of their life. <v Speaker>Whereas it's it's always been. <v Speaker>And men twenty five years ago told the Kinsey people, if they <v Speaker>were honest, that they were sort of on the prowl. <v Speaker>Maybe they didn't do anything, but they were thinking about sex a great deal of the time. <v Speaker>So I think I got it from such sources as that, which was not just opinion, <v Speaker>but it may well have been biased by preconceptions. <v Speaker>Dr. Spock, time has absolutely whizzed by. <v Speaker>Thank you very, very much. A very interesting, informative talk. <v Speaker>Thank you. Good night from women. See you again next week.