The Mayoral Debates

<v announcer>WXXI and the Chamber of Commerce extend special thanks to the following companies for <v announcer>their invaluable support with a 1993 Democratic primary mayoral debate series, <v announcer>Bausch and Lomb, Chase Bank. <v announcer>Eastman Kodak Company. <v announcer>The Gleason Memorial Fund. <v announcer>Rochester Telephone Corporation. <v announcer>Xerox Corporation. <v reporter>The Rochester school district's budget is larger than the rest of the city budget, if <v reporter>for this and no other reason, education looms as one of the biggest single issues <v reporter>facing the new mayor of Rochester. <v reporter>Outgoing Mayor Tom Ryan has repeatedly called for spending restraint in the Rochester <v reporter>City School District. During an appearance on WXXI reports, the mayor <v reporter>went so far as to voice support for an appointed school board to replace the existing <v reporter>elected system. It's the existing school board that oversaw a series of reforms <v reporter>enacted during the past six years, and those reforms were supposed to bring about

<v reporter>noticeable gains in academic achievement, including higher test scores. <v reporter>But as a whole, the higher scores never came. <v reporter>According to the state's most recent report on schools, the Rochester School District has <v reporter>failed to meet most of the goals set in 1987, when reforms were originally put <v reporter>into place. Twenty four district schools have been named on the school's to watch <v reporter>list, and two district schools are on the state's list of schools under <v reporter>registration review, or as some call it the list of schools in trouble. <v reporter>Citing lackluster performance, groups like the District Parent Council are <v reporter>calling for more accountability. <v reporter>And some taxpayers wonder why the cost per student in Rochester is thousands more <v reporter>than similar areas like Syracuse and Buffalo. <v reporter>Add to this mix a rift between Rochester Teachers Association President Adam Urbanski <v reporter>and school superintendent Manny Rivera. <v reporter>Neither see eye to eye on a number of issues, including teacher pay, teacher <v reporter>accountability and the salaries of central office staff.

<v reporter>During a recent appearance on WXXI reports, Urbanski premiered a new proposal <v reporter>which would dramatically overhaul the current system. <v reporter>In essence, his plan would allow public school choice for parents and competition <v reporter>between city schools. But the proposal is still fresh, and any new plans <v reporter>to reform the system will probably meet a tough audience in the form of city taxpayers <v reporter>who've already gone through a number of reforms and have few tangible results to show for <v reporter>it. <v announcer>Live from the auditorium of Nazareth Academy, the 3rd Democratic primary mayoral debate. <v announcer>And now here is your moderator, Gary Walker. <v Gary Walker>Good evening. I'm Gary Walker of WXXI Reports, a news director of WXXI TV. <v Gary Walker>Welcome to those of you listening to us on our sister station, WXXI. <v Gary Walker>AM 13 70. Again, we extend our thanks to the Greater Rochester Metro Chamber <v Gary Walker>of Commerce for making these debates possible.

<v Gary Walker>The promotion research and some of the questions you'll hear tonight are a joint effort <v Gary Walker>by WXXI and get Rochester newspapers. <v Gary Walker>As in the past two debates, we invite you to keep score at home with the debate companion <v Gary Walker>cards published in the Democrat and Chronicle. <v Gary Walker>And now the candidates and the Democratic mayoral primary are Karen Noble Hansen, <v Gary Walker>Bill Johnson, Kevin Murray, <v Gary Walker>Nancy Padia, John Erbe and <v Gary Walker>Ruth Scott. As in the last two nights, we have a three part format. <v Gary Walker>The first segment consists of questions from the moderator on tonight's subject, which is <v Gary Walker>schools and education. We are trying to ask a specific questions as possible <v Gary Walker>to get his specific answers as possible. <v Gary Walker>The moderator reserves the right to clarify his questions. <v Gary Walker>The question of rotation has been determined by a lottery. <v Gary Walker>And we begin with Karen Noble Hanson. <v Gary Walker>Karen, I believe that all the candidates here tonight are in favor of consolidating some <v Gary Walker>city and school board functions to cut costs.

<v Gary Walker>And any savings, of course, are good. <v Gary Walker>But the school district's budget isn't a three hundred million dollar per year range, and <v Gary Walker>it's larger than the rest of the city's budget combined. <v Gary Walker>Aside from Consolidation's, what other specific things would you do as mayor <v Gary Walker>to reduce and control school spending? <v Karen Noble Hanson>Well, one of the factors that has been in place is a five percent cap on <v Karen Noble Hanson>district spending. And we have been often asked whether or not we <v Karen Noble Hanson>would want to see relief to that. <v Karen Noble Hanson>And I think we do have to hold the line on spending. <v Karen Noble Hanson>I honestly have not identified other specific cost savings because I <v Karen Noble Hanson>think the magnitude of the problem before us in terms of educating <v Karen Noble Hanson>our children is very significant. And I think this community has to <v Karen Noble Hanson>make a decision that we are going to educate our children, period, that whatever <v Karen Noble Hanson>the cost is to really educate children is what we need to be about. <v Karen Noble Hanson>So I've talked more in terms of how to make sure that we're getting the most <v Karen Noble Hanson>for the dollars that we're spending.

<v Karen Noble Hanson>And I realize that is difficult for taxpayers and the community at large <v Karen Noble Hanson>to necessarily agree with or understand. <v Karen Noble Hanson>But we are not doing the job of education for our kids today. <v Karen Noble Hanson>We need desperately to make sure that every school in Rochester is of the same quality <v Karen Noble Hanson>so that where we have a good program in School 12 or the Flower City School or other <v Karen Noble Hanson>programs within the city, that every school has it. <v Karen Noble Hanson>So when a family makes a choice, they really get the best education. <v Karen Noble Hanson>We need to be about the problem of having adequate librarians and adequate school <v Karen Noble Hanson>books. So when I talk about cutting budgets within the city, I <v Karen Noble Hanson>really do talk about cutting else- elsewhere and not within the city school district <v Karen Noble Hanson>itself. This is not there is no magic to this to say you're going to cut six percent <v Karen Noble Hanson>or seven percent across the board. <v Karen Noble Hanson>I think is is really doing a disservice to this city. <v Karen Noble Hanson>I think we need to get into office, see how we are using our our <v Karen Noble Hanson>finances effectively, and then deal with the question of cutting at that point. <v Gary Walker>Question of reducing school spending other than consolidation.

<v Gary Walker>Mr. Johnson, you have one minute to rebut. <v Bill Johnson>I think, Karen, that there are specific ways to reduce <v Bill Johnson>school spending. One only needs to look at the school district's budget. <v Bill Johnson>That was recently submitted and you will find, I think, many, many <v Bill Johnson>opportunities for reducing school costs without <v Bill Johnson>affecting instructional cost. <v Bill Johnson>It is clear that it requires less than three hundred million dollars <v Bill Johnson>of the school districts. Three hundred and fifty million dollar budget to <v Bill Johnson>educate our children. <v Bill Johnson>And I have set forth a clear plan that suggests that within that 50 <v Bill Johnson>to 60 thousand dollar a million dollar range, there ought to be opportunities <v Bill Johnson>for reducing cost. Now, the other thing, though, I think we need to face is this. <v Gary Walker>Ten seconds. <v Bill Johnson>The only way you can reduce costs is to reduce personnel in a district where there <v Bill Johnson>is 75 percent of his budget is to personnel.

<v Bill Johnson>And that is a bullet that has not been bitten by the school district. <v Gary Walker>And that is time the subject's schools spending reductions without other than <v Gary Walker>consolidation. And we're open to three minute open rebuttal. <v Ruth Scott>I think it's very important as we take a look at the issue of costs, that first we look <v Ruth Scott>at the issue of accountability. <v Ruth Scott>I believe that is very important in our schools, that we have accountability, that the <v Ruth Scott>children are learning effectively. <v Ruth Scott>And so any kind of cuts that we make have to be looked at in terms of how they affect <v Ruth Scott>accountability and how they affect the classroom, which is where the children are. <v Ruth Scott>So many times when people talk about cutting, they take what is called a meat ax <v Ruth Scott>approach. They say, OK, you can cut out the administrators, you can cut out this group <v Ruth Scott>and cut out that group. But they never look to see what effect that's going to have on <v Ruth Scott>the children, nor do they look to see what effect that has on matching dollars that come <v Ruth Scott>from the state and federal government. Well, I would like to see happen. <v Ruth Scott>Is it the state instead of giving us such categorical aid, give us a block grant <v Ruth Scott>for schools and the amount of money that they would give and let the schools use it in <v Ruth Scott>the best way they know how that way.

<v Ruth Scott>A lot of costs could be cut out that are now built in, because every time there's a new <v Ruth Scott>program, every time there's a state aid formula, people have to try to meet that. <v Ruth Scott>And when they try to meet that, what they do is add personnel. <v Ruth Scott>And it really doesn't make any sense. <v different speaker>The state control put out a report-. <v Nancy Padilla>Blue ribbon task force, released a report <v Nancy Padilla>that. Accomplished specific object objectives. <v Nancy Padilla>The report was comprehensive. It looked at issues such as leadership in the school's <v Nancy Padilla>financial management support services provided to the students, <v Nancy Padilla>transportation services that are provided by the city school district and <v Nancy Padilla>various other elements of the management structure of the city school district. <v Nancy Padilla>They did, in fact, make some very specific recommendations at the city school <v Nancy Padilla>district. Consider looking at contracting out <v Nancy Padilla>printing services that they study their policy. <v Nancy Padilla>The transportation of city school district students.

<v Nancy Padilla>More than 25000 students are being transported on <v Nancy Padilla>a daily basis. That we review our- our involvement in the <v Nancy Padilla>in the urban suburban program and a number of other recommendations. <v Nancy Padilla>So I think that I would agree that the number one priority <v Nancy Padilla>is the education of children and accountability of all employees <v Nancy Padilla>in the city school district. But there are always ways to be more effective and <v Nancy Padilla>efficient. And on the issue of finances. <v Kevin Murray>Recently, the controller put out a report and that report showed that Rochester <v Kevin Murray>had more central administration personnel and costs than any of <v Kevin Murray>the other districts throughout our state. <v Kevin Murray>Now, there's been some talk that there were flaws in that report, and that may very well <v Kevin Murray>be, but there's no doubt that a good close analysis of all the personnel <v Kevin Murray>would give us a large number of reductions that we could make in that central office. <v Kevin Murray>There's no reason why Rochester has to have a central office budget. <v Kevin Murray>That's twice that of comparable districts.

<v Gary Walker>And that is our time. Our next question goes to Kevin Murray. <v Gary Walker>Mr. Murray, you've made it a frequent campaign theme that you send your children to <v Gary Walker>public schools. That's true. <v Gary Walker>But in fact, this year you had all three of your children, the World of Inquiry School, a <v Gary Walker>high performing special school that is so sought after, the parents used to put their <v Gary Walker>children's name on the waiting list at birth. <v Gary Walker>As the school chooses its students by lottery, by all standards, it's not your <v Gary Walker>typical city school. Can you honestly recommend to other parents to send their children <v Gary Walker>to city schools if they're not lucky enough to be chosen for a magnet school like World <v Gary Walker>of Inquiry? <v Kevin Murray>I put my oldest son on the waiting list for the world of inquiry when he was born <v Kevin Murray>and in fact, he didn't get it. We went to 12 school for three years and we were very <v Kevin Murray>happy at 12 school. <v Kevin Murray>But then in the middle of the school year, we got a call that there was an opening at the <v Kevin Murray>world of inquiry. We went over, we met with the teachers, we met with the principal, <v Kevin Murray>and we met with some of the parents. And we felt it was a very good opportunity. <v Kevin Murray>My oldest son went there. My twins went there starting in first grade.

<v Kevin Murray>They also went to 12 school and kindergarten. <v Kevin Murray>We think they're getting a very good education there and we're very pleased. <v Kevin Murray>My oldest son went through Monroe Middle School next week, and as <v Kevin Murray>a parent, my wife and I were both very concerned with the safety of my child, <v Kevin Murray>as I'm sure every parent is concerned with the safety of their children. <v Kevin Murray>There are things that we can do. <v Kevin Murray>As mayor, I'm gonna make sure we have youth officers working in and around our schools. <v Kevin Murray>They'll get to know who belongs on school property and who doesn't. <v Kevin Murray>They'll get a relationship with the students that will be proactive and will avoid <v Kevin Murray>some of the violence. We can have innovative use of PAC PAC so that our students <v Kevin Murray>are going to and from school. <v Kevin Murray>We have a visible presence of PAC PAC officers there. <v Kevin Murray>These things will help reduce the violence. <v Kevin Murray>That's a problem, a perceived problem and a real problem if we can reduce that <v Kevin Murray>violence. We can make our schools do the things that the school reform <v Kevin Murray>has promised. City schools have some of the best programs in the entire county.

<v Kevin Murray>Too often people highlight the negatives and they exist and we have to take care <v Kevin Murray>of them. But there are great things happening in our city schools. <v Kevin Murray>There are children graduating from our city schools, going to Harvard and Yale <v Kevin Murray>and the best schools in this country. We need to make more schools work as well as some <v Kevin Murray>of the better ones. But we also have to emphasize the positive as well as <v Kevin Murray>the negative. <v Gary Walker>Nancy Padilla, you have one minute. <v Nancy Padilla>The city school district has a number of quality programs that are offered to students <v Nancy Padilla>in the district. When I served on the school board and I served for eight years, <v Nancy Padilla>I was very concerned about the inequities that exist within the city's school district. <v Nancy Padilla>And I was a strong advocate for ensuring that resources were <v Nancy Padilla>allocated to all the schools. <v Nancy Padilla>I think it's important that we recognize that as we talk about the issue of choice, <v Nancy Padilla>that we understand that choice is may not be the most <v Nancy Padilla>feasible position to take if, in fact, we cannot assure

<v Nancy Padilla>that all students have access to the quality programs that are offered in some <v Nancy Padilla>of the schools. It is the goal of the city's school district board of education <v Nancy Padilla>and the employees and those of us who served in the district to ensure that <v Nancy Padilla>every child has a quality education. <v Gary Walker>OK. The question was, can you recommend other city schools other than the high performing <v Gary Walker>specialty magnet type schools? We have three minutes open debate. <v Gary Walker>Let's go. <v Bill Johnson>Now, This school district has always been able to attract <v Bill Johnson>the children of people like Kevin Murray and Bill Johnson. <v Bill Johnson>That is not the issue. And that is why Kevin is so static about the schools, <v Bill Johnson>because he can get special at school like the world of inquiry. <v Bill Johnson>There are people who would die to have their children in those schools, but yet they must <v Bill Johnson>send their children to schools where, while they have tremendously dedicated <v Bill Johnson>staff. They are short of resources. <v Bill Johnson>They are in old buildings, they are deb-. <v Bill Johnson>They have decrepit facilities. <v Bill Johnson>And you and others continue.

<v Bill Johnson>And you and the people who can constitute the majority faction of the school <v Bill Johnson>board. Your cronies have consistently <v Bill Johnson>refused to extend the reforms and the good things to <v Bill Johnson>all children in this district. <v Bill Johnson>And so, Kevin, I think what you what you should do as a public servant, you should send <v Bill Johnson>your. You should put your children on a bus and send them to number two school and number <v Bill Johnson>four school. And then you would get a full measure of what this district is like. <v Bill Johnson>That would that would demonstrate your commitment. <v John Erbe>You're absolutely right. There are pockets of excellent excellence in our school <v John Erbe>system. There are some schools that work very well. <v John Erbe>But look at these numbers. In nineteen eighty nine twenty, some twenty seven hundred <v John Erbe>students entered the ninth grade in the city of Rochester. <v John Erbe>And this year we graduated, I believe it's eight hundred and thirty four of those <v John Erbe>students were failing the majority of our students. <v John Erbe>And there's a lot of reasons for them. One was talked about a little earlier that too <v John Erbe>much of our resources are going into administration. <v John Erbe>We've had an increase in the last 10 years of a thousand positions in the city school

<v John Erbe>district. And yet I spoke last week to the principal of East High, and he told me <v John Erbe>that in the seven years he had been there, there has been a reduction in school based <v John Erbe>staff, for instance, counselors. <v John Erbe>Seven years ago, there were nine counselors. Today there's six counselors. <v John Erbe>There are no attendance teachers. We have to bring the resources back into the schools, <v John Erbe>into the classrooms where they can make a difference. <v John Erbe>And we have to replicate-. <v Gary Walker>one minute. <v John Erbe>-These pockets of excellence that we do have in all the schools. <v John Erbe>But it's going to take a real shake up to be able to do that. <v Karen Noble Hanson>I find it absolutely incredible that one person could get three children into <v Karen Noble Hanson>the world of inquiry school as I went around this city talking <v Karen Noble Hanson>to families. Street after street, they have told me that they could identify <v Karen Noble Hanson>those schools, that they would really want their children to go to, and they're five or <v Karen Noble Hanson>six really fine schools and there is wa- there are waiting lists. <v Karen Noble Hanson>The fact that one family does so well is really something that we need to ask <v Karen Noble Hanson>how this happens. How could this happen?

<v Kevin Murray>Let me answer it, because the school district policy is that if you knew how the school <v Kevin Murray>district worked, you'd understand the school district policy. <v Kevin Murray>If one sibling gets in, the others automatically get in. <v Kevin Murray>And that's true for every single student who gets into the world of inquiry or any other <v Kevin Murray>schools. If one child gets in automatically, the other gets in. <v Kevin Murray>That's the policy of the Rochester City School District. <v Kevin Murray>And those who have children in the schools know it. <v Gary Walker>Mr. Murray. That's time. Mr. Murray. That's that is time. <v Gary Walker>OK, we'll all have time for this later. <v Gary Walker>Question for Mr. Erbe, you are against an appointed school board saying that the <v Gary Walker>board must be more accountable to the voters and not less. <v Gary Walker>Then you say if you're elected mayor you would appoint a commissioner of education to <v Gary Walker>quote represent the interests of parents, students and taxpayers. <v Gary Walker>Isn't that what the elected school board is supposed to do? <v Gary Walker>Why create another position to duplicate what is supposed to be the school board's job? <v John Erbe>I'm going to create a commissioner in education so that we have accountability, the <v John Erbe>taxpayers, the teachers and the families of this community have accountability on the

<v John Erbe>critical issues facing our educational system today. <v John Erbe>And that's budget. Where's the money going? <v John Erbe>How is it being spent? It's performance. <v John Erbe>Why aren't we graduating more of our young people? <v John Erbe>Why aren't scores where they should be. <v John Erbe>And on discipline, we need a strict policy on discipline to end the violence <v John Erbe>in the schools. Too many young families are choosing to leave <v John Erbe>the city because of their concern for the safety of their young people in the- in <v John Erbe>city schools. And I've talked to many teachers who are also concerned about their own <v John Erbe>personal safety in city schools. <v John Erbe>We have to have daily accountability and ongoing working relationship <v John Erbe>with the school district to identify solutions to these problems. <v John Erbe>In the past, there's been concern raised only at budget time. <v John Erbe>There's usually arrows being shot back and forth between the school district <v John Erbe>and the city about budget concerns. <v John Erbe>We need to have an ongoing relationship at the commissioner level between <v John Erbe>city government and the school district so that we have accountability and appointed

<v John Erbe>school board. Doesn't make sense. We need more accountability between <v John Erbe>the parents, the teachers, the families, the taxpayers of the school of this city <v John Erbe>and their school district. Taking that away from the taxpayers doesn't <v John Erbe>solve any problems. I would be in favor of looking at maybe a nonpartizan <v John Erbe>school board, a school board that was elected at a different time than regular. <v John Erbe>The regular elections are so that we could have more of a focus. <v John Erbe>I would be in favor, if possible, if we had state enabling legislation to have a school <v John Erbe>district budget submitted directly to the taxpayers. <v John Erbe>These are things we can look at, but for now, we need a commissioner in education that <v John Erbe>calls for and represents the mayor in negotiations with the city school district. <v Gary Walker>And that is time, [others start talking] that is time. And now Ruth Scott has a minute. <v Ruth Scott>Thank you. I really don't feel that you need to have a commissioner of education. <v Ruth Scott>I as a person who is very conversant with schools, I am qualified up through <v Ruth Scott>the superintendency level. I've worked in schools all my life, I've had experiences <v Ruth Scott>around the country and working with people and in cities like Boston and Seattle, where

<v Ruth Scott>the mayor has called into accountability the school district, without having this <v Ruth Scott>commissioner, that's worked better because we don't need another person between the <v Ruth Scott>citizens of our community and the mayor. <v Ruth Scott>I think the mayor needs to take on some of these roles. <v Ruth Scott>I think people can do a lot of sort of going back and forth in terms of the numbers, <v Ruth Scott>as we do now with the finance department and the school district. <v Ruth Scott>But when it comes to policy that comes to the issues that the parents are worried about, <v Ruth Scott>I think the mayor has to have that relationship with the superintendent. <v different speaker>I think-. <v Gary Walker>And Well, let's please the question was Mr. Erbe's <v Gary Walker>proposal for commissioner as opposed to the elected school board or appointed school <v Gary Walker>board? Now, let's have an open talk. <v Kevin Murray>One thing that we can look at is we need to have more oversight of the administration <v Kevin Murray>as school board. We can have our Budget Office looking at monthly key indicators <v Kevin Murray>so that we know what's happening in the school district. <v Kevin Murray>If there's cost overruns or there's revenue problems, we'll know them immediately <v Kevin Murray>and we'll be able to take corrective action.

<v Kevin Murray>We'll know what the situation is so we don't get surprises. <v Kevin Murray>These are things that consolidation of services will help. <v Kevin Murray>In addition to saving money by reducing the bureaucracy, consolidating services <v Kevin Murray>also gives the city government for the first time knowledge of what's going on <v Kevin Murray>within the school district. And without that knowledge, it's very hard to make <v Kevin Murray>intelligent decisions on budgeting that you can remove this or you can cut this or you <v Kevin Murray>need to increase that. What you need to do is have good information. <v Kevin Murray>If we consolidate services, we'll get that good in information. <v Kevin Murray>If we have proper oversight and get key indicators of the budget on a monthly basis, <v Kevin Murray>we'll know what's going on. And only then can we make intelligent decisions. <v Kevin Murray>Otherwise, we will be using a meat ax because we really won't know what we're doing. <v Kevin Murray>We have to use a scalpel. We have to go in and cut out that which is not necessary. <v Kevin Murray>And the only way we can do it is to get good information. <v Bill Johnson>The problem with uh- the problem with a commissioner of education as well as the deputy <v Bill Johnson>mayor for education, which Karen has proposed suggest

<v Bill Johnson>a little too much interference in the day to day affairs of the school district. <v Bill Johnson>I have pro- propose another approach which really focuses on <v Bill Johnson>the budget. I think that the mayor and the city council have not exercise fully <v Bill Johnson>that oversight control over the school district budget. <v Bill Johnson>But I don't think we ought to be interfering in the day to day operations of the school <v Bill Johnson>district. And I just can't conceive of how a commissioner of education would not be <v Bill Johnson>construed as on an equal basis with the superintendent of schools. <v Bill Johnson>I think we've got to keep that line very, very, very clear. <v Bill Johnson>And I think there are controls. <v Bill Johnson>Kevin began to outline some of those. And I think the mayor and the city council can <v Bill Johnson>take-. <v Gary Walker>One minute. <v Bill Johnson>-to bring that school budget under control. That's what we ought to be concerned with. <v Speaker>[people talk over one another] <v Nancy Padilla>I think what this community needs is a long term commitment to education. <v Nancy Padilla>And we begin that commitment by allowing the members of this community to elect <v Nancy Padilla>the members of the Rochester Board of Education by allowing the parents and the <v Nancy Padilla>voters of this community to aggressively work to elect people that

<v Nancy Padilla>are committed, that are qualified and that are going to fight hard for the children <v Nancy Padilla>of this community. I think what we need-. <v Gary Walker>30 seconds <v Nancy Padilla>-Is a policy of effective communication among leaders, leaders of <v Nancy Padilla>city council of the mayors office, school board and other leaders of this community. <v Nancy Padilla>We have to build partnerships around education. <v Nancy Padilla>We have to enhance partnerships that include community, parents, business <v Nancy Padilla>and a number of other people. <v Gary Walker>10 seconds <v Nancy Padilla>who are going to move the education reform agenda forward. <v Gary Walker>And that is our time. Next question is for Ruth Scott. <v Gary Walker>Ruth in the city of Buffalo, the school district must go for budget approval to the city <v Gary Walker>council and the mayor. Unlike the fiscal independence the school district enjoys in <v Gary Walker>Rochester, the result in Buffalo has been a yearly ugly budget squabble <v Gary Walker>and frequent lawsuits. However, Buffalo taxpayers get about the same <v Gary Walker>results as Rochester for about two thousand dollars less per pupil. <v Gary Walker>Is it time to do away with the revenue allocation formula and treat the school district's <v Gary Walker>budget like any other city department budget?

<v Ruth Scott>Well, I think the whole issue of what the budget should be like is something <v Ruth Scott>that we do need to look at and decide what it's going to be. <v Ruth Scott>I know that the current allocation formula is something that will be up for grabs in <v Ruth Scott>terms of the new administration, because that administration has to determine how it is <v Ruth Scott>going to actually look at it. I believe, though, that performance indicators <v Ruth Scott>is what we ought to be looking at and not just the dollars. <v Ruth Scott>I don't know. And I don't think anybody knows how much it costs to educate children <v Ruth Scott>in the city school district. I think that's part of our problem is we do not have that <v Ruth Scott>information. I do need to to say, though, that one of the things that we <v Ruth Scott>have tried to do over time is to make sure that the school district began to share <v Ruth Scott>that information with the city. <v Ruth Scott>And when I was a city Council finance chair, I insisted that they come over and present <v Ruth Scott>the budget long before that, all they ever did was just just hand you the budget. <v Ruth Scott>And we had no hearing until the public hearing and we had to vote on the budget. <v Ruth Scott>And I instituted a system of looking at it. <v Ruth Scott>I think that certainly if other districts are doing a better job with less money, it's

<v Ruth Scott>something that we need to look at. But in the long run, we need to make sure that <v Ruth Scott>children are being served no matter what decisions we make about the funding. <v Gary Walker>Mr. Erbe you have one minute. <v John Erbe>We have to realize that we do have limited resources. <v John Erbe>There are not unlimited funds anymore, either from the federal, state or local taxpayers. <v John Erbe>There is a commitment in this community to having an educational system that works. <v John Erbe>We need accountability from the school district to the taxpayers and to the city <v John Erbe>government, which raises the revenues for the school district. <v John Erbe>That's why a commissioner in education makes a lot of sense. <v John Erbe>You have someone who has a background in education and finance who can have a year round <v John Erbe>dialog with the school district, because we've seen too often here in the city of <v John Erbe>Rochester where the budget issues just get focused at budget time. <v John Erbe>We have to have a better understanding of limited resources and how we can work together <v John Erbe>to make those resources go further. <v John Erbe>Consolidation of services have been talked about endlessly in this community. <v John Erbe>Let's just do it. Combine the law department, purchasing personnel, payroll. <v John Erbe>We can save money. It takes a day to day working relationships with the

<v John Erbe>school district in order to accomplish that and to have real accountability, not just <v John Erbe>fights at budget time. <v Gary Walker>OK. The question was how we should handle budgeting. <v Gary Walker>Should it be the fiscal independence agreement or budgeting with more oversight from the <v Gary Walker>mayor and the city council? We have three minutes let's go. <v Bill Johnson>I've already said that the mayor and the city council must have more oversight. <v Bill Johnson>And that means that I think the fiscal independence agreement has to be <v Bill Johnson>scrutinized. If not if not scuttle. <v Bill Johnson>I think the problem with this school district is that they take the five percent <v Bill Johnson>not as a ceiling, but as a floor. <v Bill Johnson>Every year, the school district budgets the full five percent of the property <v Bill Johnson>tax. They have been very successful, are going to Albany and get a <v Bill Johnson>tremendous increase in state aid. <v Bill Johnson>This budget has grown 77 percent over the last nine <v Bill Johnson>years. Contrast it to the city's growth of 27 percent, almost three times <v Bill Johnson>the growth. And that's because this school district has not had to show the kind of

<v Bill Johnson>prudence which is necessary in these times. <v Bill Johnson>I believe that they need to come in and justify their <v Bill Johnson>expenditures and they don't have to do it. Now, the review of the budget is almost <v Bill Johnson>automatic. They send it across through a few cursory questions to Mayne's as one <v Bill Johnson>who is really subjected that budget to tremendous analysis. <v Bill Johnson>But other than that, because people say, well, we are not elected as school commissioners <v Bill Johnson>and it is pass hands off. We've got to change that relationship. <v Bill Johnson>We need to do it now. <v Speaker>[people talking over one another] <v Kevin Murray>But I'm recommending that every two years we review the fiscal independence <v Kevin Murray>agreement. We look as to whether or not the sharing of revenues is appropriate. <v Kevin Murray>Is a city in the school district getting their proper share? <v Kevin Murray>That's the time once every two years when those decisions can be made. <v Kevin Murray>We can look at is the city getting more revenue from the state and federal government <v Kevin Murray>than they need in those years? Maybe the school districts getting less. <v Kevin Murray>But every two years you review it. <v Kevin Murray>Nothing can be put in place for ten or fifteen years. <v Kevin Murray>And that relationship still be appropriate over the long run.

<v Kevin Murray>We have to review it every two years and make sure whatever the relationship is <v Kevin Murray>is appropriate one. <v Speaker>[people talking over each other] <v Karen Noble Hanson>One of the reasons why I talked about the deputy director for education is exactly <v Karen Noble Hanson>the kind of things we're talking about. <v Karen Noble Hanson>It seems to me that the mayor's office doesn't need a deputy excuse me, deputy <v Karen Noble Hanson>mayor for rubber chicken dinner routes. <v Karen Noble Hanson>What we really need is somebody who is responsible for to help the mayor's office and <v Karen Noble Hanson>the city council make sure not only that oversight happens in a timely manner, <v Karen Noble Hanson>but besides, that helps to bring the private resources to the school district that they <v Karen Noble Hanson>themselves have not had time or the ability to do so, that we're we are dealing with the <v Karen Noble Hanson>federal government to bring Wyk and Headstart dollars to the table so that we have a <v Karen Noble Hanson>different approach with the county in terms of providing nurses and medical service. <v Karen Noble Hanson>And if we can't bring the county dollars into have the medical programs that we used to <v Karen Noble Hanson>have, deal with the health networks, deal with BlueCross BlueShield, have a health <v Karen Noble Hanson>response in the schools to bring privacy resources like the city has, like copiers <v Karen Noble Hanson>and computers from the private sector to the school, while we are also dealing

<v Karen Noble Hanson>with it with a financial oversight. <v Gary Walker>Ten seconds <v Karen Noble Hanson>That I think is terribly important. So I think the position is not wasted on this kind of <v Karen Noble Hanson>administration. <v Gary Walker>And that is time. Our next question is for Nancy Padilla. <v Gary Walker>Nancy, you sat on the school board for many years, as well as during the installation of <v Gary Walker>the reform agenda. Can you give us two specific things you personally <v Gary Walker>did while on the board that increased student performance? <v Gary Walker>And tell us how you measure that success. <v Nancy Padilla>There were several initiatives that I was involved in, specifically <v Nancy Padilla>policies. One was the division of the homework policy <v Nancy Padilla>and that policy called for the employees and students learning <v Nancy Padilla>that learning is a lifelong process. <v Nancy Padilla>And it also takes place outside of the classroom that could be measured <v Nancy Padilla>based on the activities that the students were involved in on a daily basis. <v Nancy Padilla>The chemical abuse policy, that called for

<v Nancy Padilla>students and parents to be informed of the <v Nancy Padilla>impact of chemical abuse on them and their and <v Nancy Padilla>the impact on student performance on a daily basis and what employees <v Nancy Padilla>needed to do to work with families and students to ensure <v Nancy Padilla>that they received services from the city school district. <v Nancy Padilla>The whole restructuring effort that took place in the city's school district called <v Nancy Padilla>for the identification of Cluster Systems home based guidance program <v Nancy Padilla>that called for teachers working more directly with students and parents <v Nancy Padilla>and ensuring that students and parents were understanding <v Nancy Padilla>the process in the classroom and contact was being made on a one <v Nancy Padilla>to one basis. <v Nancy Padilla>The MAP program, where a number of students <v Nancy Padilla>who were specifically the emphasis was-. <v Gary Walker>10 Seconds.

<v Nancy Padilla>-In languages, math, sciences and other areas. <v Nancy Padilla>The magnet programs were a good example of students making progress. <v Nancy Padilla>The School of the Arts, a number of the graduates of the city's school district have gone <v Nancy Padilla>on to college and are attending area universities and other universities <v Nancy Padilla>nationally. <v Gary Walker>OK, and that is time. And Mr. Murray, you have one minute. <v Kevin Murray>Well, certainly the area of substance abuse, that's an area where the mayor can <v Kevin Murray>be helpful to the schools. Again, I think youth officers working in and around <v Kevin Murray>our schools, getting to know our students can be helpful. <v Kevin Murray>It helps in many ways to have a better relationship if the police and students <v Kevin Murray>get to know each other, not when there's a crisis, but they get to know each other in <v Kevin Murray>their regular business of going to school. <v Kevin Murray>It also will help be helpful when there's a problem. <v Kevin Murray>If a youth officer can call out by name an individual that can diffuse <v Kevin Murray>a difficult situation, substance abuse, their programs. <v Kevin Murray>Those are areas where the city government can clearly work in cooperation <v Kevin Murray>with the school district to be helpful to both.

<v Kevin Murray>Those are things I think we have to work cooperatively with the school district where the <v Kevin Murray>city can help and the school district can help the city so everyone gains. <v Gary Walker>OK, the question was specific to Ms Padilla's uh time on the school board. <v Gary Walker>I think we can open up to the actual reform of the last six years, if you'd like to talk <v Gary Walker>about that. We have three minutes go. <v Ruth Scott>Well, the reform of the last six years has been a failure. <v Ruth Scott>I think everybody agrees with that. <v Ruth Scott>While we have some schools that are OK, there are many schools that are not great. <v Ruth Scott>And it is important that every child in this district have an opportunity to go <v Ruth Scott>to a great school. Not only that, it is absolutely necessary that those schools <v Ruth Scott>be void of violence. I think it's absolutely irresponsible that we have not <v Ruth Scott>come to find a way to get rid of violence in the schools, particularly in terms of the <v Ruth Scott>guns issue. I don't know why it took the district so long to discuss guns, should not <v Ruth Scott>have been discussed. The policy should have been very clear. <v Ruth Scott>They ought not to be any guns in school. <v Ruth Scott>When there are guns in school they are taken away. The police should be called. <v Ruth Scott>Whatever has to happen should happen at that point.

<v Ruth Scott>In addition to that, it's really important that when we measure the success of schools, <v Ruth Scott>it's not a measure of how cooperative we are or how helpful we are to students or <v Ruth Scott>teachers. The measure of the effectiveness of schools is what are your graduation <v Ruth Scott>rates? And ours are about 50 percent. <v Ruth Scott>What are the ways in which students get jobs when they get out of school? <v Ruth Scott>And ours- our placement rate is very dismal. <v Ruth Scott>There are a lot of things that can be done with the other agencies in our community to <v Ruth Scott>help in that. But we ought to be doing more with the Jobs to Work Career Path program <v Ruth Scott>that the state has identified in the East Harlem schools. <v Ruth Scott>Those schools were as bad as any school in this district for many, many years <v Ruth Scott>when the citizens of that community decided to come together around the issue of <v Ruth Scott>education and insist that their school district respond to <v Ruth Scott>the needs of its students. That is when change happen. <v Ruth Scott>And I believe as the mayor of this city, I have a responsibility to challenge <v Ruth Scott>the school board to make it happen. And if they don't make it happen, then I would <v Ruth Scott>exercise the oversight I have in terms of budget issues, in terms of where we go from

<v Ruth Scott>here, in terms of holding them to accountability. <v Speaker>[people talking over each other]. <v Ruth Scott>One of the dilemmas that we have, is that this community has taken a long time <v Ruth Scott>to recognize that our educational system was not working. <v Ruth Scott>And in the 1980s was the first 10 minutes community acknowledged that it was not <v Ruth Scott>working and that we needed major reforms. <v Ruth Scott>My understanding was that you were. You were an employee of the city's school district <v Ruth Scott>and I recognize that there are weaknesses in the system, but I think it's very <v Ruth Scott>important that we also recognize it. <v Ruth Scott>It took a lot of effort and energy to even convince other elected <v Ruth Scott>officials that we need a change in the educational system. <v Ruth Scott>It took a lot of effort to go out and lobby aggressively to bring in the resources-. <v Gary Walker>30 seconds. <v Ruth Scott>-and identify the issues to work with the issues, that- that had to be addressed. <v Ruth Scott>There are some serious problems still in this community that we must contend <v Ruth Scott>with, but I think it's irresponsible for us not to acknowledge that

<v Ruth Scott>change does not come overnight and that it needs. <v Ruth Scott>We need aggressive-. <v Gary Walker>10 seconds. <v Ruth Scott>-working together cooperatively to move this system. <v Ruth Scott>That's what change is about. <v Gary Walker>And that's time. <v Gary Walker>Our next question is for Bill Johnson. Mr. Johnson in July on WXXI <v Gary Walker>reports, which can be seen Friday nights at nine 30 and WXXI Channel 21. <v Gary Walker>I'm your host. <v Speaker>[laughter] <v Gary Walker>In July, on- on the program, Rochester Teachers Association President Adam Urbanski <v Gary Walker>unveiled a plan for public school choice, not private, but only public schools, <v Gary Walker>a free market system where public schools would compete for students. <v Gary Walker>Urbanski says schools and teachers competing to stay in business is the ultimate <v Gary Walker>accountability. Is this an idea worth pursuing? <v Gary Walker>Or are you wary of any union sponsored reform measure? <v Bill Johnson>We've learned to be wary of any union sponsored reform movement. <v Bill Johnson>But let me just say that I'm pleased Dr. Urbanski is moving in that direction <v Bill Johnson>for a number of months now. I have been publicly questioning

<v Bill Johnson>the need to examine the notion of choice and vouchers 10, 15 <v Bill Johnson>years ago. I would have been unalterably opposed to that notion because <v Bill Johnson>of the fear that poor children and minority children would be <v Bill Johnson>the losers in any kind of voucher or choice system. <v Bill Johnson>It is now clear to me that public schools must be subjected to competition. <v Bill Johnson>And the only way we're going to get that is by allowing parents <v Bill Johnson>more latitude in where their children can enroll in school, even if that means <v Bill Johnson>that those children should be enrolled in private and parochial schools. <v Bill Johnson>Now, I want to put some before I will commit myself unalterably <v Bill Johnson>to the notion of choice. I've got to be assured that discriminatory decisions <v Bill Johnson>are not going to be made. The thing that bothers me about private and parochial schools <v Bill Johnson>is they exercise absolute control over who they enroll <v Bill Johnson>and they abso- and they exercise absolute control over who they keep.

<v Bill Johnson>And the public schools do not have that kind of discretion. <v Bill Johnson>And so I think that what we must begin to do is to force competition. <v Bill Johnson>That is the only way the public schools are going to achieve the goals that they <v Bill Johnson>are set up to establish. And I would welcome Dr. Urbanski's <v Bill Johnson>genuine desire to foster real dialog <v Bill Johnson>around choice. <v Gary Walker>Rebuttal by Karen Noble Hansen. <v Karen Noble Hanson>My understanding of what Mr. Urbanski suggested really had to do with primarily <v Karen Noble Hanson>the public school system. And so I'm going to address that particular point now. <v Karen Noble Hanson>I think that it has merit in parents, as you said, Bill, really need to be <v Karen Noble Hanson>more involved and have a way to be involved with where the children are. <v Karen Noble Hanson>And for many parents who have two and three children in schools across the city. <v Karen Noble Hanson>No- no car and work during the day. <v Karen Noble Hanson>It is very difficult for those families to be involved in the school. <v Karen Noble Hanson>So we need to think differently about what we're doing.

<v Karen Noble Hanson>The difficulty I have is that while every parent can almost name <v Karen Noble Hanson>several schools that they would like their children to go into, there are not there is <v Karen Noble Hanson>not a quality, as you indicated earlier, among these schools throughout the city. <v Karen Noble Hanson>And I would want to know, number one, that the equality- that there is <v Karen Noble Hanson>equal education within these schools. And number two, that the kinds of policies we heard <v Karen Noble Hanson>earlier about being assured your children can all get into the world of inquiry school <v Karen Noble Hanson>or something is looked at again so that everybody has an opportunity. <v Gary Walker>And that is time. The subject is public school choice, as opposed by the union president, <v Gary Walker>Mr. Urbanski. We have three minutes. Go ahead. <v Ruth Scott>I believe that the whole public choice, public school choice issue is a very important <v Ruth Scott>one. But I also think in addition to that, whenever the fact arises <v Ruth Scott>that you have long waiting lists of children, you can lose a whole generation of kids <v Ruth Scott>before anybody does anything about it. So it seems to me that you ought to make more <v Ruth Scott>choices of those kinds of programs within your school system. <v Ruth Scott>I believe that choice in public schools ought to be extended, but it ought to be extended

<v Ruth Scott>not only across the public schools in this community. <v Ruth Scott>It ought to be extended so that you can go to any public school within this <v Ruth Scott>county, including BOCES, because I know that will upset everybody, <v Ruth Scott>but also upset the apple cart. <v Ruth Scott>But it's. Seems to me that if we can get more people engaged in this business of finding <v Ruth Scott>the schools that meet the needs of their children, we will have a better <v Ruth Scott>opportunity to make sure that the people in our community really learn and really are <v Ruth Scott>prepared for the 21st century. <v Speaker>[people talking over one another]. <v Gary Walker>Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. <v Bill Johnson>You got the last one. You got the last one. <v Bill Johnson>I want to make this point. We need to go farther in choice. <v Bill Johnson>In Minnesota and California there are there are proposals for <v Bill Johnson>what is called charter schools, which allow people to come in and <v Bill Johnson>essentially they are given the right to establish their own schools. <v Bill Johnson>They are given them the money from state aid to support those schools. <v Bill Johnson>And I think that we are beginning to hear a lot of concerns in our neighborhoods

<v Bill Johnson>about not just choice, but what is being taught in those schools and that the education <v Bill Johnson>that is being taught there is not necessarily <v Bill Johnson>conducive to the enrollments. I think that we have to- and I would welcome Dr. Urbanski <v Bill Johnson>to go farther and talk about total reform, greater control <v Bill Johnson>of the state, Education Department and unions over our schools so we can have true <v Bill Johnson>choice, true education for all of our children. <v Bill Johnson>Now, you can talk. <v Ruth Scott>One of the dilemmas I have about this choice issue is that <v Ruth Scott>we have to be honest. <v Ruth Scott>A number of years ago, we threw the choice issue. <v Ruth Scott>We told parents that they can have for a second or third choice. <v Ruth Scott>But the reality is that most parents do not get their first choice. <v Ruth Scott>They may end up with second or third because we have to ensure <v Ruth Scott>that because of the the diversity in the schools and <v Ruth Scott>the issue around racial diversity, that the racial makeup in the district complies <v Ruth Scott>with the state and the desegregation, the voluntarily desegregation

<v Ruth Scott>plan. So most of our children do not get their first choice. <v Ruth Scott>If we throw in other choice out there, I think we're misleading the parents. <v Ruth Scott>And I also believe it's important that we have to be assured in this community that all <v Ruth Scott>children, all the schools in this district are going to have the same quality <v Ruth Scott>services and resources that some schools have-. <v Gary Walker>Ten seconds. <v Ruth Scott>-At this time. And that's the issue that I would be I would need to be guaranteed on. <v Gary Walker>And that is segment one of our debate. <v Gary Walker>We now head into segment two and this segment candidates question each other on topics <v Gary Walker>I give them once they're given a topic area. <v Gary Walker>And it does not have to be about education. <v Gary Walker>The candidate may direct their question to any other candidate. <v Gary Walker>There will be a two minute response and the question to the question will be followed by <v Gary Walker>a one minute rebuttal by the person who asked the question. <v Gary Walker>We begin with Karen Hansen. Your topic tonight is race relations. <v Karen Noble Hanson>Kevin, I'd like to ask you a question in regard to race relations, I think all of

<v Karen Noble Hanson>us have heard throughout this community that there is a strong feeling <v Karen Noble Hanson>that people and in fact, truth that people are not part <v Karen Noble Hanson>of the power structure. <v Karen Noble Hanson>I'd like you to describe for us, if you would, how you will go about <v Karen Noble Hanson>identifying people who would be part of your administration and in fact, <v Karen Noble Hanson>tell us whether or not you have already chosen people who would be part <v Karen Noble Hanson>of your administration at this time? <v Gary Walker>As it relates to race relations? <v Karen Noble Hanson>That's right. As it relates to race relations. <v Kevin Murray>I put forward, I think it's just last night the criteria that I would use <v Kevin Murray>in terms of determining who would be hired or maintained in the first <v Kevin Murray>would be those that person support those items in the platform <v Kevin Murray>pertaining to the job that they would be looking at the platform that I have put forward. <v Kevin Murray>Do they support it? The second would be do they if their current employees. <v Kevin Murray>Do they now have the confidence of their own department?

<v Kevin Murray>The people who would work for them? And third, again, if they're employees right now, <v Kevin Murray>do they have the support of the community as a whole? <v Kevin Murray>That's the criteria for top appointments. <v Kevin Murray>What the goal is, is to make sure your overall hiring structure, not in any <v Kevin Murray>individual job, but your overall hiring structure. <v Kevin Murray>That mirrors the population of the city of Rochester. <v Kevin Murray>So the people, when they come into city hall, will feel comfortable and that the people <v Kevin Murray>they see will be the same basic people that they <v Kevin Murray>see in this community as a whole. <v Kevin Murray>We need to make sure that there is representation of all groups in the community. <v Kevin Murray>Male and female, African-American, Hispanic, white, etc. <v Kevin Murray>across the board. We need to have that kind of a policy. <v Kevin Murray>That policy has to extend to the boards and commissions that exist because those <v Kevin Murray>boards and commissions help make very important decisions with respect to the future <v Kevin Murray>of this community. So we have to be very sensitive that we get highly qualified

<v Kevin Murray>people. But the overall balance is such that we represent the diversity <v Kevin Murray>that is the city of Rochester. <v Kevin Murray>And when you achieve that, then people will feel they belong in this city, <v Kevin Murray>that their views are represented in the city. <v Kevin Murray>And hopefully that will go a long way to diffusing some of the problems that we have <v Kevin Murray>with race relations in this community. <v Gary Walker>Karen, you have a minute to rebut. <v Karen Noble Hanson>Thank you. Well, my my concern really goes to a couple of points. <v Karen Noble Hanson>First of all, you didn't answer the question as to whether or not you've made any <v Karen Noble Hanson>commitments as of now to people that you would be bringing into the administration. <v Karen Noble Hanson>And you may have made such commitments that <v Karen Noble Hanson>that are ones of people who are underrepresented now or not. <v Karen Noble Hanson>But I wonder why you didn't answer that, that particular question. <v Karen Noble Hanson>But the second thing is, is that as I've been out around the community during this <v Karen Noble Hanson>campaign, it's it's become evident to me that that you don't seem <v Karen Noble Hanson>to have been spending as much time in other segments of the community that really feel <v Karen Noble Hanson>underrepresented at this time. And I think anybody who is going to govern this city

<v Karen Noble Hanson>must have been throughout this community. <v Karen Noble Hanson>Whether it's good in terms of receiving votes or not, must have been throughout <v Karen Noble Hanson>this community in order to truly govern this city in a fair and equitable way. <v Gary Walker>And that is time. Mr. Murray, your topic for a question is <v Gary Walker>safety of teachers and students in our schools. <v Kevin Murray>Ok, I'll ask Bill Johnson. Bill, certainly, if our schools are <v Kevin Murray>going to be effective, we have to makes certain that the students and the teachers <v Kevin Murray>are safe. What types of things would you like to see the city <v Kevin Murray>do together in collaboration with the school district to make our system <v Kevin Murray>safer? <v Bill Johnson>I think it is absolutely imperative that the district's weapons policy <v Bill Johnson>be stringently enforced. <v Bill Johnson>There is no conceivable reason why any child, <v Bill Johnson>any adolescent should be carrying a weapon on the streets <v Bill Johnson>or in the schools. There is no conceivable reason, and we must make

<v Bill Johnson>certain. I heard just on television tonight. <v Bill Johnson>I remember a school board candidate kind of equivocating on this issue. <v Bill Johnson>There is no reason. And I think that is the first thing. <v Bill Johnson>The second thing is that as hard as we have tried and as miserably <v Bill Johnson>as we have failed, we have got to get more effective parental <v Bill Johnson>involvement in the schools. And that is not just mean getting parents <v Bill Johnson>to come to PTA meetings and to Christmas programs, but to <v Bill Johnson>hold parents strictly accountable for the behavior of their children <v Bill Johnson>as early as grade one. <v Bill Johnson>We cannot sit back and allow children's behavior. <v Bill Johnson>We see it. We see children engage in all kinds of behavior and <v Bill Johnson>ignore it until they get into middle school or into high school and then try to address <v Bill Johnson>it. I have outlined a specific proposal to deal with <v Bill Johnson>this by using the existing human service agencies that <v Bill Johnson>are established, that have trained staff to work with students and families

<v Bill Johnson>to have those staffs, one, work out of schools during school <v Bill Johnson>days and two to use those staffs to to <v Bill Johnson>continue after school programs. <v Bill Johnson>We need to keep those school buildings open until 11:00 to twelve o'clock in the night <v Bill Johnson>and on the weekends. And we can do it not by adding more costs, but by using existing <v Bill Johnson>resources. And I think when we begin to do that, having parents take more responsibility <v Bill Johnson>for their own children's behavior, we won't have to worry about metal detectors or <v Bill Johnson>anything like that. We will have solved the problem long before it gets out of hand. <v Gary Walker>Well done. It's time. Exactly. <v Gary Walker>Mr. Murray, you have one minute to respond. <v Kevin Murray>Bill, I tend to agree with most of what you say. <v Kevin Murray>It's a crime on the street. It's a crime in the school. <v Kevin Murray>It's fairly simple. <v Kevin Murray>I followed on one program. There's a smart program in North for Norfolk, Virginia. <v Kevin Murray>Norfolk had problems similar to what we're experiencing, where they had violence and <v Kevin Murray>weapons problems in their schools. <v Kevin Murray>They did some studies of it. They came up with the fact that the people who were

<v Kevin Murray>performing poor in school were often the people who had bed <v Kevin Murray>conduct. It was a small number of people were chronic violators, and what they <v Kevin Murray>did to do is put a group of one teacher, one student <v Kevin Murray>and one volunteer from the public together to work intensively <v Kevin Murray>with those students. And they were able to turn it around considerably. <v Kevin Murray>At least the information I have is this is worked by getting those people who <v Kevin Murray>have been chronically in trouble in school together with three individuals <v Kevin Murray>and working fairly intensively. <v Kevin Murray>They have reduced substantially the violence and the weapons programs in their schools. <v Kevin Murray>These are things we need to look at. <v Gary Walker>And that's our next questioner will be John Erbe. <v Gary Walker>John, your topic is gun control. <v John Erbe>Gun control. <v John Erbe>I'd like to ask this question of Kevin. <v John Erbe>The events leading to gun control are that many people do not feel safe <v John Erbe>in the neighborhoods of Rochester, and it's caused a proliferation of guns by

<v John Erbe>citizens to protect themselves. <v John Erbe>And then because there are so many illegal weapons in neighborhoods, in the hands <v John Erbe>of people who should or who are criminals and creating fear and violence <v John Erbe>in neighborhoods, what would you do about that if you were elected mayor? <v Kevin Murray>I think the legislation that passed was an attempt to do something. <v Kevin Murray>And sometimes when people want to do something, they don't necessarily do the best thing. <v Kevin Murray>The problem we have in this community is not with legal weapons. <v Kevin Murray>Those weapons that the current policy put forward dealt with the problem is with <v Kevin Murray>illegal weapons. We have in New York state a mandatory one year sentence <v Kevin Murray>if you're caught the commission of a crime with an illegal weapon. <v Kevin Murray>However, it's practically never enforced. <v Kevin Murray>It's usually either waived by the judge or plea bargained away. <v Kevin Murray>I've talked with members of the state assembly and I've talked with the district attorney <v Kevin Murray>about getting a law that would require, if anyone is caught in <v Kevin Murray>the commission of a crime with an illegal weapon.

<v Kevin Murray>They would get a mandatory one year sentence. <v Kevin Murray>No plea bargain, no waiver of that sentence. <v Kevin Murray>That's something we want to send a message out to people that if you use an illegal <v Kevin Murray>weapon, you're going to jail and you can have a one year sentence minimum. <v Kevin Murray>And on top of that is whatever sentence you get for whatever crime, in fact, occurred. <v Kevin Murray>The legal weapons are not the problem. <v Kevin Murray>It's the illegal weapons. We should put our emphasis on harm reduction <v Kevin Murray>since the harm is being caused by illegal weapons. <v Kevin Murray>That's where the efforts of the city of Rochester should go. <v Gary Walker>Mr. Erbe, you have one minute. <v John Erbe>Well, quite frankly, effective gun control can only happen on a state or federal <v John Erbe>level. The events leading up to the citizen frustration <v John Erbe>and them wanting their city government to do something serious about guns <v John Erbe>and violence in our community. He didn't answer that question. <v John Erbe>We had a shoot out and Lake Avenue a couple of weeks ago. <v John Erbe>Sixty rounds of ammunition were shot. <v John Erbe>People are getting tired of the violence that comes from drug related

<v John Erbe>crime in this community. We have to shift resources into our neighborhoods. <v John Erbe>I've made a proposal to put 90 additional police officers in the neighborhoods and <v John Erbe>commercial districts of Rochester that would address this concern. <v John Erbe>It's a specific, detailed proposal that answers the question <v John Erbe>and gives citizens of our community, some confidence- the confidence that there's <v John Erbe>leadership on this issue. It's good to talk about neighborhood policing and community <v John Erbe>policing, but if you don't have any facts to back up your proposals and if you don't <v John Erbe>have concrete proposals, then you're to see more frustration in laws that <v John Erbe>really don't have any impact. <v Gary Walker>And that's time, Mr. Erb. Our next questioner is Ruth Scott. <v Gary Walker>And your topic, Ruth, will be manufacturing jobs. <v Ruth Scott>I would like to ask Kevin Murray, what did he <v Ruth Scott>do while he was on the county legislature to increase <v Ruth Scott>the number of manufacturing jobs in this community? <v Ruth Scott>And how did it work? How many were there?

<v Kevin Murray>I did a number of things. <v Kevin Murray>One of them was I sponsored legislation that in fact passed and is now in <v Kevin Murray>place to have a small business incubator. <v Kevin Murray>Small business incubators are set up so that small fledgling firms <v Kevin Murray>can come in provided with space and technical assistance and some shared services. <v Kevin Murray>So in those initial phases, when they most need help, they're given help. <v Kevin Murray>It's a very effective program that's being used by high technology of Rochester. <v Kevin Murray>In addition, I've served with the Industrial Development Agency. <v Kevin Murray>The Industrial Development Agency puts together packages of tax abatement <v Kevin Murray>and low interest loans to firms to bring them into our community. <v Kevin Murray>Some of the successes are things like precision technology, which started out with 35 <v Kevin Murray>jobs, now has over 200 jobs right here in the city of Rochester. <v Kevin Murray>Good paying jobs as well. <v Kevin Murray>These are successes. We have others. <v Kevin Murray>We have optical technology. <v Kevin Murray>We have WINZER. We have many firms that came in because of the work of the industrial

<v Kevin Murray>development agency. These are success stories. <v Kevin Murray>What we need is to have more of them. <v Kevin Murray>We bring in the small firms and we hope they grow. <v Kevin Murray>Many of them have grown and they've had good high paying jobs for the citizens of this <v Kevin Murray>community. I'm proud of the role that I played in that. <v Kevin Murray>And that's the type of thing that I'll do as mayor of the Ro- of the city of Rochester is <v Kevin Murray>bring good jobs and good companies with growth potential into our community. <v Kevin Murray>In addition, I put forward a bill to give local preference. <v Kevin Murray>Right now, the county of Monroe and professional contracts, not bid contracts, then <v Kevin Murray>professional contracts. We have a strong preference for local <v Kevin Murray>that's engineers and architects and other professionals that keeps the money local, <v Kevin Murray>that circulates your tax dollars right here at home. <v Kevin Murray>Those are programs I think are very effective at helping our economy in Rochester grow. <v Gary Walker>And that's time Ruth Scott you have 1 minute. <v Ruth Scott>I don't know whether I misunderstood you or not, but. <v Ruth Scott>But you said that what you did was to sponsor the legislation related to

<v Ruth Scott>incubator businesses. <v Kevin Murray>Small businesses. <v Ruth Scott>And that. <v Ruth Scott>But that was not the industrial development agency. <v Ruth Scott>The long list that you've given us are actually companies that were put together <v Ruth Scott>by other kinds of organization and not by that piece of legislation. <v Ruth Scott>So you can't claim credit for having created those jobs and that that agency. <v Ruth Scott>So actually, you didn't answer the question as to how many jobs really came <v Ruth Scott>about as an effect of the things that you did on the county legislature. <v Ruth Scott>In addition, I think the rules of the county legislature, it says <v Ruth Scott>that the legislature should indeed plan have a work <v Ruth Scott>plan for each year. I think that years during which you were president so far, I ask <v Ruth Scott>you last night to tell us show us where in <v Ruth Scott>those plans you placed job development. <v Ruth Scott>And I still haven't seen anything. <v Gary Walker>And that is time. <v Kevin Murray>The high priorities in. <v Gary Walker>that is time.

<v Ruth Scott>[Inaudible]. <v Gary Walker>Next question. <v Gary Walker>Well, the audience will have to ask questions on that so we can finish this. <v Gary Walker>Thank you. Our next question is Nancy Padilla. <v Gary Walker>Nancy, your topic is graffiti. <v Ruth Scott>Must be the heat of the lights. <v Ruth Scott>Graffiti. <v Ruth Scott>There are never init- initiatives at the city of Rochester has put in place <v Ruth Scott>as mayor. When I'm elected, I'm going to continue to work and <v Ruth Scott>support these initiatives. But I think what's more important is the employment of <v Ruth Scott>youth. The identification of youth services. <v Ruth Scott>Kevin would- what are your plans for addressing the issue of <v Ruth Scott>graffiti? <v Kevin Murray>There's a number of things. First. I think a mayor leads by example. <v Kevin Murray>In the last two years, I've worked to paint over graffiti in a number of our <v Kevin Murray>neighborhoods on Genesee Street, the last two years in the summer on Central <v Kevin Murray>Park, this year, Lisle Avenue this year being out there with others, helping

<v Kevin Murray>to paint over graffiti. It leads by example. <v Kevin Murray>And that's positive. We would continue program exists <v Kevin Murray>that provides paint and other material and some administrative help to provide <v Kevin Murray>people with the phone calls and the papers and make sure they know when these events help <v Kevin Murray>are going to occur because that's important. <v Kevin Murray>But we need to do is teach our youth that when they spray paint or they see a friend <v Kevin Murray>spray spray painting or anything like that, it's not funny. <v Kevin Murray>It's not comical. It's not something that's cute. <v Kevin Murray>But rather that's vandalism and it's wrong and it deteriorates the neighborhood. <v Kevin Murray>And when they help clean it up, that teaches them a very important lesson. <v Kevin Murray>And I think that lesson is one that won't be lost when they go back and they talk to <v Kevin Murray>their friends the next time anyone talks about vandalism of that type. <v Kevin Murray>They're going to say, wait a minute, that's wrong. That hurts our neighborhood. <v Kevin Murray>I was out and I spent some time painting over it. <v Kevin Murray>I don't want to see you do it. I don't want to do it. <v Kevin Murray>That's wrong. We lead by example.

<v Kevin Murray>I think the mayor should be out there, as I have been painting over graffiti, <v Kevin Murray>standing next to other people, students, teachers, and leading by example. <v Gary Walker>Nancy, you have one minute. <v Nancy Padilla>Would you not agree that the graffiti is another message to us <v Nancy Padilla>adults calling for more attention, more support, <v Nancy Padilla>more caring for more caring environment for the leaders of this <v Nancy Padilla>community, to set an example to set the tone <v Nancy Padilla>for this community? <v Kevin Murray>Yes. <v Gary Walker>OK, that's time. Our next questioner is Bill Johnson. <v Gary Walker>Bill, your topic is city unions. <v Bill Johnson>Let me see who I'd like this to go to. <v Bill Johnson>I guess I want to ask this to- to John Erb. <v Bill Johnson>John, I noticed in the paper the other day that the <v Bill Johnson>president of the Ask Me Union, the City Municipal Union, Tony

<v Bill Johnson>Angello, not only was an enthusiastic endorser of yours, <v Bill Johnson>but he also is a volunteer in your campaign, given that you- I <v Bill Johnson>also heard that you have been endorsed by the Locust Club. <v Bill Johnson>And its president, Mr. Evangelista. <v Bill Johnson>Given that part of your back to basics talks about controlling cost, <v Bill Johnson>do you think that these endorsements represent any kind of conflict of interest, <v Bill Johnson>that they will impair your ability to reduce the cost of <v Bill Johnson>government that you and I have been speaking about more fortunately than than some <v Bill Johnson>others? Do you think that these endorsements would in any way impair your ability <v Bill Johnson>to control the cost of government and bring about some of the changes in work rules <v Bill Johnson>and a workforce reductions that you've been talking about? <v John Erbe>Bill, let me answer that by referring to some experience that I have as a small business <v John Erbe>owner and what's happening in the business community.

<v John Erbe>When we talk about total quality management, we talk about management and workers working <v John Erbe>together to identify the best way to deliver services in your business <v John Erbe>or in government for the government to the community. <v John Erbe>The adversarial relationship between management workers doesn't work anymore. <v John Erbe>Workers in management need to work together to find ways to most effectively, <v John Erbe>both in terms of cost and the way services are delivered the most. <v John Erbe>The best way to make those services perform for the people that pay for them. <v John Erbe>I'm proud to have the support of the men who work in the city of Rochester. <v John Erbe>They have confidence in my ability to lead, bring together this city government. <v John Erbe>The need for leaders shows a need to bring the men and women who are out front lines <v John Erbe>everyday. <v John Erbe>We can save- everyone knows-. <v Speaker>[rewinding sound].