Making the Grade; Shopping for Schools: Educational Choices in the 90's

<v John Callaway>I just love coming here for lunch in this mall, you can taste much of the world. <v John Callaway>Chinese stir fry, burritos, good old American hot dogs, offerings <v John Callaway>from Greece. And my favorites, lasagna and pizza. <v John Callaway>This place is choice city. <v John Callaway>Now, if you want to buy a new or used car, if you've got the cash or the credit, <v John Callaway>you can also enjoy plenty of choice. <v John Callaway>Even if you're shopping for the best elementary or high school, there's choice. <v John Callaway>If you can afford it, you can move just about anywhere you want. <v John Callaway>And if you have enough money to pay the tuition, you can join the 12 percent <v John Callaway>of American families who send their children to church affiliated or other private <v John Callaway>schools. But if you don't have the job or the money necessary to move <v John Callaway>to the town or the neighborhood of your choice, and if you can't find the money to pay <v John Callaway>for that tuition. Your choices for educating your children may be severely <v John Callaway>limited. And if your choices are limited, there are those who <v John Callaway>say that the quality of your child's education will be diminished. <v John Callaway>Tonight, we'll hear from advocates of educational choice who will argue that good schools

<v John Callaway>should be available to all without regard to income and that no one <v John Callaway>school is best for all students. <v John Callaway>We'll hear from critics who say that choice programs frequently are a smoke screen for <v John Callaway>highly selective admissions programs, resegregation of school districts <v John Callaway>and other shortcomings which pose a threat to the already troubled public schools. <v John Callaway>So stay with us. Now, as we take you on a trip we call shopping for schools. <v John Callaway>President Bush has said that competition can spur excellence in our schools <v John Callaway>and that choice is the catalyst for change. <v John Callaway>And with us via satellite to Milwaukee is Dr. Robert Peterkin, who is the superintendent <v John Callaway>of the Milwaukee Public Schools. <v John Callaway>And Dr. Peterkin, can let's get started by asking you if choice really <v John Callaway>is a panacea. Can customer driven schools really provide the improvements <v John Callaway>that we need in American education?

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>No, I don't think choice is a panacea, but I certainly think that choice as an important <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>factor in the restructuring of America's public schools and quite possibly <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>in the public and private domain, it enables you if you work within the context <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>of restructuring and deal with other issues parent empowerment, teacher empowerment, <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>curriculum and staff development that enables you to use <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>the school system and its resources as a vehicle for change. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>I have some caveats and concerns about about choice in terms of equity and the provision <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>of information to those who usually don't get it. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>But in fact, I think choice can be a vehicle to drive the kind of change that we're <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>looking for in America's schools, but not alone. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Nothing's a panacea for the resolution of the problems of of American education. <v John Callaway>And to any extent is the choice discussion centered around <v John Callaway>the giving up on public schools by some people? <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>I think it is obviously, and that I think is regrettable. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It is it is a illogical extension of something that could be a sound principle. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>That's why it's so difficult to have have a rational dialog about the issue because we're

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>such polar opposites when in fact we should be looking at the educational benefit for <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>children and parents. <v John Callaway>Well, with us via satellite to Washington, D.C. <v John Callaway>is Phyllis McClure, who's director of policy and information of the NAACP Legal <v John Callaway>Defense and Educational Fund. <v John Callaway>And Ms. McClure, thank you for being with us this evening. <v John Callaway>What do you say to those who say that choice really is, <v John Callaway>if not the panacea is the direction we should really go and emphasize in <v John Callaway>coming years in U.S. education? <v Phyllis McClure>Well, choice has become a buzzword for all kinds of educational arrangements, but as <v Phyllis McClure>a philosophy for school reform, it's really a bankrupt uh <v Phyllis McClure>policy because the whole problem with choices <v Phyllis McClure>that puts the burden for improving schools on parents and lets <v Phyllis McClure>school officials, teachers, educators generally off the hook. <v Phyllis McClure>One of the reasons we've got uh limited choices in education is <v Phyllis McClure>because of racial discrimination in housing.

<v Phyllis McClure>If black and low income people could move to the suburbs of Chicago <v Phyllis McClure>and that generally have better schools in the city of Chicago. <v Phyllis McClure>This choice debate would be as prominent as it is. <v John Callaway>But is there something going on politically in this country other than the segregation <v John Callaway>issue that you raised that makes choice such a major issue in such <v John Callaway>a point of discussion? <v Phyllis McClure>We have a president of United States who wants to be an education president, but he wants <v Phyllis McClure>to be a no cost education president. <v Phyllis McClure>In other words, he wants to spur school reform, but he doesn't want the federal <v Phyllis McClure>government to be any uh major financial contributor to it. <v Phyllis McClure>So he has to come up with what I call the no choice solution to being an education <v Phyllis McClure>president. <v John Callaway>Well, like many urban school systems as a result of court ordered desegregation, Chicago <v John Callaway>currently provides an educational choice program to racially balance schools. <v John Callaway>Mary Broomfield is the assistant superintendent of the Department of Equal Educational <v John Callaway>Opportunity Programs for the Chicago Public Schools.

<v John Callaway>And uh Ms. Broomfield, I'm wondering if you can tell us, I I know you can probably speak <v John Callaway>for 30 minutes on it, but give us some of the highlights of choice within the public <v John Callaway>school system. <v Mary E. Broomfield>Yes, John, the uh Options for Knowledge program within the Chicago public school system <v Mary E. Broomfield>has been very successful in achieving the goals of desegregation through alternative <v Mary E. Broomfield>programs, through creating miles of excellence, through attracting <v Mary E. Broomfield>a racially, ethnically diverse, socially, economically and academically diverse <v Mary E. Broomfield>population into specific models of excellence. <v Mary E. Broomfield>We have programs in approximately 200 schools, about 45 magnet schools, <v Mary E. Broomfield>over 70 receiving schools. <v Mary E. Broomfield>But we also have similar programs in schools that are considered <v Mary E. Broomfield>to be racially identifiable that are exactly like the schools that are magnet <v Mary E. Broomfield>schools. We had approximately 100,000 students or let's say <v Mary E. Broomfield>30 percent of the student population that pac- that participate in our Options for <v Mary E. Broomfield>Knowledge programs. We have about 60,000 students or 15 percent <v Mary E. Broomfield>that are choosing to go to schools outside of their

<v Mary E. Broomfield>own community at this point. There is certainly a need for <v Mary E. Broomfield>an increased opportunity for neighborhood schools to be able to compete with those <v Mary E. Broomfield>options. <v John Callaway>And when you say they have the option of choosing to go outside their neighborhood <v John Callaway>school, is this done on a lottery basis? <v John Callaway>Is it done to have to take some kind of examination? How does it work in Chicago? <v Mary E. Broomfield>It's a lottery basis except for one or two schools that are specifically designed <v Mary E. Broomfield>for academically talented youngsters. We always have more applications than there are <v Mary E. Broomfield>available seats so that we do lottery and students for <v Mary E. Broomfield>all available seats. <v John Callaway>All right. Let me introduce Suzanne Davenport, who is co-director for Leadership <v John Callaway>Development for Designs for Change. <v John Callaway>What is your overview of all of this talk now about choice in schools? <v Suzanne Davenport>Our view is based on some research we did in 4 major cities Chicago, New York, Boston <v Suzanne Davenport>and Philadelphia. Looking at the high schools and just what the difference choice made <v Suzanne Davenport>in those high school systems and what we looked at and found was that the high <v Suzanne Davenport>that the choice systems that exist within these high schools, such as

<v Suzanne Davenport>the magnet school programs and so on, create basically a two tier system of <v Suzanne Davenport>neighborhood schools versus highly selective magnet and other kinds of schools, <v Suzanne Davenport>which are have a much higher proportion of resources, <v Suzanne Davenport>of more qualified teachers and of higher achieving students than you have left <v Suzanne Davenport>in the neighborhood schools. Students who have failed more subjects, students who <v Suzanne Davenport>are in bilingual education and special education. <v Suzanne Davenport>And and thus you have these neighborhood schools with one hand tied behind their back who <v Suzanne Davenport>really cannot compete with the magnet schools. <v Suzanne Davenport>And so you have an internally divided system. <v Suzanne Davenport>And within that system, it's very hard to set up a good choice system with <v Suzanne Davenport>equity. We would like to see more choice in the public schools, but it has to be with <v Suzanne Davenport>equity. <v John Callaway>When children leave to go to a magnet school, is there any evidence to suggest that those <v John Callaway>left behind suffer as a result of that? <v Suzanne Davenport>Yes, documented across the board, the students feel bad. <v Suzanne Davenport>There's a negative effect on their self image.

<v Suzanne Davenport>Same in teacher morale. And there's also a distinct difference in the actual resources <v Suzanne Davenport>available to those schools. <v John Callaway>James Deanes is president of Parent Community Council and is very involved as a as <v John Callaway>a parent in the Chicago school system and has been a part of Chicago school reform. <v John Callaway>Before I get your overview on it, let me just ask you, as a parent, does <v John Callaway>the the notion of having a choice to get your children <v John Callaway>out of a neighborhood school close to your home, if indeed you want that, does that <v John Callaway>appeal to you as a parent? <v James Deanes>As a parent the notion of having educational opportunities unlimited <v James Deanes>certainly appeals to me. <v James Deanes>As a parent and as an involved person in the city of Chicago, I have <v James Deanes>a fear of what some people use as choice when in fact they <v James Deanes>mean voucher. <v John Callaway>Now, what do you mean? Why do you fear vouchers or why do you fear the notion of <v John Callaway>the state, say, presenting, let's say, 2500 dollars to a family <v John Callaway>to let that family have a choice to go outside the neighborhood public school or maybe <v John Callaway>into a private school. What's your problem with that?

<v James Deanes>Well one of the things that we've always heard was that you, in fact, have an opportunity <v James Deanes>as a parent to put your child in any school of your choice, but you should <v James Deanes>not have public dollars to do that. <v James Deanes>Public education is a right for every child. <v James Deanes>We've already had a system that is two tiered. <v James Deanes>We know that there is difficulty in finding private schools and finding <v James Deanes>the resources to send your children to that, those schools. <v James Deanes>We see people now come in. <v James Deanes>And I'm afraid that that notion of choice, as we hear it today, where you are going to <v James Deanes>take public dollars and eventually support private education, <v James Deanes>and that's my fear. <v John Callaway>Mr. Deanes, you really get into the nitty gritty of the schools and the school councils <v John Callaway>that that you work in. Is it true that there are some parents <v John Callaway>in some schools who either don't have the knowhow or they don't have the motivation <v John Callaway>to do the necessary paperwork, the necessary investigation, et cetera, <v John Callaway>to get their kids even to say a magnet school, much less to try to do the shopping

<v John Callaway>for a private school? That is parents who have a problem with making a choice. <v John Callaway>Do you see that at all? <v James Deanes>I see that parents don't have necessarily the resources. <v James Deanes>I think we do, in fact, have the knowhow to a certain extent, but I don't know if the <v James Deanes>resources are extended to as many parents who need it as those <v James Deanes>who don't need it as much. <v John Callaway>What do you mean by resources? <v James Deanes>I mean technical advice and assistance. <v James Deanes>I mean financial resources. <v James Deanes>I mean university interventions and things of that nature. <v James Deanes>Some neighborhoods tend to get more of it, and some other neighborhoods like <v James Deanes>the one I live in tend to get less of it. <v John Callaway>And let me introduce Patrick Keleher, who is president of Teach America. <v John Callaway>That's Taxpayers for Educational Accountability and Choice. <v John Callaway>And Mr. Keleher, I take from that the title of that organization that you are very <v John Callaway>pro-choice. <v Patrick Keleher>We're extremely pro-choice. And really to cast it in the proper definition. <v Patrick Keleher>We're we're for educational self-determination. <v Patrick Keleher>I like to use that language. And uh.

<v John Callaway>You're for educational? <v Patrick Keleher>Self-determination. <v John Callaway>Self-determination. <v Patrick Keleher>And uh we take very literally certain subjects, certain certain words like empowerment, <v Patrick Keleher>teacher professionalism, school site autonomy. <v Patrick Keleher>And most of us are veterans of the Chicago Public School Battle. <v Patrick Keleher>And we're sickened to see the the change of venue of <v Patrick Keleher>Chicago public school reform down to Springfield once again, three years after our <v Patrick Keleher>legislative victory. We're back to the utter politicization of school reform. <v Patrick Keleher>What we see now is that we have got to get the other half of the empowerment loaf that <v Patrick Keleher>we didn't get in 1988. <v Patrick Keleher>In 1988, we got the half of loaf, half of al loaf that Chubb and <v Patrick Keleher>Mo talked about in their book on school reform. <v Patrick Keleher>The political half. We got strong empowerment politically for our local school councils. <v John Callaway>You like that? <v Patrick Keleher>I love it. And the school councils are the heart and soul of school reform. <v Patrick Keleher>But what we didn't get, John, is we did not get economic empowerment. <v Patrick Keleher>And until that until we have that, until local school councils and the members <v Patrick Keleher>there are just like the folks out in the suburbs, where they can walk away from the table

<v Patrick Keleher>in the local school chambers, take their kid out of the school, if they're not satisfied <v Patrick Keleher>with what they're getting, they're not truly empowered. <v John Callaway>Mr. Keleher, let's let's just take that a step further. <v John Callaway>Let's say that the legislature provides a huge amount of funding <v John Callaway>so that those who want vouchers or as I think some if you want to call it scholarships, <v John Callaway>they want 2,500 - 5,000 dollars. <v John Callaway>Now they've got a choice. How far do you think that would go? <v John Callaway>In a in a school system like Chicago with 400,000 plus students, you think 50,000 <v John Callaway>would opt for that? <v Patrick Keleher>I don't think it would be traumatic exodus or traumatic defunding of the school <v Patrick Keleher>system. But you might look at that. <v John Callaway>I'm sorry. Why not? If the school system is as bankrupt as its critics say it is. <v John Callaway>Why wouldn't if poor people who were the only people apparently who don't have the choice <v John Callaway>to get out? Why is it that they would not opt for it? <v Patrick Keleher>For any number of ideological reasons people prefer public schools, and that's gonna be <v Patrick Keleher>the case even after a scholarship plan comes on, by the way, at the college level, <v Patrick Keleher>if you send your kid to Lyola or DePaul or the University of Illinois at Chicago, you're

<v Patrick Keleher>gonna call that a scholarship, aren't you? <v John Callaway>Yes. <v Patrick Keleher>That's tax money going to public or private institutions. <v Patrick Keleher>So why draw a line in the sand and call it a voucher unless you want to put a negative <v Patrick Keleher>spin on the word? <v John Callaway>Well, the use of public funds to pay for private education is not a part of Chicago's <v John Callaway>school reform law. But many, like Patrick Keleher, argue that without allowing parents <v John Callaway>the full range of educational choice, that is choice between both private and public <v John Callaway>schools, parents have no real control over their children's education. <v John Callaway>In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, according to The Wall Street Journal, the 97,000 students <v John Callaway>in the system have a grade point average of 1.62 Or a <v John Callaway>D plus. Almost half the public school students drop out without graduating. <v John Callaway>So in a controversial move to address some of these problems, Milwaukee has embarked on <v John Callaway>the nation's first voucher experiment or scholarship experiment, providing low income <v John Callaway>children their choice of public or private schools. <v John Callaway>WTTW correspondant Royal Kennedy has the story. <v Royal Kennedy>In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where more than half of the 98,000 public school students

<v Royal Kennedy>travel miles every day to get to class a controversial plan to get low income <v Royal Kennedy>children off the buses and into local private schools has the city <v Royal Kennedy>sharply divided. Under the Milwaukee Choice program, the Frazier family <v Royal Kennedy>receives a 2500 dollar value from the state to pay for each of their children <v Royal Kennedy>to attend a local private school. <v Royal Kennedy>Since September, just 300 students have participated in the program. <v Royal Kennedy>State Representative Polly Williams, who sponsored the bill, says vouchers will encourage <v Royal Kennedy>competition and give parents more choice. <v Polly Williams>There are some children who do better in public schools and we need public schools and we <v Polly Williams>need good public schools. But there are some children who need to be in private <v Polly Williams>schools or parochial schools. <v Polly Williams>They need the kind of structure that goes with those type of school. <v Polly Williams>We need to have as many options as possible in order to <v Polly Williams>make sure that every child, every child's needs have been met. <v Royal Kennedy>Opponents of the program argue that although choice is important, it doesn't address the

<v Royal Kennedy>real problems of an urban school system. <v Steve Dold>I think the program reflects frustration with the public schools <v Steve Dold>and the seductive notion of choice and competition as somehow <v Steve Dold>being a panacea or a magic bullet that will solve not only <v Steve Dold>the educational problems in Milwaukee, but all of the social problems that contribute <v Steve Dold>to it in an urban setting in almost any urban setting. <v Royal Kennedy>David Frazier put his two children in a private school through the voucher program <v Royal Kennedy>because he felt that the improved education was worth an extra effort. <v David Frazier>They asked parents to come in and help them out in the office, maybe in a lunchroom <v David Frazier>on a playground, cleaning up the school. <v David Frazier>They have special projects, they might ask you to get involved. <v David Frazier>Getting up and driving 'em I think is worth worthwhile seeing the type of education that <v David Frazier>they're gettin'. <v Royal Kennedy>At their best private neighborhood schools offer a challenging environment, a focused <v Royal Kennedy>curriculum and a strong principle. <v Zakiya Courtney>The philosophy of the mission statement of Urban Day School is that all children can

<v Zakiya Courtney>learn if given the proper environment. <v Zakiya Courtney>And what our ambition has been is to provide an environment that's conducive to the <v Zakiya Courtney>learning of any and every student that come to our doors. <v Royal Kennedy>Wisconsin Governor Tom Thompson believes that vouchers may be the only way to improve <v Royal Kennedy>Milwaukee's troubled schools. <v Tom Thompson>Why can't education and schools do a better job if there's competition? <v Tom Thompson>This gives and brings into the area of education, competition <v Tom Thompson>and out of that I think you're going to you're going to evolve a better educational <v Tom Thompson>quality, a better educational program. <v Tom Thompson>And the end result is the child. <v Royal Kennedy>However, Lauri Wynn, who opposes the voucher plan, has many concerns about the quality of <v Royal Kennedy>education at private schools that are not certified by the state. <v Lauri Wynn>I surely don't think that the choice opportunity in a very <v Lauri Wynn>small, subjectively prepared school with teachers <v Lauri Wynn>who are there and who are not certified by the state with <v Lauri Wynn>facilities that are not updated.

<v Lauri Wynn>I don't think that that's the way you prepare youngsters who come from a community that <v Lauri Wynn>is poor, that is black, and that is behind already. <v Royal Kennedy>In December, the private school that Leah Wallace's two daughters attended through the <v Royal Kennedy>voucher program closed its doors. <v Royal Kennedy>A casualty of competition. <v Royal Kennedy>Now, all three of her girls are back in Milwaukee public schools. <v LaKendra Wallace>When you go to a school, such as my mom put me in, <v LaKendra Wallace>um the thing that she didn't do was go and check and make sure that that school <v LaKendra Wallace>was, you know, had the proper materials and <v LaKendra Wallace>um to make sure that that school um has everything that you need and gives a great <v LaKendra Wallace>education. <v Speaker>How many parents would take the kind of time to do the type of research that <v Speaker>is really required to make an informed choice? <v Speaker>Or would parents be persuaded as as we frequently are by successful <v Speaker>advertising campaigns? <v Speaker>I'm not trying to kill the public schools. <v Speaker>I want the public schools to get better.

<v Speaker>But if they're going to take a long time or can't seem to find a way <v Speaker>to immediately make some changes, in the meantime, we shouldn't just continue <v Speaker>to allow our children to die in a system that refuse to change. <v Speaker>We need to be trying to find out ways of helping the children. <v John Callaway>Patrick Keleher, the uh mother takes our children out of the uh Milwaukee <v John Callaway>public schools. She's got a 2500 dollar scholarship. <v John Callaway>She puts the children in private school and now the school closes. <v John Callaway>I mean, what's that say about the Milwaukee experiment? <v Patrick Keleher>It says a lot, let me tell you what it says, because it was described to that school <v Patrick Keleher>closing was described as a casualty of competition. <v Patrick Keleher>John, in the history of the Milwaukee public school system, not a single school has been <v Patrick Keleher>closed for nonperformance. But it was because of Polly Williams in the community <v Patrick Keleher>organizations, in the voucher plan, January 3rd at a community meeting, moved <v Patrick Keleher>in, zeroed in on this non-performing school, that that school is closed. <v Patrick Keleher>By the way, one of the reasons is closed. <v Patrick Keleher>One of the one of the failures in the plan was that the board of registration, the state

<v Patrick Keleher>board, failed to check out that school when it applied. <v Patrick Keleher>It permitted 50 percent more kids on the voucher to come into that school and it <v Patrick Keleher>permitted violations of health and safety standards. <v John Callaway>All right. So there are problems there are problems with it. <v John Callaway>But do you like the Milwaukee experiment, basically? <v Patrick Keleher>Definitely. It's responsive to customers. We have proof in this one, one school being <v Patrick Keleher>closed already. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>John, that's just not accurate. I'm sorry. <v John Callaway>Dr. Peterkin. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>First of all, the Milwaukee Public Schools has closed schools that were inadequate <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>and turned them into magnet schools. It's a history of our desegregation order. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>And I'm sorry that that's not known. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Secondly, that school did not close, that private school didn't close. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It simply discharged the students. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It decided to teach religion halfway through the year and discharged its students <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>and came out of the choice system and we took the students back. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>That's one of my problems with the whole idea of of public private choices, <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>that it just doesn't play by the same standards. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>We would not be allowed to do that. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Those students uh those schools continue to have selective admissions

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>criteria. Parents aren't asked to uh to volunteer. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>That's a part and parcel of the school, we ask parents to volunteer, but in the private <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>schools that are depicted here in Milwaukee, that's in fact, a component. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>You're required to do that. I wish I could require parents to to participate. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It's just an unfair comparison that just doesn't stand analysis. <v John Callaway>But Dr. Peter, when you look at the performance of the public schools in Milwaukee. <v John Callaway>If the Wall Street Journal report was anywhere near accurate, do you understand why <v John Callaway>people are desperate to opt out of it? <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>I understand that. But they also The Wall Street Journal article I thought was scandalous <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>in its in its condemnation of one of my schools, for instance, that had never visited. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It just looked across the street from Urban Day School, which was depicted in your clip. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Saw our school being closed during the Labor Day weekend and said it was a fortress <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>against the community. It's just not simply true. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>27th Street schools and extremely caring bilingual school with a lot of innovative <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>programs we've spent a great deal of time on. <v John Callaway>OK. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>I just don't think that that kind of depiction is helpful. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It's one of the reasons that public private choice has so much difficulty

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>in that it's in its advocates feel that they have to demean public schools in order to <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>boost the private schools. <v John Callaway>Suzanne Davenport. <v Suzanne Davenport>I think the example of the Milwaukee school closing for that kind <v Suzanne Davenport>of reason is an example of just the lack of accountability that parents ran up against <v Suzanne Davenport>once they go into the private school arena. <v Suzanne Davenport>And one of the major contrasts here in Chicago is that we have a school reform law that <v Suzanne Davenport>is set up public accountability, unlike any other urban school system <v Suzanne Davenport>in the country where parents together can make choices about who their principal will be, <v Suzanne Davenport>how to spend the budget up to which a third may be discretionary, which <v Suzanne Davenport>could be one million dollars. It's not simply a $2000 per student, it's a million dollars <v Suzanne Davenport>of the average elementary school budget, as well as make <v Suzanne Davenport>decisions about the kind of curriculum goals, the kind of curriculum the special emphasis <v Suzanne Davenport>and so on that are appropriate to that community. <v Suzanne Davenport>Parents have gained in the students. <v John Callaway>Mr. Deanes. <v James Deanes>And I take issue <v Phyllis McClure>Mr. Callaway, can I get in on this. <v John Callaway>In just a minute, yes. Mr. Deans and then we'll go to the.

<v James Deanes>I take particular issue with what Pat saying that Pershing Road has not been downsized is <v James Deanes>simply almost a lie. <v James Deanes>I mean, it's not quite a lie, but it's almost a lie. <v James Deanes>[laughter] Secondly, if you really believe <v John Callaway>Pershing Road for those viewers who may not know it being the central administrative <v John Callaway>bureaucracy of the Chicago public schools. <v James Deanes>Furthermore, when we talk about when we went down to Springfield to get a school <v James Deanes>reform law that we in fact came back with, if we still support <v James Deanes>school reform, we must in fact, give those local school councils <v James Deanes>an opportunity to not only develop those school improvement plans, but also <v James Deanes>to implement it. So you can't say you support it on the left hand and then <v James Deanes>and say you want something different on the right. <v John Callaway>Let's go back to Washington and Phyllis McClure, you wanted to get on it? <v Phyllis McClure>Yes, I wanted to say that these proponents of choice, like Mr. Callahan, have <v Phyllis McClure>a very seductive appeal. They try to get us to believe that competition <v Phyllis McClure>in the commercial marketplace can be applied to the area of education, <v Phyllis McClure>that there's some sort of quick fix magic solution.

<v Phyllis McClure>The major problem with these choice programs, and I sense that from what I hear about <v Phyllis McClure>Milwaukee and about Chicago, is that <v Phyllis McClure>choice does nothing to improve the supply of good schools. <v Phyllis McClure>Well, what you have are both private schools and some public schools <v Phyllis McClure>that want to keep their good reputation or keep their reputation that they are <v Phyllis McClure>of a certain religious persuasion. <v Phyllis McClure>But if those schools take in limited English speakers, disabled <v Phyllis McClure>students, students who are behind in school, their test scores will suffer. <v Phyllis McClure>They will lose their reputation. The result is that they will find a way <v Phyllis McClure>to keep out students who threaten their perceived success. <v John Callaway>OK, Miss Broomfield. <v Mary E. Broomfield>The success of any choice program and I'll go back to the magnet school program in <v Mary E. Broomfield>Chicago depends upon how well it's administered and managed. <v Mary E. Broomfield>And as I stated earlier, the student body is. <v John Callaway>[laughter] Wait, wait, let's give her a chance to speak.

<v Mary E. Broomfield>The student body is lotteries in so that the student body is socially, economically <v Mary E. Broomfield>diverse. Sue had said earlier about special education students, we have done a study <v Mary E. Broomfield>of 100000 students, 50 percent of the students and the Options Knowledge <v Mary E. Broomfield>programs now come from a special ed population. <v Mary E. Broomfield>They are bilingual. They are uh come from all levels socioeconomic. <v Mary E. Broomfield>50 percent of the students are on free or reduced lunch. <v Mary E. Broomfield>So we cannot say that we are skimming out the top because they are managed as not like <v Mary E. Broomfield>the other school systems. I'd Also like to go back to say that we also have to remember <v Mary E. Broomfield>that reform complements choices and reform complements <v Mary E. Broomfield>the options program, but I would say as Mr. Deanes has said it takes <v Mary E. Broomfield>time for the LSCs to began to. <v John Callaway>The local school councils. <v Mary E. Broomfield>Local school, to develop the programs that will be able to be as competitive system wide. <v Mary E. Broomfield>You cannot take something away until you you've given them opportunity for them to work. <v John Callaway>Let's go to a member of our audience. Tell us who you are. <v Janice Crumpton>I'm Janice Crumpton and I'm a parent of a high school student who has had many choices.

<v John Callaway>And what's your experience been with choice? Are you big pro-choice person now that <v John Callaway>you've gotten into a little bit? <v Janice Crumpton>I think choice is a very difficult thing for parents to have to go through. <v Janice Crumpton>However, should a student finally get exposure to a better quality <v Janice Crumpton>of education at the high school level, what safeguards are in <v Janice Crumpton>place in these innovative programs to teach them the learning and <v Janice Crumpton>the study skills they missed, so that they can compete academically? <v John Callaway>Are you saying that that you had a child that went out of the public schools into what we <v John Callaway>would call a private choice. <v Janice Crumpton>Yes. <v John Callaway>Situation and then had some struggles? <v Janice Crumpton>Yes. The struggles came when she needed boosting on study <v Janice Crumpton>skills and learning skills, and it became very, very difficult <v Janice Crumpton>to access to them. <v John Callaway>So if you're going to go into a private school, you want whatever resources <v John Callaway>it takes to enable you, the child coming out of this, was it an inner <v John Callaway>city school? Out of an inner citiy school to make that leap?

<v Janice Crumpton>Absolutely. The leap is very difficult. <v John Callaway>Mr. Keleher, you wanted to comment? <v Patrick Keleher>I find it hard to generalize from that specific example. <v Patrick Keleher>But let me just point out to you that in the city of Chicago, John, we have in our <v Patrick Keleher>largest private school system in the inner city, 130 <v Patrick Keleher>schools and communities designated as fe- federal poverty levels serving 42000 <v Patrick Keleher>children. 80 percent of them are minority kids, 40 percent of the run, are not <v Patrick Keleher>of the sponsoring religion for this particular school. <v Patrick Keleher>They're being served day in and day out. And if you saw a documentary on another channel, <v Patrick Keleher>a channel that long ago last weekend, Islands for Hope, you'll see that inner city kids <v Patrick Keleher>are being served exceptionally well. And I would like to as long as I've got the floor, I <v Patrick Keleher>would like to mention to the lady from the NAACP, because it hasn't been pointed out that <v Patrick Keleher>her organization is local chapter joined the lawsuit against Polly Williams. <v Patrick Keleher>And I'm beginning to understand why, if it's true, the NAACP, ma'am, has <v Patrick Keleher>lost 100000 members in the last 10 years because the civil rights issue <v Patrick Keleher>of education in the 90s is definitely educational choice.

<v Patrick Keleher>We have two thirds of the kids in the Chicago public schools are poverty level <v Patrick Keleher>kids. 88 percent are minority yet half of their teachers <v Patrick Keleher>go to private schools at twice the rate of the general population. <v John Callaway>When you say you half their teachers go to private schools, that have their children go to private schools? <v Patrick Keleher>Half their teachers send their kids, send their kids to private schools. <v John Callaway>Well, let me stop you right there, because you've said, Ms. <v John Callaway>McClure, do you want to respond to that? Is that why the, I mean is it true that the <v John Callaway>NAACP has lost a 100000 members? <v Phyllis McClure>Well, I just have to make a factual correction, Mr. Keleher. <v Phyllis McClure>I do not work for the NAACP. The Legal Defense Fund's a separate organization <v Phyllis McClure>and has been for 50 years. <v Phyllis McClure>We don't have membership branches, so address your remarks to somebody else. <v Patrick Keleher>That's a distinction without a difference as far as I'm concerned. <v John Callaway>OK. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>John, I'll be glad to talk a little bit about it if you if you wish. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>The NAACP joined the lawsuit precisely because the choice legislation <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>passed by the Wisconsin legislature did not provide for protection for youngsters. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>To wit, the issue of selective admissions criteria was not addressed <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>in the in the legislation.

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>The department, the US Department of Education wrote an opinion that said that, in fact, <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>these private schools were not responsible for handling special educational <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>children, that they were the responsibility of the public school system. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>And the legislation did not take into account any of the desegregation efforts of the <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Milwaukee public schools. That is why the NAACP entered the lawsuit. <v John Callaway>We have to move along. And the next question that we'll ask is what if you could design a <v John Callaway>system that could take urban children from the lowest academic rankings <v John Callaway>and place them squarely in the middle of the pack where public funds support excellent <v John Callaway>education, parents and teachers feel empowered, and parents choose the educational <v John Callaway>opportunity for their kids. Sounds impossible? <v John Callaway>Well, choice advocates claim that to find this educational Camelot look no further <v John Callaway>than East Harlem, New York. [music] <v Royal Kennedy>East Harlem, New York City, better known as El Barrio, this congested area encompasses <v Royal Kennedy>only two square miles just north of Manhattan's Upper East Side.

<v Royal Kennedy>Its population is predominantly Hispanic, African-American and poor. <v Royal Kennedy>Like all poverty ravaged communities, it is plagued with problems. <v John Falco>You have all the things that you wouldn't want in any community. <v John Falco>You have violence. You have drugs. <v John Falco>You have an economically depressed area. <v John Falco>You have single family, single parent homes. <v John Falco>You have child abuse, child neglect. <v John Falco>And what we're very fortunate to have are schools that <v John Falco>serve as an oasis for these youngsters. <v Royal Kennedy>16 years ago, El Barrio youngsters had the worst schools in the city. <v Royal Kennedy>Today, East Harlem district schools rank firmly in the middle of New York City's 32 <v Royal Kennedy>districts. District educators credit their salvation to choice. <v Marcelino Rodriguez>The choice evolved as a result of teachers with a dream, with an idea. <v Marcelino Rodriguez>It was teacher driven, student centered and the 1975 in the middle <v Marcelino Rodriguez>of the crisis that we were undergoing, budget wise choice and <v Marcelino Rodriguez>alternative programs started to evolve.

<v Royal Kennedy>What evolved were 24 junior high schools, each offering a different program from which <v Royal Kennedy>all East Harlem students and their parents choose. <v Royal Kennedy>One is the Harbor School for Performing Arts. <v Royal Kennedy>[music] <v Leslie Moore>What we try to do is provide an opportunity for youngsters from <v Leslie Moore>tough neighborhoods to come into this place that's safe where <v Leslie Moore>they can get an education. <v Leslie Moore>We try to motivate children through performing arts so that they can succeed in their <v Leslie Moore>academics. [chorus] <v Stormy McNair>Well <v Stormy McNair>the academic program is very good. Um there there is a <v Stormy McNair>lot of hard work, but the teachers will carry you through it step by step. <v Leslie Moore>I think Harbor is a special place for students to come. <v Leslie Moore>It's a place where students make relationships that last for a long time. <v Christina Hawkins>Here everybody cares about each other.

<v Christina Hawkins>Its like a family 'cause the school is so small so everybody gets to know each other. <v Royal Kennedy>The sense of family is common in the alternative schools, including Central Park East <v Royal Kennedy>Secondary School, created by former Chicago teacher Deborah Meier. <v Deborah Meier>The staff and the parents and the students aren't uh share, at least <v Deborah Meier>on some level, a common viewpoint and are there together by choice on a voluntary <v Deborah Meier>basis. <v Gwen Paige>I like the philosophy here at these schools. <v Gwen Paige>It says that children can develop at their own pace. <v Gwen Paige>It says they can be creative. <v Parnell Jones>I know the children in this school and people in the school also with including myself, <v Parnell Jones>like to be here. In most schools, they want to be someplace else. <v Ricky Harris>All right, boys and girls, let's do our thing. I like the people I work with. <v Ricky Harris>The fact that teachers in this building are involved in learning and are involved <v Ricky Harris>in growing and helping each other learn. <v Royal Kennedy>This supportive climate was created by a maverick administration who provided a buffer

<v Royal Kennedy>zone around the staff and students, giving the alternative schools independence and <v Royal Kennedy>time to develop. <v Carlos Medina>We we came up with the one with one basic assumption, and that is that we had to create <v Carlos Medina>good schools. At schools where kids would want to go to, schools <v Carlos Medina>that parents would want to send their kids to, and schools where teachers would want to <v Carlos Medina>teach. <v John Falco>So once you had the kind of ownership that was was being <v John Falco>brought about through the choice system, the schools began to flourish. <v Royal Kennedy>Today, 64 percent of East Harlem students read at or above grade level <v Royal Kennedy>versus only 15 percent in 1974. <v Royal Kennedy>Daily attendance at the junior high schools is 92 percent, up from 65 <v Royal Kennedy>percent. 83 percent of its students graduate from high school as compared <v Royal Kennedy>to 54 percent in all of New York City. <v Royal Kennedy>Additionally, students from all over the city transfer into East Harlem schools. <v Sy Fliegel>They're not coming into East Harlem because they like their kids to have an experience in

<v Sy Fliegel>a poor community. <v Sy Fliegel>They were coming into East Harlem because they felt they were quality schools providing <v Sy Fliegel>quality education. <v Royal Kennedy>16 years into its evolution, East Harlem's secret is out. <v Royal Kennedy>Educators around the country are looking at District 4 as alternative. <v Royal Kennedy>And three other New York City school districts are planning similar choice programs. <v Carlos Medina>Anyone that doesn't believe that choice does not want that choice, does not work <v Carlos Medina>for minority communities, should look at District 4 as a model. <v Carlos Medina>Again, as a public school choice model. <v John Callaway>Ms. Davenport, I know that you and others here have many serious reservations <v John Callaway>about choice,, but you got to love East Harlem. <v John Callaway>It's in the public school system. They haven't gone outside and left any poor kids <v John Callaway>behind. See, those reading scores are up. <v John Callaway>See empowerment. Come on. <v Suzanne Davenport>Let's look at a few more facts, John. <v John Callaway>You can sign on to that. Do you have reservations? <v Suzanne Davenport>Deep reservations.

<v John Callaway>Okay. <v Suzanne Davenport>There are a lot of things about some of the schools in Central Central Park, East and so <v Suzanne Davenport>on and District 4 that are attractive. <v Suzanne Davenport>There's been a 10 year history of the schools evolving their own programs, which we'd <v Suzanne Davenport>like to see in Chicago under the local school councils. <v Suzanne Davenport>However, what your spot does not tell us is that there's a vast <v Suzanne Davenport>range in reading scores among those 24 schools within East Harlem. <v Suzanne Davenport>The percentages of students reading at grade level in the 24 schools <v Suzanne Davenport>in East Harlem range from the 30th percentile to the 90th. <v John Callaway>But is there any pattern of who has the higher ones in the lower ones? <v John Callaway>In other words, is is there a two track system? <v John Callaway>Even within that, East. Multitrack? <v Suzanne Davenport>Yes, it's tracking within all of the programs of the 24. <v Suzanne Davenport>And who makes the final choice as to which students go into which programs? <v Suzanne Davenport>The parents? No. The school administrators make those decisions. <v John Callaway>And are you saying some of those kids are looked upon as desirable for <v John Callaway>this school and others are kind of? <v Suzanne Davenport>Well they're they're tracked by ability as measured quote by standardized tests and <v Suzanne Davenport>previous grades and so on. Finally, there are no choice programs for

<v Suzanne Davenport>bilingual students, which average about 6 percent in the New York population. <v Suzanne Davenport>And there are no choice programs for special education children, which are 10 percent <v Suzanne Davenport>of the population in District 4. <v John Callaway>With those reservations acknowledged, what is it you like about East Harlem? <v Suzanne Davenport>I like that for 10 years, small scale schools <v Suzanne Davenport>have been able to evolve their own programs under a great deal <v Suzanne Davenport>of teacher and staff autonomy. But there has not been the kind of parent community <v Suzanne Davenport>input into that autonomy which we value here in Chicago and think it's critical. <v John Callaway>Miss Broomfield, the the School Reform Act that <v John Callaway>the Chicago public school system is now trying to live up to and make <v John Callaway>into a reality, has a small section of it that says that <v John Callaway>the Chicago public schools not only are undertaking this huge empowerment <v John Callaway>of parents at the local school district level, but that they also <v John Callaway>should try to move towards some kind of a choice program above <v John Callaway>and beyond the ones you've already articulated for us this evening.

<v John Callaway>What do you think those might be? Do you see anything in the East Harlem experiment, in <v John Callaway>the Milwaukee experiment that you think should be discussed in the Chicago <v John Callaway>context? <v Mary E. Broomfield>Well, I don't think we have to go all the way to East Harlem. <v Mary E. Broomfield>We have an outstanding performing arts programs, math and science academy. <v Mary E. Broomfield>We have a diversity of programs that are functioning extremely well in Chicago. <v Mary E. Broomfield>The problem, of course, is something that has been identified earlier, it does not <v Mary E. Broomfield>provide the quality education for the entire population. <v Mary E. Broomfield>The reform bill says that we are to expand open enrollment within the Chicago public <v Mary E. Broomfield>school system. That can be done again within the Chicago public school <v Mary E. Broomfield>system. And it also must be done in a manner that strengthens the neighborhood <v Mary E. Broomfield>school, that empowers the school so that the neighborhood schools will be able to offer <v Mary E. Broomfield>the same diversity of programing and compete and market their programs <v Mary E. Broomfield>just as the magnet schools have done. <v John Callaway>So you don't you don't see Chicago going out into the scholarship or voucher area? <v Mary E. Broomfield>Not no no.

<v John Callaway>You don't see that as necessary. <v Mary E. Broomfield>I not only don't see it as necessary. <v Mary E. Broomfield>I don't see it as feasible. I don't see it as contributing to our basic <v Mary E. Broomfield>premise and that is to provide educational services to improve outcomes for our children. <v John Callaway>Let's go to another. <v Phyllis McClure>Mr. Callaway can I ask a question? <v John Callaway>Well, just a second. I want to go to a member of our studio audience. <v John Callaway>Tell us who you are and what your view on choice is. <v Bernie Novan>My name is Bernie Novan, I'm with the Parents United for Responsible Education. <v Bernie Novan>I'm a social worker in the schools and I'm adamantly opposed to the voucher system. <v Bernie Novan>However, I support local school choice. <v Bernie Novan>I have worked with many parents who have virtually been prisoners at their local <v Bernie Novan>schools. The schools hating them and they hating their schools. <v Bernie Novan>I feel parents should have the choice to attend any school within walking distance of <v Bernie Novan>their school, perhaps one and a half miles from where they live. <v Bernie Novan>There would be no bussing involved. <v Bernie Novan>There would be an element of competition. It wouldn't open up the dangerous doors to a <v Bernie Novan>voucher system. <v John Callaway>Thank you very much. And Phyllis McClure back in Washington. <v John Callaway>You had a question? <v Phyllis McClure>Yes, I wanted to ask about the Chicago program. <v Phyllis McClure>Why is it limited just within the city of Chicago?

<v Phyllis McClure>Why can't students choose to go to public schools in the suburbs? <v Phyllis McClure>And secondly of all. <v John Callaway>Wait, wait, wait. Let's let's let Mary Broommfield respond to that. <v John Callaway>Ms. Broomfield [laughter]. <v Mary E. Broomfield>When the consent decree was first approved in 1981, a metropolitan exchange was <v Mary E. Broomfield>a very strong component of that. <v Mary E. Broomfield>However, the supportive legislation was never approved. <v Mary E. Broomfield>So that the costs for a metropolitan exchange was never approved by the state <v Mary E. Broomfield>and that portion of the plan was never implemented. <v Mary E. Broomfield>At this point, it was never implemented because of cost but <v John Callaway>Could that be, could that be. <v Phyllis McClure>Well, I'm not asking about your school desegregation plan I'm asking about your Illinois <v Phyllis McClure>state law or the state school board's proposal for choice. <v Phyllis McClure>Why is it limited just to within the city of Chicago? <v Phyllis McClure>Why not between districts? <v Mary E. Broomfield>Because when you have exchange programs between districts, it's usually accompanied <v Mary E. Broomfield>by a supportive finances, between as afforded by the state, <v Mary E. Broomfield>between the receiving district and the sending district. <v Mary E. Broomfield>And the state legislature have never sen- provided that kind of support

<v Mary E. Broomfield>at the time that the consent decree was written. <v Mary E. Broomfield>It was seen as possible. <v Mary E. Broomfield>I would venture to say now that the Chicago school system does not even want to <v Mary E. Broomfield>participate in the Metropolitan exchange even if the state approved the finances. <v Phyllis McClure>Does that mean that the state legislature has locked Chicago kids within the city <v Phyllis McClure>and they can't go outside? <v Mary E. Broomfield>There's no financial support for it, but we also. <v John Callaway>I'm sorry Mr. Deanes wants to comment. <v James Deanes>Some of those same suburbs that we're talking about, though, have not welcomed Chicago <v James Deanes>minority children with open arms. <v James Deanes>We have to be realistic. <v John Callaway>We're talk about race relations here, aren't we? <v James Deanes>We're talking about a lot of things that includes ra-race relations. <v Mary E. Broomfield>Well, that's that's what I think the hidden agenda. <v Mary E. Broomfield>Mr. Dean. That's why they don't want black kids from the city of Chicago coming out to <v Mary E. Broomfield>the suburbs. <v James Deanes>And I'm saying is is a father of five black kids. <v James Deanes>I would much rather have them walk to the neighborhood school that they've attended <v James Deanes>since all five have attended Chicago public schools. <v James Deanes>I'm also saying as a parent that I think that the systems, whether they be

<v James Deanes>the state legislature or whether they are school board, ought to provide the resources <v James Deanes>at the local school so that my child has what they call quality <v James Deanes>or competitive educational opportunity. <v John Callaway>Patrick Keleher. <v Patrick Keleher>You can counter argue that the uh the system that we have right now, the <v Patrick Keleher>public school system as it's structured, given us captive market, two thirds of <v Patrick Keleher>low income kids, poverty level kids is the new plantation. <v Patrick Keleher>And that's not my language. It's from from one of the top African-American reform leaders <v Patrick Keleher>in the city of Chicago. She's in your audience right now. <v John Callaway>I want to go back to. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead with your comment. <v Patrick Keleher>I would like anyone on the panel to explain to me how when we structure <v Patrick Keleher>social institutions, it is equitable, it is fair, to <v Patrick Keleher>to keep in thrall one large section of the population growing, <v Patrick Keleher>the low income section of the population. <v Patrick Keleher>The only difference between them and their teachers, for example, who send their kids to <v Patrick Keleher>private schools is the lack of money.

<v Patrick Keleher>Isn't it unfair? <v John Callaway>But but but, Mr. Keleher, what do you say to those who say that the president's emphasis, <v John Callaway>instead of being on choice, that is in terms of an escape valve in which you can get out <v John Callaway>of the system? Why shouldn't every public school be a school of choice? <v John Callaway>Why not focus on that? <v James Deanes>Right. <v Patrick Keleher>What, that's my question? <v John Callaway>Yes. <v Patrick Keleher>It every school, every public school should be a school of choice. <v Patrick Keleher>We want we want local school councils to be able to opt out of the system. <v Patrick Keleher>But we also want all parents. <v Patrick Keleher>We want to redirect the tax flow to the consumer away from the provider. <v John Callaway>But what about the parent who doesn't have the knowledge or as Mr. Deanes called it, "the <v John Callaway>resources" to even make that choice and that child is now left behind, <v John Callaway>as those parents who do have the wherewithal and the knowledge to go shopping for schools <v John Callaway>get their kids out. What about that child who is defenseless and left behind in that <v John Callaway>school? <v Patrick Keleher>John, John we Teach America label that the abandonment argument. <v Patrick Keleher>And if you look at it, the middle class has abandoned those kids.

<v Patrick Keleher>Their teachers have abandoned those kids to the tune of 50 percent. <v Patrick Keleher>But the real point is. <v John Callaway>Welll do you want more abandonment then? <v Patrick Keleher>Now it's a it's but it's in the last analysis, it's a patronizing argument that <v Patrick Keleher>poor people can't make these sorts of decisions. <v Patrick Keleher>Then maybe they shouldn't vote for president. [applause] <v James Deanes>It is just always interesting for me to hear people who <v James Deanes>are so presumptuous to speak about the lack of membership in the <v James Deanes>NAACP, to also speak about minority participation, to single <v James Deanes>out one African American in our community who supports their choices. <v James Deanes>Yesterday at the Chicago or Urban League, over 30 <v James Deanes>African American people that I know, organizations <v James Deanes>that I know spoke out against this choice notion that you're espousing. <v James Deanes>I'm saying that it should be left up to those people involved to determine their own <v James Deanes>destiny. <v John Callaway>I want to go back to Dr, I want to go back to Dr. Robert Peterkin. <v John Callaway>Dr. Peterkin you wanted to get back in the conversation?

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Well John, I think it's the dial- the dialoge we just heard is what hurts the whole the <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>whole issue of whether or not you ought to have public or private choice. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Here in Milwaukee we had, in fact, contracted with private schools for well over a decade <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>for certain children that we could not educate well. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>It's the reason that you have to shy away from it, even if you believe that choice within <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>the public sector would be would be healthy. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>I'd like to go back to the panelists who indicated that you really have to magnetize all <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>schools. So those who want their children to go in the neighborhoods can go in the <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>neighborhoods, those who want their children to go across the city can go across the <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>city. We've we've eliminated the term magnet schools in Milwaukee because it clearly <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>denotes a two tier system. We've gone to a [applause] process that we call <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>the equity fund that enables those schools that have been disenfranchised to apply for <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>funding, to change their schools dramatically, to make them more powerful for children. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Finally, there are ways to get information to to those that don't traditionally get <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>information. And by the way, those folks don't vote for president either. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>The issue, if they had, we would have a different president. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>[applause] The issue in Cambridge. <v Patrick Keleher>You'll have very different superintendents in Milwaukee very soon, sir.

<v Dr. Robert Peterkin>Yes, they will. But that's by my choice, not yours. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>[crowd oh-ing] <v Patrick Keleher>Polly Williams, polly Williams will be there after you. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>I doubt it seriously. And that's not helpful to the dialoge. <v Dr. Robert Peterkin>And that's why your cause is going to fail. <v Patrick Keleher>Yours us full of the nuancing we don't need in this discussion. <v John Callaway>We have another member of the audience that wishes to speak. <v John Callaway>Who are you, sir? <v Laslos Anderson>My name is Laslos Anderson, and I'm a professor of education at University of Illinois, <v Laslos Anderson>Chicago. I'm here making a personal statement rather than an <v Laslos Anderson>institutional statement. <v Laslos Anderson>Two points. One that I think that the debate needs to be <v Laslos Anderson>couched in different terms than choice and the language of choice. <v Laslos Anderson>I don't think that there's an any real difference of opinion between individuals <v Laslos Anderson>as to the need for the enlargement of choice. <v Laslos Anderson>That is not really the question. I think the question really is the need <v Laslos Anderson>for improving schools where they are rather than providing the opportunity <v Laslos Anderson>for students to opt out of the system by voting with one's feet. <v John Callaway>Okay, thank you, Mr. Keller. I want to go back and follow up on the earlier point and <v John Callaway>and ask you if a genuine market does exist.

<v John Callaway>Because when I asked about those persons who have trouble making choices and so on, so <v John Callaway>forth, I didn't mean to be patronizing. I only wanted to suggest that because this is <v John Callaway>perhaps early on, that it is difficult to get that information even if <v John Callaway>you were motivated. And some people, I think, are not. <v John Callaway>I think that's a fact. And I don't mean to be patronizing about it. <v John Callaway>How much of a market does exist and is competition in the educational <v John Callaway>arena really healthy or do we really need more cooperation? <v Patrick Keleher>They're not mutually exclusive. You can play in a football team and be competitive and <v Patrick Keleher>cooperative at the same time, but that's not the point. <v Patrick Keleher>The information can easily be designed. <v Patrick Keleher>The proper information channels can easily be designed into any sensitively designed <v Patrick Keleher>piece of public policy. But your first question is what is the market? <v Patrick Keleher>And this is one of the best kept secrets in Chicago. <v Patrick Keleher>We have in this town right here in River City, 448 schools, John, <v Patrick Keleher>non-government schools serving 125000 children, almost <v Patrick Keleher>as 23 percent of the total go to non-government schools.

<v Patrick Keleher>That's the market that could begin to take up the slack. <v Patrick Keleher>Then we've got people like Jack Weast in the audience with his alternative schools <v Patrick Keleher>network just waiting to get some tax dollars instead of stringing stringing <v Patrick Keleher>funds together. So, so so, Jack. <v Patrick Keleher>So. So Jack would have a chance to remediate high school <v Patrick Keleher>dropouts and solve some of the problems that we have. <v John Callaway>So you would. So you're saying that there's a market that we haven't really had <v John Callaway>adequately acknowledged and then would you and to help you with the argument, would it <v John Callaway>also be say that in order to be fair to those of you who want more choice to let you <v John Callaway>mature an even better market, that is give you some time and not be judgemental <v John Callaway>on you on the first day of a Milwaukee experiment? <v Phyllis McClure>Mr. Calloway? <v John Callaway>Yes. <v Phyllis McClure>Did I not read that the archdiocesan schools are closing down <v Phyllis McClure>in the center city of Chicago? <v Phyllis McClure>Is the supply shrinking of private schools? <v John Callaway>Mr. Keleher? <v James Deanes>The funds are shrinking from those parents. <v Patrick Keleher>Ma'am, the um the archdiocesan Catholic schools serve a uh they <v Patrick Keleher>mirror the population, those inner city schools, are poverty level schools, even though

<v Patrick Keleher>those diocesan schools can educate an elementary kid at 1500 bucks, fully <v Patrick Keleher>loaded cost versus 5300 dollars for the public schools in <v Patrick Keleher>3000 versus maybe 7500 or 8000 per public school highschooler. <v Patrick Keleher>Those schools are closing just because people don't have the money. <v John Callaway>Mr. Keleher, you mentioned Jack Weast of Alternative Schools Network. <v John Callaway>And he's here. Please help us with this discussion. <v John Callaway>What do you need? and What do you propose? <v Jack Weast>Well, Pats, a good friend. We have some disagreements on this. <v Jack Weast>Basically, schools are places in the most successful schools are places, not necessarily <v Jack Weast>buildings, but they're really places where relationships between teachers and kids and <v Jack Weast>parents can really work in cooperation. The school system, as it's structured now where <v Jack Weast>there's local school councils that can kind of cook, I think develop the issue of trying <v Jack Weast>to develop some sort of financing that will support that. <v Jack Weast>Some of the issues we've raised is that not individual vouchers, because I think with <v Jack Weast>individual vouchers, you've got a good example at the higher education level, where <v Jack Weast>hundreds of thousands of adults have gone into for profit schools and

<v Jack Weast>almost bankrupted the entire system, which was basically individual voucher system with <v Jack Weast>no safeguards. <v John Callaway>But you have a different notion of the public school. <v Jack Weast>Might be to look at where you have public schools. <v Jack Weast>But what what is a public school when you have financing to save a group of 200 parents <v Jack Weast>who join and develop a kind of a school that becomes a public school, I think with Dr. <v Jack Weast>Peterkin's ideas that there's protections for these kids, but they're still public <v Jack Weast>schools. Our schools in many ways are public. <v Jack Weast>They have public dollars they have public accountability. <v Jack Weast>We have to incorporate not for profit and private. <v Jack Weast>They would just soon be public schools with certain kind of protections for the kids. <v Jack Weast>You can have abuses in our schools as you can have abuses in public schools. <v Jack Weast>You need to have strict regulations, I think, on some some strict oversight of these <v Jack Weast>schools. But I think one of the issues you want to think about a different kinds of <v Jack Weast>financing that I would not support an individual voucher, but maybe a supportive system <v Jack Weast>and you a charter school where you have 50 to 100 parents who then form a school and it <v Jack Weast>becomes a public school within regulations. <v John Callaway>A new kind of public school?

<v Jack Weast>Well, as a public school, you have accountability, public financing in much the same way <v Jack Weast>you have a regular public school. <v Patrick Keleher>That's one of our proposals. <v John Callaway>Okay. Phyllis McClure, I want to go back to you in Washington and put the question to you <v John Callaway>this way. <v John Callaway>Why, if if choice is such an undesirable <v John Callaway>thing, in your opinion, why is it that so many teachers, for example, <v John Callaway>in the city of Chicago, opt out of the public school system for choice? <v John Callaway>What is it that they know that the rest of us don't know? <v John Callaway>[laughter and applause] <v Phyllis McClure>I'd say that those teachers don't have any commitment to their schools and to their <v Phyllis McClure>students. That's one thing I know. [applause] And <v Phyllis McClure>sec second, I suppose that they have, because if the teacher <v Phyllis McClure>raises the union has gotten them, they have the funds to pay for the private school. <v Phyllis McClure>[applause] <v John Callaway>You really want to be that harsh on those teachers? <v Phyllis McClure>Well, if you tell me <v John Callaway>Anybody want to defend those teachers? <v John Callaway>Mr. Kelhler?

<v Patrick Keleher>Why shouldn't those teachers have, this is this is a time when the Soviet Union is <v Patrick Keleher>discussing voucher systems. <v Patrick Keleher>And here we're getting this anti-market argument from the NAACP, which used to represent <v Patrick Keleher>civil rights for the point of the spearhead. <v James Deanes>There you go making assumptions again. <v Patrick Keleher>This is double talk. This is double-talk. [applause] <v John Callaway>Mr. Deanes. <v James Deanes>And I certainly don't make. <v Phyllis McClure>Mr. Calloway, how many of those teachers actually live in the city <v Phyllis McClure>of Chicago as opposed to the suburbs? <v John Callaway>Mrs. Broomfield, perhaps you can help us with that. <v Mary E. Broomfield>No, I'm afraid I don't have any percentages on the percentage of teachers that reside <v Mary E. Broomfield>outside of the city. <v John Callaway>Ms. Davenport? <v Suzanne Davenport>We don't have the statistics. It's illegal. <v Suzanne Davenport>They were grandfathered in as of 1981 and it's been legal since, but the statistics <v Suzanne Davenport>aren't kept. <v John Callaway>Mr. Deanes you wanted to get in a final word. <v James Deanes>My word was that again and wouldn't want want to be presumptuous. <v James Deanes>And we certainly don't want to beat up on Pat anymore than necessary. <v James Deanes>[laughter] <v Patrick Keleher>I got thick skin. <v James Deanes>But the thing is, when you talk about the choice plan that <v James Deanes>that's being promoted now, when it came up in the education summit, which is where the

<v James Deanes>whole school reform piece started when it came up in Springfield, when it comes up <v James Deanes>in educational circles, I've talked to Dr. Bright, I've talked to Dr. Bailey, <v James Deanes>I've talked to the people at Urban League, et cetera, et cetera. <v James Deanes>People are saying those same people that you say you speak for, you allude that you speak <v James Deanes>for. I said we don't want it. <v James Deanes>We want curriculum changes. <v James Deanes>We want educational opportunities within the Chicago public school system. <v John Callaway>Mr. Deanes. On that note, we thank you very much. And we thank all of you very much for <v John Callaway>being with us. The Bush administration has made school choice one of the hallmarks of its <v John Callaway>educational program. As you have seen this evening, there is no easy consensus <v John Callaway>on the issue of school choice. <v John Callaway>On this program, we have only begun the conversation about these complex issues, but <v John Callaway>we hope it has been a useful and productive beginning. <v John Callaway>I'm John Callaway. Thank you for being with us. <v John Callaway>[music] <v Announcer>Shopping for schools. Educational choice in the 90s as part of WTTW's

<v Announcer>ongoing commitment to coverage of school reform in Chicago.