Over Easy; No. 5019; Widows and Widowers

<v Speaker>Over Easy with host Jim Hartz and Mary Martin. <v Jim Hartz>Hello and welcome again to Over Easy. Remember, back in the 1950s and 60s, <v Jim Hartz>Ozzie and Harriet Nelson became one of America's most endearing and enduring couples, <v Jim Hartz>embodying all the fun and foibles of modern marriage. <v Mary Martin>Everybody remembers Ozzie and Harriet's long running TV series. <v Mary Martin>And we have a scene from a film called Here Come The Nelsons that became the <v Mary Martin>pilot for their show. Now, let's take a look at one of these priceless moments from <v Mary Martin>that film. When you see it right down. <v Jim Hartz>Ozzie and Harriet were married in 1935.

<v Jim Hartz>When Ozzie died in 1976 after 41 years of a happy <v Jim Hartz>marriage, Harriet Nelson had to make one of the most difficult transitions any of us <v Jim Hartz>face. The adjustment to widowhood. <v Jim Hartz>Today, we'll be examining that adjustment, one that millions of women, as well as men who <v Jim Hartz>suffered the loss of a spouse must make every year. <v Mary Martin>I n addition, we'll be visiting with Harriet Nelson. <v Mary Martin>We'll talk to writer Richard Meryman, whose book Hope: A Loss Survived <v Mary Martin>tells of his experience after he lost his wife of 23 years. <v Jim Hartz>And we'll be joined by noted psychologist and grief counselor Dr. James Peterson. <v Jim Hartz>But first, let's welcome one of America's favorite entertainers. <v Jim Hartz>Ladies and gentlemen, Harriet Nelson. <v Jim Hartz>?inaudible? I can't pass up the opportunity to get a kiss from you. <v Harriet Nelson>Oh, what a lovely compliment. <v Mary Martin>Wasn't that funny? Did you see the film? <v Harriet Nelson>Don't you love him in that? <v Mary Martin>But - I love you both, but - The timing is so - it's just as marvelous now <v Mary Martin>as when you made it then.

<v Harriet Nelson>He was for real. <v Mary Martin>So that's the next question I was going to ask. <v Mary Martin>Were you the real Harriet Nelson at home and <v Mary Martin>on the screen? <v Harriet Nelson>Well, maybe I wasn't as long-suffering as I was on the screen. <v Harriet Nelson>I had my moments. <v Mary Martin>You did? But it was your pers- I mean, it really was more or less your - <v Harriet Nelson>I think it was. I think it indicated - our show at that time indicated family <v Harriet Nelson>life at that time. Lots of people now will - will <v Harriet Nelson>equate it with today's family. <v Harriet Nelson>But there is no connection. <v Harriet Nelson>Things were so different then. Now we are - I think people are a fragmented family. <v Harriet Nelson>It's no one's fault particularly. <v Harriet Nelson>It's just that work takes us thousands of miles apart. <v Harriet Nelson>Like take my family, for instance. <v Harriet Nelson>I have one boy in New York now and another one I think is in Nova Scotia. <v Harriet Nelson>I called him night before last and he was home for one day. <v Harriet Nelson>And I said, where's your next tour? <v Harriet Nelson>He said, well, we start in Nova Scotia. So that was -

<v Mary Martin>Ricky? <v Harriet Nelson>That's right. <v Mary Martin>He - he has his own band, doesn't he? <v Harriet Nelson>Yes, he has his own group. <v Mary Martin>Marvelous. Oh, you must be so proud of them, though, because - the other one. <v Mary Martin>What does he do? <v Harriet Nelson>He's a director. <v Mary Martin>A director. So they're still in the in the business? <v Harriet Nelson>Oh, yes. Well, you know, they started when they were children. <v Harriet Nelson>And you don't give it up that easily. <v Harriet Nelson>You know, they've learned along the way. <v Harriet Nelson>And David is a very fine director, as a matter of fact. <v Harriet Nelson>He directed, oh, six or eight Ozzie and Harriet's. <v Harriet Nelson>People didn't believe that because he always thought that Ozzy was standing on the <v Harriet Nelson>sidelines. But he really wasn't. <v Jim Hartz>Let me ask you some about your family life, especially your relationship with Ozzy during <v Jim Hartz>those years. There are always certain situations where you got to disagree. <v Jim Hartz>You're playing this warm couple on television. <v Jim Hartz>Did you ever have any serious disagreements off camera about your lives or what <v Jim Hartz>you were going to do in the film? <v Harriet Nelson>No. Oh, no. You mean about about the show? <v Harriet Nelson>About the show? No. Whatever he said. <v Harriet Nelson>We had an agreement at this point. Whatever he said on the set went and whatever

<v Harriet Nelson>I said at home, you know. <v Mary Martin>That's marvelous. <v Harriet Nelson>And I made it stick. <v Mary Martin>Well, you'd probably have to. I mean, my husband and I were in business together. <v Mary Martin>I. <v Harriet Nelson>I know that you were. <v Mary Martin>But you and and Ozzy were together for married for 41 <v Mary Martin>years,. <v Harriet Nelson>40 years, uh-huh. <v Mary Martin>I was almost 34. But we - you have to have that. <v Mary Martin>You know, one - one is the boss. <v Mary Martin>When we first married, they said, you know, is your husband going to <v Mary Martin>have two pair of pa - a pair of pants? I said, we have two pair of pants to every coat in <v Mary Martin>our family. <v Harriet Nelson>The same thing was true of us. Well, there can't be there can't be two bosses on the set. <v Harriet Nelson>You know, that'll just never work. <v Mary Martin>Never. <v Jim Hartz>Did you ever have any conflicts in the business side of your relationship? <v Harriet Nelson>No, Ozzy - he always discussed everything with me. <v Harriet Nelson>All decisions were made together, made at home together. <v Mary Martin>Did he do the writing, too?

<v Harriet Nelson>He was the head writer and editor of the show. <v Harriet Nelson>Yes. Uh-Huh. <v Mary Martin>Isn't that ?inaudible? <v Harriet Nelson>It was a - It was a seven day a week job. <v Harriet Nelson>It didn't seem like much, but we shot five days a week. <v Jim Hartz>Wow. <v Harriet Nelson>Well, we did - we did so much location. <v Harriet Nelson>You know, we didn't - we weren't on tape. <v Harriet Nelson>We did it on film. And we had to get outside of the house. <v Harriet Nelson>So they - they said in Los Angeles they were going to rename Griffith Park "Nelson Park," <v Harriet Nelson>because we did so much stuff out there. <v Jim Hartz>After Ozzy died, you had to take a much more active role <v Jim Hartz>in running the business. <v Harriet Nelson>Well, it was - <v Jim Hartz>What was that period like for you? <v Harriet Nelson>The business, as such, stopped with his death, you know. <v Harriet Nelson>As a matter of fact, that - made it doubly hard because <v Harriet Nelson>there wasn't anything to turn to. Work stopped at the same time, you know. <v Harriet Nelson>And that was very difficult. <v Mary Martin>Aren't you performing now in movies? <v Harriet Nelson>Oh, once in a while. I'll do - I'll do a picture now and then, or <v Harriet Nelson>I do a fantasy island or.

<v Harriet Nelson>Oh, aloha, paradise. <v Harriet Nelson>Yes. You know, when things come up that I think are going to be fun. <v Mary Martin>Harriet, didn't you sing? <v Harriet Nelson>At one time. <v Mary Martin>I saw you. <v Harriet Nelson>Where? <v Mary Martin>I saw it. I saw it. I think I was still in Weatherford - hadn't quite gotten <v Mary Martin>out to Hollywood then. <v Mary Martin>But, you know, I went very early to Hollywood and I did see you in a movie. <v Mary Martin>I'm really sure. <v Harriet Nelson>Oh, that was - <v Mary Martin>You sang at the brig - Broadcaster - <v Harriet Nelson>How dear of you to remember. ?inaudible? <v Mary Martin>I just adored it. <v Harriet Nelson>Oh, thank you. Well, it was with Rogers and Astaire. <v Mary Martin>That's right! <v Harriet Nelson>It was Follow the Fleet. <v Mary Martin>I saw it in Weatherford. I was teaching dancing and I went home and practiced how to sing <v Mary Martin>just like you. [Laughter] I did. <v Harriet Nelson>Did you have Randy Scott put his arm around you when you finished? <v Mary Martin>No, I didn't. <v Mary Martin>No I didn't ?inaudible?. <v Jim Hartz>I want you to meet two other guests that we have with us today who are going to help <v Jim Hartz>us explore the subject. One is Richard Meryman. <v Jim Hartz>He is a former editor for Life magazine who lost his wife to <v Jim Hartz>cancer and rebuilt his life and went on to write about his experience.

<v Jim Hartz>And with him is a close friend of Over Easy's, Dr. James Peterson, the psychologist <v Jim Hartz>and grief counselor who's helped hundreds of men and women adjust to the loss of a loved <v Jim Hartz>one. Ladies and gentlemen, Richard Meryman and Dr. James Peterson. <v Mary Martin>Welcome. Welcome. Oh, that means something. That means something good. That means <v Mary Martin>somebody's going to get married. <v Harriet Nelson>Yes, it does. Dr. Peterson, will you marry me? <v Mary Martin>Now's the time. Say yes. <v Harriet Nelson>Dr. Peterson, how important is it for a person who's lost a loved one or lost a spouse, <v Harriet Nelson>regain his identity in that regard? <v Harriet Nelson>?inaudible? identity? <v Dr. James Peterson>It is the critical factor. <v Dr. James Peterson>Because previously, if it's been a long marriage, one is merged with the other. <v Dr. James Peterson>It's like an amputation. <v Dr. James Peterson>And most of your self is gone. <v Dr. James Peterson>So that to get a new identity <v Dr. James Peterson>becomes very -. <v Jim Hartz>How do you do that?

<v Dr. James Peterson>Well, you do - number one, in terms of personality, you <v Dr. James Peterson>have to let the memory of the other person recede into the background. <v Dr. James Peterson>They're still there. I think you would both agree that always our <v Dr. James Peterson>past mates are part of our lives, but they aren't close. <v Dr. James Peterson>Right after the death, they are. <v Dr. James Peterson>We talk with them and so forth. So that our first rule in <v Dr. James Peterson>doing therapy - grief work - is to make some distancing <v Dr. James Peterson>and the bitterness and the sadness recedes. <v Dr. James Peterson>And then the mellowness and the joy and the reminiscences become part of it. <v Dr. James Peterson>That's the first thing. <v Jim Hartz>But I'm not sure that I understand how that reestablishes your identity. <v Dr. James Peterson>That's the ground on which then you're free enough from always <v Dr. James Peterson>thinking about the other. So then you can begin to explore other avenues <v Dr. James Peterson>and you must have other friends. <v Dr. James Peterson>Married friends you had sometimes drop away.

<v Dr. James Peterson>Did you two find that? <v Harriet Nelson>Yes. Yes. <v Harriet Nelson>You feel like a stork on one leg. <v Dr. James Peterson>That's right. <v Mary Martin>That's a marvelous description. <v Dr. James Peterson>It is. And -. <v Harriet Nelson>Really is hard to keep a balance. <v Dr. James Peterson>You have to find some new people. <v Dr. James Peterson>Then you have to find new activities because the activities you had were interlocked with <v Dr. James Peterson>your mate. And so you begin to make some ?inaudible?. <v Dr. James Peterson>You reach out and see what now is going to bring you satisfaction. <v Mary Martin>You wrote so beautifully in your book about your daughters. <v Mary Martin>The first paragraph in your book is one of the most touching things I've read. <v Mary Martin>Really. I just love it. I haven't finished it yet because they've kept us pretty busy <v Mary Martin>here at Over Easy. But really, it's just so warm. <v Mary Martin>Heartwarming. <v Richard Meryman>That's really nice to hear. How old are the children now? <v Richard Meryman>Well, the older one, Meredith is just 16. <v Richard Meryman>Yes. And the other is 13. <v Jim Hartz>How did you cope with the grieving, your wife's loss and having to raise two daughters <v Jim Hartz>at the same time?

<v Richard Meryman>Well, it's it's really an impossibility. <v Richard Meryman>But you come as close as you can. And part of you is really crazy. <v Richard Meryman>You're just you're besieged by emotions you can't control, sudden <v Richard Meryman>attacks of crying, numbness. <v Richard Meryman>And you're - it's a full time job just to cope with your daily life. <v Richard Meryman>On the other hand, you are the children's continuity. <v Richard Meryman>You - They turn to you for support, for reassurance. <v Jim Hartz>How did you help them? <v Richard Meryman>I - Well, two things. I was there a lot. <v Richard Meryman>We wrestled. We - we did everything. <v Richard Meryman>I mean, a lot of every time I came home, it was touch and feel and <v Richard Meryman>and be there for them. <v Richard Meryman>The other thing that I did was at first they were very - <v Richard Meryman>I was very indulgent. I wanted to make them be happy, let them <v Richard Meryman>stay up late, watch television, not make their beds. <v Richard Meryman>And they got naughtier and naughtier. <v Richard Meryman>And I realized that what they really wanted was structure

<v Richard Meryman>and control. And I was giving them freedom at a moment when they wanted structure. <v Mary Martin>Needed it, too. <v Harriet Nelson>It was good for you to have that involvement, too, at that time, wasn't it? <v Richard Meryman>Certainly was. I think what I missed as much as anything was an object <v Richard Meryman>- a person to love. And they fill that void. <v Mary Martin>You write so beautifully. And I used to read a book a day. <v Mary Martin>I mean, I really loved reading. And suddenly when Richard left, I couldn't read. <v Mary Martin>I couldn't read one thing. I couldn't concentrate. <v Mary Martin>And I would read want ads in the paper, you know, in the back. <v Mary Martin>I couldn't read - read headlines. I could not make any sense. <v Mary Martin>It's just - been just eight years now, it's just beginning to come back <v Mary Martin>where I can read again. <v Harriet Nelson>That is just happening to me, too. I read the same paragraph over and over. <v Mary Martin>And not understand one word. <v Harriet Nelson>Right. And now I'm beginning to finally break a book. <v Richard Meryman>It's, uh. That's true for me, too. <v Richard Meryman>The thoughts come into my head uncontrolled. <v Richard Meryman>It's very hard to be a writer. ?inaudible?

<v Jim Hartz>What was it like with your children? With Rick and Dave and the grandchildren? <v Harriet Nelson>My boys are adults. You know. <v Harriet Nelson>They're full grown men. And so I had great support from the entire family. <v Harriet Nelson>But on the other hand, being full grown men and with their own families, they had <v Harriet Nelson>their own daily lives to continue. <v Harriet Nelson>We don't live quite that close together, you know. <v Harriet Nelson>They live in a valley and I live in Laguna. <v Harriet Nelson>Quite a distance. <v Jim Hartz>I've got to ask you. Is there a tendency to depend more on them now or was it initially <v Jim Hartz>and have you moved from that? Or how did how did that change? <v Harriet Nelson>No, we became great friends. <v Harriet Nelson>Really? Yes. I was able to discuss with them parts <v Harriet Nelson>of their father's life with me that I would ordinarily with probably another <v Harriet Nelson>woman friend. But we're on that kind of basis. <v Harriet Nelson>I can talk to them about anything. And - and I always know. <v Harriet Nelson>And they knew that I wanted to stand on my own two feet because I was going to have to do <v Harriet Nelson>it eventually, you know.

<v Harriet Nelson>And so they would let me go - if they knew that I knew that I needed <v Harriet Nelson>help, they were there. But being being adults was very <v Harriet Nelson>helpful to me and their families, their wives. <v Mary Martin>I must say that my children have been marvelous about it. <v Mary Martin>And I'm glad that we don't all live close together because it becomes a great event <v Mary Martin>when we when we get together. <v Mary Martin>But they're all - we're closer now than we've ever been in our lives. <v Mary Martin>So I'm I feel like I've had a second chance. <v Harriet Nelson>It's wonderful when they accept you as a friend and not just a parent. <v Jim Hartz> Dick, did you consciously go out and try to build a circle of friends <v Jim Hartz>or did you try to rely more on girlfriends ? <v Richard Meryman>Well, I think this is where a man's experience <v Richard Meryman>is different from a woman's. As a friend of mine said to me, you're catnip. <v Richard Meryman>I mean, women really flocked around. <v Richard Meryman>And it was a question - [Laughter]. <v Mary Martin>I love that. There aren't that many of you.

<v Richard Meryman>It was a question really of -. <v Mary Martin>Then it's better to look for new friends in a way. <v Mary Martin>Is that right? <v Richard Meryman>You know, you just. I was actually - Well, I didn't have much time for that <v Richard Meryman>sort of thing. I allowed myself two nights a week of social life. <v Richard Meryman>But it was terribly important to me. <v Richard Meryman>Because you really want to feel that there is some escape from all of this <v Richard Meryman>pain, some - some way you're going to get out of it. <v Jim Hartz>I was just going to ask you. You described sort of an initial period after the loss of a <v Jim Hartz>loved one? What, when do people - most people begin to start really thinking <v Jim Hartz>about the future? Is this a multi year process? <v Dr. James Peterson>Well, the process goes something like this. <v Dr. James Peterson>And Mary mentioned it and you mentioned it. <v Dr. James Peterson>The first period is a period of paralysis that can last up to six <v Dr. James Peterson>months where you can't think of anything. <v Dr. James Peterson>You can't read. You have stomach problems. <v Dr. James Peterson>And so then after that, when, as I say, you begin <v Dr. James Peterson>to distance a little bit, then you can begin to

<v Dr. James Peterson>depend on your children ?inaudible? more. <v Dr. James Peterson>And I want to put one thing in here that is extraordinarily <v Dr. James Peterson>important. What we're finding in our studies, we now have over 700 ?inaudible? <v Dr. James Peterson>Interviews, widows and widowers. <v Dr. James Peterson>What we're finding is that an intimate friend, <v Dr. James Peterson>it isn't just that, you know, you get more friends, but it is you find someone <v Dr. James Peterson>that has gone through the same experience that understands your emotions, <v Dr. James Peterson>that you can put your head on the shoulder and cry. <v Dr. James Peterson>Now, if you can do that with a child, that's fine. <v Dr. James Peterson>Generally, you can't. We're also finding that the one person in the family <v Dr. James Peterson>who seems to be most useful in doing what you're saying, coming out of it and finding new <v Dr. James Peterson>identity is the oldest daughter. <v Dr. James Peterson>Yes. We men are not so good at that <v Dr. James Peterson>from what they're learning in terms of the study. <v Dr. James Peterson>Now, to have children and to have them about available

<v Dr. James Peterson>by telephone, if you're feeling low, that's fine. <v Dr. James Peterson>But we need more than that. We need to talk and talk and cry and <v Dr. James Peterson>cry. They need the tears to wash away that <v Dr. James Peterson>terrible sadness and the guilt. <v Dr. James Peterson>Everything that is associated. And if we can have that, that friend, <v Dr. James Peterson>which I call intimate, then that helps a great deal. <v Mary Martin>Do you, Harriet? Because I do. <v Harriet Nelson>Yes. And you know what? I found myself doing - scratching around <v Harriet Nelson>for things inside myself to feel guilty about as though I were punishing <v Harriet Nelson>myself. I think that I was, wasn't I? <v Dr. James Peterson>Exactly. <v Mary Martin>?inaudible? terribly. <v Harriet Nelson>- that he is gone and you are here, and you are trying to punish yourself for <v Harriet Nelson>being here. <v Dr. James Peterson>Exactly. <v Richard Meryman>But that's part of mourning, I think, is that you really have to deal with those things. <v Richard Meryman>And I think of mourning is as wearing out your grief like <v Richard Meryman>an old suit. You go over and over and over that until it's gone. <v Dr. James Peterson>We call like grief work.

<v Jim Hartz>Grief work? <v Dr. James Peterson>Grief work, and it's extraordinarily important. <v Dr. James Peterson>If one doesn't do it, one is then psychologically paralyzed <v Dr. James Peterson>for the rest of one's life. <v Jim Hartz>What happens if you don't get your grief out? What happens to you? <v Dr. James Peterson>If you keep it inside - if you deny it, you keep it inside, and <v Dr. James Peterson>it's as though you were bound up in a straitjacket emotionally. <v Dr. James Peterson>You can't laugh or cry. You can't do anything. <v Dr. James Peterson>And there are people whose whole lives are like that because they haven't cried <v Dr. James Peterson>and they haven't shared. <v Mary Martin>And they - and they are warped. I mean, their lives are warped because of it. <v Mary Martin>Exactly right. <v Richard Meryman>I've always understood that 50 percent of all men marry within six <v Richard Meryman>months. And I think it's because they have found - they've used a woman for this <v Richard Meryman>intimate person and get more and more involved and get married really too soon. <v Richard Meryman>Too soon and have this problem that you described. <v Richard Meryman> <v Dr. James Peterson> The reason that it's too soon is because <v Dr. James Peterson>one is not marrying for the proper reason, that there is a relationship established <v Dr. James Peterson>that one is marrying to have a sounding board.

<v Dr. James Peterson>And that isn't why we want to get married. <v Mary Martin>It doesn't work, often, because of that. <v Dr. James Peterson>No it doesn't. <v Harriet Nelson>I think one of the finest days of my life came the <v Harriet Nelson>first day that I found out I could laugh again. <v Dr. James Peterson>Yes, exactly. <v Harriet Nelson>I mean, I felt like I'd graduated, you know. <v Jim Hartz>Do you remember? <v Harriet Nelson>Yes, I do. And it hasn't been too long ago. <v Harriet Nelson>As a matter of fact, a couple of weeks ago. <v Harriet Nelson>You want to hear about it? <v Mary Martin>I'd love to hear about it. <v Speaker>Well, it was the night that William Saroyan died, and I was sitting there having my <v Speaker>dinner by myself, which is not the happiest thing in the whole world, to sit and eat <v Speaker>dinner by yourself. And it was on television and they came on, said <v Speaker>that Saroyan had died. And I thought, oh, what a loss. <v Speaker>You know, what a wonderful mind, we're going to miss him so. <v Speaker>And then they said that his last words were that he knew it was inevitable, <v Speaker>but he thought he was going to be the exception. <v Speaker>Wonderful mind. At a time like that, he could think of something like that to say. <v Speaker>And I laughed out loud. And it was the first time I laughed out loud in six years <v Speaker>and I kept laughing all evening long.

<v Speaker>As a matter of fact, every time I thought about it for two weeks, I laughed, you know. <v Jim Hartz>Is that it such a typical reaction James? <v Dr. James Peterson>Yes. And that's beautiful, because it tells us you see that there's <v Dr. James Peterson>release now that you can laugh. <v Mary Martin>I had a dream - I'd stopped dreaming. <v Mary Martin>And I didn't ?inaudible? tell you the whole dream, but. I didn't dream at all. <v Mary Martin>I'm sure people do. But there was nothing. <v Mary Martin>I couldn't, I didn't dream. I couldn't read. <v Mary Martin>And one night - oh, I would see at least a year and a half after that, Richard - <v Mary Martin>I had this dream and I saw Richard as clear as a bell. <v Mary Martin>I mean, he looked so well. He looked so handsome and not like he - <v Mary Martin>when I first met him. And he had on a hat. <v Mary Martin>He never wears a hat. Never wore a hat. <v Mary Martin>And he just looked so beautiful. <v Mary Martin>And he was coming towards me. And I tried to touch him and it was gone. <v Mary Martin>And so I said, my friend, my close friend, Janet Gaynor, I told her the dream. <v Mary Martin>And she said, Mary, you are now released. <v Mary Martin>You saw how well he looked. You saw how absolutely well he looked. <v Mary Martin>And you don't have to feel sad anymore about it.

<v Mary Martin>And it did help. And I haven't dreamed it ever again. <v Richard Meryman>That happened to me. I hadn't dreamed about her for months and months and months. <v Richard Meryman>Then suddenly I dreamed of her coming out a door in color and <v Richard Meryman>she had red hair. And I thought that's what she looked like. <v Richard Meryman>And that was it. <v Dr. James Peterson>Did you have a sense of release? <v Richard Meryman>Yes. <v Mary Martin>- it's too soon. It could happen someday. <v Harriet Nelson>I dreamt a lot, but it was always rejection. <v Harriet Nelson>He was always rejecting me. <v Harriet Nelson>I mean, this wonderful man I'd been married to for 40 years who never looked cross-eyed <v Harriet Nelson>at anybody. I woke up and I'd feel - <v Mary Martin>He didn't have time. <v Harriet Nelson>You're right, he didn't have time. <v Harriet Nelson>I kept him very busy. But - but I woke up feeling terrible and <v Harriet Nelson>terribly ashamed about it. You know, that I could even in my dreams, think such a thing <v Harriet Nelson>about us. And it kept coming, and I had - I can't <v Harriet Nelson>tell you how many dreams I had, a rejection. <v Harriet Nelson>And just in the last two weeks, I have dreamt that there was a togetherness. <v Jim Hartz>Is that typical, too?

<v Dr. James Peterson>Yes, that is. <v Jim Hartz>How do you - what do you counsel your patients to do when they have such dreams? <v Dr. James Peterson>Well, depends. If they are dreams of rejection, then we talk <v Dr. James Peterson>and they cathart and I find out what they're feeling guilty about. <v Dr. James Peterson>You know. <v Harriet Nelson>I need a therapist. <v Dr. James Peterson>The what-if's. We are all full of what-if's. <v Dr. James Peterson>What if I didn't make him work so hard? <v Dr. James Peterson>Oh, what if I'd seen he'd gone to a doctor? <v Dr. James Peterson>All these things. So we blame ourselves and then we're apt to have <v Dr. James Peterson>these kinds of rejections. <v Jim Hartz>OK. If we get to this point where we can laugh again and we know we're reemerging, <v Jim Hartz>sometimes that can be a frightening thing in itself to establish a brand new life. <v Jim Hartz>What sort of feelings do most people have at that point? <v Dr. James Peterson>The reason why it's frightening is because this is strange. <v Dr. James Peterson>We're entering a whole new domain. <v Dr. James Peterson>We're going out on our own now to do things we've never done before. <v Dr. James Peterson>And the strange in life is always somewhat frightening. <v Dr. James Peterson>We haven't got that person by our side to talk, to council with, <v Dr. James Peterson>no. We have to do it all ourselves.

<v Dr. James Peterson>And that's rough. <v Mary Martin>That's why I ended up doing Over Easy. <v Mary Martin>I'm doing something I never did. <v Mary Martin>And I think Richard would be very proud of me. <v Mary Martin>Because I don't know what I'm doing. <v Dr. James Peterson>Mary, you remind me of something that is partially an answer to <v Dr. James Peterson>a question raised in the last paragraph of your book. <v Dr. James Peterson>You have one of the most beautiful sentences I know. <v Dr. James Peterson>This sentence says that concentrated <v Dr. James Peterson>devotion of my husband would be lost if I didn't <v Dr. James Peterson>work. <v Mary Martin>It's the truth. <v Dr. James Peterson>Well, it's the truth -. <v Mary Martin>He gave me his life of work. It would have been in vain, if I don't. <v Dr. James Peterson>Exactly. But that is very important. <v Dr. James Peterson>But that which we worked on together, 20 years, 30 years. <v Dr. James Peterson>That's part of the good thing that remains. <v Dr. James Peterson>And we need to pay tribute to the other by work. <v Dr. James Peterson>And we are finding that the difference between people who make good adjustments and those <v Dr. James Peterson>make poor adjustments is partially work. <v Dr. James Peterson>To be able to establish the work of our hands, as the Bible says, for

<v Dr. James Peterson>many reasons. One of them is that that's a tribute to your mate. <v Dr. James Peterson>And you said it beautifully. <v Mary Martin>Thank you. I mean it, seriously. <v Jim Hartz>You raised the subject a minute ago ?inaudible? a dictate about <v Jim Hartz>people who remarry quickly after. <v Jim Hartz>And you said that they do it for all the wrong reasons. <v Jim Hartz>Dick, you have remarried. <v Richard Meryman>Yes, I have. <v Jim Hartz>What was your experience? <v Richard Meryman>Well, I waited a long time. I waited two years. <v Richard Meryman>And I think that that's very important because I I felt I could not <v Richard Meryman>remarry while I still had that turmoil inside of me. <v Richard Meryman>And in fact, we lived together for a year before we were married. <v Richard Meryman>And I couldn't imagine approaching her <v Richard Meryman>emotionally while I was divided in any way. <v Richard Meryman>That would be very difficult to do. <v Dr. James Peterson>Same is true of many other decisions. <v Dr. James Peterson>We ought to put that in here that as we're coming out of the grief situation, <v Dr. James Peterson>we should not sell our house or decide to move closer to our children

<v Dr. James Peterson>or any other major thing. <v Dr. James Peterson>I say six times in my book. <v Dr. James Peterson>Wait and wait and wait. <v Jim Hartz>Harriett, I can't resist. If the right man came along, would you consider remarriage? <v Harriet Nelson>Uh, no. I'm quite sure I wouldn't. <v Harriet Nelson>It was such - mine was such a long marriage. <v Harriet Nelson>And we were - we were just never separated. <v Harriet Nelson>It was 24 hours a day. And I find at this point in my life, I just don't think <v Harriet Nelson>I want to start with that kind of a relationship again. <v Harriet Nelson>I have loads of wonderful friends and I'm very happy about it. <v Harriet Nelson>I just don't - I think it's, shall I say, too late in life? <v Jim Hartz>Don't ever say that. <v Mary Martin>It's never too late. But I understand because I feel the same way. <v Harriet Nelson>It's so hard to start a relationship again. <v Jim Hartz>We're out of time. <v Mary Martin>Oh - we could go on. You know, all these kind of things when you really are intrigued <v Mary Martin>with answers, it's too short. <v Harriet Nelson>I have learned so much this evening. <v Mary Martin>Come back. <v Jim Hartz>Thank you very much, both of you, for being here. <v Mary Martin>I'm so glad

<v Mary Martin>?inaudible? <v Mary Martin>And thank you, all of you, for joining us today, and the warmth and inspiration you've given the world. <v Mary Martin>And please come back, all of you. Harriet. <v Harriet Nelson>Merci. Thank you. <v Jim Hartz>That's it for today. Join us again soon. <v Jim Hartz>For now, goodbye from Mary and me, and all of us on Over Easy. <v Speaker>Funding for this program was provided by Public Television Stations.

<v Speaker>Sun Company Inc, And Colonial Penn Insurance Group.