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<v Rick Madden>Good afternoon. This is Rick Madden. <v Rick Madden>The Ohio State University Telecommunications Center now brings you a live 2 <v Rick Madden>way discussion of educational problems and research between members of the faculty <v Rick Madden>of the Ohio State University College of Education and teachers of 7 <v Rick Madden>schools in Ohio. <v Rick Madden>Your host and moderator for this series is Dr. William McBride, assistant <v Rick Madden>dean of field relations at the College of Education of the Ohio State University. <v Rick Madden>Before introducing Dr. McBryde, here is our guest speaker for today, Dr. J. <v Rick Madden>Richard Suchman, educational consultant from Palo Alto, California. <v Rick Madden>Dr. Suchman. <v Dr. Suchman>I would like to begin by talking a little bit about what inquiry <v Dr. Suchman>is and what it isn't. <v Dr. Suchman>First of all, I don't consider it as a new way of teaching. <v Dr. Suchman>In fact, I hesitate to call it a way of teaching at all. <v Dr. Suchman>Inquiry really is how people learn
<v Dr. Suchman>when you leave them alone. <v Dr. Suchman>You stop to think of it. <v Dr. Suchman>There's a period of life in which all people are inquirers almost exclusively. <v Dr. Suchman>I'm thinking, of course, of the period from birth until the time person enters school. <v Dr. Suchman>Consider for a minute the child in the playpen. <v Dr. Suchman>Here we see a really full fledged inquirer, he's <v Dr. Suchman>exploring his world at a furious rate. <v Dr. Suchman>He's picking up objects. He's playing with them, turning them over in his hand, putting <v Dr. Suchman>them in his mouth, throwing them around. <v Dr. Suchman>He's not only inquiring with the physical world, but with the social world as well. <v Dr. Suchman>And he's interacting with people, various kinds of parents and siblings. <v Dr. Suchman>He's experimenting. He's trying out different ways of behaving and observing how they <v Dr. Suchman>other people respond. And he's learning a great deal about himself, about other <v Dr. Suchman>people, and about his world in general.
<v Dr. Suchman>This is a very effective way of learning. <v Dr. Suchman>As a matter of fact, probably the greatest amount of learning per <v Dr. Suchman>unit of time that we undergo in our life <v Dr. Suchman>is during that period. <v Speaker>So inquiry is, in a sense, the pursuit of understanding information, <v Speaker>new meaning. And it's characteristically this pursuit <v Speaker>under the guidance and control of the learner himself. <v Speaker>I think that's the chief characteristic of inquiry. <v Speaker>It's self-initiated, self-propelled, self-motivated. <v Speaker>I recently thought of a another way of describing it. <v Speaker>Maybe this will help a little. <v Speaker>I think of inquiry as involving the following things, <v Speaker>messing around with stuff, getting ideas, <v Speaker>messing around with ideas, and then messing around with stuff again. <v Speaker>You'll notice that's a kind of cycle.
<v Speaker>You start out with a contact with the real world. <v Speaker>It's there and you can sense it in many ways. <v Speaker>And as you do this as a human being, you were able to get ideas about the nature of this <v Speaker>world. And you you build up these ideas and they form a kind of map <v Speaker>of what the world is like that becomes very useful to you. <v Speaker>And then you start thinking about the map and comparing parts of it with other parts of <v Speaker>it and one map with another. And that's the messing around with ideas part. <v Speaker>But then you've always got to check that map out to see if it really does correspond with <v Speaker>reality. So finally, you're getting back to messing around with stuff again each time <v Speaker>and this cycle goes on over and over again as one inquires. <v Speaker>And as a matter of fact, you watch scientists or anybody involved in the process of <v Speaker>inquiry, you'll see these stages turning up in a cyclical form. <v Speaker>So I think we have to begin with the idea that we're all inquirers and <v Speaker>in some way or another in throughout our lives, we inquire in one <v Speaker>way or another whether it's in the playpen or outside
<v Speaker>of school or even in school. <v Speaker>But somehow we have managed in our schools to <v Speaker>create conditions that seem to inhibit inquiry in the classroom. <v Speaker>In fact, some classrooms are downright hostile to inquiry. <v Speaker>It becomes very difficult for a person who wants to inquire. <v Speaker>To do so under these conditions. <v Dr. Suchman>For one thing, it seems that the development <v Dr. Suchman>of inquiry is not very high or has not been very high <v Dr. Suchman>among our educational goals. <v Dr. Suchman>We seem to be much more concerned with the <v Dr. Suchman>amount and quality of the content that is stored by <v Dr. Suchman>the learner and somehow less concerned for one <v Dr. Suchman>reason or another with how this content is acquired. <v Dr. Suchman>And as a matter of fact, with how the learner
<v Dr. Suchman>develops the skills for acquiring new knowledge under his own <v Dr. Suchman>power. And I think this really comes to the crux of the matter <v Dr. Suchman>with respect to inquiry development, <v Dr. Suchman>how and why do we get <v Dr. Suchman>concerned with the building of skills <v Dr. Suchman>and attitudes in in the student? <v Dr. Suchman>That enabled him to be an effective learner under his own power. <v Dr. Suchman>A one who can set his own learning goals and who can <v Dr. Suchman>engineer the course of his own investigations and his own build <v Dr. Suchman>up of knowledge. <v Dr. Suchman>You might wonder why we should be concerned with this. <v Dr. Suchman>Maybe I should spend a little time talking about that. <v Dr. Suchman>First of all, I really don't think knowledge can be regarded as something like <v Dr. Suchman>the stuff that fills a container like so much water in a tank.
<v Dr. Suchman>If we examine it more carefully, I think knowledge is something more of a structure <v Dr. Suchman>than a lot of stuff. <v Dr. Suchman>Perhaps the analogy of a house would be more appropriate than water in a tank. <v Dr. Suchman>A house is a structure and it has parts and <v Dr. Suchman>some of these parts are more important for the structure than others. <v Dr. Suchman>The foundation certainly is a pretty important part. <v Dr. Suchman>The walls are important and so is the roof. <v Dr. Suchman>It would be inconceivable to have a house without walls <v Dr. Suchman>and there are functional relationships between these parts. <v Dr. Suchman>The walls support the roof and the foundation supports everything on top of it. <v Dr. Suchman>And a house is something that very often has to keep growing <v Dr. Suchman>because the family gets larger. We have to enlarge the sun porch <v Dr. Suchman>and make it into another room and another story and make other changes
<v Dr. Suchman>to accommodate the demands for space. <v Dr. Suchman>In order to enlarge a house, one has to know a good deal about it. <v Dr. Suchman>You've got to know where the joists are. <v Dr. Suchman>You've got to know what kinds of materials went into various parts. <v Dr. Suchman>And as a matter of fact, the more you know about a house, your house, <v Dr. Suchman>the better equipped you are to expand it, modify it. <v Dr. Suchman>You know where the outlets are and where the pipes are, etc.. <v Dr. Suchman>Well, I think this analogy holds true with respect to the enlargement of one's knowledge <v Dr. Suchman>structure. <v Dr. Suchman>Obviously, the knowledge structure can and should keep growing throughout life <v Dr. Suchman>as we have more experience, as we have more demands upon us, as we get able <v Dr. Suchman>to handle more sophisticated kinds of knowledge. <v Dr. Suchman>The structure itself must assume greater <v Dr. Suchman>size and also a greater degree of interrelatedness of the parts.
<v Dr. Suchman>It would be more parts. <v Dr. Suchman>And generally, it must become a more functional thing. <v Dr. Suchman>And if we know how this structure has been put together, <v Dr. Suchman>we are in a better position to modify it and enlarge it. <v Dr. Suchman>And the way in which we can be best acquainted with <v Dr. Suchman>the structure of our own knowledge is if we have played <v Dr. Suchman>a very important role in building it ourselves. <v Dr. Suchman>In other words, if our knowledge structure is the result of our own <v Dr. Suchman>inquiries and our own searching and our own building of this structure, we'll be in a <v Dr. Suchman>better position to know what we know, how we know it, how the parts are related to each <v Dr. Suchman>other, and how we can do something about expanding. <v Dr. Suchman>As a matter of fact, the more we get involved in producing knowledge, <v Dr. Suchman>the more we know about knowledge and how to increase it. <v Dr. Suchman>If, on the other hand, all of our knowledge has been put together by an architect or an
<v Dr. Suchman>engineer, just like calling somebody else in to build and expand your house, <v Dr. Suchman>then there's a likelihood that the job won't be <v Dr. Suchman>as effective, that the person who is not <v Dr. Suchman>familiar with the structure won't know where, where to make <v Dr. Suchman>the modifications and how to do it most effectively. <v Dr. Suchman>In this world today, where textbooks are being rewritten on the average <v Dr. Suchman>of every 10 years, where the knowledge explosion is such <v Dr. Suchman>a fantastic thing that we're having a great deal of difficulty keeping up with it in the <v Dr. Suchman>schools. <v Dr. Suchman>We need to take very careful consideration of the whole question of preparing <v Dr. Suchman>the child for keeping pace <v Dr. Suchman>with the change of the knowledge picture outside of him <v Dr. Suchman>so that his internal knowledge structure will be able to grow as rapidly as possible. <v Dr. Suchman>This means we have to be concerned with his ability to revise his house
<v Dr. Suchman>and expand it and modify it effectively. <v Dr. Suchman>This means that we need to concern ourselves with the maintenance of <v Dr. Suchman>the injury process in the child, the continuation of inquiry. <v Dr. Suchman>The kinds of inquiry that he was doing before he got to school, before we <v Dr. Suchman>started blocking inquiry. <v Dr. Suchman>And we have to consider what can be done in the school <v Dr. Suchman>to help children become effective. <v Dr. Suchman>In a sense, inquiry enables a person to <v Dr. Suchman>keep learning throughout his lifetime. <v Dr. Suchman>Now, the question of what conditions <v Dr. Suchman>are necessary in order for inquiry to take place and how can we create these <v Dr. Suchman>conditions in the school? <v Dr. Suchman>The work that I was able to do at the University of Illinois over a period
<v Dr. Suchman>of about eight years brought to light some very interesting things. <v Dr. Suchman>We were able to find that there are about three conditions that are <v Dr. Suchman>just about essential for children to be able to inquire. <v Dr. Suchman>The first of these is freedom, as simple as that, <v Dr. Suchman>but a particular kind of freedom. I'm not talking now about out and out permissiveness <v Dr. Suchman>where the child, the learner, can do anything he wishes. <v Dr. Suchman>I'm really talking about intellectual freedom. <v Dr. Suchman>There has to be room for the learner to make a great many choices <v Dr. Suchman>in the course of his own search for meaning and knowledge. <v Dr. Suchman>First is freedom to have ideas. <v Dr. Suchman>There's got to be lots of room for children not only to have ideas, <v Dr. Suchman>but to express them, to communicate them to other people in the very form <v Dr. Suchman>that the child has created.
<v Dr. Suchman>The children have to not only be given the freedom to express these ideas, but they have <v Dr. Suchman>to sense this freedom and use it. <v Dr. Suchman>They have to be autonomous in this freedom. <v Dr. Suchman>Without that freedom inquiry is impossible because the very nature <v Dr. Suchman>of inquiry is autonomy is the use <v Dr. Suchman>of these choices in creating ideas. <v Dr. Suchman>And secondly, in gathering information <v Dr. Suchman>to test these ideas. <v Dr. Suchman>The cycle I was talking about a few moments ago involves gathering <v Dr. Suchman>data, messing with stuff, and the learner has to be free <v Dr. Suchman>to gather the kinds of data at the time and in the sequence that he <v Dr. Suchman>needs those data in order to test the ideas that he has. <v Dr. Suchman>And so the freedom has two sides. <v Dr. Suchman>Freedom to have ideas and express them. <v Dr. Suchman>And secondly, freedom to gather data as a way of checking these ideas out.
<v Dr. Suchman>The second important condition has to do with the environment surrounding <v Dr. Suchman>the child. If he has ideas, <v Dr. Suchman>the environment must provide people who are there ready and <v Dr. Suchman>willing to listen to and try to understand his his ideas <v Dr. Suchman>and are ready and willing to respond to them in some way. <v Dr. Suchman>There is nothing more discouraging than for a child or for anybody as <v Dr. Suchman>far as that goes, to have a creative idea and then have somebody <v Dr. Suchman>listen to it and say, I'm sorry, you're wrong. <v Dr. Suchman>That's no good. <v Dr. Suchman>So that there has to be in this responsive environment a kind of <v Dr. Suchman>willingness to let a person's idea ride <v Dr. Suchman>and go on judged or condemned <v Dr. Suchman>so that the individual has this idea, can find ways of
<v Dr. Suchman>gathering data and deciding for himself whether his idea should <v Dr. Suchman>stand or be modified. <v Dr. Suchman>Too often we're very impatient that the child get the, quote, correct idea, <v Dr. Suchman>unquote. The idea that we the teacher have <v Dr. Suchman>rather than let letting the child hold onto his idea, compare <v Dr. Suchman>it with other ideas, listen to other people's ideas, gather data <v Dr. Suchman>and finally make a decision for himself as to what to do about. <v Dr. Suchman>And of course, when I say finally, I don't really mean that in an absolute sense. <v Dr. Suchman>We may have ideas for two or three years, which finally we give up because we have <v Dr. Suchman>access to new data that makes us feel we want to revise our thinking. <v Dr. Suchman>That's what I mean by this process of building and expanding <v Dr. Suchman>and reorganizing our own house, our own knowledge structure. <v Dr. Suchman>If somebody lets you decide for yourself when to change the knowledge structure because <v Dr. Suchman>you have evidence and reason to do it, then the changes are yours and you know when
<v Dr. Suchman>you've made them and why you've made it. <v Dr. Suchman>You also know which parts of your knowledge to have faith in because you're they are <v Dr. Suchman>supported by lots of evidence in which parts not to have so much faith. <v Dr. Suchman>And because perhaps you've accepted an idea that somebody gave you, but you don't have <v Dr. Suchman>any other evidence. <v Dr. Suchman>The other part of the responsive environment that I'm talking about has to do with <v Dr. Suchman>responsiveness and the sense of availability of data. <v Dr. Suchman>In order for a person to inquire, he's got to be able to get his hands on the data he <v Dr. Suchman>need. <v Dr. Suchman>If if a student is studying social studies, he's got to be able to get <v Dr. Suchman>support evidence to test his ideas. <v Dr. Suchman>Perhaps this is in the form of actual documents or other forms <v Dr. Suchman>of. Formation resource materials, and he's got to be able to pick from a vast <v Dr. Suchman>array of these. <v Dr. Suchman>Those things that he needs to test his particular ideas. <v Dr. Suchman>And so in the in computer language, we have to make it possible for the <v Dr. Suchman>student to get random access to vast quantities of information.
<v Dr. Suchman>And this requires a a new approach to curriculum. <v Dr. Suchman>I think a new approach to the selection of learning materials and the utilization of <v Dr. Suchman>learning materials. <v Dr. Suchman>The third important condition for inquiry has to do with an internal <v Dr. Suchman>psychological state of the learner. <v Dr. Suchman>It has to do with a kind of tension that is necessary in order for Ingrid to take <v Dr. Suchman>place. <v Dr. Suchman>If a child looks at a red grass. <v Dr. Suchman>This tension might come immediately. <v Dr. Suchman>He's never seen red grass before. And so immediately the question arises, why is the <v Dr. Suchman>grass red? <v Dr. Suchman>He's very likely to want to inquire into this so that he can satisfy himself <v Dr. Suchman>that he's not having an hallucination or something of that sort. <v Dr. Suchman>He wants to find out why the grass is red. <v Dr. Suchman>On the other hand, he may see green grass and think nothing of it until somebody raises
<v Dr. Suchman>a question Why is the grass green? <v Dr. Suchman>Such a question produces a kind of tension also. <v Dr. Suchman>Suddenly he begins to wonder about grass in a way he hadn't wondered before. <v Dr. Suchman>Yes. Why is it green? I never thought about that. <v Dr. Suchman>I've always accepted it as green, but I've never really thought about it. <v Dr. Suchman>Why is it green? <v Dr. Suchman>Whether the tension comes from my so-called exotic events such as red grass <v Dr. Suchman>or a commonplace event with an exotic question why is the grass green? <v Dr. Suchman>The tension is necessary for inquiry, and if the student does not <v Dr. Suchman>have this question inside of him, he won't have any reason <v Dr. Suchman>to inquire unless he's inquiring to please somebody else, in which case it's not genuine <v Dr. Suchman>inquiry. So we have to consider ways of generating this <v Dr. Suchman>tension, and I think the teacher's role is extremely important <v Dr. Suchman>here. The teacher may bring into the classroom exotic materials or exotic
<v Dr. Suchman>events like red grass. If there is such a thing, he can plunk a microscope <v Dr. Suchman>down in front of the students and say, take a look at that slide. <v Dr. Suchman>What do you think about it? That's likely to raise some tensions. <v Dr. Suchman>He might do read a passage and then race from Shakespeare and raise some questions about <v Dr. Suchman>it. There are countless ways in which teachers can provide a kind of focusing on the part <v Dr. Suchman>of the learner that enables him to have the motivation <v Dr. Suchman>to inquire. <v Dr. Suchman>This focusing can come after a student has formulated a theory. <v Dr. Suchman>He's got an idea. <v Dr. Suchman>He says the idea is, I think that the governments behave this way because <v Dr. Suchman>and he formulates his idea and the teacher listens to it and says, that's a very <v Dr. Suchman>interesting theory. I think I understand what you're saying. <v Dr. Suchman>But if that is so, then how do you account for this over here? <v Dr. Suchman>The teacher now is introducing some new data as a way of challenging <v Dr. Suchman>the idea, not approving or disapproving, but building new tensions so that the student
<v Dr. Suchman>feels that he wants to continue inquiry. <v Dr. Suchman>Now, these three conditions, freedom, response of environment <v Dr. Suchman>and focus are the three fundamental cornerstones on which <v Dr. Suchman>the process of inquiry rests. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think if we're going to bring the process of inquiry back into the classroom, <v Dr. Suchman>where I think it belongs as a very central thing, we've got to consider <v Dr. Suchman>the selection of materials, the training of teachers and the general procedures <v Dr. Suchman>for dealing with the process of education with these conditions in <v Dr. Suchman>mind. <v Dr. Suchman>I have been working with the development of such materials and we have developed <v Dr. Suchman>some particular materials that I think <v Dr. Suchman>serve this purpose. But I think there's a tremendous amount of room for teachers <v Dr. Suchman>to innovate here once they understand what the process is and once they <v Dr. Suchman>feel comfortable in creating these conditions, I think there's a tremendous amount of
<v Dr. Suchman>room for them to invent their own. <v Dr. Suchman>And this invention could be a very exciting thing. <v Dr. Suchman>I would like to suggest at this time, as a matter of fact, that <v Dr. Suchman>those of you who feel that you would like to explore this further <v Dr. Suchman>begin by trying to create these conditions in your own way, <v Dr. Suchman>by experimenting, by exploring some of the possibilities, <v Dr. Suchman>some of the things you can do it. <v Dr. Suchman>Would be to take the children on on field trips or bring objects into <v Dr. Suchman>the classroom or raise questions about issues. <v Dr. Suchman>In each case, starting with something very concrete, not with <v Dr. Suchman>an idea necessarily, but with something some object, some set of objects, some <v Dr. Suchman>conditions, some substances, depending on the subject area. <v Dr. Suchman>Then allowing the children this freedom to have ideas and to gather data,
<v Dr. Suchman>allowing them to operate in a kind of community of scholars climate, <v Dr. Suchman>where the children can exchange ideas and discuss back and <v Dr. Suchman>forth the merits of the various theories that each student has <v Dr. Suchman>and then gather additional data to test these and eventually perhaps to resolve, <v Dr. Suchman>at least on some basis, some of the differences. <v Dr. Suchman>Bearing in mind that there is no final basis <v Dr. Suchman>for conclusion in any instance, that inquiry is <v Dr. Suchman>always an open ended process, that somebody can always come up with a better theory, <v Dr. Suchman>possibly. And so you have no logical ending point, <v Dr. Suchman>but only a plateau of theory. <v Dr. Suchman>You stop at any given point with the best possible theory you can find, <v Dr. Suchman>hoping perhaps that you can have a better one tomorrow. <v Dr. Suchman>But knowing that the only basis upon which you can move ahead would be finding <v Dr. Suchman>additional evidence or new ideas that help to clarify the problem
<v Dr. Suchman>situation in some new way. <v Dr. Suchman>Finally, I would like to say that the only way a teacher can really <v Dr. Suchman>carry this out effectively is if he becomes an Inquirer <v Dr. Suchman>or himself, and one of the chief concerns for the <v Dr. Suchman>teacher as an Inquirer is the teaching learning process itself. <v Dr. Suchman>What are children like as learners? <v Dr. Suchman>How do they grow intellectually? <v Dr. Suchman>This is probably the greatest inquiry of all and one of the most exciting. <v Dr. Suchman>I'd like at this point to wish you luck on your voyage. <v Rick Madden>Thank you, Dr. Suchman, for your presentation and your excellent slides. <v Rick Madden>Mr. Reed, we welcome you to our program today as a panelist. <v Rick Madden>We are looking forward to practical questions from you as this part of our program moves <v Rick Madden>along. But before we begin our questioning today,
<v Rick Madden>we will pause 10 seconds for station identification. <v Rick Madden>This is the Ohio Educational Network. <v Announcer>In Columbus, Ohio. This is WOSU FM, <v Announcer>89.7 Megahertz. <v Rick Madden>We'll begin our questioning at this point and go immediately to Aida high school <v Rick Madden>in Aida, Ohio. Mr. Paul Kramer there. <v Paul Kramer>This is Paul Kramer at Aida School. <v Paul Kramer>Our first question is how can we help but stifle inquiry when we <v Paul Kramer>have 30 students in the classroom? <v Rick Madden>This is the age old problem of having numbers of people and still doing <v Rick Madden>this sort of thing. Dr. Suchman, would you like to respond to that question? <v Dr. Suchman>I'd be happy to. <v Dr. Suchman>I think we have to think about the 30 children in a classroom <v Dr. Suchman>as 30 individual inquirers and not necessarily a group <v Dr. Suchman>or a monolithic group of 30 students.
<v Dr. Suchman>I think our earlier notions of teaching as a kind of showing <v Dr. Suchman>and telling process used to make us feel as though <v Dr. Suchman>these children were coming in awfully large numbers. <v Dr. Suchman>I've seen 30 children, 32 or as many as 40 children in a classroom wall <v Dr. Suchman>inquiring simultaneously <v Dr. Suchman>and really moving along beautifully. <v Dr. Suchman>I think a lot has to do with the kind of responsive environment that you're able to <v Dr. Suchman>provide the children and the kinds of focus foci that <v Dr. Suchman>you make available if the children are in small groups of three and four. <v Dr. Suchman>And if they are having many opportunities to discuss their ideas <v Dr. Suchman>with each other, if they have access to a wide range of resources, <v Dr. Suchman>opportunities to experiment with materials, if if it's in an area where experimentation <v Dr. Suchman>is going to provide a responsive environment, I think
<v Dr. Suchman>that you can deal with a great many children. <v Dr. Suchman>I don't think the numbers necessarily pose the great problem. <v Dr. Suchman>I think it's more the question of of providing these children with stimuli, <v Dr. Suchman>with materials and questions that raise their curiosity and <v Dr. Suchman>get them interested in pursuing greater meaning. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think that 32 is quite manageable group for this. <v Rick Madden>The question that Mr. Kramer raises, obviously, is one and a part of <v Rick Madden>the pattern of an educational philosophy which says that every child must be doing <v Rick Madden>the same thing. <v Rick Madden>And I think you are saying that every child does not have to do the same. <v Rick Madden>Am I correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth. But I'm just wondering if-. <v Dr. Suchman>Yes. Well, You've done very well with this. <v Dr. Suchman>Yeah. As a matter of fact, I think our older notions of education <v Dr. Suchman>say that education is successful to the extent that we make all the children <v Dr. Suchman>alike. That is, our objectives tend to prescribe what the child will <v Dr. Suchman>be like at the end of the year. And teachers typically would ask the question.
<v Dr. Suchman>And now, boys and girls, what have we learned today? <v Dr. Suchman>And I think through the course of inquiry, we find that children become more <v Dr. Suchman>and more different from each other. And I I feel that this is a desirable goal of <v Dr. Suchman>education to allow these differences to manifest themselves. <v Rick Madden>Mr. Reed, you obviously are a man who has been a part of the educational system <v Rick Madden>for some years. What would be your reaction to this? <v Rick Madden>Can we break this lockstep of every child in a classroom of 30 doing exactly the same <v Rick Madden>thing? <v Gerald Reed>I think we can. <v Gerald Reed>I think it's something we should work toward. <v Gerald Reed>I don't think we have been doing a very good job of it in the past. <v Gerald Reed>I think that I'm very much interested in this kind <v Gerald Reed>of learning and find it. <v Gerald Reed>I'm going to have to do a lot of studying and preparing myself so that I can give it a <v Gerald Reed>trial. <v Rick Madden>Mr. Kramer and Aida, we're coming back to you now to see what further elaboration <v Rick Madden>you might like to have on this on your question.
<v Paul Kramer>No, I answered the question very well. <v Rick Madden>We will next go to Chillicothe High School. <v Rick Madden>Mrs. Amelia van Vorhees there. <v Amelia van Vorhees>This is Mrs. Amelia van Vorhees. <v Amelia van Vorhees>Would you con- would you say that the average college lecture type classroom <v Amelia van Vorhees>in which teachers receive much of their training is hostile to inquiry? <v Amelia van Vorhees>If so, how do we train teachers to inqui- to the inquiry process? <v Rick Madden>Very good. I'm going to let you go right to that one. <v Dr. Suchman>I guess I jumped the gun there. I was so eager to answer that. <v Dr. Suchman>Yeah. I think that the the lecture setting, of course, has a message <v Dr. Suchman>of its own. That knowledge is something that's dished out by some authority and that <v Dr. Suchman>students are supposed to stop it up like a sponge. <v Dr. Suchman>Obviously, that picture you saw with the liquid being poured into the head container got <v Dr. Suchman>that message across, I think. <v Dr. Suchman>Yeah. I think this is a very bad preparation for teachers.
<v Dr. Suchman>I think it continues reinforcing something which was taught to our teachers <v Dr. Suchman>when they went through school themselves. And I think we tend to reinforce it in our <v Dr. Suchman>teacher education programs when we teach them that way. <v Dr. Suchman>I think that the preparation of teachers ought to be an inquiry itself, as a matter of <v Dr. Suchman>fact. I I think the teachers ought to begin their preparation <v Dr. Suchman>by being together with children in very small numbers at first, maybe one child at a <v Dr. Suchman>time, and allowed to explore what children are like in very simple, direct <v Dr. Suchman>ways and being allowed to get ideas from this <v Dr. Suchman>and to discuss these ideas with fellow students in education and in the presence <v Dr. Suchman>of their professors and evolve for themselves a theoretical structure about <v Dr. Suchman>the nature of children and learning and the teaching learning process. <v Dr. Suchman>I think teacher education ought to be a an inquiry into just <v Dr. Suchman>this and it ought to be done in a much more enquiring way. <v Dr. Suchman>The more didactic we are with teachers, the more didactic they're going to be with their <v Dr. Suchman>pupils because people teach the way they learn.
<v Rick Madden>This is interesting that you say this, and I'm I'm curious to know what your reaction <v Rick Madden>would be to to the idea that maybe there needs to be a <v Rick Madden>change of idea. <v Rick Madden>It's the concept you have about it is the reason I'm here to sop <v Rick Madden>this knowledge or am I here to inquire? <v Dr. Suchman>Yes. Well, I think that that's the message we give them. <v Dr. Suchman>If we if we line them up in rows, in lecture rooms and throw the stuff at them <v Dr. Suchman>as though we are keepers of the truth and we are now vesting this truth in them, <v Dr. Suchman>that they will get the message that this is what education is all about, shoving things <v Dr. Suchman>that people and filling a tank, and they'll walk away with that message and take it into <v Dr. Suchman>their own teaching. They'll reflect that model. <v Rick Madden>Do you think that the we really somewhere another have to begin the the the concept <v Rick Madden>of changing this at our level? Or are they teachers themselves? <v Rick Madden>By this, I mean the pupils in a class in teacher education <v Rick Madden>likely to become inquirers even in spite of this kind of preparation?
<v Dr. Suchman>Well, every once in a while you'll find somebody who becomes a good teacher despite <v Dr. Suchman>our teacher education. <v Dr. Suchman>But I think that we could do a lot to change this. <v Dr. Suchman>I think we could make lots of space, lots of room for students of education to become <v Dr. Suchman>inquirers. Obviously, if we started this before they got the college, you would even be <v Dr. Suchman>better. Somebody who begins is actually we begin our teacher education <v Dr. Suchman>when we're born. And all of our life is preparation for the day. <v Dr. Suchman>We step into the classroom, in a sense. <v Dr. Suchman>And if most of that is time where we're allowed to inquire, I think we'll be much better <v Dr. Suchman>able to let kids inquire when we become teachers. <v Rick Madden>We'll return to Chillicothe. Mrs. Van Voorhees, further comments? <v Amelia van Vorhees>No, thank you. <v Rick Madden>We will now go to Circleville Junior High School, Fred Goeglein there. <v Fred Goeglein>This Fred Goeglein Circleville. <v Fred Goeglein>We have actually 3 questions at this time. <v Fred Goeglein>Actually, 2 questions are very similar and are tied together.
<v Fred Goeglein>Do you think that learning through inquiry is a significant and indispensible way <v Fred Goeglein>of learning and in connection with this would you please suggest <v Fred Goeglein>some ways in which independent study time for individual learning might be made possible? <v Rick Madden>Would you like to deal with those two questions? <v Dr. Suchman>All right. Yes. <v Dr. Suchman>As I said earlier, that I think that inquiry not only is indispensable, <v Dr. Suchman>I think this is the way people learn when you leave them alone. <v Dr. Suchman>This is the this is the natural learning process of human beings. <v Dr. Suchman>I think we if we deny human beings the opportunity to learn this way, <v Dr. Suchman>then we are trying to swim upstream. <v Dr. Suchman>And I don't think there's any reason to. People are motivated to learn as enquirers. <v Dr. Suchman>And we do a great deal of this before anybody tries to regulate this process <v Dr. Suchman>and intervene in teaching. <v Dr. Suchman>This is not to say that I'm against stepping in <v Dr. Suchman>and intervening. It's just that I think we need to make lots more room for it.
<v Dr. Suchman>Now, the practical matter of how we do this with independent study time. <v Dr. Suchman>I think that the time is best used once the student is <v Dr. Suchman>engaged in some kind of inquiry. <v Dr. Suchman>Once he's interested enough in getting meaning about something to the point <v Dr. Suchman>where he wants to do something about it. <v Dr. Suchman>And that means messing around with something, gathering data, <v Dr. Suchman>theorizing, testing theories, going out and sampling the world and <v Dr. Suchman>thinking about it and coming up with ideas in relation to these experiments <v Dr. Suchman>or studies, whatever he's engaged in. <v Dr. Suchman>I think that once the the learner catches fire, so to speak, once <v Dr. Suchman>he's really involved in pursuing meaning, he'll use his independent study time. <v Dr. Suchman>If we give him the freedom to use it the way he wants to and if we provide <v Dr. Suchman>him with the resources he needs to get the data he's looking for. <v Dr. Suchman>You just can't give him freedom without any way of using it. <v Dr. Suchman>I think we have to really try to provide him with the best possible
<v Dr. Suchman>resources for his investigations. <v Rick Madden>Do you conceive of all of education being this kind of thing? <v Rick Madden>Is there any place in our educational program at all where you really <v Rick Madden>try to accumulate and absorb subject matter for the sake of accumulating <v Rick Madden>and or absorbing subject matter? <v Dr. Suchman>Well, I let's say that I think there there is plenty of room for for <v Dr. Suchman>didactic teaching or for even rote learning for certain kinds of things. <v Dr. Suchman>I think the child has to rote learning his multiplication table. <v Dr. Suchman>I think it's a I say he has to because I think that there are times when <v Dr. Suchman>this is having this knowledge at your fingertips as mighty handy. <v Dr. Suchman>And to have to sit down and figure it out every time seems like a tremendous waste of <v Dr. Suchman>energy. I think that there are certain kinds of learning that <v Dr. Suchman>for which this is a very useful and very important. <v Dr. Suchman>What I think that it's it ought <v Dr. Suchman>to be within a general context of inquiry.
<v Dr. Suchman>In other words, children may be exploring an idea <v Dr. Suchman>or trying to find meaning in some particular experience, trying to explain it. <v Dr. Suchman>I'd say and I suddenly realize that a teachable moment <v Dr. Suchman>has arrived, has arisen that there there's a particular <v Dr. Suchman>time now where it seems appropriate for me to introduce <v Dr. Suchman>this child to a particular concept. And so I step in and I try to help him develop a new <v Dr. Suchman>concept that will help him continue his inquiry more productively. <v Dr. Suchman>Now, within the context of inquiry, I think there's plenty of room for program learning, <v Dr. Suchman>for didactic teaching and for rote learning as a way to help him become a more powerful <v Dr. Suchman>inquiry. <v Rick Madden>Mr. Reed, I see that you are getting itchy in your chair. <v Rick Madden>You must have a question. <v Gerald Reed>How does a teacher encourage inquiry for students in an arithmetic <v Gerald Reed>class? <v Dr. Suchman>Well, of course, now arithmetic, as it's been conceived and <v Dr. Suchman>applied in the school, is one of the things Joe Schwab calls the axiomatics.
<v Dr. Suchman>Arithmetic is a kind of how to do it area that <v Dr. Suchman>your whole your whole objective at inquiry is to get an answer. <v Dr. Suchman>And arithmetic is to get an answer to a problem. <v Dr. Suchman>My feeling is that where arithmetic is concerned, persay, <v Dr. Suchman>I think that perhaps we ought to deal more with the specific skills here <v Dr. Suchman>and help the children develop them through various kinds of exercises. <v Dr. Suchman>But arithmetic is of course, not all of mathematics nixes is simply one <v Dr. Suchman>small part of mathematics. <v Gerald Reed>I would like to ask then do you think this kind of learning lends <v Gerald Reed>itself well in the study of mathematics? <v Dr. Suchman>Inquiry? Yes, by all means. <v Dr. Suchman>I think mathematics is. <v Dr. Suchman>It involves the understanding of quantitative relationships. <v Dr. Suchman>And I feel that the children can explore these in great many ways <v Dr. Suchman>on their own. I will take, for example, ?inaudible?.
<v Dr. Suchman>I think this is a good example of how we have moved from the old approach to mathematics, <v Dr. Suchman>where here a child dealing concretely with quantitative <v Dr. Suchman>relationships in the form of blocks can begin <v Dr. Suchman>to essentially invent for himself symbolic systems <v Dr. Suchman>that account for or describe the relationships he sees in the concrete blocks. <v Dr. Suchman>Now, that's a far cry from the kind of arithmetic that we used to teach. <v Dr. Suchman>It's a matter of fact, it isn't really arithmetic. <v Dr. Suchman>And increasing your blocks is not arithmetic at all. <v Dr. Suchman>But dealing with very fundamental mathematical events. <v Rick Madden>We'll return now to Circleville, Mr Goeglein line there. <v Fred Goeglein>The only thing that we might ask in connection indirectly connection with this <v Fred Goeglein>is that doesn't the inquiry approach requires a great deal or a rigid grouping for <v Fred Goeglein>students of different abilities in certain areas? <v Rick Madden>This obviously is an organizational pattern.
<v Rick Madden>Do we need to teach this way, do we- are there levels of inquiry <v Rick Madden>must we deal with one either socioeconomic or one intellectual group at one level <v Rick Madden>and another one at another level and another at another level? <v Rick Madden>Are there levels that we need to deal with here? <v Dr. Suchman>I believe I understood the question to be involved rigid grouping and I, <v Dr. Suchman>my feeling is that the rigidity here is not at all necessary. <v Dr. Suchman>I think it's quite undesirable. <v Rick Madden>Let's, let's return then to Circleville and to Mr. Goeglein Line to see <v Rick Madden>if we have gotten the question correctly. <v Speaker>Yes, that's correct. I just wanted to find out what his opinion was on that in regard <v Speaker>to rigid grouping and in connection with the inquiry method. <v Dr. Suchman>Yeah. Let me say that I think not only should there be flexibility, but I think <v Dr. Suchman>the grouping has to evolve in terms of the interest and the needs of the children, both <v Dr. Suchman>as perceived by the children themselves and by the teacher. <v Dr. Suchman>Sometimes it's good for children who are inquiring to be together with other children who <v Dr. Suchman>are operating somewhat at the same level of knowledge and understanding in the area that
<v Dr. Suchman>they're inquiring into. Sometimes that helps a great deal to be to have a wide range. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think that a good deal of sensitivity to <v Dr. Suchman>this helps a lot. But I would certainly veer away from any kind <v Dr. Suchman>of fixed pattern. I think teachers have to experiment with this. <v Dr. Suchman>And so do students. <v Rick Madden>This implies a certain kind of teacher that is somewhat different than <v Rick Madden>we have thought about in the past. <v Rick Madden>Here is a diagnostic prescriptive kind of thing for each individual. <v Rick Madden>Would you like to speak to that point just a little bit? <v Rick Madden>Dr. Schulman? <v Dr. Suchman>Certainly, yes. <v Dr. Suchman>I think that we need teachers who are <v Dr. Suchman>somewhat more relaxed and the pressure is off. <v Dr. Suchman>And that means teachers who who are feeling comfortable about experimenting and <v Dr. Suchman>not knowing how things are going to work out for sure. <v Dr. Suchman>I think that that kind of teachers, it does exist already. <v Dr. Suchman>I think that one of the things we can do to create more of such teachers is to take the
<v Dr. Suchman>pressures off them. I think people are more willing to try things out and <v Dr. Suchman>not be afraid to experiment. <v Dr. Suchman>If we make this kind of thing OK, that is administratively, <v Dr. Suchman>if we make the teachers feel that we expect them to do this sort of thing, <v Dr. Suchman>that it's it's understood that a teacher <v Dr. Suchman>is going to have to try things out. And in order to grow professionally, I think the <v Dr. Suchman>teacher has to be an inquirer into the process of education. <v Dr. Suchman>And the only way you can do this is by experimenting yourself as a teacher. <v Rick Madden>I hope I won't spoil another question that may come up later on the network, but I think <v Rick Madden>it's real appropriate at this time for me then to ask the question how is teaching <v Rick Madden>by inquiry as you are defining it, likely to fit in with a prescribed <v Rick Madden>course of study or meeting the testing programs that we are, that we deal with regionally <v Rick Madden>or nationally? <v Dr. Suchman>Well, there are 2 answers to that. First of all, I think there's considerable <v Dr. Suchman>evidence now that if children or anybody is learning by inquiry in the long run,
<v Dr. Suchman>his, his knowledge is going to be considerably greater than if he's taught didactically. <v Dr. Suchman>And I'm saying in the long run, in the short run, possibly the reverse may be true <v Dr. Suchman>in a in a very short period of time. If I had 2 hours to work with a group of children <v Dr. Suchman>and have them pass a particular test, I think I would be very didactic. <v Dr. Suchman>But if I had 2 years, for, and I'm not just saying for 1 test, <v Dr. Suchman>I've had 2 years with those children in terms of the range of material that I would <v Dr. Suchman>ordinarily teach in a 2 year period, I'd feel much better about letting them enquire <v Dr. Suchman>when they're inquiring, they're learning most of the time when we're teaching <v Dr. Suchman>didactically. They may be learning some of the time when I'm talking, but a lot of that <v Dr. Suchman>time I'm not at all sure they would be learning. <v Dr. Suchman>So I think my feeling here is as for the <v Dr. Suchman>the positive effects of inquiry in terms of the gains of the children cognitively. <v Dr. Suchman>Now as far as the tests are concerned, here's the other answer. <v Dr. Suchman>I think we we we may be measuring the wrong things with our tests.
<v Dr. Suchman>I think there's a great danger that our tests are measuring one kind of thing. <v Dr. Suchman>An inquiry is developing quite another, so that until we have a ways of assessing <v Dr. Suchman>the gains that children are making through inquiry that are quite apart from the simple <v Dr. Suchman>notions that are being tested by the test, then we really can't use <v Dr. Suchman>those tests to measure the effects of a programme that focuses on inquiry. <v Rick Madden>So we would have to have another kind of testing programme when and if we move into this <v Rick Madden>kind of thing. <v Dr. Suchman>Certainly another approach to evaluation which does exist. <v Dr. Suchman>We've worked on this and there are other ways of assessing growth in pupils besides <v Dr. Suchman>the existing standardized tests. <v Rick Madden>Before we continue with our questioning, we will have <v Rick Madden>our station break at this moment. <v Rick Madden>This is the Ohio Education Network. <v Announcer>In Columbus, Ohio, this is WOSUFM 89.7 Megahertz. <v Rick Madden>We will continue our questioning by going to Kettering Board of Education Building
<v Rick Madden>Kettering L. Howard Flatterer is there. <v Mr. Segments>This is Mr. Segments speaking for Mr. Flatterer. <v Mr. Segments>We have 2 questions and we would like to give this question first. <v Mr. Segments>Being interested in the development of creative thinking in children, I see an excellent <v Mr. Segments>possibility of encouraging creativity through inquiry learning. <v Mr. Segments>Have any studies been attempted that would suggest specific techniques and specific <v Mr. Segments>materials to facilitate the process of creativity through inquiry <v Mr. Segments>teaching? <v Rick Madden>Now, we have 2 things here, and by definition, we've used the word creativity <v Rick Madden>and we have used the word inquiry. <v Rick Madden>In your context. Dr. Suchman, when do you separate these 2 or are they 1 and <v Rick Madden>the same thing for you? <v Dr. Suchman>Oh, that's of course, it's a difficult thing to answer because people who use <v Dr. Suchman>word words in different ways. <v Dr. Suchman>My own feeling is that there is a good deal of creativity involved in inquiry.
<v Dr. Suchman>Actually, the process of inquiry involves going beyond data to formulate <v Dr. Suchman>ideas and theories. Now, this is a highly creative process. <v Dr. Suchman>There are no rules. There is no algorithm for moving from data to theory. <v Dr. Suchman>It's a leap and it's it's got to be a creative leap. <v Dr. Suchman>So the child looks at some phenomenon and he gets a theory. <v Dr. Suchman>Well, a theory doesn't come to him in any kind of automatic way. <v Dr. Suchman>It emerges as a creative act on his part. <v Dr. Suchman>Now, there may be more specific rules for testing the theory, even that, though, would <v Dr. Suchman>involve some creativity. But I don't see them as 2 separate things. <v Dr. Suchman>I think a creative act is seen time and again in the process of inquiry. <v Rick Madden>Now, I'd like to go back to Kettering to see whether their concept of creativity <v Rick Madden>was a separate thing or rather it was a unitary thing, as Dr. Suchman <v Rick Madden>has indicated. <v Mr. Segments>Well, I would say in commenting on that, that our idea with <v Mr. Segments>creativity and the development of creativity is the point that we
<v Mr. Segments>really are questioning as to whether creativity can be developed. <v Mr. Segments>We believe that it can, consequently seeking a means to develop <v Mr. Segments>it. It appears that inquiry method of learning would be an ideal <v Mr. Segments>vehicle for this purpose. <v Mr. Segments>So in that way, I presume that we are talking about one and the same thing, <v Mr. Segments>although there are some factors related to Dr. Suchman's speech <v Mr. Segments>that would indicate that in all instances of inquiry, would we, <v Mr. Segments>inquiry learning, could we go along with this? <v Mr. Segments>We would have to leave it more open ended in all of respects <v Mr. Segments>in order to develop the idea of creativity. <v Dr. Suchman>Well, I think that the creativity comes <v Dr. Suchman>about as a result of a number of conditions. <v Dr. Suchman>So let me let me talk about these and then you can decide for yourself whether inquiry <v Dr. Suchman>learning as through inquiry would do it.
<v Dr. Suchman>I think for one thing, the autonomy is a tremendously important factor. <v Dr. Suchman>If a child is not or anybody is not autonomous, he can't be creative because <v Dr. Suchman>autonomy is by definition self-direction, self initiation, self-control. <v Dr. Suchman>And if you haven't got this, can this autonomous <v Dr. Suchman>way of functioning, then you can't create. <v Dr. Suchman>Simple as that. I think inquiry develops autonomy. <v Dr. Suchman>It makes a child or anybody more <v Dr. Suchman>in charge of his own learning and his own operations as a learner. <v Dr. Suchman>Then I think the inquiry also leads <v Dr. Suchman>to the expansion of one's knowledge structure, a meaningful expansion that grows <v Dr. Suchman>from the concrete toward the abstract. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think there is nothing like an expanding knowledge structure <v Dr. Suchman>to give you the ammunition you need as a creative person.
<v Dr. Suchman>Inquiry also builds one's skills for <v Dr. Suchman>applying ideas and testing them. <v Dr. Suchman>And here again, I think this can in many instances play an <v Dr. Suchman>important role in the creative process. <v Dr. Suchman>So in a sense, I guess I feel that inquiry builds the number of the functions <v Dr. Suchman>it is learning through inquiry tends to build a number of the functions that <v Dr. Suchman>are involved in being creative, a creative person. <v Rick Madden>We'll return to Kettering now to see whether there is further elaboration on that <v Rick Madden>question. <v Mr. Segments>We'll let it rest there. <v Rick Madden>We'll then proceed to Montgomery County in Dayton. <v Rick Madden>Mr. Harry France there. <v Harry France>Montgomery County has no further questions. <v Harry France>Thank you. <v Rick Madden>We will then go on to Shawnee High School. <v Rick Madden>Amol Childs, there. <v Amol Childs>In regards Dr. Suchman's comments, he says there are some inquiry <v Amol Childs>evaluation materials available.
<v Amol Childs>Would he be able to comment on a few of these this time? <v Dr. Suchman>Well, let me speak of one. <v Dr. Suchman>It's called the Inquiry Box. <v Dr. Suchman>It's a device which enables a person <v Dr. Suchman>to try to develop a theory in relation to what's inside a wooden box that's been closed. <v Dr. Suchman>Inside the box there's a mechanical linkage, which has been set up. <v Dr. Suchman>There are a number of such linkages that can be set up in the box. <v Dr. Suchman>And there were slots around the outside of the box so that the learner can manipulate <v Dr. Suchman>the parts of this linkage that's that protrude from the box and observe how an input <v Dr. Suchman>affects an output. But they can't see what's in the middle. <v Dr. Suchman>And then they have a probing device, a stick which can be used, <v Dr. Suchman>inserted through this lot as a way of determining further what's inside. <v Dr. Suchman>Now, there's a theory sheet that's placed on top of the box where the child records what <v Dr. Suchman>he thinks is inside the box out. <v Dr. Suchman>There are ways of recording the operations of a student as he tries
<v Dr. Suchman>to ascertain what's inside. And as he records this on the theory sheet and there are <v Dr. Suchman>ways of diagnosing the strategies that the child uses so that you can begin to see <v Dr. Suchman>the way he's going about this process of building and testing <v Dr. Suchman>his theory. <v Dr. Suchman>This is one of a number of possibilities. <v Dr. Suchman>We develop something called the Quest Test, which is <v Dr. Suchman>a an inquiry session where the student is shown a film <v Dr. Suchman>of a physical event and then is given a given a certain <v Dr. Suchman>amount of time to ask questions, to gather data pertaining to this event <v Dr. Suchman>so that he can devise a theory. <v Dr. Suchman>After about 25 minutes, he is, <v Dr. Suchman>the session is over, an extensive interview is conducted with the student <v Dr. Suchman>to find out just what knowledge he has gathered as a result of his inquiries. <v Dr. Suchman>And then the questioning strategy is analyzed later as a basis for <v Dr. Suchman>looking at his inquiry process.
<v Dr. Suchman>These are just two of the existing materials <v Dr. Suchman>that have been developed for analyzing and assessing the child <v Dr. Suchman>is an inquirer. <v Rick Madden>If there is a reason for further word on this communication directed <v Rick Madden>to you was your you would be welcome. <v Rick Madden>We'll go back to Amol Childs at Shawnee to see where there's further elaboration on this <v Rick Madden>that he would like to make. <v Amol Childs>No more further, we'll contact Dr. Suchman by letter. <v Amol Childs>Thank you. <v Rick Madden>We will then move on to North High School in Springfield, Carl Wybert <v Rick Madden>there,. <v Carl Wybert>Yes, I'm here and we have not <v Carl Wybert>a lot of questions, but there is 1 thing that I would like to have cleared up. <v Carl Wybert>Mentions that the internal psychological state of the learner was important <v Carl Wybert>and it had to do with a kind of tension that's necessary for inquiry <v Carl Wybert>take place, that the tension is necessary for <v Carl Wybert>inquiry. And we could should consider ways of generating this tension.
<v Carl Wybert>Mental health people continually advise the teachers to reduce <v Carl Wybert>and keep tensions and students to as low as <v Carl Wybert>possible. Can you explain how the tension referred to here <v Carl Wybert>is different from the tension that the mental hygienist might be speaking <v Carl Wybert>of? <v Dr. Suchman>I, I think and I I'm not going to say that I'm absolutely <v Dr. Suchman>sure. But I think the kind of tension that they're referring to has more to <v Dr. Suchman>do with anxiety, tensions produced by perhaps <v Dr. Suchman>fears that one isn't going to succeed or one isn't being accepted. <v Dr. Suchman>I'm referring to quite a different kind of tension. <v Dr. Suchman>It's a tension that's borne out of the feeling <v Dr. Suchman>that you would like to have more meaning pertaining to something than you have. <v Dr. Suchman>Call it a motivation. Call it a drive.
<v Dr. Suchman>Call it a wish. I happened to choose the word tension because it <v Dr. Suchman>just seemed appropriate. <v Dr. Suchman>It isn't that the child is unhappy. It's not that he's feeling down. <v Dr. Suchman>It's just that he's he's feeling that he would like to to <v Dr. Suchman>rise to this occasion and find some way of making more sense out of this thing <v Dr. Suchman>that he's looking at or that he's hearing or whatever. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think if he's perfectly content with his level of understanding <v Dr. Suchman>with something, he's not going to do anything. <v Dr. Suchman>He's not going to try to raise his level of meaning if he's satisfied with the level he's <v Dr. Suchman>got. So by creating this kind of tension, you're really essentially <v Dr. Suchman>making the child dissatisfied with his level of understanding of something. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think this kind of dissatisfaction is very important. <v Dr. Suchman>I think the contented cow idea is it's really a stultifying <v Dr. Suchman>thing in education. <v Rick Madden>This this is real interesting. Are you talking about the kind of feelings that <v Rick Madden>grow over you when you see the new automobiles as we are now in the show room?
<v Rick Madden>And maybe this is maybe it's kind of a possessive thing sometimes? <v Rick Madden>Now, there's nothing bad about this as I see it, but it's it's the desire <v Rick Madden>to have something or to do something or to possess something more than you do <v Rick Madden>at the moment. <v Dr. Suchman>Yeah. Except I really am not referring to it in terms of physical possession of <v Dr. Suchman>something, but in terms of meaning. <v Dr. Suchman>I guess it really does come right down to a desire to understand <v Dr. Suchman>something better. I don't think we like to be stay puzzled. <v Dr. Suchman>It's fun to have a puzzle. In fact, one of the one of the exciting things about <v Dr. Suchman>trying to solve a puzzle is the tension of not having it solved yet. <v Dr. Suchman>That's what keeps us going. That's why we we do jigsaw puzzles or crossword <v Dr. Suchman>puzzles. We enjoy that tension. It's not unpleasant, really unpleasant thing. <v Dr. Suchman>It's a kind of stimulating. <v Rick Madden>Or the same kind of thing that drives you on to finish a book because somewhere you've <v Rick Madden>gotten yourself involved so much in in the story here, the plot or something, <v Rick Madden>that you just can't lay it down till you find out really what happens there on that last
<v Rick Madden>page, murder mystery or whatever it might be. <v Dr. Suchman>Sure. I look at the tension that that a magician creates with a group of children when he <v Dr. Suchman>does a magic trick and the children can't figure it out. <v Dr. Suchman>And they they keep saying, tell us how you did it. <v Dr. Suchman>Show us how, you know, they they enjoy that tension. <v Dr. Suchman>And I think that it's something like that. <v Rick Madden>It would appear then that he is talking about something different and then the mental <v Rick Madden>hygienist. But let's now go back to Springfield and Carl Wybert to see whether there is <v Rick Madden>some further idea there. <v Carl Wybert>I think you've cleared up the problem. <v Rick Madden>We then have two questions that we'll start around the network again. <v Rick Madden>First, we'll go to Circleville. Mr. Goeglein. <v Fred Goeglein>Second question, How closely does this follow the Montessori <v Fred Goeglein>method? <v Dr. Suchman>Well, as I understand it, the Montessori method is has very specific outcomes <v Dr. Suchman>for each exercise that the children are given to do and that <v Dr. Suchman>it's expected that through interacting with the equipment that is provided
<v Dr. Suchman>and I'm taking it now in the very strict sense of the Montessori method, not the perhaps <v Dr. Suchman>the recent modifications, it is expected that by interacting with these materials, <v Dr. Suchman>the child will learn a particular kind of thing. <v Dr. Suchman>And the these outcomes are well known in advance and are expected. <v Dr. Suchman>I feel that inquiry is a much more open ended thing. <v Dr. Suchman>You really don't know where an inquiry is going to lead. <v Dr. Suchman>That's one of the beautiful things about inquiry. <v Dr. Suchman>It's prospective learning. A prospector goes out. <v Dr. Suchman>He doesn't really know what he's going to find. He finds all kinds of things. <v Dr. Suchman>I feel that that that there is the big difference. <v Dr. Suchman>Inquiry is a is a search. A search for expanding, <v Dr. Suchman>meaning a search for more <v Dr. Suchman>ways to interpret one's world and more <v Dr. Suchman>meaningful ways of interpreting his world. <v Dr. Suchman>And I don't know, I really can't speak in any authoritative sense
<v Dr. Suchman>about the Montessori method. But I I don't my understanding of it <v Dr. Suchman>is that its goals are not quite that broad. <v Rick Madden>We'll return to Mr. Goeglein in Circleville. <v Rick Madden>Does he have further comment? <v Fred Goeglein>No further comment at this time. <v Rick Madden>For a very quick 1, we'll go to Kettering. Could you give us your question very quickly? <v Mr. Segments>My teachers need the security of structure, an immediate objective reinforcement to their <v Mr. Segments>feeling of teaching success. <v Mr. Segments>How can we give them this needed security with inquiry teaching? <v Dr. Suchman> I think we have to stop and think of what <v Dr. Suchman>what really makes children feel secure? <v Dr. Suchman>Is it success as defined by some teacher who says you're right or you're wrong? <v Dr. Suchman>Or is it a sense of of autonomy <v Dr. Suchman>and a sense that you can you can create theories by yourself <v Dr. Suchman>and you can also gather data as a way of testing out your own theories? <v Dr. Suchman>I think that we have defined success too much in terms of
<v Dr. Suchman>the system of rewards and the system of right and wrong that we in education have <v Dr. Suchman>defined. And I feel that a child can experience <v Dr. Suchman>his power as a thinking individual outside of that framework. <v Dr. Suchman>He does not need to have authorities telling him that he's right and wrong in order to <v Dr. Suchman>experience his worth and power as a learner. <v Dr. Suchman>As a matter of fact, I feel that that kind of system actually <v Dr. Suchman>fails to give him the greatest sense of power that he could have. <v Rick Madden>Thank you very much, Mr. Reed and Dr. Suchman. <v Rick Madden>This has been a most interesting discussion on the teaching of inquiry. <v Rick Madden>I'll be in touch with each of you tomorrow morning on the beeper phone network. <v Announcer>As an educational feature, The Ohio State University Telecommunications Center <v Announcer>in cooperation with the Ohio State University College of Education continuing Education <v Announcer>Network has just presented another in a series of 2 way discussions. <v Announcer>Today's discussion featured Dr. J. Richard Suchman, educational consultant at Palo
<v Announcer>Alto, California, and Mr. Gerald W. <v Announcer>Reed, head of the Mathematics Department of Madison Township High School <v Announcer>in Trotwood, Ohio, and the staffs of 7 schools in Ohio. <v Announcer>The next program in this series will be heard Monday, December 11th at 3:45 p.m.. <v Announcer>The topic? Team teaching. The speaker on that date will be Mr. Richard <v Announcer>Hunt, principal of the Kanawa Junior High School in Kanawa, West Virginia. <v Announcer>This is the Ohio Education Network.
Series
Education Network
Episode
Teaching By Inquiry
Producing Organization
WOSU (Television station : Columbus, Ohio)
Ohio State University. College of Education. Radio-Telephone Network
Contributing Organization
The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia (Athens, Georgia)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip-526-3r0pr7nr4h
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Description
Episode Description
This episode features Dr. J. Richard Suchman, an educational consultant from Palo Alto, California discussing the inquiry method of learning for classrooms and how it compares to contemporary teaching paradigms. The callers are all various Ohio high school and elementary school staff and administrators and Dr. Suchman fields most of the questions.
Series Description
"These discussion programs, broadcast six times a year to seven school systems on Mondays, eight on Tuesdays, and two on Wednesdays, consist of a speaker, an expert in his field, who gives a twenty-minute presentation and then, during a forty-minute period, answers questions asked over a network of telephone lines."--1967 Peabody Awards entry form.
Broadcast Date
1967-11-13
Created Date
1967-11-13
Asset type
Episode
Media type
Sound
Duration
00:59:49.800
Embed Code
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Credits
Producing Organization: WOSU (Television station : Columbus, Ohio)
Producing Organization: Ohio State University. College of Education. Radio-Telephone Network
Speaker: McBride, W.
Speaker: Suchman, J. Richard
Speaker: Reed, Gerald
Speaker: Madden, Rick
AAPB Contributor Holdings
The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia
Identifier: cpb-aacip-c2882902b1f (Filename)
Format: 1/4 inch audio tape
If you have a copy of this asset and would like us to add it to our catalog, please contact us.
Citations
Chicago: “Education Network; Teaching By Inquiry,” 1967-11-13, The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 28, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-526-3r0pr7nr4h.
MLA: “Education Network; Teaching By Inquiry.” 1967-11-13. The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 28, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-526-3r0pr7nr4h>.
APA: Education Network; Teaching By Inquiry. Boston, MA: The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-526-3r0pr7nr4h