Chicago Week in Review; No. 1347; 1991-05-25

<v Announcer>[intro music] Issues, events and people in the news. <v Announcer>This is Chicago Week in Review with Joel Weisman. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>Welcome to a special edition of Chicago Week in Review. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>In this The Year of the Child, we devote our entire program to issues relating <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>to children. One of every five children in the United States lives in poverty. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>In Chicago, it's higher: one in every three. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>What's it like to be a child in a neighborhood that doesn't allow you to be one? <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>What effect will budget cuts have on Chicago schoolchildren? <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>We'll tackle some of the pressing problems facing our children, including gang violence, <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>cuts in community and health services, and examine the status of today's family. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>Sharing his insights is Alex Kotlowitz of The Wall Street Journal, author of There Are <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>No Children Here. Leslie Baldacci of the Chicago Sun-Times tells of the <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>problems facing latchkey kids. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>Karen Thomas, education writer for the Chicago Tribune, opens the book on problems <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>facing Chicago schoolchildren. <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>And Mary Galligan, editorial writer for the Chicago Sun-Times, offers possible solutions <v Joel Weisman, Moderator>to myriad children's problems.

<v Joel Weisman>Alex, your book has gotten quite a lot of attention. <v Joel Weisman>What was it you did in that book and how does it pertain to this the year the children? <v Alex Kotlowitz>Well, my book follows, uh, two young boys who grow up in a public housing complex on the <v Alex Kotlowitz>west side of Chicago. And essentially, it allows readers to spend two years, uh, <v Alex Kotlowitz>with these kids and understand what it's like and, uh, some of the horrors of growing <v Alex Kotlowitz>up in a place like the Henry Horner Homes, which I write about. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And the, uh, ultimately, I think what you see is particular among the young kids that I <v Alex Kotlowitz>write about, the kids who have not yet entered adolescence, this is enormous tension <v Alex Kotlowitz>between one on the one hand wanting to hold onto their childhood, wanting to do all <v Alex Kotlowitz>the things that we all did as children--?inaudible? go on dates, shoot marbles, play <v Alex Kotlowitz>basketball, hunt for snakes, and yet having their childhood snatched from them at a very <v Alex Kotlowitz>early age. I mean, having witnessed all the violence, having lost older siblings, <v Alex Kotlowitz>in some cases parents to drugs, um, growing up in a, a physical environment <v Alex Kotlowitz>that is just, uh, dehumanizing and, uh, would you lose some sense of dignity? <v Alex Kotlowitz>And you can see these children at that age really trying to hold onto their childhood.

<v Joel Weisman>Is it a universal, though, feeling, are, aren't there some people that come out of this <v Joel Weisman>just fine? <v Alex Kotlowitz>I don't think as much as it used to be. <v Alex Kotlowitz>There used to be a time when pe-, when kids were able to make it out of a place like <v Alex Kotlowitz>Henry Horner. I think it's extraordinarily difficult now for children to make it out of <v Alex Kotlowitz>neighborhoods like that intact. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Uh, you can see, for example, just the vi-, the enormous toll the violence takes on the, <v Alex Kotlowitz>on the children. I talked to one boy who was 13 years old and talked about actually <v Alex Kotlowitz>having flashbacks of having watched his cousin shot in a gang war. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And what was your worst yet is here's his 13 year old boy telling me that he wishes he <v Alex Kotlowitz>were 8 years old again, telling me he wishes he were a child again. <v Joel Weisman>What about the, the family situation, Leslie? <v Joel Weisman>You write about families for the, for the Sun-Times. <v Joel Weisman>Is this typical that that that violence and despair have ruined <v Joel Weisman>the childhoods? What segment of the population would say that's true for? <v Leslie Baldacci>I would say it's, uh, almost a universal problem. <v Leslie Baldacci>I think that the people that Alex is dealing with are seeing this in a very concentrated <v Leslie Baldacci>dose of violence and being exposed to drugs and and maybe not growing up with

<v Leslie Baldacci>families intact. But these are problems that are faced by more <v Leslie Baldacci>children than not, growing up in either with a guardian <v Leslie Baldacci>or with a single parent or in blended families growing up, uh, <v Leslie Baldacci>in a in, where they may be in danger going to school. <v Joel Weisman>Let's, let's talk about-- <v Leslie Baldacci>And under a lot of other stresses that middle class and even upper class children are <v Leslie Baldacci>vulnerable to. <v Joel Weisman>Well, we're going to get to some of the middle and upper class stresses in a moment. <v Joel Weisman>How does this play out in school? Uh, is there a chance for the school to, uh, salvage <v Joel Weisman>some of these children or deal with some of their problems of, say, in the public housing <v Joel Weisman>projects? <v Karen Thomas>Well, I think that will be the challenge of the schools. <v Karen Thomas>I think what has happened so far is, is that kids in society <v Karen Thomas>has changed, too. Well, kids haven't, but their family structure in society has changed. <v Karen Thomas>And the kids are going to bring all of that into school. <v Karen Thomas>I mean, that doesn't stay at home when they walk through the school doors. <v Karen Thomas>Schools, by and large, have stayed the way they have been for a very long time. <v Karen Thomas>They have not yet risen to the challenge of meeting that.

<v Karen Thomas>There's some interesting things going on where hopefully we're starting to see the <v Karen Thomas>beginning of that. <v Joel Weisman>Is it too much to ask, though, for the schools to, to, uh, to deal with the mammoth <v Joel Weisman>psychological and economic problems that the baggage that these these children bring? <v Karen Thomas>It's a heck of a lot of to ask the schools to do. <v Karen Thomas>But I think what the schools can do and can probably do well is to serve sort of as a hub <v Karen Thomas>for agencies to come in and, and to deal with this. <v Karen Thomas>I mean, someone, there's still the really vital fabric of certain communities. <v Karen Thomas>And if you use that, if you tap into that, if you could just be a resource wealth <v Karen Thomas>that's sitting there and hasn't been developed. <v Joel Weisman>Mary Galligan, what would, what would the people who have the money say about these <v Joel Weisman>problems? I mean, if I'm a taxpayer living in DuPage County and I've seen my taxes double <v Joel Weisman>over the last six years, do I want to kick in more money to let the schools deal with the <v Joel Weisman>problems created by public housing? <v Mary Galligan>You might want to kick in some extra money. <v Mary Galligan>The problem is in a, in a year like we're facing this year and in Springfield, there <v Mary Galligan>is no extra money. Uh, we're going to be lucky to see the, uh, the surcharge <v Mary Galligan>on the income tax passed this year.

<v Mary Galligan>Governor [James] Edgar has asked for about 30 million dollars more put into the general <v Mary Galligan>state fund, but he's not really coming up with any new programs that would go to schools. <v Mary Galligan>And we know the Chicago Public Schools face an enormous budget problem. <v Mary Galligan>So there are examples all over the city of some very good programs <v Mary Galligan>going on at local schools or outside of the schools that want to get <v Mary Galligan>into the schools. But you know, who's got the money for it? <v Mary Galligan>That that's really the key question. <v Joel Weisman>Well, what about it? Is it really just a matter of money, Alex? <v Joel Weisman>If, if the CHA [Chicago Housing Authority] had X more dollars, uh, could the example <v Joel Weisman>children that you wrote about have a better life? <v Alex Kotlowitz>I think money would make an enormous difference. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I think we make a terrible mistake if we suh- suggest that we look at back <v Alex Kotlowitz>at, let's say what did the Great Society programs and look at all that failed and say, <v Alex Kotlowitz>oh, well, it didn't work. And let's not throw any more money at the problem. <v Alex Kotlowitz>But in fact, there were programs that did work. I mean, you look at Head Start, for <v Alex Kotlowitz>example, uh, enormous successes. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And we do need, uh, some resources. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And in fact, the cities and states are enormously strapped, as Mary points out.

<v Alex Kotlowitz>And I think it's going to take some some federal involvement. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And that is going to be very difficult in this political climate. <v Joel Weisman>Well, but if, uh, if we take that attitude that it takes more money and it takes federal <v Joel Weisman>involvement, state, city involvement, and so on. <v Joel Weisman>Is is that somewhat of a cop-out from not trying to solve the problem with the resources <v Joel Weisman>that you have and say that until we get more money, we're gonna, uh, we're just going to <v Joel Weisman>have to accept the situation? <v Alex Kotlowitz>No. In fact, I think we're sort of at an unusual historical juncture because you look at <v Alex Kotlowitz>the vacuum that was created during the Reagan years and you look and you look in <v Alex Kotlowitz>neighborhoods like on the west side of Chicago and you see these sort of grassroots <v Alex Kotlowitz>organizations and efforts that have sprung up during that period and that have been <v Alex Kotlowitz>enormously successful in their own limited way. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean-- <v Joel Weisman>Give me an example. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Well, an example of the community development corporations on the west side of Chicago, <v Alex Kotlowitz>Bethel New Life, which has actually helped families on public aid move into <v Alex Kotlowitz>brand new homes and become first-time homeowners. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Um. Or you look at what uh, James Comer, who is a professor of, <v Alex Kotlowitz>of, I believe, education at Yale, who has come to work in four Chicago schools and, and

<v Alex Kotlowitz>as Karen suggested, use the schools as a, as a central community hub. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And you have social workers work with the families out of there. <v Alex Kotlowitz>These are enormously successful programs, but they need some assistance. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And I think we're at an unusual period in time where we can take advantage of that <v Alex Kotlowitz>and take advantage of these organizations that have sprung up out of this vacuum that <v Alex Kotlowitz>we've created-- <v Joel Weisman>So in other words, out of the vacuum, out of the stop, as stopgap things try to <v Joel Weisman>permanentize them by giving them some money? <v Alex Kotlowitz>Right. <v Joel Weisman>Ah, what about the the idea of the family? <v Joel Weisman>Everybody talks about the traditional family values have disappeared, and <v Joel Weisman>you can't keep a family together. High divorce rate, mothers working, latchkey kids. <v Joel Weisman>You write about the families. What's the status of the family today, this year? <v Leslie Baldacci>Everybody agrees that families today are under tremendous stress, more so than they've <v Leslie Baldacci>ever been before. They've pretty much hit the skids, is a very bad time for families <v Leslie Baldacci>of all economic, uh, all income brackets. <v Leslie Baldacci>It seems that the children that Alex wrote about, uh, are under these sort of stresses

<v Leslie Baldacci>all the time. It's like a permanent situation with violence and bad schools and all these <v Leslie Baldacci>other things thrown in. And then when you look at the typical middle class family, <v Leslie Baldacci>they may not, they may have all those problems yet with none of the supports, <v Leslie Baldacci>you know, maybe no subsidized daycare. <v Leslie Baldacci>Maybe, uh, they are, don't uh, have grassroots <v Leslie Baldacci>groups at their disposal in their neighborhood working with them. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Right. And I think one of the difficulties we've had in this society, both poor and rich, <v Alex Kotlowitz>is to figure out how to deal with the institution of the family. <v Alex Kotlowitz>It's been a sacred institution that we refuse to have any involvement with. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And I think we need to really begin to rethink our involvement-- <v Joel Weisman>But who's the we that's supposed to be rethinking it? Is it the government? <v Joel Weisman>Is it the church-- <v Leslie Baldacci>But we're stuck in this-- <v Alex Kotlowitz>I think the government and agencies that are working with these, with these groups-- <v Leslie Baldacci>Government's trying to get involved in it. <v Leslie Baldacci>I mean, just this week or next week, when Congress reconvenes after the break, <v Leslie Baldacci>they're going to be talking about the parental leave bill. <v Leslie Baldacci>And, you know, we hear a kinder and gentler words about the sanctity of the family and <v Leslie Baldacci>how important it is and, and building strong families.

<v Leslie Baldacci>And this'll make strong kids-- <v Joel Weisman>Politicians run on that. <v Leslie Baldacci>--able to to fight off all the bad around them. <v Leslie Baldacci>Well, great. But if George Bush will again veto the ?inaudible? <v Leslie Baldacci>bill and other-- <v Joel Weisman>But let's not blame George Bush. What about-- <v Other participant>But there are other-- <v Joel Weisman>What about mom and dad? What are they, what are they doing or should they be doing? <v Leslie Baldacci>They're working. <v Joel Weisman>And what does that have to do with kids then? <v Leslie Baldacci>They're working because out of economic necessity to support their families, to keep <v Leslie Baldacci>them in the neighborhoods where they feel they are not in harm's way. <v Leslie Baldacci>And, uh, they are time starved. <v Joel Weisman>And so how does that adversely affect the kids or for that matter help them? <v Joel Weisman>Maybe to be independent. <v Joel Weisman>Earlier. <v Leslie Baldacci>I'm surprised to see that um, as far as the latchkey issue, that a child who is left at <v Leslie Baldacci>home more than three hours a day, that's considered a risk factor in, to growing up. <v Joel Weisman>A risk for what? <v Leslie Baldacci>It puts them at risk for a number of things. Juvenile delinquency, drug abuse, <v Leslie Baldacci>this sort of thing. The more time they have on their hands, I guess, is the theory, the <v Leslie Baldacci>more time they have to get into trouble. <v Leslie Baldacci>And uh--

<v Joel Weisman>But but some would argue that, uh, our kids are too programed, that every moment <v Joel Weisman>of their time is spoken for. Because they have music ?inaudible?-- <v Leslie Baldacci>They're stressed out because they always-- <v Mary Galligan>But don't we have the extremes, though, right now? I mean we have the kids who are, who <v Mary Galligan>get all the, the daycare programs and preschool, and they get all <v Mary Galligan>the extra classes at one end. <v Mary Galligan>And then you have a lot of people in the middle, a lot of the, <v Mary Galligan>uh, middle-income families who don't have that extra money, who depend on <v Mary Galligan>government-subsidized daycare programs of, you know-- <v Leslie Baldacci>Or people in the middle who are working and who get their kids into the park district <v Leslie Baldacci>programs just to take care of them while they can get home. <v Leslie Baldacci>And maybe what they'd really like to do is work a four-day week and have a flexible <v Leslie Baldacci>schedule and spend more time with their children. <v Joel Weisman>But they can't, they-- <v Leslie Baldacci>Raising their own kids and they can't do it either because of a corporate, uh, <v Leslie Baldacci>attitude that says no. You have, we, it's a five day a week operation here <v Leslie Baldacci>or, um, simply because they can't afford to. <v Joel Weisman>Can't afford to give up that day. <v Leslie Baldacci>That's right. <v Joel Weisman>So what happens when the kid is alone?

<v Joel Weisman>What uh, what what what goes on? You talk about latchkey. <v Joel Weisman>That's the person who, the child who comes home and is alone? <v Leslie Baldacci>Yeah. And a lot of times-- <v Joel Weisman>Where do the rest of them go that don't do that? <v Leslie Baldacci>Well, a lot of them are not even allowed home. <v Leslie Baldacci>A lot of them don't wear the key around their neck because they're supposed to be at the <v Leslie Baldacci>library, or supposed to be somewhere else where there's an adult around <v Leslie Baldacci>to keep an eye on them, and they do their homework. <v Leslie Baldacci>And in talking to some librarians about this and a lot of, uh, libraries in Chicago and <v Leslie Baldacci>the suburbs are dealing with this problem. <v Leslie Baldacci>They said that, you know, it's really hard after kids get out of school. <v Leslie Baldacci>They want to go burn off some steam. <v Leslie Baldacci>And here they are being shushed in the library. <v Leslie Baldacci>Do your homework. Do this. Be quiet. <v Leslie Baldacci>You know, they're running in and out and they really need something beyond this. <v Leslie Baldacci>But this is the only option open to them. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And part of the problem, too, is not only sort of the breakdown of the family, but the <v Alex Kotlowitz>breakdown of community. Because there was a time when kids could come home. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And at least if their, both their parents were working, at least there might be other <v Alex Kotlowitz>people-- <v Leslie Baldacci>There were neighbors home on the block. Right. <v Alex Kotlowitz>There were neighbors, right, who could sort of watch after them. <v Joel Weisman>Or other kids on the block to do constructive things with. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Right and you see, and

<v Alex Kotlowitz>you see it amplified 100 fold in neighborhoods like Henry Horner, where, in fact, the <v Alex Kotlowitz>kids will, when you ask them whether they have any friends, they say, well, I don't have <v Alex Kotlowitz>any friends. I only have associates, friends you trust. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And there is this enormous sense--. <v Joel Weisman>Is that really how kids talk at Henry Horner? "I only have associates." <v Alex Kotlowitz>Yes. <v Joel Weisman>That's sounds like they work for a law firm. <v Alex Kotlowitz>But that's how they refer to their peers as associates. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And it's because of this sense of, of distrust. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Now, it's, it's amplified a 100 fold in a community like Henry Horner, where <v Alex Kotlowitz>you have the enormous violence and, and where people have sort of given up not only on, <v Alex Kotlowitz>on themselves, but on each other. <v Alex Kotlowitz>But uh, but you can see the breakdown of community and communities in the suburbs, for <v Alex Kotlowitz>example, and the kids don't have that uh-- <v Joel Weisman>Well now, the suburbs are a little different story. <v Joel Weisman>Their income may not be quite as vital. <v Joel Weisman>And why, then, are those children left as latchkey or wards of the library, if <v Joel Weisman>you will? <v Leslie Baldacci>I don't know that they are. I think that this gets into the area of children who are now <v Leslie Baldacci>referred to in some books that have come out lately as the overprivileged <v Leslie Baldacci>and, uh, are under stress because maybe their lives are too structured. <v Leslie Baldacci>Because so much is expected of them, because they have all these advantages, and

<v Leslie Baldacci>maybe because their parents are very high-profile people who are very busy and <v Leslie Baldacci>are not at home a lot of the time. Maybe these are children who are raised by nannies <v Leslie Baldacci>and, uh, don't have a, a family, <v Leslie Baldacci>a tight-knit family-- <v Joel Weisman>But the common thread I get through all this is that there's no parental time, regardless <v Joel Weisman>of class, or less, less time. <v Joel Weisman>By parents for children. <v Karen Thomas>Can I say something about that? <v Joel Weisman>Sure. <v Karen Thomas>Because I think, you know, I come from a family where both my parents worked extremely <v Karen Thomas>long hours as a child. But I had a grandmother and a great grandmother within my <v Karen Thomas>household-- <v Leslie Baldacci>That's a really important point-- <v Karen Thomas>--so we were never, ever at home by ourselves. <v Leslie Baldacci>And right now, there are not, grandmothers do not live in the same town. <v Leslie Baldacci>Grandmothers are out living their own lives now in a lot of cases. <v Joel Weisman>So what's the solution here? <v Leslie Baldacci>They have a lot more options than any grandmothers before them, is worth pointing out. <v Joel Weisman>Well, a lot of them drive and speak English, which wasn't the case for mine. <v Leslie Baldacci>My, well my mother's a grandmother and she's on her third <v Leslie Baldacci>or fourth career now. <v Joel Weisman>So what can be done to change this?

<v Joel Weisman>I mean, uh uh uh, is it a matter of raising consciousness, at least in some of these <v Joel Weisman>cases that parents-- <v Leslie Baldacci>I think that in the corporate sense it's, it's uh, definitely a matter of raising <v Leslie Baldacci>consciousness. And proving that a lot of options can work. <v Mary Galligan>That's one of the needs for the family leave legislation, is because there are, contrary <v Mary Galligan>to what the perception is, that everyone has good insurance <v Mary Galligan>and medical benefits. <v Mary Galligan>They're about 40 percent of, of women who have children who do not <v Mary Galligan>have, uh, a chance to take a 6-week paid <v Mary Galligan>leave of absence from their job as they have a baby. <v Mary Galligan>And, and I think that sets up this big vacuum then, where <v Mary Galligan>government has to step in and say you should give <v Mary Galligan>your workers, men and women, a certain amount of unpaid leave with, you have a <v Mary Galligan>child, or if you adopt a child-- <v Joel Weisman>But that's really just a part of the child's life, I mean-- <v Mary Galligan>Of course. Of course. <v Joel Weisman>and that's only six weeks, once every few years when you have a child. <v Mary Galligan>But that's how we operate it with public policy.

<v Mary Galligan>It seems like when it involves children and families. <v Mary Galligan>We go piecemeal. <v Joel Weisman>I want to go back to the question about raising awareness. I wasn't really thinking in <v Joel Weisman>terms of ways in raising corporate awareness. <v Joel Weisman>I was thinking of raising the parental awareness that's important that kids need parents' <v Joel Weisman>time. <v Leslie Baldacci>There are a lot of people who believe that that there should be parenting classes taught, <v Leslie Baldacci>and you can't, you shouldn't be able to graduate from high school without taking a <v Leslie Baldacci>parenting class. <v Joel Weisman>What about that? Are there, there are such classes are there not? <v Karen Thomas>There's some. I mean, it's not a requirement. <v Leslie Baldacci>It's not a requirement, no. <v Joel Weisman>And, and I think there are also classes on budgeting and things like that, which some <v Joel Weisman>people say that should be a-- <v Karen Thomas>That everyone should get F this year in those. <v Leslie Baldacci>Well, I think though-- <v Joel Weisman>Well, the teachers who teach 'em probably should or the administration should. <v Karen Thomas>The financing one. <v Mary Galligan>One of the best things I think about Chicago school reform is it brought parents into <v Mary Galligan>the school. It was a requirement. They had to serve on the school council. <v Mary Galligan>They had to show up for various activities. <v Mary Galligan>And I think some of the local councils that have been the most successful have found ways <v Mary Galligan>to get-- <v Joel Weisman>To involve the parents-- <v Mary Galligan>--the parents Involved. Whether it's to, uh, actually take classes in parenting or to <v Mary Galligan>maybe learn how to, to read or to improve their own skills

<v Mary Galligan>along with their kids. I mean that's what-- <v Joel Weisman>Well you've led us very, very, uh deftly into the next segment here, which deals with the <v Joel Weisman>Chicago school crisis and Chicago school children. <v Joel Weisman>Uh, uh, I think there is a lot of euphoria a couple of years ago when they passed school <v Joel Weisman>reform and everybody thought that Johnny was really going to read better and somehow the <v Joel Weisman>schools were going to work better. <v Joel Weisman>And here we are, not even two years later, and we're talking about all sorts of cutbacks. <v Karen Thomas>Well, see, first of all, I think everyone tends to forget that this law is just the first <v Karen Thomas>step. It was never meant to be the total solution to what was wrong with the Chicago <v Karen Thomas>public schools. That it dealt with governance issues. <v Karen Thomas>It did not really deal with the classroom issues. <v Karen Thomas>It's supposed to clear the way so you can get to the classroom. <v Joel Weisman>And when are we supposed to get to the classroom? <v Karen Thomas>Well, see, now we've been sort of sidestepped in the middle of all this. <v Karen Thomas>So-- <v Joel Weisman>So we've been sidetracked. <v Karen Thomas>Whatever you want to call it. Yeah, of course. <v Joel Weisman>Over the budget follies. <v Karen Thomas>The, well, the budget and, and we had a setback with the state Supreme Court ruling, <v Karen Thomas>with the, the vote, uh, situation with the council. <v Karen Thomas>So, yeah, I mean, there's been some major blows to what's been put in place.

<v Karen Thomas>What really amazes me about all of this is the level of enthusiasm that still seems to be <v Karen Thomas>out there among the council members. They have really endured. <v Karen Thomas>A lot if you ask me to still be involved at this point. <v Joel Weisman>Well what does it mean, uh, uh, if, to the, to the actual children? <v Joel Weisman>Uh, the fact that there are crumbling schools and that there are, uh, budget <v Joel Weisman>cuts and that, uh, the teachers, are uh, worried about losing their raises <v Joel Weisman>and the engineers and all the other unions involved? <v Karen Thomas>You know, what always bothers me about that is, the kids are always at the bottom of that <v Karen Thomas>particular list. You just named everything up top, and we talked about the kids last. <v Karen Thomas>And that's how school systems have operated. <v Karen Thomas>And that's where the problem is. The emphasis is never on the child. <v Karen Thomas>It's on all the other things that make schools go around. <v Karen Thomas>And that has nothing-- <v Joel Weisman>Well, that's administration and what you call the governance-- <v Karen Thomas>Right. <v Speaker>--process I guess. <v Mary Galligan>And it's not like children don't notice this. <v Karen Thomas>Of course they notice. <v Joel Weisman>Do they notice? <v Karen Thomas>I mean, how would you feel if you were sitting in a classroom and it's graffitied and has <v Karen Thomas>holes in the walls and-- <v Joel Weisman>I'd still be counting the minutes 'til recess. <v Karen Thomas>Yeah, but you would also realize that no one was taking a real interest in your

<v Karen Thomas>education. It was a low priority on somebody's list. <v Leslie Baldacci>It's the same in the Chicago public schools and CHA [Chicago Housig Authority]. When you <v Leslie Baldacci>look around you and everything is devastation, how could you think anything except <v Leslie Baldacci>there is no value to this? <v Karen Thomas>Right. <v Leslie Baldacci>And there is no value to me. <v Joel Weisman>Uh-huh. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And one of the things that struck me working on my book is just the enormous silence on <v Alex Kotlowitz>the part of these institutions that are meant to serve the children. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean, these very institutions, you take the juvenile courts, for example, which is <v Alex Kotlowitz>perhaps one of the worst-case-- <v Leslie Baldacci>The Kremlin. <v Alex Kotlowitz>--examples. Right. But I mean, here, for example, in my book, I follow one of the boys <v Alex Kotlowitz>through juvenile court, and he was arrested with four others for breaking into a car. <v Alex Kotlowitz>And they were represented by one attorney, one public defender, and had all, who had all <v Alex Kotlowitz>but but five minutes to prepare for trial. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Now, under the best of circumstances or under even under the worst of circumstances, they <v Alex Kotlowitz>should have each had their own attorney and uh, and certainly should have had more time <v Alex Kotlowitz>to prepare for trial. Well, as a child, you, you, you see all that that's going on. <v Alex Kotlowitz>You see that that silence, you, you hear it. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean, it's, and it's the same with the schools. <v Alex Kotlowitz>You go into a school building and you have, you don't have a music class.

<v Alex Kotlowitz>You don't have an art class. I mean, you, you miss that as a, as a child. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Um, and I think it make, and, what the awful thing is, it makes these kids terribly <v Alex Kotlowitz>cynical. <v Joel Weisman>Well, how do you, how do you then change the focus, Karen, uh, to, off of <v Joel Weisman>these subjects such as, and, and part of it, I have to say, is the media's, uh, <v Joel Weisman>to blame because we focus not on, on individual courses <v Joel Weisman>or learning. We focus on the budget. Is there crisis? <v Joel Weisman>Is there a strike? What's the average teacher wage? <v Karen Thomas>Right. You do, because those are the political issues-- <v Joel Weisman>We do. <v Karen Thomas>--that. Yeah, uh well, yeah. I mean, I do. <v Karen Thomas>You do do that. That's kind of what drives the news. <v Karen Thomas>And it's unfortunate. I mean, I've tried to do some classroom stuff within my reporting, <v Karen Thomas>but not enough education writers really get freed up to do that, to go into <v Karen Thomas>a classroom, really understand how curriculum works and what's going on. <v Karen Thomas>I mean, we're so much dealing-- <v Joel Weisman>But again, we're we're we're blaming outside, uh, uh, reasons for lack of success within <v Joel Weisman>the classroom. And I'm sure they play a role. <v Joel Weisman>Can we, assuming we have no power to change these things, uh, nonetheless,

<v Joel Weisman>improve the quality of education, improve the quality of teaching if you will? <v Karen Thomas>Yeah, I think you can. And I think what happens in Chicago, particularly with a system <v Karen Thomas>this big is, it happens in a school-by-school basis. <v Karen Thomas>You get one terrific principal in a particular building. <v Karen Thomas>Certain things happen in that particular building. <v Karen Thomas>The teachers are energized. They get freed up to do certain things. <v Karen Thomas>And that's what happens. And so often I hear of a really great project over here and <v Karen Thomas>there's another school over here that has some of the same problems. <v Karen Thomas>Well It doesn't have any idea what the school over here is doing. <v Karen Thomas>And that's one of the problems. It just kind of gets lost in the-- <v Joel Weisman>Okay, well well, couldn't you solve that problem by, say, introducing a certain standard, <v Joel Weisman>or level, or incentive, or merit pay, perhaps? <v Karen Thomas>Merit pay. Uhhh . . . <v Karen Thomas>I don't know. <v Mary Galligan>Well, there is an incentive built in to the, uh-- <v Joel Weisman>Well, how do you how do you get someone who is, is not a particularly good teacher <v Joel Weisman>to be a better teacher? Who has a lot of job security because of her union and <v Joel Weisman>what have you?

<v Karen Thomas>You provide training that goes on through. <v Karen Thomas>I mean, a teacher shouldn't just go to school and then enter the classroom. <v Karen Thomas>And then 30 years later, the teacher has had no update on her training. <v Karen Thomas>I mean, look at what has happened in world history alone. <v Alex Kotlowitz>Provide some dignity to the profession. <v Karen Thomas>Right. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean, that's what, uh-- <v Karen Thomas>That's the other thing. I mean, teachers also feel either probably feel they're next on <v Karen Thomas>the list-- <v Joel Weisman>Sure. <v Karen Thomas>--after for the kids. I mean, it's, you've, we just haven't provided any sense of <v Karen Thomas>priority for them either. <v Karen Thomas>I mean, we're talking about policy issues. <v Joel Weisman>How, how would you do that? How would you provide the dignity? What do you do? <v Alex Kotlowitz>Well, I think, for one, you can pay teachers. We can certainly pay teachers more than we <v Alex Kotlowitz>pay them. We could, as as as Karen suggests, we could offer retraining for teachers. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean, periodic retraining. I don't th-- <v Joel Weisman>Well, I, I think your first uh, um, <v Joel Weisman>suggestion is, is not borne out by the budgets. I mean, we apprently we can't pay them <v Joel Weisman>more-- <v Alex Kotlowitz>Well, I don't think we've put anywhere near enough into the into the schools. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean, you look, I mean, Bush came out yesterday and suggested that we ought to create <v Alex Kotlowitz>all these innovative school programs once, one innovative school program per <v Alex Kotlowitz>congressional district. Well, my God, the existing schools need so much help. <v Alex Kotlowitz>How can we afford--

<v Joel Weisman>Right. <v Alex Kotlowitz>--to go out and create these, these other, uh, parallel institutions? <v Joel Weisman>Are any of you in favor of this voucher system? <v Mary Galligan>Oh, heck, no. <v Joel Weisman>On the premise that, uh-- <v Mary Malligan>No. <v Joel Weisman>--that schools wanting the vouchers or the payments would, <v Joel Weisman>would become excellent? <v Mary Galligan>No. I think, you know, there will be some individuals, students who are going to benefit <v Mary Galligan>just as any individual student whose parents or family has the <v Mary Galligan>goal of really getting a good education for their, their child and makes an effort. <v Mary Galligan>I mean, look at the, uh, the drop in the census here in Chicago of black <v Mary Galligan>families. Now where do they go? <v Mary Galligan>A lot of them went to the suburbs because of schools, or they left the whole <v Mary Galligan>area, went to the Sunbelt for better jobs and better schools. <v Mary Galligan>So, I mean, people are voting with their feet, but with vouchers, uh, <v Mary Galligan>in Milwaukee, they're having uh, kind of a mixed experience because they've had some <v Mary Galligan>of these schools, uh, be created overnight. <v Mary Galligan>You know, some of them have, uh, been falling away overnight, too. <v Mary Galligan>And so you're going to have those kind of problems that, uh, happen because there aren't <v Mary Galligan>enough private schools in the city of Milwaukee to take all those kids.

<v Joel Weisman>We're down to our last two minutes. And I think if people had only listened to what we've <v Joel Weisman>said so far, they would think it's just horrible. <v Joel Weisman>It's all gloom and doom for those kids out there. <v Joel Weisman>Why were they ever born and what do they have to look forward to? <v Joel Weisman>Give me positive things, Leslie, that uh, in this Year of the Child that uh, reasons <v Joel Weisman>for optimism. <v Leslie Baldacci>Reasons for optimism. <v Leslie Baldacci>Oh, boy. Um, I think that uh, there are some really good things, uh, <v Leslie Baldacci>that could happen in the legislature. Um, one of the things that we're gonna be starting <v Leslie Baldacci>to see very soon and probably saw this past year was the cocaine babies starting <v Leslie Baldacci>kindergarten. These are children brought into the world drug-impaired <v Leslie Baldacci>and are going to have probably developmental problems all the way along. <v Leslie Baldacci>Um, there's legislation pending that would encourage women to get treatment during their <v Leslie Baldacci>pregnancy. Instead of go to jail and hide out and give birth to a <v Leslie Baldacci>drug-addicted baby. <v Joel Weisman>Any other, uh, positive things? <v Leslie Baldacci>I'm happy about that and the parental leave, uh, some <v Leslie Baldacci>17 states have them now, even if it's not a national law. <v Joel Weisman>Anybody else got any reasons for optimism? <v Karen Thomas>I think the fact that we're starting to talk about this, that the focus is sort of

<v Karen Thomas>shifting there is very encouraging. I mean, I think there's been a lot of tension in this <v Karen Thomas>year in the last couple of years on this. <v Joel Weisman>Any reason for hope at the CHA? <v Alex Kotlowitz>Yeah, I think there's a lot of hope, uh, reason for hope at the CHA. You look at what <v Alex Kotlowitz>they did in Rockwall Gardens, one public housing complex where they secured all the <v Alex Kotlowitz>buildings and made it safer for the kids-- <v Joel Weisman>Sweeps. <v Alex Kotlowitz>--sweeps and the test scores of the local elementary school. <v Alex Kotlowitz>The kids went up dramatically. No magic. <v Alex Kotlowitz>I mean, the kids felt safer. <v Joel Weisman>What do you see as optimism? <v Mary Galligan>I like to beat up on Congress a lot. But I think there is hope even, uh, in Congress <v Mary Galligan>this year, where both Democrats and Republicans, uh, want to take on the child <v Mary Galligan>welfare system. And this affects the whole realm <v Mary Galligan>of problems from the crack babies to foster families and juvenile court. <v Mary Galligan>Because the whole federal system is, is backwards. <v Joel Weisman>So you, you feel that awareness is somewhat encouraging? <v Mary Galligan>Yeah we're, yeah we're paying, you know, to spend all this money for foster care in the <v Mary Galligan>courts and we're not paying hardly anything on prevention. <v Joel Weisman>Well, you've all paid your dues and done an excellent job. <v Joel Weisman>And for Leslie Baldacci and Mary Galligan, Karen Thomas, and Alex Kotlowitz,

<v Joel Weisman>thanks for joining us. I'm Joel Weissmann. And we'll see you on the next edition of <v Joel Weisman>Chicago Week in Review. You know, one of the, uh, reasons for optimism . <v Joel Weisman>. . [outro music]