American Popular Songs with Alec Wilder & Friends; The Artistry of Mabel Mercer

<v Mabel Mercer>Really? I was born into a theatrical family. <v Mabel Mercer>And when I was a youngster and left school, it was only natural that <v Mabel Mercer>I went straight onto the stage and I was in <v Mabel Mercer>vaudeville for years and years until after the First World War. <v Mabel Mercer>Then I started out um with different shows and we went abroad <v Mabel Mercer>and I traveled around in the foreign cafes <v Mabel Mercer>singing whatever I could sing an-and doing a little bit of dancing and <v Mabel Mercer>doing whatever I could do. But I was making a living and that was the point. <v Announcer>We invite you now to spend an hour with American composer and songwriter Alec Wilder <v Announcer>and friends as they discuss and perform American popular song <v Announcer>with Mr. Wilder at the piano is his colleague and fellow songwriter Loonis McGlohon

<v Announcer>and a very special guest, the first lady of Song, Miss Mabel <v Announcer>Mercer. Our Subject: The Artistry of Mabel Mercer part1. <v Loonis McGlohon>So very famous song called uh While We're Young. <v Loonis McGlohon>Written by Alec Wilder I'm not sure everybody knows who introduced the song but the <v Loonis McGlohon>lady is here today. And Alec, I'll let you introduce her. <v Alec Wilder>Mabel, my love. <v Alec Wilder>Mabel Mercer. Yes. I can't really talk very sensibly about it because I love her so much. <v Alec Wilder>Everything about her, everything she does, everything she did, everything <v Alec Wilder>she will do. And I really don't ask me to do it 'cause I go all to pieces. <v Loonis McGlohon>So it's a very auspicious occasion for Miss Mercer. <v Mabel Mercer>Well I'm- he's making me blush all over the place. <v Loonis McGlohon>Just getting warmed up. We also have Mr. Fred Calland with National Public Radio. <v Loonis McGlohon>It's nice to have you here Fred.

<v Fred Calland>Well, thank you. And I think about this point I'd like to sort of cut through this uh, uh <v Fred Calland>uh-. <v Alec Wilder>No, no, it's not sentiment, it's-it's more than that. <v Fred Calland>Well this uh yes, but it's not the-the um cold, hard facts. <v Fred Calland>If those are definable as what do you <v Fred Calland>um give to a composer when you work on his songs? <v Mabel Mercer>Well, I mean-. <v Fred Calland>He's written it. What's it- what's left for you to do? <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. But if they write something very beautiful musically and beautiful to <v Mabel Mercer>express and vocally with words, <v Mabel Mercer>what more could I ask? You see, that's that's all a singer has to have <v Mabel Mercer>from a composer. Something that is so that she can give back <v Mabel Mercer>a thousand fold in in the beauty that he gets created if possible. <v Alec Wilder>That' called interdependence, kind of. <v Loonis McGlohon>Yes exactly. <v Alec Wilder>Yeah, Wonderful. Well, I'm delighted. <v Loonis McGlohon>Well, speaking of, you said you felt very safe. <v Loonis McGlohon>I think songs are always safe in the hands of Mabel Mercer. <v Alec Wilder>That's right.

<v Loonis McGlohon>And we've sort of made a request that she'd do one that's a favorite of <v Loonis McGlohon>ours. Uh, Mabel, it's I'm All Smiles. <v Mabel Mercer>Oh, yes. <v Loonis McGlohon>Michael Leonard. <v Alec Wilder>That's a love of a song. <v Mabel Mercer>A beautiful song. But unfortunately, nothing much happened at the show. <v Mabel Mercer>It was written for. Never did uh never did appear. <v Mabel Mercer>Oh, if it appeared, it was so brief. <v Alec Wilder>Very short, I know the yearling. <v Mabel Mercer>The Yearling, yes. And th-th-th-th-the music was glorious. <v Mabel Mercer>Singing: I'm All Smiles <v Loonis McGlohon>Mabel I love to hear you do jazz waltz like that.

<v Alec Wilder>Me too. <v Mabel Mercer>I like to do it. It's so it's so gay and joyous the <v Mabel Mercer>th-th-tha- I mean. Jazz Waltz, I think is so. <v Alec Wilder>I love it as a form. I love it as a form. <v Mabel Mercer>So do I. Because there waltz, of course, I think is the favorite of all <v Mabel Mercer>tempos existing anywhere. <v Alec Wilder>I guess it is. <v Mabel Mercer>And I think in any country. <v Alec Wilder>It's a universal. Is it really this is quite true. <v Mabel Mercer>But this jazz waltz which is so not so old as- <v Alec Wilder>No <v Mabel Mercer>It's- And I find it very exciting and very lovely. <v Mabel Mercer>um and i don't-. <v Loonis McGlohon>It feels very good in your hands. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. I like to hear it. <v Mabel Mercer>I like I love to hear the piano or jazz waltz with an <v Mabel Mercer>electronic trail such as you like. <v Mabel Mercer>It sounds, sounds so gay. <v Mabel Mercer>And. <v Alec Wilder>It's exhilarating. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Fred Calland>And when did you first start singing as a soloist. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, that's hard to say. Well, as a complete soloist- <v Fred Calland>As a complete soloist is what I mean.

<v Mabel Mercer>With nothing else. When I didn't have to get up and do a song uh a verse and chorus. <v Fred Calland>Right. <v Mabel Mercer>I did. Be sure that finished with a dance. <v Fred Calland>Yes, I know. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, the first time I I started to do that uh- actually <v Mabel Mercer>I think it was eh was in Paris. <v Fred Calland>Mhm About when? <v Mabel Mercer>Oh well it was in the 1920s. In the 20s. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. Then I did an act dancing act with a girl. <v Mabel Mercer>And then when that broke up, I had to continue and I couldn't dance <v Mabel Mercer>alone. So I just started singing songs. <v Mabel Mercer>Then I found that this was acceptable. <v Fred Calland>Mm mhmm. <v Mabel Mercer>And it was a great relief to me, I can assure you, because I was never terribly great <v Mabel Mercer>dancer. I'm a good to a double shuffle and keep keep <v Mabel Mercer>tempo. But um I sang in um um a mostly <v Mabel Mercer>uh sentiment's song. <v Fred Calland>Mhmm. <v Mabel Mercer>Uh Cause ragtime at that time. <v Mabel Mercer>Charles, I was not a ragtime singer, but I can keep a beat. <v Mabel Mercer>But my special uh thing was singing the- all love ballads, <v Mabel Mercer>especially the balance that were cut out of shows.

<v Fred Calland>That's what I was wondering about. How did you get those? <v Mabel Mercer>Well, you see. Oh, well, um when the gentlemen of the orchestra received all that <v Mabel Mercer>music from America, they only played the songs that had been <v Mabel Mercer>published and the ones that were, you know, the song that the people hum <v Mabel Mercer>when they leave the theater. <v Fred Calland>Right. Right. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, on a lot of the lovely songs would just put on one side and never bothered about. <v Alec Wilder>Or even dropped from the show. <v Mabel Mercer>Oh but yes. That's why they weren't published and they weren't made a big thing of <v Mabel Mercer>because they wanted the one they say, oh you you've got to be able to go out of the <v Mabel Mercer>theater humming the tune all the way. <v Alec Wilder>Oh I know. <v Mabel Mercer>And if you didn't, well, those songs were sort of pushed aside. <v Alec Wilder>That's right. <v Mabel Mercer>And in this way, I got quite a great collection of very lovely songs, <v Mabel Mercer>which was to my advantage because nobody else was doing it. <v Alec Wilder>That's right. <v Mabel Mercer>Therefore, I suddenly began to get a slow reputation of singing songs that nobody <v Mabel Mercer>else sang. <v Alec Wilder>That's Right, that's right. And also, you have revived <v Alec Wilder>so many songs that otherwise would never have been revived. <v Alec Wilder>I have a list of them somewhere.

<v Alec Wilder>Other songs which have since become standards only because you insisted <v Alec Wilder>upon singing them. I remember one case, very definitely. <v Alec Wilder>Wait Till You See Her. Nobody cared about that song. <v Alec Wilder>Cause it was dropped by-. <v Mabel Mercer>It was taken from the show. Yes. <v Alec Wilder>But you got the whole score and you continue to sing it. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>And all the singers who came in. I guess it was Tony's picked up on it. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. Because by this time I was in America. <v Alec Wilder>That's right. <v Mabel Mercer>And uh then I was singing all these songs. <v Mabel Mercer>And happily, I used to get songs before they got to New York. <v Alec Wilder>Oh I see. <v Mabel Mercer> I got- before they were- well before they were cut out of the show or if they were cut <v Mabel Mercer>out of the show a lot. <v Mabel Mercer>Some of the music publishers, as you know, used to come in all the time. <v Mabel Mercer>And they would give me the songs to sing. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, I'd like to do a song written by an American composer and used in an English <v Mabel Mercer>show, which was very, very successful. <v Alec Wilder>Rodgers and Hart? <v Mabel Mercer>Uh, Rodgers and Hart Dancing On The Ceiling. <v Alec Wilder>Oh, marvelous, marvelous. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Dancing on the Ceiling] <v Loonis McGlohon>Thank you, Mabel, it was lovely.

<v Alec Wilder>Yeah, certainly was, every line of it. <v Loonis McGlohon>We've been uh you and I've been running over a song that Alec Waller wrote. <v Alec Wilder>And you-. <v Loonis McGlohon>And You Called Me A Child. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>There's uh a kind of a strange story about it. <v Alec Wilder>I uh was doing a show up in Williamstown, Mass. <v Alec Wilder>I think you came up to it Mabel, um The Importance of Being Earnest. <v Mabel Mercer>Oh it was glorious, yes I remember it well. <v Alec Wilder>We did a musical version and in the course of rewriting. <v Alec Wilder>There was a little lag in there. And I just have to run off a tune one day. <v Alec Wilder>And Arnold Sundgaard, who is connected with the show, liked it. <v Alec Wilder>And I put on tape, forgot about it. <v Alec Wilder>He thought maybe get a lyric to it. Never did. <v Alec Wilder>And I forgot. I-I forget many songs I write, and about three years later I was going <v Alec Wilder>through a little pocket notebook that I used to jot things down. <v Alec Wilder>And I came across to say I looked I was about to throw it away. <v Alec Wilder>And I thought: That's not bad. Not bad. But where'd it come from? <v Alec Wilder>And I suddenly remembered that was the same song. <v Alec Wilder>I thought: It's too good to throw away. And I wrote it down and sent it to Loonis. <v Alec Wilder>And back came a lyric that simply broke my heart and I sang it in the publisher's office. <v Alec Wilder>And the entire office force cried. <v Loonis McGlohon>Trying not to cry.

<v Mabel Mercer>From my singing. I know, I know-. <v Loonis McGlohon>I tell you ?unintelligible? <v Loonis McGlohon>If Mabel sings it. Will you sing it if he promises not to cry? <v Mabel Mercer>Yes I'll sing it for you. <v Alec Wilder>Oh that would be delicious. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: And you Called me a Child] <v Loonis McGlohon>Oh, he didn't cry, but I did.

<v Alec Wilder>Oh wouldn't you know. <v Mabel Mercer>No but I think you'll turn out to be a very lovely poet, you know. <v Alec Wilder>Well, he is a lovely poet. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>And I I could never fault him on a lyric he ever sent me. <v Alec Wilder>Uh I'd be content to-. <v Mabel Mercer> It's wonderful. <v Alec Wilder>Write with him forever. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, it's is so wonderful to get lyric with a song that has <v Mabel Mercer>a sensible and has meaning and instead of just. <v Alec Wilder>And goes where the notes go. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>All the stresses fall right. <v Mabel Mercer>A lot of people don't realize th-that it has to fit like that. <v Mabel Mercer>The lyric has to fit the music like that. <v Mabel Mercer>Otherwise, it's like a left-handed glove on a right hand. <v Mabel Mercer>And ?unintelligible? <v Alec Wilder>That's right. Absolutely right. <v Fred Calland>What do you do when you get a song where they don't fit properly? <v Fred Calland>Can you tamper with it? <v Mabel Mercer>I've tried. I have several. <v Loonis McGlohon>You throw it away. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. I have tried I have several songs <v Mabel Mercer>and I've tried and tried and tried. <v Mabel Mercer>And that was my first realization that-that it is possible <v Mabel Mercer>for a lyric never to fit the music written form. <v Mabel Mercer>And I never knew why until I got this song written by a friend of mine who uh

<v Mabel Mercer>particularly wanted to do it. <v Mabel Mercer>It was was uh um Sam for instance. <v Fred Calland>Oh, really? <v Mabel Mercer>He had written uh uh quite a lovely tune and somebody had given him the lyric, <v Mabel Mercer>but he didn't seem to uh um that- they- they- didn't-. <v Mabel Mercer>Neither one was related to the other, and I never did sing it. <v Mabel Mercer>I just couldn't do it. And that's why. <v Alec Wilder>Well don't you have a problem with- now this is not a nice thing to say, but I have to <v Alec Wilder>say, this has been bothering me for years. Don't you have a little trouble saying <v Alec Wilder>tenderLY when you know that the word is tenderly the stress is on tender? <v Mabel Mercer>Yes, oh of course, because uh-. <v Alec Wilder>You have to compensate. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. Well, a-and-and to do that and then um I <v Mabel Mercer>sort of do what she calls rubato singing <v Mabel Mercer>and sing the phrase let the music play. <v Mabel Mercer>And then you can pronounce a word. <v Alec Wilder>Right. <v Mabel Mercer>Without having to dot for dot. <v Alec Wilder>Yeah. Right. <v Mabel Mercer>You can't do it dot for dot. <v Loonis McGlohon>You know you spoke of rubato uh which you do so beautifully. <v Loonis McGlohon>Nobody does quite like you because you just extend the phrase uh to make it

<v Loonis McGlohon>make sense. And and let the bar line go on it's own way. <v Mabel Mercer>And retain the music line. <v Loonis McGlohon>But in the case of a Cy Coleman swinging kind of thing, <v Loonis McGlohon>uh you uh have to stay within the bar lines, don't you? <v Mabel Mercer>Well, I guess because it means that you have a rhythm to follow. <v Mabel Mercer>And the words may be humorous and they can't cut humorous words <v Mabel Mercer>in half really ?unintelligible?. <v Alec Wilder>It was Alec who told me about a song he'd heard you do many times called Sweet Talk. <v Alec Wilder>And it sure-. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes! <v Loonis McGlohon>Was a joy to learn. <v Alec Wilder>Oh my Lord do I do I love that song. <v Mabel Mercer>?Unintelligible? And it's sort humorous. <v Alec Wilder>And i-de-th-the words seem seem not to fit at points, but it's done deliberately. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>And that makes it funnier. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>Oh I think it's a marvel. Could you sing it? Would you sing it? <v Mabel Mercer>Of course, certainly. The first person really I think to sing this song is Peggy Lee. <v Alec Wilder>Really? <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. And she sang it. And it was marvelous because it's a great orchestra behind-. <v Alec Wilder>Sure. <v Mabel Mercer>Effect. And I said immediately to sign. Got to have it, please. <v Mabel Mercer>So he said certainly.

<v Loonis McGlohon>Well, we'll just have a trio with Terry Glassell turn Jim like it here. <v Loonis McGlohon>But we'll do the best we can Mabel if you'll try. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes, I certainly will. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Sweet Talk] <v Loonis McGlohon>That was a lot of fun for me.

<v Alec Wilder>Me too. <v Fred Calland>Ah I-I I suppose you've all been quite aware that there have been no two songs that <v Fred Calland>someone with a scholarly mind like myself could point out as being typical of American <v Fred Calland>popular songs they're all entirely different. <v Alec Wilder>But you know, these are all American songs. <v Mabel Mercer>Oh very American Yes. <v Alec Wilder>Very American. In their in their rhetoric and in their and their use of harmony and <v Alec Wilder>rhythms. I certainly couldn't say they could come from any other country. <v Loonis McGlohon>Like this uh one that we've planned to do. <v Loonis McGlohon>I think it was. Did you write uh this next tune? <v Loonis McGlohon>uh Is it Always Like This for Mabel or Peggy or? <v Alec Wilder>No, I wrote it for because she was very sad and and she'd had a fellow <v Alec Wilder>that left her. And I wrote it just gave it to her. <v Alec Wilder>And it was such a sacred song to her that she uh felt that the <v Alec Wilder>most uh religious thing she could do with it was not sing it. <v All>Laughs. <v Mabel Mercer>Well that was my advantage, my gain. <v Alec Wilder>And then it became Mabel's song. And I thank heaven it did. <v Alec Wilder>I'm kind of glad.

<v Mabel Mercer>You know, that was the very first song of Alec's that I learned <v Mabel Mercer>when I came to this country. <v Alec Wilder>Oh really? <v Mabel Mercer>Because we met-. <v Alec Wilder>I didn't know that. <v Mabel Mercer>You know, and you played it for me and sang it. <v Mabel Mercer>And I thought, Oh, please, I must have this song till you meet. <v Loonis McGlohon>You mean after you even heard him sing it you wanted it. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes, he ?unintelligible? Very well. <v Fred Calland>Great. <v Alec Wilder>Thank you. Mabel thank you. <v Mabel Mercer>He may not admit it but he does. And I think it's a very beautiful love song. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Always Like This] <v Fred Calland>Well, that was exquisite singing and an exquisite song.

<v Fred Calland>Um, but again, it doesn't relate to anything we've had <v Fred Calland>before. They're all individual jewels. They're all crafted individually. <v Fred Calland>What does it? The poetry? What comes first? <v Alec Wilder>I don't know-. <v Fred Calland>You don't know. <v Alec Wilder>I don't. <v Fred Calland>I was afraid you wouldn't know. <v Alec Wilder>I don't know. Sometimes a lyric is knocked off of a lyric and you <v Alec Wilder>don't know why you did it. Or you or you suddenly write a tune and you don't know why. <v Alec Wilder>I-I never know why I do it. I ju- something happens to me and I write a tune or I write a <v Alec Wilder>lyric. You Loonis do this all the time and at top speed and they're always glorious. <v Alec Wilder>Why do you do it? Because you. <v Alec Wilder>Because it feeds you. Because it feeds a need. <v Loonis McGlohon>Yeah, the need to put a little bit of margarine on the table and. <v Alec Wilder>Margerine?! Never anything but the best butter for you. <v Mabel Mercer>You know, I think it's the creative instinct that's in- in <v Mabel Mercer>most all of us. And it has to have expression some way. <v Mabel Mercer>And according to the mood you're in, that was- that's the the way it'll come out. <v Mabel Mercer>You know, either gay or pensive. <v Mabel Mercer>And that-

<v Alec Wilder>Yeah I suppose it has to do with your life. <v Fred Calland>Mabel uh um most uh singers of say German lieder or the classical recital say that <v Fred Calland>it's the poem that they invariably say the poem is what first attracts them and then they <v Fred Calland>work on that first. Could you say that for a song like uh Send In the Clowns? <v Fred Calland>Because I just Send In The Clowns. <v Fred Calland>It doesn't stand like much. <v Fred Calland>It doesn't look like much on paper. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, no, because uh I think the title is misleading for a lot of people, especially if <v Mabel Mercer>they haven't seen the show Send In The Clowns. <v Mabel Mercer>They immediately think perhaps of the circus. <v Mabel Mercer>I know I've had somebody even say that to me until they heard the song. <v Mabel Mercer>And then several people have said, I didn't know what the song was about <v Mabel Mercer>until I heard you sing it. <v Alec Wilder>Mm hmm. <v Mabel Mercer>You see, because when you sing a song like that and you take it out of context, it's not <v Mabel Mercer>in the show which has the story around it to explain the whole thing. <v Mabel Mercer>So perhaps if I get a little dramatic with it, it's because I have to <v Mabel Mercer>sing it and let the people know that this person who is

<v Mabel Mercer>singing, Let's Send In The Clowns. Actually, she's she's she's a <v Mabel Mercer>meaning herself. You know, she's suddenly disillusioned <v Mabel Mercer>about something that she had very, very dearly wanted. <v Mabel Mercer>And so she finally-. <v Alec Wilder>What you do is actually, when I've heard you do it, that you do <v Alec Wilder>something that fascinates me because there are some songs that do not work outside <v Alec Wilder>of the production. And to me, this is essentially a production song. <v Alec Wilder>That is it. It's within the framework of the musical <v Alec Wilder>for which it was written up. Some songs can have an independent life and aren't hurt by <v Alec Wilder>the loss of the production. But you, because of the nature of this song, <v Alec Wilder>reproduce the drama of the production. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>That's ?unintelligible?. <v Loonis McGlohon>You know uh, I've been fortunate enough to see a little night music uh from which this <v Loonis McGlohon>song comes uh the score by Stephen Sondheim and enjoyed it tremendously,

<v Loonis McGlohon>but never really heard the song before I heard you do it. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, I think that's that's the reason um there's a lot of people hear <v Mabel Mercer>Send In The Clowns and then they don't realize it. <v Mabel Mercer>And sometimes even when they see the show, they don't quite know <v Mabel Mercer>that this lady is singing about herself and that she's been <v Mabel Mercer>a-a-a sort of a butterfly type of woman. <v Mabel Mercer>And suddenly she's struck and and she can't <v Mabel Mercer>get what she wants. Well, the person, the man, that she-. <v Mabel Mercer>And then she suddenly realized that that's here, here I'm <v Mabel Mercer>the clown. I'm the one that uh- and a lot of people don't get that in the theater. <v Alec Wilder>Well, and another thing, Mabel, is that they're Harvey Phillips. <v Alec Wilder>You've met him, that remarkable tubist who um worked in the Ringling Brothers <v Alec Wilder>circus. I've written a lot of music for him and he told me maybe a lot of people know <v Alec Wilder>this that whenever a high wire act failed and

<v Alec Wilder>they slipped, the immediate call from the band was <v Alec Wilder>a certain tool, which was to send in the clowns. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>In other words, disaster has-. <v Mabel Mercer>Disaster, of course. <v Alec Wilder>Something to do with this title. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>I really believe that. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, it's logical, isn't it? <v Alec Wilder>Certainly it is. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. Because she suddenly realizes, oh, my goodness, I failed completely. <v Mabel Mercer>Send the clowns in help me out. <v Alec Wilder>Right. That's right. <v Mabel Mercer>Carry me out with the- yes. Of course <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Send In The Clowns] <v Loonis McGlohon>My favorite uh Rodgers and Hart uh song, Miss Mercer, happens to be Wait till

<v Loonis McGlohon>You See Her, and uh it sure is a joy to hear you do it. <v Loonis McGlohon>An-and which brings up a point Alec has said about you so many times that whatever the <v Loonis McGlohon>lyric is you're saying, you don't have to say wait till you see him because in yo- in <v Loonis McGlohon>your your mind. This is a little girl or somebody else. <v Loonis McGlohon>You don't worry about-. <v Alec Wilder>It's the song. <v Loonis McGlohon>The hims and hers, it's the song. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes it's the song. Because if you. If you sing Wait Til You See Her, <v Mabel Mercer>people will think. <v Mabel Mercer>If-if they get the right thing, well wait til you see her, she could be a little girl. <v Mabel Mercer>She could be something that you treasured. <v Mabel Mercer>And it's a thing of joy. <v Mabel Mercer>Well just wa-wait to see whether it's a man, woman or child it's-. <v Alec Wilder>But you've always had remember-. <v Mabel Mercer>And, yes. <v Alec Wilder>Did you ever cross over to scene. I asked you if you wanted me to change eh uh um. <v Alec Wilder>Do you still we-wear the did you wear the frock you wore? <v Alec Wilder>I did what I said. Do you want me to change it to the suit? <v Alec Wilder>And you said, no. It's the song. <v Mabel Mercer>It's of course, it's not a personal thing. <v Mabel Mercer>You make it personal to the listener, but it's a song that you're singing.

<v Mabel Mercer>But, you know, you don't have to identify whether it's um. <v Alec Wilder>That's right. And you know that this custom, according to James Marr, who is very good <v Alec Wilder>about these matters. <v Alec Wilder>According to him, this custom of the males singing only male songs <v Alec Wilder>to the females only singing female songs only started in the early 30s. <v Alec Wilder>That up to that time, it didn't make any difference. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. <v Alec Wilder>As, for example, Judy Garland singing My Blue Heaven because there is a-. <v Loonis McGlohon>Molly and Me. <v Alec Wilder>Molly and Me, which is um a-a man's lyric. <v Alec Wilder>But it didn't matter in those days. Nobody cared. <v Alec Wilder>Later, suddenly, who can sing Trouble is a Man. <v Alec Wilder>But you know Sarah Vaughan. Not the one that you sang. <v Alec Wilder>I had two songs for the song. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing] Trouble is a man. ?unintelligible? <v Alec Wilder>But it didn't. It suddenly mattered. <v Alec Wilder>I've never been able to find out why. <v Alec Wilder>Particularly since the unisex is ended. <v Alec Wilder>Since I-I <v Loonis McGlohon>Well, in this case it's gonna be Wait Till <v Loonis McGlohon>You See Her. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Wait Til You See Her]

<v Alec Wilder>Perfect, Mabel, absolute perfect. And that's you know, th-that's one of the songs that

<v Alec Wilder>you saved because if it hadn't been for you continuing to sing that song, all <v Alec Wilder>the people who were later recorded would never have done it. <v Alec Wilder>Saved a song. A beautiful beautiful song. <v Loonis McGlohon>Hm. Yeah, thank you, Mabel. <v Alec Wilder>Yeah I-I can't I can't talk. <v Alec Wilder>I can't talk about Mabel Mercer. I really can't. <v Alec Wilder>I-I'll talk about you. You wrote a beautiful song for your son, didn't you? <v Loonis McGlohon>Yes. It was uh a lot less expensive than buying him a shirt that probably wouldn't have <v Loonis McGlohon>suited him or fit. <v Mabel Mercer>Yes, so I think this song fits everybody that has a son or a daughter growing <v Mabel Mercer>up. It's the soundest advice, <v Mabel Mercer>tender advice that can make him. <v Loonis McGlohon>It's called Grow Tall, My Son. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Grow Tall My Son] <v Fred Calland>Loonis that's absolutely exquisite song.

<v Fred Calland>um. <v Fred Calland>You seem to have a sensitivity to uh youth childhood. <v Loonis McGlohon>Well, I think I try to raise three children. <v Fred Calland>That would account for it. <v Loonis McGlohon>I think that's what it is. <v Alec Wilder>No, it isn't. No, You. You've done it so many times, so many songs. <v Loonis McGlohon>Mabel now it's called your choice of tunes. <v Loonis McGlohon>Do do you have something by Jerry Bock that you like? <v Mabel Mercer>Yes. I've got this song from uh She Loves Me and it's called <v Mabel Mercer>Days Gone By. But I don't accept that completely because I think <v Mabel Mercer>I'm going to go on and on and on. <v Mabel Mercer>But eh the song is uh what it says is beautiful. <v Mabel Mercer>I think it lovely was for someone. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, for senior citizens, maybe thinking of days gone by. <v Loonis McGlohon>But it's got everybody. <v Alec Wilder>Everybody. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Days Gone By]

<v Alec Wilder>Mabel, Jerry Bock is very lucky because you make that a better song than it is.

<v Alec Wilder>It's really incredible. I looked at it. <v Alec Wilder>I've heard it. I didn't believe that it could sound as as distinguished <v Alec Wilder>as you make it sound. I really mean that I'm not putting Mr. Bock down. <v Alec Wilder>I'm simply saying that you make that a better song, that it is literally. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, you know, I always get a picture in my mind of of a Viennese <v Mabel Mercer>waltz. A-an-and like The Merry Widow type people <v Mabel Mercer>whirling and whirling around because that was th-the the dance <v Mabel Mercer>and the days go by like that. <v Alec Wilder>That's right. <v Mabel Mercer>Whirl and, whirl and whirl around. <v Alec Wilder>Well, it's it's it's it's remarkable what you do. <v Alec Wilder>And just from looking at sheet music and hearing a casual singer <v Alec Wilder>now, I'm very impressed. <v Fred Calland>Well, speaking of remarkable accomplishments, here's here's one that involves you, Alec. <v Fred Calland>And you Maybel and uh I'm going to ask that you sing <v Fred Calland>uh what I consider and I wouldn't say this, I simply because Alec's here. <v Fred Calland>One of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard called Echoes Of My Life, which

<v Fred Calland>um I maintain, can't prove it, but I'd stake my life on it <v Fred Calland>if that were written to a German text and orchestrated and slipped into <v Fred Calland>the five MASN duck songs of Wagner, uh people would be <v Fred Calland>a long time before they realized the difference. <v Loonis McGlohon>Yeah good. <v Fred Calland>The harmonies are simply beyond anything we've heard so far. <v Alec Wilder>It's a pretty wild song. <v Fred Calland>Yeah. <v Loonis McGlohon>So yeah, the harmonies were very difficult. <v Alec Wilder>Yes. Loonis, I'm terribly sorry. <v Alec Wilder>I apologize publicly for the harmonies. <v Loonis McGlohon>No, they're they're lovely. <v Alec Wilder>But now I wrote it for a dear, dear friend who was very ill. <v Alec Wilder>He never wrote a lyric before in his life. I got it in the mail. <v Alec Wilder>I knew it would cheer him up if I wrote a tune. <v Alec Wilder>I immediately went, wrote it, and shipped it out and made a piano bar, shipped it out to <v Alec Wilder>him. He, when he received it, woke up the music teacher <v Alec Wilder>of the school on the island where he lived. <v Alec Wilder>It was Easter vacation, made her get a key to the school, opened the school and <v Alec Wilder>play it for him. And and that made me very happy in the fact that you are

<v Alec Wilder>our you know how we love you. <v Alec Wilder>Rogers Bracket uh it will, it will absolutely um <v Alec Wilder>renew him. So sad as the song is. <v Mabel Mercer>Yeah. <v Loonis McGlohon>Well, so very distinguished song, though. <v Loonis McGlohon>I agree with Fred. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Echoes Of My Life] <v Fred Calland>Echoes Of My Life by Alec Wilder and Rogers Brackett,

<v Fred Calland>one of the most penetrating songs that I said that uh that I've ever heard, you know, <v Fred Calland>you're really to be congratulated on it. <v Alec Wilder>Well I'm very grateful to him. <v Fred Calland>That song, it just penetrates it. <v Fred Calland>uh-I- You do you notice that when you sing it? <v Mabel Mercer>Oh, yes indeed. I think uh it's a I think it's a lovely song. <v Mabel Mercer>that's so- well I, you know, it's uh difficult to say. <v Mabel Mercer>Everybody has some echoes in their life. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, this next song I'm going to sing. <v Mabel Mercer>Why Did I Choose You? Reminds me of uh a couple that came <v Mabel Mercer>to see me the last time I sang it in a concert. <v Mabel Mercer>They think they were completely convinced that I had directed <v Mabel Mercer>and sang the song, especially to them. <v Mabel Mercer>It was their wed- 60th wedding anniversary. <v Mabel Mercer>And why did I choose you? <v Mabel Mercer>What it says, and I still choose you, which I was very, very touched by that. <v Alec Wilder>Oh that's lovely, lovely

<v Loonis McGlohon>It's a beautiful song. <v Mabel Mercer>I really was touched. And I thought if it reaches people like that, I've achieved <v Mabel Mercer>something. <v Loonis McGlohon>You know, that's another song by Michael Leonard from that um The Yearling. <v Mabel Mercer>From The Yearling, yes. <v Mabel Mercer>Wonderful. <v Alec Wilder>It's a lovely song. <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: Why Did I Choose You?] <v Loonis McGlohon>I enjoyed that very much Mabel.

<v Alec Wilder>Me, too. Yes. <v Alec Wilder>Lovely. <v Alec Wilder>Mabel you know, you sing a lot of Cy Coleman signs. <v Alec Wilder>I'm very impressed by his rhythm size and there's one that you do that just knocks me <v Alec Wilder>out. And that's When In Rome do you- could you do it? <v Mabel Mercer>Oh of course I'd be happy to. <v Alec Wilder>Eh I-I-It works. It works every step of the way. <v Alec Wilder>Including Caroline Lee's lyric and I'm not very fond of Caroline Lee as a person. <v Alec Wilder>I have- for many reasons, but I have to acknowledge that that's absolutely remarkable <v Alec Wilder>lyric. <v Mabel Mercer>It certainly is. So this is very clever. <v Mabel Mercer>Very um a good turn of phrase, which-. <v Alec Wilder>No cliches, no. And that song swings <v Mabel Mercer>[Singing: When In Rome] <v Loonis McGlohon>How do you say goodbye to friends when you're in Rome?

<v Loonis McGlohon>Mabel, which is what we had to do about uh this time is say <v Loonis McGlohon>goodbye to you Mabel Mercer and Fred Calland and <v Loonis McGlohon>Alec Wild. <v Alec Wilder>Mabel how long am I gonna go on thanking you for what you do for me? <v Alec Wilder>Oh, it's really divine. <v Mabel Mercer>Well, as long as you write these things for me to do. <v Alec Wilder>I'll listen to even other people's songs. <v Alec Wilder>I don't care what to do. <v Fred Calland>And speaking for the audience, I say thanks to all of you. <v Mabel Mercer>He's been a great pleasure for me, I'm sure. <v Announcer>Your guide for these weekly sessions of American popular song is the distinguished <v Announcer>composer and songwriter Alec Wilder. <v Announcer>Joining him today were Miss Mabel Mercer and songwriter Loonis McGlohon, an <v Announcer>American popular songs, a production of the South Carolina Educational Radio Network and

<v Announcer>has made possible by a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, directed <v Announcer>by Dick Fipps, executive producer William D. <v Announcer>Hay. <v Announcer>Additional funds for distribution of this program provided by the Corporation for Public <v Announcer>Broadcasting. This is NPR National Public Radio.