PBS NewsHour; April 13, 2012 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

Captioning sponsored by MacNEIL/LEHRER PRODUCTIONS

>> Brown: THE U.S. AND OTHER WORLD POWERS EXPRESSED WORRIES OVER WHAT COMES NEXT, AFTER NORTH KOREA'S LONG-RANGE ROCKET DISINTEGRATED JUST A MINUTE AFTER LAUNCH. GOOD EVENING. I'M JEFFREY BROWN.

>> Warner: AND I'M MARGARET WARNER. ON THE NEWSHOUR TONIGHT, WE HAVE AN ON-THE-GROUND REPORT FROM PYONGYANG, AND ASSESS THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE SECRETIVE NATION AND THE WORLD.

>> Brown: THEN, AS PRESIDENT OBAMA HEADS TO THE SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS, RAY SUAREZ EXAMINES NEW PRESSURES ON WASHINGTON TO RETOOL ITS DRUG POLICY.

>> Warner: GWEN IFILL REPORTS ON A VETERAN REPUBLICAN SENATOR BEING TARGETED FOR DEFEAT BY HIS OWN PARTY. THE INDIANA SENATE RACE WILL BE ABOUT THE STRENGTH OF TEA PARTY MOVEMENT BUT MOSTLY IT WILL BE ABOUT RICHARD LUGAR WHO AT 80 YEARS OLD HAS BEEN IN WASHINGTON FOR MORE THAN THREE DECADES.

>> Brown: MARK SHIELDS AND DAVID BROOKS ANALYZE THE WEEK'S NEWS.

>> Warner: AND WE CLOSE WITH A LOOK AT THE NEVER-ENDING FASCINATION WITH THE "TITANIC," 100 YEARS AFTER IT SANK.

>> Brown: THAT'S ALL AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S NEWSHOUR. MAJOR FUNDING FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY:

>> BNSF RAILWAY.

>> CITI. SUPPORTING PROGRESS FOR 200 YEARS.

>> AT&T.

>> AND BY THE ALFRED P. SLOAN FOUNDATION. SUPPORTING SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, AND IMPROVED ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE AND FINANCIAL LITERACY IN THE 21st CENTURY. AND WITH THE ONGOING SUPPORT OF THESE INSTITUTIONS AND FOUNDATIONS. AND... THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING. AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU. PRESIDENT OBAMA JOINED WORLD LEADERS TODAY DENOUNCING NORTH KOREA ROCKET LAUNCH. WITH AN INTERVIEW HE SAID THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WOULD TAKE FURTHER STEPS TO ISOLATE THE COUNTRY OF THE FAILED LAUNCH THIS MORNING. THE PRESIDENT ADDED THAT THE NORTH KOREAN'SS QUOTE, DON'T SEEM TO BE REAL GOOD AT FIRING MISS IMS. WE BEGIN WITH THIS REPORT FROM ANGUS WALKER OF INDEPENDENT TELEVISION NEWS.

>> Reporter: THE ONLY ROCKETS BEING LAUNCHED THAT PEOPLE IN NORTH KOREA HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SEE TODAY. AS TWO GIANT STATUES OF THE FIRST TWO PRESIDENTS WERE UNVEILED. FATHER, SON AND THE NEW YOUNG SUPREME LEADER KIM JUNG-UN WAS THERE TO WATCH, THE THIRD IN LINE IN THE KIM DYNASTY HAD HOPED TO BE THE FIRST TO SUCCESSFULLY OVERSEE A SATELLITE LAUNCH. BUT THAT ROCKET BROKE UP IN MIDAIR JUST AFTER LIFTOFF.

>> THIS IS MEANT TO BE A VICTORY PARADE TO CELEBRATE THE LAUNCH OF THE SATELLITE. INSTEAD MOST PEOPLE HERE HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT THE FAILURE OF THE ROCKET. THERE IS A SHORT LINE ON THE NEWS. THAT THE SATELLITE FAILED TO REACH ORBIT. AS THE PARADE ENDED, I ASKED PEOPLE WHAT THEY THOUGHT ABOUT THE ROCKET'S FAILURE. AT FIRST THESE WOMEN SAID THEY DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT, BEHIND THE CAMERA OUR GOVERNMENT MINDER PROMPTS THEM. WE'RE NOT DISAPPOINTED, THEY THEN SAY.

>> WE NEVER DISAPPOINTED.

>> Reporter: THE BRIEF ANNOUNCEMENT ON STATE TV SAID SCIENTISTS WERE LOOKING INTO WHY THE SATELLITE HADN'T MADE IT INTO ORBIT. BUT BLANK SCREENS IN THE PRESS CENTER WHERE WE HAD BEEN PROMISED WE COULD WATCH THE ROCKET TAKING OFF. FOR FIVE HOURS AFTER THE LAUNCH HAD BEEN REPORTED BY SOUTH KOREAN MEDIA, OFFICIALS IN NORTH KOREA AWKWARDLY REFUSED TO COMMENT. A CONTRAST TO JUST DAYS AGO WHEN THERE HAD BEEN OPEN ACCESS TO SEE FINAL PREPARATIONS. JAMES OBERG USED TO WORK FOR NASA.

>> LOOKING AT HOW THEY HANDLE FAILURE IN THE PAST T HAS BEEN TO DENY IT THIS TIME AT LEAST THEY HAVE ADMITTED IT. BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THEY HAVE TO FIND SOMEONE TO BLAME, EITHER FOREIGN ENEMIES, INTERNAL ENEMIES, MOTHER NATURE. THERE'S ALWAYS A CASE OF FINDING SOMEONE ELSE TO BLAME.

>> Reporter: AS DARKNESS FELL IN THE NORTH KOREAN CAPITOL, PEOPLE QUEUED FOR FREE BOWLS OF WATER. TONIGHT THERE'S NOT MUCH FOR THE LEADERSHIP TO DRINK TO.

>> THE U.N.

>> Warner: THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL CHARGED THE NORTH KOREAN LAUNCH VIOLATED TWO SANCTIONS RESOLUTIONS FROM 2006 AND 2009. RUSSIA AND CHINA SIGNALED THEY OPPOSE ANY NEW SANCTIONS. THE U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N., SUSAN RICE, HAD THIS TO SAY.

>> THE UNITED STATES'S VIEW OF THIS IS QUITE CLEAR. WE HAVE CONDEMNED THE LAUNCH. WE VIEW IT AS A DIRECT VIOLATION OF RESOLUTION 1718 AND 1874. WE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE COUNCIL RESPOND CEDABLY AND WE WILL BE WORKING IN THAT DIRECTION.

>> Warner: THREE PERSPECTIVES NOW ON THE FAILED NORTH KOREAN TEST. CHARLES VICK IS A BALLISTIC MISSILE EXPERT AND SENIOR TECHNICAL ANALYST FOR globalsecurity.org, WHICH ASSESSES WEAPONS PROGRAMS. AND JOINING HIM, TWO FORMER DIPLOMATS WITH LONG EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH NORTH KOREA. CHRISTOPHER HILL, A CAREER FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER HEADED THE U.S. DELEGATION TO THE SIX- PARTY TALKS WITH NORTH KOREA IN 2009. HE IS NOW THE DEAN OF THE UNIVERSITY OF DENVER'S JOSEF KORBEL SCHOOL OF INTERNATIONAL STUDIES. AND JOEL WITT SPENT 15 YEARS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND SERVED IN SEVERAL U.S. DELEGATIONS NEGOTIATING WITH NORTH KOREA IN THE 1990s. HE IS NOW A VISITING FELLOW AT THE U.S.-KOREA INSTITUTE AT JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY'S SCHOOL OF ADVANCED INTERNATIONAL STUDIES. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. CHARLES VICK, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU. THIS ROCKET DIDN'T EVEN GET AS FAR AS THEIR LAST ROCKET LAUNCH IN 2009. WHAT WENT WRONG?

>> WHAT WENT WRONG WAS A SERIES OF EVENTS. BASICALLY IT WAS A CLASSIC MAXIMUM DYNAMIC PRESSURE FAILURE WHICH THE VEHICLE IS JUST SHAKEN APART. AND THIS PRIMARILY AFFECTED ITS THIRD STAGE. AND THE PAYLOAD AND THE SHROUD ITSELF, THAT'S WHAT BROKE OFF AT FIRST AND LANDED APPROXIMATELY 165 KILOMETERS FROM OFFICES WEST OF SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA. THEN YOU LOOK AT THE ACTUAL REST OF THE VEHICLE WITH THE FIRST STAGE CONTINUED ITS BURN FOR ABOUT 120 SECONDS FROM LIFTOFF. AND THEN SHUT OFF AUTOMATICALLY RISING TO AN ALTITUDE OF 151 KILOMETERS.

>> LIKE FOUR MINUTES TOTAL?

>> AND THE FLIGHT WAS 4 TO 6 MINUTES IN TOTAL. THE INTELLIGENCE CONTINUES TO CHANGE AS IT WILL FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, I WOULD THINK. BECAUSE OF THE CONSTANT REVIEW PROCESS THAT IS USED BY THE COMMUNITIES. AND WE HAVE THREE DIFFERENT NATIONS INVOLVED HERE.

>> HOW BIG A SETBACK IS THIS TO THEIR, AT LEAST WHAT THE WEST ASSUMES IS THEIR GOAL WHICH IS TO DEVELOP A ROCKET THAT'S CAPABLE OF DELIVERING A NUCLEAR WARHEAD THAT COULD THREATEN ITS NEIGHBORS OR EVEN THE UNITED STATES?

>> IT CERTAINLY DEGRADES THAT THREAT CONSIDERABLY. THIS LAUNCH VEHICLE HAS FAILED AT LEAST THREE DIFFERENT TIMES, PRIMARILY IN THE SAME GENERAL AREAS. 35 SECONDS IN 2006 AFTER LAUNCH, AND DYNAMIC FAILURE THERE. YOU ALSO HAVE THE SAME THING OCCURRING WITH THE THIRD STAGE ACTUALLY FAILING TO IGNITE IN 2009. AND THIS TIME THE THIRD STAGE JUST FELL OFF, IN EFFECT.

>> AMBASSADOR HILL, TURNING TO YOU, WHAT EXPLAINS THIS MOVE ON THE NORTH'S PART? I MEAN EVERYBODY, ALL THE MAJOR POWERS HAD UNITED IN TELLING THEM, URGING THEM NOT TO DO THIS. THEN THEY ARE JUST IN A DEAL ANNOUNCED SIX WEEKS AGO IN WHICH THE NORTH WAS AGREEING TO SUSPEND ROCKET LAUNCHES. AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM IN RETURN FOR FOOD AID FROM THE UNITED STATES.

>> WELL, CERTAINLY THE NORTH KOREANS ARE VERY PROUD OF THEIR OPAQUENESS. AND THIS IS A CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE IT'S REALLY KIND OF HARD TO KNOW WHAT WENT ON. BUT IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THERE WAS A LOT OF PRESSURE PUT ON NORTH KOREA, ESPECIALLY FROM CHINA TO TRY TO GET BACK IN THE PROCESS. THE U.S. WENT ALONG WITH THAT. THE U.S. WORKED THROUGH IT AND IMPLICITLY LINKED FOOD WITH A STAND-DOWN ON ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAMS AND CONTINUE MISSILE MORATORIUM. I THINK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT NOT ALL NORTH KOREANS AGREE TO THAT AND ULTIMATELY THEY UNDID THE NEGOTIATIONS WITHIN WEEKS. THIS IS A DIFFERENT PATTERN THOUGH FROM THE PAST. IN THE PAST WHEN THING WAS GO BADLY ON SOME NEGOTIATING ISSUE, THE NORTH KOREAN WAS THEN ISSUE SOME KIND OF PROVOCATION. IN THIS CASE THINGS WERE GOING FAIRLY WELL. SO IT SUGGESTS THAT PROBABLY THEY DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THEIR ACT TOGETHER, THEY DIDN'T REALLY HAVE ALL OF THEIR LEADERSHIP ON ONE PAGE ON THIS. SO I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHAT HAPPENED. AND AS FOR ALL THE PRESSURE FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, I DON'T THINK THE NORTH KOREANS REALLY CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT PRESSURE FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

>> JOEL WITT, THIS COMES AT A TIME OF COURSE IN THE TRANSITION TO A NEW LEADER. DO YOU AGREE WITH AMBASSADOR HILL THAT IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS KIND OF DISARRAY T THAT ONE HAND DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE OTHER WAS DOING? ONE HAND IS CUTTING A DEAL WITH THE U.S. AND THE OTHER HAND IS PUSHING FORWARD ON THE MISSILE FRONT?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THEORIES HERE ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING. AND ONE THEORY IS THAT THREE TRAINS WERE PUT ON THE TRACK IN THE FALL OF LAST YEAR. AND THAT IS --

>> WHEN HIS FATHER WAS LIVE.

>> WHEN KIM JONG IL WAS ALIVE. HE MADE THREE DIFFERENT DECISIONS. FIRST TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS TEST, SECONDLY TO MOVE FORWARD WITH A NUCLEAR TEST. THIRD, TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE NEGOTIATIONS. AND UNFORTUNATELY, HIS FATHER DIED IN DECEMBER AND THESE THREE TRAINS HAVE CONTINUED TO MOVE FORWARD. AND NO ONE MADE A DECISION TO TURN ANY OF IT OFF. SO THAT'S JUST ONE EXPLANATION. BUT I AGREE, NORTH KOREA IS A VERY OPAQUE PLACE AND WE DON'T REALLY KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, AND CHARLES VICK, BACK TO YOU B THE PROSPECTS OF NOW WHAT SOUTH KOREA HAS BEEN WARNING ABOUT. THAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO DO ANOTHER NUCLEAR UNDERGROUND TEST. FIRST OF ALL WHAT DOES THIS SATELLITE IMAGERY TELL US? WHAT ARE THE --

>> THE SATELLITE IMAGERY TELLS US THAT INDEED, THEY HAVE DUG SOME NEW TUNNELS AS WE HAD SEEN IN PREVIOUS YEARS, AS A PRELUDE TO SUCH NUCLEAR TESTS. SO THAT IS EXPECTED. IN RELATION TO LAUNCH VEHICLES, THE SOUTH KOREAN-- I MEAN THE NORTH KOREANS HAVE ALREADY MADE VERY CLEAR THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO A SECOND LAUNCH IN THIS FIVE-YEAR PLAN, EVEN THOUGH THIS ONE WAS PLANNED, BOTH OF THESE WERE PLANNED IN THE PREVIOUS FIVE YEAR PLANS. SO THE POINT IS THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO ANOTHER LAUNCH.

>> AMBASSADOR HILL, HOW DO YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO REACT TO THIS FAILURE? DO YOU THINK IT MAKES IT MORE OR LESS LIKELY OR IS IT IMMATERIAL TO WHETHER THEY GO AHEAD NOW WITH THE NUCLEAR UNDERGROUND TEST?

>> WELL, I DEFER TO OTHERS AS TO THE DIMENSIONS OF THIS TECHNICAL FAILURE. I MEAN OBVIOUSLY THEY'VE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THIS ROCKET BEFORE. AND THEY MIGHT SORT SO TO SPEAK GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD. BUT I THINK THEY'RE PRETTY INTENT ON PUSHING AHEAD WITH THIS MISSILE PROGRAM. THEY UNDERSTAND THAT A NUCLEAR PROGRAM WITHOUT A MEANS OF DELIVERY SELL REALLY NOT A NUCLEAR PROGRAM. SO I THINK THEY'RE PRETTY INTENT ON MOVING AHEAD. AND THE REAL QUESTION WILL NOT BE SO OF THE U.S. DIPLOMACY WITH NORTH KOREA AS IT WILL BE THE U.S. DIPLOMACY WITH SOUTH KOREA AND CHINA BECAUSE THE REAL QUESTION IS WHERE IS THIS GOING TO TAKE US. WE CAN SEE THAT KIM JUNG-UN HAS KIND OF FLUNKED HIS FIRST LEADERSHIP TEST HERE. AND WE CAN SEE THERE ARE PROBLEMS. AND THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THERE IS A SORT OF DIPLOMATIC PATH FORWARD. I CAN IMAGINE THE CHINESE ARE NOT AT ALL HAPPY WITH THE WAY THE NORTH KOREANS HAVE BEHAVED ON THIS.

>> JOEL WITT, DO YOU SEE ANY DIPLOMATIC PATH AT LEAST TO RESTRAINING THE NEXT NUCLEAR UNDERGROUND TEST, THE ASSUMED ONE?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY WAY OF HEADING THAT OFF. I MEAN, ALL THE EVENTS ARE IN MOTION. AND THEY'VE BEEN IN MOTION FOR A WHILE. THE MISSILE TEST, THEN OF COURSE EVERY ONE ANTICIPATED THAT WE WOULD GO TO THE U.N. FOR SANCTIONS. AND THE NORTH KOREANS KNEW THIS. SO THEY HAD PLANS FOR THE NUCLEAR TEST. THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. THERE'S NO WAY TO HEAD ANY OF THIS OFF. THE ISSUE IS AT WHAT POINT MIGHT WE GET BACK TO A SITUATION WHERE WE CAN AT LEAST REENGAGE THE NORTH KOREANS AND PUT IN PLACE A POLICY TO STOP THIS.

>> BUT WHAT KIND OF ENGAGEMENT-- I MEAN SUCCESSIVE ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE TRIED ISOLATION, AND THEY'VE TRIED ENGAGEMENT. AND NOTHING SEEMS TO DIVERT THEM FROM THEIR PATH.

>> WELL, IT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. BUT THE POINT HERE IS THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO PURSUE A POLICY TO DEAL WITH NORTH KOREA, YOU NEED TO NOT ONLY PURSUE PRESSURE AGAINST THEM THROUGH SANCTIONS AND OTHER STEP TO ITS BOLSTER YOUR MILITARY PRESENCE, YOU NEED TO REENGAGE AND ENGAGE THEM IN DIPLOMACY AND TALKING.

>> BRIEF FINAL THOUGHT FROM YOU CHARLES VICK. WHAT ABOUT AMBASSADOR HILL'S POINT THAT YOU REALLY HAVE GOT TO GET THE CHINESE EVEN MORE ENGAGED. THEY SAID THEY TRIED TO PRESSURE THE NORTH ON THIS ONE, IT DIDN'T WORK.

>> WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT NORTH KOREA AS WELL AS IRAN ARE QUID PRO QUO ALLIES OF CHINA. SO EXPECTING CHINA TO GO AGAINST ITS FRATERNAL NEIGHBOR AND ALLY IS VERY LIMITING FACTOR. AND THEY'RE JUST NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

>> ALL RIGHT, ON THAT ASSOCIATING NOTE, CHARLES VICK, AMBASSADOR HILL, AND JOEL WITT, THANK YOU BOTH, ALL THREE, I MEAN. BLZ AND STILL TO

>> Brown: STILL TO COME ON THE NEWSHOUR, LATIN AMERICAN NATIONS URGE THE U.S. TO CHANGE ITS DRUG POLICY; SENATOR DICK LUGAR IN THE FIGHT OF HIS POLITICAL LIFE; SHIELDS AND BROOKS; AND A "TITANIC" PRESENCE IN OUR CULTURE. BUT FIRST, THE OTHER NEWS OF THE DAY. HERE'S HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> Sreenivasan: PROTESTERS TURNED OUT BY THE THOUSANDS ACROSS SYRIA TODAY, TESTING THE REGIME'S COMMITMENT TO A U.N.- BROKERED CEASE-FIRE. DEMONSTRATORS POURED INTO THE STREETS AFTER FRIDAY PRAYERS AT MOSQUES. THERE WERE MAJOR RALLIES IN A MAIN SUBURB OF DAMASCUS, AND IN OTHER CITIES. ACTIVISTS SAID SECURITY FORCES FIRED TEAR GAS AND, IN SOME CASES, BULLETS, KILLING AT LEAST SIX PEOPLE. BUT THERE WERE NO REPORTS OF SHELLING OR SNIPER ATTACKS. IN EGYPT, MORE THAN 10,000 PEOPLE MASSED CAIRO'S TAHRIR SQUARE, AS ISLAMISTS PROTESTED LETTING A FORMER SPY CHIEF RUN FOR PRESIDENT. THE CROWDS CHANTED SLOGANS AGAINST THE RULING MILITARY AND HUNG BANNERS DENOUNCING OMAR SULEIMAN, WHO LED EGYPT'S SPY SERVICE FOR OUSTED PRESIDENT HOSNI MUBARAK. THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN WAS ALL ABOUT GUNS AND TAXES TODAY. REPUBLICAN MITT ROMNEY ADDRESSED THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION'S CONVENTION IN ST. LOUIS. HE PAINTED HIMSELF AS A DEFENDER OF GUN OWNERS, AND MADE A PITCH FOR THEIR SUPPORT. COME ON WE NEED A PRESIDENT WHO WILL ENFORCE CURRENT LAWS NOT CREATE NEW ONES ONLY FORCED TO BURDEN GUN OWNERS. PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS NOT. I WILL. WE NEED A PRESIDENT WHO WILL STAND UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF HUNTERS AND SPORTSMEN AND THOSE WHO SEEK TO PROTECT THEIR HOMES AND THEIR FAMILIES. PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS NOT. I WILL.

>> Sreenivasan: THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN RELEASED HIS 2011 TAX RETURN TODAY. THE FIRST FAMILY PAID JUST OVER 20% OF THEIR INCOME IN TAXES, COMPARED TO ABOUT 15% FOR MITT ROMNEY. THE RETURN SHOWED THE FIRST COUPLE EARNED JUST SHY OF $790,000 LAST YEAR. THEY PAID ABOUT $162,000 IN FEDERAL TAXES. AND THEY DONATED MORE THAN THAT, JUST OVER $172,000 TO CHARITY. THE MAYOR OF NEWARK, NEW JERSEY, CORY BOOKER, WAS HAILED AS A HERO TODAY AFTER HE RAN INTO A BURNING HOUSE TO SAVE A WOMAN. BOOKER CAME HOME LAST NIGHT TO FIND HIS NEIGHBOR'S HOUSE ON FIRE. HIS SECURITY TEAM HAD ALREADY RESCUED SEVERAL PEOPLE, WHEN THE MAYOR DASHED IN TO FIND ZINA HODGE, WHO WAS TRAPPED UPSTAIRS. BOOKER SAID TODAY HE FEARED FOR HIS LIFE AT ONE POINT.

>> YOU ALWAYS ARE PRAISING YOUR FIREFIGHTERS AND NOW I ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE. AND I HAVE A DEEPER RESPECT FOR THEM THAN I'VE EVER HAD BEFORE. BECAUSE IN THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU HEAR SOMEBODY CALLING FOR HELP, AND YOU ARE STARING AT A ROOM ENGULFED IN FLAMES, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY, VERY TER FIING. AGAIN, PEOPLE SAY BRAVERY, I FELT FEAR.

>> Sreenivasan: HE WAS TREATED FOR SMOKE INHALATION AND BURNS ON HIS RIGHT HAND. THE WOMAN HE RESCUED WAS IN STABLE CONDITION, WITH SECOND- DEGREE BURNS. WALL STREET CLOSED OUT A LOSING WEEK ON A LOSING NOTE. THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE DROPPED NEARLY 137 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 12,849. THE NASDAQ FELL 44 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 3011. FOR THE WEEK, THE DOW LOST 1.5%. THE NASDAQ FELL 2%. THOSE ARE SOME OF THE DAY'S MAJOR STORIES. NOW, BACK TO JEFF.

>> Brown: A SUMMIT OF LATIN AMERICAN LEADERS THAT COULD PRODUCE A DEBATE ABOUT DRUGS. RAY SUAREZ HAS THE STORY.

>> Suarez: IN MEXICO AND ELSEWHERE IN LATIN AMERICA DRUG LORDS HAVE BEEN PARADED TO PRISONS IN RECENT YEARS. AND POLICE HAVE STEPPED UP ARRESTS AND SEIZURES OF ILLEGAL DRUGS, MOST BOUND FOR THE LARGE AND WEALTHY U.S. DRUG MARKET. STILL, DRUG VIOLENCE HAS STEADILY INCREASED, GIVING RISE TO CALL FORCE LEGALLIZATION OF SMALL QUANTITIES OF MARIJUANA. COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT SANTOS ADDRESSED THE TOPIC THIS WEEK, AS HE PREPARED TO HOST THE SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS THIS WEEKEND.

>> THAT IS NOT THE MAIN SUBJECT OF THIS SUMMIT, AND IT SHOULDN'T BE. WILL WE DISCUSS IT, YES. BECAUSE THAT IS THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE ATTENDING.

>> Suarez: SIX OF THE ATTENDING NATIONS, ARGENTINA, BRAZIL, COLOMBIA, ECUADOR, MEXICO AND YOU ARE DAY HAVE ALREADY LEGALIZED SMALL AMOUNTS OF MARIJUANA FOR PERSONAL USE. THE UNITED STATES HAS REMAINED STEADFAST IN OPPOSING LEGALLIZATION SINCE PRESIDENT NIXON BEGAN THE WAR ON DRUGS IN THE EARLY 1970s. LAST MONTH VISITING MEXICO, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THERE WAS NO POSSIBILITY THAT VIEW WOULD CHANGE. AND EARLIER THIS MONTH PRESIDENT OBAMA PRAISED MEXICO'S ONGOING BATTLE AGAINST THE DRUG CARTEL.

>> PRESIDENT HAS SHOWN GREAT COURAGE IN STANDING UP TO THE TRAFFICKERS.

>> Suarez: BUT AN ESTIMATED 50,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN MEXICAN DRUG VIOLENCE SINCE 2006. AND WHEN MEXICAN PRESIDENT CALL DER ON VISITED THE U.S. CONGRESS TWO YEARS AGO HE URGED AMERICANS TO CURB THEIR APPETITE FOR DRUGS.

>> YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE CHALLENGE TO OUR SECURITY HAS ROOTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER. AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S ORIGIN IS 9 HIGH DEMAND FOR DRUGS HERE AND IN OTHER PLACES.

>> Suarez: PRESIDENT OBAMA MAY HEAR THAT POINT AGAIN, AS WELL AS THE CALL TO LEGALIZE DRUGS AS HE JOINS 32 OTHER LEADERS CONVENING FOR THE SUMMIT IN COLOMBIA. TWO VIEWS NOW ON THE LATIN AMERICAN DRUG DEBATE TWO VIEWS NOW ON THE LATIN AMERICAN DRUG DEBATE AND THE U.S. RESPONSE. ETHAN NADELMANN IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE DRUG POLICY ALLIANCE, WHICH ADVOCATES DECRIMINALIZATION. RAY WALSER IS A FORMER CAREER FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER AND SENIOR POLICY ANALYST AT THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION. TTEAN NEDELMANN, LET ME START WITH YOU. WHEN THE PRESIDENT JOURNEYS DOWN TO COLOMBIA AND BEGINS THE MEETING, WILL HE FIND SENTIMENT HEMISPHERICALLY AS RADICALLY SHIFTED FROM EARLIER MEETINGS? OR IS IT JUST A FEW LEADERS WHO HAVE CHANGED THEIR PUBLIC POSTURE?

>> WELL, I WILL TELL YOU, RAY, THIS IS REALLY AN HISTORIC GATHERING IN MANY RESPECTS. BECAUSE IT'S THE FIRST MAJOR GATHERING OF HEADS OF STATE AT WHICH THE ISSUE OF ALTERNATIVES TO THE FAILED PROHIBITIONIST POLICIES IS GOING TO BE ON THE AGENDA. HE'S NOT GOING TO BE HEARING PEOPLE SAY LEGALIZE ALL DRUGS TOMORROW, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. WHAT HE IS GOING TO HEAR IS A COALITION OF PRESIDENTS LEAD BY PRESIDENT SAN TO THE COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT WHO IS THE HOST OF THIS CONFERENCE AND THE FORMER GENERAL WHO BECAME THE PRESIDENT OF GUATEMALA AND A HOST OF OTHERS SAYING OPEN THIS DISCUSSION UP. WE NEED TO DEVOTE THE SAME ATTENTION TO LOOKING AT ALTERNATIVES TO THE FAILED DRUG WAR POLICIES, INCLUDING THE DIFFERENT FORMS OF DECRIMINALIZATION AND LEGAL REGULATION AS HAS BEEN DEVOTED TO FAILED DRUG WAR POLICIES OF THE PAST. SO IT'S A CALL FOR AN OPENING OF THE NEW DIALOGUE, A NEW DISCUSSION. AND THE FACT THAT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WHEN HE WENT DOWN THERE LAST MONTH SAID THE U.S. IS AGAINST LEGALIZING BUT WE NOW ACKNOWLEDGE THIS IS A LEGITIMATE SUBJECT FOR DISCUSSION, THAT RESONATED THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA. SO LATIN AMERICAN LEADERS ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING REGARDING AN OPENING BY THE PRESIDENT TO SAY THAT THIS IS LEGITIMATE SUBJECT AND THE U.S. WILL PARTICIPATE IN GOOD FAITH.

>> Suarez: RAY WALSER, A LEGITIMATE SUBJECT FOR CONVERSATION. BUT IS THERE ANY SIGNAL FROM THE UNITED STATES THAT THEY ARE LOOKING TO CHANGE THEIR POLICY?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK-- I THINK THAT THE OTHER PART OF THE BIDEN MESSAGE WAS, HE SAID YES, THERE IS A CONVERSATION. AND WE KNOW WHERE THAT CONVERSATION WILL END. THAT IT WILL END THAT LOCALLIZATION-- LEGALLIZATION IS NOT THE ROUTE THAT THE UNITED STATES OR OTHER COUNTRIES SHOULD FOLLOW. SO AND I THINK ANOTHER CONCERN IS IT IS TECHNICALLY NOT ON THE AGENDA OF THE SUMMITMENT BUT IT GOING TO BE, I THINK, A SIDE CONVERSATION. I AGREE THAT THE PRESIDENTS FINALLY COME TOGETHER AND WANT TO TALK TO THE UNITED STATES. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE ANY SORT OF RESOLUTION OR A COALITION. IN MY MIND, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S LIKE RAISING U.S. IMMIGRATION POLICY AT THE SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS. IT JUST REALLY DOESN'T HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF TRACTION.

>> Suarez: ETHAN NEDELMANN WE KNOW WHAT THE EFFECT OF THE WAR ON DRUGS HAS BEEN IN THE UNITED STATES. WHAT EFFECT DOES IT HAVE IN A COUNTRY LIKE GUATEMALA, LET'S SAY?

>> LOOK, IN THE UNITED STATES IT HAS LEAD TO THE LARGEST INCARCERATION RATE IN THE WORLD, TO THE LARGEST INCARCERATION RATE OF ANY DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY IN HISTORY. IN PLACES LIKE CENTRAL AMERICA, GUATEMALA, OTHER PARTS IN THE REGION, IT'S LIKE THE DAYS OF-- IT'S LIKE CHICAGO DURING THE DAYS OF AL CAPONE AND PROHIBITION TIME 50S, THAT IS PART OF WHAT IS PROMPTING SOME OF THESE LEADERS TO SPEC OUT. AND YOU KNOW IT'S ALSO, THEY'RE BUILDING ON SOMETHING AM SO WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE LAST FOUR AND FIVE YEARS IS THAT MORE AND MORE VOICES HAVE SPOKEN OUT. YOU HAD THE THREE FORMER PRESIDENTS OF BRAZIL AND COLOMBIA AND MEXICO, HEADING UP FOR THE LATIN MANAGER COMMISSION AND GLOBAL COMMISSION CALLING TO BREAK THE THAT WOULD FOR CONSIDERING ALTERNATIVE OS TO THE WAR ON DRUGS. THEY ENLISTED GEORGE SULINGTS, PAUL VOLCKER AND KOFI ANNAN, JAVIER-- THE EU DEFENSE CHIEF, PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, ARCHBISHOPS OF COLOMBIA, GUATEMALA, MILITARY LEADERS, BUSINESS LEADERS, SOCIAL JUSTICE LEADERS ARE ALL STEPPING UP SO WHAT IS REALLY NEW IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN A THAT WOULD FOR THE LAST A TABOO FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS ON ANY DISCUSSION. THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS SUPPRESSED IT, IGNORED IT AND WILL CONTINUE TO TRY TO DERAIL IT AND DISTORT THIS DEBATE. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS GENIE IS NOW OUT OF THE BOTTLE FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, AND THIS CONVERSATION IS GOING TO CONTINUE.

>> Suarez: RAY, WALSER IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THE LEADER WHO HAVE SPOKEN OUT IN FAVOR OF SOME FORM OF DECRIMINALIZATION ARE HISTORICALLY NO SOFTIES ON DRUGS. WEREN'T THE LEADERS OF COSTA RICA, GUATEMALA, COLOMBIA AMONG THE LEADERS OF THEIR COUNTRY'S ANTI-DRUG EFFORTS?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN LET'S TAKE COLOMBIA. LOOK WHAT THE BATTLE AGAINST 9 CARTELS IN THE '90s, THE BATTLE AGAINST NARCO TERRORISM OF THE-- CENTRAL AMERICA WAS NOT NECESSARILY A BIG BATTLEGROUND FOR TRANSNATIONAL CRIME UNTIL SORT OF MEXICO GOT TOUGH ON THE TRAFFICKERS, PUSHED IT DOWN INTO CENTRAL AMERICA. I AGREE, WE ARE THE MARKET. WE HAVE TO DO THINGS ABOUT IF. LEGALIZING MARIJUANA MIGHT TAKE A MARGINAL AMOUNT OF PROFIT AWAY FROM TRANSNATIONAL YELL ORGANIZATIONS. THAT I THINK IS REALLY WHERE THE CONVERSATION NEEDS TO BE. HOW DO YOU BUILD UP INSTITUTIONS. HOW DO YOU TACKLE THESE VERY VIOLENT GANGS WHICH USE, YES, DRUGS IS ONE CONDUIT, BUT THEY'RE GOING SORT OF MORE OF INTO THE CONTINUED THREAT THEY ARE TO THE SECURITY OF CENTRAL AMERICAN STATES TO MEXICO. SO I THINK IT HAS TO BE A BROADER CONVERSATION. BUT I AGREE THAT WE NEED, THE WHITE HOUSE TO STEP UP TO SPEAK ABOUT THE ISSUE. AND I THINK THAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT OURSELVES. I MEAN I DON'T THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO LEGALIZE COCAINE, METHAMPHETAMINE, AND MARIJUANA, YOU COULDN'T EVEN PASS A REFERENDUM IN CALIFORNIA AT THIS POINT. IT'S A LONG PROCESS, I AGREE. THE U.S. PUBLIC OPINION, LAWMAKERS COULD CHANGE. I DON'T THINK IT'S A TABOO SUBJECT IN THE UNITED STATES BUT I THINK IT'S ONE THAT NEEDS A MUCH BROADER SORT OF DISCUSSION.

>> Suarez: WELL, GENTLEMEN, WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU BOTH BRIEFLY BEFORE WE GO ON WHETHER THE U.S. RISKS REDUCED COOPERATION IN THE WAR ON DRUGS IN HEMISPHERIC TERMS IF IT DOESN'T LISTEN WHAT THESE OTHER HEMISPHERIC LEADERS HAVE TO SAY ON MODIFYING DRUG POLICY. ETHAN?

>> I WOULD STATE U.S. DOES HAVE TO LISTEN. BECAUSE I PARTIALLY AGREE WITH THE OTHER RAY HERE T SAY TWO TRACK DISCUSSION. ONE IS HOW WE TAKE OUT AND DESTROY THESE CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION. BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU CAN'T DEFEAT WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A DYNAMIC GLOBAL COMMODITIES MARKET, WHICH IS WHY WE NEED TO PUT THE ALTERNATIVES ON THE TABLE. AND THAT INCLUDES THE LEGALLIZATION OF MARIJUANA, PUBLIC OPINION IS MOVING THAT WAY IN THE U.S. IT INCLUDES THE DECRIMINALIZATION OF SMALL AMOUNTS OF POSSESSION OF ANY DRUG. AND IT INCLUDES LOOKING FOR OTHER WAYS TO TAKE THE ILLEGAL MARKET OUT OF THE UNDERGROUND AND TRY TO MOVE IT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, IN A CONTROLLED FASHION NOORX A LEGAL REGIME.

>> Suarez: AND RAY WALSER.

>> IS AGAIN, I THINK WE NEED SORT OF THE BROAD DISCUSSION. WE NEED TO BRING IT BACK HOME. WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT OCCURS IN THIS-- THIS COMING YEAR. AND FOR COOPERATION, IT'S AGAIN A TWO-WAY STREET. THEY DO WANT U.S. COUNTERDRUG COOPERATION. SO THEY HAVE TO SORT OF LISTEN TO US. AND ON THE OTHER HAND, AS THEY POINTED OUT EARLIER, WITH CALDERON AS LONG AS THEY SEE THE UNITED STATES AS A NET EXPORTER OF INSECURITY T IS GOING TO CREATE PROBLEMS IN MEXICO AND THE RIDGE.

>> Suarez: GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU BOTH.

>> Warner: WE TURN TO POLITICS NOW, AND A VETERAN SENATOR FIGHTING OFF A PRIMARY CHALLENGE IN INDIANA. GWEN IFILL HAS OUR REPORT.

>> HI, HOW ARE YOU.

>> MANNING THE FORT BACK HERE.

>> Ifill: BEHOLD THE ENDANGERED SPECIES.

>> I'LL GET SOME MORE SIGNS BACK HERE.

>> Ifill: RICHARD LUGAR AT 80 YEARS OLD, THE MOST SENIOR REPUBLICAN IN THE SENATE, ACKNOWLEDGED EXPERT ON NUCLEAR AND FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES. A FIFTH GENERATION HASIER IS BEING TARGETED BY HIS OWN PARTY FOR DEFEAT. EVEN HE SEEMS SLIGHTLY BAFFLED.

>> SOME PERSONS WITHIN OUR PARTY WHO SAY MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. THEY REALLY ARE LESS INTERESTED IN MY JUDGEMENT, IN WHETHER REPUBLICANS HAVE A MAJORITY IN THE SENATE OR THE HOUSE, THEN THAT THERE BE A CERTAIN STANDARD IN COURSE PURITY AMONG THOSE WHO ARE THERE. THEY DO NOT FEEL IT'S-- TO WORK WITH DEMOCRATS ACROSS THE AISLE, COMPROMISE IS A BAD WORD.

>> DICK LUGAR HAS CHANGED.

>> Ifill: THE OBJECTIONS COME FROM CONSERVATIVE GROUPS LIKE THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION, FROM SUPER PAC LIKE FREEDOM WORKS FOR AMERICA AND THE SMALL GOVERNMENT CLUB FOR GROWTH. ALL CROWDING THE INDIANA AIRWAVES WITH ANTI-LUGAR ADVERTISING.

>> WHEN DICK LUGAR MOVED TO WASHINGTON 35 YEARS AGO, THE NATIONAL DEBT WAS LESS THAN A TRILLION DOLLARS. NOW, IT'S OVER 15 TRILLION. WHAT'S LUGAR DONE.

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING OUT.

>> Ifill: LUGAR'S CHALLENGER IS STATE TREASURER RICHARD MUSH DOCK WHO WAS ELECTED FOR THE FIRST TIME THERE 2008. AND LUIG CERTIFICATE NOW BEING FORCED TO STRIKE BACK AT ONE OF HIS OWN.

>> RICHARD MURDOCH'S ALREADY SOLD OUT TO DC OUTSIDER GROUPS RUNNING HIS CAMPAIGN ON THE BACKS OF THEIR MONEY. AND MICKEY MOUSE ATTACKS.

>> I'M CONFIDENT THERE WILL BE A LOT OF NATIONAL MONEY FLOWING IN TO HELP US.

>> NO IDEAS FOR HASIERS, JUST OUTSIDER MONEY AND ATTACKS.

>> I WANT TO THANK GOD FOR THAT I WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU.

>> Ifill: BRIAN WHO WRITES A STATEWIDE POLITICAL LETTER FROM HIS INDIANAPOLIS HOME HAS NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT.

>> THIS IS REALLY UNPRECEDENTED. IN THE TELEVISION AGE OF INDIANA POLITICS. WE'VE NEVER HAD AN INCUMBENT U.S. SENATOR CEDICALLY-- CEDABLY K458 ENGED IN A PRIMARY. SO-- CEDABLY CHALLENGED IN A PRIMARY SO THIS RACE IS BREAKING ALL SORTS OF MOULDS.

>> Ifill: THE STAKES ARE HIGH IN INDIANA A RED STATE PRESIDENT OBAMA TURNED BLUE FOUR YEARS AGO AM DEMING CRATS ARE ANXIOUS TO SOLIDIFY THEIR HOLD ON THE U.S. SENATE AND TEA PARTY REPUBLICANS WANT TO PROVE TO THE MAINSTREAM GOP THAT THEY ARE HERE TO STAY. INDIANA'S FARM AND MANUFACTURING ECONOMY FALTERED BADLY DURING THE RECESSION. SO THE STATE IS LESS FRIENDLY TERRITORY FOR DEMOCRATS THIS YEAR. AND IT'S MORE FERTILE GROUND FOR REPUBLICANS LIKE DWIGHT LYLE WHO VOTED FOR LUGAR FOR YEARS BUT WILL NOT THIS TIME.

>> AND WAS'S CHANGED?

>> WELL, HE'S CHANGED. HE IS A LIBERAL. AND I AM NOT. HE DOESN' REPRESENT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES 9 WAY I THINK HE SHOULD. AND I CAN'T VOTE FOR HIM. IF HE IS RUNNING BY HIMSELF I WOULD HAVE TO VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT, I THINK.

>> SO YOU ARE A WINNER.

>> Ifill: BUT LUGAR LOYALISTS LIKE PAMELA, HAVE BEEN MOVED THIS YEAR TO VOLUNTEER FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> BECAUSE I THINK IT'S DESPERATE. THERE'S SUCH A CONTRAST BETWEEN THE CANDIDATES. AND I WOULD BE APPALLED TO HAVE SOMEONE AS DISINGENUOUS AS MR. MOURDOCK REPRESENTING INDIANA. HE BELIEVES THERE'S TOO MUCH COLLABORATION. IT'S HIS ILK THAT PARALYZED THE GOVERNMENT AFTER THE 2010 ELECTION.

>> Ifill: MOURDOCK, A TEA PARTY FAVORITE SAYS LUGAR'S REPUBLICAN VISION IS DATED.

>> THIS SI A VERY BROAD-BASED COALITION. THIS IS AN INTRAPARTY REBELLION, IF YOU WILL AGAINST SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN THERE A LONG TIME AND WHO UNFORTUNATELY HAS SEPARATED HIMSELF FROM INDIANA REPUBLICANS.

>> GOOD MORNING. JIM MOURDOCK.

>> NICE MEETING YOU.

>> Ifill: 20 YEARS LUGAR'S JUNIOR, MOURDOCK SAYS THE SENATOR WHO HAS VOTED FOR THE DEBT CEILING, THE AUTO BAILOUT AND TWO OBAMA SUPREME COURT NOMINEES IS RIPE FOR DEFEAT.

>> IT IS TIME FOR A DIFFERENT SENSE OF CONSERVATISM IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE. AND I THINK THAT IS ESPECIALLY TRUE NOW THAT MITT ROMNEY IS THE NOMINEE APPARENT.

>> MOURDOCK, MOURDOCK.

>> Ifill: TEA PARTY ACT VISES MADE UP HIS MIND TO TRY TO DEFEAT LUGAR EVEN BEFORE HE FOUND ANOTHER CANDIDATE TO SUPPORT.

>> HE HAS DRIFT TOAD FAR TO THE LEFT. AND RIGHT NOW A LOT OF HIS SUPPORTERS WILL SAY WELL, HE'S A SPACEMAN AND HE WORKS BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE. -- A STATES MANN, IT SEEMS LIKE OUR SIDE, THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE IS ALWAYS ASKED TO COME TO THE CENTER AND REACH ACROSS THE AISLE, WHERE THE LEFT, OR THE LIBERALS, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY DON'T SEEM TO DO THAT. SO WE WOULD RATHER SOMEBODY FIGHT FOR OUR PRINCIPALS.

>> Ifill: BUT THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT IS NOT OF ONE MIND. ANOTHER TEA PARTY LEADER IS BACK LUGAR.

>> THE ATTITUDE ACROSS AMERICA IS-- I THINK SENATOR LUGAR HAS BEEN LUMP MOOD THAT THROW THE BUMS OUT PHENOMENA. AND INAPPROPRIATELY, BUT NEVERTHELESS, THERE'S KIND OF THAT FRUSTRATION WITH CONGRESS THAT WE'RE NOT HAPPY WITH YOU.

>> Ifill: LUGAR HAS ALSO HURT HIS OWN CAUSE BECAUSE HE SOLD HIS INDIANA HOME IN THE 1970s, HE DIDN'T HAVE A LEGAL VOTING ADDRESS. WHAT'S MORE, TAXPAYERS WERE FOOTING THE BILL FOR HIS INDIANA HOTEL BILLS.

>> A DIVISION OF TWO DEMOCRATS AND ONE REPUBLICAN, CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I MIGHT BE ON THE BALLOT RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION BUT MY WIFE AND I COULD NOT VOTE. SO THAT WAS A SHOCKER TO SAY THE LEAST.

>> HELLO, THANK YOU FOR CALLING-- .

>> Ifill: LUGAR ULTIMATELY CHANGED HIS LEGAL ADDRESS TO A FARM HIS FAMILY OWNS AND REPAID NEARLY $15,000 IN HOTEL COSTS. BUT THE CONTROVERSY HAS HELPED MOURDOCK TO MAKE HIS SPACE.

>> IS A HUGE ISSUE, AND IT IS NOT HUGE JUST IN THE SENSE OF WHERE HE IS ALLOWED TO VOTE AND WHERE HE ISN'T. IT WAS HUGE IN THE SENSE THAT HE WANTED TO MAKE A COURT FIGHT OVER THE FACT THAT YOU CAN'T MAKE ME LIVE IN THAT STATE. AND IT WAS JUST AN INCREDIBLE THING TO WATCH.

>> THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT 1974.

>> Ifill: FORMER STATE PARTY CHAIRMAN MIKE McDANIEL TAKES HEART IN RECENT POLLS THAT SHOW LUGAR AHEAD. BUT HE WORRIED THAT WITH THE PRIMARY LESS THAN A MONTH AWAY, THE MARGIN IS NOT WIDE ENOUGH.

>> THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT'S CHANGED, ONE T IS BECOME MORE OF A CONTACT SPORT THAN EVER. I MEAN TO CLAIM THAT SOMEHOW THIS GUY IS NOT A HASIER IS OUTRAGE US. AND IT'S PETTY POLITICS. AND IT'S KIND OF THE SILLINESS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. THIS IS WHAT POLITICS IN AMERICA HAS EVOLVED TO. THIS KIND OF STUFF. WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT SERIOUS ISSUES. HE IS A SERIOUS LEADER FOR SERIOUS TIMES. WE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

>> Ifill: LUGAR WAS NOT THE ONLY TARGET. UTAH'S ORRIN HATCH SPENT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO DIFFUSE AN INTRAPARTY CHALLENGE IN UTAH. NOW THE BULK OF THE PARTY'S ANTI-INCUMBENCY MOVEMENT IS FOCUSED ON INDIANA.

>> ONE. MISTAKES OF LUGAR ORGANIZATION MADE WAS IN 2006 WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE A DEMOCRATIC OPPONENT, WHICH IS PRETTY UNPRECEDENTED NORTH OF THE MASON DIXON LINE, I THINK THAT THEY FELT LIKE HE HAD ASCENDED FIRMLY INTO STATESMANHOOD. AND FELT LIKE IF HE WANTED ONE FINAL TERM TO FINISH UP HIS BUSINESS, THERE PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE TEA PARTY RISES UP AND EVERYTHING CHANGED.

>> Ifill: SO THE SENATOR WHO WORLD LEADERS SEEK OUT WHEN THEY COME TO WASHINGTON IS WORKING THIS SPRING TO PREPARE HIS BASE.

>> GO LUGAR!

>> THERE IS AN IMPLICATION THAT WE HAVE SERVED LONG ENOUGH, THAT MY AGE IS A FACTOR, THAT WOULD PROHIBIT REALLY ACTIVE AND VIGOROUS SERVICE IN THE FUTURE. THAT IT IS ALL WELL AND GOOD TO AT LEAST SALUTE AN ELDERLY GENTLEMAN WHO HAS DONE A GOOD JOB FOR THE STATE AND THE COUNTRY, BUT AS YOU SAY IT'S TIME REALLY TO TRY ON SOMETHING ELSE, SOMETHING NEW, SOMETHING DIFFERENT, SOMETHING YOUNGER.

>> Ifill: BUT YOU DONE AGREE WITH THAT THINKING.

>> NO, OF COURSE I DON'T. I BELIEVE THAT SOME OF THE BEST TIMES ARE STILL AHEAD.

>> Ifill: THE OPEN QUESTION FOR LUGAR IS WHETHER THOSE GOOD TIMES WILL HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE.

>> Brown: AND THAT BRING TO US THE ANALYSIS OF SHIELDS AND BROOKS, SYNDICATED COLUMN NIS MARK SHIELDS AND COME NIST DAVID BROOKS. WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Suarez: .

>> Brown: RICHARD LUGAR WHAT DOW MAKE OF THAT, IS THAT ANOTHER SIGN OF THE DIMINISHING OR MISSING MIDDLE?

>> IT S THE STRENGTH OF RICHARD LUIG CERTIFICATE THAT HE IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS WORKED FOR CONSENSUS AND COALITION AND COMPROMISE. AND THAT IS REPORTED PRETTY VIVIDLY. THAT HAS BECOME IN MANY QUARTERS THE KISS OF DEATH, THAT WE DON'T WANT SOMEBODY WHO CAN GET DOWN AND WORK ACROSS DIFFERENT FACTIONS. WE WANT SOMEBODY WITHOUT JUST MEETS OUR CHECKLIST. WHETHER IT'S ON ABORTION OR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE OR IN INVADING IRAN OR TAX CUTS OR WHATEVER. WE JUST WANT THIS RO BAT WHO WILL GO THERE, IF HE OR SHE DOESN'T, THEN GET RID OF HIM AND PUT SOMEBODY ELSE IN. IT'S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT VIEW OF WHAT GOVERNMENT IS. DO YOU HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE GO DOWN, WE AGREE WITH ON MOST THINGS WHO CAN WORK ACROSS, AND FORGE A CONSENSUS AND A COMPROMISE AND COMPROMISE IS NOT A DIRTY WORD.

>> IT'S INTERESTING TO HEAR PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW HE HAS CHANGED OR HAS OUR DEFINITION CHANGED.

>> I THINK IT'S OUR DEFINITION. I DON'T THINK HE HAS CHANGED. HERE HE IS SEEN AS 9 QUINTESSENTIAL HOOSER. SO IT IS LARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE HE'S NOT QUINTESSENTIALLY INDIANA ENOUGH. HE'S ALWAYS BEEN A PRETTY CONSERVATIVE GUY. AND HE STILL IS A PRETTY CONSERVATIVE GUY. HE IS AN INSTITUTIONALIST. I OFTEN ASK SENATORS JUST IN SIGNAL CHAT, WHO YOU HAVE MET UP HERE WHO YOU REALLY ADMIRE, YOU LIKE THE WAY THEY DO BUSINESS, AND LUGAR'S NAME IS THE NUMBER ONE MOST OFTEN NAME IN MY EXPERIENCE. THEY MENTION LUGAR AS SOMEBODY WHO IS A SENATOR THE WAY THEY WANT TO BE A SENATOR. HE HAS A COUPLE OF THINGS WHICH HAVE HISTORICALLY HURT PEOPLE. FIRST HAVING LONG SERVICE. BUT SECOND, ESPECIALLY FOREIGN POLICY. BEING A FOREIGN POLICY SPECIALIST IS NOT NECESSARILY THE EASIEST TICKET TO RE-ELECTION. THERE ARE A LOT OF HEADS OF COMMITTEES AND THINGS LIKE THAT WHO HAVE JUST LOST.

>> Brown: ESPECIALLY A YEAR LIKE THIS.

>> ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE HATE WASHINGTON. MY FRIENDS IN INDIANA SAY HE IS FACING AN EXTREMELY TOUGH RACE, BUT HE IS A SUPREME SENATE INSTITUTIONALIST.

>> Brown: .

>> NOW SPEAKING OF THE MIDDLE, HOW POLITICIANS PLAY TO IT, THIS WAS THE WEEK WHEN MITT ROMNEY CLOSED THE DEAL, SO TO SPEAK, RIGHT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> Brown: DOES HE NOW MOVE TO THE MIDDLE? WHAT DOES HE DO?

>> WELL, HE DOESN'T MOVE TO THE MIDDLE, AND ANNOUNCE I'M MOVING TO THE MIDDLE. BUT THE MIDDLE DOES MATTER IN AMERICAN POLITICS, JEFF, AS LONG AS INDEPENDENTS AND THOSE WHO ARE UNDECIDED, TICKET SPLITTERS MAKE THE DECISION WHO BECOMES THE NEXT PRESIDENT. SO IT DOES MATTER. nd THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT MITT ROMNEY WAS PUSHED TO THE RIGHT BY THE CAMPAIGN AND PROBABLY BEYOND HIS NATURAL COMFORT ZONE. BUT TO WIN HE HAD TO MOVE OVER THERE. AND I THINK THAT WHAT HE IS FACING RIGHT NOW IS THE PROBLEM THAT THE CHARGE AGAINST HIM, LEVELED MOST VEHEMENTLY BY HIS PRINCIPAL CHALLENGER, RICK SANTORUM IS THAT HE WAS THE WORLD'S BIGGEST FLIP-FLOPPER. SO HE CAN'T BE SEEN AS MOVING OVERTLY OR ABANDONING POSITIONS THAT HE TOOK IN THIS EMPLOYMENTARY FIGHT.

>> Brown: SO HOW DOES HE DO THAT, WE HEARD THE FAMOUS ETCH-A-SKETCH ANALOGY A FEW WEEKS BACK. HOW DOES'S PEEL WITHOUT LOSING HIS --

>> THE FIRST THING HE HAS TO DO IS BE HIMSELF. AND WHO IS HE, HE IS A DATA DIVER, A PROBLEM SOLVER, HE IS NOT A PARTICULARLY IDEAOLOGICAL PERSON PERSON, IF YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WORKING WITH HIM F YOU GIVE HIM A GRAND IDEAOLOGICAL PHILOSOPHY IT GOES STRAIGHT THROUGH. IT'S JUST NOT THE WAY HE THINKS. SO HE IS A PROBLEM SOLVER, WANTS TO GET EVIDENCE AND MAKE A DECISION. SO I THINK GOING BACK TO THAT, WITHOUT RENOUNCING ANYTHING, WILL BE FINE. THE SECOND THING IS LOOK AT WHO HE HAS TO DEAL WITH AND WRITTEN OVER. HE HAS HAD A REALLY BAD SEVERAL WEEKS IN THE POLLS, AS A LOT OF MEN AND WOMEN HAVE FLED FROM HIM. AND THE PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR WHO HAVE FLED AND WHO ARE THE ONES WHO ARE WINNABLE ARE ESPECIALLY DOWNSCALE VOTERS. A LOT OF COLLEGE EDUCATED WOMEN WHO ARE REALLY VERY STRONGLY ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE. HE IS PROBABLY NOT GOING GET THOSE PEOPLE. BUT WHERE HE HAS REALLY SEEN SLIPPAGE IS AMONG HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATED WOMEN. HE HAS GOT TO PROVIDE AN AGENDA BASED ON SECURITY AND SOCIAL MOBILITY FOR THOSE PEOPLE. SO FAR HE SHOW THOSE SIGN OF DOING THAT. SO FAR EVEN AT THE NRA TODAY HE IS STILL DOING THE QUINTESSENTIAL REPUBLICAN LINE, IT'S ALL ABOUT FREEDOM, LET'S CUT GOVERNMENT. HE HAS TO DO MORE THAN THAT GEORGE W. BUSH DID MORE, HW, EVEN JOHN McCANE HAD SERVICE. IT WASN'T JUST, WE HATE GOVERNMENT IT WAS SOMETHING TO HELP PEOPLE OUT. AND HE'S GOT TO GIVE A HELP YOU OUT AGENDA.

>> Brown: OF WHAT RICK SANTORUM, YOU MENTIONED HIM. WHAT OF HIS FOLLOWERS, WHAT OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM?

>> WELL, I THINK FIRST OF ALL RICK SANTORUM DID SOMETHING THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE DO. MOST PEOPLE RUN FOR PRESIDENT HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL BEFORE THEY DO. THEY HAVE BEEN GOVERNORS, SENATORS, SUCCESSFUL IN BUSINESS. AND MOST OF THEM LOSE. AND MOST OF THEM LEAVE DIMINISHED FIGURES. RICK SANTORUM CAME IN AS A MARGINAL DARK HORSE. AND LEAVES AS A MUCH ENHANCED FIGURE, HAVING WON 11 CONTESTS. RONALD REAGAN IN 1976 WON 12, AND HE IS THE OSTENSIBLE LEADER OF THAT CON TEFERB-- CONSERVATIVE CULTURAL SOCIAL WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> Brown: I WAS THINKING WE BARELY TALKED ABOUT HIM IN THE BEGINNING.

>> IT IS REMARKABLE. AND ALSO TO ME A VALIDATION OF THE VALUE OF HAVING TWO STATES LIKE IOWA AND NEW HAMPSHIRE EARLY, WHERE AN UNDERDOG, UNDERFINANCED CANDIDATE WHO IS WRITTEN OFF BY ALL THE WISE GUYS AND ALL THE POLLSTERS, BY SHEER EFFORT ENERGY, DISCIPLINE, DETERMINATION AND EFFECTIVE MESSAGE, HIS CAMPAIGNING IN 99 COUNTIES IN IOWA, ENABLED HIM TO SPRING THE UPSET AND TO DO IT AGAINST MONEY. I MEAN THERE IS REALLY T WAS QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT. NOW HE THEN BLEW IT WITH ONE OF THE TRULY, TWO OF THE MOST DEVASTATING SELF-INFLICTED WOUNDS IN MY POLITICAL EXPERIENCE, WHEN HE SAID JOHN KENNEDY'S HOUSTON MINISTER SMEECH MADE HIM THROW UP AND BARACK OBAMA WAS A SNOB WANTING KIDS TO GO TO COLLEGE. HE LOST MICHIGAN THAT CLOSE LOOECHLT THAT SAID, WITH ALL PEOPLE OF CHALLENGE WHETHER JESSE JACKSON IN '84 OR '88 OR JOHN McCAIN IN 2000, OR WHOEVER ELSE, GARY HART IN '84, PAT BUCHANAN, '92. WHAT THEY WANT IS THE VALIDATION AT THE CONVENTION. THEY WANT THAT MOMENT WHERE THEY CAN MAKE A SPEECH WITH THEIR SUPPORTERS CAN CHEER AND MAKE NOISE MAKERS AND SO FORTH. AND I THINK THAT IT IS IN ROMNEY'S INTEREST TO ACCOMMODATE.

>> DOES VERY MORE THAN THAT, A LITTLE MORE THAN THAT?

>> I THINK SO, AS A SPOKESMAN, LISTEN WE WILL HAVE A GUY FROM HARVARD LAW SCHOOL RUNNING AGAINST A GUY FROM HARVARD LAW SCHOOL SO WE CAN USE THE UP TO CAMBRIDGE AND SAVE TIME SO RICK SANTORUM REPRESENTS AND SPOKE FOR A GROUPS THAT'S NOT LIKE THAT.

>> NOT EVEN HARVARD YALE.

>> RIGHT, NO IT USED TO BE WE WOULD HAVE HARVARD YALE, THAT WAS DIVERSITY, IN THE OLD DAYS. SO BUT NOW WE HAVE A GUY FROM WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA WHOSE GRANDFATHER FAMOUSLY COAL MINOR, AND WHO WON OVER A LOT OF DOWNSCALE VOTERS. SPECIFICALLY BY TALKING ABOUT HOW I'M GOING HELP YOU. AND ESPECIALLY BY TALKING ABOUT HOW SOCIAL VALUES INTERACTED WITH ECONOMIC VALUES. HOW DIVORCE AND FAMILY BREAKDOWN REALLY HURT THE COUNTRY'S ECONOMIC PROSPECTS. HE DIDN'T DO IT AS AGGRESSIVELY ENOUGH BUT DE IT. AND SO COPING THOSE ITEMS ON THE AGENDA, BOTH FOR DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, VERY VALUABLE THING TO DO.

>> Brown: LET'S LOOK AT, I GUESS WE COULD CALL THIS THE FLAP OF THE WEEK, HILLARY ROSEN REFERRING TO ANN ROMNEY AS HASN'T WORKED A DAY IN HER LIFE. AND THEREFORE HER HUSBAND SHOULDN'T LOOK TO HER AS A SOURCE ON THE MIGHT OF WOMAN. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT.

>> YEAH, WELL, I THINK HILLARY ROSEN WAS GRACELESS FROM START TO FINISH, FRANKLY, THROUGHOUT ALL THIS. I PERSONALLY THINK AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID THIS, IT'S LIKE, I THINK JOHN DICKERSON CALLED IT THE UMBRAGE WARS WHERE SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING STUPID AND EVERYBODY PRETENDS TO BE REALLY UP SET AND PEOPLE PRETEND TO BE REALLY UP SET. AND THERE IS WHAT PASS FORCE MEDIA IN TWITTER POLITICS THESE DAYS. I THINK THERE WAS A TIME WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID OH PEOPLE, WOMEN WHO STAY AT HOME AND RAISE THEIR KIDS ARE SOMEHOW NOT DOING ENOUGH WITH THEIR LIVES. I REALLYF.

>> THE PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT'C CAMPAIGN MANAGER ALL REPUDIATED IT.

>> THE ALLEGED WAR ON WOMEN.

>> WHAT YOU HAVE WITH ROMNEY IS A CANDIDATE WHO HAS NOT CONNECTED WITH VOTERS.

>> TO MAKE HER NOT SIMPLY THE CENTERPIECE. ANYWAY YOU ENERGIZE, STAY AT HOME MUMS WHO HAVE BEEN INDIFFERENT TO WHAT BASICALLY SANTORUM, TO OTHER CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES AND NOT TO ROMNEY, AND THEY ALL OF A SUDDEN SAY GEE, WE CAN BOND WITH THE ROMNEYS. THEN YOU HAVE ENERGIZED A CONSTITUENCY THAT HAS BEEN DORMANT AND ALMOST INDIFFERENT TO MITT ROMNEY.

>> Brown: AND ANN ROMNEY NO LONGER A SECRET WEAPON.

>> I AGREE WITH MARK AS HER QUALITY AS A CANDIDATE. IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENTS AND ALL THEIR SPOUSES. SHE'S THE BEST. SHE JUST TRUST AUDIENCE.

>> OF THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK THEY SHOULD FLIP THE PARTICULAR OR WHATEVER THE SPOUSE RELATIONSHIP IS IT IS A NATURAL, SHE GOES IN FRONT OF A CROWD AND SHE JUST HAS A NATURAL INSTINCTIVE TRUST. WHEREAS MITT ROMNEY WANTS TO MEET PEOPLE, HE WORKS HARD, HE IS A GOOD GUY, HE DOES NOT HAVE THAT INSTINCTIVE TRUST, LIKE SORT OF A SPIRITUAL STAGE DIVER, WILL YOU CATCH ME, SHE HAS THAT.

>> Brown: SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME LEFT, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE TAX ISSUE. THE PRESIDENT RAISED SO THE CALLED BUFFETT RULE THIS WEEK. IS IT GOOD ECONOMIC POLICY, IS IT GOOD POLITICS.

>> IS IT GOOD POLICY, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN SEPARATE THE TWO. IS THE ANSWER TO THE NATION'S PROBLEMS, NO. IS IT A STEP TO MAKE AVAILABLE TO VOTERS THE CHOICE, WITH THE TAX SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW? AND TO CHANGE IT? IT'S NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE DEFICIT, IT'S TO THE GOING TO BRING DOWN THE NATION'S DEBT. BUT I DO THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES THAT TAXES BE BASED ON THE ABILITY TO PAY. AND THEY ARE NOT RIGHT NOW. AND IF THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE MAKING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, PAYING LESS THAN 15%, I THINK IT IS A LEGITIMATE ISSUE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO RAISE IT IS A POLITICAL ISSUE. IS IT GOING TO EMBARRASS MITT ROMNEY WHO MADE $21 MILLION AND PAID AT 15%, YES, IS IT INTENDED TO DO SO, YES. BUT THAT IS IN NO WAY, THE LONGEST TRIP OF A THOUSAND MILES BEGINS WITH A SINGLE STEP. THIS IS A STEP TOWARDS TAX REFORM.

>> THIS IS SUBTERFUGE AND DEFENSE-- DECEPTION T ONLY RAISES 5, 7 BILLION A YEAR, IT IS PEANUTS F YOU WANT THE RICH TO PAY MORE, WHICH I DO, CUT THE DAMN LOOPHOLES. DON'T PUT A BAND-AID ON TOP A DISEASED TAX CODE. AND THE PRESIDENT IS NOT WILLING TO HAVE A REAL TAX REFORM. BUT IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT, DO HAVE A REAL TAX REFORM. AND DON'T PRETEND TO TELL PEOPLE YOU CAN HAVE THE GOVERNMENT YOU WANT AND SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO PAY. THERE AREN'T ENOUGH RICH PEOPLE TO PAY. SO I THINK THIS IS A POLITICAL GESTURE THAT IS TO THE GOING AT THE CORE ISSUE.

>> JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO EVERYTHING, DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T DO SOMETHING. IT IS NOT THE PANACEA, AND A AGREE WITH DAVID. AND IT ISN'T GOING BE TO BE DONE BY THE TOP 2% THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. BUT IT IS A STEP AND REPUBLICANS ARE WRONG TO OPPOSE IT.

>> Brown: WE WILL NO DOUBT COPE TALKING ABOUT FAX POLICIES OVER THE NEXT MONTHS. DAVID BROOK, MARK SHIELDS. THANKS.

>> AND IF YOU WANT EVEN MORE OF MARK AND DAVID AND WHO WOULDN'T, RIGHT, THEN YOU CAN CATCH THEM LATER ON WITH HARI ON OUR WEB SITE FOR WHAT WE CALL THE DOUBLEHEADER.

>> Warner: FINALLY TONIGHT, REMEMBERING THE "TITANIC," AND EXPLORING WHY ITS STORY RESONATES IN OUR MODERN AGE.

>> THE STORY OF THE TECHNOLOGICAL TRIUMPH THAT ENDED IN TRAGEDY STILL CAPTIVATES THE PUBLIC MIND. 100 YEARS AFTER THE TITANIC SANK. THIS WEEKEND WILL SEE SCORES OF EVENTS MARKING THE CENTENNIAL ANNIVERSARY FROM THE RE-RELEASE OF THE LATE '90s BLOCKBUSTER FILM, NOW IN 3-D --

>> I'LL NEVER LET GO.

>> TO COMMEMORATIVE CRUISES ALONG THE SHIP'S ORIGINAL INTENDED COURSE. WHEN IT SETS SAIL FROM SOUTHAMPTON, ENGLAND, TO NEW YORK, THE TITANIC WAS HAILED AS THE LARGEST VESSEL IN THE WORLD. AND TOUTED AS UNSINKABLE. BUT JUST FOUR DAYS INTO ITS MAIDEN VOYAGE THE LUXURY CRUISESHIP HIT AN ICEBERG AND SANK, KILLING MORE THAN 1500 PASSENGERS AND CREW. WITH THE SHIP WRECK LYING ON THE OCEAN FLOOR, ITS TALE HAS SPAWNED COUNTLESS BOOKS AND FILMS. AND THE WRECKAGE ITSELF ATTRACTS UNDERWATER TOURISTS AND SCAVENGERS, PROMPTING CALLS FOR ITS PRESERVATION.

>> WE COVERING ARTIFACTS, THE BELONGINGS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED IS NOT TO BE DONE.

>> Reporter: WHETHER OR NOT THE WRECKAGE SURVIVES ANOTHER 100 YEARS, FASCINATION WITH ITS STORY AND FATE SEEM SURE TO ENDURE. AND FOR MORE ON WHY THE FASCINATION ENDURES, WE TURN TO FOR MORE ON WHY THE FASCINATION ENDURES, WE TURN TO WRITER AND CRITIC DANIEL MENDELSOHN. HIS LATEST PIECE IN THE "NEW YORKER" IS "UNSINKABLE: WHY WE CAN'T LET GO OF THE TITANIC." WELCOME. SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE TITANIC TALE AND ITS THEMES THAT SO GRIP OURS IMAGINATION AND HAS FOR 100 YEARS.

>> WELL, I THINK MOSTLY IT'S THAT IT'S A REAL LIFE EVENT THAT UNFOLDS AS IF IT WERE BASICALLY A WORK OF LITERATURE. YOU KNOW, IT IS SORT OF TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE. IT HAS ALL THE THEMES. IT HAS THE STRUCTURE. YOU KNOW THERE IS SOMETHING IRRESISTABLE ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S TOO PERFECT.

>> GIVE US AN EXAMPLE WA, DOW MEAN WHAT THEME.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT THE OLDEST THEME OF ALL, WHICH IS MAN VERSUS NATURE. THAT'S ONE, RIGHT HUBRIS, THE SUBJECT SOPH MANY GREEK TRAGEDIES. THEY SAY THEY ARE GOING TO BUILD A SHIP THAT CAN'T SINK, OF COURSE IT SINKS. IT'S ABOUT CLASS. IT'S A PERFECT PARNOHADININGRATABLE ABOUT CLASS AT THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY. IF YOU WERE A PLAN IN FIRST CLASS YOU HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVING THAN IN YOU WERE A SMALL CHILD IN THIRD CLASS IT SEEMS TO BE ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND OVERCONFIDENCE IN TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS SOMETHING WE'RE VERY INTERESTED IN STILL, OBVIOUSLY. AND THE LIMITS OF TECHNOLOGY. SO ALL OF THESE THINGS SEEM TO BE SORT OF OVER DETERMINED. YOU KNOW, IN ONE STORY, YOU GET CLASS, YOU GET OVERWEANING ARROGANCE, YOU GET TECHNOLOGICAL OVERCONFIDENCE AND IT ALL COMES TOGETHER AND YOU FUTURE IN THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, BIGGEST SHIP EVER BUILT AND IT SINKS ON A PIECE OF ICE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN.

>> ON ITS MAIDEN VOYAGE. YOU WRITE IN A PIECE, YOU BEGIN WITH THE FACT THAT YOUR UNCLE WHEN YOU WERE AGE 12 ENROLLED YOU IN A CLUB CALLED TITANIC ENTHUSIASTS OF AMERICA. AND I WON'T TRY TO SPECULATE ON WHAT YOUR AGE MAY BE, BUT HAVE THE THEMES THAT RESONATE CHANGED OVER TIME, AT LEAST HERE IN THE U.S.?

>> I DON'T THINK SO WELL, I MEAN IT COULD BE. I THINK AT THE VERY BEGINNING THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF ANGUISH ABOUT THE CLASS ISSUE, YOU KNOW IT WAS VERY SHOCKING WHEN THIS FIRST CAME OUT THAT THE SCALES WERE TIP SO GREATLY AND SO OBVIOUSLY IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE WHO WERE FIRST CLASS PASSENGERS. AND I THINK TODAY THE SORT OF TECHNOLOGICAL THEME PREDOMINATES. AND ALSO --

>> YOU MEAN THE LIMITS OF OUR TECHNOLOGY.

>> THE LIMITS OF TECHNOLOGY. IT'S LIKE A CHALLENGER DISASTER. MANY OF THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WERE SAID AFTER THE CHALLENGER DISASTER WERE SAID AFTER THE TITANIC SANK. HOW HERE WE THOUGHT WE HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT. AND WE WERE GETTING SO ACCUSTOMED TO THESE FANTASTIC TECHNOLOGICAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS. AND IT TURNS OUT WE DIDN'T GET IT ALL RIGHT. SO THAT, AS LONG AS WE HAVE TECHNOLOGY, THAT'S GOING TO BE A THEME THAT INTERESTS US.

>> AND THEN, OF COURSE, AS YOU POINTED OUT, IT REALLY CAPTURED A CLASSICAL MYTH. IT IS A MYTH AND IT --

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE IS AN IDEA THAT THE TITANIC ITSELF IS A KIND N A FUNNY WAY, YOU KNOW, A HERO OF THIS MYTHIC STORY. YOU KNOW, WE GO TO GREEK PLAYS TO WATCH GREAT HEROES LIKE OEPI -- IPU WHO EVERYBODY THINKS LAS ALL THE ANSWER, POWERFUL, STRONG, ACCOMPLISHED, FALL APART, THAT IS WHY WE GO TO SEE THESE DRAMAS T IS STILL WE WHY WE DID GO TO SEE DEATHS OF A SALESMAN OR WHATEVER. AND THE TITANIC ITSELF LOOKS LIKE ONE OF THESE HEROES. IT IS A WONDERFUL, IMPREGNABLE, YOU KNOW -- UNSIJ T SEEMS TO HAVE IT ALL AND WE GET A CERTAIN KIND OF FUNNY PLEASURE FROM WATCHING A DRAMA IN WHICH SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL DISINTEGRATES.

>> AND WE KNOW IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS. WELL, THANK YOU, DANIEL.

>> AND WE STILL WATCH.

>> AND WE STILL WATCH, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANKS A LOT

>> Walker: AGAIN, THE MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS OF THE DAY. THE U.S. AND OTHER NATIONS VOICED WORRIES ABOUT WHAT COMES NEXT, AFTER NORTH KOREA'S LONG- RANGE ROCKET LAUNCH FAILED. AND PROTESTERS FILLED SYRIAN CITIES, TESTING THE REGIME'S ADHERENCE TO A DAY-OLD CEASE- FIRE. AND DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE OBAMAS' TAX RETURN? WE HAVE THE DETAILS ONLINE. HARI SREENIVASAN EXPLAINS.

>> Sreenivasan: AN INFO-GRAPHIC SHOWING WHAT THE PRESIDENT EARNED, PAID IN TAXES, AND GAVE TO CHARITY LAST YEAR IS ON PAUL SOLMAN'S MAKING SENSE PAGE. ON ART BEAT, JEFF TALKS TO PHILIPPE FALARDEAU, DIRECTOR OF THE OSCAR-NOMINATED FILM, "MONSIEUR LAZHAR," WHICH OPENED IN U.S. THEATERS TODAY. AND TONIGHT ON "NEED TO KNOW," HOW ORDINARY CITIZENS REDRAWING THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS IN CALIFORNIA. FIND A LINK ON OUR WEB SITE. ALL THAT AND MORE IS AT newshour.pbs.org. MARGARET?

>> Warner: AND THAT'S THE NEWSHOUR FOR TONIGHT. ON MONDAY, WE'LL LOOK AT THE WORLD BANK'S PICK FOR A NEW PRESIDENT. I'M MARGARET WARNER.

>> Brown: AND I'M JEFFREY BROWN. "WASHINGTON WEEK" CAN BE SEEN LATER THIS EVENING ON MOST PBS STATIONS. WE'LL SEE YOU ONLINE, AND AGAIN HERE MONDAY EVENING. HAVE A NICE WEEKEND. THANK YOU, AND GOOD NIGHT. MAJOR FUNDING FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY:

>> CITI TURNS 200 THIS YEAR. IN THAT TIME, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME GOOD DAYS AND SOME DIFFICULT ONES. BUT THROUGH IT ALL, WE PERSEVERED. SUPPORTING SOME OF THE BIGGEST IDEAS IN MODERN HISTORY. SO WHY SHOULD OUR ANNIVERSARY MATTER TO YOU? BECAUSE FOR 200 YEARS, WE'VE BEEN HELPING IDEAS FROM AMBITION TO ACHIEVEMENT. AND THE NEXT GREAT IDEA COULD BE YOURS. AND THE WILLIAM AND FLORA HEWLETT FOUNDATION, WORKING TO SOLVE SOCIAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS AT HOME AND AROUND THE WORLD. AND WITH THE ONGOING SUPPORT OF THESE INSTITUTIONS AND FOUNDATIONS. AND... THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING. AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU. Captioning sponsored by MacNEIL/LEHRER PRODUCTIONS Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org