PBS NewsHour; October 26, 2016 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

Captioning sponsored by NEWSHOUR PRODUCTIONS, LLC

>> Woodruff: GOOD EVENING. I'M JUDY WOODRUFF.

>> Sreenivasan: AND I'M HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> Woodruff: ON THE NEWSHOUR TONIGHT, DONALD TRUMP OPENS A NEW HOTEL NEAR THE WHITE HOUSE, AS HILLARY CLINTON CONTINUES TO RALLY VOTERS IN FLORIDA. A LOOK AT THE STATE OF THE RACE THROUGH POLLING AND SHIFTS IN CAMPAIGN SPENDING.

>> Sreenivasan: ALSO AHEAD THIS WEDNESDAY, AFTER HEATED OUTCRY, THE PENTAGON HALTS EFFORTS TO MAKE VETERANS PAY BACK IMPROPER BONUSES GIVEN TEN YEARS AGO.

>> Woodruff: AND, THE RISE OF WHITE NATIONALISM DURING THIS ELECTION-- AND WHY ONE GROUP HERALDS A NEW GENERATION OF SEPARATISTS VYING FOR MORE POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC POWER.

>> I WOULD DARE ANYONE TO GO INTO THE HOLLERS OF WEST VIRGINIA OR TO KENTUCKY, AND LOOK IN THE EYES OF WHITE WORKING CLASS MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, AND TELL THEM THAT THEY HAVE ANY POWER IN THIS SYSTEM WHATSOEVER.

>> Sreenivasan: ALL THAT AND MORE, ON TONIGHT'S PBS NEWSHOUR.

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>> Sreenivasan: WITH 13 DAYS TO GO, THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN RAN THE GAMUT TODAY, FROM RALLIES TO RIBBON CUTTING. JOHN YANG BEGINS OUR COVERAGE.

>> IF PEOPLE GET OUT AND VOTE WE WILL HAVE A VICTORY ON NOVEMBER 8.

>> Reporter: SCENES OF TWO CAMPAIGNS TODAY, JUST MINUTES APART. DONALD TRUMP TAKING TIME OFF AWAY FROM THE STUMP TO TEND TO OTHER BUSINESS: OFFICIALLY OPENING THE NEW TRUMP HOTEL ON PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

>> MY THEME TODAY: UNDER BUDGET, AHEAD OF SCHEDULE. SO IMPORTANT. TODAY IS A METAPHOR FOR WHAT WE CAN ACCOMPLISH FOR THIS COUNTRY.

>> Reporter: HILLARY CLINTON WAS CAMPAIGNING IN BATTLEGROUND FLORIDA ON HER 69th BIRTHDAY, SUGGESTING A DARKER SIDE TO TRUMP'S RIBBON-CUTTING.

>> HE RELIED ON UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS TO MAKE HIS PROJECT CHEAPER. AND MOST OF THE PRODUCTS IN THE ROOMS WERE MADE OVERSEAS.

>> Reporter: OTHERS ARE GETTING IN ON THE CAMPAIGN COMBAT, TOO.

>> CONGRATULATIONS, NEWT, ON LAST NIGHT.

>> TODAY, TRUMP PUBLICLY PRAISED HOUSE SPEAKER NEWT GINGRICH FOR TAKING ON FOX NEWS MEGYN KELLY.

>> IF TRUMP IS A SEXUAL PREDATOR--

>> HE'S NOT A SEXUAL PREDATOR.

>> OKAY, THAT'S YOUR OPINION. I AM NOT TAKING A POSITION ON THAT STATEMENT.

>> YOU COULD NOT DEFEND THAT STATEMENT.

>> I HAVE NOT TAKEN A POSITION ON IT.

>> I'M SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU, USING LANGUAGE THAT'S INFLAMMATORY, THAT'S NOT TRUE--

>> EXCUSE ME, MR. SPEAKER. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER IT'S TRUE OR NOT.

>> AND HILLARY CLINTON IN A SECRET SPEECH IN BRAZIL, TO A BANK THAT PAID HER $225,000, SAYING HER DREAM IS AN OPEN BORDER, WHERE 600 MILLION PEOPLE COULD COME TO AMERICA? THAT'S NOT WORTH COVERING?

>> THAT IS WORTH COVERING, AND WE DID.

>> HAVE YOU WATCHED TAPES OF YOUR SHOW RECENTLY? YOU ARE FASCINATED WITH SEX, AND YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT PUBLIC POLICY.

>> Reporter: AND AFTER VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID HE'D LIKE TO TAKE TRUMP BEHIND THE HIGH SCHOOL GYM, TRUMP SAID BRING IT ON.

>> THE PRESS ALWAYS ASKS ME,

>> DID YOU SEE WHERE BIDEN WANTS TO TAKE ME? "TO THE BACK OF THE BARN." ME. HE WANTS TO. I'D LOVE THAT. I'D LOVE THAT.

>> Reporter: TRUMP RETURNED TO CAMPAIGNING THIS AFTERNOON IN ANOTHER CRUCIAL STATE: NORTH CAROLINA. AS THE CANDIDATES DRIVE TO THE FINISH, REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING PROMISED THERE'D BE NO HONEYMOON IF CLINTON WINS the white house AND THE G.O.P. HOLDS THE HOUSE. OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN JASON CHAFFETZ TOLD "THE WASHINGTON POST" THERE WOULD BE IMMEDIATE HEARINGS INTO CLINTON'S TIME AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT. HE SAID THEY ALREADY HAVE "TWO YEARS' WORTH OF MATERIAL LINED UP." MEANWHILE, DONALD TRUMP JR. TOLD THE NEWSHOUR THAT THE PEOPLE HE'S MET DURING THE CAMPAIGN HAS HIM THINKING ABOUT A POLITICAL FUTURE-- FOR HIMSELF.

>> IT'D BE AN HONOR TO ONE DAY BE ABLE TO DO THAT. I THINK I'VE GOT TO GET MY KIDS THROUGH SCHOOL, AND AFTER THIS I MAY NEED A GOOD TEN-YEAR BREAK FROM POLITICS. BUT YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THERE IS A RUSH TO IT. I MEAN, THERE IS SOMETHING VERY EXCITING AND VERY MOVING AND HUMBLING WHEN YOU ARE SPEAKING WITH THOSE PEOPLE.

>> Reporter: SO SOMEDAY, THERE COULD BE ANOTHER CANDIDATE NAMED TRUMP. FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR, I'M JOHN YANG.

>> Woodruff: IN THE DAY'S OTHER NEWS: PAKISTAN'S CITY OF QUETTA VIRTUALLY CLOSED DOWN TO MOURN 61 VICTIMS OF A MASSACRE AT A POLICE ACADEMY. THE ASSAULT, LATE MONDAY, TARGETED CADETS AS THEY SLEPT. MORE THAN HALF A MILLION PEOPLE LIVE IN QUETTA, BUT TODAY THE STREETS WERE MOSTLY EMPTY AS BUSINESSES AND OFFICES MEMORIALIZED THE VICTIMS. BOTH AN ISLAMIC STATE AFFILIATE AND A TALIBAN SPLINTER GROUP HAVE CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY.

>> Sreenivasan: THE TALIBAN IS DENYING IT KIDNAPPED AND KILLED 26 CIVILIANS IN AFGHANISTAN. THE VICTIMS WERE TAKEN TO A HOSPITAL MORGUE TODAY. THEY HAD BEEN ABDUCTED IN THE REMOTE CENTRAL PROVINCE OF GHOR ON TUESDAY. FARTHER EAST, TALIBAN FIGHTERS DID CUT THE MAIN HIGHWAY LINKING KABUL TO KANDAHAR. IT'S THE LATEST IN A SERIES OF ASSAULTS.

>> Woodruff: NEW WARNINGS TODAY FROM IRAQ THAT ISLAMIC STATE FIGHTERS IN MOSUL ARE KILLING AND KIDNAPPING SCORES OF CIVILIANS. AT THE SAME TIME, THOUSANDS OF OTHERS ARE FLEEING TO FREEDOM, AS GOVERNMENT TROOPS ADVANCE. JONATHAN RUGMAN OF INDEPENDENT TELEVISION NEWS REPORTS FROM THE FRONT LINES.

>> Reporter: THE ROAD TO MOSUL IS PAVED WITH BAD INTENTIONS. THE SMOLDERING OIL DONALD TRUMPS AND TIRES WHO HOPED THE SMOKE WOULD SAVE THEM FROM COALITION AIR STRIKES. AND THE SKEL TONES OF CARS, CRIFFEN BY SUICIDE BOMBERS, TOWARD THE FRONT LINE. BEHIND THIS WALL OF EARTH LIES A VILLAGE. THIS A SHRINKING CALIPHATE OF FEAR. IT IS THE ONLY VILLAGE NOW LYING BETWEEN US AND MOSUL, WHICH LIES SIX MILES DOWN THE ROAD FROM HERE. AT THIS RATE, IRAQI SPECIAL FORCES WILL BE IN THE SUBURBS OF THE CITY WITHIN THE NEXT FEW DAYS. ALL THE HOMES LIE ABANDONED, BUT THIS ONE IS FULL OF SURPRISES, FOR IF AND WHEN THE OWNERS RETURN, THEY WILL FIND A RUSSIAN T-54 TANK PARKED IN THEIR LIVING ROOM, AN ATTEMPT BY THE JIHADISTS TO HIDE IT FROM AIR STRIKES. RUNNING ALONG THE BACK GARDEN IS AN ISIS TUNNEL STRETCHING FOR HUNDREDS OF METERS, COMPLETE WITH BREATHE HOLES FOR THE FIGHTERS BELOW. LAST NIGHT, IRAQI TROOPS THOUGHT THEY HEARD SOMEBODY INSIDE, SO THEY FILED INTO IT AND SET IT ALIGHT. AND VILLAGERS WHO SURVIVED THE FIERCE BOMBARDMENT OF THE LAST 10 DAYS ARE NOW LEAVING, HEADING THROUGH THE FIELDS TO FREEDOM AFTER ENDURING MORE THAN TWO YEARS OF ISIS RULE. THIS DUSTY REFUGEE CAMP IS THE HOME WHICH AWAITS THEM. THE MEN OF FIGHTING AGE AT FIRST HELD AT GUNPOINT AMID CHECKS THEY ARE NOT ISIS MILITANTS THEMSELVES. ALONG THE OUTSIDE OF THE CAMP FENCE, THE TEARS OF NEW ARRIVALS, THOSE WHO ESCAPED ISIS BEFORE THE MILITANTS ARRIVED NOW REUNITED WITH THOSE WHO ARE TRAPPED AND COULDN'T LEAVE UNTIL NOW. OVER 10,000 HAVE BEEN DISPLACED SINCE THIS OFFENSIVE BEGAN, 1,000 ARRIVING HERE THIS MORNING. AND AS THE ARMY ADVANCES TOWARDS MOSUL, MANY MORE ARE EXPECTED TO ARRIVE.

>> Sreenivasan: IN ISRAEL, 13 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH INCITING VIOLENCE, IN A VIDEO SHOWING JEWISH EXTREMISTS AT A WEDDING. IT SHOWED ROWDY CELEBRANTS HOLDING WEAPONS AND EVEN STABBING A PICTURE OF A PALESTINIAN TODDLER. THE CHILD HAD DIED WHEN HIS FAMILY'S HOME WAS FIREBOMBED.

>> Woodruff: FRENCH OFFICIALS HAVE FINISHED CLEARING THE CALAIS MIGRANT CAMP, GIVEN THE NAME "THE JUNGLE," AHEAD OF SCHEDULE. MORE THAN 6,000 PEOPLE WERE RELOCATED TO OTHER SITES. THEIR DEPARTURE LEFT FIREFIGHTERS TO BATTLE BLAZES SET BY SOME OF THE CAMP DWELLERS. THE REGIONAL PREFECT SAID IT'S A CUSTOM AMONG AFGHAN MIGRANTS.

>> ( translated ): WE HAVE

>> ( translated ): THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT IT'S A TRADITION WHICH IS VERY ESTABLISHED: WHEN YOU GO, YOU BURN. SO WE ORGANIZED OURSELVES IN ADVANCE. FIREFIGHTERS ARE ACTUALLY HERE 24 HOURS A DAY, SO THERE'S NO BIG RISK OF THE FIRE SPREADING.

>> Woodruff: MEANWHILE, THE U.N. REPORTS 2016 IS NOW THE DEADLIEST YEAR ON RECORD FOR MIGRANTS TRYING TO REACH EUROPE. IT SAYS AT LEAST 3,800 PEOPLE HAVE DIED TRYING TO CROSS THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA-- MORE THAN ALL OF LAST YEAR.

>> Sreenivasan: TWO EARTHQUAKES ROCKED CENTRAL ITALY TONIGHT, SENDING SHOCK WAVES ACROSS THE COUNTRY JUST TWO MONTHS AFTER ANOTHER QUAKE KILLED NEARLY 300 PEOPLE. THE NEW TREMORS WERE CENTERED SIX MILES BELOW GROUND, NEAR THE TOWN OF VISSO, 110 MILES NORTH OF ROME. AROUND VISSO, SEVERAL OLD CHURCHES AND OTHER BUILDINGS COLLAPSED INTO RUBBLE. THE QUAKES ALSO CLOSED SOME ROADS, AND INJURED TWO PEOPLE.

>> Woodruff: AND, THIS WAS A MIXED DAY ON WALL STREET. THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE GAINED 30 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 18,199. THE NASDAQ FELL 33 POINTS, AND THE S&P 500 SLIPPED THREE.

>> Sreenivasan: STILL TO COME ON THE NEWSHOUR: WHERE THE MOST MONEY IS BEING SPENT, TWO WEEKS BEFORE ELECTION DAY; THE SECRET COMPUTER CODES TRYING TO SWAY YOUR POLITICAL OPINIONS; REPRIEVE FOR SOLDIERS HIT WITH AN UNEXPECTED BILL, AND MUCH MORE.

>> Woodruff: WE DIG IN NOW TO THE NUMBERS IN THE RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE, WITH MOST NATIONAL AND BATTLEGROUND STATE POLLS SHOWING HILLARY CLINTON AHEAD. AS THE NUMBER OF UNDECIDED VOTERS SHRINK BY THE DAY, WE ARE JOINED BY TWO PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE A CAREER IN POLLING: DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER PETER HART IS FOUNDER OF HART RESEARCH AND ASSOCIATES, AND IS FRESH FROM CONDUCTING A FOCUS GROUP OF VOTERS IN CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA; AND WHIT AYRES, A REPUBLICAN POLLSTER AND AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "2016 AND BEYOND: HOW REPUBLICANS CAN ELECT A PRESIDENT IN THE NEW AMERICA." AND WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU. LET'S TALK ABOUT WHERE THIS RACE STANDS NATIONALLY, PETER. WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?

>> WELL, IT LOOKS PRETTY UPHILL IF YOU'RE DONALD TRUMP AND ON THAT SIDE. YOU LOOK AT HILLARY CLINTON, SHE STANDS IN MUCH BETTER SHAPE, AND THE ORGANIZATIONAL EFFORTS ARE GOING TO BE IMPORTANT FOR HER. BUT I THINK SHE IS PRIMED TO DO VORL ELECTION NIGHT.

>> Woodruff: HOW DO YOU SEE TWHITT?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT AN AVERAGE OF RECENT POLLS, JUDY, HILLARY CLINTON IS AHEAD BY ABOUT SIX PERCENTAGE POINT. TO PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE, MITT ROMNEY LOST TO BARACK OBAMA IN 2012 BY FOUR POINTS, AND JOHN McCAIN LOST TO BARACK OBAMA IN 2008 BY SEVEN POINTS. SO THE DEFICIT NOW IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THE 2008 AND 2012 NUMBERS.

>> Woodruff: PETER, IF PEOPLE WATCHING WANT TO KNOW WHO AND WHAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO HER DOING WELL AND HIS NOT DOING AS WELL, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT?

>> SHE HAS BROADENED BEYOND THE TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC COALITION, AND SHE'S REACHING ACROSS TO INDEPENDENTS. BUT SHE'S DOING EXCEPTIONALLY WELL WITH WOMEN AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME. I THINK ALL THE TROUBLES THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS HAD AND HIS DIFFICULTIES HAVE PARLAYED A SITUATION WHERE INDEPENDENT WOMEN ARE MOVING ACROSS. AND, ALSO, WOMEN WHO HAVE COLLEGE EDUCATION. THAT VOTE WENT FOR ROMNEY FOUR YEARS AGO. IT CERTAINLY IS GOING TO BE DEMOCRATIC THIS TIME AROUND.

>> Woodruff: AND NON-WHITE.

>> OH, DEFINITELY THE NON-WHITE VOTERS. AND THE MILLENNIALS ARE ALSO VERY STRONG.

>> Woodruff: WHITT WHAT, ABOUT DONALD TRUMP? WHERE IS HE DOING WELL AND WHERE IS HE STRUGGLING?

>> DONALD TRUMP HAS BASED HIS ENTIRE CAMPAIGN ON GETTING A HIGHER TURNOUT OF WHITES AND GETTING A LARGE PROPORTION OF WHITES. THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION SINCE 1996, THE PROPORTION OF WHITES HAS GONE DOWN BY TWO, THREE, OUR FOREPERCENTAGE POINT. THIS YEAR WILL PROBABLY BE ABOUT 70% WHITE AND 30% NON-WHITE. BUT TRYING TO WIN A NATIONAL ELECTION IN THIS ENVIRONMENT BY GETTING A LARGER AND LARGER SHARE OF A SMALLER AND SMALLER PROPORTION OF THE ELECTORATE IS A LOSING STRATEGIC PROPOSITION.

>> Woodruff: HAVING SAID THAT, PETER, YOU COME, AS WE SAID FROM CONDUCTING A FOCUS GROUP, UNDECIDED VOTERS?

>> LATE DECIDERS. SO THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO WAITED UNTIL AFTER THE CONVENTION AND HAVE NOW JUMPED IN, AND SOME OF THEM STILL REMAIN UNDECIDED. AND WHAT'S SO FASCINATING IS WE STARTED THE RACE WHERE PEOPLE WERE UNHAPPY WITH THE WORLD. THEY REMAIN UNHAPPY WITH THE WORLD, BUT THEY'RE MORE UNHAPPY WITH THE CANDIDATES. I MEAN, THEY LOOK AT ONE AS UNFIT AND THE OTHER AS UNTRUSTWORTHY. SO THESE POOR PEOPLE ARE REACHING THE END OF THE ROAD, AND ESSENTIALLY, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. THE INTERESTING THING IS THERE WERE THREE WOMEN IN THE GROUP, ALL OF WHOM SHOULD BE IN THE REPUBLICAN COLUMN, AND THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE THERE, BUT THEY JUST CANNOT STOMACH DONALD TRUMP. THEY DON'T FIND HIM AS ACCEPTABLE. THEY FIND HIM AS A BULLY. THEY FIND HIM AS A BABY. THEY JUST-- EVERYTHING ABOUT HIM BOTHERS THEM. SO THEY CAN'T BE WITH HIM.

>> Woodruff: SO, WHIT, HAVE WE SEEN ANYTHING-- HAVE YOU SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN YOUR YEARS OF POLLING?

>> WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE DONALD TRUMP BEFORE AND PROBABLY WON'T FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES. IT'S AMAZING, THOUGH, JUDY. TWO-THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE UNSATISFIED WITH THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY. THEY WANT A CHANGE. YOU WOULD THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE ABLE TO TAP INTO THAT SUCCESSFULLY, BUT HE HAS RUN HIS ENTIRE CAMPAIGN PREACHING TO THE CONVERTED, AND TRASHING EVERYONE ELSE. CONSEQUENTLY, HE BASICALLY IS ENDING THE CAMPAIGN RIGHT WHERE HE STARTED IT-- SOMEWHERE IN THE LOW 40s. AND SO A GENERAL ELECTION STRATEGY THAT INVOLVES REVVING UP YOUR OWN SUPPORTERS BUT NOT REACHING OUT IS NOT A SUCCESSFUL STRATEGY.

>> Woodruff: SO, PETER, BACK TO THIS QUESTION ABOUT WHERE THE RACE IS OVERALL, IS THERE A PATH TO VICTORY FOR DONALD TRUMP AT THIS POINT?

>> NO. AND I SAY THAT-- OBVIOUSLY, TURNOUT IS CRITICAL. AND AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE LESS ENTHUSIASTIC THAN THEY WERE IN 2008 AND 2012. HISPANICS ARE-- SEEM TO BE AS INTERESTED. MILLENNIALS, MUCH LESS INTERESTED. SO I THINK BARACK OBAMA BECOMES THE KEY TO THIS. HE HAS BEEN AN EXCEPTIONAL SURROGATE, AND ESSENTIALLY BRINGING ACROSS THOSE VOTERS. AND I THINK MECHELLE OBAMA HAS BECOME SORT OF THE MORAL CENTER OF THIS CAMPAIGN, AND THERE'S NOBODY THAT WE HAVE FOUND THAT IS MORE POPULAR. SO I ACTUALLY THINK THE OBAMAS BECOME THE LEGACY AND THE REASON THAT HILLARY CLINTON CAN WIN.

>> Woodruff: WHIT, WHAT DO YOU SEE? DO YOU SEE THERE'S A PATH OF SOME KIND FOR DONALD TRUMP?

>> IT WOULD BE LIKE DRAWING AN INSIDE STRAIGHT. HE WOULD HAVE TO WIN EVERY SINGLE SWING STATE THAT'S REMOTELY CLOSE RIGHT NOW, AND THAT'S A VERY, VERY HIGH HILL TO CLIMB WITH LESS THAN TWO WEEKS TO GO.

>> Woodruff: WHIT, YOU WERE ALSO TELLING US SOMETHING THAT STRIKES BUT THIS ELECTION YEAR IS THE SEPARATION BETWEEN WHAT YOU CALL THE TRUMP BRAND AND THE REPUBLICAN BRAND. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> THERE'S A DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TRUMP BRAND AND THE REPUBLICAN BRAND, IN PART, BECAUSE TRUMP IS NOT REALLY A REPUBLICAN. WHAT THAT MEANS FOR DOWN-BALLOT RACES IS--

>> Woodruff: THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE.

>> YEAH, THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE, IS THAT A LOT OF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES ARE RUNNING WELL AHEAD OF DONALD TRUMP, EVEN IN THESE SWING STATES, CANDIDATES LIKE ROB PORTMAN IN OHIO, MARCO RUBIO IN FLORIDA, CHUCK GRASSLEY IN IOWA, JOHN McCAIN IN ARIZONA ARE, ALL RUNNING WELL AHEAD OF TRUMP. AND THAT IS THE HOPE THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY DO WELL IN CONGRESSIONAL AND SENATE RACES. IT BEARS MENTIONING THAT WHEN BOB DOLE LOST TO BILL CLINTON IN 1996 BY 8.5 POINTS, REPUBLICANS PICKED UP TWO SENATE SEATS. SO IT'S NOT UNHEARD OF.

>> Woodruff: PETER, HOW DO YOU SEE THESE SENATE RACES GOING?

>> WELL, I THINK THE SENATE IS THE REPUBLICAN-- THE REPUBLICANS ARE HAVING A VERY DIFFICULT TIME BECAUSE THEY HAVE SO MANY SEATS UP, AND THE MENTIONED THAT WHIT MADE ARE IMPORTANT. BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO GO TO A DIFFERENT SIDE OF IT. YOU LOOK AT SO MANY OF THESE STATE, WHETHER IT IS PENNSYLVANIA OR NEW HAMPSHIRE OR EVEN NORTH CAROLINA AND WISCONSIN, AND ILLINOIS, ALL OF THOSE SEATS ARE GOING TO BE DEMOCRATIC SEE THE, IN PART BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE THE COATTAILS OF HILLARY CLINTON, AND YOU CAN ADD MISSOURI THERE. SO I THINK THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO HAVE THE MAJORITY. I THINK SOMEWHERE IN 51 TO 52 SEATS, THAT WOULD BE MY TAKE.

>> I'M NOT WILLING TO CONCEDE ALL THOSE SEATS TODAY, PETER. I THINK A LOT OF THEM ARE VERY CLOSE. I THINK REPUBLICANS ARE RUNNING VERY GOOD CAMPAIGNS FOR THE SENATE IN THOSE-- IN THOSE STATES. AND I AM NOT GIVING UP HOPE THAT REPUBLICANS CAN HOLD ON TO BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

>> UNDERLINE "HOPE."

>> Woodruff: WE'RE GOING TO HAVE YOU BOTH BACK AFTER THE ELECTION AND LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. PETER HART, WHIT AYRES, THANK YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU. I ENJOYED BEING WITH YOU.

>> Woodruff: ANOTHER BIG NUMBERS FOCUS DURING THIS ELECTION HAS BEEN ON MONEY: HOW THE CANDIDATES HAVE RAISED AND SPENT IT, AND WHAT THAT SAYS ABOUT THEIR CAMPAIGNS. MATEA GOLD COVERS MONEY AND INFLUENCE FOR THE "WASHINGTON POST," AND SHE JOINS US NOW. MATEA, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM. SO TELL US WHAT, DO WE KNOW AT THIS POINT ABOUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP AND HILLARY CLINTON, HOW MUCH THEY'VE RAISED AND HOW MUCH THEY'VE SPENT.

>> SO, WHAT'S REMARKABLE IS THAT HILLARY CLINTON HAS RAISED MORE THAN DOUBLE DONALD TRUMP AND HER CAMPAIGN COMMITTEE, NEARLY $500 MILLION TO HIS $219 MILLION. SO SHE IS BY DEFAULT ALSO VASTLY OUTSPENDING HIM. IN THE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER, SHE PLOWED $95 MILLION INTO HER CAMPAIGN EFFORT. $66 MILLION OF THAT WENT INTO TELEVISION ADS ALONE. DONALD TRUMP SPENT A THIRD OF THAT ON TELEVISION ADS AS HE'S TRYING TO REALLY BUILD UP HIS VOTER FILE. WE SAW A LOT OF MONEY GOING INTO GETTING VOTER DATA, BUT REALLY HE IS GETTING OUT-FLANKED BY CLINTON ON THE MONEY RACE IN EVERY REGARD.

>> Woodruff: WHAT ELSE CAN YOU TELL US, MATEA, ON WHAT THEY'RE SPENDING MONEYO-- STAFF ORGANIZATION, GET OUT THE VOTE?

>> WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS IF YOU LOOK AT THE CAMPAIGN SPENDING STRATEGY, YOU SEE THE INFRASTRUCTURE THEY'VE INVESTED IN. CLINTON, FOR EXAMPLE, HAD 815 STAFFERS ON HER PAYROLL AT THE END OF SEPTEMBER. THAT'S COMPARED TO 168 STAFFERS THAT TRUMP HAD ON HIS PAYROLL. AND WHAT YOU SEE IN THERE IS THE INVESTMENT THAT CLINTON IS MAKING IN A GROUND GAME. SHE HAS STAFFERS DEPLOYED ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN AN EFFORT TO TURN OUT THE VOTE. TRUMP, ON THE OTHER HAND, IT LEANING MUCH MORE HEAVILY ON THE R.N.C. TO PROVIDE THAT VOTER MOBILIZATION EFFORT.

>> Woodruff: NOW, MATEA, YOU WERE TELLING US, IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK AT HOW MUCH DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF IS PUTTING INTO HIS CAMPAIGN. WHAT DO YOU SEE IN THAT REGARD?

>> WHAT'S BEEN VERY CURIOUS IS THAT TRUMP CONTINUES TO INSIST THAT HE'S PUTTING $100 MILLION, IF NOT MORE, INTO HIS CAMPAIGN OF HIS OWN PERSONAL FUNDS. AS OF NOW, WE'VE ONLY SEEN $56 MILLION. THAT'S A LARGE SUM, BUT, OBVIOUSLY, NOT CLOSE TO $100 MILLION. HE HAS A VERY SHORT REMAINING WINDOW OF TIME TO PUT IN THE REMAINING $44 MILLION, AND WE'LL SEE IF THAT ACTUALLY COMES TO BE.

>> Woodruff: AND WHAT ABOUT IN TERMS OF REIMBURSING HIMSELF, THE CAMPAIGN? HOW DOES THAT WORK AND HOW TYPICAL IS THAT?

>> SO THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN HAS USE AID LOT OF TRUMP PRESENTS, AS HE HAS BEEN MAKING HIS BID FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. THEY'VE HAD EVENTS AT TRUMP HOTELS. THEY HAD THEIR CAMPAIGN HEADQUARTERS IN TRUMP TOWER. AND UNDER THE LAW, HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO LET THOSE COMPANIES DONATE THOSE SERVICES. SO HE DOES HAVE TO REIMBURSE THEM FOR IT. HIS DECISION TO USE TRUMP COMPANIES IN THE PURSUIT OF HIS CAMPAIGN, MEANS THAT HE'S ALSO PUTTING A LOT OF MONEY BACK INTO HIS OWN COMPANIES, MORE THAN $9 MILLION TO DATE, INCLUDING $1 MILLION IN REIMBURSEMENTS LAST MONTH. THE MAJORITY OF THAT MONEY HAS GONE TO REIMBURSE TAG AIR, WHICH IS HIS PRIVATE AIRLINE.

>> Woodruff: NOW, MATEA, YOU ALSO WROTE THIS WEEK THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS DECIDED SOME DAYS AGO TO STOP HOLDING BIG-DOLLAR FUND-RAISING EVENTS FOR HIMSELF AND THE G.O.P. WHY DO THAT?

>> SO, IT IS TYPICAL AT THIS POINT FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES TO GET OFF THE MONEY CIRCUIT AND JUST STICK TO CAMPAIGN EVENTS AND RALLIES. BUT WHAT'S UNUSUAL IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN DID NOT SET UP A SCHEDULE OF FUND-RAISING EVENTS FOR SURROGATES TO CONTINUE TO BRING IN HIGH-DOLLAR CONATIONS TO SUPPORT PARTY IN THESE FINAL DAYS. CLINTON HAS 41 EVENTS SCHEDULED ON THE BOOKS BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER 3. THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN NOW SAYS THEY HAVE A HAND FULL OF WANTS. THEY MIGHT DO MORE AD HOC EVENTS. THEY TOOK A DIFFERENT APPROACH. THEY HAD THEY WERE RAISING A LOT OF MONEY ONLINE, SOME OF WHICH WILL GO TO THE PARTLY, BUT THE MAJORITY OF HIS EFFORT IS ON MAKING HIS CASE TO VOTERS.

>> Woodruff: FINALLY, MATEA, YOU WERE TALKING TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU'VE NOTED IN TERMS OF HOW CLINTON IS RAISING BIG SUMS OF MONEY FROM GROUPS THAT WERE, FRANKLY, UNABLE TO GIVE MONEY BY THAT FAMOUS SUPREME COURT DECISION, "CITIZENS UNITED."

>> RIGHT. ONE THING THAT IS SUCH A DRAMATIC STORYLINE IN THE MONEY RACE I THINK THIS YEAR IS THE FULL EMBRACE BY CLINTON OF SUPER PACS, WHICH WERE REALLY ENTITIES WHICH PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS VERY RELUCTANT TO SUPPORT AND USE TO HIS RE-ELECTION ADVANTAGE. BUT BY CONTRAST, CLINTON, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF HER RACE, MADE IT CLEAR THAT SHE WANTED DONORS TO SUPPORT THESE GROUPS. BECAUSE OF THAT, SHE'S BEEN ABLE TO RAISE, IN CONJUNCTION WITH SUPER PACS AND THE PARTY, $1.1 BILLION IN PURSUIT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> Woodruff: AND FINALLY, YOU SAID YOU WERE SURPRISED THE DEMOCRATS HAVE RAISED AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY HAVE THIS CYCLE.

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK ANYONE WOULD HAVE PREDICTED WHEN THE CYCLE STARTED THAT DEMOCRATS WOULD WIN AT THE MONEY RACE. BUT WE HAVE SEEN THAT THE SUPER PACS THAT HAVE FORPD TO SUPPORT TRUMP HAVE NOT BEEN VERY WELL ORGANIZED. THEY'VE GOTTEN CONFLICTING MESSAGES FROM THE CAMPAIGN, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, DONORS HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT, UNTIL RECENTLY, TO WRITE BIG CHECKS. BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS WERE SO ORGANIZED ON THE BIG-MONEY FRONT, THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO COLLECT LARGE CHECKS FROM THE RY BEGINNING OF THIS RACE, AND NOW THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES TO USE THAT MONEY IN THE FINAL

>> Woodruff: A REMARKABLE SET OF STORIES. NOBODY FOLLOWS THIS AS CLOSELY AS YOU DO. MATEA GOLD FROM THE "WASHINGTON POST." THANK YOU.

>> THANKS, JUDY.

>> Sreenivasan: MORE THAN EVER BEFORE, A BIG PART OF THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN HAS PLAYED ITSELF OUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA. NO DOUBT THE CANDIDATES AND THEIR CAMPAIGNS HAVE TRIED TO TAE ADVANTAGE OF THESE PLATFORMS. BUT THERE'S BEEN A MUCH BIGGER ROLE THIS YEAR AS WELL FOR UNSEEN PLAYERS. YOU MIGHT CALL IT THE RISE OF THE BOTS. MILES O'BRIEN HAS THE STORY, PART OF OUR WEEKLY REPORTING ABOUT ON THE "LEADING EDGE" OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

>> DONALD SUPPORTED THE INVASION OF IRAQ.

>> WRONG.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY--

>> WRONG.

>> PROVED OVER AND OVER AGAIN--

>> WRONG.

>> Reporter: MUCH AS WE MAY WISH OTHERWISE, THE RACE FOR THE OVAL OFFICE IS NOT OVER. BUT THERE IS ALREADY ONE CLEAR WINNER, BY ACCLAMATION: TWITTER. THANKS TO A CANDIDATE WHO PREFERS CAMPAIGNING IN 140 CHARACTER SPURTS, THE SOCIAL NETWORKING PLATFORM HAS BECOME AN ESSENTIAL POLITICAL FORUM. WHAT COULD GO WRONG WITH THAT? PLENTY. TWEETERS BEWARE!

>> BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THE OPINIONS THAT WE FORM AND THE INFORMATION THAT WE DIGEST COMES FROM SOCIAL NETWORKS AND SOCIAL MEDIA, IT IS POSSIBLE TO TRY AND MANIPULATE THE NETWORK TO CONTROL OPINIONS.

>> Reporter: FILIPPO MENCZER IS DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR COMPLEX NETWORKS AND SYSTEMS AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY. HE SAYS THE JUNCTION OF THE POLITICAL AND COMPUTER SCIENCES IS A DANGEROUS PLACE FOR DEMOCRACY.

>> JUST LIKE PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO INFLUENCE ELECTIONS FOREVER WITHOUT SOCIAL MEDIA, WHY WOULDN'T THEY ALSO TRY WITH SOCIAL MEDIA? JUST LIKE ANY OTHER TOOL AND TECHNOLOGY, IT CAN BE USED FOR GOOD THINGS AND IT CAN ALSO BE MANIPULATED OR ABUSED.

>> Reporter: MENCZER AND HIS TEAM ARE RESEARCHING THE SHADOWY WORLD OF BOTS; SOFTWARE PROGRAMMED TO MIMIC HUMANS AND ENGAGE WITH THEM. YOU PROBABLY ENCOUNTER BOTS ALL TE TIME...

>> WHAT'S MY DAY LOOK LIKE?

>> NOT BAD. ONLY TWO MEETINGS TODAY.

>> Reporter: WHETHER IT'S APPLE'S SIRI...

>> ALEXA, PLAY ROCK MUSIC. ♪ ♪

>> Reporter: AMAZON'S ALEXA...

>> ALEXA, STOP!

>> Reporter: ...OR THE CHAT BOX THAT POPS UP, OFFERING ADVICE WHEN YOUR CABLE TV IS ON THE FRITZ. A GOOD ONE IS HARD TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM A REAL PERSON. AND THAT'S THE TROUBLE. CLEVER BOTS, EMPLOYED IN A STEALTHY, STRATEGIC MANNER, CAN PUT A VIRTUAL FINGER ON THE SCALE OF POLITICAL DISCOURSE. BOTS GENERATED A HUGE VOLUME OF TWEETS-- PRO AND CON-- DURING THE BREXIT VOTE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM. THEY ALSO PROMOTED CANDIDATES IN THE 2014 INDIA ELECTIONS. ISIS USES BOTS TO AMPLIFY PROPAGANDA BY CREATING THOUSANDS OF PHONY ACCOUNTS.

>> IT'S VERY EASY TO CREATE ONE OR TEN OR 100 OR 1,000 ACCOUNTS CONTROLLED BY THAT CAMPAIGN AND MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THESE ARE JUST REGULAR PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPRESSING THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

>> Reporter: BOTS FIRST REARED THEIR UGLY HEADS IN U.S. PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS IN 2012-- MITT ROMNEY GOT CAUGHT BUYING BOTS WHEN HE GAINED MORE THAN 140,000 FOLLOWERS IN TWO DAYS. FOR A FEW DOLLARS, ANYONE CAN BUY A FEW THOUSAND BOTS THAT CAN BE DEPLOYED TO STRENGTHEN YOUR TWITTER PROWESS. BUT THIS GO-ROUND, THE BOTS ARE DOING MUCH MORE THAN PROVIDING ARTIFICIAL POPULARITY. PHIL HOWARD IS A PROFESSOR OF THE INTERNET AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY.

>> YOU PROGRAM THE BOTS THAT ARE FOLLOWING YOU TO REPEAT YOUR MESSAGE, AND WHAT HAPPENS IS, IS THAT A LARGER AND LARGER NUMBER OF PEOPLE SEE THE RETWEETS AND THINK, "THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POSITION PAPER" OR "THIS IS A GREAT NEW IDEA".

>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TAKING OUT ISIS, BUT YOU WERE THERE AND YOU WERE SECRETARY OF STATE WHEN IT WAS A LITTLE INFANT...

>> Reporter: HOWARD ANALYZED TWEETS DURING THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE. HE FOUND BOTS WERE BEHIND ONE- FIFTH OF PRO-CLINTON TWITTER TRAFFIC, AND NEARLY ONE-THIRD OF PRO-TRUMP TWEETS.

>> THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THAT NOT ALL USERS CAN TELL WHEN THE CONTENT THAT COMES UP IN THEIR SOCIAL MEDIA FEED IS ACTUALLY GENERATED BY THESE BOTS. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT THE OVERALL IMPACT IS ON PUBLIC OPINION, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT MOST AMERICANS CAN'T DISTINGUISH THESE BOTS FROM REAL USERS.

>> Reporter: IT'S HARD ENOUGH FOR COMPUTER SCIENTISTS-- AND FOR THAT MATTER, TWITTER ITSELF. THE COMPANY ADMITS MORE THAN 8.5% OF ITS ACCOUNTS ARE UPDATED WITH NO DISCERNABLE HUMAN ACTION. BUT THAT INCLUDES USEFUL APPLICATIONS LIKE TWEETDECK AS WELL AS HARMFUL BOTS. FINDING THEM IS A CHALLENGE. MENCZER AND HIS TEAM ARE WORKING ON THIS. THEY VISUALIZE TWITTER TRAFFIC-- HELPING THEM FIND ACCOUNTS THAT LOOK AND ACT SUSPICIOUSLY NON- HUMAN.

>> VERY OFTEN THERE ARE PATTERNS THAT WE CAN STILL DISCERN. THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY EASY FOR THE HUMAN EYE, BUT SOMETIMES A MACHINE LEARNING ALGORITHMS BY LOOKING AT OVER 1,000 FEATURES, THEY CAN RECOGNIZE SOME PATTERNS THAT MAKE ONE PARTICULAR ACCOUNT SIMILAR TO OTHER BOTS.

>> Reporter: THE RESULT IS A WEBSITE CALLED "BOTORNOT," WHICH ANALYZES TWITTER ACCOUNTS BASED ON THE FREQUENCY OF TWEETS, THE TYPES OF NETWORKS AND FRIENDS, AND THE SENTIMENT THE TWEETS CONVEY. THIS TWITTERBOT ACCOUNT SIMPLY REPEATS PRO-HILLARY REDDIT POSTINGS. BOTORNOT PREDICTS IT IS 70% LIKELY TO BE A BOT.

>> ONE OF THE FUN THINGS ABOUT STUDYING BOTS IS THAT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT BASED ON THE CODE ALONE TO PREDICT WHAT THEY'LL DO. AND EVEN DESIGNERS CAN'T ALWAYS PREDICT WHAT A BOT WILL DO.

>> Reporter: BRAD HAYES CAN ATTEST TO THAT. HE IS A POSTDOCTORAL ASSOCIATE AT M.I.T. HE READ A "BOSTON GLOBE" ARTICLE THAT CONCLUDED DONALD TRUMP SPEAKS AT THE LEVEL OF A FOURTH GRADER. TO HIM IT SOUNDED LIKE GOOD GRIST FOR SOME TWITTER BOT FUN.

>> I WENT TO WORK AND I CREATED THIS BOT, AND I WENT THROUGH AND GRABBED ALL OF THE TRANSCRIPTS I COULD FIND FROM HIS SPEECHES, THE REPUBLICAN DEBATES, FROM HIS TWITTER FEED, BASICALLY ANYTHING, ANY KIND OF DONALD TRUMP INFORMATION, THINGS THAT HE HAS SAID, SUCH THAT I COULD TRAIN THE STATISTICAL MODEL ON THAT.

>> Reporter: HIS BOT, DEEPDRUMPF, DOESN'T UNDERSTAND LANGUAGE PER SE, BUT RATHER DETECTS PATTERNS IN THE SEQUENCE OF LETTERS.

>> A LOT OF THINGS ARE GOING ON FOLKS, A LOT OF THINGS...

>> Reporter: BY ANALYZING REAMS OF TRUMP SPEECHES, IT CAN MAKE STATISTICALLY VALID-- AND FREQUENTLY HUMOROUS-- PREDICTIONS OF HOW THE REAL DONALD TRUMP MIGHT COMPLETE SENTENCES THAT BRAD BEGINS.

>> I'M A GREAT JUDGE OF THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE TO CONTROL EVERYBODY AND LET THEM FIGHT EACH OTHER. THEY WON'T REFUSE ME. I WILL MAKE A FORTUNE.

>> Reporter: WHAT'S YOUR BEST TWEET?

>> IF I DON'T WIN IN THE END I'LL FIRE THE ENTIRE AMERICAN PEOPLE. WE CANNOT ACHIEVE PEACE IF I DON'T WANT IT.

>> Reporter: DOES IT KIND OF SURPRISE YOU AT TIMES WHAT COMES OUT?

>> ABSOLUTELY. AS A COMPUTER SCIENTIST, ONE OF THE MOST SURPRISING THINGS IS THAT SUCH A SIMPLE MODEL CAN CREATE SUCH GREAT RESULTS.

>> Reporter: WHICH IS WHY HE DOES NOT LET HIS BOT TWEET WITHOUT HUMAN SUPERVISION. DEEPDRUMPF IS ALL IN GOOD FUN AND CLEARLY LABELED A BOT. BUT TWEETER BEWARE OF THE MORE NEFARIOUS BOTS THAT LURK OUT THERE IN THE TWITTERVERSE. WHAT MAY SEEM LIKE A VIRAL GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT CAN BE NOTHING MORE THAN AN EMPTY FIELD COVERED WITH ASTROTURF. SO TAKE A MOMENT TO CHECK, BEFORE YOU RETWEET. MILES O'BRIEN, THE PBS NEWSHOUR, BOSTON.

>> Woodruff: STAY WITH US. COMING UP ON THE NEWSHOUR: WHERE ECONOMIC WORRIES MEET WHITE NATIONALISM; AND THE FIRST AMERICAN AUTHOR TO WIN THE ESTEEMED MAN BOOKER PRIZE.

>> Sreenivasan: BUT FIRST, THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT TODAY TRIED TO DEFUSE A BURGEONING CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING SOLDIERS' PAY. THE PENTAGON FACED A MOUNTING OUTCRY FOR TRYING TO RECOUP ENLISTMENT BONUSES FROM THOUSANDS OF CALIFORNIA NATIONAL GUARD MEMBERS. BUT DEFENSE SECRETARY ASH CARTER INTERRUPTED A VISIT TODAY TO NATO HEADQUARTERS IN BRUSSELS, TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE:

>> I'VE ORDERED THE SUSPENSION OF ALL EFFORTS TO COLLECT REIMBURSEMENT FROM AFFECTED CALIFORNIA GUARD MEMBERS, AND THAT SUSPENSION WILL CONTINUE UNTIL I'M SATISFIED THAT OUR PROCESS IS WORKING.

>> Sreenivasan: OVER THE WEEKEND, THE "LOS ANGELES TIMES" REPORTED CALIFORNIA GUARD SOLDIERS ARE BEING ASKED TO REPAY BONUSES OF $15,000 OR MORE. THE PAYMENTS WERE AN EFFORT TO MEET ENLISTMENT GOALS DURING THE WARS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. THEY WERE INTENDED FOR SOLDIERS WITH SKILLS IN HIGH DEMAND, BUT RECRUITERS DOLED THEM OUT IMPROPERLY. SOME OF THE SOLDIERS SAY IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT.

>> I HAD DONE EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAD ASKED OF ME. THESE WERE PROMISES THAT WERE MADE.

>> Sreenivasan: THE PUSH TO TAKE BACK THE BONUS MONEY HAS ALSO DRAWN ANGRY REACTIONS FROM CONGRESS. SECRETARY CARTER SAYS HE WANTS ALL THE CASES RESOLVED BY JULY 1. WE TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THIS NOW, WITH "LOS ANGELES TIMES" REPORTER DAVID CLOUD, WHO BROKE THIS STORY; AND SERGEANT FIRST CLASS ROBERT RICHMOND-- HE RE-ENLISTED IN THE CALIFORNIA NATIONAL GUARD IN 2006 AND RECEIVED A $15,000 BONUS, BUT THEN WAS TOLD HE NEEDED TO PAY THE MONEY BACK. DAVID, WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IN TERMS OF WHAT THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE SAID TODAY? WHAT DOES HIS ORDER DO?

>> WELL, HIS ORDER HALTS RECRUITMENT OF ALL OF THESE CASES RIGHT NOW, AND SETS UP A PROCESS TO ESSENTIALLY SPEED UP THE APPEALS PROCESS THAT MANY SOLDIERS HAVE GONE THROUGH AND HAVE-- YOU KNOW, IN A VERY FRUSTRATING WAY, YOU KNOW, GONE THROUGH YEARS OF EFFORTS TO TRY TO GET THIS RECRUITMENT STOPPED. THE PENTAGON IS SETTING UP A PROCESS TO SPEED UP THOSE APPEALS.

>> Sreenivasan: HOW DID WE GET HERE? HOW DID WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE HE HAD TO SAY, "STOP THIS?"

>> IT'S A LONG TALE THAT REALLY BEGAN IN 2006 WHEN THE GUARD AND THE ARMY AS A WHOAM NEEDED TROOPS TO GO TO IRAQ, AND TO AFGHANISTAN. SO THEY STARTED PAYING LARGE BONUSES, AND THEY STARTED PAYING WITHOUT A LOT OF CONTROLS. AND IN FACT, THERE WAS A FAIR AMOUNT OF FRAUD IN WHAT WAS DONE. SOLDIERS DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT-- MOST SOLDIERS DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT. THEY TOOK THE MONEY IN GOOD FAITH, COMPLETED THEIR ENLISTMENTS AND A DECADE LATER GET A BILL FROM THE PENTAGON OR THE NATIONAL GUARD SAYING, "YOU YOU'VE GOT TO PAY US THIS MONEY BACK." A LOT OF THEM ARE JUSTIFIABLE SHOCKED.

>> Sreenivasan: ROBERT RICHMOND YOU WERE ONE OF THOSE SOLDIERS WHO HAD THIS HAPPEN TO THEM. HOW MUCH DID THIS MONEY MEAN TO YOU WHEN YOU GOT IT? AND MORE IMPORTANT, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU WHEN YOU WERE REQUESTED TO RETURN IT?

>> FOR ME PERSONALLY THE MONEY MEANT SOMETHING. FOR OTHER SOLDIERS, BECAUSE I'M JUST ONE OF MANY, IT MEANT THE WORLD. THESE OTHER SOLDIERS, THEY RELIED ON THAT BONUS SOLELY FOR THIS. FOR ME, I PARTIALLY RELIED ON IT. I HAD CHOICES TO GO INTO THE CIVILIAN SECTOR WHERE I COULD EARN A LOT MORE MONEY, EVEN WORKING AS AN ADVISER IN A CIVILIAN CAPACITY. BUT I ASKED IF I WAS ELIGIBLE FOR A BONUS. THEY SAID I WAS ELIGIBLE TO $15,000 FOR SIX YEARS. I KNEW IN FACT THAT ENLISTMENT WOULD SEND ME BACK TO IRAQ. HOWEVER, IT WAS ENOUGH, AND WITH THE CAMARADERIE OF BEING WITH MY UNIT, IT WAS ENOUGH FOR ME TO MAKE THE DECISION TO GO AHEAD AND ENLIST FOR ANOTHER SIX YEARS. WHEN THEY CAME BACK 10 YEARS-- YOU KNOW, NINE YEARS LATER, ACTUALLY, AND SAID I HAD TO PAY THIS MONEY BACK, WAS IN SHOCK. IN AWE. THE MORE IT WENT ON I JUST FELT BETRAYED. IT LACKED EMPATHY. I FELT LIKE I WAS SOME SORT OF A CRIMINAL AND THEY'RE GOING TO GIVE IT BACK RIGHT NOW OR THEY WERE GOING TO RUIN MY LIFE FINANCIALLY, TURNING ME IN. IT WAS VERY THREATENING.

>> Sreenivasan: DAVID YOU SAID THE GOVERNMENT ALREADY RECUPID $22 MILLION. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WHO REPAID SUMS OF MONEY THAT PERHAPS SHOULD NOT HAVE.

>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL BE DIFFICULT TO UNTANGLE. THERE IS SOLDIERS I KNOW, ONE IN PARTICULAR, WHO OWED $46,000, AND TO PAY THAT OFF, HE AND HIS FAMILY, REFINANCED THEIR HOME. SO THEY TOOK STEPS THAT COST THEM NONE PAY OFF THE MONEY. TO NOW GO BACK AND MAKE THEM WHOLE WILL NOT BE AN EASY TASK. BUT IT'S ONE THAT I THINK THE PENTAGON WILL LOOK AT. I MEAN, THIS HAS GENERATED SO MUCH OUTRAGE IN CONGRESS AND SO MUCH ATTENTION, THAT I THINK PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, DID TAKE THE STEPS TO PAY THE MONEY BACK, EVEN THINKING THAT THEY DIDN'T REALLY OWE IT, WILL IN SOME SENSE BE MADE WHOLE. I'M NOT SURE THEY'LL BE MADE TOTALLY WHOLE BUT THEY WILL GET SOME MONEY BACK.

>> Sreenivasan: ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE STORY SAID,"GO AHEAD, FINE, TAKE THE MONEY BACK, BUT GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK, TOO." WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE YOU?

>> IT CERTAINLY WON'T MAKE ME WHOLE. YOU KNOW, WHAT I DID IN THE MILITARY AND WHAT I DID-- YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED TO ME, I SIGNED A CONTRACT.

>> DID THAT, THAT'S FINE. IF YOU GAVE ME MY $15,000 BONUS BACK, THAT WOULD HARDLY MAKE ME WHOLE. WITH WHAT THEY DID TO ME THEY, RUINED MY CREDIT. THEY RUINED MY FINANCES. I HAVE SO MANY FINANCIAL LOSSES AS A RESULT. I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GROUP. THERE ARE SOLDIERS OIT THERE THAT HAVE PROBABLY SUFFERED SO BAD FINANCIALLY AND EMOTIONALLY THAT THEY'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO RECOVER JUST BY GIVING THEM THEIR MONEY BACK. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE.

>> Sreenivasan: DAVID, THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME AGREEMENT RIGHT NOW IN CONGRESS TO SAY THIS IS HORRIBLE. BY COINCIDENCE, THERE'S AN ELECTION TWO WEEKS OUT. AND PART OF YOUR REPORTING SHOWED CONGRESS WAS NOTIFIED ABOUT THIS A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

>> YEAH. THAT'S AN INTERESTING PART OF THE STORY. I MEAN, WHEN THE STORY BROKE ON SATURDAY, YOU KNOW, IN THE DAYS AFTER, YOU HAD A LOT OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS PUTTING OUT PRESS RELEASES, EXPRESSING A LOT OF OUTRAGE ABOUT IT, SAYING SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE. AS THE STORY CAME OUT TTURNED ON THE THE CALIFORNIA GUARD HAD GONE TO MEMBERS OF THE CALIFORNIA DELEGATION TWO YEARS EARLIER AND ASKED THEM TOPAZ A PROVISION THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED ALLAY SOME OF THESE CASES. THE PROVISION WAS NOT PASSED AT THE TIME. SEVERAL MEMBERS DID INITIALLY PROPOSE IT. IT WAS DROPPED BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE COST MONEY. AND THIS WAS A TIME WHEN SEQUESTRATION, ACROSS-THE-BOARD CUTS IN THE MILITARY BUDGET WERE HAPPENING. THERE WAS JUST A RESISTANCE TO DOING THAT SORT OF THING. SO NOTHING HAPPENED UNTIL IT APPEARED IN OUR NEWSPAPER.

>> Sreenivasan: ROBERT, YOU SET UP A PETITION ONLINE, AND I'M ASSUMING EVEN BEFORE, THAT YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING TO AND HEARING FROM OTHER SOLDIERS. GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW WIDESPREAD THIS IS. WE ARE FOCUSING ON CALIFORNIA RIGHT NOW, BUT THERE ARE NATIONAL GUARD MEMBERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. WHEN I FIRST RECEIVED MY LETTER, I HONESTLY, THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE. AND WHEN I WAS CALLING PEOPLE AND ASKING QUESTIONS, I CAME TO FIND OUT THERE WERE NEARLY 17,000 SOLDIERS AFFECTED, WAS THE FIRST NUMBER I HEARD. THEN I HEARD IT WAS 16,000 IN CALIFORNIA AND AT LEAST 1,000 NATIONWIDE. RECENTLY, BY DOING MY PETITION, PEOPLE WRITE TO ME ALL THE TIME BECAUSE I HAVE MY CONTACT INFORMATION IN THERE. I RECENTLY WAS REACHED OUT TO BY SOMEBODY FROM THE ACTUAL NAVY WHO IS HAVING THE SAME ISSUES.

>> Sreenivasan: ALL RIGHT, SERGEANT FIR CLASS ROBERT RICHMOND, AND DAVID CLOUD OF THE "LOS ANGELES TIMES." THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Woodruff: THE NUMBER OF WHITE NATIONALIST GROUPS HAS SURGED IN THE UNITED STATES. EXPERTS SAY THEY'VE BEEN ENERGIZED BY THE DIVISIVE RHETORIC OF THIS YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THE NEWSHOUR'S P.J. TOBIA MET WITH THE LEADERS OF ONE WHITE NATIONALIST GROUP AND PRODUCED THIS REPORT. AND A WARNING-- SOME MAY FIND THE IMAGERY AND SYMBOLS IN THIS STORY DISTURBING.

>> Reporter: LATE SUMMER, IN THE HILLS OF EAST TENNESSEE, A SMALL GROUP OF WHITE POWER ACTIVISTS HOLD A MEETING. THERE'S MERCHANDISE, MUSIC-- ♪ NOW THEY MAY CALL YOU RACIST AND PARANOID ♪

>> Reporter: AND A REWRITING OF HISTORY.

>> DESPITE THE MYTHOLOGY, RUSSIAN JEWS WERE NEVER OPPRESSED IN ANY WAY.

>> Reporter: LATER, THE GROUP GOES TO A NEARBY TOWN FOR A RALLY. IN THE CENTER OF IT ALL, MATTHEW HEIMBACH:

>> ...A WHITE HOMELAND SHALL BE OUR HOMELAND!

>> Reporter: JUST 25 YEARS OLD, THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER HAS CALLED HEIMBACH THE FACE OF A NEW GENERATION OF WHITE NATIONALISTS. IN 2015, HE FOUNDED THE TRADITIONALIST WORKER PARTY. THEY'RE WHITE SEPARATISTS, WHO WANT DISTINCT HOMELANDS IN THE U.S. FOR WHITES AND BLACKS. THEY WANT JEWS OUT OF THE COUNTRY ENTIRELY. ARE YOU GUYS RACISTS?

>> THE DEFINITION OF RACIST IS THROWN AROUND ALL THE TIME IN AMERICA, AND IT'S USED ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY JUST TO DETERMINE ANY WHITE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO BE ABLE TO ADVOCATE FOR THEIR BEST INTEREST.

>> Reporter: BUT THERE WERE NAZIS AND, YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF VERY STRIDENT ANTI-MINORITY PROPAGANDA, SYMBOLISM. ANYONE WITH A NAZI PATCH IS GOING TO BE CONSIDERED, TO ALMOST EVERY AMERICAN, AS A RACIST.

>> AND SO, OUR MOVEMENT IS MOVING TOWARDS BEING A EUROPEAN STYLE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT. AND I RESPECT ALL MY COMRADES FROM DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS. THEY MIGHT TAKE A LITTLE DIFFERENT PRESENTATION THAN WE DO-- YOU CAN SEE WHAT DIRECTION OUR MOVEMENT IS MOVING IN. AND I'M HAPPY TO BE A PART OF THAT.

>> Reporter: THIS ELECTION SEASON, HAIMBACH IS SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP. IN MARCH, HE WAS CAUGHT ON TAPE SHOVING A YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN AS SHE WAS BEING ESCORTED OUT OF A TRUMP RALLY. WHEN HE'S NOT ON THE ROAD, PREACHING WHITE NATIONALISM, HEMBACH LIVES HERE, THE SOUTHERN INDIANA TOWN OF PAOLI, JUST STEPS FROM THE TOWN SQUARE. HEIMBACH MOVED HIS FAMILY TO THIS TWO-ACRE PLOT. MATT PARROT-- HEIMBACH'S FRIEND AND CO-FOUNDER OF THE TRADITIONALIST WORKER PARTY-- BOUGHT THE LAND IN A BANK REPOSSESSION. A HANDFUL OF HEIMBACH'S OTHER FOLLOWERS HAVE JOINED THEM. THEIR PLAN? TO BUILD A COMMUNITY OF LIKE-MINDED SEPARATISTS, IN THIS RURAL ENCLAVE. FROM THE K.K.K. TO SKINHEADS, WHITE POWER GROUPS ARE NOTHING NEW IN AMERICA. BUT IN RECENT YEARS, THEIR NUMBERS HAVE GROWN, DRAWING DISSAFFECTED WHITES WHO FEEL MARGINALIZED IN AMERICA 2016. HEIMBACH SEES OVERLAP BETWEEN TRUMP'S MESSAGE AND WHITE NATIONALIST IDEOLOGY.

>> HE HAS SHOWN US THE MAJORITY OF EVERYDAY AMERICANS SUPPORT OUR SORT OF MESSAGE. THEY'RE TIRED OF GLOBALISM, THEY'RE TIRED OF RAMPANT CAPITALISM, THEY'RE TIRED OF WALL STREET BEING PUT FIRST, INSTEAD OF MAIN STREET.

>> Reporter: AT 34, MATT PARROT IS ONE OF THE OLDER MEMBERS OF HEIMBACH'S GROUP. HE'S LIVED IN PAOLI MOST OF HIS LIFE. HE GAVE ME A TOUR.

>> EVERYTHING'S WINDING UP AND CLOSING DOWN. ALL THROUGH HERE, YOU SEE BUSINESS FOR SALE, BUSINESS FOR SALE, UP THERE, THAT BUSINESS IS ALSO FOR SALE. WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, LIKE EVERYBODY'S DAD WORKED IN A FACTORY, AND YOU'D HAVE THE STAY AT HOME MOM. AND NOW BOTH MOM AND DAD ARE WORKING SOME CRAPPY SERVICE JOB THAT DOESN'T PAY BENEFITS, OFTENTIMES THAT'S JUST PART TIME.

>> Reporter: HE BLAMES THIS DECLINE ON GLOBAL TRADE POLICIES. USING A COMMON ANTI-SEMITIC TROPE, HE BLAMES ONE GROUP IN PARTICULAR.

>> THE GLOBALIST TRADE AND THINGS LIKE THAT ARE LARGELY DUE TO THE GLOBAL JEWISH ECONOMIC AND BANKING INTERESTS.

>> Reporter: PARROT SAYS THAT ALL OF THIS HAS FUELED BOTH WHITE NATIONALISM AND SUPPORT FOR TRUMP.

>> HE TAPS INTO A DEEP SENSE OF FOREBODING IN WHITE AMERICA.

>> Reporter: HEIMBACH SAYS THIS FOREBODING COMES FROM NEW ATTITUDES IN AMERICA. CHIEF AMONG HIS COMPLAINTS, THE INCREASING CULTURAL CURRENCY OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT AND THE NOTION OF WHITE PRIVILEGE.

>> I WOULD DARE ANYONE TO GO INTO THE HOLLERS OF WEST VIRGINIA OR TO KENTUCKY, OR THE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN DESTROYED BY GLOBALISM AROUND THIS COUNTRY, WHERE THE COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN TORN APART, AND LOOK IN THE EYES OF WHITE, WORKING-CLASS MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, AND TELL THEM THAT THEY HAVE ANY POWER IN THIS SYSTEM WHATSOEVER.

>> ECONOMIC ANXIETIES PLAY INTO IT. I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S MORE HYPED THAN REAL.

>> Reporter: CAROL ANDERSON IS A PROFESSOR AT EMORY UNIVERSITY AND THE AUTHOR OF "WHITE RAGE: THE UNSPOKEN TRUTH OF OUR RACIAL DIVIDE."

>> OH, IT'S RACE. IT IS RACISM. PURE, UNABASHED, UNADULTERATED-- AS I SAY, U.S.D.A. GRADE A PRIME BEEF RACISM. RACE IS FRAMING THIS DISCUSSION EVEN WHEN IT SEEMS CLOAKED IN LANGUAGE SUCH AS "LAW AND ORDER" OR "STOP AND FRISK." THAT'S RACE.

>> Reporter: RACE, COMBINED WITH FEAR.

>> WHEN WE'RE SEEING THE RISE OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A FEAR IN AMERICA THAT THIS AMERICA IS BECOMING VASTLY MORE MULTI- CULTURAL, VASTLY MORE DIVERSE. IT LEADS US TO A QUESTION ABOUT WHAT WILL RESOURCES OF THIS NATION BE? AS THEY HAVE TO BECOME MORE EQUITABLY SHARED AND DISTRIBUTED BASED ON MERIT, AND NOT SKIN COLOR.

>> Reporter: THIS IS NOT JUST AN AMERICAN PHENOMENON. WHITE NATIONALIST GROUPS HAVE SURGED IN EUROPE. HEIMBACH FREQUENTLY MEETS WITH THE LEADERS OF EUROPEAN NATIONALIST GROUPS LIKE GREECE'S GOLDEN DAWN AND THE NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN GERMANY. THEY ALL WANT IMMIGRANTS KEPT OUT OF THEIR COUNTRIES.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT? YEAH, MAKE AMERICAN GREAT AGAIN, BUILD A WALL, KICK THESE PEOPLE OUT. THIS IS MY COUNTRY. THIS ALL BELONGS TO ME.

>> Reporter: TRUMP HAS EARNED THE ENDORSEMENT OF A NUMBER OF PROMINENT RACISTS. FORMER KU KLUX KLAN GRAND WIZARD DAVID DUKE MENTIONED TRUMP IN HIS ANNOUNCEMENT OF A SENATE RUN IN LOUISIANA.

>> I'M OVERJOYED TO SEE DONALD TRUMP AND MOST AMERICANS EMBRACE MOST OF THE ISSUES THAT I'VE CHAMPIONED FOR YEARS.

>> Reporter: IN THE RUN UP TO THE IOWA CAUCUS, WELL KNOWN WHITE POWER WRITER JARED TAYLOR RECORDED THIS ANTI-MUSLIM IMMIGRANT ROBOCALL THAT WENT OUT TO IOWA VOTERS:

>> WE DON'T NEED MUSLIMS. WE NEED SMART, WELL EDUCATED WHITE PEOPLE WHO WILL ASSIMILATE TO OUR CULTURE. VOTE TRUMP.

>> Reporter: HARD STATISTICS ON WHITE NATIONALIST GROUPS ARE DIFFICULT TO COME BY. BUT THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER SAYS THE NUMBER OF HATE GROUPS IN THE U.S. INCREASED BY 14% LAST YEAR. A RECENT REPORT BY THE ANTI- DEFAMATION LEAGUE SAID THAT ANTI-SEMITIC TWITTER ATTACKS ON JOURNALISTS SPIKED EARLY THIS YEAR. WORDS LIKE "TRUMP," "NATIONALIST" AND "WHITE" APPEARED FREQUENTLY IN THE BIOS OF USERS PUBLISHING THE TWEETS. WHITE POWER WEBSITE STORMFRONT SEES A 30% TO 40% INCREASE IN TRAFFIC WHEN TRUMP MAKES NEWS ON IMMIGRATION OR MUSLIMS, ACCORDING TO AN INTERVIEW WITH THE SITE'S OWNER. CRITICS CHARGE THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN SLOW TO REJECT THE EMBRACE OF ALT-RIGHT GROUPS AND RACISTS, INCLUDING DAVID DUKE'S ENDORSEMENT. THEY ALSO SAY TRUMP HAS ECHOED THE LANGUAGE USED BY GROUPS LIKE HAIMBACH'S.

>> THIS ELECTION WILL DETERMINE WHETHER WE ARE A FREE NATION OR WHETHER WE HAVE ONLY THE ILLUSION OF DEMOCRACY, BUT ARE IN FACT CONTROLLED BY A SMALL HANDFUL OF GLOBAL SPECIAL INTERESTS RIGGING THE SYSTEM-- AND OUR SYSTEM IS RIGGED. ANYONE WHO CHALLENGES THEIR CONTROL IS DEEMED A SEXIST, A RACIST, A XENOPHOBE, AND MORALLY DEFORMED.

>> Reporter: THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN DECLINED TO COMMENT FOR THIS STORY. HEIMBACH AND HIS FOLLOWERS SAY TRUMP'S RHETORIC STOPS SHORT OF THEIR ETHNIC IDEOLOGY. EVEN IF THE CANDIDATE LOSES, THEY THINK THIS CAMPAIGN HAS OPENED THE DOOR FOR WHAT THEY HOPE WILL BE A WIDER FOLLOWING.

>> IT'S ABOUT THESE IDEAS OF NATIONALISM, NOT GLOBALISM; THAT'S WHAT WE'RE BUILDING TOWARDS, AND DONALD TRUMP IS JUST INTRODUCING THOSE IDEAS TO A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE. BUT WE WERE HERE BEFORE, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE HERE AFTER.

>> Reporter: P.J. TOBIA, PBS NEWSHOUR, IN SOUTHERN INDIANA.

>> Woodruff: ON THE NEWSHOUR ONLINE RIGHT NOW, GENE

>> Sreenivasan: FINALLY TONIGHT, A VERY DIFFERENT LOOK AT RACE, AND A FIRST IN THE WORLD OF BOOKS: AN AMERICAN HAS WON THE PRESTIGIOUS MAN BOOKER PRIZE. THE HONOR WAS ORIGINALLY ESTABLISHED FOR BRITISH COMMONWEALTH AND IRISH WRITERS. BUT THREE YEARS AGO, ALL ENGLISH-LANGUAGE AUTHORS BECAME ELIGIBLE. AND LAST NIGHT, PAUL BEATTY BECAME THE FIRST AMERICAN WINNER, FOR HIS NOVEL "THE SELLOUT," A BITING SATIRE OF RACE IN THIS COUNTRY, IN WHICH A BLACK MAN DECIDES TO RE-SEGREGATE HIS HOME TOWN. JEFFREY BROWN SPOKE WITH PAUL BEATTY WHEN THE BOOK CAME OUT LAST YEAR. HERE'S ANOTHER LOOK.

>> Brown: PAUL BEATTY, WELCOME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Brown: THIS IS A SOLO SKEWERING. HUMOR OF RACIAL POLITICS. WHAT SET YOU OFF? WHAT ARE YOU RESPONDING TO?

>> I'M JUST KIND OF RESPONDING TO MYSELF, I GUESS. IT'S NOT LIKE THERE IS SOME IMPETUS THAT I HAVE TO WRITE ABOUT THAT. IT'S JUST STUFF THAT I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME. I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT SEGREGATION FOR SOME REASON. I THINK I HAD READ SOMETHING ABOUT SOMEBODY SAYING, "OH, BLACK PEOPLE ARE BETTER OFF UNDER SEGREGATION," AND I JUST WENT, THAT WOULD BE SO FUN TO TRY TO SEE HOW SEGREGATION WOULD WORK NOW IN A WEIRD KIND OF GUY.

>> Brown: SO YOUR NAMELESS CHARACTER, YOUNG BACK MAN, HE TRIES TO RE-SEGREGATE HIS CITY, IN A SENSE.

>> YEAH.

>> Brown: STRANGELY ENOUGH. HE DOESN'T KNOW HE'S DOING THAT AND THAT THE CITY IS ALREADY SEGREGATED.

>> Brown: IT IS SEGREGATED.

>> IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> Brown: AS IS MUCH OF OUR LIFE TODAY.

>> EXACTLY. IT'S INTERESTING IN THE BOOK HOW ACKNOWLEDGING THAT YOU'RE BEING SEGREGATED CHANGES YOUR BEHAVIOR A BIT.

>> Brown: BUT IT ALLOWS YOU TO LOOK AT EVERY BLACK PIETY, AT EVERY LIBERAL PIETY. I MEAN, IT'S EASY IN A WAY TO SKEWER OUT AND OUT RACISM.

>> YEAH.

>> Brown: YOU GET IT IN EVERYBODY.

>> I'M NOT VERY PIOUS ABOUT EVERYTHING, FORTUNATELY, BUT I'M SKEWERING MYSELF FIRST. I'M SKEWERING THINGS I CARE ABOUT AND THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO ME AND THEN MY OWN FOIBLES. FOR ME, IT'S STUFF I'M THINKING ABOUT, LIKE THE ABSURDITIES AND THE WAY WE TALK ABOUT RACE, CLASS, CULTURE, EDUCATION.

>> Brown: WHAT ABSURDITIES? WHAT DO WE GET WRONG?

>> THERE'S NO RIGHT. WE THINK THERE IS THIS WEIRD UTOPIAN END GAME TO LIFE, NOT JUST RACIAL POLITICS. FOR ME IT'S A WEIRD WAY TO TRY TO LIVE LIFE. AND IT'S NOT TO SAY WE SHOULDN'T ASPIRE TO THOSE THINGS. BUT-- SO THE THING I HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT LATELY IS SOME PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY, OH, IT'S HARD TO TALK ABOUT RACE, WE CAN'T HAVE THE DISCUSSION. I'M, LIKE, WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN? I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT DISCUSSION IS AND WHERE THIS METAPHORICAL TABLE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO COME TO THE TABLE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE TABLES ARE. SO I GET TO SET MY OWN TABLE A BIT.

>> Brown: AT THE SAME TIME, THOUGH, THESE ARE VERY SERIOUS ISSUES. IN YOUR BOOK, THE NARRATOR'S FATHER WAS SHOT BY POLICE IN THE AREA AROUND LOS ANGELES AND THAT'S VERY REAL STUFF.

>> YEAH.

>> Brown: YOUR APPROACH IS COMPLETELY THROUGH HUMOR.

>> THROUGH HUMOR AND MY OWN EXPERIENCE. SO THE SHOOTING IS SOMETHING THAT'S SORT OF PERSONAL TO ME. IT WASN'T LIKE, OH, PEOPLE ARE GETTING SHOT, LET ME WRITE ABOUT THAT. I'M STARTING FROM MYSELF, NOT CURRENT EVENTS OR THE NEWS OR "TIME MAGAZINE" SIDE BAR ABOUT THIS STUFF.

>> Brown: ARE WE TOO SQUEAMISH? ONE OF THE PROBLEMS I HAVE IN QUOTING THE BOOK IS YOUR VERY LIBERAL USE OF THE "N" WORD.

>> YEAH.

>> Brown: WE ISN'T SIT HERE AND READ IT OR QUOE FROM IT TOO MUCH ARE. ARE WE TOO SQUEAMISH? ARE WE JUST NOT TALKING--

>> I THINK IT'S WHEN I USED TO READ POETRY, PEOPLE WOULD BRING ME INTO A HIGH SCHOOL TO READ AND I WOULD SAY THE "F" WORD AND THEY WOULD ACT LIKE THEY NEVER HEARD IT AND THEY'RE SAYING IT FIVE MINUTES LATER. SO THERE'S A LINE BETWEEN PROPRIETY AND HOW WE REALLY SPEAK AND REALLY THINK AND I'M JUST TRYING TO HAVE FUN WITH THAT STUFF. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WORD (BLEEP), AND I CAN'T SAY THE "N" WORD BECAUSE IT'S JUST SO RIDICULOUS. BUT THERE IS PART OF THE BOOK WHERE THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT MARK TWAIN AND HIS BOOKS AND WHERE THE "N" WORD IS THROUGHOUT. WHAT PURPOSE IS THAT SERVING TO TAKE THAT OUT?

>> Brown: IS THAT SATIRE? I JUST TRY TO GET WHAT'S IN MY HEAD ON THE PAGE. THAT PART IS HARD TO DO. IT TAKES A LONG, LONG TIME TO MAKE IT POETIC. AND I HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF AN AGENDA. THAT PART IS HARD TO PULL OFF. THE BOOK IS ABOUT A BIG SCOPE. IT'S ABOUT A TON OF THINGS. BECAUSE I SEE THESE THINGS AS ALL INTERRELATED AND INTERWOVEN IN A REAL WAY.

>> Brown: WHERE DOES YOUR LOVE OF WRITING COME FROM?

>> I COULDN'T TELL YOU. I CAN'T SAY THAT I LOVE WRITING BUT I LOVE THE SATISFACTION THAT IT GIVES ME. IT'S REALLY BASIC. I'M GLAD I FOUND IT LATE IN LIFE AND I'M GLAD I FOUND IT AT ALL.

>> Brown: THE NEW NOVEL IS "THE SELLOUT." PAUL BEATTY, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Woodruff: ON THE NEWSHOUR ONLINE RIGHT NOW, GENE DETECTIVES ARE PUTTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT WHEN IT COMES TO WHERE, WHEN AND HOW THE H.I.V. VIRUS EPIDEMIC BEGAN IN THE UNITED STATES. YOU CAN FIND THAT AND MORE ON OUR WEBSITE, www.pbs.org/newshour.

>> Sreenivasan: TUNE IN LATER TONIGHT ON CHARLIE ROSE: A RARE CONVERSATION WITH TWO SITTING SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, RUTH BADER GINSBURG AND SONIA SOTOMAYOR. AND THAT'S THE NEWSHOUR FOR TONIGHT. I'M HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> Woodruff: AND I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. JOIN US ONLINE, AND AGAIN HERE TOMORROW EVENING. FOR ALL OF US AT THE PBS NEWSHOUR, THANK YOU, AND GOOD NIGHT.

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