1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-14; Part 3 of 6

the pause button well mr mitchell and green in fact i think that's one reason mr mitchell agreed to run the campaign because the new mr holden would be his chief david a contact at the white house it i disagree with that statement that's been bandied about i know i don't agree with that there's a possibility and one group of people in another group a scapegoat for this i can't i don't think so i don't see any evidence of that specific type of activity obviously everyone now is basically on his own and then consequently yeah it's difficult to say anything is the court made a concerted effort this time i'll i would think most individuals are operating independently of each other this time

and in most cases those involved or that if i i've come for the unspoken you voluntarily or involuntarily one man stands out he has remained silent visibility was it i have no idea he's out of her voice reveals he has the voters are pretty under appeal and he does speaking out in your testimony and discuss the executive clemency family and expenses was just the league promised an inning my assumption is that he would promise what all the others were what were they promise i don't know i only know what i was talking about relating also promised well as i indicated before i talk about salary taking

care of the family legal costs potential executive clemency assistance in getting a job and so on that type of thing is we oversee testimony over the stage long as a very important country that he was a liaison between the committee and the white house on the other hand was this old woman it's a huge receive any indication that the list of strong and fight convey those memos and messages that you have been sending he's got a method of working with this trial and obama well because i've seen some of the documents and that was he would do a summary sheet capsule i've seen activities of the campaign i don't know how often he did it but it was a mistake for them of the condensed much of the information that we would get this just right that was his typical method of dealing with mr haldeman course he could get you more information directly and i

gather he actually sent him back a preacher when he thought it was appropriate the jury's even if the bottom of the allman indicating that he had in fact received these rebels will sir you spoke up a conversation with mr charles colson and federal march of nineteen seventy two in which mr carlson version due to approve of the lack of hama namely plants were an existence at that time my balancer was only one plan that continually was revised downward so there's no question that the which plans to close most profitable and even though that context i would assume that that's greg a lot of the plaintiffs are you as an outlet to make it clear he was doing other minor projects in the intelligence gathering feel they were basically minor nicholas was the

prime minister we received testimony which indicated that you made early morning call to a key biscayne right up to receive the news of the break cam like a witness testified that he made the call for in the morning that's the only discussion i had with cuba's games on sunday with this problem i talked to the white house in washington that day on saturday night i four in the morning the somber sunday what my my wife is here and i think she could testify were both in bed we know we are at a vast sunday morning we were at a fund rate by celebrity dinner and it was laid back late i don't recall talking to key biscayne at that time of the morning you've just five that mr

morton that's the libyan that were just very comfortable i was told that serious why weren't so you're not aware of the conversation i wasn't i was in california the timeshare and he was literally reasons that the nsa conversations witness to climate change when he appeared before a grand jury but the prosecutor asked you about business loans custom all interview requests of the view that the persians so yes sir we had a lengthy discussion with mr silbert mr campbell i think that over that question and i think they agree with me and still do that there was a difference of opinion he was in certain he had certain fixed opinions

on that situation i think related more to personal matters and you weren't lying richard belzer not about my discussions with is just wow why didn't they ask you this on the trial and certain wine they asked me the prosecutor which question about your suggested mr sloan that impression so i don't think that was relevant to the case and that was on the document that time that case had nothing to do with the official i have something to do with the watergate you'd have to ask the prosecutors wanted at nasa question i can see no relevance to a disagreement as to what exactly was said between <unk> i think as a senator has to follow up ian last week indicated there was still a difference in that they had agreed with my interpretation of that discussion like to discuss your discussions with mr hall and when

you have one on top all the biscayne any others on the weather gets sellers know until a general discussion of and we met them with mr mitchell and in april and then i had a couple of phone conversations with his assistant one idea to just to let you know that i had decided because i got retain independent counsel and i went to cooperate and cooperate in certain people would be able to go when you discussed this month in january i presume that you almost the allman they're the new ballpark i think that i think my name to this center was set to just indicated there were a number of people involved and casey people's memory was growing short i hope you realize that it was not myself or any other single individual who was involved in this cover

yourselves were you surprised when the president announced that we have decided to begin an investigation on march twenty four years ago my aunt was a surprise visit mr deans well i could well imagine that the president possibly have had been informed incorrectly of that since he was i asked johnny weir the correct activities you expect that most all meant to communicate with a president injured on that matter service i didn't expect i was talking mainly to usually <unk> border was taken care of correctly after the inaugural and to discuss my own employment situation i didn't expect him to discuss my discussion necessarily with a president unless he felt was

appropriate i'm going to go to the president as the senior writer at the white house but you didn't discuss the watergate and the problem is yes but i did it for the purpose of explaining the total context of the cover up and the watergate when you listen to grow video testimonials going to have indicated that there were several who knew about the cover up searches was to the rumors and that show was doing and i believe used to lawyers and others i

think i i said wow mr dean you about the cover ups yes sir mr mitchell you about the cover of us are just a hole in the new about the cover directly after my knowledge only a generation i did not know the reckless development you bob kolker i did not ever known is to combine i only by the pope mr gray so i had no direct knowledge of mr rosenthal mr traub yes he was aware of the country does through the us role of history

i can't ask this is that we're calling to recognize that i would have known that he knew about the schools i had no direct knowledge of it of course of course i don't think he'd do directly about the current i think we have some problems that we were taking care of mysteries and no heat all the employees of the committee who were not on the cover i purposely we made a substantive decision in the sense to be sure that they were not aware of the cover up so that they themselves would not become involved in any problems relating to the stance only the discussion i had in june with mistress dance which would indicate some knowledge after that point just so

yes i'm sure you must have poured all lead to the extent that he is testifying that he assisted me for what he thought legitimate reason mr oh dallas are finally did not list the more again i know mr moore was aware that trip to retrieve what mr morgan who later i did i guess i don't know what we're talking about is to my knowledge no the peace bell as the senators take their lunch break the more remote graders explosive

testimony we're also going to stop the tape and take a short break our cells public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after this fall for station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs a public broadcasting service well yes and that continues its coverage of hearings by the

senate select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer as we enter the third hour of testimony is now senator why christian and asked the questions the present life but it's big twenty thousand dollars lee yes sir i received a request from the white house to dispose of twenty thousand dollars to at a columnist and writer who had been writing were designed for them for either for the

white house or in relationship to a book he was writing and i requested and twenty thousand dollars they gave it to the writer and who was running i understand that you're asking for the trustee's the uk twenty thousand dollars in cash to mr nicholas listen now would you tell immediately touched on this morning what mr dean told you after after your august sixteenth grand jury appearance via the next day that i would not be indicted you have any indication as to by understanding it was official sources officials did you know

vida white house over the us attorneys endure injury no no i do not a matter of fact at least in relation to us attorneys' it i got the impression that they are the russians who are in constant question of who from yesterday you know you indicating that whether there was any influence my imagination for mr dean wasn't that no influence over us but lending evidently the us attorneys decided not to indict me after the august sixteen grand jury appearance and they transmitted that the professionals getting evidently was notified that fact

join the us record was receiving information from the internal security division at the justice department i i don't think i knew that before i read in the papers that i couldn't be that wouldn't it be sure about that singular effect he did receive information that he passed on us at times which i think now is in recollecting probably came from that the strong group before we want to work with all us from a white house now the early morning and this'll be a matter of a transcript which i've not had not going to rely on my repertoire in setting the stage of personality top

level you indicated mr mitchell strongly is on too long and i thought you said mr haldeman as liaison mr holland was the official the senior white house official who dealt directly and was responsible for the direct dealings with our committee was his aide indicated at her legwork relation of this week and then what the new indicator of course you're just where you report to matters to a strong which you can alter her i think that i did this morning with all documents on all activity that we invaded by fire agreement with mr mitchell mr holland went directly to <unk> for mr pollan rule or whatever action libby

chile is right i try to walk through a particular series of events or referred to hear testimony this morning are the conversations you heard true that the first conversation you had with mr strollo about the lighting project was after january twenty seven to me to my recollection that would've been after because i cannot recall discussing in any detail only project with mr libby until he presented it to mr mitchell were any discussions within his

distraught about the fact that mr libby was going to do intelligence work for us before that day but not after the specifics of his proposals and i saw it for the first time about it did you discuss the forest elephants are not going into in great definition if you're going to hit me when you and again to me that there might have been discussions with mr strong about that type of a project which was specifically presented to you in january twenty seventeen no i simply meant sure we discuss yesterday's intelligence gathering role but but since i didn't know the specifics of this project that must've been in general terms that january twenty seven meeting you did report the details of that meeting which related specifically to getting into the democratic headquarters putting the center and also rather

unusual figures i said excuse me sir at the first meeting we did not discusses our economy targets isis do the generals go and i was reported was just wrong now we come and there weren't affording that this meeting specific targets discusses that and what targets let's get out i'm elliott democratic national committee headquarters in washington which was to be their headquarters of the convention potential democratic candidates' headquarters in the subject of the publisher of the las vegas they came up with the orders yes sir i've mentioned and this is the so called economy version of the january twenty seven meeting a stripped down than five hundred thousand dollars

and you wanted the details of his distraught yes they're in that case i do have this proposal on a blank sheet of paper and as i recollect sent them over to the restaurant and boatloads of that meeting and the possibility of maybe yes you have automatically have the budget you know and nonwhites the twentieth greece is much stronger seated on the phillies the head of when in fact we want to leave our yes there are and he persuaded true not object to mr libby's and time again not to object his presence on

screen and he would be intelligence operations i think persuaded to strong word he talked to me mr dean talked to me this rule and i've talked to the general opinion from their standpoint and i don't agree with it was that it would be best to let him continue the intelligence work but the specific request via or specific reason for continuing mr libya now as visibility we get into the fight now on upon your return from a meeting at the state and oil which meeting as i understand it was helpful

with john mitchell on us and kate wells of the federal government on match yes sir as simply the project had been approved the idea to have been fifty thousand dollars level and what what the targets were and what we are what plant would be in which he had already course been aware of and again if you could just indicate what those plans were they were too why can't the democratic national headquarters specifically mr o'brien to possibly if it was appropriate if we had the funds to consider the fumbled her which was to be their headquarters of the convention also be a headquarters for patients and the government and the democratic presidential candidates headquarters at that time and you're just going to

colleagues i would not remember when i did that or not senator i typically would have destroyed property values completely pauses to constantly answer now after memorial day incident i haven't in my notes human form has drawn the only have made a successful entry into the democratic national reporter for us for a while anything else in that conversation strong i'm not sure if that wasn't because of that we have no we have no food to their labors by collectives know no one want to fester of microbiology correct that there are other times in between here where you were you had

conversations with mr strong relative to these activities and we know that the senator but because there was nothing specific about them i don't recollect her to make sure that you are either in unison no during the first two weeks of june you must've contacted strong role of gemstones are the correct answer and it's obviously it must have been considered important to the extent where nothing was sent to the white house volume customers are strong come down in committee yesterday would you mind telling me is is that why you felt that was well the best way to do these were a lot of wiretapped conversations about things

for univision you know they are going back and said senator mccain accepted against umpire would always automatically sent over by messenger mr straub oh this is the only document i can recall that we got two sets of gemstone documents that i did not stand over by messenger simply because i thought they were of a sensitive nature decides to sensitive to send even by messenger so your transmission of this material was mental transmission of invisible transition those i corrected i call him an indicated that i had a rude they're for his brutal but i would keep them in mile an affinity for more nasa and the look of them yes we can

return to what i know or injuries i just want to ask once again as to whether or not there are any other contacts between you and gordon strong prior to the break you feel as committees you know i recall anything specific and i think probably have been a time mr mitchell indicated mr libby's dissatisfaction i think that i wouldn't normally as a matter of course indicated to coordinate that we had hoped that mr libby would do a better job on his next go around something that effect but it i don't recollect that specifically would you say that ms

on the evening of june six on the intelligence operations of the material and the president is has anyone within the campaign organization yes sir now on june seventeen did you call cortisol yes i call them saturday afternoon at some point and was the nature of the conversation unsettling to alert him to the breaking given the details of what we were doing that in los angeles are protecting mr mitchell statement nothing more of a discussion of what happened when you say getting the details what details revealing of your los angeles

murder and i don't think it's been reported by that time for mr olmert mr mclaurin been arrested and that is at the point where i call her mr scott we had a record rise of course earlier for mr levy but it became more official on any efforts to release and have not been successful so we knew that he would be in jail and then and it was at that point that i called was a high degree of concern on our part and i am part of that concern is that was on his part and the mahdi militia as an evening news has some fifty three hundred i think was found in the defendant's possession and we had hoped that it was a democratic money not our money but at that time it was not known as to whose money was present until monday when i talked to mr sloan to pass by

yes sir yes sir when i did you take that question and you think he was referring to what happened as it related to the particular events the arrests were you feel that this was a what happened to relatives or the whole operation reason why mr hoagland us to question what that those are you know we went you know i was not a

review troy i was trying to find out from scratch with a worker idol i didn't say that i was not surprising to tell me about your reactions i was not surprisingly called me it was a difficult conversation that i had any ties with an astronomer was very short to the point he asked what had happened i told him that the best of our knowledge shares what statement we going i don't think we've got the statement that it hadn't been released to the present at that time i explained what we were trying to do he explained his concern someone in and specifically myself get back to washington and get cool live the situation and get the details and make sure that things were handled correctly rude it as much npr's access senator as in any other senses that point

what did you tell him what did you tell him during the course that conversation that you did not kill gordon strong the night before i am i don't think there was any difference in my conversation other than no difference in that the conversation or simply factual description of what happened why do you feel that in the hall and have to go ahead and call or if in fact you're given a complete description of the incident and is just wrong and certainly insofar all of background material of concern that if you make the assumption that this had been transmitted through the hall i didn't make that assumption i i did not know what the background material i think mr altman called me because of the serious nature of the bubble and that this was something he wanted directly and relate to me on and be sure that we were taking measures to handle a situation

he would call me and call me periodically during the campaign about various subjects he felt were important to you or did you operate from the presumption when you were talking to mr hall that he knew what was that a difficult question to answer i have to assume that since i'd communicated completely when there's just not that these communications were more but that is an assumption on my part no time until january that i had any idea and in fact in the gender in media missed call them and indicated me that he did not have any knowledge of the break in previous to that so of course i assume that simply because i had been

working with his assistant but that is an assumption i'm purely that the reason why i mention those forces that the executive session of the committee you can get right here matt going out for that we are straining too much of that we just heard thank you over thirty who has to generate twenty seven year veteran of four in march the twentieth year march thirtieth year for memorial day a meeting within the first two weeks of pain

and we've indicated that was just wrong in this operation well there is no question in your mind all those who want to call mattel i think the camaraderie and the sequester issue is of critical importance and rather than dealing threw his eighty one to deal directly with me and mr mitchell in this case as to the action being taken so we dealt directly with me in this he did this in numerous times in the campaign fortune unfiltered give the background or on the floor that he didn't ask her background as i recall that you did you about what did you assume that yes i'm not and i emphasize the word assume at this point in time not strictly on the basis of experience experience

that you had with a strong experienced it was natural on my part to assume that with somebody else mr harrison generally and with the money question in the strolling with all in same concern over the money in his own well a yemeni fifty three well i think the first sign that workers are too concerned mr mccourt obviously having that employer cars and secondly the money money was raised after april seventh and was not reported it was a direct violation of a new campaign to sell there were an end could be traced back to recreate to commit so i think there were two concerns over the two initial concerns of people like disgust and

also the january nineteen seventy three not like there's a question here i might correct and gathering from your taxable but you never spoke to withdraw in june eighteen nineteen seventy two to january of nineteen seventy three no that is not her i spoke with him on numerous occasions that with him on numerous occasions that not ever discussed watergate case in a substitute teacher we talk about it i can recall once or twice talking about it as a problem but not as a year not in the same sense more experience handling it from the campaign standpoint in relation to charges made by senator mcgovern world or whatever well now in your conversation in june eighteenth little his last instruction to use to get back to washington when us

and again the things we need yes sir well i got that touch with mistrial after the monday night well i talked to sichuan on monday night it was in washington and the courts have generally monday night and have tried to strike the gemstones while i related those facts to this straw not to destroy them that's it matters relating to campaign there was no real discussion between yourself and after all as to the break in at the watergate between june eighteenth in january of seventy three to be very specific mr allman well i worked with him when i look within and later when i work for mr mitchell is i work strictly through gordon's fun in this case or

one of his assistants only when he called me that i respond to it i cannot even recall any time that i've i initiated a call girl our except in a genuine meaning when i requested an interview with him to go over the employment situation in january nineteen seventy three the main purpose of this meeting is jobs well you know cheese this was a question i asked on this discussion on his part stated policy the administration was no individual become a watergate there are probably mention as members of the

place and i got an audition for the issue of dollars off can you give me any indication as to why this general policy was accepted in your case i didn't know that was a general policy center will is the nature of the nature of the discussion was basically a they had to consider sending up to the senate for confirmation for one or two jobs require senate confirmation here during that discussion he and i agreed that at this time at that time it would be inappropriate to go through that process we both agreed to that and so as an interim measure we agreed to a position it turned out to be a director of policy development commerce department which happen to be a level four job that did not require senate confirmation

we didn't discuss i don't think that job at that time we discuss the prospects of that kind of a job as an interim measure until we're good situation had been completely settled you win your concern about it was the other way around senator i initiated a discussion on the subject of the watergate because of what i considered to be a beginning memory difficulties on the part of some of the participants that i thought could have particularly relating to my own personal situation and you really didn't have that time in general the situation as the watergate as what was going on your participation yes and it was pretty clear that time also in relations to puerto rico's it was said he was having difficulty with a personnel department at the white house and i want to be sure i'm strolling

understood how important this those days before her before or after the trial was before the trial before an inauguration sometime early in january after the first of the year so that mr paul newman before that our reporters and was being human yes that would be correct and he knew that my statements of the well after the trial her dreams committed i think senator might be more appropriate in other words i had to make a statement until a trial and the trial fascinating to find different

versions of it i had not justified yes at our dream was going because it was going to be committed in the course didn't know that it had been embedded into laughter but even though israel and england as i think i think that we are now on the march twenty nine meeting being in january guilt that meeting was that meeting was late january meeting i'm not sure if

i don't think that meeting was taped i think or subsequent meetings that i have with you mr haldeman ehrlichman and i gather meetings i've had with mr dean from that time and red tape and i don't have a transcript so i don't specifically know which meetings were or were not paid for march twenty nine meeting and should i know that was great you know i don't know i think it's the year of the prosecutors or strollers wire and i'm just not sure i do know those were the center of this committee has just take i don't know about possibly this committee has a state senator it i do know the tapes that have been produced in disgust and depositions the german army

frustration it's being the polls but are under subpoena that development has given us or somebody else and one was a telephone call with mr hager yes and one was the meeting with mr altman mr mitchell i think it's accurate we don't we do not so

we have we also have a special prosecutor over here mm hmm go to the periphery

and i'm in the river illegal activity lawyer relations are feeling the youths even before the committee real enemy or at

least i can only speak for myself so that i think that next letter words that is the republican in the white house i don't know follow the constitution of the united states the american people would you say at this level all those things were pretty well i have been with us as bruno you've been voyager i

can get in your testimony this maybe in our graduate for hours and get a book written by a liberal wilkes the nineteen thirteen sixty years ago i think two quotations from the local people in oral and therefore i read at one hundred live in chapter six let that be law they can shine unpatriotic man is what our government again on the right place i substitute whale of the room of gaudy as it processes of common council those of private arranged in order to do this a first of necessity is still late in line as people have a right

to know about in the first place is necessary to open up all the processes of our party they have been to say going too complicated to around the bob evans says too much of the private conference is and he could understand and then on page on their pain if theres nothing to congeal if it's a game if it's a game then why not come out in the open and played in a field to find that hasn't been taking the appropriate light a problem for which we are confronted i would agree with you at

officials deny the series is even planning on execution on the cover i think the american people will miss on what this committee is concerned that whoa whoa people in the door is he really is the crimes that were committed and this morning as i understand it he was somewhat the day of you name names class places the substantial number of the issue here no one in government of the united states and friendly responsible you really cram it all montanans aren't

all that was at that time director elect president laid a prominent hawk in planning execution and tim cover up of these matters in a recent events unfold known as a warning that yes sir you also reaffirmed this committee that missed the strong now who was the white house who is a man although a sunday or maybe that knowledge of music that that daily report you yes and matt dillon reports late into the one of the senator yet totally on all subjects the watergate only occurred on carry on they did have information concerning the war really before and activists are now to what extent was mr hall no involved in watergate

that either preplanning portion of that because i've indicated before senator to my knowledge to my dealings were all it was mr strahm at the white house and mr dean it i'm not the privileged to the conversations are memos that went between yesterday and astronomers to hold them or any other official at the white house twice i simply do not know my first discussion with mr haldeman real at this matter was the sunday after the great again i did not have any further discussions with them until january at which time we discussed it in relation to so it's very difficult for me to directly related to anything other than what i've already testified to send you have shown that sense of gong representative leon zon than a memorandum to that list of song i think i mentioned this morning the pharmacist can't use because i hadn't seen a number

of times not in specific reference to the working poor or simply am i don't know and that million cattle farm indicated the campaign committee is an example of agreed to do a direct mail campaign for the state the venture environment that cost of hundred thousand dollars he made my cat backup material which might have been a memo from one of our staff or he might lose his discretion but he did not say he always kept alive today john stanton president that two counselors one mr colson and the other thing mr colson special counsel of the president that was not legal position where is mr deans wrote was counsel to the president which was a legal position you testified this

morning davis and i'm a man planning the execution and the us are not what extent was missed the caution and all of my direct knowledge only to the telephone conversations with me and some references to his assistant we did not discuss specific warning wiretapping directly i did not with mr golson other than his admonition in the jeweler in effect get on the stick and get the only project approve so we can get information from mr rhyme or something to that effect testify here an immediate execution fourteen elevate yes yes sir now to what extent was the most mondays then attorney general and tomorrow's and i never had a discussion you have no personal knowledge of

his involvement in the crisis a memorandum so most are now to what extent then simple to my knowledge no extent before people before june seventeen other than as chairman finance committee and being aware of the texas first ones were being made on june twenty one that i think is on a saturday we did meet and discuss the watergate the problem with him and my best recollection is we didn't go into specifics of mr mitchell and i were involved but that simply that mr lilian was involved and we thought there were problems it would create a situation where mr stan would probably eventually have to terminate mr liddy and that there were problems with mr slone has to be about a bunny dealing with business now but he would assist us and what

was going on vacation and that when he came back in as dismantle to talk with him and try to work with us as to the amounts of funds that were dispersed mr lee did not right that they voted on a one hundred thousand have been dispersed in the earlier we thought it was much less than that an armenian and often even the planning execution the cover up as i think i mentioned other officials said saturday long ago we've already discussed yes mr riyadh have no desire for your group we have not been helpful name the years they saw in cross examination come to my best of my recollection i think we covered officials fairly comprehensive you testified as

law and discuss payments for your family and showering potential executive clemency in return for your silence and that is that you were a white house staffer says to the president for the select committee and the american people believe that you could count on receiving leave was from the administration and the administration have the ability and as i live and these promises in return for you reviews and implicates the face and by true well senate by this time of course i was aware of the fact that we were doing some of that activity already fb was both

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