1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-29; Part 2 of 4

it's b members of the house was names of the air but to date yet been able to tell us of the possibility of all that from cbs example i'm asking this because mr colson has gone ahead suggesting that the list you submitted were a socialist so the names listed where he was to call out

twenty were enemies and submit them this was again because it's receiving through mr heggie industry straw we want to nail it down in the morning or the minimum number that we can do something with it so we went through this big thing because i'm going through and checked go through his lips that's it you know it was pretty funny on the top i cannot

i cannot answer that because i think that it would realize that my mouth is that less enthusiasm for doing things like this just to be used it was just an exercise and that you weren't any personnel in an agency where the official using these lists jewell says some of the names

a relationship with jesus and in many ways and now finally when i got out he's

unintelligible and so on now using names in this instance that they were there but it was commenting on on that you know somebody who was close and there are several people the justice department and leave wait a minute that was an ugly situation

to be in and a member of the united states congress as there was subject to an internal revenue service although or surveillance by the fbi and the only i do not know my own knowledge of any artist any member exam season who else senator kennedy was the principal one when i'm outside the greatest amount of surveillance was conducted on senator kennedy and subsequently a politically embarrassing information was shocked when the fbi where the civilians were for political purposes the fbi didn't performances was performed directly by the white house

i don't know that's true so this was a surprise it's both or do you think of the sisters nelly and testify as to whether these lists were ever used for purposes describe in your memo

well i would say that the management and honestly committed volunteers that would be exceptional co scholars and those television commentator and the subject on public and senate candidate ms williams no as

jack to see of tax exemptions and tax that has to be removed from both charitable foundations the administration and these files are presently available in the white house i guess i believe that it would be in my thousand white house german members of these files made available so i don't

in this collection the new rules that is it a pickup i know oh yes

you're welcome my aunt the basement thank you yes i am

it is a mystery making copies communicate me i think it really really

is the final two years of massachusetts or so are placed on the surveillance was a zealot following i'm not to my knowledge it was a break in this i remember that i did not know i think that would seem to make produce an examination of saudi women who were also present during that chappaquiddick incident and americans investigations make them also i don't know

beethoven eleven is it ms bhatia no that is just a discussion until today he was going to be

i reported on which appeared and the charlotte observer bit of may seventeen nineteen seventy three and resist follows high officials in the north carolina republican party confirmed wednesday that h r bob haldeman of the time president nixon's chief of staff nate to attempt to get local party officials to dig up something just heard the blast of winter and we'll go into the sauce is commonplace to phone calls of former white house aide hiring again and ask them to delay the suggestion to state republican chairman five who is that mr dan of the end the president is present in the eleven states

he was i really do are you respected a bit no recollection i'm out of any effort to get any information on and the chairman we know

that they wouldn't have this on their mortgage and the man imagines meeting at the last minute speech be prepared to counter offensive the rhyme that's right was the subject of two special treatment i

have one member suggested that he has been subject to special treatment or other members of that specialty there's no special treatment come up as to iran is a new paul recollection is just recently i understand what the true what can you recall so what it is he's an attorney there was a great disappointment

we'll be a member of the committee but they do i'm steve inskeep is this a possibility we don't know i'm trying to recall specifically i think that when we were going through the list of measures to familiarize

three i remember the committee year and those two the composition of the committee of the journal philosophy and make the committee has to a later time and when the bidding of the stage that would be worth looking into and i miss him

we checked it members of the committee i did cumming asked him about that when he said i think that might have one soft spot that i can and when this discussion came out that that would be very difficult for some member caucus summonses

tomatoes roma living in a glass house and that's the the common i would call making returning to the president's statement which to quality that will take care of them after the election of the president but only one hand to meet you and that may have preceded let's listen i'm a good listener today this question

i mean the fact that i couldn't work with the waters and thomas de waal has to get a lot of study and whether or not it's an icon the reason why when he asked me and i said well because of the heat the bureaucracy of the i was twenty one yes but i don't recall ever calling him asking him for special treatment and to the contrary whether man united's best on a number of occasions the extreme danger and that decision was made the man to see who was your contact management level of it is

the content manager libertarian that is that i do not know thank you in nineteen sixty eight annie

i think that's right you're fine the people and

the piano well and security committee and you have to pay another morning session ended on a very relaxing up in a moment the grilling of john dean will again

take on a very serious tone for now public television's complete coverage of the watergate hearings will continue after this author station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service fb the

pay to play and that continues its coverage of hearings by the senate

select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer as the committee reagan they serve as another question about that one thousand and list he's back name that the only thing i know about

what was in that relationship at all is the fact that i understand that very mr wallace wells mcconnell campaign that a substantial amount of money was provided by mostly calm about this and one thing to four hundred thousand dollars to lift the law's opponents two hundred i don't know this is your fifth day on the job

i was a comedian and question on the same technique that a meeting in advance of two questions i want to ask you to require multiple answers and try to suggest that or that the purposes of the radiation obviously you have collaboration that you estimate on any the water predicted so impersonal every possible what did the president know and yesterday that is to say whether it was director jann information whether circumstantial knowledge or whether a second anniversary of documentary unlocking every sector and what i'd like to do

today is to land at that inquiry to the nineteen eighties that we did not cover and to direct information on this is not to imply that i'm not interested in the other but i hope to contain this devout twenty minutes and if you could tell me as terry i don't know what you know first band of your own knowledge of the president's knowledge and the date of that knowledge a beginning where we left off yesterday in february and working your way through the ending of your time at the white house i think right now the second question about the two years after we finish there is one that really is up for a cumbersome and awkward but you're a lawyer and i'm a lawyer and we understand the necessity of this rather than me as you can the tale involving questions on potentially areas of conflict in your

testimony and that of other witnesses who've already testified or witnesses we may have here after about which you have personality would you identify for me important elements of controversy that you know or suspected existed this is once again as i could organize blues testimonies of that we get some idea how to test it against the testimony of other letters and thank you to those questions and they'll try to revise and if you're trying to proceed in atlanta appreciate if you begin first with your first hand knowledge a presidential involvement in that weren't really concluded our interrogation that i really wouldn't that we stop yesterday with the meat on the twenty eight i was again

what what is defined as involvement because it was in a balding pattern that came out of the cost of meetings when i began having my direct and many of these things for the purposes of this abbreviated interrogation would you please tell me what you told the president the president told to what's said the presenter president's also add value to the press because that's where it was unnecessary what would you please do that eliminating it only to direct first then information for the purpose of this interview that's a testimony to the meeting on

march thirteenth at which the air towards a conclusion of that meeting which is the volatility <unk> vote in progress i would like very much to finish this line of inquiry our poll show a permit me to continue the committee will go vote out as very odd mm hmm the question of money and how to raise more money came out and i explained that doesn't that i was kind of the problem i was in the past he came in at some point one point he came in it was on an unrelated

matter it is interrupted to resolve this particular problem and he stayed in while i was finishing my discussion of this because it cannot be a man and that he's recovered listeners with the president and then state because was that you're question the yemeni was arranged with a continuation of what i have thought to the question about money that will be permitted you're saying

so there's that the conversation the conversation individuals convicted or pleaded guilty who are continuing to make their demands on the white house and there would be some time in the not too distant future that even that will be a pre sentencing and the demands were that one again going towards a crescendo point the president asked me well how much of a demanding how much is a pentecostal and i said well the best of my estimation of the cost a million dollars or more

thank you and i'm and he said no and twenty million dollars yes he was it was then he asked me who was putting the pressure on the eyes and i said it was once becoming ill mr huhn through his attorney and at that point he's really he hasn't raised the fact that mr kahn well you've had discussions with mr coleman minister

calls regarding clemency for mr khan my mind wander at that time the president said that he had had a conversation that is that is correct and he also went on to tell me that with some expression of a man's that mr carlson have been told not to raise this with him it also said that the church had raised with him though andre to instruction he had received during this portion yes it was lawyers and eight he then asked me is that houses money nando and i said well i don't know all the details but i know there's a longer in process took him and the money cannot be traced to any store and i have to explain it

and i said i'm worried about things i never knew about him the next time i'll henley's mother and i can remember vividly at this point in his home and no comments quite funny and his original mix the pope i understand going through this and you should fully understand that if there are other points of your testimony that directly on this question but if you don't know

now does not mean that you do not stand under state has previously my i'm simply trying to organize for the committee's purposes let me ask you this it seems that mr holman was present during that meeting most of the time was there any significant conversation between you and the president before mr obama came here as i say this conversation when we sat down was on an interstate on a minute the conversation to remember that what he came in having a conversation i don't think i don't know a month and telling the president that there were problems and raising money to pursue at least a you know ninety percent of the conversation recently on the next occasion the iranians no matter what the president

myself was when he called me on the evening of the twentieth i had gone home i was at home as i recall it must've been about and i went down there that's right it depends the implications of a case is attention is that that the white house staff and there himself and he said i want to cut anybody about ten o'clock the next morning and then we go to the meeting at ten o'clock and that was on the twenty first

i mean at least it means and it's going to be hiking most dramatically present situation would like that happening in that very day that would receive another concern there that intimate in a way that with the event meaningful and they can on my top ten might be some discussion about witnessed more than the preceding day i can and that there was a cancer growing on the presidency and something had to be done about the cancer cancer because we're going to at and if the one on immediate surgery

we have an update there's this was in the oval office and there was no one present myself and it's ten o'clock in the morning that his work which proceed with this right exactly but i cried then that what i would like you and let him come back and asking the questions he might like that and i want to explain to him how continued support would be necessary i'll continue to the country would be necessary to perpetuate the cover up abuse that was that more people

say the same says an advocate that is that further support important should continue was an examples why not so what well as i say i tried to make it as dramatic as the fact that the cancer spread of activity was going to kill him until something wasn't done about it was a stop the amendment and what was the president's reaction the president and i and i wasn't looking for reactions at that point as much as trying to be as forceful and dramatic in my presentation my now

sitting in answering these questions i really hadn't watched for the reactions of the senators like so i don't understand that circumstance you do not recall i know you i then proceeded to give the president a broad overview of what i knew of the entire situation where it started it might take years to know well as a poem about the meetings that occurred in this metropolis that the fact that i had come back from that this is the first turn at it is that i am told them of the circumstances of those meetings where the members and it is for that is

when the meetings at which the many many years ago which again some of those meetings i didn't know that because of the situation

i didn't think anybody and the lead and that i should not having a moment in a conversation yesterday after the meeting him and now for the second meeting in february right i also i did not know how the plans had been finally approve i didn't know what precisely it happen as to the final decision to sign off on some cases the plan would you say that i can't look oh when i've basically presented to him

interruptions by an analyst for tnt began asking the questions that the now not likely to use the questions he did that if he were arrested and work your way through the conversations and then they try to recall operations majors it is this because i made a decision it's true that we're making i'm

seventy do it you're telling me that because of the question of mr carlson they were operating because he would take his operation over and they were concerned about is taking it over and i didn't want readers expressions of concern as to what that the matter going forward because i was aware of this conversation legitimately

my conversations with mr mcgrew the mitchell had been the recipient of information and the metropolitan had also received two mr strand some information coming democratic national committee that john economy covered what type of my knowledge of the redo seventeen situation and then it again went into other broad generalities as to what occurred the tv need for their silence and work and myself in the chemical in giving instructions in camo i had mentioned this time i met her

thank you we did not get into great detail david martin is right i've been after that statement that made that mr mcgrew remain at the reelection committee says that <unk> in preparing his testimony to the grand jury which was not to use that testimony i mean in that it was a description of your preparation us in the group for testimony before the grand jury as much

i also think of the fact that as a result of the lack of money that the that was available that i mean that we at the white house have been used to pay for these individuals i did not give details at this point you're just a

general outline conversation other details on statements of the previous testimony like when you're ready you could tell us or whatever the questions he asked the question that the question there were not many that indicated that the president still did not realize the implications of this matter and the one that really stuck in my mind is when he suggested to me i would maybe some sort of presentation and it also suggested the year and the leadership there's a meeting

i don't know and i don't believe it it was after obama said he came up in the conversation because we talked about this subsequently on twenty thirteen he probably mr mccourt i was like what's it also has that question answering or shortly before the sentencing he suggested

i said you and became an innovator that he had found in his car and he said that you describe what it means that mr mccourt into the country with mr mccourt and got into a discussion with him and the struggle for those in january in march that he was please god and he found a small battery and a planet with the records daily and then it was noted each meeting that you had with mr caulfield and others and all the subsequent events that he had done was a daily diary and of the day the master will have met with him now i

miss fabio handed it to me and he's right it was based on that mr mitchell that i didn't think that a wise that mr mr mccartney either because that is to me as a worthless because mr mccourt was keeping the valley and wellness activities like to your conversation that there's a person you are but even before this you know the mccourt was the most likely individual who have not remained silent and there i did it without specifying who it was i told the president i didn't think it was possible that all these individuals would

remain silent wherever they must report an incident of his political acumen and monuments that item that's correct if beak it is the man that came directly to meet hu mr o'brien came up in the conversation that is correct that is correct as if only note in your plan your testimony incentives and here's the language used on your statement assuming the best of your ability and i have exercises the greatest degree of care

particularly with my conversations with the president and my witness statement i've tried to not overstate anything anything so they're making money on the twenty in the twenty thirties as a meeting on the air in the twenty second and there is a meeting and seventies and for repeated on me we have three more meetings to discuss his work i think a second camel exceptional written statement in that respect in which you move on the afternoon of march twenty four this was in the and as the meeting to

settle down with pretty good about that meeting shortly thereafter i have no recollection of how long he was within that but i wouldn't say all work for five ten minutes the most that was the day that there was no conversation that he was still conversing with anyway that meeting there were discussions about helping mr mitchell come down and there were some discussions about this committee and there were some discussions about the fact that i was going to go to the grand jury as i recall my biggest reason

accomplished that as with each individual asked them for their judgment on a given point and over time it got to me i would say no i disagree why do you disagree i said i think it was and i go out you anticipate my question i was about to say if you would please state the important feature of a conversation is there any other significant important corporation that's right

expiration date but when one man looked at another man in addition to that non verbal communication <unk> and say anything you at that point that might be significant of this trip it i think it's it my recollection of weapons is not that good because they're and that he was unhappy i know the subsequent been that neither one of you so with that

and now and seventies that's it mr carlin will say anything to indicate a question that you disagree because you thought i mean

you know and has anything to do with that job i cannot say anything that number the president say anything that will be in the meeting and that i'm sure the discussion was that that is wrong because there was no work that legalization i have

at the conclusion of the meeting the president quote for mr hollande community odds and where he was is that john mccain had come down in the end and you're listening to morning edition and that's what he said did the president say anything that you can recall on it would have two parts to the president say anything when he said that they are going home and it might be inviolable and if you don't say something if you can recall what that means i cannot there's a bit of that

the next morning i don't know like many many meetings executive privilege that he knew i know

no except in the fact that there's probably an overt he's overstated executive privilege position he's taking a beating on that and there should be some traction going back to a point on that list was john nichols that's correct at one point during the discussions i used as the perfect excuse myself because i was working on a statement that there were going to be right exactly the president faces

and i have to do to go about it and what it was about he said apple in the corner a table in a quiet conversations to seek ten minutes or so and then i rejoined the meeting and the discussion was joe focusing around this committee and executor which at that point the president turned me and said tom i think a lot of work and discuss the center of an odd the parameters of executive privilege and i said an unwise because i am quite an issue in the great american sentiment they're negotiating he agreed and go out and said that he would come up and visit with senator graham on discussing the executive committee for the white house

imagine this mr mitchell state and have a social conversations with the president they were talking about the time i was i was in annapolis reason i do and they forgot about the economist michel michel to jonathan ullman and that was just a complement the lake mead in front of mr mitchell i was trying to make an arrangement for mr mitchell to meet with ryan who had been wanting to meet with him and as you know outside the president's sweet that there is an npr poll city makes available for guests i

was talking to he was right i mean and that mindset and these days is that an important aspect of the martian exactly i think that the us and once again we can get that whenever certain her prepared statement moving here we move into a point of doing that is correct previous occasions

and i said to him you suggest thank you it is as newspapers

that sentiment was there a meeting we arrived there are about least thirty years so so i would say that the crop of thinking then and the fact that there were two allied about one one thirty or so and i would assume that that was going on but then he had left yeah but in the seventies that their inquiry now is he said well done your prediction was was caught and i

was in reference to the fact that i'm twenty thirty am i thought one of the defendant's word would that remain not occurred when mr cordesman this letter to the accord on the twenty thirteen the president say that our circumstance well he was he was you get that that he was a well mr mccourt had a sense of the report are all aligned i cannot let it was euro is your recollection at the president

and they do the information that he knew of the mccourt letter to the chorus and then he told me he said well tanya prediction was right and that gets to work it was after that we entered into a discussion about one campaign he suggested i go up in and relax and i was out of my home my home surrounded by the bus that morning as a result of the preceding days a common grave i have i have not made myself have been available to the press during this matter and my house has been i might say a steak got almost twenty four hours a day by the paris newspaper television reporter interviews them through the most

low no no there you go media thank you it was mm hmm that's a couple of years but the

important interest in the cove maine or are they coming to go well i have a couple days to make my wine and the economy does his best thinking at camp david and what i should do is go up and assess the entire situation and figure out where we go from here i am that is correct now march twenty third time i mean we had we had a conversation about that as a result of the back up there but i don't think that my testimony that one yeah well i can't

be in the rain and i'm an be up to a monitor and i waited and the conversation about in saying that he had understood that were basically hearsay and i think that was my understanding so i assumed that mr trump somebody also about the matter and i asked him why that's

right the time i got to camp david had weapons to do everybody i was dealing with and that i was thinking about the continued coverage when i think of the word this is a conversation with the percentage of the most conversation the peaks boy others this meeting was that indirectly of my requests on saturday the

fourteenth i had made a list through history and i thought based on the conversations that my counsel had met with the prosecutor's and my council's assessment of the entire lives of the circumstances that they were also targets of the grand jury along with myself baby and indicated that this was contrary to what mr klein means to hold them just a short time than proceeding that regard what the grand jury was doing what it was which way it was going well now what my conversations with the prosecutors where all the record at this point in time so obviously the attorney general would not not

so an actor mr lippman if this resulted in the attorney general meeting with the president on one on sunday and i believe mr peterson might've been idle preferred earth and i got a call for an all day on sunday but those with my counsel and there were another meeting and i didn't answer the call until about seven thirty that night mr edmonds it happen to be going back in utah and i would not drive along in him and have a chat with them about something you want to chat with me now it's quite evident to meet that what happened is that the president met with the attorney general mr peterson a ten minute gotten been informed of this and he wanted to talk to me about why ten years i did not want a populist ehrlichman is that it's three o'clock and i'm gonna miss another well what would you tell me about your conversations with preston on the fifth

day i was in the prosecutor's and that's it on the way an ah i wonder if i am being set up by the president others with mark bachman from my own mind because i knew that halderman ehrlichman knew that anything the president asked me i would answer and i would answer truthfully a lot of the united states the conversation

it was mm hmm i have to go when i made my decision that was but in my discussion with the prosecutors

and i have discussed my own involvement in the involvement of others i told him that i had not discuss any conversations i've had with with him with the prosecutors and i had not had any a feeling for the prosecutors these of the president at one point in the conversation i recall the president asking me about whether i had reported him on the fact that mr haldeman have been told by many after the second meeting with mr mitchell on content or fourth of nineteen seventy two about what occurred in that meeting and i said yes i have been in the president raised about the coaches have come up in the discussion you had with henry peterson and peterson had raised with him and

when asked at one point in the conversation on this ramming through the high points and not going through every detail here or one point a conversation we talk about the fact that libby was remaining silent i told him that i thought that really was looking for some sort of signal he told me that he got computers and i believe that the president had the impression that he was looking for survivor guess that's my understanding also that mr libby looking for some sort of signal i said what might be the signal is if you were to meet with libby's attorney at this point he picked up the telephone and called mr peterson even the president it is

and began his caucus that mr peterson about the fact that he was willing to learn to cook and libby's lawyer if necessary to give mr liddy this signal to talk mr peters maduro the near the other end of the conversation that he talked about some other things mr peter smith the time i don't know what they were lawyers that is correct i recall also the president asking me about henry peterson and my assessment of an occasion and i assume that's why the message that sent to the president earlier regarding mr peterson my sent a message through to him at one point i was a man you get

a good assessment of circumstance i didn't feel like on the president but yet there's not one o'clock mr peterson about his own situation i wouldn't think mr peterson would want anything to see the presidency upon and that mr peterson was a very very well respected imam at the department of justice who were there right now you know i'll give you the best advice my world and then what what else was set of the president of the issue for my evaluation peterson i recall and and this is not in my testimony

because it's now going on here something i remember getting into the peterson conversation there was also some discussion about my feelings about appointing a special prosecutor and he said something to the effect that i don't think we need a special prosecutor has time for you and i said i think that mr peterson as an honorable people man to handle the job was there anything else because by as to what i mean as bill