1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-18; Part 2 of 5

the paintings by from washington continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert macneil if we go back to the hearings learn how to counsel fred thompson is going to turn over the questioning to his deputy william sure the us unless you testified earlier dubious committee that you were initially hired to do some discrete investigations and that this hiring was done through your connection with this to cough it was the correct and if you were in fact interviewed by mr jonathan the world needs to come back to play

in your prior employment with regard to these discrete investigations arrangements i was so another word to mr complex where prior to the events which you've just described really was just as a conduit for payment you for the services that you're rendering to mr coffee and mr albertson itself and does it come back were you to conduct any investigations now so that when he called me one of twenty nine this was the first time that it really asked you to get involved in anything by way of activity why did you check with mr caulfield and find out whether or not just a comeback was operating with any authority ms

neely right mr givens to conduct a number of assumptions but the period of time in terms of the twenty eight or twenty nine june nineteen seventy two you really relied on comebacks another conversation as in that moment mr camargo so one of the business partners was disgusted absolutely would know so that was the combative the money it on the tape i would go on and i said things to come but that it would be better if you didn't know what matter not that i'm going to use a distributor lion's den what you want to deliver the best of my ability and i don't think you should

know i failed and can i assume by your statement that you didn't discuss this activity with <unk> and i there's a correction now obviously this was an unusual activity was an investor us with well to me it was not an unusual was just another sign that anyone ever given you seventy five thousand dollars in hundred dollar bills before to discreetly or surreptitiously deliver to people who were known defendants in criminal matter no and i believe you testified earlier that you were for twenty seven years in new york city a member of the police force are so was this in fact an unusual procedure for you oh about inconsiderate

many scientists have unusual but then as far as money as far as the money in a lot of the police department that have occasion to let the president burdened with her two heads are governments in which they were sums of money involved i would say two suitcases filled with sadness them in a car appointed by the western wall street was but that would be about two million dollars and has a device which you didn't deliver that money to defendants in criminal cases even those places has become like an honorable and a final minute we were not deliberately financial at that time a lot of them actually made beyond the strictly for legal reasons why in an era for their families and i went along he did you ever checked with your friends to call you and find out whether or not this activity was author of the ocean and going back there the amount of money that you have from what i understand in your dear mr lentz no there was occasions and i think that we

thought that you are karen at least seventy five thousand dollars in a paper bag and traveling back and forth between washington and new york city is editor at what was the arrangement that you had witnessed the comeback of the money will also as a mother thank you you say that it's sort of as method to keep the money so it had never occurred to you to discuss ways to combat what risk there was

in losing the money we never discussed and i think just to come back let me ask you this how would you have prevented someone from picking up the envelope that you left on the counter and howard johnson's with twenty nine thousand nine hundred thousand cash and what about one of the keys off the farm bill before mrs hancock well the way security was about the four authors was dylan's to mention is there was some scotch tape even now six months or eight months later satisfy the human form a problem rather than one instance of the capital have fallen from around a wiping your insides are full thank you those

sums of money that were delivered to you the year before cases that <unk> comeback at the cache with a hundred dollar bills though at one point there was a year that was the low fifties twenties and you know one goes with it one one location and every other amazon about those in sequence not they were all there with her from our own money to move money and mostly old use more of we never worried about the money the interest of that you know can now mr latimer to discuss with mr lenz there's some conversation that you had on the phone witnesses and i'm curious to know what mrs hudson attitude was as she was making these increased demands to you for more money well i would say increased

very efficient situation a situation like this as far as we understood each other coalition will that was a request that became into the main rationale the fact that she was entitled to when she was commanding did she ever reflect you for example what would happen if the particular needs were not met no did she ever suggest puppetry for the conversation concerning mr liddy she indicated that mr libby was desperate for cash or if you look at what the

result would be or what the consequences might be a facility weren't given the cash will always kept asking you for more money well obviously for it to keep everybody happy situation likely to fully as we discussed i assume it was a failing of libby's family was in desperate need of money from it this is the time for that i take a mr martinez mr gonzalez mr sturgis were not quite entitled to the quality of legal representation at the arrest words they were only getting ten thousand dollars and the others were getting twenty five well sick care system well cca concerning mr parker if you make any reference to time it was to bottom line that's been in jail i don't refer to work time in jail

for most of awkward one that was one point conversations and then towards the end it was you indicated easy like whatever money i was living in ireland she became concerned with i think you might want to use is kind of a weapon abroad by comedic policies something about it was there was an insinuation in addition to that the distribution of this provision of money the families inside of my work and with the possibility of jail sentences as you mentioned thank you but you tell her you had no authority to negotiate when you have no authority to make decisions as well let me ask you this question she was with did you have the impression that perhaps this is how i was talking to someone else other than new concern in the amounts of

money that used to get richer and where did you go the fact that the wind was to come back to come back to me and say how much really just a fraction would she would indicate that ibm on she received but they weren't enough to playlists of the fees and fees for attorneys etc and one when that might be forthcoming so than another word she would make demands to you you would convey those americans to come back to come back and so easy to get this a man among them you can tell you're making a delivery of that money money that was not now so therefore you can conclude he had been in contact with someone else you know who she was and the notion that a comeback ever say that he spoke to her loving early and julie you mentioned when she was meeting with there was a point in time in conversations are equal but she says she's conducted some type it was a sit down with the findings from time to

time we should mention reports financial recovery plan and mortgaging his residence and should mention of the fact that there were some mutual benevolence he was meeting with the defendants with the defense but that she ever give you any indication that with anyone from your side concerning how much money he was to be paid by your sources well actually i was born at a level of taking in what was the comedy a juvenile a while you haven't been the only person that was in the initial demands for subsequent missions i was your version that went through this with you that after the demands were made it was established in every bite her the mosque if you were instructed to deliver ellen smith for that conversation that you have a mess to come back in the airport in orange county california that date was that if you recall

it was the end california and that entire conversation took place in the car and the car and that was the occasion that you received the last payment of seventy five thousand dollars from his comeback tour of a comeback as indicated yesterday in his testimony that he came to a conclusion somewhere along the way that he had to get out of this business of paying off the month well as you suggested to him that he will get out of this business issue was with you right up to him and that was <unk> comebacks response to inspire phone calls he was getting more and more concerned about what was going on and his reaction was much the same with my own thoughts that we were and gospel recording and some kind of a flow of events in a money that we did not contemplate anticipate any way you thought about that what we would consider the alito the automobile business this was the final thing that we

want to work in other words came out of his heart was demanding and the amounts that must have come back are giving you were getting to be so vast that it was apparent they were going beyond just paying legal fees in and the need for meeting the needs of the families of defense and that was a reasonable view of us to come back into the conclusion that you should get out of the fray just the money it was the way that we have to continue to do so for the juice that begin if you began feeling that you were becoming a major in something that might be illegal or let's say that i have learned shaking with a while and we begin to get concerned so because i felt all along a little bit you

can contact him you never discussed with him the fact that you are concerned about what you were getting yourself into no shows to court ruled washington hasn't been any washington is that we use so i would assume then that you and was living what was totally on a conversation about was that would be helpful when it hired outside of that in about a four or a person conversations don't get up until that time ever done anything for them that you consider to be illegal no show and it might very much involved in you that it may become a look back at the entire period of time that i was doing it was to come back it never occurred to me that this moment i do not consider that i did anything illegal that was to come through that he knew that i was on the committee but you did state that based on the amount of money involved and the demands that are being made that you're obviously making payments to

mrs cohen and others that exceeded the basic needs of attorney fees in the family yes at a joyous to drop last september nineteen did anyone ever contact you again about becoming involved in this type of an operation mission you never ask you again make any further drop offs in asia you have to come back with a request that you make any further drought knows no one else and know it for the question that you just thought of to help her three drops one hundred and fifty three thousand dollars this is not correct well and no one thousand five hundred people

about is there any way we can cooperate that state senate where someone's fortune well i think that eventually would be the money was not had not been picked up that somebody would have it on because they were looking forward to get the money that's the only way these days are you going to get it on was the complex barrel for the year nineteen seventy two and they was twenty two thousand dollars that means you know what sort of discrete investigations where you were that was sort of discrete investigations where you require mm hmm from investigations of backgrounds of the persons who were

organizations and kerry on assignment you find it necessary to commit illegal acts such as breaking and entering then the time you're working for the white house hopeful the committee agrees to have contact with members of the intelligence gathering evidence of the justice department what about the fbi cia the washington police this is your first one we have received information suggesting that your contacts with the new york police department is that correct well i mean you had access to the files motion website and the department did not

have the access i would have been a lot of the information in the region will have to do it then as a private investigator mei in any vision of the system that the allegations against him was more measured dc police department in your conversations with these assad regime directly discussed about community all on loan and to get to that what she was asking for when the arm founder expenses as you can even mean i spoke to him a text of expenses to a local family and the picasso

zero changing your testimony because the first time you get to testify that this is live discussing you know kong and india ms mcgroarty sure you justify that you distributed two hundred ninety thousand dollars was to come by in the last pan was on the nineties and the trial of the watergate defendants did not is it your testimony that after the nineteenth of september you could not perform in a similar mission for anyone else and they're struggling on screen these defendants idea where

anyone with that notion you know as you maintain contact with people like mr lydia mr bittman in several contests on fiddle on this assignment is still insisting that you have no i do see police files do you have anything else in essence disease they live in the end of the conversation out on an

official records that i would get information available this information was available no no neither committed any new responsibilities the peak i don't know is i have them out on who is an interviewer him up in your step and you probably wouldn't guess that was like as you became a lot of talk the negotiations

zero in the morning a lot of it might be it was the same lesser sentences these sentences it wasn't easy

for more money you've been a member of the police department after twenty seven years and i gather from your record so very distinguished service and i presume that you know what the actress legal illegal loggers with the criminal laws of new york city but of washington dc if a fellow detective came to you and he says he has observed a man dealing and large sums of cash they think he's in four movies dropping envelopes crazy legs using simple

what was their conclusion the us to the person with a conclusion be the person was conducting and you know i know i will resist disease of his actions and i consider myself as a monologue where your actions their actions of a man who had nothing to worry about his father was also used in the manner of distribution is that that was really in my opinion was the purpose of this is a situation that this morning with people attending the president's timing as it was legal in his

consideration there was nothing about it were the recipients of these songs made aware the distribution of the songs would be secret mr bittman know that you're born every twenty five thousand dollars and was a secret delivery you mentioned women it sure that i'm joanna of the recipients to keep this money sinking want to move on the table money a phrase that was

used the most money was necessary it was the region you see and you're twenty seven years as a police officer at the reprise label which usually means that they all called shaul well this is illegal isn't it i know under the table well yeah you know i would make an investigation of that allegation and in those days i still haven't whined that it's legal fees and at which he is suggesting and babbitt and one of the meanings of other individuals in something as the conclusion that we

carry but the question is really is now if you look back through all of the activities as we've outsourced of all witnesses to look like america's but you still consider that the activities in which you were involved were completely legal isn't even alive the animals for auction on at the time as it was before the legal offenses says the family as yemeni prison before i

don't question your debut week the beginning of your testimony of your listeners to kevin was the reason i believe it was it was the design it was to be notified orleans fashion he said we needed a stay in some capacity because it's a

conversation that he was sitting with somebody else and isobel do you know anything about what you're trying we're beginning of this scenario and your first conversation with the combat as you undoubtedly know this is extremely important to determine whether his activities in your activities will all nobody's willing to do what he wanted to do in the hotel room photo of local requesting an economist at washington dc why did he say he wanted to become an asylum didn't mention

anything about the abuse conversations raise finances attorneys' fees and for members of families of persons with government from you as millionaire sleuths and eventually it was i mean it was you mentioned you said it was legal how how did that come up

in the us i think eeo one of her usual me and he said that you say you know what was legal no but i had the right to sue the distinct impression that it searches for a ritual he did mention to you what this most of a political issue and that was what would a gay people and civilians and for what purpose is for legal fees and assistance to the region for those conversations i was with as you can tell us more

what transpired there were conversations about what she needed is that what you said when an initial conversations you and engine weren't what sums of money and what they might be needed for that she won in a nearly conversation as you mentioned the south has certified that you lose that she was she had been fired he had lost the job and that that should be taken into consideration for some time and we know that because this wow i really tried to inform of my position in the man i was simply to have gotten from our they figure definitely

the first thing that you mentioned i was dropping out last week and i can't let the long conversations i cannot allow them in because of the sequence the reason i'm on the deal which was the cherry trees that are testifying should mention that the journey and the defendant should mention the trial may be difficulties of the tribulations of a trial about of how much money would be needed and bail money for the people down south and salaries for their living expenses are either three thousand dollars a month for the principles and the engine without a scale well i understand scripture justified at first what i wanted to find out is what is the breakdown of this figure of one hundred thousand dollars the thing is she first mention

she did not mention she navigated if i think one thing is that she mentions doesn't stray dogs three thousand dollars per month our leaders should mention and this is a lot of trouble with a conversation about the first one which you would mention money for information that libby's wife a medical problems with ten thousand fifteen thousand per year yeah fifteen thousand from this is that his wife and i sang for him or her somewhere and then her annual salary ten or fifteen the most fun and then you know eventually they were they monitor won a thirty thousand dollars over thirty times that one conversation well nsa's

conversation or what you must do unique time you know what you want i was guessing separate question for you it was a request to consider in addition for the cost of this the reason was you see one sort of things i should have come up constantly with south korea we're also following a three thousand dollars per month for living expenses for the leaders went for seventeen thousand dollars mrs lydia because she had psychiatric problems ten to fifteen thousand dollars from mrs cobb because she needed

that's the other thing is we have yet not worthy of understood that there would be you know the pope are you go on that's because authorities thought it is a monthly basis and which later on a conversation a multiple five years the fifteen thousand it was a request for walker was two thousand sturgis gonzales

you sense no disease wrong and two thousand eight hundred thousand and one teeny these were living expenses will record of time over the months conversations he's vocally of a roundabout figure and she wrote it a lovable five five months i live in the first conversation that the following conversation because the way the money was delivered we couldn't meet these requests are just

you're looking at that label i'm looking as you know i wrote after i testified as a reminder when i first justified i had the principal figures in mind when i started with one and memorizes the night vision that i sat with a copy of twenty nineteen before the nineteen ninety four this was a sheikh you make your first witness in that you know it was made after the year for my appearances and even after the last appearance in the you know the cheapening know when you have your conversations with him many of these people her living expenses gessner says

that's the fifteen thousand dollar and mr mccourt living and hunt use disability and his disability was for the loss of the associate of the last and i was about fifteen thousand dollars a year for her and thought form is a former schoolteacher was about recently was about ten and fifteen words you just said mrs lilly fifteen i use a couple most requested ten thousand from a tramp stamp was fifteen thousand down these leaves about living fifteen thousand and fifteen thousand the attorney's fees

fully twenty five thousand boxes of china twenty five thousand and the three others thirty thousand figure the ten thousand it now when did she mention the state should mention all of those things turned to talk to note when did she mention this over what period of time in a conversation about the four private conversations from early june july oh ok can you give us any idea of the escalation of these demands what she has the first time about the council well it'll be interesting and with other nations

repeated demands it's tiresome and we'll repeat that our problem was that we couldn't deliver the minnesota bus that was to come back and it was big it was available for that and i guess there was some raise more and over the other and when the cycle of it was made does sanders thank you the fair was only bits and pieces from turn right now and that i'd like to go to truly instructions as to what you did for her to walk into a beach amount of money you gave reasons that that in detail of the committee forty thousand and that when she received the

money writes than they were with the drops below discussions from each other is about a suspended how to go about because it kind of minds was the comeback to reach the point that when she was asking for was not my possession what to do with the money and was sentenced but it out there for the needs of a family who use the money for years for the needs of a family of other requests for attorneys that's correct the only one of instructions that was eventually say anything about mr pattillo she was not satisfied he said we do know is that there will be probably a juvenile best and i said well i understand i will

be getting back to him or do anything what these and so for forty three thousand dollars what did you do about i believe that when she had already been told probably that she will give the money and she will distribute a lot of the matter and two are you gave an instructional instructions about korean extrapolating i don't believe any instructions with that fifty three thousand five hundred dollars no no nanette oh it's the only thing you can recall and this is a discussion on instruction on the first drug use is one of them yes sir business

partner as you said it to you said that in addition to the other demands that was ten thousand dollars necessary to give the biographer use on the table that was in you know in every conversation i recall that when he came back from his combine example are there mrs cobb there's a lot of more specific or something that affects as well i think that we realize that i was not understood because i remember him as such a conversation as well as plans to come back once the under the table and see it through a second appearance somewhere along the line she insinuated that it was for some other person's lawyer involved in a situation where somebody that in florida you know

the snow this is a really unique yes originally oh yes in a national conversation he'd probably a percent something here that was unusual and i think those demonstrations you think what would you

know about how this idea came up when i spoke to him was the boatman it's only then it was different conversations that it was an unusual amount of the specialist fees i'm scott simon you haven't figured thank you and he said well isn't something to the effect that we get back will get back to me and i really that the system is a combat and a guy said to discuss it indicated something that he was not taking it at that

time he was not going to accept the money in atlanta finally named you know that and i think that's fine and then you send it i don't know for you

and he would come up with a number of income up to figure i saw reported that was the combat was to combine says alright i'll get back to you with the vikings is growing again why this might be there might be an identical which was to buy and i don't know for a figure for the cost of his people and he says well he said it once he says it back this is the second and certainly for many many people before the conversation correct and as mentioned anything before wallace other businesses there's a lot of that yesterday when i was

driving with somebody that figure twenty five twenty five thousand eight they deliver the money incidentally in these phone calls was to come alone to use when talking to most of the lam for what's his reaction about all this time scott and phone conversations goes no not particularly action that was a and that was a real little more you find that his lineup as to what kind of movie dude where's the calling anybody about this

notion two years thank you it was and clint is that the figure is twenty five and was to come next and back to you and then you get back the musical in a little money occasionally and then i said that i mean i'm also a habit of the money ready for an outline that preceded it and this is why news

now you have a new ceo to be so say anything else because you don't think you think he expected those of rubble awful i mean that would be politically feasible one of the negotiations they were having the notion when you suggested and then this notion was unintelligible oh i'm reminded there was one even called me the next day and see the court was a comment in its very close to that point was the button in a city like retirement oh and i quote was to combine invention of film and he said i'll get back to your family by the

supposed to button again when i called was the ideas about that's a real consequence now because women and it was true true and who told you he wanted was to take in the twenty five thousand dollars which to combat as many poems to us was to back and he said that he was visiting with us and the nineteen seventies you cry

and you said that i would like to return the money or words to that effect at their speaking with the other attorney loretta lynn out why reporting but the gist of it is he wanted to return the money an imaginary talk about you know and use the instructions is that an issue and that was the end of the conversation that was a major political and you want to express well i mean i was quite surprised i said well i said i dont understand is there was something about it i sent out the word for the instructions i promised to come back and report having conversations will wake up like tomatoes diplomas to win again an idea and at this point was the us have lots of places the money so question about money was

a problem it was the positivity we are just a few thank you because i'm sorry returning the money was normal and it was vinyl alleging as well as inspiring that he was an analyst with his with his third try what do these calls for the afternoon call the money to do it it has been on the

second one of the morning michael youssef and if you ask him anything further what changed my notion of surprise to them as jane austen's showed some surprise that set of instructions a couple of quick questions for you mention messed up on that one because that was the only one of us how to do a movie where i didn't write it when his wife told me that because of some personal problem not think that she would and this was the second or third pick up that she would make it and the husband would make the picture and i suddenly was violently

so the exactly is the instructions and he came and looked at the clock policy department knowing what you know now so that satisfied yes i know that he was one of the sentences they roll up sleeves and innovate uk imagine coffee washington also i don't agree with oh and one of the question yet and he witnessed a court ruling body of almost

within the news a nervous you save lives in washington time oh yeah the pope what do you get when you almost i think that in that contaminated anyway because i know you are seeking to do about one of the women one question and did you begin getting suspicious about those caught up i would say receptacle with a lot because of the man's to continue sending money the urgency where the first conversation is a lot of a lot of the man than what you

first thought it was a request an innovative have changed shape when we got to get this in a now well why we've got over seventy five thousand one hundred people some of them to a person face to face not all system changes its way of distribution money and the distributions of the money was just a publicity etc but basically in this particular matter really matter in which he was putting increasing everything and no it became obvious that there was a much larger thing and when the narrator loan requests i did was seventy five thousand one hundred distribution which was probably an insurer blue semi noticed something there have been about four hundred thousand dollars and still can't figure it does your mother's cousin whether why these demands were always increasing and to you at least always excessive notion of soul

now that's a gurney has satisfied his curiosity we're going to pause reflect public television's coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after the spot for a station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs public broadcasting service fb