1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-05; Part 3 of 5

it's been documents and us from his recruiters convenience of that if he had had mr mitchell a copy of a document human himself a couple you refer to and that's what this refers to it means that those two voters were prepared with investments that he wanted to take a meeting with a little bit mr levy playing anything for him i mean certainly just recently i don't remember meetings with mr mitchell very often i presume this was the meeting i can remember a conversation with mr libby in which he came to me and indicated that he had something visual presentation at which he was interested in being certain that that was an easel are or something that he could mount his own

industries was office i subsequently tried to determine whether there was such assistance i don't think i did it myself i think as one of the secretaries to call mr mitchell secretary to make that determination and it was that was the nature of the conversation in his inquiry i saw him with a package that i think might have insurance and might not have insurance so i can say i'm related to approximately the same period well i don't know i had been shown the records that were kept by a secretary who worked for me

and then that those records or it indicates that is jigging attended would have been invited to attend that meeting july that's what the record show i have no recollection myself now in the nineteen seventies well i think that we discussed it he from time to time would come into my office which was located in front of mr mcgrew his office it was jason and when mr larry was unable to get in to see mr mcgregor because he was busy or for other reasons or perhaps just ten scheduled an appointment he would get from time to time stop in my office and get the nature of his business he did stop in and on one occasion i can remember him giving me a sheet of paper which i would identify only as being a blank

sheet of paper with some type and i don't remember letterhead on the sheet of paper the only recollection i have a pretty a pretty good we discuss those but that was a big statement to me that he hated to write something like this damn and that's that's literally the extent of the statement it was clear to me that i shouldn't this if it wasn't for my conception either because of the way in which he gave me a piece of paper to me face down on the desk and i would say within a matter of minutes given to mr mcgregor and that's we discuss this my recollection he is that there could have been a total and that for that i seem to remember that figure two hundred and fifty sets of newspaper accounts indicating that there was two

hundred and fifty thousand dollars in a certain religion but you know i i just supposition on my part to say with a piece of paper was i don't know nineteen seventy two there's a leading man yes at that time it's my recollection that mr michel i was a key biscayne and the jet had a meeting with mr mitchell in key biscayne and that that's who's going to say and i think what you're referring to

on their way it says carnal i believe we referred to the fact that i've been asked to get gordon liddy the best recollection of this is that the reason i was asked to get gordon liddy was i was asked the region and have him call mr mcgregor that say just have a vague recollection it could have come in another time but it it makes sense in conjunction with a century that's right mr mcgregor was not in washington at the time as is indicated here also and i think that that was the reason for being asked to give us to litigate calling answer

is a recording of activity is taking place in the office is just random recording of interruptions it appears from the way in which this appears that there's too many would have interrupted me and said that he needed an answer i don't know whether that represented a phone call in the seventies simply stopping by the office that this illustrates the purpose for keeping that a lot in the first place there were lots of interruptions like that and a lot of activity and that was the reason for that just to remember it you know i'm not certain that it was when he returned from florida what i remember was that i do remember on one occasion the timing of the occasion roughly coincides with this mr mcgregor standing in my doorway to call somebody

out it was his habit to frequently do that that was the nature of my job he would come and give me numerous instructions and i was to pass on approvals disapproval is that sort of thing reactions to the decisions are their manners leaves him he appeared on my doorway and said call telling it's approved for a time it's approved and that we need to get going in the next two weeks that was a perfectly characteristic thing for him to say because i frequently called other senior members of the commission told a similar things i made such a phone call i relate it roughly a time to this because i have a feeling that that the first weekend to enable had something to do with with the two weeks that that's a very vague recollection of it mr lilly and his reaction was a little bit different than what the reaction of most people that i can get this kind of decision

to and i remember they said but i can't it's gonna be hard or something like that and you've protested and i indicated to him that he was going to have to talk to mr gruber about it but i didn't know what it was that i was telling him about that whatever he had talked about with mr mcgrew there was approved and if that made sense to him ian said he subsequently did talk to mr mcgregor on a number of occasions i assume that whatever the matter was was bizarre you do in june of nineteen seventy two these these documents were shown to me by you and other members of the

staff they seem to me to being similar to documents that i was there and i remember on one implication seemed seeing something similar to beyond the low i remember seeing something similar to that the material to display i try to describe this in one earlier occasions annapolis that i appeared before the grand jury and was asked about the nature of observing gotten similar to this at that time i identified documents which are not exactly like that upon seeing the subsequent occasion i think i mean i think that this is the stationary i didn't i've never been shown documents by mr silvers he indicated that he might at some future time do that the heat i don't think it's had an opportunity to do that but at the time i was desperate to try to identify what i saw and when i did

so identified it slightly differently than this but one seen this i think this is the same now do you see these documents and describe the circumstances surrounding during the during the week by june seventeenth and perhaps it was during the killings by nineteen seventy i can't be certain exactly the time similar to the one today sixteen for it on that occasion it was simply industry workers hands are lined with this i am not certain subsequently i was handed the document and i was handed it in such a way that it was indicated to me

very clearly that was not tomatoes or that it was not for my conception at that time it was handed to me and i had made that was the second time that i saw it was during those those two weeks prior to that setting right for you and two my memory is that it was split open and the stationary was either unit slid open on top of it and that they were together and at that time i was doing when the entity that i just described a few minutes ago i was preparing to mitchell's files for a meeting with mr mitchell no he was campaign director at this time and it was it was the daily activity

of us i was candidly that the documents and i was asked to put the minister michel spiral of the nature of that is that the things that mr mcgregor might have wished to pick up with mr mitchell we're going to file markets mr mitchell's file and that's all it doesn't indicate in women and it's an industry group oh yes it is and you know those occasions with also photographs with the stationary in an envelope dated and that certainly did wrestle with it they're stationery on the second occasion i describe in which i was handed them until i was taller and it was clear that it was not related to be looking at them i do remember photographs or what appeared to be voting this week yesterday i received a call at

approximately six o'clock i was asleep at the time yemeni citizens vehicle initiatives instruction was and the conversation as i remember it was robert that we had some things that we would like to get from the office and remove them i think the nature of his description was that we have some sensitive material that we want to remove from the office he then went on and said and there's a fire patients if there's a fire you know i mean

i think so i think analysts and he also said and their sensitive things in the officer would like you to take them out and just keep them on the weekend i did yes i did when i went into the officer was there with a number of other people watching the evening news you're on a conversation when you're so rude yes i did it was after the new senators over our survey after that a portion of the news in which the break in which occurred less discussed the other people left the room and bistro suggested that we call i think the purpose of it first

discussion and the call was <unk> want to describe what we've just seen an amazing and what the coverage was that point he went on to that and that and i think disgusting general security matters at the committee it was my impression that he had previously talk about security committee he then went on to say no i was not he said that there are these things that the rest of the office meeting knew that was that when i walk into the office i said that mr mcgriff days and remove several things from his dad's i remove a link vow removed what appeared to me to be here one more important things in the file that was the analysis of the polls and remove the operating plants which describe the key states and their strategy at all the phone call and felt that the activity was perhaps a

little bit foolish to be sitting as this living things so i stop and subsequently the phone call to a place at the brunt of the fact that there were some things that i had already taken from the desk and he was you know there was we should remove and he at that point was sponsoring be of assistance i think there was some concern at that time for just the security of these documents senior campaign officials were in california i think there was some concern at that moment that they control things very specific duties i knew what he was talking about i think he was specifically what he was talking about he was one of the things that

you just said specifically he could have definitely specifically it seems to be centered in the first phone conversation there may not have been a second decision over was and i think they indicated that to him but i said that i could find two systems and changed his name and that he then generalize times and seven other you know contender materials or other strategy materials or something to that effect bistro the conversation terminated shortly after that mr latham and i was left that task of finding which it is not

that you would need to believe that what i did and it was a combined that with some other materials the other materials concerning contenders and i gave that up at those materials in his journals in his movies mr o'hanlon on down to the third floor and then i went down there to any given that these things were in his briefcase you're sick that's right you know democratic national committee traditionally republican

parties for the invitation this is npr news sixty three sixteen wanting this information i think probably a

lot of there was a general awareness on my part that he was obtaining information that the time making the committee at the time of the invasion that's right i mean whoa i don't remember any discussion it was a surprise that he was concerned about having had an even referred to remember what i discussed this which is

that i think that my impression that mr libby was that you know they have been very capable of legal counsel but that he also occasional occasionally fairly bizarre things secretary sixty forty that's right i believe it was a picture of himself with a bullhorn an event at mit economist and conducting a range of symphonies in front of a police car it was an open season it was occasionally

bizarre next to a nearby i meet the other thing is that his relationship with my superior at that time mr mcgregor out was less than friendly all occasions and i think that from that i had the impression of him certainly not and he seems to have around i think do you agree i think the reason for that like i can remember on one occasion just sing in the hallway or something and saying to have an argument and he went into a long exploration of his great respect for mr samson for

mississippians as a manager and that sort of thing and i think that he may very well have a number of friends of the committee i didn't know i was really very well at all we were i was aware of it in one sense that i was aware that this trip were some question his position is contained in a statement his reasons who was disappointed in the committee have a safe in his office in which he can't pay cash for

the committee at that prior to april seven report came to me and asked me to assist him in i'm just pulling up his first concession speech related to say since i was because of my doing that was to be able to report a reporter also work there was a popping cache that it was an account and that was a system that i did and it was on that innovation is receiving some sense of cash that when exactly was he wears like slips of paper on which the initials of the individual victims to forgive him if we fail

mr porter and it seems to me to be a range of forty to fifty thousand dollars free agency assistant lauren with this exception if it was not ready cash in the sense that there were seventeen thousand dollars and they act the forty to fifty thousand dollars for instance on stage at the beginning of july marked several thousand dollars perhaps the recession

there were reporting there was an individual this city sam is here and there was an individual receive money and there may have been other individuals that to my recollection which is a little vague on this that there wasn't a regular disbursement of those exceptions

i don't know circumstantial understanding of what i like things that subsequently that after i learned that there was such an individual i think that was more alert today and i can see him now i was just simply have a disagreement my recollection is that it was approximately

eight thousand dollars a month but i think that when they assumed that he received several us dispersants there were considerably larger than that i think that when the nature of that five to eight thousand dollars not certain the reason i remember them is that the route he would return sums of money at accounting some one so i thought he would return three hundred dollars that they're taking out of thousands of the things i really am not completely clean sanitation no no there wasn't i have a feeling that the tonal magnitude in forty to fifty thousand dollars means that and that's the total imagine what was recorded for it i don't think so

and afghanistan in another anything else there's nothing else demonstrations yes it was he says nice things robers says that when

events that perhaps because i mean i was sitting in his recruiters office at the time that he received a phone call demonstrators to attend the review that the reasons have a planned demonstration it seems to me that that was an activity he says in africa on the specific recollection at that wasn't carrying out or that it was carried out differently from the way in which angered station i think the most important assistance there that was the nature of the initial compensation

for possible plot or sort of music it was earlier that was in january february or december and it was the beginning of the discussion and in the beginning of this nation mr martin reports that has to come back have agreed to find someone who's going to work for this report that is the nature of that conversation this concert was going on in egypt and that's the conversation i think information like

an on the circumstances under which that that conversation took place it was my feeling that was it when it was carried out as a teenager he was working for him well that disgruntled with those other campaigns or perhaps just individuals who wanted to be involved in politics and who wants to retain information thank you well there were two occasions in which i was president what these issues

it wasn't normal no i don't morning steve where is it and i think his testimony with other witnesses i have a pretty good idea i think i

chanting there was a tremendous responsibility i went to the end of it as the senators take a recess to vote on a bill dealing with the energy crisis they have more information about a cash fund to mull over the money was in the safe or herbert porter and much of it went to g gordon liddy now the counsel fred thompson will continue his questioning roberts reason or an age of magruder in a moment right now we would like to thank you that viewers for your comments and

this gavel to gavel coverage your response has been overwhelming to date we received more than sixty nine thousand pounds and letters and we're very grateful to those of you who've taken the trouble to write is if any of you still want to express an opinion we suggest you do it to your local public television station in our public television system it's each local station your local station which makes the individual decision on whether applied programming like this so if you have an attitude about your local station's decision why don't you express it to them were sure they'll appreciate public television's coverage of these hearings will continue after this pause for a station identification on a great coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service the pain the

point terry and pike continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities you're getting correspondent robert mcneil so three members of the

committee came back and after the vote in the senate on the energy crisis beyond which they approved by eighty five votes to ten a legal requirements and big oil companies for mandatory allocations of oil to smaller companies that it begins at this point fred thompson has another question for robert reason fb to pay one question

you know i didn't know there was a great deal of extended vacations i think with great suspicion it was june seventeenth agreement there're certifications sales ever seen

information at i think that feeling is they really just recording of activity that was going on and frequently and i might make an occasion someone comes to them many immigration

the meeting yes indeed thank you that's out in la that there's a way to keep this has given us a meeting to submit an application back home now this is the prologue

and that decision and eight to be precise my recollection is that on one occasion i was a test because of lillian and to make such a statement my recollection is that it was could've occurred shortly after that trip because the time since greg i can be absolutely certain and he's also a senior staff members of the committee virtually every day

you know yes it is he used all of this will move on information of information was this account to follow the young people follow them it wasn't really you know that is the file on it is there any

kind anyone else each document that went to mr mitchell through may that would've been a formal documents duplicate cutting listen to mr holmes office that's correct he was just fifty families of the nature of what we were doing there were working for the president who was the candidate in and therefore we're providing an opportunity singing now yes sir i would imagine

a number of people to be precise working for a man it was my impression as tristram communicating frequently with many members of the committee on the stalin himself may have communicated directly with other senior staff members i don't imagine that it was frequent do we like on a number of occasions i have subsequently june seventeen we'll hear about some of the things which i described previously

i think i asked him by way of raising some suspicion just what was going on and i think i asked him when the occasion of what gemstone was because i did not know what gemstone was and he indicated to me that he did know a gemstone was even know at that time i was asking him only involved in this thing are we connected to this thing because it looks a little suspicious and he indicated to me that we were not that was another conversation in which was to reroute i had volunteered to be helpful to an olympic committee just to it and it would i think about me getting involved in a subsequent activities and he indicated to me that i should know now he oh man yes

i think he may have initiated by saying other things going that's correct we call on who gets to get all that we can do as he did for four years i think the difference between november and march when i was there he met with him several times a week i would say on average says that syndicated in the notebook that i described the occasion oh yes

i mean it seems to be all right mr mitchell also is concerned with the hearings concerning itt it may not have had this frequency but certainly with the exception of those days it was my impression that mr mitchell every day what was your question july nineteenth nineteen seventy two that was on the monday morning from california i believe i just saw and when he came in to

talk mr needham no yes i would say that i would say that he met with the white house staff who were concerned with different aspects of the campaign practically every day certainly is the campaign he can't speak if it was a single event well to be precise

i think that even for juveniles political activities of a campaign mr colson and perhaps later after the campaign the economy and that was in oregon mr obama perhaps course were extremely busy and when this rule went over there i was uncertain whether in fact he'd been able to see them or not there are others which was well it would have depended upon the subject of a meeting it if the meeting is concerned something that one of the principal mr clemens was was the man who oversaw

the convention he would've come out later that committee officers and then they're not with mr mcgregor another people concerned with the convention i would say that the more senior member of the white house staff the less likely time to come to the community and that therefore they would have come less frequently welcome gentlemen yesterday i received instruction where is the registration and to try to centralize

sensitive politically the instruction was not go find political things and shred of the instruction was go find this sensitive political documents that we have in our files and women today and that's what i did some of those were subsequently others virtually well i think it is true that the secretary and i looked through his own boss i think other people with similar things that virtually anything that concerns the opposition contenders that sort of thing that that would have been politically damaging do anything with it thank you

democratic nomination to be specific i don't know the other actors they experienced a major concern of the opposition he's sixty one as insensitive carolina <unk> at that time and seventy and here's an extra or something like that really

was one of an extra and that's what happened and that clearly would've of documents are similar to the ones that i've got the chance to find out the reason that you would have is that on monday morning as a constructive role and i was asked to give a sense of the office at that point i cannot mr mcgregor was going to return monday morning washington and thinking that it was a copy and sensitive material that should have been destroyed now

the obvious thing for the first time you've been really busy and in new orleans yes it was not on it really made this statement as a matter of fact i have completely forgotten that action you think is reading the minority generally speaking you know trying to remember the first time it's a gracious semi realistic it was so

it was on a subsequent meeting with mr so that that has gotten that happened to him it was in a previous meeting it was in the previous days before the grand jury so what you are going to do the optimists you for your help this committee's yes it worries poor you used as a huge was the first time that i'd heard from an investigator lot it to investigators on that messaging was canceled haven't returned and the nature of the proceeding changed subsequently i was sitting about adventure and you're there on your phone call was going to go

on on that friday which was actually it was in the newspaper before i knew what was going to happen i mean in the newspaper that morning that i was to be subpoenaed that's right before this committee he's been calling him that morning at a church in leading i suggested there should be a third person there and we set a meeting and then i chose not to attend it's a thing well yes it that the nature of that was with this as

i understand that he did think that if there should be a third person there and he said well we'll have to find someone how but if we find you all line and parkinson who were counseled to the committee i said that would be acceptable but subsequently called mr ryan eleven o'clock that morning and said and i didn't think it was appropriate to testify yes he was they said you have to realize that if you have independent councillor summons independent who can give you advice that's the situation after a line he called me expecting to be there and i was

ten and then his response was extremely heavy and he felt that he wanted to know what i was doing he also indicated that event i survive in this committee and mr ryan in an apparently week we just discussed briefly in the nature of the evidence that provide and one of the pieces of evidence of course was the easel we mentioned that and i think that he said that was so was that i want this thing he also needed

it was nice there was a point on that day i think in one interview with him and then he says the recent stream concern that was innocent

that was disappointing to me yes well i think the nature of these justices that gesture indicating that he was going to have a meeting with mr mitchell and english to have some sort of alcohol use on which used visual