1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-03; Part 5 of 5

it's been power my conversation with my conversation with the president the only response by the president right now recall heart of every called my remarks was that we should continue our thorough aggressive investigation with respect to get all his assertion in paragraph three that later on that they may have thought that dean and repeated the conversation bean had said ok gray had heard no more on the subject he asked whether the president had spoken to me that i said he had on another matter that have now brought up this matter what may i could not have said that i thought the midst of being and repeated the conversation that i did not at any time though mr dean that i have

spoken to the president my last moreover show no call to our promise to being handled this is what mr dean on july six nineteen seventy two june july eleven nineteen seventy three i get asked a lot if the president had spoken to him about my car he said he had talked with the president but not on this subject i did tell him that i've heard no more on the subject from anyone with respect to get all his assertion that her for that great and said that us attorney had subpoenaed the financial records of the committee to reelect president it had been suggested to him that he stop its infighting could not one of his gun chautauqua the attorney general to see if there was any way to any legal way to do this he could not i have no absolutely no

recollection of anyone ever contacting these top twenty sixteen i believe i would recall certain events occur i would certainly have to record any such inquiry yesterday attorney general assistant attorney general of the united states attorney i simply do not know our general of us could have received this thought it is possible that we could have been discussing a news story if there was one about the fbi not subpoenaing appropriate records but i do not remember discussing this subject the general laws with respect to certain in progress for that quote he said that he had told the president in nineteen sixty eight it should be aware of his subordinates who would try to wear his commander in chief stripes unquote i probably said this job just because i had expressed has talked to the president in a letter to him just after his election in nineteen

sixty eight with respect general motors is stationed in baghdad five about resigning i have no memory of again discussing with general motors our respective resignations at this meeting john waters came to my office again on july twenty eight nineteen seventy two and eleven am to meet with me as he says in one of these memoranda to clarify the last memorandum he had given me and replied to inquiries from mr palmer a plea deal i now know that mr palm was a special agent assigned to the fbi alexandria va loans i do not recall remember the details of this meeting with any degree of precision it is possible that i recounted the details of this meeting domestic ballpark the midst of aids and you go one of them may have a memorandum and their files regarding for the fbi files may

contain other relevant information on mr cleo i know that i did have a telephone conversation with mr helms regarding mr cleo and this could very well have been the subject of the call and maybe mr helms on thursday july twenty seven nineteen seventy two at nine twenty five am i am quite certain that i was told by mr helms but mr cleo was an electronics engineer for the cia you have no connection with them that mr helms and i discuss mr cleo on july twenty seven nineteen seventy two ninth twenty five am even though i am quite certain that we get to have the conversation regarding mr cleo i just cannot be sure of the exact date in time i know that i discuss mr cleo mr fell on friday july twenty one nineteen seventy two along with three other matters in the meeting with them

and to thirty pm to three ten pm he made a lot of notes on this discussion was to plow maybe it will shed some light on his own inquiries reins to cleo at this point i would like to comment on some aspects of gentle breeze memorandum of this meeting with respect to get all those comments concerning furnishings equipment i have no recollection of dialogue is passing this information on to me that's why are cia activities whether they were not have significance for me in relation to watergate i probably get passed along those of the president and yet i have no specific recollection of billions own artillery closer talk at no time in any of my conversation with general motors to i recall i

remember saying to him a pleasure to have been brought to bear on meet any possible reference to pressure could only refer to the mexican matter the buck their ob la o dollars dollars and is so the cia national security dimension journalist and i may have been discussing the credibility and integrity of our two agencies and i could've told them that it began to look as if the mexican money chain was also a political contribution chain from texas contributors and that we're going to have to run it down in relation to the criminal investigation of the bugging of democratic about joe always told me that they intended to terminate the nine six five nine five nine a number of had no significance to me i did not know anything about such a number and certainly would not a last minute questions about this number simply because i would have believed it to be a number associated with cia

operations and i would not have made an inquiry is concerning his number i could have said to general walter as this is another thing to happen to us the outset of our tenure with our respective offices although i do not remember saying it to him on this particular occasion the only other cia and perhaps i can recall at this time are as follows on october eighteenth nineteen seventy to record albums visited maine said he had come to see me as a courtesy before he went to see the attorney general he said that one of his lawyers have met with this is the united states attorneys over the previous week mr helms also told me the cia was to provide documented answers to questions of the assistant united states attorney he did not tell me what the subject matter the nature of

the questions was and i did not ask him feeling that cia business was not my business that i had a hard time trying to figure out why he came to see me because this conversation was so general and non specific i assume that was the question had to do with watergate and cia's role in watergate if any however i did not question director helms about this and he did not offer to enlighten me journalist came to see me again on february twenty one nineteen seventy three at nine am my notice of this meeting show topics discussed and barlow national security projects of great sensitivity if the committee wants to hear about this meeting i would respectfully request that my testimony be taken in executive session dollars

came to see me again on thursday april twelve nineteen seventy three hundred and thirty seven am on one of the national security projects we discuss in the meeting february twenty one nineteen seventy three if the committee wants to hear about this meeting i respectfully request that my testimony be taken in executive session there's been hearsay testimony before this committee the fact that i was finished material from cia and sending photographs of garden libby standing in front of dr ellsberg's psychiatrist cops the statement records my entire recollection the receipt of information concerning on a really i never at any time was in possession of such photographs or knew of their

existence i also had and have no information related to any discussions between the white house ottoman justice and cia on the subject of retrieval by the cia cia information furnished to the department of justice mr dean amherst ehrlichman and mr evans offers an evening of june twenty eight nineteen seventy two i had known from any source whatever the existence of these particular file rv information and instructions i was to see that evening i arrived in the thirteenth opposite about six thirty pm that evening

for the purpose of discussing with him the many rumors and allegations concerning because of information from the fbi regarding the watergate investigation one of his secretary is totally go right on into his private office mr deane was in the office talking with mr lippman i remember being surprised that mr deans presence because i had not known that he would be at the meeting after the usual ratings were exchanged mr eckman said something very close to quote john has something that he wants to turn over you unquote i didn't notice that mr dean had in his hands two white little size photos it as my recollection that these voters were not been on boats at this time mr dean and told me that these files contain copies of

sensitive and classified papers of a political nature that howard hunt had been working on he said that they have national security implications i have absolutely nothing to do with watergate and have no bearing on the watergate investigation whatsoever even as latina mr olyphant said that these files should not be allowed to confuse our money the issues in the watergate tapes become a part of as to being said they should not become a part of rip i wanted a file but that he wanted to be able to say you're called upon later that he had turned all of our accounts files over to the fbi i distinctly recall mr dean saying that these files were political dynamite and clearly did not see the light of day

it is true that neither mr erlichman <unk> mean specially constructed maybe destroying the crops that there was and is no doubt in my mind that destruction was intended mr dean now mr goodman said or imply that i was being given the documents personally made to safeguard against leaks as i believe each of them has testified before this committee the white house regarding the fbi as a source of leaks the clear implication of the substance and tone was that these two files were to be destroyed and i interpreted this to be in order and the counsel of the president united states the issue in the presence of one of the two top assistants to the president of the united states

does my recollection the last run on boats in which to place the files i believe it was that means that legally into the opposite thing of votes and placed each file in a separate brown and book and mr edmonds in office and handed them to me although my memory is not perfectly clear on this time relieved mr dean then that mr eckman zappos and i stayed for five or ten minutes to discuss the rumors and allegations of leaks from the fbi these are the same rumors that had been rampant in the first week of the investigation i believe that i told mr eckman that i've spoken to all the agents assigned to the case and was quite confident that these leaks had not come from the fbi and then that literally means office with a two minute on boats containing the fox went to my car place the

files in my briefcase and proceeded to my apartment i placed a thousand a closet shelf under my shorts pocket to have really just like took them into the office and place them in my personal story the best of my our recollection i remove the files to my loan installment in connecticut in late september or early october nineteen seventy two and place them in a chest of drawers in the area just outside my bedroom i intended to them but i did not get around to doing so until after my illness hospitalization and convalescence the latter half of november and december i distinctly recall that i've been enduring christmas week of christmas and household paper trash that had accumulated immediately following christmas this point i had not read or examine the files that immediately the book before putting them in the

fire i opened one of the pilots it contained that would appear to be a cop is a top secret state department cables that i read the first live i do not recall the exact language but the text of the cable implicated officials of the kennedy administration and the assassination of president jim crow south vietnam i had no reason and that that the authenticity of the cable and was shaken at what iran i found through the other cables in this file they appeared to be built because of the first two i've rarely come through the second of the two thousand though to vatican claimed the onion skin copies of correspondents i did not observe the subject matter of the correspondents and do not the day of my own knowledge know

what it was as the team as described in testimony before this committee a conversation that may have a department of justice lunch in which he plays during her shortly after january of this year at which i allegedly killed and the and kai on not disclosing my receipt of the documents and inform him that i have destroyed them i recall no such meeting our conversation with mr dean of the department of justice luncheon and my records do not indicate any such luncheon meeting i shall now support for the committee my recollection of all conversations i've had witnesses being driven and others about the june twenty eight meeting and its aftermath i believe it was the dean called me at my home in connecticut in late

october or early november as i recall it he asked me on that occasion i still have to file he gave to me i said i did and that they were in a safe place in my home gets done and i believe mr deane asked if i had read them and i told them truthfully that i have not the sequence of the next discussion about these vows are somewhat hazy in my mind my best recollection now is that over a span of several days during my confirmation hearings in early march of this year i had discussions on the subject with assistant attorney general peterson john dean and john ehrlichman in that order i believe that mr peterson called me and told me that didn't have stepped out of an interview being conducted by assistant united states attorneys and mr peterson's presence mr peterson

it turned to file complaints they having nothing to do with watergate over to me mr peterson told me that in funding to take it up with me and ask me have been have done so i told mr peterson truthfully that dean had not i certainly did not acknowledged mr peterson that mr dean had turned over in the sec's boston me but i do not recall mr petersen asking me that question and honestly i must acknowledge the possibility however that mr peterson made last may have been had turned the research boston and if he did ask i am certain that i would have denied we see such a while because of the instructions i received a masters ehrlichman and being on june twenty eight the information i have been given about their national security implications and the injunction that they should never see the light that

i recall calling john dean i'm asking him whether you it i then asked him in effect the fetal mr peterson all star namely that the files were given them even jonathan's presence with the assurance that they have nothing to do with watergate or sensitive and classified with national security overtones should not be a part of the fbi files for political dynamite and clearly should not see the light of day you said it as i have been assured these files for the character you described and had nothing to do with watergate he ought not to be discussing them at all but that if he did he should at least tell mr peterson the full story of their

significance and the instructions to me within a few days after this call this is a conversation with a nominee john ehrlichman tape recorder i believe this committee has a transcript of that day i believe this color be it call reflected in my losses made on march six nineteen seventy three at six thirty four pm i come to this conclusion and substantial part because of the opposite of the conversation the transcript reports me as informing ehrlichman during my confirmation hearings this morning members of the judiciary committee receive copies of a letter from the american civil liberties union objecting to my off for the members of the judiciary committee that examined the entire fbi wanted a file the transcript of my confirmation hearings reveals that such a letter was received by the committee on the morning of march six

the transcript of this conversation with mr erlichman also reveals the price that mr eckman back quote i am being pushed up we are in certain areas and i'm not giving an engine you know those areas on foot the assumption is that they made by mr eckman and by various members of this committee in their questioning of mr erlichman at the seven areas in which i was being pushed was it received by the fbi at the conference of hindsight in fact the subject of the contents of months they did not arise until much in my confirmation hearings until the next day march seven i was being pushed however with respect to my turning over fbi reports the muscatine i was clear to me that my relationship with mr cain was coming under increasing criticism by members of the judiciary committee there is no doubt that i was concerned that the

committee would do as it subsequently get inquiry into the circumstances of the turnover at the fbi have a conference at one say because of the instructions i have received from us within intimate moment to files were given to me and my absolute conviction that these files to need political and national security implications had nothing whatsoever to do with watergate i had no intention of volunteering for the committee my receipt and destruction of these files and did not do so i would not and did not make any false statements under oath but i acknowledge that i purposely did not volunteer this information to the committee i justified my medicines not only because i don't believe in the rectitude of the administration whose nominee i was and in the integrity of the men gave me the thousands that because my bleep look at the pile of state department

cables that confirmed for me what i thought were overwhelming considerations of national security i had no way of knowing that the cables were fabricated i might add that i know then what i've since learned that i was being left in mr erlichman scully didn't freeze to quote hang there unquote and quote twisted slowly in the land unquote it was in this context and knowing that mr dean have already told mr peterson about the files that i had my conversation with mr erlichman on march six there is no doubt that the message i intended to get mr erlichman was to tell ms thirteen was that he should tell mr clean that we should not disclose the delivery committee of those files at about ten thirty pm on the evening of april

fifteenth nineteen seventy three i received a call from a sterling his remarks were very sharp chairs and to the point he's simply too mean that beam had been talking to prosecutors for sometime and quote we unquote thank you ought to know about it was obvious from his tone and the man in which he spoke with no questions were invited an unwise he was hanging up the phone i miss the beginning john avello john like the fall and it is my firm recollection that he started talking right away and made no response shortly after eleven pm vatican call me again this time his remarks were just shocked tourists and to the point he said dean has been talking about the files he gave you and you better check your whole car i said

john those papers were destroyed long ago again it was plain and obvious from his tone in the manner in which he spoke that no questions were invited and none were asked both of these goals were extremely short duration less than fifteen seconds he is man i was fast talking and he seemed tense i know that mr eckman has testified that in these conversations i told him i would deny receiving a thousand and asked them to support me in that the nile i have absolutely no recollection of such an exchange and believe that both conversations were substantially as i describe i realized that the conversations may have been recorded on monday april sixteenth nineteen seventy three a ten fifty four am assistant attorney general peterson came to see me he said that mr dean told

prosecutors he had turned over to have months whilst to me i deny mr peterson went on to say that mr dean said these two thousand and nothing to do with watergate he also said that mr bing told the prosecutors that mr eckman had said to him being you drive across the bridge each day throw them in the river i was extremely troubled that might be another mr peterson i slept little offended at night on tuesday april seventeen nineteen seventy three at approximately nine am i placed the color mr peterson all my private life he was not in and i left work he called me back and at my request we met in my office later in the morning i started out meaning by admitting that dina given me two white manila thousand americans out he asked if i had them when i told him i had learned and he asked if

i knew what was in them i told him i had not read the files you said the assistant united states attorneys will want to be for the federal grand jury i told him i would go willingly and quote tell it to them straight unquote on wednesday april twenty fifth nineteen seventy three i telephoned sen wyden we're asking to meet with him for a week i had thought about this matter and a senator like a staunch and palin supported me in his warm friendship i had a duty to tell him that these two thousand yet my team was so big that it was hard to pick up a phone and call a senator like her and i met twice that day in my office and again the next day i told him the manner in which i receive the files that i had not read them and that i had torn in half and drawn them in my barn wastebaskets under my desk in my office on july

three nineteen seventy two after returning from a visit to san diego in phoenix field of asians we discuss the subject of great length and a question i persisted in my assertions to him that i had not read them and that i'd thrown them in modern wastebasket in my office on july three nineteen seventy two i really cannot explain why they are the senate to tell senator like her all the facts at this time and made a mistake with him concerning the day i destroyed a thousand my knowledge of what one of them can play a sense of shame i suppose i felt in some irrational way that i would have that in his eyes a fire destroyed them promptly and government i have subsequently revealed all the facts of the matter is senator like her is that this committee the prosecutors and the grand jury at the time i accepted the two thousand dean america

at the time i destroy them and on the several occasions by adam i've been out and repeat listen on april sixteen and which i resisted disclosure of the fact that i have i believe that i was acting faithfully loyally properly and legally pursuant to instructions given a bike up assistance to the president of the united states i have come to believe our what i should have realized then that my acceptance of the documents in the first place and my keeping them out of the normal fbi files was a grieving just get by destroying them and resistance of disclosure only compound of the year but the documents were not in fact watergate evidence while legally significant has not lessened my present believe that i committed myself to be

used to inform a mere political chill i shall carry the burden of that act with me always there's a gentlemen i conclude my state minister the peak to peak is bleak mr gray the committee this committee got the carcass of your statement late and get neither cache of all national committee

have not had an opportunity to study it and it's an almost all popping up about this and very few have no objection the committee will postpone the interrogation until monday so the committee now has a full weekend of angry questions for l patrick gray and there will undoubtedly be many and maybe some follow up questions for other witnesses as well such as how the white house mainly john dean use are quickly of the key roles played by dahlberg mr barry allen cash transactions and having learned so much about them without alerting finance chairman murray stands as to what was actually occurring and why if both waters and ray were determined to resign before agreeing to compromise their agencies was there such an incomplete initial investigation of the

reich and they were probably be questioned also about yesterday's charge by convicted watergate conspirators james mccord that the fbi was not allowed to pursue any major threat in the investigation without clearing it first with the justice department officials from the justice department are also scheduled to take the stand next week before the committee goes wrong for its summer recess the future course of the committee's work and that's peter garrett talked about that today with committee chief counsel sam dash mr cash i get the feeling that the committee is continuing few minutes of continuing coming up with new evidence to keep the hearing which brings me to the question of when mr carson appears you intended into a full scale investigation of the united kingdom and an emmy for that question i don't believe in a few minutes i'll just keep hearing that is not the purpose to keep the hearing going to visit purpose to complete the investigation and that human associated with it because we are

possibly can to an investigation we've noticed that investigation investigation continues on my staff is constantly interviewing witnesses and tonight will be interviewing witnesses and over the weekend and obviously when you continue investigation always coming up with new information as successful investigation this produces this information that we produce the hands or just a continued effort to do the complete job on a resolution to all of the facts about the problem now with a lot of his cousins parents when they resume again he will only be called at that time for the purpose of the discussion involving whenever the relationship we had with avoiding either because you'll recall if we lose in in september the committee is that that decision is aware that will resume hearings in september to finish the witnesses that have not been caught in this part where did the committee feels that one completes the few witnesses now

have the un's today and the former attorney general findings john peterson that with the fact that and this this this week beginning of campaign finance and we include mr carson and that's the senate will go forward in the entire area of the itt issue because the itt the question the investigation i could see the city of seven million and test case the three hundred thousand dollar contribution was to be made that comes within the purview of the revolution and it's going to you know that most of the memorandum which i introduced into evidence was that basically the campaign maybe that and that you may not start the hearings in that area until sometime a lot of force member other key figures in the itt key officials declined instance of attorney

general mitchell there would not be asked about this now they would be presumably rick openness of the focus on those findings the pugh's next week that they will not be discussions as questions concerning his knowledge cracks relating to the war the case for the cover finally what's the status of the committee's last week the white house was going to be fun just as an investigation of lawyers asked if they're working around the clock to research that is necessary that the filing a complaint which in a stark was very careful and certain that our complaint is the best possible it should file in accordance with no and though we should be able to fat content sometime next week i will be working this weekend on a possibly monday and the committee will have a chance to look at a man sure we can file a sometime next week watching areas where this most of this week has been an associate in some versions of the georgetown university law school professor jack murphy

jack we've now come to the end of eight weeks of years thirty five days i think it is and more about to conclude this physicians to death said what we know were we ride the remaining here to finding out the truth do you think well i think we are somewhat mayor but it would be presumptuous on my part to say how much butter and of course what the truth or oh five maybe i'm abstaining of a conservative logos on the hill wants a really what they think and i think that's appropriate for the stage the proceedings there were conflicts in today's testimony comparing with the testimony of previous weeks and even this week you had for example the case of mr gray's testimony conflict with mr othman with respect to the contents of a phone conversation april fifteenth this year about the destruction of the tapes he was in conflict with the us to being on the road we might appoint a natural conversation every march of this year at the justice department it was in conflict with the us something about their general

waters had said i thought and in general like conflict was not so much a matter of substance but a matter of style except on the question of what walter said to him on june twenty third one was left that meeting between haldeman ehrlichman help themselves and went to graze office recall that walters was very clear that he didn't represent this to be a final cia judgment what is that there might be some kind of compromise of covert operations in mexico the fbi to go ahead gray said that he had the distinct impression of what the generals telling him was that he would be likely to disrupt those corporations that is a i'm a problem for me because i'm still a little bit concerned about the stance that shallow waters have been leaving that chronicle june twenty third meeting with goldman what was said there or was himself is in conflict with pullman as to whether or not at the june twenty thirteen it was a day of discussion about the mexican money or mexican actually hallman said he didn't

recall in the fashion which you can recall so many things and john waters of the cause of his death when he would stand on his recollection and faculty that had said that sobered by the fact that the holden is represented by their orders to have given him pretty much the direction that dirty go down and tell mr gray that there were problems to this investigation showed the table well thank you very much today's testimony dealt with two of the nation's foremost intelligence agencies the fbi and the cia of the watergate spotlight is also uncovered some other rappers to gather political intelligence impact peter carey has a report on new charges of political spot united states army intelligence agents in europe last year hamas supporters of democratic presidential candidate george mcgovern according to senator lowell weicker a number of writers that turned the documents that show that a group of pro mcgovern american civilians in

berlin were subject to wiretapping surveillance and having their mail opened these documents are classified intelligence agents another one connecticut senator of the same people who have extended their activities to the pentagon and the brennan well as i indicated a report to know the armed services i just don't have the resources or the capability of conducting a thorough investigation on the evidence i've got indicate exactly i told you know who directed at how extensive it is said or that's something to be invested in maintaining status on what my sources i'm talking about first there was ambassador richard

helms and then generals robert cushman and vernon waters and now l patrick gray these four men the witnesses of the last two days have more in common than a maturity of eight immigration their hair they all brought distinguished unblemished careers to their involvement in or brushes with watergate and each has now been forced to come before this committee and the us for the rest of us are publicly confess to having done things that is only wish they had and the grave areas of course mr helms lamenting his ok to let cia psychologists and technicians this is what the white house farmers to mr gray's extremely poignant admission that he destroyed evidence and that he shall carry the burden of that act with him always from a legal standpoint it may be that some time in the future some court may ultimately decide that won her all before was a protest and the toll of crime that is now called watergate but strictly on a human level they must also be read and written down in the final watergate stories as victims of the true if there was ever any doubt

now for the terrible tentacles of this tragedy ultimately reached for man named helms cushman walters and gray and supplied the answer to me at least i will be back monday night for robert macneil and peter carey and jim lehrer on a nice weekend from washington you've been watching gavel to gavel videotape coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities this coverage is made possible by grants for special events coverage from the corporation for public broadcasting and the ford foundation and has been a production of unpack that a vision of a greater washington educational telecommunications association <unk> and then ruby on