The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Interview with Willy Brandt

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. More bad economic news: a quickened inflation rate in September and a growing trade deficit today caused a further decline in the value of the dollar. In Frankfurt, for instance, it reached a new low -- one dollar to 1.75 marks. This symbolic but continuing challenge to the supremacy of the American economy comes just as the United States is being asked to show fresh and vigorous leadership comparable to the Marshall Plan days, to alleviate the economic plight of the third world. The man making that demand is the West German statesman Willy Brandt. Tonight: his views of the world that faces us. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, it`s an appropriate coincidence that we talk to Willy Brandt tonight. Today Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin were announced as joint winners of the Nobel Peace Prize; in 1971 the recipient was Willy Brandt, honored for making the first agreements and gestures which led to the end of the Cold War, to d‚tente between East and West. These and other achievements of Willy Brandt as the leader of West Germany and as an international figure are well known here in the United States, but how he got there isn`t. He has never made any secret of the fact, for instance, that he was born the illegitimate son of a shop girl, his grandfather was a truck driver, his stepfather a bricklayer. As a teenager he fought the Nazis and was forced finally to flee the country. He lived and studied in Norway, returning to Germany after the war to enter politics with the Social Democratic Party. He moved up through the party ranks in the city government of Berlin, becoming the Mayor of Berlin in 1957. It was during his nine-year tenure as mayor that the Berlin Wall was erected by the East German Communists, that President Kennedy came and delivered his famous "I am a Berliner" speech. He became Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany in 1969, resigning in 1974 after his administration was shaken by the discovery that one of his chief aides was an East German spy. He remains the head of the Social Democratic Party, but most of his time and energy in recent months has been devoted to improving relations between the developing and the industrialized nations of the world. He chairs an international commission which is to come up with a report and recommendations on the subject next year. Willy Brandt is in New York with Robin. Robin?

MacNEIL: Mr. Brandt, welcome. First of all, on the sort of present economic news, why, viewed from your perspective, is the dollar in such trouble?

WILLY BRANDT: Well, I think if I take for example the relationship between the dollar and the Deutsche mark, it was not fair at the time when we had to pay four marks for a dollar. The right rate would have been somewhere between where it was then and where it is now. By the way, I`m convinced we are going to face a new strengthening of the dollar, the American economy is stronger than what it looks now. And we have seen examples that one can overcome difficulties of this kind. I mean, in my own country we had an inflation rate of seven; we`ve brought it down to below three. I`m afraid it will go up to 3.5 again next year, but we will have some more growth, some less unemployment; and what I believe in is that one should follow the road which was discussed at the Bonn summit this summer. Things do not work from one month to the other, but if we get a good coordinated policy of the Western industrialized countries I think this also will be favorable for the balance of payments situation and the monetary situation of the United States.

MacNEIL: The Bonn summit called upon Mr. Carter, among other things, and he promised, to reduced some of the dependence of this country on foreign oil. The president of the Common Market Commission today asked Mr. Carter to do even more drastic things than the present energy bill permits. Do you feel that the United States is doing enough -- again, as much as Europe would like her to do -- to try and solve these problems of inflation, growth and oil dependency?

BRANDT: Well, it is very difficult to make statements on that, because those of us who have followed things know how difficult it is to get agreement on a program. Personally, I believe that the president of the European Commission is right, that it would be good to go on reducing the dependency upon so much oil from abroad.

MacNEIL: And in practical terms in this country that would mean the President sort of instituting his own controls on imports, or taxes. Would you be in favor of doing that -- is the situation that dangerous, do you think?

BRANDT: I think something along that line should be done, yes.

MacNEIL: You said in a speech last night that the present international economic situation was failing the developed countries of the world. Could you tell us how it is? Is the dollar a symptom of that failure, or is it broader than that?

BRANDT: No, no. What we have to deal with are various crises. We have the disruption of the international monetary system as it was established after World War II. We have the energy problems, we have employment problems, we have five, six different, but to a certain degree interconnected, problems which altogether have brought about the structural crisis of the world economy. And my belief is, contrary to what many people still think, that speeding up the process of development abroad may become one of the main instruments also to solve our own problems. For Europe, in any case, I`m convinced that our new jobs, jobs for our young people and their children, to a high degree will depend upon new markets.

MacNEIL: Well, we`re going to come to your concern for the third world in a second. Before we do, can I just ask you this: can the developed world -- the United States, Western Europe and Japan -- do any thing dramatic about helping the third world until it can come up with a system that can resolve these problems of inflation, unemployment and trade unbalances?

BRANDT: We cannot wait. I mean, one cannot say let`s postpone those problems which have to do with our relationship with the South until we have solved our problems, but it is encouraging to learn that many of our partners now within the developed world understand that it is also in their interest that we solve our problems. So there certainly is an interconnection, and I agree that we would be able to do more than we can do today had we come through these difficult problems which we are faced with almost every day now.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Now to Mr. Brandt`s major interest right now, the Independent Commission for International Development Problems. That`s the official name for the group he heads right now. It started its work last year, its mission: chart a way to close the gap between the rich and the poor nations of the world, the so-called North-South dilemma. The facts are fairly well known. The industrialized nations -- North America, Europe, the Soviet Union and Japan-- have an annual gross national product of nearly five billion dollars. The South -- Latin America, Africa and Asia excluding Japan-- have a combined $1.2 billion gross national product. And yet nearly three billion of the people in the world live in the Southern Hemisphere, compared to just over one billion in the North. Mr. Brandt, you have said that unless that gap is closed this could lead to war. Do you mean that literally?

BRANDT: Even literally this could happen; if the gap widens it could lead to unrest, unrest could lead to irresponsible actions, this could lead to at least regional wars, perhaps even greater conflicts. So I think that development policy also is part of a peace-preserving policy, I believe that.

LEHRER: Well, when you use a word like "development" or "cooperation" between the North and the South, are those code words for aid, for money - is that what you`re talking about?

BRANDT: No, not only. I`m thinking about a package. Just to give you an example, the poor countries, especially those who have or possess raw materials, they want more stabile prices for their products. The industrialized countries want more stabile access to those raw materials, so there is a mutuality of interest, and we can take a number of examples. No, aid in the old-fashioned sense of the rich helping the poor is only part of the problem. My commission is working under the headline of discovering, exploring and spelling out the mutuality of interests.

LEHRER: Is it really comparable, then, to the Marshall Plan after World War II?

BRANDT: No, it is not. Because the Marshall Plan had to do with a situation where Europe was damaged, factories destroyed, cities destroyed and what not. But Europe had skilled workers and technicians and administrators; what was needed was to bring labor and capital together while in the developing world, most of the countries there, the process of a certain transfer of resources has to take place at the same time while education, training has to go on. So therefore I do not use the word Marshall Plan for what now has to be done. But I want the United States and Canada and Europe and Japan to understand there is one similarity, and that is that a reasonable program to counteract these disparities, as a long-term process but even as a mid-term process, will be in our own interest. The Marshall Plan obviously was primarily in the interests of the Europeans, but it was also a good program for the United States.

LEHRER: Your commission specifically: there have been a lot of commissions and meetings and dialogues and papers and books written on this subject; none of them, frankly, Mr. Brandt -- I think you`ll probably agree with me -- come to much. Why is your commission going to be any different, do you think?

BRANDT: I`m not sure that I`m the right one to answer that question. Of course I have to beware of the danger that we may be able to do not much more than just to publish another book. If that should happen, I would say greater damage has been done to mankind than just to add another book to the library of publications on development problems. No, I believe that -- I hope, at least, and we will work hard -- to put something on paper which may influence decision makers both in the industrialized and in the developing countries, and also to impress upon enlightened public opinion - - remember, Winston Churchill, since we spoke about the time after World War II, perhaps I may point to the fact that Winston Churchill judged his main contribution to the World War II victory perhaps were words. So words sometimes can influence the historical development.

LEHRER: Do you see that to be the commission`s major achievement when it`s over, or do you feel that your commission has clout to follow up on those words?

BRANDT: No, we will -- of course we cannot compete with governments We can present recommendations and then hope that others will pick them up. We will finish our work when we have published our report, but we will -- if I may add this -- I mentioned decision makers in both industrialized and developing countries because if we for example say that hunger must be fought, and I think it can be fought towards the end of the century, this demands certain actions which have to be taken in the richer countries, but also it demands something from those who are responsible in the developing countries; and I think by now many of our friends there are ready to understand that both parts have to do their job in various fields.

LEHRER: All right, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Yes; Mr. Brandt, how important is it to bring the Communist world into this effort to improve the lot of the third world?

BRANDT: You see, when Lester Pierce, in the Canadian, made his report ten years ago he just mentioned that there was a problem; he said he had not been able to deal with it but there was a problem. If I now speak to at least part of the leaders in the third world, they say that they do not like the idea that what is called the North-South dialogue goes on being a dialogue between the South and the Western part of the North. They say that even the conference of the non-aligned countries recently in Belgrade said -- including those developing countries who call themselves Socialist -- said that their partners should be the industrialized countries, as either they are capitalist or they are Communist, as I prefer to say ... some people say Socialist. Now, at the same time I think that there is a growing understanding, especially among some of the East European leaders -- the Poles, the Hungarians and others -- that they must show interest in those problems which have to do with their position in future international trade. They are interested in a future international monetary system, not to talk about the energy crisis. If you speak to an energy minister in Budapest today, you will see that his experience does not differ very much from the experience of an energy minister in Brussels or in The Hague. So there is a growing understanding, and I think it is fair also that the developing countries expect something from not only the West of the North.

MacNEIL: Why are there no commissioners from Communist countries on your commission?

BRANDT: This would have been too early, because until a year ago, and sometimes even now, we hear the official Russian pieces, they have said -- and some of them still say -- that they are not responsible for what they call the heritage of colonialism. But this is interpretation of the past. The developing countries want answers to the questions which lie ahead of us, and therefore I think we must try to convince the Eastern leaders -- some of them already, I think, work on this -- we must convince the others that it is in their own interest to participate in serious discussions on, as I said, future conditions of trade with the other parts of the world, energy, monetary problems, et cetera.

MacNEIL: You said in a recent interview that the younger elite in the Soviet Union were more oriented towards integrating the Russian economy with the economies of the rest of the world. What evidence do you have for that, is that just conversational, anecdotal evidence, or...?

BRANDT: We had some of our colleagues from my commission over in the Soviet Union this summer and they spoke to experts from the institutes, some from the ministries, and my colleagues -- I wasn`t present myself, but my colleagues when they returned told me that they were very much impressed because they did not have to quarrel about figures, about prospects for the eight years, and when they spoke off the record they found a good deal of understanding for the necessity, looked upon from the others` point of view, the necessity of a high degree of international economic integration.

MacNEIL: Which could have quite an effect on our economies as well as the third world economies, if the new generation of leadership in the Soviet Union saw it that way.

BRANDT: Could, yes.

MacNEIL: You don`t think much.

BRANDT: Well, I`m not sure that it will move fast enough, because I very much believe in the necessity of discussing things and wherever possible even making arrangements with the Soviet Union because this is necessary in the interest of world peace; but at the same time I know it`s a very conservative regime they have, and they take much longer time than they take many other places before they make decisions.

MacNEIL: Thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Speaking of that regime, Mr. Brandt, how would you assess the health of d‚tente generally right now?

BRANDT: It hasn`t been too good, and I mean in Europe we have achieved a higher degree of trade relations, cultural relations; looked upon from the German point of view, I could add that the agreements which have been made have been to the advantage of many thousand people who have been able to move where they could not move before, but there we are. The conference in Belgrade recently, the first follow-up conference of the Helsinki conference on European cooperation and security, didn`t carry very far. So I think not much more will happen now before SALT-II has come to a conclusion. Personally I think there`s a good chance that you may get -- you I say, the Americans and the Russians -- may get a second SALT agreement, agreement in other words on limitation of strategic armaments. If this happens within the next few months, then personally I think that there may be a chance in another year`s time from there on to get a first limited result of the Vienna talks which have been going on for five years now, the Vienna talks on certain limitations of troops and armaments in Central Europe. If this then happens this could create better preconditions for the second follow-up of the Helsinki conference 1980 in Madrid.

LEHRER: You`ve had a lot of dealings with Chairman Brezhnev through the years. Is he genuinely interested in reducing the arms race and reducing tension between East and West, or is there still back there some where a desire on his part, on the Soviets` part, to gain an advantage?

BRANDT: It`s true that I have discussed these problems with him several times when I was in government; I have also had the opportunity to discuss things with him later on. Our latest meeting was in May this year. I think he is a convinced Communist; otherwise, I think, he couldn`t be at the top of the Russian setup. But -- I`m convinced he wants peace. Perhaps one should add that if one makes it easy for him and others, they would exploit the situation, but I think he wants peace. When I started to speak with him about these things, what he told me then sounded almost like what Senator Humphrey told me at the same time, just to give you an idea about how he expressed his views when one spoke ...well, alone, or just with a few other people around.

LEHRER: Well, look, the debate over the SALT-II treaty has already begun here in the United States and some of it at least revolves around the age- old postwar question of whether or not the Soviet Union and the Communists can be trusted. Can they?

BRANDT: One must negotiate without illusions, one must always make it sure that situations and agreements could not be easily exploited; but I think it is reasonable to base one`s policy upon the suggestion that also the Russian leaders are interested in the survival of mankind.

LEHRER: Here you were, a man who had fostered a whole new spirit of cooperation with the Communist world, and yet they put a spy right in your office. Did that give you second thoughts about d‚tente, or do you still have second thoughts about d‚tente as result of that experience?

BRANDT: It was a shock at the time, but the shock had more to do with my lack of ability to understand people. I mean, I thought I would have been able to know if I could rely upon someone or not; I couldn`t. The Russians, by the way, didn`t put him there, there are others who did so. No, it did not influence my basic judgments on the necessity of reducing tensions. It wasn`t very polite they did it, but I think we live in a world where there are agents in various places, and I couldn`t exclude on any given situation someone from the West would have been in the neighborhood of the first man in the Eastern part of Germany.

LEHRER: All right. Robin?

MacNEIL: Turning back to Western Europe, next spring there are going to be the first elections to a European parliament. You are going to be a candidate in those elections?

BRANDT: I have to; I hesitated because the election campaign will go on when I still have to work on my report of the North-South issues. I have to run because my party wants me to run, the Chancellor cannot so the party leader must. And so we will have those elections in June and then start work in the autumn of next year.

MacNEIL: You, it`s suggested, would make a very suitable first president of that parliament if there were a Social Democrat majority, with you as the leader of the Socialist International and leader of the Social German Democrats. Is that a job you`d like?

BRANDT: No. But let me say there will be no Social Democratic majority, no political group will have a majority; but without being arrogant I think I could say I could get a majority because some of my Christian Democratic friends have told me that they would vote for me -- not those from Germany but those from some of the other countries of the community. No, I will not be a candidate for president of the European parliament because I have to take care of my responsibilities at home, and even if I`m through with the North-South issue I have to participate in a number of other international activities. So I will limit my activities in the European parliament to participate in some of the more important debates.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you very much for joining us this evening, Mr. Brandt. Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: That`s all for tonight. We`ll be back on Monday night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.