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ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Jimmy Carter, candidate presumptive of the Democrats, continued his highly visible search today for a fitting Vice Presidential candidate. Keeping his own real opinions as secret as ever, Carter permitted two more hopefuls to come down to Plains, Georgia.
Senator Walter Mondale of Minnesota underwent a three hour grilling and later said he`d be willing to give up his Senate career for a Vice Presidential chance. Later Senator John
Glenn of Ohio was granted a similar audience. Earlier in the week, Carter flew Senator Muskie down to bare his soul and may have sessions later with Congressman Peter Rodino of New Jersey and Senator Henry Jackson. Carter has also let it be known that he`s still considering Senator Frank Church and Senator Adlai Stevenson is mentioned as a possibility.
Whether all this is a heavy-handed device for keeping a little suspense alive for the Democratic convention next week, or a more serious attempt than usual to improve Vice Presidential selection is what we examine tonight. In particular, we want to look at what this pilgrimage of senators to Plains tells us about Carter himself and how he arrives at difficult decisions. Jim.
JIM LEHRER: Until recently, Robin, the selection of the Vice President of the United States received about as much attention as the Vice President himself . . . little or none.
When the Republic began, the candidate who came in second in the race for President automatically became Vice President. But in 1800 bitter enemies, Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr tied for the Presidency with the House of Representatives resolving it finally in favor of Jefferson. As the result of having a President and a Vice President who detested one another, the system was changed. And in 1804 came the 12th Amendment to the Constitution requiring separate election of the President and the Vice President. They began to run as teams shortly thereafter, much like they still do.
Now the business of the Presidential candidate handpicking his running mate caught on in 1831 when the parties switched from a congressional caucus to a national convention system.
The selections for the most part have always been based on political considerations...the need to philosophically or geographically balance the ticket.
The major exception the handpicking came in 1952 when Adlai Stevenson opened up the Vice Presidential choice to the Fall Democratic convention. All of the current concern about the entire process, of course, is based on two realities... that six of the last 13 Presidents were Vice Presidents first, and that the present slipshod non-system produced two very recent disasters: Spiro Agnew who resigned in 1973 after being charged with bribery, and Thomas Eagleton, who withdrew from the 1972 Democratic ticket because he had undergone treatment for mental illness. Robin.
MACNEIL: Those disasters got a lot of people excited about reforming the Vice Presidential selection. The Democrats formed a huge commission under Senator Hubert Humphrey. It suggested a party screening committee, extending national conventions by a day or choosing the Vice Presidential candidate three weeks after the convention.
The party rejected all those ideas. The Kennedy School of Government at Harvard produced a major study but no one has adopted its ideas yet. More practically, Jimmy Carter recently dispatched his own pollster to find out who the voters would like best as his running mate and what Carter deficiencies needed balancing. Jim.
LEHRER: Dr. Peter Bourne is deputy manager of the Carter campaign and head of the candidate`s Washington office. A Carter advisor for the past five years, Bourne is credited with being the first Carter aide to suggest that Jimmy Carter seek the Democratic Presidential nomination.
Dr. Bourne, it seems as though your man has now winnowed his list primarily to include only Democrats with Washington experience. Why has he done that?
DR. PETER BOURNE: Well, I don`t know that he has. I`m not really authorized to speak on his behalf as far as what...
LEHRER: But the people who are going to Plains are all Washington folks...
BOURNE: Well, that certainly is true. If in fact those are the people who are on any kind of list that certainly would be the appearance at this time.
LEHRER: Well, is the Washington man, for Carter, the man who has, I guess, the ... correct me if I`m wrong but the responsibility to maintain contact between the Carter camp and the so-called
Washington political establishment. Did you advise Carter to go this route?
BOURNE: All of the decisions on the vice Presidency are his own personal decisions, and the process that he has gone through I think reflects his own methodical nature, his concern for very careful planning in the entire campaign. I think obviously we were somewhat fortunate in having this period in which it has been possible to go through this process, but I think basically it reflects his very careful nature in all the decisions that he makes.
LEHRER: Well, let me try that again. Based on your experience here in Washington, and whatever vibrations you have picked up from the Democratic leaders in Washington, did you advise him to, "Hey, Mr. Carter, maybe you might want to look for a Washington-oriented running mate"? I`m not talking about whether he`s going to take your advice, or what the end result is going to be, but from your perspective, did you--feel like this was a good thing for him to do?
BOURNE: Well, he Made it very clear that he wanted as his primary criterion somebody who was capable of being President if anything should happen to him. And obviously there is a substantial amount of talent here in Washington, people who are extremely experienced in government, although I know that he did not want. to exclude people who were not from Washington, as, of course, he himself was not.
LEHRER: I see. One final question on this. Based, here again, on your own soundings, is Carter still perceived in Washington by these folks as being an outsider and would the selection of `a Vice Presidential candidate who is one of them, a Washington person, help him with the so-called party establishment politically?
BOURNE: Yes, I think it might. I think that there has been a substantial change in Washington in the last few months, or even the last few weeks. I think a lot of people in Washington now are getting much more aware of Jimmy Carter. When it looked like he was going to be the nominee, people really made an effort to find out much more about him; they now are much more accepting than they were previously, and I think there has really been a very significant change in the attitude in Washington towards Carter in the last few weeks.
LEHRER: So in other words, it`s not as important now as it might have been, say, a few weeks ago.
BOURNE: I think probably not.
LEHRER: Alright, thank you very much, Doctor.
David Broder is the well-known chief political reporter and columnist for The Washington Post. Dave, you`ve watched a lot of Presidential candidates select their running mates; is there any thing fundamentally different about the way Carter is going about it?
DAVID BRODER: Yes, I can`t think of any other that`s really resembled this in taking place in advance of the convention this way in a semi-public audition process, and with the criteria for selection being made as explicit as they have been in this case.
LEHRER: He`s getting a lot of political mileage out of the process, with the people flying in and out of Plains...
BRODER: You`ve noticed that.
LEHRER: Yes, I`ve noticed that, right, and they must have a very busy airport at...what is it ... Americus, Georgia, isn`t it, where they actually come in, and then go over to Plains? But what`s your perception of it, Dave, is it a public relations show, or is there really a serious search for a Vice President?
BRODER: Well, nothing in politics is devoid of public relations aspect, but I think as a public relations ploy this one has more redeeming social value than most. It`s getting some Senators out into the country to see that part of the state of Georgia, which most of them have not seen before. It`s giving them a good look at the man who is likely to be the leader of their party, and not inconceivably the leader of the government for the next four years. I think it`s a very useful process, and if there is some publicity benefit for Governor Carter out of it, I don`t think that`s anything we should object to.
LEHRER: Well, let me be a little more blunt about it. Do you have the feeling that he`s already made up his mind and is going through a public exercise, or is he really still indefinite and going through a very serious...
BRODER: I have no indication that he has made up his mind, and people who have seen him in recent days say that they have the feeling that this is a genuine process. I think it`s important to remember that Governor Carter, unlike most of the recent Presidential nominees, really is a stranger to a lot of the major political figures in his party. And when he stresses personal compatibility as one of his three criteria, I do think that you ought to take seriously this kind of testing process in which he`s going to find out what the chemistry is between him and these people.
LEHRER: So the three hours of soul-searching, say, that he did with Senator Mondale and the long period he had with Senator Muskie, and I guess again today with Senator Glenn is a very legitimate function....
BRODER: It seems to me it`s the kind of thing which we ought not to discourage by being snide about it without having some reason to view it cynically.
LEHRER: How do you view the question that I put to Dr. Bourne, generally speaking, about the Washington political ... the Congress is really what we`re talking about, and their desire ... What would be the political mileage for Carter in selecting somebody from the Washington milieu?
BRODER: There are probably political risks for Carter in terms of the election, because he`s positioned himself as a critic of Washington and its wasteful ways, and obviously the Congress of the United States is not a terribly attractive or popular political institution. I don`t think he helps himself in short-term politics by going to Congress for a running mate, but unless I misjudge him, he is serious about...not just about winning an election, but about being able to govern. And having a Vice President who is respected by the Democrats in Congress and who can provide some kind of a liaison to those Democrats in Congress, would be terribly important to him if he becomes President.
LEHRER: Alright, Dave, thank you. Robin.
MACNEIL: Yes, I`d like to ask you gentlemen what you feel, starting with David, what do you think this manner of search tells us about the way Jimmy Carter operates? Is his style of decisions making as secretive and highly personal as has been reported in some quarters?
BRODER: Yes, it seems to be, it bears out that theory, and particularly when he`s been publicly sore with some of his associates, including Dr. Bourne, for their engaging in what seem to me to be rather innocent sort of speculation about where the search might be headed. Governor Carter has made it very clear in this, which is really his first important political decision, as,:the... what did you call him, Robin, the "nominee presumptive"?
MACNEIL: Yes.
BRODER: ...that nobody speaks for him, and that nobody is going to be allowed to speak for him. And that`s a pretty good clue, I think, as to how he intends to operate.
DMCNEIL: Do you agree with that, knowing him as well as you do, Peter Bourne? You mentioned the word "methodical"-- it`s something more than just methodical, is it not?
BOURNE: Well, I think it`s reflective of his administrative style in general. I think that when he was governor he would seek the broadest input he possibly could on an issue, get as many diverse opinions, assimilate them all, and then make up his own mind about where he wanted to come out. He`s not the kind of person who lets anybody tell him what the solution to a problem should be, or what position he should take. It is very much his own position and he feels that once he`s made the decision, he has to take the responsibility for it. And I think that he feels that a decision as crucial as this has to be very; very clearly his own decision.
MACNEIL: Okay, let`s pick this up in a moment. We`ve been joined by -- hot from the campaign -- by Pat Caddell, the head of Cambridge Survey Research, who was a pollster for George McGovern in 1972, and is now on Jimmy Carter`s staff. And it was Pat Caddell, whom we mentioned earlier, who was the pollster who was to take the survey on Vice Presidential possibilities in the country. Pat, I know you`ve just joined us and haven`t heard what`s preceded, but could I ask you, what was the motive for the survey that you took on the Vice President?
PAT CADDELL: Well, the motives were less than I think have often been attributed. Hamilton Jordan and I decided, in terms of another survey we were doing, just simply to take a look at recognition levels and support levels that various candidates might have, realizing that that`s not a very accurate barometer for people who are often unknown and often will receive exposure if they become the nominee. So it was really an effort just to measure recognition and to see if there was anyone who really helped or hurt within those limits. It was meant to be a minor input.
MACNEIL: I see. To your knowledge, is this the first time that a Presidential candidate, or likely Presidential candidate, has gone to this trouble to use the modern science of opinion surveying to have a look at the possible Vice Presidential candidates?
CADDELL: No, we did it in 1972, but no one seemed to notice, or care, or attribute the results to it; no, we did it in `72 as well...
MACNEIL: And was Eagleton one of those who was canvassed in that survey?
CADDELL: Yes, he was, in his own state.
MACNEIL: I see. Only in his own state.
CADDELL: Yes.
MACNEIL: What did your survey find, what do people want in a Vice President?
CADDELL: Well, I`d really rather not get into that. We didn`t really ask what attributes people look for, but I think that the same kinds of things that people look for in a President, in terms of competence, and things that are really important...
MACNEIL: Yeah. Did you find ... what we`ve...-been discussing, just to fill you in, what we`ve been discussing, one of the things as whether it would be an advantage or disadvantage to Carter to have a Washington-oriented figure (so many of those who`ve been going to Plains this week have been Washington-oriented figures) -- whether to have one running on the ticket with him would be an advantage or disadvantage ... did you find anything in your survey that indicated whether that would be a plus or minus?
CADDELL: Not really, I don`t think it`s going to be a minus, I suspect it may be a plus, that there`s something to be said for balancing a ticket.
MACNEIL: Uh-huh. Does the survey reveal Carter weaknesses which a certain kind of Vice President could satisfy, and I mean weaknesses in the traditional political sense. Now, you`ve been reported as believing that among the 50 million Catholics in the country, that he`s not viewed quite as ecstatically as he is among people of Protestant persuasion, and therefore a Catholic running mate, at least you`ve been reported as believing, might be a good balance. Was that indicated by the...
CADDELL: well, I really don`t want to get into what was found or not, but I think the point on that is that if you look at comparative strengths and weaknesses of people that Jimmy Carter is a candidate who comes from the South, who has shown tremendous strength in non-traditional Democratic areas, rural areas, among Protestant voters, suburbanites, in the South and the Midwest. And to some extent we`ve not run as well in the primaries in the Northeast or industrial areas as we did in the South and the Midwest, so I think it`s.-,.there`s an idea there that perhaps in the traditional sense you might want someone who had helped in those...
MACNEIL: Traditional regional ticket balancing kind of thing...
CADDELL: Well, not so much regional, but just also in type. Jimmy Carter is still very much an unknown figure to a lot of people in the country, and they`re going to raise legitimate doubts about him-as they would any challenging nominee. Is he qualified, is he competent, does he have the experience? All those are normal process questions and will be answered in the next couple of months.
MACNEIL: We asked Peter Bourne a moment ago whether he, in his Washington position, had recommended that a Washington figure might be a good idea, and I think he said that he had recommended that. Are you, as reported, recommending that it be a northern Catholic?
CADDELL: No. I`m not really recommending, in that sense, anyone specifically. I think it`s an option.
MACNEIL: Did I misunderstand you, Dr. Bourne?
LEHRER: He fudged that question, remember, Robin?
MACNEIL: I see. I see. Well, now, let`s go back to what we were discussing before Pat came in. What this says about Jimmy Carter`s ... the nature of Jimmy Carter`s decision-making...Is it true, Peter Bourne, as reported, that when he was appointing a replacement for Senator Russell in Georgia, when Jimmy Carter was still the Governor, that he kept that decision secret from his closest aides until the day or the-evening before he announced it at a press conference?
BOURNE: I was not working for Governor Carter at the time, but I understand that that, in fact, was the case, that it was announced to the staff the night before.
MACNEIL: How does this make the staff feel, to have a man who is playing his cards so close to his chest, how does that make you feel?
BOURNE: Well, I think we know and understand and appreciate his style, and it`s his way of doing things, and I think we are really very happy with it. We appreciate his reasons for doing it, and I think we agree with them.
MACNEIL: I see. Well, that may tell us something about Jimmy Carter as President, :16f he ends up as President. Jim?
LEHRER: Former Massachusetts Governor Endicott Peabody holds a rare distinction: he`s the first man in U.S. history to campaign actively in primaries for his party`s Vice Presidential nomination: He ran in 37 states before the 1972 Democratic convention.
Governor, you`re a Carter supporter, I understand; let me ask you: how do you feel about the way he`s selecting a running mate?
ENDICOTT PEABODY: I think he`s going about it so far beautifully. There`s only one further step he can take which would satisfy me completely, and that is after screening, or sieving, all the candidates that he has in a very statesmanlike way, giving the country some idea of the qualities of the candidates, allowing them to look them over themselves; then I would hope he would find who was compatible with him and whom he could serve well with, and he would say to the convention, "Look. Give me any of those that I suggest, three or four or five, and I`d be glad to run with them." And then throw open the convention and let them run for two or three days in the convention hall, and then we`d have a Vice President who would be compatible, who would have the Presidential ability, who would most likely have the political balance, and who would and most importantly be a person who would have some Democratic strength for the nomination for the office of Vice President of the United States.
LEHRER: Why would that be such a good thing, I mean how would that change anything, I mean it would...
PEABODY: Let`s just take an example. When President Ford took office and was inaugurated President of the United States, he turned to the American people, he said, "I haven`t any of your votes; but I ask for your prayers." Well, that`s really what he`s been missing, while he was selected under the 25th Amendment, appointed by the President of the United States in effect, the fact is that that`s what happens to the nominees for Vice President, and those people are just political neuters. Instead of looking down to the people from whence comes the strength of every other elected official, from President to dogcatcher, this person looks up to one person. And if this person becomes President of the United States, that person to whom he`s beholden is gone, and the people to whom he should be representing have had nothing to do with his selection, other than to put the big "x" in the double bracket. And so I sort of favor the way that Adlai Stevenson did in 1956 when he did open up the convention, and there was that close race between Kennedy and Kefauver; and it was a most exciting race, too, and I think it gave some momentum to the ticket, and it certainly gives some dignity to the poor Vice Presidential candidate, and he needs it. Because there`s so little for him to do once he gets in office.
LEHRER: Of course, Adlai Stevenson was taking a chance, there, was he not, that his running mate would not be a compatible figure. I mean, you could go back to the Jefferson-Burr days... that`s always a possibility in this situation...
PEABODY: I don`t think he was taking a chance, because I think he knew that the strength on the floor was for Kefauver, Kennedy, Humphrey...
LEHRER: UM-hum.
PEABODY: ...somewhat of that nature, or possibly Senator Gore. And he knew that in the elimination process they`d come up with someone with whom he could run, and as it happened he did.
LEHRER: Have you passed on your views to Governor Carter?
PEABODY: Before I endorsed him. Indeed, when I was running for Vice President four years ago I was in Atlanta:, Georgia, and I made a courtesy call on the Governor ... it was more than a courtesy call. He listened very intently to what I had to say, and before I endorsed him in February in New Hampshire I said to him, "I hope that you can follow the procedures which I`ve been fighting for before the Democratic National Committee and the Rules Committee." And he said that he was prepared to accept what the Rules Committee presented, but he wasn`t willing to go forward at that point with the proposals that I was making. That one missing gap, it seems to me, would make a great deal of difference. Because it`s not right, in my opinion, that we should have a person rise to the Presidency, the highest office of the United States, and not have some democratic elevation from the people, which I think you can get with a convention floor fight in New York City.
LEHRER: Dave Broder, what do you think of the Governor`s ideas?
BRODER: As a journalist, I`m all in favor of anything that provides a fight. We are, by profession, fight-promoters. Seriously, I think there is a flaw in the concept, with all-due respect, Governor. I think you make a very good case for the special election of a President whenever a vacancy occurs in the office of President so that there can be a mandating function. I do not think that the problems of the Vice Presidency will be solved by creating an artificial mandate for that person holding that office. Indeed, if it had any effect I think it would be probably the reverse of what you intend and desire, which is to increase the tension between the President and the Vice President.
LEHRER: Because of the ... politics...
BRODER: Because then the Vice President could say, I`m here because these delegates chose me; I have no particular loyalty to you as President of the United States.
LEHRER: They might go in compatible, but come out very incompatible, in other words.
BRODER: That`s right. A great deal of attention is given to that increase of tension between the President and the Vice President. I was a governor, and I had a lieutenant governor who subsequently ran against me, defeated me in the primary, and became the Democratic nominee. I can tell you that while my political position might have been in jeopardy, the office of the Governor was never in jeopardy because the Governor holds all the executive power, just as the President does, and the Vice President or a lieutenant governor holds none. So there really is not a threat to the Union, a threat to the policies or programs of the man who happens to be President. The Vice President, as we know, has little or no powers at all, just a vote in case of a tie on the floor of the Senate.
LEHRER: Dr. Bourne?
BOURNE: We have a similar situation in Georgia, but it did not work out so well when Governor Carter was governor and Lester Maddox was the Lieutenant Governor.
LEHRER: That was Burr-Jefferson, wasn`t it?
BOURNE: Yes, and they ran independently, they had a different constituency, and there was constant conflict throughout four years. I don`t know that it created that many problems, but there was constant tension there.
BRODER: I haven`t come to the point of advocating separate running; I think that compatibility is a factor, but it`s just a factor, and a very important factor is the democratic support or the freshness that comes from election by the people.
LEHRER: Pat Caddell, let me ask you a general question, not based on this particular survey that you did for Governor Carter, but you`ve been surveying people on political issues for years now -- have you picked up any desire of the American people to elevate the Vice President to a higher rung on the ladder and actually do some of the things that Governor Peabody is advocating?
CADDELL: Not really. We`ve looked at that question, the people are concerned ... we looked at it when President Ford succeeded to the Presidency after not being elected...and there is a concern on the part of the American people about the office of Vice President and what he ought to do. It hasn`t been an overwhelming one, but I think there probably on the part of the public is some desire for some real reform.
LEHRER: What kind of reform?
CADDELL: I think that in the sense of, we tested the proposition, I think the country would prefer to re-elect a new President -- we tested that -- or to replace the Vice President in an elective process, rather than the one we have now operating under the 25th Amendment. And there was support for that, in a reform sense, that they have the right to choose the President. That`s one of President Ford`s problems this year, is that he never has received the mandate from the public, and they treat him in a special category that they don`t give to other presidents.
LEHRER: I see, but this question of the Presidential candidate mandating himself or handpicking his running mate, that never bothered anybody. In other words, the candidates are perceived, the President and the Vice President are perceived as one, really. Is that right?
CADDELL: Well, you have .to understand in terms of an election -- the election is between two people who are nominated to be President. The people who are Vice President may add a little or de tract a little, but in the public is eyes they`re electing a President, not a Vice President.
LEHRER: Let me ask you. Dave Broder, how important is the Vice President politically to the election of a President? Is it really an important thing, this matching of Catholics to Protestants, Southerners to Northeasterners?
BRODER: We have had one recent election, I think, in which that was terribly important. That was the Kennedy-Johnson ticket. Without Johnson it would have been very hard for Kennedy to overcome the barrier and the suspicion of him as the first Catholic to go into the White House. There may be, in some respects, almost a reverse side of that with Governor Carter as the first serious Deep South nominee, who may need a very familiar figure as a kind of a passport to those other parts of the country.
LEHRER: Alright. Gentlemen, thank you. Robin?
MACNEIL: Yes. Thank you all very much. Thank you, Pat, for your short visit. We`ll be back tomorrow night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.
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Series
The Robert MacNeil Report
Episode
Carter's Search for a Vice President
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NewsHour Productions
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cpb-aacip/507-xw47p8vd0j
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Episode Description
This episode features a discussion on Jimmy Carter's search for a fitting Vice President candidate. The guests are Pat Caddell, Peter Bourne, David Broder, Endicott Peabody. Byline: Robert MacNeil, Jim Lehrer
Created Date
1976-07-08
Topics
Politics and Government
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00:31:15
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Producing Organization: NewsHour Productions
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National Records and Archives Administration
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Chicago: “The Robert MacNeil Report; Carter's Search for a Vice President,” 1976-07-08, National Records and Archives Administration, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed July 16, 2025, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-507-xw47p8vd0j.
MLA: “The Robert MacNeil Report; Carter's Search for a Vice President.” 1976-07-08. National Records and Archives Administration, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. July 16, 2025. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-507-xw47p8vd0j>.
APA: The Robert MacNeil Report; Carter's Search for a Vice President. Boston, MA: National Records and Archives Administration, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-507-xw47p8vd0j