The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. These are the headlines this Veterans Day. President Reagan said American war dead were the victims of a peace process that failed. The stock market staged its second best rally of the year. The army of Uganda was reported to have massacred 70 people. South Africa said it was drawing up contingency plans to expel thousands of black foreign workers. Details of these and other stories coming up. Judy Woodruff's in Washington. Judy?

JUDY WOODRUFF: We have two major focuses and a newsmaker interview on the NewsHour tonight. First, veterans benefits versus the push to cut the federal budget. We have a debate between a key senator and a veterans' spokesman. Then, child abuse and the criminal justice system. We have a pair of reports examining two different views of the problem. Next, a newsmaker interview with TV evangelist-turned-politician Pat Robertson. And finally, the royal couple's stay in Washington. News Summary

MacNEIL: President Reagan led the nation in Veterans Day observances today with his upcoming summit talks with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev clearly on his mind. At Arlington Cemetery the President laid the traditional wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldiers killed in the First World War and later conflicts. Then, accompanied by Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger, he walked a few yards to the columned amphitheater for his address.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: The living have a responsibility to remember the conditions that led to the wars in which our heroes died. Perhaps we can start by remembering this, that all of those who died for us and our country were in one way or another victims of a peace process that failed. Victims of a decision to forget certain things, to forget, for instance, that the surest way to keep a peace going is to stay strong. Weakness, after all, is a temptation. It tempts the pugnacious to assert themselves. But strength is a declaration that cannot be misunderstood.

MacNEIL: Later in the day Britain's Prince and Princess of Wales also paid their respects at the tomb of the unknown soldier and commemorated the World War II military alliance by visiting the tomb of a British field marshal, Sir John Dill, who served in Washington during the war and is buried at Arlington.

WOODRUFF: Earlier in the day the royal couple made their rounds of the nation's capital, drawing friendly crowds and hundreds of news photographers wherever they appeared. Their first stop of the day was at a J.C. Penney store in suburban Virginia, where after a tour of the store's exhibit of British goods, the prince and princess went outside and shook hands, campaign style. At about 3,000 the crowd was smaller than police said they had expected, but it was enthusiastic. Some of the children who brought the princess flowers had been waiting since six o'clock in the morning. The royal couple will attend their third black-tie dinner in a row tonight, at the National Gallery of Art, whose exhibit of English country estate treasures is what drew Charles and Diana to Washington in the first place. Robin?

MacNEIL: Egypt said today it had foiled a plot by a Libyan hit team to assassinate a former Libyan prime minister who's an opponent of Libyan strong man Muammar Qaddafi. The Egyptian interior minister said four would-be assassins were arrested in a car on their way to kill ex-prime minister Abdul Hamid Bakkush. The ministry said the Qaddafi regime had offered to pay the assassins the equivalent of $22.5 million.

The New York Times reported today that Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres and King Hussein of Jordan had reached an informal agreement. Under it, Israel would agree to attend international talks on peace, and Jordan would agree to bring only Palestinian representatives acceptable to Israel.

WOODRUFF: Philippines President Ferdinand Marcos made it official today; there will be a presidential and vice presidential vote in mid-January. Marcos also submitted his resignation, effective only when the election is held. Opposition leaders had demanded that Marcos resign before the vote, and they wanted him to call an election for March instead of January. Also in Manila today, the government denied a report in a Pittsburgh newspaper that Marcos had had a kidney transplant in 1983 and another in 1984 after the first was rejected. A Marcos spokesman said the report was sheer fantasy, although he acknowledged that Marcos had been ill last year.

MacNEIL: In Uganda the West German ambassador said five West Germans were aboard a hijacked airliner held by antigovernment rebels. The plane was seized yesterday by the National Resistance Army and flown to territory they control. Meanwhile, the Uganda newspaper Topic reported that 70 members of another rebel group that had made peace with the military government had been massacred by the army. Their bullet-riddled bodies were reportedly found 12 miles from the capital, Kampala.

In South Africa, the government said it was considering contingency plans to repatriate thousands of black workers from neighboring states. The minister of manpower said that if foreign sanctions put more South Africans out of work the government might have to send foreign workers home to protect jobs. About 1.5 million foreign blacks work in South Africa, many in the gold and diamond mines.

WOODRUFF: Authorities in New Jersey said today that the pilots of two small planes that collided in the air over a New York suburb last night knew they were near each other minutes before the crash. At least five people were killed when the planes crashed into apartment buildings in two New Jersey communities. One plane crashed into two apartment buildings in Cliffside Park, starting a fire that destroyed both of them and three other buildings. Wreckage was strewn over an area of 20 blocks. A sixth person is missing and believed to have been in his apartment when the planes struck the building. Thirteen other people who were home at the time managed to escape without any serious injuries.

MacNEIL: On Wall Street the stock market surged ahead to another new record high today. The Dow Jones average of 30 industrial stocks rose 27 points to close at 1431.88. Analysts said the market was stimulated by a growing belief that interest rates will drop soon.

In Washington one of the congressional negotiators in the balanced budget battle appealed for an economic summit to end what he called a political charade. Congressman Jim Jones of Oklahoma, former chairman of the House Budget Committee, sent a letter to President Reagan and his congressional colleagues decrying the current deadlock between House and Senate over two versions of a bill to eliminate federal deficits. Jones said administration and Congress face a game of economic chicken. "We face a game of political posturing in which the only victories are short-term and inconsequential."

WOODRUFF: The Mormon Church officially named a new leader today. He is 86-year-old Ezra Taft Benson, a former U.S. agriculture secretary under President Eisenhower. Benson is widely known for his ultraconservative political views and vehement anticommunism. He has spoken out on political issues more than any other modern leader of the Mormon Church. And from Louisville, Kentucky, word that artificial heart patient William Schroeder has suffered a stroke. It is his third since he received his artificial heart almost a year ago. According to a spokesperson at the Humana hospital, this latest stroke occurred in a region of the brain unaffected by the earlier ones. His condition is listed as serious tonight.

MacNEIL: Coming up, a debate on veterans' benefits, two documentary views of child abuse cases, an interview with TV evangelist and possible presidential candidate Pat Robertson, and a look at the royal visit to Washington. Veterans' Benefits

WOODRUFF: As we reported earlier, President Reagan marked this Veterans Day with a speech at Arlington National Cemetery honoring the sacrifices America's fighting men and women have made. Ironically, though, the President's expressions come at a time when some veterans are asking just how strong Mr. Reagan's commitment is to their cause. In particular, they are upset about the Gramm-Rudman proposal to require a balanced federal budget by 1991. In connection with the proposal the Senate voted last week with administration support to include veterans' disability and health benefits among the list of items that are subject to cuts. The House, however, has voted to exempt veterans' benefits, and the issue will have to be resolved by the joint House-Senate conference committee which is now holding meetings. With us tonight are two guests with opposite points of view on this question. First, Senator Alan Simpson, Republican of Wyoming, assistant majority leader, and Charles Joeckel, executive director of the Disabled American Veterans. Mr. Joeckel was disabled himself while serving with the Marine Corps in Vietnam where he lost both legs and was awarded the Silver Star. Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.

Mr. Joeckel, let me begin with you. What is it that you and other veterans are so concerned about in this budget bill?

CHARLES JOECKEL: Well, the question, Judy, is whether or not Gramm-Rudman-Hollings balanced-budget approach is fair to veterans. We think it isn't. We believe that the service-connected disabled veteran ought to receive cost-of-living adjustments equal to whatever the cost-of-living index is, and by exempting Social Security and certain defense contracts --

WOODRUFF: Which is something that the legislation does.

Mr. JOECKEL: That's right. By doing that you do not treat veterans' programs fairly. We've said all along that if everyone was included that we would support such a proposal. But that's not the case.

WOODRUFF: Now, you're saying -- your position is that every disabled veteran, no matter what the degree of his disability, should receive the full cost-of-living increase.

Mr. JOECKEL: Every veteran who has a service-connected disability, and any veteran who is entitled to V.A. health care, ought to receive the benefits and services that he's entitled to.

WOODRUFF: All right, Senator Simpson? What's wrong with that position?

Sen. ALAN SIMPSON: Well, there are 28 million veterans. About three million of them ever had a live round whistle by their head. And I think that we have to make a distinction. Butch Joeckel gave pieces of his anatomy to this country as a service-connected disabled veteran in combat. You show me a combat-related injury, and I say give them whatever they need. But for heaven's sakes, we've got to make a distinction somewhere along the line with the $28-billion budget to make some distinction between those who were injured on a ski slope at Vail while they were stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado, or never left the United States, served 90 days, never involved in any kind of combat activity, and I think we ought to make that distinction. And, boy, when I suggest that, I tell you it rains down on my old bald head, I can tell you that.

WOODRUFF: It's not a politically easy position to take, is what you're saying?

Sen. SIMPSON: It's hammer-time, I tell you. They just go bonkers.

WOODRUFF: All right, Mr. Joeckel, what about that? He's making a distinction between wounds, disabilities that were suffered in wartime and others.

Mr. JOECKEL: Well, the first answer, of course, is that Gramm-Rudman makes no distinction, and on the floor of the Senate is probably the worst place to debate such a proposal. We would consider hearings to decide whether or not the Congress wants a distinction. In 1970 the Congress changed the law changing the distinction between those who were injured, injuries were not related to combat and made them equal to combat-related injuries. Secondly, there is no proposal that would provide cost-of-living increases for those of us who are combat-disabled. We could agree to that if such a proposal were made.

WOODRUFF: So there's no distinction, is what he's saying, as the proposal currently sits in the conference committee, is that right? There is no distinction.

Sen. SIMPSON: Well, if we're going to start exempting others other than Social Security, and I didn't think we should exempt Social Security, so that's how bad I am. I think that when you did that that would naturally make the veterans say we should be exempt, too, but if you exempt veterans then the pool gets smaller and somebody else pays the freight.

WOODRUFF: Well, to get back to the point you made a moment ago, do you think that the veterans who suffered disability in wartime, in a time of combat, should be exempted?

Sen. SIMPSON:I don't have any problem with that, but remember what's happened over the years. I served with the Army in Germany in 1955, and I qualified to be a member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. But the war ended in 1945. They stretched the periods of eligibility out to encompass almost every veteran extant, and I think that's wrong. I qualify, as I say, and yet for 10 years there had been no combat. I was at the tail end of the army of occupation. There are millions of veterans who fit in that category. Millions.

WOODRUFF: What about that?

Mr. JOECKEL: Let's make sure that we're talking about service-connected disabled veterans and not the full range of the 28 million. There's only 2.3 million service-connected veterans in this country.

WOODRUFF: But we're talking about more than that. I mean, just to be clear here, we're talking about more than that number who would be eligible, is that correct? Who would be receiving disability.

Sen. SIMPSON: Twenty-eight million would be eligible.

WOODRUFF: That's correct.

Mr. JOECKEL: Only 2.3 million receive benefits of the kind that I'm talking about. Of those, most are injured during a wartime period of service. If not 95 , it would be higher. Those are the people that we're here to protect. Those are the people that we think that the system ought to serve and that health care should be provided to.

Sen. SIMPSON: But watch out what happened. In '70 they extended those benefits to those who were 65 years of age regardless of whether they were service connected or non-service connected; if they met a certain income level they were entitled to be considered as 100 disabled just by being 65. I would think that would offend anyone 65.

WOODRUFF: So?

Mr. JOECKEL: Again, that is a provision that deals with non-service connected disability pensions and not the service-connected disabled veterans. In this Congress we will change that law in terms of health care and perhaps it will be changed in pension later, but this year we will. Both the House and Senate have passed a bill that would do that. But that's not the issue. We're talking about whether service-connected veterans should get the equal treatment to Social Security recipients and any others that are exempted from the provisions of Gramm-Rudman.

WOODRUFF: All right, what about the Social Security question? Is it fair that those -- and as the legislation now sits, is now written, Social Security recipients are exempted from any budget cuts but veterans' benefit recipients are not.

Sen. SIMPSON: Yeah, we're using Social Security exemption as kind of a bomb to roll under the Democrats' chair or the Republicans' chair, and we get to do that and the American people I think are getting offended by that. I don't blame Butch for trying to see that they should be exempted, but I'm saying that it should be the service-connected disabled and the combat theater of operation personnel, and I know that every time I try to get those figures you can't get them. They're impossible. You can't do it.

WOODRUFF: Can you give him a number right now, Mr. Joeckel?

Mr. JOECKEL: No, I cannot. I do know that in Vietnam there were 350,000 disabled veterans. I don't know of other wars offhand. I could get the figures. But the real question is, if we're going to balance the budget, if we're going to do it fairly, by exempting Social Security we're going to spend $19 billion; to give the veterans, disabled veterans, an increase would cost $300 billion. All we want is equal treatment and fair treatment.

WOODRUFF: Would you be willing to do, though, what Senator Simpson is suggesting, and that is accept -- say that just those who were wounded in wartime or hurt in wartime, in a combat situation would be exempt?

Mr. JOECKEL: I believe that the Senate and the House ought to take a look at the issue. But here is the question. Let's take flat feet, for example. A veteran can get benefits for having flat feet if it was aggravated in service. But during wartime we do not keep those veterans from serving. We do not say you cannot serve, and particularly during World War II and Vietnam, and during Vietnam we even lowered the standards for people who could get into the service. So that's the reason that you have veterans who receive benefits for flat feet --

WOODRUFF: I'm sorry, I guess I don't -- I'm not getting your point.

Mr. JOECKEL: My point is, if we were going to reject them going in as eligible to serve in the service, then perhaps we shouldn't pay them benefits. But if we accept them with impairments going in, and it's aggravated, we should pay for it.

Sen. SIMPSON: But you see, about 40 of the disabilities are those who are 10 or less disabled, which includes flat feet, hammer toes, varicose veins, and it costs $57 million a month to take care of that group of veterans. That gets lost in the shuffle. Seventy percent of them are less than 30 disabled, and all of them able, in most cases, to work. They're not like Butch Joeckel.

WOODRUFF: Are you saying that they know what the real numbers are and they're not willing to share them with you and others, or what are you saying?

Sen. SIMPSON: No. No, we both know those same numbers, but we don't know who served, you know, within this area, who ran a potato peeler through their leg doing KP and is a service-connected disabled veteran, who did that versus who stepped into a sniper's nest or a land mine like Butch Joeckel. I'm saying we ought to make a distinction on that.

WOODRUFF: But if they signed up and went off to fight and were exposed to these sorts of dangers, I gather what he's saying is then they ought to be willing to have some sort of special treatment later in their lives.

Sen. SIMPSON: He's saying that, and I'm saying we ought to have a means test and we ought to begin to examine those things when we have a budget of $27 billion for veterans in America, which is the third-largest agency budget in the United States.

WOODRUFF: And you're shaking your head?

Mr. JOECKEL: You should never put a means test on service-connected disability. In the first place, the government regulates the amount of money that I receive for my disability. I cannot sue the government, I cannot see a reason that the government should put a means test on the replacement of both my limbs.

Sen. SIMPSON: I wouldn't. I wouldn't with him.

Mr. JOECKEL: In other categories it's 10 . You have veterans who are blinded in one eye, you have deafness in one ear and so on. The distinction should be considered, you know, to see whether or not the American public support it.

WOODRUFF: Gentlemen, I have a feeling this is one we're not going to resolve here tonight, but we thank you both, Mr. Joeckel, Senator Simpson, for being with us.

Mr. JOECKEL: Thank you.

Sen. SIMPSON: Thank you. Child Abuse

MacNEIL: Reported cases of sexual abuse of children are up more than 50 in the last two years. As emotional and difficult as these cases are when they're uncovered, they become even more so when they move into the courts. Across the country both accusers and the accused claim their cases are being dealt with unfairly. Tonight we have a pair of complementary reports that reflect the complexity of the subject. First, producer Rebecca Ring of public station KQED-San Francisco deals with the frustration of parents who believe their children have been abused.

TEACHER: What could Jane do? If you were Jane's good friend, what would you tell her to do when Uncle Joe put his hand on her thigh and said don't tell anybody about this?

REBECCA RING [voice-over]: Teachers, comic books and television actors are warning children today that if someone touches them the wrong way the kids should tell someone. And they are telling, in record numbers. But when the telling progresses to the point of going to court and telling a judge and jury the process entails a complex set of new problems and questions. Many parents opt not to send their kids to court even if it means the accused will go free simply to protect their children from what they see as an unfair match.

LAWYER: How old are you?

CHILD: 3 .

LAWYER: 3 ? Three and a half months? Yes?

CHILD: Yes.

MELISSA LAWNER: Defense lawyers are trained in mythomania, which is turning truth into lies and lies into truth, and I think they've gone to school for that, and I think that what a defense lawyer does in these cases is try to get juries or judges or whoever to perceive the truth as they see it or as they want it to be seen, you know. And I can see that's a great game for adults to play, but you don't play that game with children because they have no defense.

RING [voice-over]: The children of Sandy Ballentine and Melissa Lawner and Chris Taylor testified in the well-publicized child molestation case against John and Maggie McDowell, former day care operators in Marin County. During the preliminary hearings they all withdrew their children from the witness stand. Because not enough children could or would testify, the case never went to trial and the charges were dropped. These parents, while bitter, insist they made the right decision in refusing to allow their kids to testify at trial.

Ms. LAWNER: First of all they wanted to take my son back to the scene of the crime. And, as I stated in the letter, it wasn't a place where his wallet was stolen. It was a place where he was raped and he did not want to go back there. And I found out later that the only reason they wanted him to go back there was to prime him for this trial like they prime a racehorse for a race. They'd love to see a disturbed child up there. They'd love to see him vomiting all over again, because that would show the jurors he's a very sick, disturbed kid. Look what it's done to him. I don't need that done to my child.

SANDY BALLENTINE: After my daughter had been questioned for about an hour, a little bit -- an hour and 15 minutes on whether or not she knew the difference between the truth and a lie, they finally decided that, yes, she must know the difference. But there was just one other little thing they could do. So the defense attorney asked her if she knew if Santa Claus was real or not, because, boy, that was a real hooker. Any way she answered she lost. And there was an uproar in the courtroom, and so they didn't hear what she said. But what she said was, "I don't know." And she was asked about the charges and she was able to state them, and she clearly stated the charges, the felony counts. And when they kept on asking the same questions again and again and again, she got so tired that after awhile she started saying, "I don't know," and "I don't remember," which is a child's way of saying, "Leave me alone. I've had enough."

TAUNA TAYLOR: I had to say the questions over again, and the first question he asked me again, well, I said, "I already answered that question," and he said, "I know," and I said, "Well, I did," and he said, "Well, you're supposed to say it again so everybody gets it right."

CHRIS TAYLOR: I think a judge needs to limit the kinds of questions and the degree of questions and the deliberate attempts by defense to discredit them.

RING [voice-over]: As judges, juries and attorneys become more educated about how a child differs from an adult witness, courtrooms are slowly beginning to change to accomodate those differences.

KENNETH BURR, Alameda Country District Attorney: How do you like sitting in this chair? Can you see everything?

CHILD: Yes.

Mr. BURR: Can you see your mom out there?

CHILD: Yes.

RING [voice-over]: Alameda County District Attorney Kenneth Burr prosecutes many child abuse cases, often calling children to the witness stand. He feels it's important to establish a personal relationship with the child and to familiarize him with the courtroom before the trial, a process he demonstrates in this simulated session.

CHILD: But I can't see very well.

Mr. BURR: You can't see very well?

CHILD: That one I could.

Mr. BURR: Ah, that's a better chair for you?

CHILD: Yeah.

Mr. BURR: Okay, why don't you get back there? The most difficult thing is perhaps trying to minimize the emotional trauma. The courtroom is a very hostile environment, and it's designed to be hostile. It's designed to intimidate. And the courtroom is not the best place in the world to try and elicit the truth from a child, because anybody can try and twist and intimidate the child and freeze the child up.

RING [voice-over]: Hayward Municipal Court Judge Gary Picetti believes that starndard courtroom procedures can be modified to accommodate child witnesses.

GARY PICETTI, judge: You have to take frequent breaks. You've got to be very patient. You can't run your court as efficiently as you would an adult case. You can't make demands on the child that he's incapable of meeting. And I like to take my robe off if it's an exceptionally young child, and I like to get down on the same level where the child is sitting so I'm not way over his head. Sometimes when the child that perhaps communicates more physically than with words, we'll use some props to assist the child in demonstrating perhaps what happened. The problem can be the suggestions that a child will pick up in the course of examination like, isn't it true, young man, that this didn't really happen at all, did it? And the child, as he's going like this all the time, you see. And one thing you can do is to ask the attorneys to ask their questions as much as possible without head gestures.

Dr. LEE COLEMAN, psychiatrist: People are rushing to say, "Oh, these poor children go into court," and I'm sympathetic to that, but I'm also concerned about the rights of accused people. And I'm seeing people right and left being considered guilty until proven innocent. There is no question that children can lie about being molested.

Mr. BURR: Of course children lie. Adults lie. But I think it's easier to tell when a child is lying than an adult. You can listen to a child and you hear a child and you can watch the body language of the child, and there are certain things that if a child is fabricating -- a child can only fabricate from their own limited life experiences.

Dr. COLEMAN: It's not so simple as saying the child is lying. The child can be manipulated into believing things which in fact have never happened. Therefore the age of the child must be considered, but also which adults have something to gain by what this child is saying and are they manipulating the child.

MacNEIL: The same issues that were highlighted in that story from San Francisco also figure in on-going cases in Los Angeles. There, allegations of widespread sexual abuse of children in daycare centers have been in the news for the past two years. Authorities are relying heavily on the testimony of children to make their cases. For a long time those accused of molestation in Los Angeles remained relatively quiet about the charges. Now, as Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET reports, they are mounting a campaign in their defense.

CLAUDIA KRIKORIAN, pre-school owner: It's a difficult thing to try and defend, and if you think about it, it could be you or it could be your husband, or it could be your wife. We really appreciate your support. I sure feel good when I'm on the stand and I see those friendly faces out there. It helps a lot.

CAROLYN ELLIOT, former pre-school owner: I must say that I think you all know that we're here on behalf of the falsely accused. This group started a few months ago in a very small way.

JEFFREY KAYE, KCET [voice-over]: If you didn't know, you might think these were gatherings of the local PTA. There are parents, teachers and school administrators here, but members of this group are meeting to defend their reputations and livelihoods.

Ms. ELLIOT: We've all been accused in one way or another through our schools of being child molesters.

KAYE [voice-over]: In the past two years, seven pre-schools in the South Bay area of Los Angeles have been closed by authorities who suspected they were centers of child molestation. This affluent beach community, once the epitome of southern California fun in the sun, is now seen by some as a hotbed of child sexual abuse. Nearly 100 suspects indicted and unindicted, many respected figures here, have been accused of sexually molesting as many as 1,200 children. Although the suspects have maintained their innocence from the beginning, they and their supporters are now going beyond that, taking the offensive and joining a growing number of activists throughout the country who claim to be victims of an overly aggressive and misguided crackdown on child abuse.

BETTY RAIDOR, former teacher: No child was ever molested at that school, or any school that I know of.

KAYE [voice-over]: Sixty-five-year-old Betty Raidor was jailed for 97 days until friends put up their houses to raise the three-quarters of a million dollars bail she needed. The five-bedroom house she and her husband once occupied is now on the auction block. They need the money to pay attorneys' fees. The couple has settled into a small apartment while they fight charges that Betty Raidor molested children at the McMartin pre-school where she taught for 25 years.

Ms. RAIDOR: And I had a regular program of music and art and activities that kept the whole day filled.

KAYE [voice-over]: Charges that children were molested at the McMartin school, the first and most notorious case, touched off a wave of similar accusations across the country. Former McMartin teacher Betty Raidor appears the quintessential grandma. Not so to her accusers. Six of the 14 children to take the stand in the McMartin case said she either participated in or watched sexual abuse at the school.

Ms. KRIKORIAN: So please, if you can spread the word to your friends, we're asking for your help. Thank you.

KAYE [voice-over]: Pre-school owner Claudia Krikorian has assumed a leadership role in this campaign. Although no criminal charges have been lodged, her two day care centers have been shut down by the state as a result of allegations that sexual abuse took place there. Her days are now filled with meetings and hearings. She is trying to get her schools reopened.

JUDGE: Good morning.

COURT: Good morning.

JUDGE: Number 18, Krikorian v. Haggerty.

KAYE [voice-over]: On this day Krikorian's attorney will try to persuade a judge to keep one of her schools open, pending the outcome of a full-blown hearing. The judge's decision will be based on a key issue in all these cases that pit children against adults. Who do you believe? Who do you trust? Forty parents, many present in the courtroom, have signed petitions saying they don't believe the charges and demanding the school be kept open. An attorney for the state discounts the parents' request.

LAWYER: The parents haven't talked to the doctors and who examined these children, who have determined that these children have not only been molested but have been molested with a viciousness that goes beyond human comprehension. In short, the parents haven't examined the evidence; the state has.

JUDGE: Well, I've got parents saying, "We want to keep our children in this school. We accept responsibility for all of these circumstances, and we are fully informed." The fact that it may turn out they don't know what they're talking about doesn't make them bad or insensitive people.

LAWYER: No, it doesn't. But on the other hand, the state has an inherent responsibility to protect its children regardless of what the parents say.

JUDGE: My preference is to give the parents what they want, to require that the school be operated entirely in accordance with the law and regulations. I do it with some trepidation, but I'm deferring at least for now to the parents.

LAWYER: The state would like to make the point that if the school is closed next week or next month, that's too late. Last week would have been too late. Last month would have been too late. Six months ago was too late. That's the point that the state is trying to make.

JUDGE: Want me to feel guilty?

LAWYER: No, your honor.

JUDGE: I say I've made clear. I'm not overwhelmed with what I'm doing here in light of the medical reports.

KAYE [voice-over]: After this hearing Claudia Krikorian was able to celebrate a minor victory. She, her supporters and others accused of child molestation are gearing up for more battles in and out of the courtroom. Their strategy is to attack the credibility of the evidence.

Ms. ELLIOT: We think that there's a definite pattern to the way it happened, and we think that Dr. Coleman will be able to shed some light on how 1,200 children could be accusing people of these molestations.

KAYE [voice-over]: Psychiatrist Lee Coleman has made a career out of helping prosecutors dispute the testimony of mental health professionals. Now he's working for defendants in molestation cases, calling into question the techniques used by investigators of child sexual abuse.

Dr. COLEMAN: The mental health professionals, or the people who are trained by the mental health professionals, are themselves the source of the stories that the children then go on to tell.

KAYE [voice-over]: Lawyer Walter Urban who represents Betty Raidor contends interviewers use scare tactics.

WALTER URBAN, attorney: "Your parents were in here, your mommy told us that you were molested. Your father told us you were molested. Johnny, what's wrong with you? Why can't you tell us you were molested? I know you're afraid. you're afraid, aren't you, Johnny?" And the kid is looking at, listening to this adult with these dolls, naked dolls in front of him, is bewildered.

KAYE [voice-over]: Child psychologist Denise Godfrey-Pinn strongly denies any suggestion that ideas were planted in children's minds.

DENISE GODFREY-PINN, child psychologist: I try very hard not to ask leading questions. The point at which, though, you start to ask leading questions is after the child has given you enough information to indicate that, yes, there has been abuse; yes, they have identified who the person is.

KAYE [voice-over]: The molestation court cases and their public campaigns have polarized L.A.'s South Bay. Suspected child molestors and their allies claim to be victims of a witch hunt. Their accusers are sure that the molestations occurred. Robert Philobosian was Los Angeles County district attorney in May 1984 when the criminal complaint was filed against the McMartin pre-school defendants. He is concerned about the public campaign of those accused of child molesting, and he believes the public needs to be reminded of the charges.

ROBERT PHILOBOSIAN, former district attorney: What was going on was a systematic molestation of children by the administrators and teachers of the McMartin school over many, many years. Not just molestation, but a terrorizing of the children, telling them that if they told anyone about the molestation that their parents or family members would be injured. Those threats were backed up by the physical torture and mutilation of small animals.

KAYE [voice-over]: If there is any prevailing sentiment in this community, it is confusion. Russ Lesser is a councilman and former mayor of Manhattan Beach where the McMartin pre-school is located.

RUSS LESSER, councilman: Some very normal people, very normal-acting people who have lived in the community for many years have been accused of some real dastardly acts, and it's very tough for people to accept or to believe or to know what to believe.

KAYE [voice-over]: At the Easy Reader, a local weekly, publisher Kevin Cody has been following the cases. He says the scope of the allegations is mind-boggling.

KEVIN CODY, newspaper publisher: We say 1,200 kids were molested, which is what the sheriff's task force says. Most of these kids are from Hermosa-Manhattan. Hermosa-Manhattan only have 3,500 elementary school age kids that are a large segment of the population. It's a kind of accusation that's impossible to refute because of the nature of the crime. It takes place in private. It's also the kind of accusation that's almost impossible to prosecute. You have a child witness against an adult, particularly if the adult's an upstanding pillar in the community.

KAYE [voice-over]: The members of this community suspected of child abuse say their campaigns will continue, as will the investigations and court cases. In all of this there is the disturbing reality that the fear and bitterness that grip this community will not be easily dispelled.

MacNEIL: The McMartin school case is now in its 15th month of preliminary hearings. Recent reports say the Los Angeles prosecutors are considering dropping at least some of the charges because of improper questioning techniques used by the child therapists. Officially, however, the prosecutors still stay they stand by their case.

WOODRUFF: Still ahead on the NewsHour, an interview with TV evangelist Pat Robertson and a look at how the royal couple have turned their charms on Washington. Politically Inspired

MacNEIL: It's pretty early to be talking presidential politics for 1988, but the people who do have started including the name of Pat Robertson in the list of possible Republicans. Pat Robertson is the Southern Baptist TV evangelist who runs the Christian Broadcasting Network. His father was a U.S. senator from Virginia, and the son has a resume many politicians would envy -- degrees from Yale Law School and the New York Theological Seminary, spells as a Golden Gloves boxer and a Marine in Korea. Correspondent June Cross has more on Robertson as a TV phenomenon.

Rev. PAT ROBERTSON, Christian Broadcasting Network: When you want prayer, you may be sick and you say, "God loves me, and if I'll agree with somebody I'll see an answer to my prayer."

JUNE CROSS [voice-over]: Faith healer, born-again evangelist, TV talk show host, entrepreneur. Only a few of the labels pinned on Marion G. Robertson. More widely known as Pat Robertson, he hosts TV's most popular Christian talk show, "The 700 Club." It's aired for 22 years, funded by viewer donations. It's a 90-minute daily broadcast, a sort of "Good Morning, Christian America." It reaches nearly 8.5 million American households a week and is seen in more than 60 countries around the world. "The 700 Club" is Robertson's personal pulpit. The pulpit started, he says, as an act of faith.

Rev. ROBERTSON: I did a program called "Power Time" on radio where we had people call in prayer requests. We took prayer requests. We'd never done it on television, and during one of these telethons God sent revival. It was a true, honest revival. These things began to ring with all of these sicknesses and people asking for prayer, and as we began to pray God began to answer the prayers and began to heal the sick. And there were miracles taking place. That was 1965, and that was a "700 Club" telethon where we wanted 700 people to pledge $10 a month. That's what it was all about.

CROSS [voice-over]: Unlike other political TV evangelists like Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart and James Robison, Pat Robertson lacks the hellfire and damnation style. Instead, he comes across as soft-spoken, assured and worldly.

Rev. ROBERTSON: In case you wondered where Tunisia is, many people don't even think about it, but it's a far cry from an Israeli air strike in Lebanon or in the Bekaa Valley or some place like that, which is their normal scope of operation.

CROSS [voice-over]: His "700 Club" attracts younger and more educated audiences than any of the other religious shows, just the kind of audience Republican political strategists are trying to play to. Robertson's "700 Club" was originally a forum for prayer and faith healing. He was often heard speaking in tongues. More recently those features have been toned down.

Rev. ROBERTSON: It's a pleasure to welcome you to "The 700 Club" Phil Donahue. Phil, glad to have you.

CROSS [voice-over]: "The 700 Club" has become more of a magazine program and a platform for Robertson's political views. "The 700 Club" is the tip of a $230-million empire that Robertson has built. Included in that empire is the Christian Broadcasting Network, the third largest cable channel. CBN runs its own university and, in addition to that, Robertson owns three commercial television stations and a book publishing outlet. Robertson has also started a world outreach center. It reportedly distributed $50 million in relief aid last year, including a politically controversial $2 million to transport non-military supplies to anti-Sandinista guerrillas in Nicaragua. The foundations of a political empire for Pat Robertson lie in a grassroots organization called The Freedom Council. It's a nationwide base of volunteers inspired to read the Bible and get involved by a TV ad campaign that uses well-known stars. Recently there has been speculation that Pat Robertson may run for the 1988 Republican presidential nomination. He has already scheduled appearances in early primary states and has spoken in highly visible places like the National Press Club. Pat Robertson says he's waiting a word from God before he makes an official announcement, so it remains to be seen if God is on his side.

MacNEIL: Reverend Robertson is with us tonight from the headquarters of the Christian Broadcasting Network in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Good evening, Reverend Robertson.

Rev. ROBERTSON: Robin, good evening.

MacNEIL: Are you seriously considering having a go at the presidency?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, as you know there's been a great deal of talk and speculation. Those in the religious arena, those concerned with traditional moral values, conservative people in the political spectrum, have come to me and I've been featured on some national magazines and so forth, so I am seriously considering it, but that's as far as it goes right now.

MacNEIL: What are the factors you're weighing in seriously considering it?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, I believe that we have to look at what's going to happen several years from now. I think there are too many imponderables to say. The economy is very serious. The matter of what the Soviets may or may not do, the health of the President, the elections in 1986, the response of a number of people who would be friends. I'm crystallizing a decision with taking a number of factors into consideration.

MacNEIL: Nowadays people have to make decisions like that very early. You can't wait 'til 1988 to decide, can you? You have to get going. Have you told yourself by when you should have made a decision?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, I think that there should be something rather positive by, certainly, the third quarter of 1986, no later than the November elections in 1986.

MacNEIL: Our correspondent, June Cross, quoted one of the many articles as saying you're waiting for a sign from God on this. Is that literally true? Are you waiting for some advice from that quarter?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, it's a question of prayer as being -- it is a conversation, if you will. Those who pray, I'm sure they understand that. But primarily there's a question of peace within a person that any course is a proper, correct course to take, and I have a great deal at stake. I have a worldwide ministry that is helping literally millions of people, and I wouldn't leave that lightly. So it's a question of an inner peace and then the crystallization through discussing with other people.

MacNEIL: The Wall Street Journal, in one of the many articles about you recently, quotes you as saying that the image of a TV evangelist is the kiss of death politically. Why do you think that is?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, I'm afraid there are some vapor trails around the country, and perhaps there have been a number of programs that haven't been all as favorable as one would like, and I think in my own case I'm a bit more broad-gauged than that. I am a businessman. In the sense of this operation some of it's commercial, and I do have a law degree and I have specialized in economics and other fields, including politics. My father was 34 years in public office in Washington.

MacNEIL: I see. Do you -- I just wondered in reading that, that the TV evangelist image might be the kiss of death, whether you were worried that if you ran that there'd be a lot of concentration on some of the criticisms that have been raised about your evangelical role in the past, like using the Bible as a source of inspiration or advice in foreign policy issues, for instance.

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, it isn't quite as broad-scale as that. I obviously read the Bible and consider it, as Abraham Lincoln and a number of other of our leaders have, as a great inspirational guide and a guide, compendium, if you will, of wisdom. But the thing that will be done, undoubtedly, is ridicule of some of the deeply-held religious beliefs that I have, and although I am public by being on television, I do feel that some of these things are rather personal and yet, in my case, they will be seen on the front pages of newspapers all across the country.

MacNEIL: Well, do you think the Bible is, as you've indicated in some of your talks over the past few years, that it is a good guide to foreign policy? I mean, you've talked about predictions, for instance, of what the Israelis might do, how far they might expand their territory, which might, you said, conceivably bring the Soviets into a clash with the United States. Things like that.

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, you know, I am somewhat of an expert on Middle East affairs. I have met with the past four prime ministers of Israel. The former head of Israeli defense intelligence is a friend of mine, and so is the former head of the Mossad, the Israeli secret service. So my information about Israel doesn't all come from the Bible, although I do have some scriptures. I understand that Moshe Dayan used some of the battles of Joshua when he planned that fabulous six-day war. So it is a living book.

MacNEIL: Do you believe, as I've seen you quoted as saying; I'd like to know whether it's accurate. Do you believe you are actually a prophet of God yourself?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, the word prophet means mouthpiece or spokesman, and I think any minister is a spokesman. If he's not speaking for God, he shouldn't be speaking. In that capacity I think any minister is speaking prophetically when he speaks to his generation about social ills, about moral problems, about the condition of the poor and the needy; and that term is historically called prophetic, and that's what it means. And I think it's been taken a bit out of context in my case.

MacNEIL: You mean, people are making more of it than you mean?

Rev. ROBERTSON: In the evangelical world or in the liberal church world the idea of prophetic preaching means to address the ills of one's generation in the name of God. And --

MacNEIL: What -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Rev. ROBERTSON: That's -- no, please.

MacNEIL: What do you think is the aspect of life in this country that, if you ever achieved high office and had some say in it, you think most needs to be changed or improved, or whatever?

Rev. ROBERTSON: Well, I really feel at this point of time, Robin, that the runaway profligacy of the federal government is something that will undermine all the rest of the country if it's allowed to continue. It can imperil the family stability of the nation. It can imperil the working ability, possibly the government itself. It was said, I believe in The Economist, recently that we would be likened to such a well-managed economy as that of Italy if we continue what we're doing. And this has broad moral and social ramifications as well as political ramifications. And I believe in my view that's the major crisis and what I would address, but I would do so, in a sense, from a moral perspective. I think it's immoral to beggar one's children and grandchildren in order to live high in this generation.

MacNEIL: I see. Well, Reverend Robertson, thank you for joining us this evening.

Rev. ROBERTSON: Thank you very much. Britons Take Washington

WOODRUFF: In the unlikely event you haven't heard, the nation's capital has had some royal visitors over the past few days. Britain's Prince Charles and Princess Diana have arrived, and they've drawn more attention than just about anything most of us can remember. In case you haven't caught a glimpse yet of their comings and goings, we thought we'd give you our look at what they've been up to. Jeff Goldman has been on the royals beat.

JEFF GOLDMAN [voice-over]: The princess wore red, the prince double-breasted blue, when they arrived Saturday morning at Andrews Air Force Base. To curtsy or not to curtsywas the question. British subjects did, of course. The Americans remained correctly upright, neither bowing the head nor bending the knee to royalty. The first stop was the White House, the closest thing to a palace on the American tour. The royal couple was treated to a distinctly American institution, the coffee klatch, as a substitute for the tea the British have in the afternoon. However, the coffee klatch at the White House has some distinctly different nuances, not exactly a gabfest over the kitchen table. At any rate, it was a prelude to dinner that was, by all reports, a smashing affair. Official Washington was shut out of this function. Not a cabinet member or a Supreme Court justice to be seen. Just Hollywood favorites.

On Sunday morning the prince and princess met their solemn obligations to the Anglican Church in America by attending services at the National Cathedral. The future defender of the faith took part in the service with a reading from the Old Testament book of Isaiah.

CHARLES, Prince of Wales: "The wilderness and the dry land shall be glad."

GOLDMAN [voice-over]: Afterwards, a trek through the National Gallery of Art for a tour of the exhibit called "Treasure Houses of Britain," ostensibly the main reason for their visit. If they'd seen it all before back at home, they didn't let on, patiently taking an hour and a half to go through 17 rooms. If Princess Diana looked weary, Prince Charles assured everyone they were just fine.

Prince CHARLES: But we'll survive. It's all in the breeding, you know.

GOLDMAN [voice-over]: A quick respite, a change of clothes and Charles and Diana played host at the British Embassy for the officials who weren't invited the night before. Vice President Bush led the dignitaries and Princess Diana donned a tiara, giving journalists and guests something to gaze at. During his Sunday news conference, Prince Charles declined to characterize himself as a salesman for British goods. However, this morning he and the princess paid a visit to decidedly middle-class J.C. Penney's to tout the store's "Best of Britain" sales campaign. Penney's chairman presented Charles with a handmade American quilt. The prince asked modestly if it were king-sized. He was told it was queen-sized.

Three thousand royalty watchers and Veterans Day shoppers gathered at the suburban Springfield, Virginia, mall -- a smaller crowd than expected, but an enthusiastic one.

BYSTANDER: He said hello to me and I was -- that's enough for me. And that was it. I was just dying. It's all I ever need in life.

BYSTANDER: And it's fun in a world where there's not a lot of fun sometimes.

GOLDMAN [voice-over]: The royal couple went their separate ways this afternoon, the princess to a drug rehabilitation program with Nancy Reagan. They heard testimonials from former addicts not much younger than the princess.

ERIN: Hi. My name's Erin. I'm 15 years old. The drugs I've done are pot, alcohol, speed, cocaine, ups, downs, prescriptions, over-the-counters, PCP, LSD, THC, mushrooms, hash, hash oil, trash drugs and some others that I can't remember right now. I've been doing drugs for four years, and I've been straight for 31 days.

GOLDMAN [voice-over]: The prince went to a function at the Library of Congress, where he met with American constitutional experts. Tonight, another formal dinner, this time at the National Gallery. And then it's on to Palm Beach for sunshine, polo and a visit with America's sun-bronzed aristocracy.

MacNEIL: In tonight's cartoon, Lurie looks at Philippines President Ferdinand Marcos.

[Ranon Lurie cartoon -- Marcos ends up sitting in the mouth of a sharp-toothed dog, the Philippine elections, saying he's got it under control. The dog wags its tail.]

zMacNEIL: Again, the main stories of the day. President Reagan said American war dead were victims of a peace process that had failed. The stock market staged its second-best rally of the year. The army of Uganda was reported to have massacred 70 people. South Africa said it was drawing up contingency plans to expel thousands of foreign black workers.

Good night, Judy.

WOODRUFF: Good night, Robin. That's our NewsHour for tonight. We'll see you again tomorrow night. I'm Judy Woodruff. Thank you and good night.