The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. We devote tonight's NewsHour to the signing of historic Israeli-PLO agreement. First, extended excerpts from the White House ceremony and speeches, then Newsmaker interviews with the two men of the hour, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat, plus analysis from former President Jimmy Carter. FOCUS - PEACE MAKERS

MR. LEHRER: Middle East peace is our story tonight. We start with today's White House signing ceremony. Kwame Holman reports.

MR. HOLMAN: On a south lawn of the White House bathed in sunshine, a virtual roll call of Washington's and many of the world's foreign policy leaders assembled for the historic ceremony. Among the 3,000 dignitaries and interested observers were every Secretary of State since the Nixon administration, each of whom had played some role in making today's event possible. Also in attendance, members of Congress, the President's cabinet, and many non-government advocates of MidEast peace. Just after 10:30 this morning, a series of historic firsts began. Palestine Liberation Organization Chairman Yasser Arafat, banned from the United States for 20 years, was welcomed on the steps of the White House. Shortly after that, the Israeli delegation arrived, led by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. The invitees sat patiently as Arafat and Rabin met inside with President Clinton and with former Presidents Bush and Carter, both of whom during their administrations were able to promote dialogue between Israelis and Arabs. Later, as the two former presidents emerged from the White House, they were greeted with applause. They were followed by Vice President Al Gore with Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and Mahmoud Abbas, the PLO representative who secretly negotiated the breakthrough agreement with the Israelis, and finally President Clinton, flanked by Prime Minister Rabin and Chairman Arafat. [applause]

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Prime Minister Rabin, Chairman Arafat, Foreign Minister Peres, Mr. Abbas, President Carter, President Bush, distinguished guests, on behalf of the United States and Russia, co-sponsors of the Middle East peace process, welcome to this great occasion of history and hope. Mr. Prime Minister, Mr. Chairman, I pledge the active support of the United States of America to the difficult work that lies ahead. [applause] The United States is committed to ensuring that the people who are affected by this agreement will be made more secure by it and to leading the world in marshalling the resources necessary to implement the details that will make real the principles to which you commit yourselves today.

SHIMON PERES, Foreign Minister, Israel: Mr. President, I would like to thank you and the great American people for peace and support. I want to tell the Palestinian delegation that we are sincere, that we mean business. We do not seek to shape your life or determine your destiny, that all of us turn from bullets to ballots, from guns to shovels. We shall pray with you. We shall offer you our help in making Gaza prosper and Jericho blossom again. [applause]

MAHMOUD ABBAS, PLO Representative: [speaking through interpreter] We know quite well that this is merely the beginning of a journey that is surrounded by numerous dangers and difficulties. And yet, our mutual determination to overcome everything that stands in the way of the cause for peace, our common belief that peace is the only means to security and stability, and our mutual aspiration for a secure peace characterized by cooperation, all this will enable us to overcome all obstacles with the support of the International Community. And here I would like to mention in particular the United States Government, which will shoulder the responsibility of continuing to play an effective and a distinct role in the next stage so that this great achievement may be completed.

MR. HOLMAN: The Israeli-PLO agreement was signed by Peres and Abbas. They sat at the same 124-year-old walnut table used for the signing of the Camp David Accords, which brought peace to Israel and Egypt 14 years ago. The agreement signed today gives self-rule to Palestinians in Israeli-occupied territories, beginning with the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Jericho, and there will be discussion on how to repatriate Palestinian refugees who fled those areas during the 1967 War. The fate of Jerusalem now claimed by both Israelis and Palestinians was put off until final negotiations. Once the signings were complete, the leaders stepped back from the table, and President Clinton initiated a series of handshakes that many familiar with the century-long struggle between Arabs and Jews never thought they would see. [applause and cheers in audience]

YITZHAK RABIN, Prime Minister, Israel: Let me say to you, the Palestinians, we are the same to live together on the same soil, in the same land. We the soldiers who have returned from battle stained with blood, we who have seen our relatives and friends killed before our eyes, we who have attended their funerals and cannot look into the eyes of their parents, we who have come -- who have come from a land where parents buried their children, we who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today, in a loud and a clear voice, enough of blood and tears, enough! [applause] We have no desire for revenge. We have no -- we harbor no hatred towards you. We, like you, are people, people who want to build a home, to plant a tree, to love, live side by side with you in dignity, in empathy, as human beings, as free men, we are today giving peace a chance, and saying to you -- [applause] -- and saying again to you, enough.

YASSER ARAFAT, Chairman, PLO: [speaking through interpreter] Now, as we stand on the threshold of this new, historic era let me address the people of Israel and their leaders with whom we are meeting today for the first time, and let me assure them that the difficult decision we reached together was one that required great and exceptional courage. [applause] We will need more courage and determination to continue the course of building coexistence and peace between us. This is possible, and it will happen with mutual determination and with the effort that will be made with all parties on all the tracks to establish the foundations of a just and comprehensive peace. Our people do not consider that exercising the right to self-determination could violate the rights of their neighbors or infringe on their security, rather, putting an end to their feelings of being wronged and of having suffered an historic injustice is the strongest guarantee to achieve coexistence and openness between our two peoples and future generations. [applause] Our two peoples are awaiting today this historic hope, and we want to give peace a real chance. [applause]

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Now, let each of us here today return to our portion of that effort. Uplifted by the spirit of the moment, refreshed in our hopes, and guided by the wisdom of the Almighty, who has brought us to this joyous day, go in peace, go as peace makers. [applause]

MR. HOLMAN: The ceremony lasted little more than an hour. It was simple and without fanfare, but few who witnessed it downplayed its significance.

MR. LEHRER: In the Middle East, today's Washington ceremony received mixed reactions. Palestinians in the West Bank town of Jericho danced in the streets. Jericho will be granted limited Palestinian self-rule under the agreement signed today. The Palestinian flag was openly carried in the celebrations. Until today, the flag was considered illegal by Israeli authorities. There was also opposition to the signing. The fundamentalist group Hamas organized a mass protest in the Syrian capital of Damascus. Soldiers and police in Beirut, Lebanon, opened fire on protesters there, killing seven, and wounding at least thirty-one. Palestinian opponents of the agreement also protested in the occupied territories, themselves. There was a step toward peace on one other Mideast front today. Jordan's prime minister confirmed his country and Israel would sign an agenda for peace talks in Washington tomorrow. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Now we talk to the two men who made history today. First, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, the former general who fought in Israel's war of independence and commanded its forces in the Six-Day War. After the White House ceremony, I spoke with Mr. Rabin from his hotel in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: Prime Minister Rabin, thank you for joining us on this historic day.

YITZHAK RABIN, Prime Minister, Israel: Thank you very much.

MR. MacNeil: You said as you began your remarks at the White House, "It's not so easy." What did you feel standing there?

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Exactly what I said. I believe that I felt and I feel certain uneasiness in reaching this agreement, and while, on the one hand, one cannot forget the past, the 30 years of terrorism by the PLO organization, not only against soldiers, but first and foremost against civilians, women, and children, and many of these terror acts could be defined as atrocities. But I reached a point that I realized that we cannot move ahead in our negotiations with a delegation of the Palestinians from the territories that anyhow they expressed exactly what they were dictated by the PLO. If I want to move ahead in the solution between the Palestinians and Israelis in the establishing of the interim period, or as it is defined in the letter of the invitation to the Madrid Peace Conference, the interim self-government arrangement for the Palestinians is the first phase in the moving towards solution of the conflict between them and us. I came to the conclusion, unfortunately, that the more the time passes, the greater is the danger, the extreme Islamic movement will increase their power and increase their terror, and by their very existence, their very position, philosophy, theology, they are against the very existence of Israel, and there terrible terror activities are aimed not only to kill Israelis, but to kill the peace negotiations. And their effort yesterday in which four Israelis lost their lives was an example of what they intend to do to prevent the implementation of the agreement that was signed today.

MR. MacNeil: You, you said you would shake Arafat's hand, if necessary. Evidently, you found it necessary today.

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Yes. I couldn't -- in front of the President of the United States and an enormous number of people, dignitaries, that were invited, from the Arab world, from the United States, from Israel, from Europe, when he offered his hand to say no in front of all the cameras of the world.

MR. MacNeil: Did you feel you shook the hand that had the blood on it of the civilians you talked about?

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Yes. I, I cannot deny it. But allow me to say the real problem is that Israel for the achievement of peace has to sign agreements with its enemies. There is no one enemy to Israel that did not bring about killing of Israelis, some of them mainly soldiers, but there is no one enabling of Israel which is not involved in killing civilians too, therefore, one could say, okay, since this is, this is our new enemy, don't even try to achieve peace. I believe it would be a major mistake on the part of any prime minister of Israel not to try his best to achieve peace and security knowing that he does it with enemies, that he might despise their activities or what they did and say and what they stood for in the past.

MR. MacNeil: I remember Golda Meir years ago expressing disgust at the idea that Egyptians had to show their manhood by attacking Israelis. Do you think Arafat is showing his manhood by making this step today?

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: I hope so. You have to bear in mind that we deal with two separate agreements, an agreement that was signed on Friday last week in response to his letter that he drastically will change at least in accordance to his commitment written on paper and signed by him of the PLO. If the PLO will really fulfill its -- his commitment to recognize Israel and its right to exist in peace and security, to solve the remaining problems between Israel and the Palestinians by peaceful means through negotiations, to renounce terrorism, to reject it, to discipline those of the PLO who will take part in any violent and terror activity, and above all, to see at least for a while till it will be authorized or approved by the PNC to look at the articles that negate Israel inoperative and no longer valid -- I don't believe that two years ago anyone could expect to get such a letter, therefore, I answered in my letter that with such PLO there is no reason not to negotiate, bearing in mind that the only alternative partner among the Palestinians in the territory is the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, or a different option of non-negotiation, continuation of the present situation, which means to put an end to the efforts to reach agreement with the Palestinians. Therefore, I felt uneasiness for the past, hopeful for the future but still, I had to check it. And I believe that Israel negotiates from a standpoint of strength. If there is any military threat to Israel, to the very existence of Israel, it can be presented only by the armed forces of Arab, Arab countries in the future. It might be even a Muslim country. The Palestinians don't present a threat to the very existence of Israel. They present, and they carry out terror activities. They bring about killing of Israeli civilians and soldiers. It's a terror that endangers the personal security of Israelis in certain areas at given periods.

MR. MacNeil: Does this agreement depend on Arafat's personal survival? If his enemies carried out their threat to kill him would it all fall apart?

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Well, it's not for me to say they'll succeed. I don't know there is any Arab leader, including presidents of Arab countries, that are not in danger of assassination. If I think this way, there is no need to try even to make peace with Arab countries leaders, like Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon, or in the past with Egypt. We had an example that a leader of an Arab country, that signed peace treaty with Israel, two years after signing the peace treaty, he was assassinated. I don't know to what extent it is because he signed a peace treaty with us, or because of the policy of the extreme Islamic movements in Egypt, but I had to answer a basic question. Is it desired by Israel to negotiate peace, knowing that our neighbor Arab countries, their leaders, don't live in a democratic system, their values are entirely different, and in a western, civilized democracy, and one can conclude that there is no need even to try to make peace. I believe that we have to take risks in taking peace. What I have done today is taking risks, I hope calculated risks, because I am strong militarily, and I can repair whatever will be done in a damaging way.

MR. MacNeil: Do you see giving Palestinians tangible signs of economic improvement quickly a way of winning their support to the agreement and turning them away from Hamas and the Islamic Jihad?

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Israel has invested certain amount of money lately to reduce the unemployment, to develop infrastructure. I believe that in 1993, the development projects, only the development budget in the territories rose, which serve only the Palestinians, sewage, water, classes, hospitals, was 450 million sheckles, which I believe it's about $150 million. I'm not aware about -- this is only the development budget, the development budget. There are other expenditures on schooling, health, municipal services, agriculture, tourism. I don't see so far any contribution by the International Community beyond where they give now to the Anwar or UNDP, that will mount more than one hundred fifty to two hundred million dollars. It will be practically very limited number. The rest might be that it is spent now.

MR. MacNeil: What is your feeling about Israelis who charge you with betraying the country? Benjamin Netanyahu today called this agreement "a historic blunder."

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Well, Israel is a democracy. Everyone has the right to express his opinion. I believe he's talking nonsense. He doesn't know what he's speaking about. He projects certain epochal description of the future. I believe he doesn't understand that vis-a-vis the Palestinians the danger is terror, personal security of the Israelis, that the Palestinians will never be able to present a military threat to Israel.

MR. MacNeil: Are they who oppose this fearful for Israel or fearful for Greater Israel, including the occupied territories of the settlements are Judea and Samaria as they call it?

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: I believe their vision, in my humble opinion, I believe an illusion of the whole land of Israel is an ideology that doesn't hold water if Israel would like to be a Jewish state in the real sense. I believe in the right of the Jewish people all over the land of Israel, but I believe to today annexation will bring about either racism to Israel -- there is a small party that preaches transfer -- there are other parties that, individuals within parties that preach apartheid -- I believe that racism and Judaism are in contradiction by their very essence. Israel that will preach racism will not be a Jewish state according to my understanding, what are the real meaning of being a Jew. Otherwise, it will give them the full civilian rights as we give to every individual who is an Israeli citizen, regardless of his religion, sex, et cetera, as we offer to those Palestinians who reside in united Jerusalem. Every one of them, once inside, can be a full Israeli citizen. I believe to make the additional one point million, one point eight million Palestinian citizens of Israel, on top of the nine hundred thousand that we have as Israeli citizens, will make them 35 percent of the voters to the Knesset. They'll decide what kind of government will be. They'll dictate if Israel will be a Jewish state with a destiny to serve the Jewish people all over the world, or we will become another small Jewish country without being the center and the source of the inspiration, relation to all the communities of the Jewish people all over the world, that we will not be able to carry out policy of saving Jews from Russia or from Ethiopia, because 35 percent of the voters will be non-Jewish, a different entity politically, religiously, you can say nationally, which the Palestinians are. I don't expect them to be Zionist. And if Israel will lose the Zionists from its very existence, Israel will be entirely different country.

MR. MacNeil: Finally -- I beg your pardon. I interrupted you.

PRIME MINISTER RABIN: Therefore, whoever speaks now about the whole land of Israel speaks either on a racist Jewish state which will not be Jewish or a bi-national state. I prefer Israel to be a Jewish state, not all over the land of Israel, but by no means to withdraw to the pre-Six-Day War Line. Jerusalem must remain united under Israel's sovereignty and our capital forever. No one will teach me what is the meaning of Jerusalem. I was born over 71 years ago in Jerusalem. I fought the two wars. They're deciding the fate of Israel and the fate of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. In '48, as a brigade commander in the besieged Jerusalem, fighting in the reopening of the road to Jerusalem in 1967, as a chief of staff of the armed forces of Israel, which then we succeeded to achieve what we failed in 1948, to unite Jerusalem, to bring it under our sovereignty.

MR. MacNeil: Well, Prime Minister Rabin, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. LEHRER: Now to a Newsmaker interview with Yasser Arafat, chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization. I talked with him earlier today at his Washington Hotel. His reference to the PNC are to the Palestine National Congress.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Chairman, welcome. Why did you make this deal with Israel?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Because we are looking to have the peace agreement since it, if you remember, our PNC had achieved, had decided, and accepted this thing and peaceful initiative. And you remember I went to the United Nations in Geneva to declare this initiative. And we opened the talks with the American administration. And after that, we went to, for what, joking? We went to implement peace according to President Bush's initiative, land for peace, the implementation of 242 and 338, and the particular legitimate rights of the Palestinian people, and the security for the whole region. So from that moment which we had decided we were for peace, I extended, I give many appeals to the Israeli leadership extending my hand, to Rabin, himself, to his cabinet, to make the peace.

MR. LEHRER: Many American diplomats who have been involved in Middle East diplomacy for years said that the Palestinians could have had this deal and even a better one 13 years ago and you all passed it up, is that true?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: No. Nothing had been offered to us before.

MR. LEHRER: You mean directly to the PLO?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: No, not at the PNC.

MR. LEHRER: How important do you think -- how important was it that your, your organization, the PLO --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Is not my organization.

MR. LEHRER: Your --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: It is the Palestine Organization.

MR. LEHRER: Of which you are chairman.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: It is the Palestinian identity. The PLO is not an organization. It is the Palestinian identity.

MR. LEHRER: But without the PLO could this day have happened?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: I prefer to let actions speak, actions speak louder.

MR. LEHRER: Everybody talks, including you, about this is a beginning, and everybody has their own definition of what the ending will be. What is your definition? Where is this headed if everything goes according to the way you want it to go?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: As we had declared two states solution, Palestinian state beside the Israeli state, and we are intending to start confederal relation with Yalta according to the free choice of the two peoples. This is -- since it is free, and new era for peace and the land of peace, and the center.

MR. LEHRER: A Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: East Jerusalem.

MR. LEHRER: East Jerusalem.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Not to forget, we went to Madrid according to President Bush initiative. Land for peace and implementation of 242 and 338. East Jerusalem had been occupied since '67. And for this till now the American administration are not accepting what the other side is saying.

MR. LEHRER: Well, Prime Minister Rabin --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: They have their, their Jerusalem, and we have our own Jerusalem. I know that the final status for Jerusalem will not be discussed now. I know it will be discussed later.

MR. LEHRER: Well, Prime Minister --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: And they will say what about, what about the Jewish holy places? We can find a way for it. If there is a will, there is a way.

MR. LEHRER: So when Prime Minister Rabin says that Jerusalem -- and he said it just a while ago again -- that Jerusalem --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: I listened to him politically. He didn't mention unified Jerusalem. He mentioned Jerusalem.

MR. LEHRER: He says that it's a peace --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: He mentioned Jerusalem. He didn't mention unified Jerusalem.

MR. LEHRER: Okay.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: I am a politician. I am giving those facts and realities.

MR. LEHRER: So you do not believe -- as we sit here now -- you think that Jerusalem -- even though you're saying one thing, he's saying another, and people are going to interpret --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: We will find and solve.

MR. LEHRER: It can be solved.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: We can find the solution for it, no doubt of it, if there is a will because if, if he has one red line for -- as they used to repeat -- we have other. We have many red lines, not only one red line, Palestinian red line, Arab red line, Christian red line, Muslim red line. But in the same time we have to look in our consideration that there are Jewish holy places. We have to respect, and we have to find a solution for it.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Chairman, what is your reaction to the killing of the four Israelis, the three soldiers and the other Israeli by terrorists yesterday?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Not only on the other side. We have two have been killed in Gaza. I think we will -- we have to expect till the implementation of this record, this agreement on the ground, and for this I am looking not only for this agreement on the papers, how to implement it on the ground. This is a heavy duty and very, very important, and very difficult responsibility. We have to coordinate, all of us, even with the American administration, with the others how to implement this on the ground, not only to write it on the papers.

MR. LEHRER: Do you have sympathy for the Palestinians who attacked those Israeli soldiers?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: First of all, we have rejected on the grounds all kind of violences from any place it comes to be against me or to be against the others.

MR. LEHRER: As a practical matter, what do you believe that you and the PLO can do to stop these kind of violent acts?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: We have to see why this action is going on, because there is occupation. The moment we will find the solution for this problem of occupation I am sure that this will facilitate everything, and we will start the withdrawal from Gaza Strip and Jericho area as a start for the withdrawal and the other, and the other area it will be Palestinian interim self-authority. And national authority in Gaza Strip and Jericho, while there be confrontation.

MR. LEHRER: Do you plan to reach out to those elements in the Palestinian movement who disagree with this peace agreement, who are in opposition to you, and may even be behind yesterday's terror?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: How many are against Maastricht Agreement? How many? Salt II, Salt III, Salt I? All the agreements have oppositions and supporters. This is life.

MR. LEHRER: But do you plan to bring those people on board?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Yes, we had already started, and after, after leaving here already we have an open, an open dialogue with them, and it will start in Sunai Nemeh.

MR. LEHRER: And you're hopeful that you can bring those people - -

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Yes, I am sure.

MR. LEHRER: -- and explain that to them.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: It's not the first time, and it will not be the last time.

MR. LEHRER: That's right. That's right. Mr. Chairman, let's say there is a terrorist act under self-rule after the Gaza becomes under the new agreement and there's a terrorist act. What do you understand to be the responsibility of the Palestinian government, whatever it is, to do? I mean, what is -- what have you all -- what have you agreed to do?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: It is much responsibility. It is not only Palestinian responsibility, much more responsibility, but the responsibility of both of us exactly as I have mentioned in my speech today, my responsibility and their responsibility. What is the meaning of the new era for the nation?

MR. LEHRER: What is your -- just speaking personally -- what is your own, how has your own attitude and opinions about Israel and the Israeli people changed?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Look! It is not only a joke when the Israelis voted for the Labor Party and for merits. They vote for their political program to achieve peace, and it is not a joke that our PNC had accepted to go, to attend Madrid Conference. It is not a joke because they want peace. Two desires: For this we have achieved what we have achieved. Are not only an agreement between the heads. Unless there is a strong platform, it will not be able for both of us to achieve it on the upper level.

MR. LEHRER: But the years of animosity, the years of fighting and bloodshed, can that quickly be turned off and --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: We have to remember what happened after the Second World War that the unity of, of Europe had started between France and Germany, and after that in Europe. You have to remember.

MR. LEHRER: Yes.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: And the same now between you and Yeltsin. You have supported him recently to face his troubles. Who can believe it two years ago before the Berlin Wall? This is new era, new order.

MR. LEHRER: Has there ever been a more important few moments for you in your life than those moments you had this morning on the platform there --

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Yes.

MR. LEHRER: -- at the White House?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: No doubt, this has, as I have mentioned, give my people more confident to face their very difficult life.

MR. LEHRER: When you -- you still wear the uniform, a military uniform. I noticed when you arrived here in Washington.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: I am still -- not forget, I'm not only the chairman of PLO, I am the, the commander in chief, commander of our forces.

MR. LEHRER: But what is your state of mind now? Are you still - - do you see that you are at war, you are leading a Palestinian people at war?

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: No, no. This is -- Gen. Powell was beside me today. This is a part of our life in any, in any country -- you have to protest against power.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN ARAFAT: Thank you. CONVERSATION

MR. MacNeil: Prominent among the 3,000 guests at the White House ceremony was former President Jimmy Carter. Fifteen years ago, the former President negotiated the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt. He now runs the Carter Center, which monitors foreign elections. This afternoon Mr. Carter talked with Margaret Warner. She asked him what results today's accords would bring to the Middle East.

PRESIDENT CARTER: I think this agreement, which is long overdue in my opinion, will open some new doors, not only doors of opportunity for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, particularly Gaza and Jericho now, but will open up the possibility for democracy for them, for honest elections to be held, the choosing of their own leaders, and the management of the details of their lives for education, health care, the building of houses, the repair of streets, the collection of taxes, handling of fresh water supplies, and to let them establish institutions among the Palestinians, themselves, which will be, I think, a relief for the Israelis, who can turn over those responsibilities to others but also demonstrate that the Palestinians can live in peace with their neighbors. The final point I'd like to make is that agreement between the Palestinians and Israel I think would be just a precursor for the rapid conclusion of basic agreements between Israel and Jordan, which will then leave Syria and Lebanon. And my guess is, knowing President Asad very well, that he will not want to be left behind, that he'll want to be part of the overall peace agreement. But the first thing that had to be done was the Palestinian agreement.

MS. WARNER: What do you think it says about Israel as a society and as a people, that it's ready to take this risk now, when, of course, it's been surrounded for decades by hostility on all sides?

PRESIDENT CARTER: Well, I've never had any doubt that the people of Israel want peace and they want to get along with their neighbors. They want to live their own lives without, you know, military attack or without terrorist acts taking place. But I also know quite well that the Palestinians want peace, the Palestinian farmers, the mothers, students, and pharmacists, and school teachers among the Palestinians want peace. And obviously the Jordanians and Syrians want peace. So the people have been the factor that has caused me to have some element of confidence even in discouraging days.

MS. WARNER: When the leadership was lagging behind?

PRESIDENT CARTER: The leadership was lagging behind. I made the same statement when I spoke to the Knesset in March of 1979. I said the leaders are the obstacles to peace. Now we've seen a new group of leaders come out and take a very courageous step forward, not only Foreign Minister Peres and Prime Minister Rabin, but also Chairman Arafat. And I think and hope that their expression of confidence in the future will be profoundly significant even for those in the past that have reacted violently against the sort of peace process, most of which was caused by the lack of trust of the other side. Now, they've got to build up this trust.

MS. WARNER: But, of course, these are the same old leaders. You know Arafat probably better than most former or certainly current American officials. When did you sense that he'd given up the dream of reclaiming all of Palestine, that he was ready to compromise or looking for a way?

PRESIDENT CARTER: Well, the first that I met with Arafat was a good number of years ago in Paris, and one of the most interesting things he said to me was that he thought the Camp David Accords were the basic principles on which any agreement had to be worked out for the Palestinians, and he was regretful that he did not endorse the Camp David Accords back in 1978 and build on them then.

MS. WARNER: And when was this that you had this meeting?

PRESIDENT CARTER: It was probably 1986 or 1986. I would say six or seven years ago. Another thing that's always been difficult for the Palestinians is to take part of a loaf. They were depending full independence, immediate independent Palestinian state, all of the West Bank and Gaza to be returned as a first step. And this is something, obviously, that could not possibly happen. So now their willingness to go step by step and in each step before another one is taken to prove their good faith, to prove their sincere commitment to peace, to prove that they do respect their neighbors, the Israelis, is something that's new for them.

MS. WARNER: The Israelis are describing this limited autonomy going into this period as a testing period or interim period. But do you think there's any turning back?

PRESIDENT CARTER: No, I don't think so. There are a lot of predictions of increasing violence in Gaza. I really don't think there's any rational reason for this pessimistic view. You still have the Israeli security forces in Gaza to protect the overall defense of Gaza and also to protect the Israeli settlers there. In addition, you'll have a new police force made up of Palestinians. When I met with Chairman Arafat when he arrived in Washington, I questioned him quite severely about what his plans were for the future, would he set up an understandable, comprehensible institution to deal with say education or housing or street repair? He said, yes. And I asked him, would you bring in the Hamas Party leaders who have opposed the peace agreement, and he said, yes, that's one of his major goals is to bring in all the Palestinian groups, those who have been supportive and those who have not. Also, I know from our experience in trying to bring democracy to a number of countries around the world that give people a chance to vote and elect their own leaders and to present their views and to debate issues is a good escape valve for pent up fears and emotions. So democracy offers people a chance to have alternatives to violence. And as we go into the next phase in the West Bank and Gaza, i.e. a holding of an election to choose Palestinian leaders democratically, I think this will be another factor to reduce tensions. There are still going to be problems. There is still going to be violence. There are still going to be acts of atrocity maybe on both sides with the people who believe that they are endowed by God with a commitment to preserve this land for us and no one else. This would apply obviously to some of the Palestinians and also perhaps to some of the Israeli settlers.

MS. WARNER: Of course, the plight of the Palestinians and the hatred for Israel, wouldn't you agree, also has been a great alibi for Arab leaders, for the poverty of their people, for the lack of democracy. Do you see any kind of ripple effect in that regard, or is that too utopian, too unrealistic?

PRESIDENT CARTER: No, I don't think it's too utopian. When we signed the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, Egypt was boycotted by almost all the other Arab countries. Sadat was assassinated shortly thereafter, and still the peace treaty has prevailed and is a vivid proof that progress is possible, that even under threats from extremists who want to disrupt the process. I think that the, that the insolubility of the Palestinian issue has been kind of a focal point around which the militants, the terrorists, the rejectionists could marshal their efforts, and now to see this focal point renewed and harmony evolving between the Palestinians and Israel is going to mean that there's not as much of an excuse for violence and so forth as there was in the past.

MS. WARNER: Well, before we go, Mr. President, let me just you this. You've been very visible around this event and giving many interviews for which we're grateful. Are you interested in playing any kind of a role in the American role to come here?

PRESIDENT CARTER: Well, as a matter of fact, I've offered to do that. I made it clear that I would be glad to, but I have not been needed to do it. I would say that in the future we might very well be invited to go in and help orchestrate the election in the West Bank and Gaza areas for the choosing of Palestinian leaders, and if the Palestinian groups want us to do this, which they certainly do very avidly, if the Israelis are willing for that, then we would add this to our long list of countries within which we have gone to put together and to monitor democratic processes. So that's one thing that we would certainly do. And our primary interest at the Carter Center is in Africa and in the destitute countries in Latin America like Guyana and Haiti and so forth. So I would guess that we'll concentrate on those countries where nobody else wants to be interested, Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, things like that.

MS. WARNER: Well, thank you, Mr. President, very much for being with us.

PRESIDENT CARTER: It's been a pleasure. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: In the day's other news, there were new clashes between U.N. troops and Somalis in the Somali capital Mogadishu. The two-hour battle began after the U.N. troops came under fire while conducting a search for illegal weapons. U.N. helicopter gunships responded. Three U.S. soldiers were slightly wounded in the fighting. A spokesman for fugitive warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid claimed 25 Somalis were killed. Astronauts on the orbiting space shuttle Discovery released a scientific satellite today. The ultraviolet telescope will trail behind the shuttle for seven days, gathering images of stars before it's retrieved and brought back to Earth by the shuttle. TheDiscovery was launched yesterday, after almost two months of delays. President Clinton agreed to allow American businesses to compete on a limited basis in Vietnam, but he also extended the overall trade embargo imposed in 1975. Spokeswoman Dee Dee Myers said the move was intended to reward Vietnamese cooperation in accounting for American POW's and MIA's, but to make clear that more needed to be done. RECAP

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.