The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Interview with Lady Bird Johnson

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ROBERT MacNEIL [voice-over]: Looking at America at 70: a conversation with former First Lady Lady Bird Johnson.

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MacNEIL: Good evening. We'd like to take a pause from the rush of news about politics and the economy this evening for a little quiet reflection with a remarkable woman. She is Lady Bird Johnson, the former First Lady who celebrates her 70th birthday this week. Although her years at the center of the political hurricane are past, Mrs. Johnson remains an extremely active senior citizen. And some of the turmoil she lived with as the wife of one of the dominant political figures of the century has been revived recently with the publication of several books that have created fresh controversies about the Johnson years. Mrs. Johnson is with us tonight at the studios of public television station KLRU in her hometown, Austin, Texas. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Mrs. Johnson, welcome.

LADY BIRD JOHNSON: Thank you.

LEHRER: First, do you have any special feelings or thoughts about the fact that you're about to turn 70?

LADY BIRD: Well, remarkably, like I've been feeling all along. Nothing cataclysmic new about it. Made the acquaintance with arthritis along the way, and my memory is not as good as it was, and I have to say a lot more no's to things because I don't have the energy I had. But my enthusiasm for life is still at high pitch.

LEHRER: You're still very active in a lot of things. For instance, your beautification and conservation activity goes on full blast, does it not?

LADY BIRD: I'm hooked on that for my life, and then there are lots of other things. I'm on two bank boards -- Texas Commerce and Texas Bank Shares -- and the National Geographic board of directors, and the National Park Service takesa part of my interest. But of course the core of it is my two daughters and my seven grandchildren.

LEHRER: I understand that part of the celebration of your birthday this week is going to be the announcement of a new wildlife center there in Austin or near Austin that you're setting up. Tell me about that.

LADY BIRD: Wildflower center.

LEHRER: Wildflower. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was close.

LADY BIRD: National wildflower research center.

LEHRER: Tell me about that.

LADY BIRD: This is an idea that has been alluringly going around and around in my mind for many years with all the work on beautification in White House days, with the work since back in Texas. A bunch of wonderful citizens, and I got to be one of them, working on building a hike-and-bike trail along the lower Colorado River here in the heart of town. And my highway maintenance foreman's program to perpetuate the growth of wildflowers along the rights of way of Texas highways. Well, my life is full of that kind of activity, and so this is just something that's been beckoning me and calling to me all that time, and you know, when you reach 70, you just suddenly -- you have a sense of freedom. If you're ever going to do something you'd better start doing it then. So I'm going to throw my hat over the windmill, so to speak, and announce it and have the first big committee meeting on my birthday, Wednesday, the 22nd.

LEHRER: I see. What else are you going to do on your birthday?

LADY BIRD: Committee meeting in the morning; then at 2 o'clock we'll go out to the land that I am giving and we'll have a sort of ground-breaking ceremony. All of this, from my standpoint is sort of -- I want to make a gift to the country for my -- well, for the space I've taken up in the world, the fun I've had here -- sort of rent, so to speak, for living. And it's marvelous to think that I'm joined by a very enthusiastic group of people, like-minded folks who have worked with me on many of these endeavors, and we have an IRS tax-exempt status, and we've had a few gifts already. And so we are going to get started. And then that night my daughters are going to give me a party about which I know very little. It's all their idea. I don't know what's going to happen -- almost anything. This is Lucy and Lynda's way of saying, "We love you."

LEHRER: I see. You talked about paying the rent for your life. As you know, you're often described as being the perfect political wife, having been the perfect political wife. Is that a description that bothers you, or do you like that description? Is it accurate?

LADY BIRD: No, I don't think it's really accurate because I was never knowledgeable and deeply versed. It was the man that I cared about and wanted to be a good wife to. And then he led me through all those years of being a congressional secretary to a member of the House of Representatives to a member of the Senate. By that time -- 30-odd years in Washington -- to a great feeling of respect for public service, and of just being willing to do anything I could to help further the aims that he believed in and that I tried to help him on. Like his aims on civil rights and bringing into the field of national agenda the environment and all the education bills and health care and health research bills. So it's not that I knew a thing in this world about parliamentary procedure or delegations or making speeches.

LEHRER: You made a lot of speeches.

LADY BIRD: I just wanted to be a part of the helping machinery.

LEHRER: You know, it's often said, Mrs. Johnson, that a political wife or a woman who marries a politician surrenders her own life and her own identity to the ambition and career of her husband. Is that -- was that the way it was for you?

LADY BIRD: I think about the first little speech I ever tried to stand up and make, which was about two lines long, was written on the back of an envelope and it went something like this: that a life spent in public service can be a good life for a man and his wife. I didn't think of it as surrendering. I thought of it as joining it and teamwork. Which is not to say it is what I would have chosen in the beginning, because I came from a childhood and a growing up -- the people I knew did not think all that highly of politics. A preferable pursuit would have been owning a lot of land, being a doctor or a lawyer. But when Lyndon became a politician -- and I guess it's fair to say that as a secretary to a congressman he was already a politician when we married -- that became my life too, and I learned it.

LEHRER: Did you have any regrets as a mother as a result of your experience when your daughter Lynda became a politician's wife as a result of her husband Chuck Robb's decision to enter Virginia politics?

LADY BIRD: Well, when people used to ask me that question a good many years ago, I would sort of proudly tilt my chin and say if my children have got enough -- if they're smart enough and tough enough and good enough, I'd be proud for them to go into public service. I must say that that feeling was considerably battered and buffeted by a few years of -- when it was just -- politicians' lives have become rougher and rougher. It takes so much money; you're so open to public abuse or you're questioned -- everything you do is questioned. And so it was with trepidation and concern that I heard that Chuck had made up his mind to go into politics. Now, you see, he didn't ask me.

LEHRER: I see.

LADY BIRD: So, but that's the way. Now that he's done it and he is smart enough and tough enough and good enough, then we do the best we can.

LEHRER: I see. Robin?

MacNEIL: Are you still active at all politically yourself, Mrs. Johnson?

LADY BIRD: I'm a staunch Democrat and expect to remain so, and I go to some public meetings, not many; make some contributions; strongly support my wonderful congressman, Jake Pickle, and my senator, Lloyd Bentsen. But I do not make speeches, I do not play a substantive role. I'm indulging myself in doing all those things that I put on the shelf for so long -- travels and times around the fireside playing cards of watching them do charades and skits with my grandchildren, and working on my conservation, beautification projects and all the boards which I've mentioned to you.

MacNEIL: Well, although you're very modest about your own political knowledge, you've lived through, and at close hand, more things than almost any other American woman has done. May I just ask you a couple of questions? For instance, how do you feel about --

LADY BIRD: I may not know the answers, but ask.

MacNEIL: Well, you must have some feelings about it. How do you feel about the direction the country has taken politically in the last few years?

LADY BIRD: If you're asking me, is it swinging to the right, yes, I think it is. But I think that that's a historic phenomenon. In our 200 years we have swung a good many times.

MacNEIL: Do you have a feeling that that's a fairly permanent swing this time to the right, or do you expect the pendulum to come back closer to what your husband and his inspirational figure, FDR, thought of government?

LADY BIRD: I do not know that -- I do not believe we can expect much permanence in this world, no. I think there will be other swings, and I'm certainly not wise enough to predict when or to what degree.

MacNEIL: You said in an interview a couple of years ago with McCall's magazine I read this morning that your husband would have suffered a lot more -- and you didn't mean physically, but spiritually -- because of the things that happened to this country. What things did you have in mind?

LADY BIRD: At that time I was thinking of the things that happened to the presidency.

MacNEIL: Yeah. You mean --

LADY BIRD: The things that happened in the few years after he departed life -- Lyndon did -- in January of '73. The next several years were traumatic.

MacNEIL: And you feel that would have given him a lot more distress?

LADY BIRD: Oh, yes.

MacNEIL: Some people think of the Reagan presidency and Reaganomics as a kind of undoing of your husband's Great Society. Do you see it that way? When you look at what's happened over the last couple of years, do you see the Great Society being picked apart, and do you have feelings about that?

LADY BIRD: Let's think about it a minute. A lot of things are going to suffer economically because of the condition of the country, as everything is suffering. But also there are a lot of things that are so much a part of the fabric of this land that we forget that it was ever different.

And I grew up at a time -- and this still existed all during the time when we were in the House and in the Senate -- when there would be signs in public places -- in depots and so forth, above the water fountain -- "Whites Only." And maybe there would be one that would say "Blacks" and maybe no other one. And they're over the toilets. Oh, dear me, for heavens sakes. There was a sign, "White Ladies Only," and then another one that said "Colored." When I would travel from Austin to Washington with my, shall I say black -- my colored maid and my little children, and it would come time to stop and go in and get a meal, I knew that I could not take Otha Ree or Helen into a cafe along with us. It would have been an unpleasant scene. I went in and the children and I ate and then I said, "I have a friend in the car. And would you please put so-and-so on a tray and I'll take it out to her?" They could assume that the friend was a cripple; they could assume whatever they wanted to, and I would take it out to her. After we would stop at a hamburger place, which that was all right, they would send it out. It was worse than that when we were to spend the night, and it was always a problem. Same thing in picture shows; same thing in even -- in liquor stores. A divided line. One on one side, one on the other. You know, that is so far out of our memory now. Does anyone remember it? It is so much a part of the fabric of our life that blacks can use the vote, can maybe aspire to become a city councilman or a mayor, can get an education which will turn them into a lawyer or a doctor. There's a difference in the fabric of our society which has been pretty well digested, and I don't think that is about to go back. Also there are other things that are lasting to a sizeable extent I think we find, still, Head Start around, and I know the community colleges that were springing up all over the land during our time -- for awhile at the rate of about one a week, a lot of them are still serving those people who want to get maybe a two-year college education close to home.

MacNEIL: So you think --

LADY BIRD: Or some of the lot more vocational.

MacNEIL: You think there are a lot of pieces of the Great Society that simply cannot be undone, do you? Because they're so embedded in the --

LADY BIRD: Oh, yes, I think they have become embedded, absorbed, a part of our life.

MacNEIL: Let me ask you this. You mentioned a moment ago that you're still a staunch Democrat. Do you feel that Democrats today have a clear vision of what the country needs and what they could do about it? Are you happy with your party in that way?

LADY BIRD: I have to tell you that I am not enough of a student of it to know, and I think that there's a lot of confusion among all of us -- Democrats, Republicans and everybody -- and there are less closely hewed, rigidly followed lines now. There are ever so many people, it seems to me, that are not either -- always Democrats, always Republicans; there are a lot more independents.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you.

LADY BIRD: And there's a lot of confusion and uncertainty.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Mrs. Johnson, as I'm sure you know, there are several new books out about your husband. Have you read any of them?

LADY BIRD: No, sir. Which is not to say I don't know something about some of them because I have seen some reviews, and then my friends come rushing up and say something. And then I do get some mail. I remember I got quite a lot of warm, amusing, sweet mail about Merle Miller's book.

LEHRER: Why don't you read the books?

LADY BIRD: I have an odd feeling it was my life, I lived it; I knew what Lyndon was like. To -- I do not want to see what this person thinks about it. Maybe sometime in the rocking chair sitting on the front porch, maybe I'll get around to it. And there's another reason. From some of the things that my friends say and from some of the reviews, I can see a hostility, a complete misunderstanding -- apparently, a portrait of a human being I would -- never knew. And so why should I expose myself to resentment, anger, bitterness -- all of those things -- or use up energy. And I've got better things to do with my energy. I just don't believe in sticking pins in yourself or lying down on a bed of nails.

LEHRER: Well, the book that I'm sure your friends have told you the most about, or the one that has the most hostility, is the Robert Caro book. Let me just -- one quote from that book about Lyndon Johnson. Let me just read it to you and you tell me whether this is one of those things that you'd just as soon not hear. He says that Lyndon Johnson had "a seemingly bottomless capacity for deceit, deception and betrayal." Is that the Lyndon Johnson you knew?

LADY BIRD: Somebody that I never met. Certainly not Lyndon Johnson. Loyalty was written in capital letters in his heart.

LEHRER: You say that you're trying to avoid getting angry over these kinds of things, but you must have some -- what did you just feel then when I read that to you, say?

LADY BIRD: Felt like that wasn't a very -- it wouldn't be a good thing to spend the next 40 hours of my life doing. I understand that it's a tremendous book -- make a good doorstop. And I think there're going to be three more of them, is that it?

LEHRER: I think that's right. Four volumes altogether, yeah. Okay. But you know, Robert Caro says that in the beginning, when he first started the research on this, that you cooperated with him. You sat down, talked to him a lot.

LADY BIRD: Oh, certainly. I came to see -- I mean, he came to see me whenever he -- whenever he asked to I said yes, within the limits of my time and ability. I did notice something odd. The last time he came, he only stayed about -- he seemed uneasy and anxious to get out, and only stayed about five minutes and asked me, now, is there anything else you can remember about some certain question, and I said, "No, you asked me all about that, and that's all I can remember." And then he got up and made his departure. And that is the last I've seen him. And, but --

LEHRER: Did you -- sure, go ahead, excuse me.

LADY BIRD: I just wanted to say that in the broad picture I think one might observe that there has been a spate of books about public figures lately -- even about President Kennedy, who was so much loved and lauded -- a spate about -- that were tearing down and that seem to set denigration as their goal. I guess it's a fashion. I guess it makes money. I think it will pass. At the same time, this business of writing about extremely active presidents goes on. There have been, I think -- I know of two and maybe three books about Theodore Roosevelt -- who has been out of office at least 75 years, hasn't he --

LEHRER: Yes, ma'am.

LADY BIRD: -- within the last several years, and I've just finished reading one. A terrific book in which he is certainly no saint, but a mighty interesting man. A fair book, it seems to me, who looks at him across the -- through the lens of 75 years and didn't know him.

LEHRER: And you think that the same thing will happen to Lyndon Johnson if another book is written in 75 years?

LADY BIRD: Who knows? And who knows when, but I know that there are fashions in writing books, as in all things, and I know that there are good, sound things, and that times change.

LEHRER: Robin?

MacNEIL: Ms. Johnson, you were talking about civil rights and so on a moment ago. Looking at the country now -- you've been in it for 70 years in a couple of days. Looking at the country now, not politically but just personally, do you think that in this time that Americans have become more selfish, less caring about civil rights, less caring about poverty, less concerned with the happiness of other people than themselves? Do you have a feeling about the country now, the way that society is going?

LADY BIRD: You mean less caring than when?

MacNEIL: Well, I'm thinking back, perhaps during the '60s, during the time of the Great Society. I wonder if you have a strong feeling about that -- just the way American society is evolving.

LADY BIRD: I do think we tried so hard during that decade that maybe we are taking a breather, and I think there is a tendency to be more selfish. On the other hand, I live -- I live way out in the country, praise the Lord -- at least that's my -- my heart's home, but I live close to a little community which is a very caring community. We have a hospice program in our church. We just heard on Sunday that a family's house had burned down, and before the week was over a lot of people had collected money and taken a starter out to the folks. There is a lot of caring. Government isn't the only way to express it.

MacNEIL: Does that mean -- well, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

LADY BIRD: Well, it's just in the hearts of all of us, I think to greater or less degree. We really reached a pitch of hopefulness in the '60s and a pitch of determination. And Lyndon was a large part of that, I think. But then we had a strong economy, and oh, how he did set his hopes on the business world and the American economy, and the will of the Americans to outwork and outthink anybody else.

MacNEIL: Well, wehave to leave you there, Mrs. Johnson. May we wish you a happy birthday? Thank you very much for joining us tonight.

LADY BIRD: Thank you.

MacNEIL: Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: That's all for tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.