The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

INTRO

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. The Lebanon story dominated the news again today. Israeli planes made a heavy raid on guerilla positions in Syrian-controlled Lebanon. President Reagan rolled out the red carpet for Navy flier Lieutenant Robert Goodman and Jesse Jackson, the Democratic presidential candidate who got the Syrians to release him. We'll cover all the events in Washington and examine what it is that makes Jesse Jackson tick. Jim Lehrer is off; Judy Woodruff is in Washington. Judy?

JUDY WOODRUFF: And in other news tonight, while the administration praises the Salvadoran army's crackdown on death squads, their rebel opponents are resting after two big victories. We'll take a look at the battlefield situation. And also the drug interferon, hailed as a wonder medicine when it was first introduced, it slipped from public view, but now it's getting its reputation back. We'll find out why.

MacNEIL: Israeli planes today bombed pro-Iranian guerrilla bases in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley, and Beirut Radio said more than 100 people were killed and 400 wounded. Sixteen Israeli jets attacking in waves bombed a cluster of villages around the city of Baalbek. They destroyed the Lebanese police headquarters just south of Baalbek and a Shiite Muslim cultural center both used by militiamen. They also hit a Palestinian refugee camp called al-Jaleel, killing 15 and wounding 42 Palestinians, including women and children. Among those wounded was a commander of the anti-Arafat PLO forces, Fakhar al-Assad, who was flown to Damascus for treatment. It was the ninth and heaviest air strike by Israel in Lebanon since a terrorist truck bombing which killed 29 Israelis and 32 Arabs in Tyre on November 4th. Yesterday Israeli planes attacked Druse-held positions in the mountains east of Beirut. Israel has said it will continue striking at bases in Syrian-controlled parts of Lebanon until the threat of guerrilla attacks is eliminated.

Meanwhile, Israeli government leaders discussed ways of reducing Israeli casualties in southern Lebanon. Two options reportedly being considered wered withdrawing some troops of Israel's occupying force or redeploying the force closer to the Israeli border.

In Beirut there was word of political progress.Lebanese Prime Minister Shafik Wazzan said that the government and leaders of Lebanon's warring factions had agreed on a new plan to stop their fighting. The plan calls for disengagement of some Shiite, Druse and Christian militiamen and their replacement by foreign observers.

And in Washington, attitudes to the Lebanese situation were decidedly upbeat.

Judy?

WOODRUFF: A spokesman for President Reagan said today the United States is deeply interested in the Gemayel plan. Larry Speakes said that if an agreement is reached on a comprehensive security plan for Lebanon with all factions agreeing, we would regard it as a positive step. He said American officials are following developments.

Speakes' comments came as the White House was preparing a big welcome for Navy Lieutenant Robert Goodman and the Reverend Jesse Jackson. The two arrived at Andrews Air Force Base early this morning after an overnight flight from Germany during which Goodman ate a thick steak. There was a noisy crowd on the ground waiting to cheer them.

Lieutenant ROBERT GOODMAN, Jr., U.S. Navy: I thought daily about the POW experience that I had been trained to withstand and the type of POW experience the guys had experienced in Vietnam. I would like to take from that experience and tell you one quote that a gentleman said when he came back from Vietnam, and that's "God bless America!" Thanks a lot! What Makes Jackson Tick?

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: Jackson, who is running for the Democratic nomination for President, was just as exuberant and compared his journey to Syria to famous examples of presidential diplomacy.

Rev. JESSE JACKSON, Democratic presidential candidate: Nixon to China, Carter to Camp David -- great moves in foreign policy are initiated by presidents and leaders. I appeal to President Reagan and President Assad to meet with each other to discuss and share visits. I think the President ought to meet with all of the leaders of the Middle East and the world. If the events of this week prove anything, they prove that there is value in talking. And, finally, that if the leaders talk and reason together, great things happen.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: A little later, President Reagan greeted Jackson and Goodman at the White House and carefully avoided mentioning his initial coolness toward the Jackson mission. After a private meeting with them, Mr. Reagan praised both his visitors and suggested that Syria's gesture in setting Goodman free might lead to better relations with that country.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: And all of us are delighted to see Lieutenant Robert Goodman free, safe and reunited with his family. This young naval officer was flying a mission of peace and both during and after he exemplified qualities of leadership and loyalty, qualities of so many fine men and women in our military that we're all proud of.Reverend Jackson's mission was a personal mission of mercy, and he has earned our gratitude and our admiration. Lieutenant Goodman's release affords us a unique opportunity to -- well, I took advantage of the opportunity to write to the president of Syria and call for Syrian cooperation in securing peace in Lebanon. Last night Don Rumsfeld left to seek diplomatic solutions to the problems of the region and today, on this happy occasion, let all of us unite in a renewed determination to achieve a lasting stability and the withdrawal of all foreign forces from Lebanon.

Rev. JACKSON: President Reagan had the option to stop our mission; he had the option to interfere or to intervene, and he did neither. And we felt that the fact that he made the choice to not intervene or interfere was significant to us. I would hope that the cycle of pain is now broken and that this mission of peace would take us to an everlasting peace. President Assad used this opportunity to seize an initiative, and we want to express our thanks to him. The fact that President Reagan has already sent him a letter is a sign that when the minds of leaders come together and their hearts agree, we do have the capacity to save this generation from disaster.

WOODRUFF: Jackson briefed the President on his lengthy conversation with Syrian President Assad a few days ago. Nothing more was said today about Goodman's comments to reporters yesterday about the Syrians' having hit him several times during his first few days of captivity. Goodman said he thought they were trying to scare him.

Robin?

MacNEIL: A lot of Americans must be wonderng today what it was in Jesse Jackson's personality or approach that persuaded the Syrians to release Goodman to him, and wondering a little more about Jackson the man -- like where he comes from and what makes him tick. Charlayne Hunter-Gault has been watching Jesse Jackson for many years, and she can tell us more. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Jesse Jackson is now and always has been a man of many faces. Even those who profess to know him well find the 42-year-old activist something on an enigma.

[voice-over] Jackson is fond of describing himself as just a country preacher. He is that, but he also studied theology at the University of Chicago. During the '60s he carved out a place for himself in the civil rights leadership as head of People United to Serve Humanity -- PUSH, a black self-help organization stressing economics. Even then he was different.

VERNON JORDAN, former president, National Urban League: He is a super gadfly. I think the -- Martin [Luther King] was a gadfly. Not bound by organizational tradition, not bound by organizational governance problems. He's always figuring the angle. He's always figuring what he can do, where he can be, how he can maximize what it is he wants to do and how he himself must be the focal point in that effort.

Rev. JACKSON: Our mission is to treat poor folks right and lift them from the pit of life.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Whatever else he did, Jackson stayed anchored in the black church. He made his decision to enter the ministry during his days as a student leader at North Carolina A&T College.

SAMUEL PROCTOR, North Carolina A&T College: He was strung for heavy-duty service. He was not put together to do small things. Some people come to us like that -- already packaged, you know. They have got the language skill, they have got the scope, the breadth. They've got it all. The black person of his temperament does not have many opportunities and outlets for leadership. Big law firms don't hire them; they can't get into Congress that easily. Other major private organizations don't look to them when they're looking for leaders. But the church is there and it belongs to us. Moreover, the church gives so much amplitude. I mean, you can do almost anything in terms of leadership from a pulpit.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Over the next 20 years Jackson's life was heavily influenced by Martin King and the civil rights movement. His activities today, including his big Southern voter registration effort that launched his presidential bid, are reminiscent of his days in the movement. Only now he has clearly moved to a bigger arena and a broader agenda.

Rev. JACKSON: The ministers risked much on this mission of mercy but remained steady and resolved throughout our mission. Narrowly conceived, this mission was a political risk but not a moral risk. It was the right thing to do.

HUNTER-GAULT: A closer look now at Jesse Jackson, the man and his mission. For that we have the Reverend WyattT. Walker, who accompanied Reverend Jackson to Syria. Reverend Walker is pastor of the Canaan Baptist Church in New York City and a former chief of staff for Dr. Martin Luther King. We also have Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young, also a former aide to Dr. King who has known Jesse Jackson from the '60s. He is with us in Atlanta at the studios of Georgia Public Television.

Dr. Walker, you just heard Reverend Jackson say that you on this mission risked much politically but not morally. I mean, can you just expound on that just a little bit?

WYATT T. WALKER: Yes, the deliberation of whether we should go or not was always made in the moral arena. We contend, those of us who are religiously based, that whatever the consequences of right impulse is that even if by secular or political standards we lose, if you have started from a moral position you still win. As we talked on conference telephone calls the few days before we left, the count-down for departure, I insisted, as did Mr. Jackson, against some other advisers that all we had to do was do what was right, and we did not need to be overly concerned with how what we were doing would be interpreted.

HUNTER-GAULT: Was this Reverend Jackson's move? I mean, his impetus --

Dr. WALKER: Oh, yes. It was conceived December 19th in Memphis, Tennessee, as a mission that he wanted to send a group of ecumenical leaders to Syria. The initial plan did not include him as a member in the group.

HUNTER-GAULT: But why did you think this kind of appeal would be successful with the Syrians? I mean, were there any signals or were there any discussions that he had had with the Syrians beforehand that --

Dr. WALKER: Well, I must bring to mind, without any intent to embarrass anybody, there is a mind-fix in the white mentality in America that black people are not and cannot be expert in matters of foreign affairs. That simply isn't true. And neither by experience nor by the record. Mr. Reagan has not been to the Mideast; he has not been to Africa. Jesse Jackson has been to the Mideast and he's been to Africa. So just on the basis of experience, first-hand experience alone, Mr. Jackson was equipped along with some others of us -- I, myself have been in the Mideast 18 different times. This was my 19th trip to the Mideast. And just because I'm a Baptist minister from Harlem does not disqualify me as a specialist in Mideast concerns.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, how -- I mean, Jackson at the airport today talked about breaking the -- that Assad had broken the cycle of pain and so on. I mean, how did those discussions go? What did Jesse Jackson and the rest of you say to the Syrians and President Assad?

Dr. WALKER: Well, at the top of this show you had -- and I'm being ironic -- the "good news" about the Israeli strikes within the Lebanese territory. And what Jesse Jackson's new form of initiative represents is to change that. All we had --

HUNTER-GAULT: But excuse me. What specifically, if you can just give us a little hint, because we have nothing, at this point, concrete in terms of the conversation that he had with President Assad in that 90-minute meeting he had with him. What did he say?

Dr. WALKER: Well, I mean, I can't repeat that because I was not present in that conversation.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, maybe you can give us some general --

Dr. WALKER: But what I am saying is that he took it out of our cast-in-concrete traditional forms of diplomacy and went one-on-one on a very difficult and phony matter that is keeping us at the point -- flashpoint of larger conflict in the world,and perhaps nuclear confrontation between the Soviets and ourselves. And he took it to another level that we have not demonstrated. Everyone criticized before he left that this is not the way you conduct foreign policy, and yet the fact is tonight that Lieutenant Robert Goodman is home safe on the earth in the United States of America --

HUNTER-GAULT: And did --

Dr. WALKER: And we did not use the cast-in-concrete diplomatic measures that we tried in the past.

HUNTER-GAULT: And did Reverend Jackson do most of the negotiating, most of the talking --

Dr. WALKER: I would say 95% of the talking was done by Mr. Jackson, and I would like to say that in the initial meeting with Foreign Secretary Khaddam, I think he gave one of the most brilliant extemporaneous responses to the hard line that the Syrian government has taken in the matter of the ensuing -- escalating military conflict that's developing in the Mideast between the U.S. and Syria.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, we want to come back to some of that in just a minute, but we also want to take a look at another aspect of Jackson which he tends to be rather guarded about, and that's his private life. Some of the clues, though, to what makes him tick lie in the small segregated town of Greenville, South Carolina, where he grew up.

Rev. JACKSON: You couldn't drink water at certain fountains. You couldn't use the bathroom downtown. And so the hurt being born black in the South, growing up under occupation created a certain inner-outer tension. Something within constantly saying that you deserve to be free, that you are somebody, and something on the outside saying that you can be if you do certain things. That was a kind of breeding toward confrontation.

[call and response with rally crowd: "I am somebody!"]

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Until recently, Jackson's litany mirrored his style -- a loner. But now he has begun to share the limelight with his family -- his two teenage sons who accompanied him to Syria, three other children, and his wife Jacqueline.

[on camera] Mayor Young in Atlanta, you've known Jesse Jackson for a very long time. Listening to him here and from what you know about his background, what do you think it is that explains his drive and his motivations?

ANDREW YOUNG: Well, I think that Jesse has a motivation really to make a lasting contribution to this nation and, frankly, to the kingdom of God. He is an intensely religious person. In a sense he's driven by the same kind of compulsion that we see driving the prophets of the Old Testament.He speaks of a determination to let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream, and I think he sees injustice in the world, wherever it is, and he takes it personally. And if there is anything that he can do about it, he is willing, I think sometimes recklessly, to thrust himself into that situation.

HUNTER-GAULT: Was this a reckless move he made?

Mayor YOUNG: No, I don't think so. This was a very good move. It was a move that I think was very sound diplomacy. After all, we have a situation where the American troops are really hunkered down on an airfield. There are 7,000 Russians and 50,000 Syrians nearby. Our ships are offshore. It's an indefensible position, and it's the kind of position where not only a truck might drive into that airfield, but where a kamikaze plane might fly into one of our ships and where, essentially, you have almost a situation that's very explosive and in a very explosive part of the world, and anything could ignite it.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, you -- excuse me, you seem to be applauding this personal kind of diplomacy, but one of the things that used to annoy civil rights leaders about Jesse Jackson was precisely this lone-wolf approach.

Mayor YOUNG: Well, I don't know that it ever annoyed me. And I always tried to judge a situation its merits, and I think it's really not very helpful to judge anybody's motives. And to discount their efforts because of their ego. You have to have an enormous ego to run for president. Lyndon Johnson, John Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan. These are men of enormous ego strength, and when somebody's black you shouldn't consider that a negative.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, you've heard this Jesse Jackson litany which we just heard on the tape -- "I am somebody!" -- and you also heard him go through this long list of great presidents and great leaders. Is that the Jesse Jackson that you know?I mean, is that the fairly typical Jesse Jackson?

Mayor YOUNG: In many ways it is. Jesse doesn't seem to have a public personality and a private personality. He's almost always -- you know, even if you're flying on a plane together, he's got a yellow pad out with an agenda talking about deep concerns. He doesn't know how to relax. And I think that that's one of the things that makes it hard for him to, say, be one of a crowd. But I see that as a strength, not as a weakness.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, Mayor Young in Atlanta, thank you, and Dr. Walker in New York, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Thayer, who is under investigation for stock transactions, resigned today. Thayer told President Reagan that the Securities and Exchange Commission plans to file a civil complaint alleging that he improperly divulged insider stock information while he was director of several companies. Thayer said the allegation was entirely without merit. President Reagan accepted his resignation with regret and credited Thayer with playing a key role in modernizing U.S. forces.

We'll be back in a moment.

[Video postcard -- Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania]

MacNEIL: A family fight for control of the Getty Oil Company apparently ended today with an offer to buy all the outstanding shares for $5.4 billion. The Pennzoil Company joined forces with Gordon Getty, the youngest son of the founder of Getty Oil, J. Paul Getty, in proposing the third-largest merger in American history. Gordon Getty and Pennzoil proposed to buy up the stock in the Getty company at $110 a share and then merge Getty Oil with Pennzoil into a new company. The new company would be valued at about $9 billion. The loser in the struggle for control of Getty Oil would be the elder son, J. Paul Getty, II, who has been the leader of another faction seeking to take over. On the New York Stock Exchange the price of Getty Oil stock went up 6-3/8 points today, closing at 104 1/2.

And, in a mood of optimism about interest rates, the Dow Jones average of 30 industrial stocks went up 16.31 points, closing at 1269.05 after a day of heavy trading.

Judy? Salvador Battle Status

WOODRUFF: The State Department today praised El Salvador for steps that it's taken to cut down extremist violence within the country. Officials called the statement by spokesman John Hughes an attempt to prepare public opinion for an administration request for more U.S. aid for El Salvador. Hughes noted that Salvadoran military officials, implicated in a number of killings, have been either arrested or removed from their posts. Officials in Washington say the Reagan administration has promised the Salvadoran government more military aid if that country does something to root out any officials involved with the notorious death squads. Spokesman Hughes said that the current level of U.S. aid is inadequate, especially after government forces were dealt two serious defeats over the weekend.Charles Krause has more.

CHARLES KRAUSE: What happened this weekend in El Salvador was the guerrillas overran an important army base and then destroyed a key highway bridge, further strengthening their position in the eastern third of El Salvador. Taken together, the guerrilla victories may have been a key turning point in the conflict.

[voice-over] At the very least, El Salvador's 5,000 to 7,000 guerrillas demonstrated this weekend that they have more military strength and tactical sophistication than had been previously thought. Their twin victories raise questions about the ability and dedication of El Salvador's armed forces, which have received more than $200-million worth of U.S. arms and training since 1981.

The army's first defeat last weekend came on Friday, when the guerrillas overran and destroyed the fourth infantry brigade headquarters in Chalatenango Province, only 36 miles from El Salvador's capital, San Salvador. It was the first time the rebels had captured a major army base. They killed about 100 government soldiers and claimed to have captured 200 more before the army retook the base 12 hours later. The attack demonstrated the guerrillas' ability to mass a large number of their troops -- reportedly about 800 -- on short notice to take advantage of gaps in the army's defenses.

Then, early Sunday morning, the guerrillas struck again. This time, they destroyed the vital Cuscatlan Bridge over the Lempa River, which divides the eastern third of El Salvador from the rest of the country. The bridge, along the Pan American Highway, links San Salvador with San Miguel, the country's third-largest city, where the government has a major military base and airfield. Two and a half years ago, the guerrillas destroyed the other major bridge over the Lempa, the Golden Bridge. As a result, the government's ability to resupply troops at bases in San Miguel, San Francicso Gotera and La Union has been severely diminished.

The rebel strategy has always been to gain control of the area east of the Lempa River. That hasn't happened yet, but by cutting the Cuscatlan Bridge and the Golden Bridge, the guerrillas appear to have moved much closer to achieving their objective. The army's inability to stop the guerrillas this weekend raises questions about its capacity and commitment to fight.

[in studio] Although the army high command supposedly canceled all holiday leaves over Christmas and New Year's the base in Chalatenango was reportedly lightly defended when the guerrillas attacked early last Friday, and on Sunday morning many of the troops assigned to guard the Lempa River bridge were reportedly off drinking, celebrating the New Year, when the rebels launched their attack and destroyed the bridge.

Judy?

WOODRUFF: For more on the military situation in El Salvador, we talk with Edward King, a former lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army. Mr. King spent nearly 23 years in the Army and served as the representative of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on the U.S. delegation to the Inter-American Defense Board. He is now a consultant on military and political affairs in Central America. He travels to the region frequently and he was last there in December, when he talked with government and guerrilla fighters.

Mr. King, is the Salvadoran army about to collapse?

EDWARD KING: I think they're in serious condition. They have had a continuing problem with their command and their control, their communications, their intelligence. Their leadership has been a very serious problem. That's been deteriorating now for over a year and a half, and I think it continues to do that, and I see no way you're going to change that trend.

WOODRUFF: Why is that? I mean, after all the money the United States has poured in and the training -- the advisers and so forth -- what's gone wrong?

Lieutenant Col. KING: Well, being an old infantryman, people don't fight for money. In the Salvadoran army the soldiers try as hard as they can. They have problems with their leadership. They have a shortage of noncommissioned officers. They have serious problems in their organizational and tactical employment, and they don't have a will to die. And they don't have a will to die because there's no incentive for them there to close with and destroy the enemy. They have problems in their units. They turn their units over on a two-year draft. No one serves more than two years. Those of us here who remember the Korean and Vietnam wars, where we kept our troops rotating every year know that that makes a very unstable unit. Your leadership is very weak in those kind of units, and basically, what's the incentive for them to fight? If they get hit, one and two of them are going to die. It takes them 12 hours to get them to a hospital. There's no medical treatment. If they survive that, there's no VA. They're put out in the street to put them or a board and roll around in the streets with no legs. There's just nothing for these kids to get up and want to die for.

WOODRUFF: Well, wouldn't more American aid make the situation much better?

Lieutenant Col. KING: No. I don't believe so. How can it make it any better than we've already put the money in every year for the last 20 years?Because people forget that we've had a military advisory group in El Salvador for well over 20 years, and these problems that we're facing today in leadership and command were there when I was going down there in 1966.

WOODRUFF: What about the situation on the ground right now? I mean, given the destruction of the bridge and the takeover, even though it was only for 12 hours, of that military installation?Where does that leave the government forces?

Lieutenant Col. KING: It leaves them in a very serious position morale-wise and position-wise because they don't really have a strategy on how to win the war. They've never had one. They just tactically fight.

WOODRUFF: Well, specifically the loss of that bridge, I mean, how much o. --

Lieutenant Col. KING: It means the army's going to have serious problems resupplying in the eastern part of the country. They've just moved Colonel Montoroso over to San Miguel. He's the best commander they have. They've given him 6,000 troops and he hoped to be able to corner Villalobos up in Morazon. What's Villalobos done? He's moved over to Chalatenango and caught him in the rear and overrun one of their major bases while their people were out on holiday leave.

WOODRUFF: Well, are the guerrillas in a position to take advantage of this? I mean, we keep reading that, you know, they move into an area and then of course they back out again.

Lieutenant Col. KING: Yeah, well they can take advantage of it on a short-term basis.They can't stand and fight on a long-term because the airpower and the artillery will absolutely murder them. They know that. But they're able to overrun particular areas with the mortars they captured from the Salvadoran army now and the 90mm cannons they captured. They can overrun them for short periods and then withdraw, which is what they're doing. Villalobos is a very smart commander.

WOODRUFF: What do you think the United States should do?

Lieutenant Col. KING: Oh, I think we should begin to look for negotiations, support the Contadora process as strongly as we can, and quit being so suspicious of the Mexicans and let them work on the process they've been trying to work on for the past year. Because if we don't, I think we're going to find ourselves with a very serious decision sometime in March on what do we do to keep this army from collapsing out from under us? It's in a very serious stage.

WOODRUFF: All right, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Now we have another experienced soldier who sees the military situation in El Salvador differently. Andy Messing was an Army platoon leader in Vietnam. He completed Green Beret training and is a guerrilla warfare officer in the Army Reserves, where he holds the rank of major. Mr. Messing is executive director of the Conservative Caucus, and has traveled to Central America 11 times in the last 18 months. Colonel King says -- Mr. King says, Mr. Messing, that the recent guerrilla successes show that, in effect, the U.S. is wasting its money in El Salvador. What do you say to that?

ANDY MESSING: Well, I agree with some of his analysis but not all of it. I don't think we're wasting our money to defend the people against an outside incursion, by any stretch of the imagination. But we are going to have to do some things with increased vigor and with a lot of thought in what we're doing. For instance, there are three things that I think we should be concentrating on now, not just the military situation. First of all, it's the social-political situation where we have to restabilize their justice system.For instance, the three years it's taken to bring the nuns' trial to case is unpardonable. We have to wind up assisting them in winding up getting their justice system put back together so it won't be the Wild West. Magsaysay knew that in the late '40s and early '50s in the Philippines, and as a result he was able to quell the insurgency there. So you have to take away the incentive for the guerrilla to operate, and that is one of the ways you do it. You take away his ability to prey upon the people in terms of getting them to come over to his side because there's social injustice occurring. A lot of ways we can do that.

MacNEIL: Yeah --

Mr. MESSING: We can send in justice teams. We can be do like we did in the Dominican Republic in 1965, where we sent in 50 FBI agents to clean out the Mafia-communist infrastructure.Things like this.

MacNEIL: I get the drift of what you're saying, but I'm wondering, given the timetable that Mr. King has just outlined, that will the military situation hold that long? He suggested that by March the Salvadoran army may be collapsing.

Mr. MESSING: Well, I won't disagree with him, but I would like to clarify something. We could have the possibility of the central highlands situation of 1975 in Vietnam where there was a quick erosion of morale, and for many of the reasons that Col. King just pointed out. However, we have to look at this thing not only as a short-term thing, how we can start to assist the Salvadoran military in the short term, but we also have to think about these things like the one thing I just mentioned. We also haveto ensure -- the second point I wanted to make is in the economic realm, we have to ensure that we wind up getting this economic aid that's being sent down there filtered down into the grass roots population of El Salvador, because right now the aid mission down there is overtaxed, and they're burdened by excessive bureaucratic rules that are not permitting the distribution of that 72% of President Reagan's aid that's going down there out of the total aid package to El Salvador. And of course the third thing we have to do is have continued and constant military aid to El Salvador. If we don't, then we're definitely going to assist and country in losing the war against communism.

MacNEIL: And that means --

Mr. MESSING: And it's Congress's fault and it's not consistent.

MacNEIL: And that means increased aid, in your view, does it?

Mr. MESSING: I would say increased aid, but not massive increased aid. And certainly no more advisers than we have now.

MacNEIL: Thank you. Judy?

WOODRUFF: Mr. King, what about that? Mr. Messing disagrees with you. He says that what we need is military aid and we need to keep it flowing.

Lieutenant Col. KING: Well, we've been saying that and doing that for three years -- actually, 20, but three very concise years -- and nothing's been getting any better. I was told in June last year, when I was up in Morazon, that the army was doing much better. It didn't look like they were doing any better. When I'm there in December it looks like the same army. There's only two batallions that are really fighting [unintelligible]. And so, where is the money? The money keeps going in, but they don't take our advice. They take our money and our equipment, but they ignore the advisers. Now, why should our senior commander in Salvador say that they're doing the wrong things that we give them $100 million for doing that?

WOODRUFF: Mr. Messing, what about that?

Mr. MESSING: Well, it's a slow process. We've persuaded --

WOODRUFF: But the army, I mean, to get back to --

Mr. MESSING: Well, to get to his point, I was just up there a couple of weeks ago in the northernmost point of Morazon Province, right on the Rio Torola, and I talked to the province commander up there, Colonel Cruz, and I also went down to San Miguel and saw the situation firsthand. And what I'm saying that the Salvadoran military is slow to wind up making these adjustments. They're -- they were just starting, as they demonstrated in September, to go to small-unit tactics and start to take our advice. You know, they're a sovereign country; they have their operating principles; and they're slowly but surely taking our advice on a lot of things.

WOODRUFF: So you're not discouraged by the events of the weekend?

Mr. MESSING: Well, let's put it this way. I'm concerned, gravely concerned, because this demonstrates that the guerrillas have the ability to go into phase III guerrilla warfare, which is -- phase I being the incipient stage, phase II, company-sized actions and phase III being batallion-sized actions. This is obviously an escalation into batallion-sized operations, and the administration better be concerned.

WOODRUFF: Mr. King?

Lieutenant Col. KING: Colonel Waghelstein said over two years ago -- he was a Mill Group commander -- that they were patrolling heavy, and they promised -- and he said this summer that they were patrolling night and day. You won't find any night patrols going out in the Salvadoran army. They're not doing it. They're still doing the same thing they were doing a year ago.

Mr. MESSING: Well --

Lieutenant Col. KING: They're going 9 to 5; they're taking leaves on weekinds; they're not patrolling at night. They're over the night to the guerrillas. You don't win a guerrilla war turning over the darkness to the guerrillas --

WOODRUFF: Do you deny that, Mr. Messing?

Mr. MESSING: Well, I'd like to disagree with the Colonel because when I was in Osicala just a couple of weeks ago I witnessed patrols going out into the night at the forwardmost point of the area in Morazon Province, so I know they're doing night patrols. I know --

Lieutenant Col. KING: But in San Vicente they weren't sending them out except about 25 to 100 yards in front of the batallion position and calling those night patrols.Those are not night patrols. Those are listening posts. He knows that as well as I do.

Mr. MESSING: Well, the patrols that I saw going out for night combat weren't going out 100 meters from the position. They were going out several kilometers from the position right on the Rio Torola and they were making contact.

WOODRUFF: But --

Mr. MESSING: So the point I'm trying to make is that while Col. King has some valid points, this is going to be an on-going process. You know, guerrilla war is --

WOODRUFF: But do we have the time --

Mr. MESSING: It's not a Grenada-type --

Lieutenant Col. KING: It's not going to be on-going if the army gets defeated.

Mr. MESSING: -- situation. It's not a --

Lieutenant Col. KING: That's the problem. We can't keep puring money into something that's losing.

Mr. MESSING: It's not a Grenada-type situation where we can go in. This is a long-term thing. We wind up having to do -- we have to have a long-term strategy and be prepared to take short-term actions.And that's what we're talking about.

WOODRUFF: You're saying we have the luxury of time, and Mr. King, you're saying we don't.

Lieutenant Col. KING: I'm saying we've had 25 years down there advising them, and they're losing and they continue to lose.

Mr. MESSING: Actually we've been advising them since 1940, but that's another matter.

Lieutenant Col. KING: Well, that's longer than 25 years.

Mr. MESSING: Well, it's not 20 years, Colonel. But the point I'm trying to make --

Lieutenant Col. KING: Forty-five.

Mr. MESSING: -- is, like Colonel Waghelstein, who I knew and is a friend of mine, and who's a brilliant strategist, had just pointed out --

Lieutenant Col. KING: I knew him as a first lieutenant.

Mr. MESSING: -- who just pointed out in a paper that he did in conjunction with another gentleman with Heritage Foundation, they pointed out that you're going to have to increase aid and that you're going to have to do these things that I've suggested in terms of getting the units to go into small-unit actions and stuff like this. But he also talked about the economic realm and the social justice portion, which I just discussed.

WOODRUFF: Will that make a difference in your mind, Mr. Kng?

Lieutenant Col. KING: No, I don't believe it'll make any difference in the attitude of the army or the morale of the army. More money is not going to make the Salvadoran army fight better. They have plenty of ammunition --

Mr. MESSING: No, that's not what --

WOODRUFF: What about improvement in the judicial system to make it --

Lieutenant Col. KING: If we had the time for that.We've had five years to work on that, three very extensively, and nothing's been really accomplished. If there was time to do that that might be an assisting factor. But it's not going to cause the individual soldier in the Salvadoran army to fight any harder or any better --

Mr. MESSING: I disagree.

Lieutenant Col. KING: It's not going to make the leadership any better. In time, it might make the government work better. I don't question that at all. But it isn't going to make the army fight better. Look at the individual soldier right now. It won't give him the will to fight.

WOODRUFF: I don't think we're going to see any agreement between you two gentlemen any time soon. Thank you both, Mr. Messing and Mr. King, for being with us. Robin?

MacNEIL: In some other foreign stories today. In Tunisia, armored units of the army broke up rioting crowds in a suburb of Tunis, the seventh day of protests over the price of bread. One witness said he saw at least a dozen bodies, including those of two policemen, lying in the street, Riots broke out in Tunisia a week ago when the government doubled the price of bread to 18" a loaf. Yesterday the protests reached the capital at Tunis. Here is a report from Adrian Brown of Visnews.

ADRIAN BROWN, Visnews [voice-over]: Scores of cars and buses were overturned and set on fire. A number of buildings, especially supermarkets, were also badly damaged as the protestors rampaged through the streets chanting antigovernment slogans. Riot police used batterns and tear gas to disperse the crowds. Under the state of emergency, a dusk-to-dawn curfew was imposed and security forces were told they could shoot anyone who disobeyed orders.

MacNEIL: In Warsaw the polish government said today that 1,020 members of the underground opposition gave themselves up under a political amnesty offered last year, leaving less than 100 still active.A government spokesman claimed the surrenders had seriously weakened the underground and left its leaders like generals without an army. Tomorrow an effort will be made to obtain the release of 11 political prisoners. Cardinal Josef Glemp, the head of the Roman Catholic Church in Poland, will take up the question at a meeting with Prime Minister Jaruzelski.

And we will be back in a moment.

[Video postcard -- New York, New York] Interferon

MacNEIL [voice-over]: Our final major story tonight concerns medicine. Tomorrow's New England Journal of Medicine reports that the drug interferon has had a dramatic success in treating a rate from of cancer called hairy cell leukemia. In a study of seven patients, all seven experienced complete or partial recovery, a success rate of 100%. While this may ultimately benefit only a few thousand victims a year, it's just one of a series of small but significant successes that interferon has scored in the laboratory in recent years. Even so, the drug has never quite lived up to the early expectations that it might be the magic bullet against all types of cancer.Interferon, a chemical produced naturally by the body to help fight disease, was first discovered in London in 1957. By the early 1960s, after initial tests, it was already raising hopes that it might turn out to be a wonder drug against all sorts of infections. But it wasn't until the 1970s that it really started to cause excitement. Research started to show that it might be effective against everything from cancer to the common cold, but at the time interferon was expensive and hard to come by because it was produced by the body only in minute quantities. That all changed in 1980 when scientists succeeded in synthesizing interferon with genetic engineering. That set off an investment boom is biotechnology companies rushed in to produce interferon to meet the expected demand. But then the bubble burst. Interferon failed to work in experiments on many other types of cancer, and some began to wonder whether it would ever be a major player in the war against cancer.

[on camera] One man who never gave up hope on interferon is Dr. Jordan Gutterman. He is a professor of medicine at the University of Texas Cancer Center, and one of the authors of the interferon study released tonight. He joins us tonight from public station KUHT in Houston.

Dr. Gutterman, how significant is this result with interferon, the one reported in the New England Journal tomorrow?

JORDAN GUTTERMAN: Well, the result that we reported is another illustration of the efficacy of interferon against different cancers. The significance in this particular tumor, albeit rare, is that every patient responded to the treatment. This leukemia may be due to a cancer virus, and I think that success rate we note in this particular tumor is of unusual importance.

MacNEIL: Has it only been tried on these seven patients?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Actually, our series has been extended now to nearly 20 patients and the results in the additional 13 or so are continuing to hold up.

MacNEIL: Now, that about in other types of cancer? What success has interferon had there?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Well, this is very complex. First of all, most of the work has been done with the type of interferon called leukocyte or alpha that comes from the white blood cell. Now, we have to break that down into two types. First of all, much of the work continues, at least at our own institute, with the naturally derived interferon from the white blood cell. Using that material, we and others have shown efficacy; that is, the ability to cause regression of tumor in about 10 different forms of cancer. Now, we've not tested it on a 1 the major forms of cancer because there is at least 20 major forms of cancer. Now, that original work with the natural interferon has been confirmed in general with the synthetic process; that is, using a pure form of leukocyte interferon. But it's important to understand that the recombinant DNA technology, although it has opened up a very deep understanding of the interferon system, and for cancer in general, that there are at least 16 subtypes of the leukocyte interferon, and when one uses a pure material, a recombinant DNA-derived material, one is only using one of the 16 subtypes.

MacNEIL: Am I understanding you correctly that when you say the pure form, you mean the type made by a doby, not made by biotechnology?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: No, the pure form is the form made by biotechnology.

MacNEIL: I see.

Dr. GUTTERMAN: The impure form is made by the body, which comprises about 16 types of the leukocyte.

MacNEIL: Well, is it the complexity and the many types of interferon which explains why it has not had the enormous success that was predicted for it a few years ago?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Well, I'm not sure that the enormous success was actually predicted. That could have been a misperception by many people --

MacNEIL: Including, presumably, the media?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Well, I think so. I think that's basically because the media and the public do not have a very deep understanding how basic and clinical research is carried out. I think the over-expectation was erroneous because it takes so long to really develop a solid piece of evidence that any particular substance works in cancer. Now, the problem with the leukocyte interferon has been simply that the pure form, again, is only one part of a very complex system, and there are three major forms of interferon. In addition to leukocyte or alpha, there is a very potent form that we've just begun to study now called immune or gama, and the third form called bata or fiberglass. So there are many forms of cancer, and there are many forms of interferon that need to be tested.

MacNEIL: Well, taking all those complexities and boiling them down to terms we as laymen can understand, what are your hopes now for interferon against cancer several years into the mission?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Well, only about 40% of patients with cancer are cured today, perhaps a little bit higher, with the standard forms of therapy -- chemotherapy, radiotherapy and surgery. That leaves about 1,000 people or more who die every day in this county due to malignancy. What interferon has opened up is the realistic possibility now of treating various forms of cancer with natural biological substances. That is, materials that we produce in our own body that control the growth of cancer, that control viruses and that can activate the immune system. We have tremendous optimism that through the use of the various interferons as well as other biological substances in combination that we can make a major dent in the death rate of many forms of cancer, but this work takes a lot of time. We cannot even talk about it, realistically, a cure in any form of cancer until at least five years have passed from the cessation of treatment. So you can see that the time element here is very important, and these types of advances do not occur overnight in clinical research.

MacNEIL: Dr. Gutterman, thank you. We'll come back. As we mentioned, the initial excitement about interferon and subsequent disappointement set off a kind of boom-and-bust cycle in the fledgling biotechonology industry.Luther Smithson has been following the ups and downs in the business side of interferon. He is a biotechology consultant for SRI International, a non-profit research firm in Menlo Park, California. He joins us tonight from public station KQED in San Francisco.

Mr. Smithson, how big a disappointment has the interferon performance been from a business standpoint?

LUTHER SMITHSON: Well, from a business standpoint I think it's been fairly substantial. I think that what we have found is that the companies expected to make a great deal of money out of interferon and as it turns out it's going to be a long time before any of them get a return on investment, if any of them get a return on their investments.

MacNEIL: What kind of financial impact has it had on the drug industry?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, I think on the drug industry it has caused something of the order of half to three-quarters of a billion dollars going into research for interferon research in the sense of cancer.

MacNEIL: How many companies got into it?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, in 1981 there was approximately 35 companies. Today worldwide there are over 70 companies that are in some from of interferon research.

MacNEIL: Why did they all rush in? Why did so many rush in?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, it was a combination of things. It was a new technology. It was the opportunity to cure a very menacing disease. It was the opportunity of gaining instant credibility and a lot of public response.

MacNEIL: Have those companies been abandoning the manufacture of interferon?

Mr. SMITHSON: No, I don't think so. I think they're still working on interferon. I think they're looking at it more as an opportunity to learn the new technology -- biotechnology, genetic engineering.

MacNEIL: And just accept whatever losses there may be?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, they are going to try to recoup as many losses as they can with using interferon as a viral drug. But -- as an anti-viral.And not necessarily as an anti-cancer.

MacNEIL: Anti- what kind of viruses?

Mr. SMITHSON: Oh, hepatitis, herpes, other viruses such as that.

MacNEIL: What are the biotechnology firms doing beyond interferon or in addition to interferon?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, we're beginning to come into an era of the next generation of immunotropics, the immunological stimulators that Dr. Gutterman alluded to. Such things as Interleukin II, Interleukin III, right at the present time, and such things as microphage activating factor, and even another substance, the gama interferon, is really an immunotropic substance.

MacNEIL: So, in other words, these companies that invested very heavily in simple interferon are continuing to make that but are using the biotechonology knowledge to experiment and make a lot of other things?

Mr. SMITHSON: Yes. I think it's quite clear that they're going to use the same technology to make blood fractions of one type or another, a whole variety of proteins that have a good therapeutic use.

MacNEIL: Now, what are you advising your clients about this whole area?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, one of the major things I'm advising my clients is to show a little bit of caution, be patient, spend perhaps more money on more basic things, such as the more fundamental natures of disease, of cancer, the more -- how the immune system reacts to certain stimulants and certain antagonists.

MacNEIL: Do the businessmen who put money into this feel that the scientists misled them on interferon?

Mr. SMITHSON: No, I don't believe so. I think that it was a combination of things. I think the scientists were anxious to get sufficient funds and sufficient amounts of interferon to do some very definitive type clinical investigations, and I think that the business community went along with it as an opportunity to enter the next generation of pharmaceuticals.

MacNEIL: Dr. Gutterman, back in Houston, is there lots of interferon for you to work with as a result of all these companies getting into it? Is the supply adequate to the needs?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Well, again, that's a complex question. There is sufficient amount of the pure leukocyte interferon and now, we hope within a few months, sufficient amounts of the pure recombinant gama. We, however, have opened up the area of continuing to work with the natural leukocyte interferon, and there the funds, I think, are very scarce.

MacNEIL: Is that because of this disappointment we spoke of and the kind of boom-and-bust thing?

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Well, the boom and bust is really a clear misconception. I totally disagree with this. I think that the expectation in the business community may have been wrong. Again I repeat that the leukocyte interferon alone works in at least a dozen tumors, and I think this is very exciting, in addition to the work that's going on in viruses. But for example, regarding the question about amount, most of our work has continued to be funded by the Interferon Foundation based in Houston, which raises funds through the corporate sector, mainly the oil industry. So in addition to the pharmaceutical support, we have continued to have much of our support through the private sector. But I must disagree about the bust syndrome because I think that the results are actually better than most scientists would have predicted three or four years ago. I think this is an erroneous conceptthat has been perpetuated by the press, which I just disagree with.

MacNEIL: What do you say to that, Mr. Smithson?

Mr. SMITHSON: Well, I don't know if it was a bust situation as such. I certainly believe that many people became disappointed, and at one period in 1982 investments into firms producing or doing research in interferon certainly slowed. I think it's taken off again in 1983, and I think with the gama interferons and the hope of the other lympho kinds, I think it's going at a pretty good clip at the present time.

Dr. GUTTERMAN: Robin, I must say something that's terribly important. Paralleling the clinical work has been an explosion of knowledge in our understanding of what cancer is all about through the new concept of oncogenes as well as the fact that we now know that viruses can cause certain forms of leukemia. As we have a deeper understanding of the whole malignant process, our ability to regulate abnormal growth -- what we call cancer -- through the interferons and natural substances will improve tremendously. For example, most of the studies that have been carried out have been done in patients with very advanced cancer. We need now to move toward an earlier stage of malignancy where we have much better chance to achieve good results. So I think, again, the perception that has been stated again and again is definitely wrong, at least from the eyes of those who are directly involved with the clinical research of the interferons.

MacNEIL: How do you think the business community on your end of it, Mr. Smithson, is going to view these results and the optimism we've just heard from Dr. Gutterman?

Mr. SMITHSON: Oh, I think they'll definitely be encouraged. I think they'll be encouraged to continue their support of the development of interferon. I think they're going to be encouraged to continue their support of furthering more and advanced clinical investigations of it. I fully agree with Dr. Gutterman that probably the most single important fact of the amount of money that's been spent for interferon has been the secondary knowledge that has been gained about the diseases of cancer.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. I'm afraid we have to leave it there, Mr. Smithson. Thank you for joining us in San Francisco; Dr. Gutterman, in Houston.

Judy?

WOODRUFF: Once again a final look at today's top stories.

Lieutenant Robert Goodman and Democratic presidential candidate Jesse Jackson arrived back in the United States. At a White House ceremony President Reagan praised Jackson's efforts to free the captured U.S. airman from Syrian costody.

And, back in the Middle East, Israeli planes blasted suspected terrorist positions in Lebanon. Beirut Radio says more than 100 died in the attack.

The State Department had approving words today for the crackdown on right-wing death squads in El Salvador. It is reported that the administration wants to send El Salvador's government additional military aid.

The number-two man at the Pentagon, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Thayer, has resigned. He faces an SEC investigation for stock transactions before he joined the Reagan administration.

And, as we just reported, there may be new life in the much-heralded miracle drug interferon.

Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: Good night, Judy. That's our NewsHour tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.