The MacNeil/Lehrer Report

james funding for this program has been provided by the station and other public television stations and by grants from exxon corporation the corporation for public broadcasting and at and t and the bell system company as racial tensions rise in south africa a leading black african opponent of the white government discusses changes in us policy right right we can gaming the highest american official to visit south africa in three years deputy secretary of state william clark today concluded talks with south african

leaders and flew to the disputed territory of namibia namibia is the former trust territories rich and resources which south africa still rule after years of international efforts to secure our independence present meetings of the highest level us contacts with south africa's white rumors since then secretary of state cyrus vance tried unsuccessfully to reach a namibian independent seven and in nineteen seventy eight all recent us government's of a close south african racial policies of the reagan administration has taken a new tack of trying to coax rather than for south africa mr reagan has also reported to be tying a namibian settlement for the removal of cuban troops from neighboring angola there was a bomb explosion on the main railroad line outside the city of durban last night the latest violence in a series of incidents as racial unrest has risen in recent weeks tonight a leading south african black politician and two us members of congress discussed the implications of the new us policy robin twenty years ago all but six of the fifty two

nations on the continent of africa had minority white garments meaning wax although in majority had little or no say in government now that has changed only two white government or nine the restroom why those two are namibia and the republic of south africa south africa has a population of five million whites and twenty two point five million lives and so called color under south african law the wives and you have the right to vote the right to hold public office and they're excluded from management level jobs in the private sector it's all part of south africa's racist been called apartheid and object of protest for years from blacks within the country and from others in the international community within south africa the largest and oldest black opposition group is the african national congress in serious claim credit for a number of terrorist attacks in south africa the group's next president as oliver tambo mr gamble is whether auburn new york oliver tambo who is sixty four was a schoolteacher in a wire in south africa until he

was banned from public meetings and later charged with treason for political activities he escaped in nineteen sixty eight and has lived since then in other african countries leading a struggle against the south african government has been in the united states to attend a conference in south africa mr tambo in a speech last sunday in washington you've said that united states policy was reversing a decade of struggle and was like trying to make the mississippi flow backwards you tell us what you know about that but one must accept that the present a geo political position in southern africa is that is out of er all proceeds which started earlier than ten years ago they are only these two countries sit side of a bed and namibia which remain to be rated this is that is out of the process and one must accept that the united states policy doesn't accept these geo political position they don't accept bed at the independence of hung on that they need they don't really accept the independence of

beira mozambique the one to change the systems and to reverse it bair didn't accept that this process is going to grow food and get into self and at odds makers out of an incentive would be integrated lunch you mean by liberated it will help but none of that majority vote but it over by the majority of the people saw the public and why we reemphasize do you think the united states' policy is trying to reverse that this has staying whitely a permanent white movie or what i think the united states policy their questions given the right of independence of african countries in south west are particularly by that attitude to us or not that is an independent state you also said in that speech something else news the very stark phrases said that unless something is done the policy spells out world war three seventy and if the south

african policies persist but it's out of a very nice assisted in cottage to defend and preserve the status quo the owners of quote an aspiration of armed conflict in deeds the development of a war situation there's no other possibility and the dangers of the reagan administration believes that they're gaining strength to this region and therefore enabling it to resist the treasures from liberation treasures for and the majority of war in the sense that the only people of south of oregon the government of the country to resist that is to prescribe the conditions for an ever escalating day and conflict or jews into an instant sugar what the united states and festivals and abundant this present policy of air

embracing the side of connection as an ally of the people of the united states that they really thing that is a remarkable shift in policy we we we haven't no means as soon set potted was born in south africa isn't going to be that dangerous everything that should be there they'll use of mr jim parsons john suspect weekend that the united states should take its position we think of the wise to defy site for the united states to take this position on the side of the people want to see but just change a radical change of the change is not that radical eric and it develops well conditions in which any interest in labs has been talking about would be based incentives to have you speaking of were conditions have your ears or movement decided that violence is now the only way to bring about the kind of changes necessary in south

africa it is in just noted that we will not alone in infected and taking this decision said this has been the experience of people people is owned by regimes of the son of anti air interviews quantities in the rhodesian weidman agreeing these odd that's of the same fair balance soft and have developed of the same positions and irvine says had to do his article in order to get the liberation of the media and there is no crime scene that their way by which we put on point out on thursday to be tough it's going to be what kind of violence are you know mounted the african national congress were so sure well we know arun i'm praying every form of violence and that we can marshal day it's going to be an onslaught and has to be really selective and

boston to god's law target's say that demonstrative a way off of a kind of their new album live past that stage and david we are now going to have to take with everything that we have and this is not just the african national congress this is the mood of the prestigious those listening targets in south africa does this mean political assassinations business knew what doesn't when you don't exactly get your independence by way of political assassinations and what we don't want is an appointment no it means that an attack on the armed forces of the regime there and rahm must define forces are deliberately because very clear what is was a sotto two isn't the sort of been set up where the parties aren't and everybody's organize into the army commanders and whatever that means an attack on the structures set of the years really made news about tech air if

sanctions dont work we've got to impose sanctions from within and therefore we must take an area the economy of the country in various ways the us do this you have admitted in the past and justify getting on support from the soviet union because you say with the soviet union long will will help you with arms do you expect the united states government to sympathize with your uncle sorcery or support is but it loses that and added on and what made it necessary for us to go to the feeling made for thompson of the first instances because i'll be zero readings patients nonviolent struggle is a completely ineffective and do their producing kind of ids that therefore we have to find weapons and went everywhere and those were willing to give us weapons that we accept it has the same effect now that fifty five boys were going to get you noticed as weapons to fight our world

but not to the teacher about with the weapons come from and so just so happens that said the socialist countries appeared to be pets and if they hadn't voted no independent mozambique and on what i do not thereby expect to be seen by the reagan administration with its emphasis on international terrorism and the alleged ties to do to moscow to be seen as part of the soviet influence the soviet cuban influence in africa and therefore that little sympathy from they should sympathize with our courts that is the first thing if they sympathize work was in the first instance we wouldn't have we would've gone to the mattresses for the weapons which we needed instead of was not as they say air support appoint the conference excited in various ways really against this regime as we follow the weapons that were used pusher love course toot toot toot toot toot toot to go to see them why should be who's the sympathy of the united states and was someone else is willing to help us to achieve what what is

justified what the horse's is justified but surely on to supporters who mentors gives us weapons it or to support us by giving us one as i said in the introduction the reagan administration is reported to be about to link attempt to link agreement on a settlement in namibia with some condition for getting cuban troops out of angola and shared carnival is going to present regime and those who oppose it one of your comment on the promise of us for we just can't understand what the withdrawal of cuban troops from what lies beneath the district with namibia there the cubans were in one of the first was that request of the government plans to meet an existing meet at the time and no one would say they did not need that kind of support because they had roller resistance against the unity didn't they were being invaded by southwest in south africa it's a in a manner that was unprecedented in that part of the words invaded

this young african independence day to give no money to defend itself but most natural that they should have somebody has to and they tried various countries unsuccessfully cubans were reading and we are thinking of what a great thing to the state now he's editor for the need for the cubans to the deficit for this was decided by the name one instance there's no one should tell him they don't want to add buttons secondly to our own money she saw the biggest us to raping them when they're supporting this and this and hopes and i mean that they are trying to get government overflowing with the assistance of these groups and by its own brains sean young when i mean sleep the the the assistance of its friends at this time when the danger is you move i can see that didn't want to compete in things added troops in and look at you know country just to have stripped from another for the sake of having been there and i don't think that any exception

can ask you finally this chester crocker the newly confirmed solicitor undersecretary of state for african affairs as reporters said recently south africa is making quote a serious an honest effort to move away from a project is that true in your view i mean if removing some neighbors from some bases season honest early web content on one source i'm writing down whites only signs if that a cbs and honest i tend to wear a really don't think it's an attempt in the first instance and especially cannot be honest or dishonest that something that should've been done it was twenty years ago we're not talking about letting mali country besides we are talking about how big catch anticipation by or suffered some of khan's independent of the country's total elimination not possible to show that there's some pros sense of instances

off local for potted but the fundamentals of the fundamentals of apartheid the lead understand sixteen and the animations were buying you the whites have a corrosive hour and that asset and i'm so sick they're in a position in which they were no i'm just whatever and who are us when these are the fundamentals that doing nothing about this is what we're talking about and the baby the other things that they may be honest about i've become human events they must be an innovative economy the economic stories about to be independent and angry at a country in southern africa it is independent and justin talking about that they're moving i've acted science as cbs attempt they didn't do that a number that the point of the united nations and i considered for seventy four the city has already said that they wear it for the first time that the racial discrimination was as bad and that they are beginning to move away from their

apartments and racial discrimination and to seven years ago you can imagine how long it's going to take a rate they're due to really move only that it's no longer a question of movie away gradually walking away they change doesn't have to be ready two members of congress react now to mr campbell's positions and perspectives first senator richard lugar republican indiana i'm member of the senate foreign relations committee and a supporter of the new administration banking on southern africa you're mr campbell said senators said that the reagan administration is gaining strength to the regime in south africa on this enabling them to better as a this change in its racial paulson's i think that's fundamentally un true facts are that the reagan administration has decided that it would be very useful to have a solution in libya as opposed to a simply pie and sentiments that carter policy surname had the heart in the right place and said things

that ice presumably pleasing mr campbell others for a long time and progress has not occurred in terms of thought that reform apartheid the changes have been minimal essentially the reagan administration policy is to take some arrests and constructive engagement means that that that investment in what is a man is that you begin to a mix it up you actually go as the undersecretary carr has gone and crocker at south africa now the criticism of this on the part of black africans is that you should not be visiting with south africans that you are somehow recognizing been encouraging in fact as in a pragmatic way of uganda black africa at this point that they would have said what have you got from south africa and a sense of anonymity and solution there really has to be on a pre condition and i were a long way i think from that solution as a matter fact i would be very surprising what's coming we're envisioning a try

the reagan administration should apply pressure on south africa the changes racial policies of course and it should be done differently than how do you think it should because it should be done in the end every manner that we have contact but we really have to have contact we had to have leverage i felt the rockefeller report that was recently have been put out by a number of business and government labor leader has come was constructed in indicating that we're going to have to be engaged in south africa helping the people where like the same time engaged and not simply offering rhetoric and anti semite do you see based on what you just heard mr tambo surveyed use atm and his movement as a main part of soviet backed terrorism oh mr campbell would be considered by the south african government as the terrorists i think it's interesting that our government does not seem that way is very on this program he will be entertained by the senate foreign relations committee on monday at a caucus this is

i suppose once again constructive engagement on mr campbell if one listens to him carefully is talking about violent solutions which i don't think this country routes court that regardless of where we are in the political spectrum we we really do believe there are united states' interest in africa as a whole in addition african interests that they intersect in many lights and they are very subtle way out we are attempting to make certain that we have a camera fostering peace not confrontation and then warfare in violence as the temple was suggesting no point in med on them maybe an and always said there's no connection between them and the cuban troops in and go and a settlement in the maybe do you agree with him there are all kinds of connections i would agree with him that is not a quid pro quo situation at all as a matter of fact we have a number of balls in the air that to have to come in the conjunction but that is going to be important right now

election was held the president longer would not wear and this is a liberated countries and then they would wear in my judgment man as three election will not be held out the facts of life are cuban daughter and is the leader of the the opposite espn's hardly occupation army or reduce our government moving and as a matter fact you've got the people are and the cuban don't belong there they all get out but how that knows together will take a very great deal of pragmatic diplomacy or just on the threshold of a number of moves of that sort but i think it's a very important set of policies and it's a change as opposed to some place say our heart is in the right place the inevitable history is going to occur there for the flow of that are we really know that there are live people there that we believe need our assistance and are requesting are systems like the bronx so now a member of congress or supports american policy towards south africa much as it was under president carter is democrat howard wolpe of michigan chairman of the house foreign affairs subcommittee on africa congressman what you think of the new

african policy of the reagan administration well i don't really quarrelling with the direction that has been announced in terms of the general policy of movement toward getting south african cooperation settling the conflict in libya and i do have some question about specific gestures that are an illustration has taken because i think they are leading to widespread perception throughout the continent of a shift toward south africa and toward an accommodation with the apartheid regime do share that perception i and unclear at this point in my own mind i think there are some members of the administration who do not want to see a shift to a place and who knew what is being described as a constructive engagement as beautiful sort of tactics i'm not convinced that the soul of the ministrations it is committed to the proposition that enormous pressure will in fact be necessary to secure a change of direction of the presence of african regime and that's really the ultimate let me play devil's advocate here for moment ask you why is it not in us interest to have closer relations with

such a powerful countries south africa are important source of raw materials of strategic minerals potential him military bases in the united states why wouldn't be a good thing to get the irony is that our present identification with the present regime is probably has greater violence to american strategic and economic interests than anything else threw out not only southern africa but the entire continent it is true that we do have vital strategic minerals that we draw from south africa and of those minerals are important today they will be even more important twenty years from now so we need to be very attentive to the inevitability of the process of change that is taking place in south africa and not leave the situation with the evolving new regime viewing america as its adversaries moreover it is the present intransigence of the regime that invites the kind of violence that is taking place that represents the greatest single threat to the interruption of those supplies

from south africa working on it sorry for the last clinic also that we just to teach not only from south africa but throughout the cotton up forty percent of the oil that we import comes from the rest of africa we find in addition to zambia and its neighboring zambia provides a large part of the cobbled resources this country requires so that we have a vital strategic interests throughout the continent and to the extent that we're perceived as identifying that set ourselves with a regime that is viewed with a quarter of the continent were doing violence in those strategic and economic interests as well should the united states support the efforts in mr cameron's friends i think there's a sense certainly support because as as he expressed i think it is important to be identified with the forces of change and i think that it is perfectly appropriate in that connection that we use a combination both of carrots and sticks and both private diplomacy

and publicly clear declarations it's not one or the other but i think it's terribly important that we remain consistent with the world whites and blacks were in south africa and the world generally understand what our direction what our commitment in fact is true earlier in simple terms do you believe the reagan administration should support the campbell will do and what they're trying to accomplish now we should not i think it's one thing to appreciate what they are and what they're doing with tammo movement as i understand the internal politics of that is one of the number of movements moving toward deliberations expressed at that a very disjointed opposition back when first abortion of them involving an amazing warfare in that particular the un that i would differ with caution will be an insane that really is not enough to keep saying we're giving consistent signals or we're going to have to be more sophisticated as a matter of fact if you're visiting with south africa at this point given inconsistent

signal that seems to me that we are diminishing our respect rate for the intelligence of black african nations your full well that if there is to be a namibian settlement it'll be to our intervention into our diplomacy and we have to get south africa and that a solution as mr campbell about that do you basically object to united states officials haven't any contact at all with south africa the barrio where is the basis of the content of the base of the festival is that as members of the group of five they have been having quantities on the back anyway and intimate in question but content which proceeds on the basis that they are friends and allies that kind of contact in which have available assisted as friends and allies to defend their positions is that what the court is that what the uranium is why the united states the

richness of friends of all parties internal parties in namibia south africa various sectors we're not in that presently attempting to antagonize any of the parties were attempting to arrive at the solution then great freelancers put on our leadership in that respect me do you think the united states should view south africa as a friend and ally i believe that the identification of some of the present for shameless i call strategic allies a very serious mistake i think that should be our view officials i think are of used to be one of them having a relationship with a country that we have important economic interests in terms of meeting some trade and economic activity but also a country that we regard with some real concern because of its contribution to these instability within that region and therefore to our own strategic interests in the air what about the soldiers' point though that you gotta have contacted out again in their next topic given a bring about any change of the south african regime of that the concert is not with conficker say a sort of the

substance of the dialogue that is taking place for example i think a very serious mistake was made when ministration move to repeal the park and then at this time because of that effort is being viewed by i'm going to buy me caused by the countries throughout the continent just over a minute one of our commitment from that day us aid going to the opposition in and go that's correct two years of america's attempting to subvert of the government in angola we ought to repeal apartment for the party generals over a moment similar problem so imagine here in an email the transcript center of dollars to them and you know verify that new report was produced by

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