The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Cloning

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beaming speaking greek if you read any newspaper or magazine you've probably seen the word cloning in the past few weeks he joined the popular vocabulary with publication of the book claiming that an elderly millionaire had himself cloned he wanted a son didn't see any woman with jeans worthy of hits so he had himself reproduced his own tween created sixty eight years younger than himself or so the story goes there was a media controversy and a lot of wednesday when the whimsical side plenty of speculation about cloning and of robert redford's of farrah fawcett majors to go around on the serious side is the scientific and ethical debate tonight how possible is the planning of humans and of it is out of rehab you're

from and forcefully you don't have to be a scientist to understand the basics of cloning number one basic assembly that there are two kinds of natural cloning an unnatural the natural kind happened all the time particularly in plants and animals in each on two of them turn out exactly alike and occasionally it occurs and gilman they're called twins triplets and soul if the un natural clowning the condom by science that the fuss was all about and mammals that means reproducing an identical my means other than sexual scientists have been cloning france for instance there's such means as nineteen fifty two experiments with mice have also been conducted the new book is the first time anyone has claimed its been done with humans a claim made more unusual by the unnatural plans been sixty eight years apart ok dr robert mcdowell is with us to explain the basic process involves doctor mcconnell is a professor of genetics and cell biology at the university of minnesota and is currently experimenting with fraud cloning in cancer research

dr using from planning let's run through this process as simple and as quickly as we can it begins with a frog and that of course is the center's i right call they call the nucleus they contain the genetic material of the next generation as provided by the mother decides whether or not fraud his left and right hand of blue eyed are or whatever that plus the sperm that the father would give an ordinary conditions are then the next stages this nucleus lived through ultraviolet rays or other means that nucleus is distraught isn't right now we use other means we use a laser beam to remove the nucleus you could use at all a micro naval to count up the maternal chromosomes it doesn't make any difference to so that you remove them in maternal genetic material that egg and managers hr placed by implanting the believers the term but that that notices is replaced with me the nucleus from a self from the for all that you wish to reproduce down a lot of correct you insert you transplant you plays into

that arena pleaded at a nucleus from a nuclear bomb and it's very important to specify what kind of nuclear donor you have if you want to have a cloned fraud from this experiment on the media's mission in common and that is that if we obtain the nucleus from an embryonic donor we can get a fro which is you've shown on the screen just a minute ago but if we go to an adult holiday as the nuclear deal and we're very fortunate to get any development at all sometimes we get a temple that almost unbearably the temple with the aura of course very important to the victim of a comeback of that and just from all the iconic stage and the process and everything goes according to hoyle the way as opposed to these cells then began to divide and that's the first step and then they began to come together in a larger group and a kind of a ball of these cells last call on and watched alone right right ok

i can we go as you said to the temple and then finally to your basic clone green for all right but as you say that frog a year you're right back on a dubious state of the arm of the giant hole in america to the fraught if this nucleus of this new case that comes out is not from an embryo where did i really realize a frog and an operation depends upon the kind of nuclear donor that we have and then no clear donna must be an embryonic fluid on a pipe wrenches then to sixty four dollar question the process we just outlined the changes outlined is that possible to do for humans are i think eventually it may be possible at the present time i do not think there's good biological reason to believe that it has been done or that it's even on to be done in the near future why what's the problem ok i think the major problem is a biological problem and the biological problem is that we

can insert a nucleus from an embryonic daughter into an integrated eight and get a fraud and so we would presume that we can insert an embryonic nucleus from a human embryo donner and get a normal embryo developing but if we go to an adult an honor an alliance that one time act of sixty eight probably was not an embryo max is of course that we are fictional mei mr the citadel measures for the sixty eight year old millionaire in the ryder cup so if humans behave at all like frozen we suspect they probably will then there seems to be no reason for the time to think that we could accomplish such an experiment on human beings what you believe that it could be done sometime in the future why believe it we're learning more and more about some differentiation and as we learn more about phil differentiation we all ought to be able to do such an extent in the future if anybody want to do it that i would like to emphasize very strongly i know of no biological

reason to do what i can think of many good biological reasons and these are not typical reasons is a biological reasons not to do what you think the what would you say some time in the future all why every effort considering the state of the science of the art right now it would be imprudent to guess are you know five years ten years that i have no crystal ball but can i address one biological issue faster which is not ethical was about biology species survive because of genetic heterogeneity our planning there's a white with genetic heterogeneity we don't want to reproduce by limiting look at it in a profit that limits genetic in a committee so far a very good biological reason always shouldn't reproduced by cloning was use cloning for experimental procedures to get new insights into cell differentiation new insight into cancer new insight into a aging perhaps but it is an inappropriate way for a frog to reproduce and it's in an inappropriate way for a person to reproduce

because as i said we need we thrive on we desperately need genetic epigenetic you do not believe in the mac store it i find extraordinarily unlikely let's plunge into the arguments that arise from the scientific achievements of potential achievements in the future first how is the government which funds not scientific research look at planning but joe mccarthy's chief of legislation in the development branch of the national institutes of health in washington mccarthy what problems does the possibility of human cloning raise for you and your colleagues well i think the first problem is the one that said doc and can already alluded to how we are primarily an agency that produces our sponsors research that is a related to the health of the american people and therefore for us to sponsor cloning ah as an end in

itself is hardly dedicated to to the health of the american people that's when i in no way that we presently know of strengthen the species in fact it would or would very likely a weakened species and so as an end product of any kind of a scientific endeavour i think the really and i h would be most reluctant to sponsor it now studies in a cell division and so one or another matter anything that will give us insight into the diagnosis treatment for prevention of disease is something where vitally interested in and to that extent of course we're interested in in a cell reproduction in whatever form that will give us new insights have you had initial public reaction since cloning became much talked about a few weeks ago our been advised to have be aware of those surveyed we've had public reaction in the sense that our telephones have hardly ceased ringing i suppose i've had twenty five or thirty calls

myself i understand that other offices and had more are largely these are coming however from the news media who want us to make a statement as to whether the roar bickle book is credible or whether it is not and i think go visit is in in the view of most of our scientists and you must understand i'm not a scientist learning the view of most of the scientific community there is little credibility expressed i have not heard one scientist who believes that they're the roar of the book is is authentic here on government funds used throughout my age to finance cloning experiments at this moment no we have no word no such research here in operation or even in planning you know one day come to the point where the government might find it again soon new congress or through an i h for some administrative action to ban research center surge as it applied to humans

well olen we're very reluctant indie it in the advance of concrete situation to say we will ban anything i i think we do not think of our agency has one that that censors or tries to put a lid on research we promote research nevertheless we work closely with the congress we were under a number of ethical commissions and committees to review committees and so on that makes art we restrict the research to those kinds of concerns that are considered to be ethical and out and so i think unlikely even in the event that cloning becomes feasible i think it's unlikely that we would support any planning until and unless a major public debate had occurred and authorized go ahead they are calling for us also raises questions among people who were not doctors and scientists are concerned

about the ethics of tampering with human genetics laurence tribe is a professor of constitutional law at the harvard lost oh he's dry were you concerned about coming in this video i'm concerned about clothing because it seems to me that whether it's just around the corner or not it is one of a whole array of new technologies in the biomedical field that could alter the very meaning of humanity of other technologies have been directed outwards with great power to the world this is one of the first that turns inward upon the human condition itself and creates really owe pandora's box of possibilities about what we're to become so i find that a matter of very grave and probably if we humans face is capable of being commander in command of its destiny in so many other ways should it not be capable of engineering its own future physical knowledge of germs i think that represents a dramatic this continuity and i think that even mere scientific utility that would lead one to wonder whether we have the

wisdom to engage in that kind of engineering that i'm not myself opposed to the idea that human beings should seek to remedy their problems through genetic and other kinds of techniques but what concerns me particularly is the impact both on the human individual and on the network of human social relationships of technologies of this kind are we really to bring her simple dreams are we concerned about the monsters we might create i would not look like a monster concert not just that and that makes it look like it's just the individual freak that were worried about what concerns me i think really can be reduced to two things first i'm concerned about the impact on the individual who may be denied a sense of uniqueness who maybe lead to feel manufactured who may be subjected to all kinds of pressures from society and from government to conform to some pre existing mall and i'm concerned second about the impact on society if we were to have a menu of alternative ways by which to propagate the species to begin with this sexual reproduction the random combination of genotypes the ordinary method today

but in addition to that the deliberate replication of a challenge in a tie and then finally the design of a new genotype i think it would not be very long before centralized decision making rather than personal chores that would determine which of those methods you or i could pick what we could get from that menu and it seems to me extraordinarily dangerous in that situation that government may well have the power and the motive to decide which of us should be perpetuated in which us to be phased out this week should genetic experimentation with humans begin you feel i think that banning genetic experimentation across the board would be explain folly of because experimentation of this kind of promises to yield deep insight into the causes of cancer cystic fibrosis multiple sclerosis and it really would be far too broad band all at the same time i think if we wait until we are poised with all of the technologies of genetic manipulation and until it is possible to

deploy them in a rather easy way without a massive concentration of public funds will be to like the momentum that will be generated both psychological and economic make it essentially impossible to turn back so what we have to do and it's by no means easy ways find some immediate posture in which we permit experimentation investigation but keep a close watch for monitoring it on particular lines of experimentation so that they don't go too far before we get to the point of the back yard or garden or garage clear exactly able to do it himself now how do you see what do you see is the dangers of further experiment on this whole area cloning particular human cloning thal let me address myself to the kinds of animals that have been totally african foods of the clones the north american leopard frog is the only certain elements of people on that rabbits are at something i've been trying to drive some experiments was surrounded at oxford saw very elaborate experiments were conducted

on the revenue and thus far there thus far unsuccessful but let me talk about those toads and frogs and salamanders at a minnesota leopard frog goes out in the evening and finds grasshoppers mosquitoes and all other manner of insects eat it doesn't eat rabbits it doesn't need a business doesn't the man i when we clone a fraud and when we do it properly when we take a very early embryonic nucleus and trust that and that embryonic nucleus into previously integrated eight and these are limited experiments that there'd been done in just a few laboratories that they are successful when performed by somebody who has the attic with with field until one in that it's a gift for all of that throat eats mosquitoes these grasshoppers these worms and does not eat rabbits apes or a man so long for all constitutional hazard area i saw it absolutely no has a metal working with drugs

now are the genetics of the mouse are far better known than the genetics of a frog or a man so if somebody wanted to develop a cloning procedure in my case there would be good reason to do because one could marry the existing knowledge of genetics and my wit that interesting for sage which is really not new at all was developed in philadelphia by robert graves and thomas cain in nineteen fifty two with a quarter of a century or so is not really new but in a way that we could expand this procedure to mike it would be worthwhile and i submit if these experiments are successful will produce mice now my feet mouse food and i submit that appointed now slowly now so much as a mass produced by ordinary sexual reproduction to estimate there's no hazard to cloning nights ok now should experimental you said a while ago that you're within five ten years or so that it's possible to humans i think it maybe paints

may be part of the question is this should we go ahead and find out whether or not it's possible to parliament and do the experimentation that it would take to find out somebody asked me recently where i find some sort of a paper seeking the prohibition of such research and i said absolutely not because i said if i sign such a paper it would give credence to the point of view that it is immediately possible and i don't think it's immediately possible now should we seek to command the answer is of course not nike cullen alluded earlier why we should not seek to call them and there is no good biological reason to do that there's no biological reason to do it why don't we are where biologists were seeking answers to good respectable biomedical problems that relate to cancer that relate to and the biology that perhaps someday will relate to aging itself and they use these are important here is the research of these areas of research and my view should under no condition be impeded harlequin has has no merit and therefore we should not

do agree on about the mccarthy that and those and i actually agree that the basic process of planning should encourage weigh whether to my store or an enthralled source i'll manage or whatever is just humans that it all on where you go along well we don't usually ask the question that way what we are concerned about is the development of knowledge base that will enable us to attack the various health problems that present and that are presented to the american people and to the head of the world population not in so far as an investigator can justify his research by saying that a particular procedure is related to or is likely to increase the knowledge base that will help us to overcome or prevent or cure cancer or some of the disease then we're interested now if we're not if it doesn't bear any relationship to go to the cure or prevention of disease then write a very

statutes that organizes we can't we can't go ahead and go i've got to come back to an entry that if you say that within five or so years week it is possible maybe possible to clone a human and obviously we're gonna make it possible by continuing to clone frauds and minds and salamanders and whatever other words that experimentation is going to lead to the capability cloning humans understand it correctly yes but let me say this i might have not been closed in the sense that we're talking about in the sense of taking a cinematic nucleus from human embryo or from adult and inserting and janina created a case you alluded earlier to a definition of cloning of a sexual reproduction and yes you can you can have a sexual reproduction in mice device in the laboratory and some people read for the fiscal and

my next artist for them concerns because the word plot is rich and biological meeting but if we use it and the restrictive said oh insertion of an eclipse from a body work whether the human body of an embryo or a body of an oven adult individual that has not been done in mammals ate and the art while the procedures appear to be on the on the horizon i think i forget that it would be imprudent to put a time like that five ten years but i do think it's possible sometime the future but there are many hurdles to overcome in knots and i've been as i said before and i want to emphasize strongly is no resemblance to tacoma my point is that every step that's taken down the cloning line whether it involves mice or whatever is also step toward the ability to clone him just drive very nature that has a salon for yes it let me say the pollution as the handsome smoking cigarettes of that and we know that these are hazards

cloning life are calling for always produced in the case of drugs for all that press them they will produce might never said before they're not ahead of the we live and as the friday that is that is is fraught with all sorts of hazards like the mythological river to not have a five run in those years it seems to me that that is much too narrow focus the fact that a cloned mouse would just be a mouse and the mouse food for the fact that a particular kind of experiment would generate an added knowledge base represents only part of the truth it's a significant part but only a part we also have to ask whether a particular line of experimentation would make it much more difficult to go back from the clothing line or two turn back from directions of development that would be dehumanizing and brutalizing it seems to me just as we have environmental impact statement before major actions with impact on the environment that we ought to think about the feasibility of acquiring something like a bio ethical impact statement before the end i h can fund experiments of this kind and indeed before

any major development can go on i think the fetish of research generating only knowledge represents a serious form of myopia you mean like analogy with nuclear research the same research produced both bombs and threatened not to think about the possibility of bombs and not think about how to control the possibility in advance it seems to me it represents a form of irresponsibility was interviewed dr mukherjee in age well i was just going to a comment that they are indeed that line of thought i don't know how mature it is at this stage but that line of thought has already begun in nineteen seventy three the end ihs sponsored its first symposium on ethical problems relating to the possible genetic developments in the future and most all of the year discussion in that was that based on research that we could not get that accomplished but at least we considered a potential at some expat in the future

it just this morning i went down to the congress in and sat in on a markup of the bill led sponsored by say kennedy which will create create a new presidential commission that has a number of responsibilities in the field of ethics one of which is to look at the year ethical legal and social implications of research in genetics and not merely the genetics of cloning bought out all types of genetic an intervention which are indeed as as dr travis suggested is as potential for evil as well as foreign just years the last couple minutes we have to see where consensus we have i think you've also individually there should not be any out right then on this kind of by the governor or by administrative action on on the present research and experimentation con is a reasonably disagree reflect everything but mammals as two million phone and i think i might favor an outright ban even the most human rights i get a little more about whether the threshold of technology at that point

would raise too close to human cloning what i just getting there and to say our it and i teach regulations presently in existence would prohibit on the malian cloning unless such cloning is first approved by a national ethics advisory board in the context of the public debate so we could not at the moment go ahead with that senator mccain did do you think that such a ban dividing line between frogs and mammals is justified no in a word because you do not accept james it would've a moment ago that continue the present experimentation into their lower levels would inevitably carry us closer to cloning humans i do agree with him that it will bring us closer to the possibility of cloning humans thought i simply feel that the our biological virtue of learning how to clone and to combine

a mammalian mammalian genetics with this interesting and novel upper stage you would be would be worth all we would would be worth supporting and they knew that and then you draw the line later if necessary for him it i think that that we are unduly concerned about the cloning of a man i think that i want to emphasize we can't do it presently if it is a long time in the future it may only be five or ten years that we can't at the present time in as a minute there is not at the present time a hazard in cloning man that would compare with the heads of the smoke scientists are we have to be that they're thank you were both in washington for joining us that has to try to imagine this offer tonight mr nabil back on monday night i'm robert siegel the

peak to peak so right now it was just three four five the macneil lehrer report was produced by wnet new and double ninety eight they are solely responsible for its content funding for this program has been provided by the station and other public television stations and by grants from exelon corporation allied chemical corporation for the corporation for public broadcasting it's b you or owner mood