The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. In the news tonight, Philippines president Marcos resigned and fled to Guam. The Reagan administration recognized Corazon Aquino as president. A private rocket engineer said NASA pressured his bosses to agree to the ill-fated Challenger launch. Mikhail Gorbachev said Soviet troops would withdraw from Afghanistan when foreign armed interference ended. Details of these stories coming up in our news summary. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: After the news summary we look at the going of Ferdinand Marcos with newsmaker interviews with a key State Department official, two members of Congress and an official of the brand-new Aquino government. And we have a full report on the stunning new Challenger testimony by Morton Thiokol engineers. News Summary

MacNEIL: President Marcos gave up today. Faced with a swelling tide of rebellion, desertions and national outrage, Marcos and his family slipped out of their palace by dark a few hours after he was sworn in for another term. A fleet of U.S. helicopters flew them to Clark Air Force Base, where he rested and then left for Guam. The Reagan administration gave its blessing to the rival government of Corazon Aquino. Thousands of Filipinos burst out in joyful celebrations and stormed the luxurious Marcos palace. Our report from Manila by Brian Barron of the BBC begins with Mrs. Aquino staking her claim to the presidency by taking an oath earlier in the day.

SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I --

CORAZON AQUINO, President-elect of the Philippines: I --

JUSTICE: -- Cojuango Oblando Aquino --

Pres. AQUINO: -- Cojuango Oblando Aquino --

JUSTICE: -- do solemnly swear --

Pres. AQUINO: -- do solemnly swear --

JUSTICE: -- that I will faithfully --

Pres. AQUINO: -- that I will faithfully --

JUSTICE: -- and conscientiously --

Pres. AQUINO: -- and conscientiously --

JUSTICE: -- fulfill my duty --

Pres. AQUINO: -- fulfill my duty --

JUSTICE: -- as president of the Philippines --

Pres. AQUINO: -- as president of the Philippines --

JUSTICE: -- to serve and defend its fundamental law.

Pres. AQUINO: -- to serve and defend --

BRIAN BARRON, BBC [voice-over]: After kisses with her family, the 53-year-old widow paid off her immediate political dues. Running mate Doy Laurel becomes prime minister. Renegade defense minister Juan Enrile gets the same job under Mrs. Aquino, and the army wasn't forgotten.

Pres. AQUINO: I hereby promote Lieutenant General Fidel V. Ramos to full general, and --

BARRON [voice-over]: Apart from Mrs. Aquino herself, General Ramos is the hero of the revolution. His defection fatally split Mr. Marcos' armed forces. Mrs. Aquino's rise to power dates from the murder of her politician husband. In her eyes the ousted president is the number-one suspect. Mr. Marcos' attempt to have his inauguration televised live to the nation came unstuck.

SPEAKER: And now, ladies and gentlemen, the moment we've been waiting for, the administration of the oath of office of his excellency, President Ferdinand E. Marcos.

BARRON [voice-over]: Moments later that broadcast was cut off.

BROADCASTER [at besieged station]: We have had some technical problems.

BARRON [voice-over]: What really happened was this: a savage street fight for control of the television channel. The Marcos troops, staked out on the television mast, had little chance against overwhelming rebel firepower.

PUBLIC ADDRESS ANNOUNCER: We would like to request all the people to get off the firing range. Please!

BARRON [voice-over]: What helped tip the balance was a rebel helicopter which pinpointed the Marcos troops' location. Suddenly it was all over, and people power in the shape of Mrs. Aquino's supporters had won yet another battle.

CROWD: Cory! Cory! Cory!

BARRON [voice-over]: Tonight, as Mr. Marcos steels himself for a life in exile, people power has taken over his beloved Malacanang. They poured through the gates without resistance. Within minutes, Aquino supporters began throwing state papers from the palace's windows. Others destroyed official portraits of the ousted family, and that brought intervention from a palace retainer.

MALACANANG RETAINER: Let us show our love for the new president by not touching the palace! Do not steal anything from the palace!

BARRON [voice-over]: There is understandable jubilation tonight. Mr. Marcos has gone; good riddance, say the majority.

MacNEIL: In a later statement on television Mrs. Aquino appealed to the crowds at the Malacanang Palace to stay calm and observe sobriety. She said, "The long agony is over. We are finally free and now we can be truly proud of the unprecedented way we achieved our freedom." Jim?

LEHRER: The world heard about the final presidential act of Ferdinand Marcos from the U.S. secretary of state. George Shultz announced the Marcos departure at a morning White House news conference, and he said the United States had officially recognized the new government of Corazon Aquino.

GEORGE SHULTZ, Secretary of State: The new government has been produced by one of the most stirring and courageous examples of the democratic process in modern history. We honor the Filipino people. The United States stands ready as always to cooperate and assist the Philippines as the government of President Aquino engages the problems of economic development and national security. We praise the decision of President Marcos. We are gratified that his departure from office has come peacefully, characterized by the dignity and strength that have marked his many years of leadership.

LEHRER: Members of Congress of all persuasions, Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals, praised and applauded the Marcos end and the Aquino beginning.

Rep. STEPHEN SOLARZ, (D) New York: The people of the Philippines have won a great victory. In one of the few authentic democratic revolutions in history, they have succeeded in toppling a corrupt and discredited dictatorship and have replaced it with what we all hope will be a viable and vital democracy.

Rep. WILLIAM BROOMFIELD, (R) Michigan: I want to take this occasion to praise President Reagan for his masterful handling of the recent developments in the Philippines. The change of government in that country was brought about with minimal bloodshed, and through his leadership a major change in power in the Philippines was brought about in a calm and controlled manner.

Rep. BARBARA BOXER, (D) California: Let us remember, guns don't bring democracy; the people do. Our best to you, President Aquino.

LEHRER: Many members of Congress also urged the United States to move quickly to provide generous economic aid to the new Aquino government.

MacNEIL: There was dramatic testimony today at the presidential commission investigating the Challenger disaster. Alan McDonald, a rocket booster engineer, said he strongly opposed the launch and was absolutely positive top NASA officials would know of his feelings. Told they'd never heard of his fears, McDonald said, "I can hardly believe that." He said his company, Morton Thiokol, the rocket booster manufacturers, felt pressure from NASA to reverse their recommendation not to launch that day because of the cold weather.

ALAN McDONALD, Morton Thiokol: I was absolutely surprised that NASA would accept any recommendation below 40 degrees Fahrenheit, especially with a predicted temperature as low as 26 degrees Fahrenheit. I may be naive about what generates launch-commit criteria, but I was under the impression that that was generated based on the qualification of all elements that subsist in the space shuttle, that anything that was outside that qualification was a launch-commit criterion, and we never went outside that envelope. In fact, I made the direct statement that if anything happened to this launch, I told them I sure wouldn't want to be the person that had to stand in front of a board of inquiry to explain why I launched this outside of the qualification of the solid rocket motor or any shuttle system.

MacNEIL: Another Thiokol engineer, Roger Boisjoly, testified that at the meeting between the company and NASA officials the night before there was not a single statement made in favor of the launch. Boisjoly said he did all he could to stop the launch. As the investigation deepened, the White House announced that James Beggs has resigned as NASA administrator. Beggs has been on unpaid leave to face indictment on fraud charges unconnected with NASA. His resignation permits President Reagan to appoint a new head for the embattled agency.

LEHRER: Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachevsaid today agreement has been reached to remove Soviet troops from Afghanistan. He told the 27th Communist Party Congress in Moscow the 115,000 soldiers will leave in accordance to a schedule worked out with the Afghan government. He said withdrawal will begin in the near future, once a political settlement was reached and "foreign armed interference" ends. But he was not specific about those two conditions. It was the first party congress in five years, and Gorbachev used the occasion to attack former party leader Leonid Brezhnev's government as rigid and bureaucratic. The 5,000 delegates also heard Gorbachev reject the latest nuclear arms proposal from President Reagan, and to say the timing of his next summit meeting with Mr. Reagan was dependent on arms control progress. At the end of their first summit meeting in Geneva last November, the two leaders agreed to meet again sometime this year.

MacNEIL: A reverse for the Soviet space program is predicted for later this week. Scientists in West Germany said parts of a 10-ton satellite will crash somewhere on the earth, most likely on Thursday. The satellite, which is called Cosmos 1714, has slipped out of orbit and is too large to burn up entirely on re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The satellite has no cosmonauts on board, and it is not powered by nuclear energy.

LEHRER: And finally in the news of this day, the Supreme Court said it was all right for cities and towns to control the location of adult movie theaters. The court, in a seven-to-two vote, upheld a Renton, Washington, ordinance which restricts adult movie houses to a particular area of town. The court's majority opinion said a community has the right to use zoning laws to protect the quality of its urban life.

MacNEIL: And that's our summary of the news. Coming up, two of the U.S. officials closely involved describe the process that led to the fall of Marcos. We also have reaction from the Congress and an Aquino official. Then, extended coverage of today's hearings by the presidential commission on the Challenger disaster. Philippines: Fall from Power

LEHRER: Ferdinand Marcos is no longer the president of the Philippines. He was replaced today by Corazon Aquino, widow of a Marcos opponent assassinated 30 months ago. In the end, the once-defiant Marcos went quietly, after getting the message from the Philippine people and the government of his major ally, the United States of America. At a morning Washington news conference, Secretary of State Shultz described the departure of Marcos like this.

Sec. SHULTZ: Obviously President Marcos was reluctant to leave his post, but at any rate he has decided to do so, and so it has been possible to resolve this issue in a way that is peaceful and non-violent and in a way that allows the emergence of a consensus in the Philippines, and on the basis of that they will be able to go ahead and work at the undoubted problems they have.

SAM DONALDSON, ABC News: Mr. Secretary, can you tell us what role the United States played in the last 24 hours in helping to facilitate this peaceful transition in the Philippines?

Sec. SHULTZ: Well, you've seen our public statements that have characterized our view of the situation. Of course, the ambassador and others have had many discussions with the principals involved. Senator Laxalt was called by President Marcos yesterday afternoon, our time, and then had a subsequent conversation with him after talking with the President and me. So there has been a great deal of interaction. But basically I think the point here is this has not been something that the United States has done. This is something that the people of the Philippines have done. They are our close friends, and we respect them, we honor them for this outpouring of democracy, and we stand ready to work with the new government of President Aquino.

MacNEIL: Congress has been a player in the Philippine drama for more than a year. Congressional hearings spotlighted a deteriorating economic and military situation. Congressional observers brought home eyewitness reports of massive election fraud earlier this month. And it was a U.S. senator, Paul Laxalt of Nevada, President Reagan's closest friend on Capitol Hill, who first took President Marcos the message that he was losing support in the administration. And over the past 24 hours, as Ferdinand Marcos' world was crumbling around him, it was to Senator Laxalt that he placed a last desperate call. The senator recounted that conversation to reporters today.

Sen. PAUL LAXALT, (R) Nevada: He wondered whether or not the message that had been delivered to him by the State Department people yesterday was valid. I indicated that it was. He then asked whether or not the transition portion of the statement would indicate that he should stay on until the conclusion of his present term in '87. I told him that I wasn't that conversant with that particular phrase. He then asked whether or not something could be worked out whereby power could be shared. He felt that if the new government came in they would need and require his services in connection with things such as IMF and the communist insurgency. I told him that I hadn't had any discussions concerning power sharing, but that in my view that it was impractical. He didn't comment concerning that.

He then indicated that he had a strong desire to stay at home in the Philippines and that he wanted assurances from our government that there would be no vindictiveness or revenge concerning him, his family and associates. I indicated to him that that certainly was a negotiable item and I thought that that could be worked upon. He stated that he still had extensive support. He intended to go through with the inauguration. He still considered himself president, that he enjoyed some 85 support from the army, and that unless something satisfactory could be worked out, that he did not intend, as he said, to give up. I then indicated to him that I would discuss this with the President.

Bear in mind that this was at three o'clock in the morning his time. I asked him whether or not he'd been up all night. He said, "Yes, we all have been." He said, "We have been all night long afraid that the palace would be stormed and everybody would be killed." He indicated that there had been a helicopter dropping of a grenade, that two of his close security people had been wounded. He was irate about that. He indicated that there were reports coming from our people there that were are going to have naval ships come up the river and assist the opposition against him. I told him that I found that incredible, that I didn't believe it, but that I would check it out.

I thereafter met with Secretary of State Shultz and some of his people and thereafter we proceeded to meet with the President. After meeting with the President, I then called President Marcos and reaffirmed the message. He asked whether or not the President wanted him to step down. And I indicated the President wasn't in the position to make that kind of recommendation, certainly not that kind of demand, that he had hoped that there would be a peaceful transition. Then he asked me the gut question. He said, "Senator, what do you think? Should I step down?" And I said, "Mr. President, I'm not bound by diplomatic restraints. I'm talking only for myself, but I think you should cut and cut cleanly. I think the time has come." And there was the longest pause on the other end of that phone. It seemed to last minutes. And I said, "Mr. President, are you still there?" And finally he came on and he says, "Yes, I'm here, Senator." He says, "I'm so very, very disappointed."

LEHRER: The story of Senator Paul Laxalt. White House and State Department officials of all ranks and enthusiams heralded the end of the Philippine crisis as a triumph for U.S. foreign policy and diplomacy. Most in Congress and elsewhere seemed to agree, even some of the Reagan administration's most severe critics in the past. We get a debriefing on how that policy and diplomacy actually worked now from the State Department official most concerned, Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs Paul Wolfowitz.

Mr. Secretary, we just heard the step-by-step story of Senator Laxalt. When Senator Laxalt said cut and cut clearly --

PAUL WOLFOWITZ: Cleanly.

LEHRER: Cleanly. Was that the crucial phrase? Was that what finally did it?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I think many things did it, and I think, you know, you said it's a triumph of American diplomacy. I think the words triumph and jubilation and so forth are words for Filipinos. The Filipinos did this. I think Marcos saw the reality around him in Manila and the Philippines. I think that conversation with Laxalt was a historic conversation, though, and I think that this man who he knew was a friend of his and wished him no harm said, "The time has come Mr. President, that's the reality," I think that helped him face it.

LEHRER: Can you put that Laxalt conversation into a context? What else was happening at the time, and what caused -- do you know what caused President Marcos to call Senator Laxalt in the first place?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I can only speculate; I think we all can. But, first of all, the most important thing is what was happening in the Philippines. It was clear, I think to everyone, that Marcos had lost the support of his people. He had lost the support of the business community in the Philippines, he had lost the support of the church. Now, on Saturday, he lost the support of one of his major generals and his defense minister and a major section of his army. And by the time that call took place, which I guess would have been about, as the senator explained it, 3:00 a.m. Tuesday morning, Manila time, yesterday afternoon our time, I think he could see that he was losing the support of major loyal elements in his own army. And those elements that still remained with him were unwilling to carry out his orders, unwilling to roll over nuns and roll over people. And the kind of power that he had commanded in the past was just melting away.

LEHRER: Senator Laxalt said that Mr. Marcos also said, "I want to find out from you, Senator, if what I am hearing from the State Department, the United States State Department, does in fact reflect the position of President Reagan and the United States government." What was he hearing from the State Department and who was he hearing it from?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Well, I think in fact -- he was hearing a number of things, but in fact the record is there out pretty much in public. There were three important statements that were issued by the White House during the course of the weekend, the last of which was an expression of very strong concern at the use of violence. It was a theme throughout, in fact, that Marcos not attempt to resolve this crisis by force. And early in the morning our time, Monday morning Washington time, which would have been just as dusk was settling in on Manila on Monday night, when the most disturbing reports of an imminent attack on the Enrile-Ramos headquarters came to Washington, we issued that final statement, which was prepared by the secretary of state and other senior advisers and checked with the President about 4:00 in the morning, and it said that attempts to prolong the life of this government by force are futile and the only solution to this crisis is a peaceful transition to a new regime, to a new government.

LEHRER: From your perspective, was that the crucial point for the United States?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I'm not sure there is a crucial point. I think in a sense the crucial point of this whole most recent period we've been in was the announcement Saturday afternoon in Manila by one of the most respected generals in the Philippine army and by Marcos' own defense minister that they were deserting him and that they were calling on the troops to rally to Mrs. Aquino. And the defense minister himself said that he knew personally that this election had been stolen.

LEHRER: Did we know -- we, the United States government -- know that the former defense minister and General Ramos were going to do what they did before they did it?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: No, we did not. In fact, I don't think they decided until very much at the last minute. I think they feared they were about to be the victims of the crackdown.

LEHRER: After they did it, what kind of communication was there between them and the United States government?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Well, in fact Minister Enrile phoned Ambassador Bosworth almost immediately after they had done it and informed him that this had taken place. And there was contact throughout the weekend both by our ambassador and people in Manila.

LEHRER: What was the nature -- what were we saying to them, "Right on, guys. We're behind you"? or "Cool it"? or "Call us when you resolve things"? What was the message we were giving to those two men who were in a very tense situation?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Well, I think it was several messages, and again this is clear if I can take it back to -- it's in the public record. The first statement that we made, which was one that began by calling attention to this truly major development, that now major elements within Marcos' own military were saying he's lost his legitimacy, the election was stolen, it's time for a new government.

LEHRER: So you did side with those two?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: No, we had at that point one major concern, and that was to avoid violence because if this -- if Marcos had attempted to take those camps that they were holding by force, he might well have succeeded. He had more guns at the time. If that had taken place I think we'd be facing a very different future in the Philippines with Marcos or without him. The fact that this crisis was resolved substantially non-violently -- and I know you showed at the beginning here a clip of the sniper incident, and I know television likes to show exciting clips like that. What is really remarkable is that there was almost none of that, that almost nobody was killed in this thing. The real event, I think, and I know this is what the President saw that impressed him, was nuns sitting down in front of tanks. And then you have to remember that's not the end of it. It's that tank driver up there who said, "I'm not -- whatever my orders are, I'm not going ahead." These were -- this is a -- when I say this is a Filipino solution, I mean those Filipino nuns and I mean those Filipino tank drivers. There was a restraint throughout this that makes me much more hopeful about the future.

LEHRER: You were the point man for this, you and, I would assume, in conjunction with Ambassador Bosworth in Manila. I mean, I think it -- I would assume it was to you that Secretary of State Shultz and others turned to for information?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Without modesty, this really was a team effort in two respects. Within the State Department, our undersecretary of state, Mr. Armacost, was a former ambassador in Manila. He's played a very crucial role in this process.

LEHRER: Okay, your humility aside, here's my -- let me ask -- my question is this. When did you conclude professionally, as a State Department professional diplomat, that in the last two or three days that Marcos had lost the support? You said a minute ago it was clear to you that Marcos had lost the support of the Philippine people. When did you conclude that was in fact a fact?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I think one can argue he lost the support of the Filipino people earlier, but what was decisive was that now he was losing the support of his own loyalists. And I think when a man like Ramos, who is a man of great integrity and I think very much respected by the opposition as well, but he clearly was a loyal man. He's not a man who is normally given to bold actions. When a man like that took the step that he did, to me that meant Marcos' ability to govern in the Philippines was finished.

LEHRER: And you transmitted that opinion to everybody who would listen to you, I assume, you and your team?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I would say, in fact, a very powerful consensus developed within the State Department and within the Defense Department, with whom we worked very closely throughout this, and the National Security Council. I'd say almost everyone I know came to that perception about that time.

LEHRER: In introducing you I used the word "triumph" of U.S. foreign policy and diplomacy. Is the triumph, Mr. Secretary, in that Marcos is gone or that Marcos is gone with little or no bloodshed?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Well, I think -- can I quibble a little bit?

LEHRER: Sure.

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I don't use the word triumph.

LEHRER: That was my word, I agree.

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I feel relieved that there's been no bloodshed, and I feel very hopeful that maybe now the Philippines can get on with the basic reforms that for several years now we have been saying are necessary. Our agenda was never getting rid of Marcos. Our agenda was getting political reform, economic reform, military reform. I think, ironically, if he had done what we urged him to do, he would probably still be the president of the Philippines.

LEHRER: Which is clean up his act?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Right.

LEHRER: Essentially. Would you anticipate that Mrs. Aquino would have a very warm feeling toward the United States based on our official conduct over these last several weeks?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I think it's not just the last several weeks. I think for two years we have been very clear about what we stand for in the Philippines and that that is basically democracy. We have made it clear that while we have a big interest in the bases that our policy in the Philippines is not hostage to the bases, and in fact we've said while we're concerned about communism and there is a strong communist insurgency in the Philippines that the key to defeating that insurgency is democratic reform. So I think we have been clear, we've been on record. We've been on record for over two years. I met Mrs. Aquino once, in January of '85 in the Philippines. I was actually pleased to say I was publicly attacked at the time by one of President Marcos' ministers, for interfering in their internal affairs just for meeting with her. I was impressed at that time by her sincerity and her good feeling toward Americans. And I would think that the things that have happened in the intervening 18 months would only reinforce those basic feelings.

LEHRER: And she should have received good signals, in other words? In other words, the Aquino regime that has just begun today should look upon the United States government as now constituted as an ally?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I believe so. I think we have done what an ally should do. We have stood for the right principles. We have stood for the welfare of the Philippines as well as the United States, and I think she appreciates that fact. I think the great mass of Filipinos do.

LEHRER: Back to President Marcos.

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I might say, Jim, just an observation in that regard. One of the things that really struck our presidential observer delegation that was sent out there was the incredible warmth with which they were greeted everywhere they went. They had this little sign that said "U.S. Presidential Observer" and there was just an outpouring of pro-American feeling.

LEHRER: Now, back to President Marcos. Why did he go to Guam? What was involved in getting those U.S. helicopters in that palace, getting him and his family on those helicopters out the Clark Air Force Base and then later tonight, our time, to Guam?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: He had basically a very short rest at Clark, which as you know, or maybe I should make clear, that that's Filipino territory. They have sovereignty but we use it. It became clear very quickly that he wasn't welcome in the Philippines and that he had to get out, and I think the judgment was, indeed, the best thing was to do it quickly. He's not in the greatest of health, and he's been through a very, very difficult few days here after a trying several months. So Guam was the closest place. He can get some medical attention. I think it's only temporary. I don't know where he'll finally end up.

LEHRER: That was my next question. Is there any indication of where he wants to go?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Not a clear indication, but our President has made it clear that he's welcome in the United States. I just briefed a large collection of congressmen up on the Hill, including some of his most bitter critics over the years, and I think my impression is they all understand the importance to the United States of standing by people even when they're down, and I think they understand the importance to resolving this crisis that we made a pledge to Marcos of his safety.

LEHRER: But hasn't he sent the signal that he doesn't want to come here? Or did I get that wrong?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: I think it's quite clear that he would prefer to stay in his own country. And that's not an outlandish idea. President Sukarno of Indonesia, for example, died in 1975, years after he'd been overthrown. He lived out his life there, nevertheless, but in the circumstances it looked like that wasn't possible.

LEHRER: You expect him to end up here then, right? Eventually?

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: It's too early to say.

LEHRER: Too early to say.

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: If I were a betting man I'd say that's the most likely outcome.

LEHRER: Okay, I'll take your bet. No, I won't take your bet. I'll just go with you on that. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.

Sec. WOLFOWITZ: Thank you.

LEHRER: Robin?

MacNEIL: We now have the views of two congressmen involved in the Philippines events, Stephen Solarz, Democrat from New York, chairman of the Asian and Pacific Affairs Subcommittee, and Congressman Bob Livingston, a Republican from Louisiana who was a member of the official American observer team during the recent elections. Both gentlemen join us from Capitol Hill.

Congressman Solarz, we just heard Secretary Shultz say this is not something the United States has done. To what extent is that true?

Rep. STEPHEN SOLARZ: I think this was primarily a triumph of the Filipino people, Robin. It was one of the few authentic democratic revolutions in history. It may have been one of those rare occasions, I don't know actually of any other, where it was the people who were protecting the army rather than the army that was protecting the people. To the extent that we did have some role to play in facilitating a peaceful transition to a new government which has the confidence of the Filipino people, I think all Americans can be proud of the role we played. But clearly the primary credit has to go to the people of the Philippines themselves who were willing to put their lives on the line for democracy, in one of the most moving demonstrations of courage and of a commitment to the democratic process that I think any of us has ever seen.

MacNEIL: Would that have been able to happen, would they have had that courage had not there been large American footprints on the situation several months ago?

Rep. SOLARZ: Oh, I think that they have been demonstrating this courage for several years now. Ninoy Aquino's willingness to return to the Philippines was a classic example of --

MacNEIL: That's Corazon Aquino's husband, who was assassinated.

Rep. SOLARZ: Yes, and in fact the button I'm wearing right over here has his picture on it. I thought this was an appropriate day to put it on, because his spirit has been resurrected in the Philippines by the courageous campaign which his wife carried on. And I think what it demonstrates is that Ninoy Aquino did not die in vain and that the hundreds, the thousands, the hundreds of thousands of other Filipinos who risked their lives for democracy resulted in the end of the dictatorship and the establishment of a new government which will permit the restoration of democracy in the Philippines.

MacNEIL: Well, I don't want to push this too far, but let me ask Congressman Livingston, would all this have unfolded if the United States had sat here with its hands folded, going back several months ago, and done nothing?

Rep. BOB LIVINGSTON: Well, I don't think so. I think that you have to say that the United States had a delicate role to play, though. We rolled down the middle of the road trying not to take sides on one side or the other but making sure that our primary interest was on behalf of the Philippine people in terms of bringing them to whatever extent we could or encouraging political reform, military reform and economic reform. And with those quiet messages that we were sending through diplomatic channels to President Marcos, to his administration and to the Filipino people in general, gradually that came to pass. In fact, I think that you have to say that President Marcos more or less picked up the challenge, anticipating, I suppose, that he was going to overwhelmingly win the election with the support of his people, when he, in front of David Brinkley on his show, called for those elections. He called for the elections, though, and he predicted that he would win. He -- frankly, I think in retrospect it can safely be said that he didn't win, and now we are where we are. But it was the very quiet behind-the-scenes work of the Reagan administration and the State Department which I think brought us to where we are today.

LEHRER: Congressman Solarz, you've been very active in holding hearings at which President Marcos and his family were accused of a lot of, if not direct misappropriation of American funds, heavily investing in American real estate with the implication, perhaps, that there was a misappropriation or a misuse. He told Senator Laxalt, in a passage we didn't hear tonight, he was reluctant to come here because he felt congressional committees will go after him. Are you going to do that? Are you going to pursue him? Has he been granted some kind of immunity from any such action by this pledge that was made of his safety? What is your feeling about that?

Rep. SOLARZ: Nobody from the administration has spoken to me about this, Robin. Let me say that prior to today's developments we had no plans of bringing Mr. Marcos before our committee. We certainly have no intention of harassing him. The committee has not yet completed its investigation of the hidden wealth of the Marcoses in the United States, and we may well be holding some additional hearings on this subject in the future. But I think it would really be premature at this time for me to give anybody any absolute assurances with respect to what we might do in the future in terms of calling Mr. Marcos before us. I can only tell you that we have no present plans of doing so at this time.

MacNEIL: Do you think as a matter of honor, as part of this pledge, Congressman Livingston, that Mr. Marcos and his family should be immune from any sort of proceeding if he is allowed to come here?

Rep. LIVINGSTON: I don't say that you can make him immune to Philippine law. Certainly the new administration over there in the Philippines has to make up their own minds as to what action they might take from this point on -- civil action I'm particularly speaking of. But insofar as President Reagan's assurances that he would be left -- he would be alllowed to remain safe here in this country if he were to leave expeditiously as was described earlier on the program, I'd have to tell you that in my opinion, frankly, we ought to let bygones by bygones. The events of the Philippines unfolded as peacefully as possible. There was some violence, there were some deaths and we regret that fact. But by and large it could have been a lot worse than it was. President Marcos decided to give up the ship, and he's in Guam or going to Guam now. If he comes to the United States, frankly, it would be my hope that we would allow him to live out his life in peace.

MacNEIL: What do you think, Congressman Solarz, the Congress is going to want to do about the pressing economic and social and military problems that remain in the Philippines for Mrs. Aquino to face?

Rep. SOLARZ: I think it's very clear, Robin, that the re-establishment of democracy in the Philippines is not by itself a panacea for the problems that confront that country. The communist insurgency is not going to disappear overnight. The economy which has been ravaged by a decade of crony capitalism and government-led capital flight will not instantaneously recover. Having helped to bring about the end of dictatorship, I think our country has an enormous stake in the success of democracy in the Philippines. And Mrs. Aquino is clearly going to need all of the help she can get in her effort to consolidate democracy in the Philippines and then to begin to deal with the underlying economic and military problems which confront her country. I'm planning to go out to Manila next week in order to meet with President Aquino and with Prime Minister Laurel, in order to find out from them how they feel the United States can make the most effective contribution to their efforts to deal with the many problems which still confront them.

MacNEIL: And how do you feel about that, Congressman Livingston? And do you have -- can I couple with that, do you have any anxieties about Mrs. Aquino as president?

Rep. LIVINGSTON: Actually not. I've talked with people that know Mrs. Aquino, who have spoken with her closely over the last few weeks as these events have unfolded, and I'm confident that Mrs. Aquino is a deeply religious person, and a person who wants democracy for her country. So I'm satisfied that, frankly, because of the role that the United States has played over the last couple of years to walk down that fine narrow line down the middle, that we'll be able to deal very warmly with Mrs. Aquino and, having spoken with both her supporters and the supporters of President Marcos over the last few weeks, I can tell you that it's my firm conviction that the Filipino people probably are as pro-American today as they've ever been, and I'm convinced that we'll have no trouble in dealing with them in the future.

MacNEIL: Well, Congressman Livingston, Congressman Solarz, thank you for joining us from Capitol Hill.

Rep. SOLARZ: Thank you, Robin.

MacNEIL: Jim?

LEHRER: That brand new Aquino government wasted no time in setting up shop here in Washington. Judy Woodruff has that story. Judy?

JUDY WOODRUFF: There's been an active opposition movement to the Marcos government in the U.S. for some time, working with members of Congress and talking with members of the Reagan administration in hopes of undermining official support here for the Marcos regime. Today some of these opposition figures showed up at the Philippine embassy in Washington at what they called a symbol that the embassy belongs to the people again. The ambassador under President Marcos was said to have resigned. One of those who participated in the news conference at the embassy was Herson Alvarez, president of the Ninoy Aquino movement in the U.S. Mr. Alvarez is chairman of a foreign service transition committee and is expected to assume a post in the Aquino government either here or in the Philippines. Mr. Alvarez, what is your feeling at this point about this man you worked against for so long and now he's finally left your country?

HERSON ALVAREZ: Well, I hope he really comes and settles down here. I've been a refugee here for 13 years. I think the laws here have been fair. I think he should be dealt with fairly, too. I'm sure that while he lives the short remaining years of his life, he will be a living symbol of the mistakes that could have been avoided.

WOODRUFF: How do you feel about the way he's handled his final days? Were you surprised that there wasn't any more bloodshed than there was?

Mr. ALVAREZ: I was surprised because I've always been made to believe that Marcos was a stern and a ruthless man. So we were expecting the worst. That's why we were very happy too, with the intercession of the American government. I think the conversations that he's been holding with American policymakers put a lot of sense into his planning and thinking of the whole problem. And of course the oblique intimation that there was no more of that great American support which he had used to run the system for some years had helped a lot. I do believe that American foreign policy can count on this decision as one of the feather on its plume.

WOODRUFF: You think the Reagan administration handled this correctly then? Is that right?

Mr. ALVAREZ: Yes. The day before the fall yesterday we were having a massive demonstration in front of the White House and they were demanding for more, more, more. Of course when we were saying that we were happy that they already had done something. But activists that we were, we wanted to have everything. And they did well, I think. They should be congratulated and we should be grateful for it.

WOODRUFF: But you do believe they were helpful, that they didn't prolong his stay in any way?

Mr. ALVAREZ: Definitely. I think they were helpful within the parameters of their responsibility as a power, a big power.

WOODRUFF: And it was the support, in other words, that you as someone active in the opposition movement was counting on, that it was the kind of support that you expected?

Mr. ALVAREZ: Yes. Our best friends, of course, were in the Senate, gentlemen like Mr. Solarz in the House and then Mr. Laxalt and so on down the line. But the government itself, the executive arm, did stand on the way. I think we had friends in all segments of the government.

WOODRUFF: There have been reports that Mrs. Aquino was upset and even offended by what President Reagan said at his news conference a few weeks ago, when he said that there were appearances of fraud on both sides in the election. Do you know if that's the case?

Mr. ALVAREZ: Of course, yes, I know that was the case. And we were all offended.

WOODRUFF: I mean that she felt --

Mr. ALVAREZ: Yes, of course.

WOODRUFF: -- upset about it?

Mr. ALVAREZ: That was communicated to us and we tried to make inquiries and I called up the State Department and someone responsible in the State Department told us, look for the results. But nonetheless we didn't let down our guards. We started to put on pressure, look for friends who could communicate the message, and the whole mix of decisions I think worked out well.

WOODRUFF: And what do you see now as the prospects for a relationship between the new regime, the Marcos -- excuse me, the new Aquino regime and the Reagan administration?

Mr. ALVAREZ: I think the traditional relationship which we've always had with America, the perception of America as a friend of the Filipino people will even more be stronger. I think America has played a very restraining and a very moderating role in this change, but it did play a role.

WOODRUFF: The one -- go ahead. I'm sorry.

Mr. ALVAREZ: There will be some memories of the days when they supported Mr. Marcos but I think it's more than made up with the conduct of foreign policy in these last many days when the people began to assert themselves.

WOODRUFF: The one thing that has united the opposition, or one of the things that's united the opposition in the Philippines in the past has been the desire to get rid of President Marcos. Now that he is gone, what is going to continue to hold the opposition together? There were several opposition leaders saying today that Mrs. Aquino faces a very difficult task in holding together all these disparate groups.

Mr. ALVAREZ: There's no doubt, but I think her mandate is vast, very wide and very deep, and that's going to get her a long way. It's going to be some time before that leadership, which is solidly supported by the massive population -- see, the factions of the different political organizations there are represented by personalities and leadership and perhaps the differences will be along these lines -- leadership, personality lines or party lines. But this time the people have acted, and the reaction and support for Mrs. Aquino's candidacy was overwhelming. It was even more overwhelming when they showed that they were prepared to die for her.

WOODRUFF: Briefly, what do you see as her main responsibility, her main task right now?

Mr. ALVAREZ: I think the first order of the day will be an economic reconstruction program. We will really have to look into the mess that Mr. Marcos has left behind. Of course, there is going to be political reforms. She's going to look into the constitution, to restore a thoroughly viable democracy, to expunge from the constitutional provisions those despicable powers that Mr. Marcos had taken unto himself and really make a working democratic government that will also be able to handle [unintelligible].

WOODRUFF: And you will be a part of that new administration?

Mr. ALVAREZ: I'm going home [unintelligible]. So I hope I can make some contributions.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Herson Alvarez, we thank you for being with us.

Mr. ALVAREZ: Thank you very much. NASA: Warning Ignored?

LEHRER: Engineers from the Morton Thiokol company told their side of the story today to the presidential commission investigating the Challenger tragedy. They spoke of pressure from NASA, of having their safety concerns overruled, among other things. Elizabeth Brackett has this full report.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT [voice-over]: Allan McDonald, a top engineer for the contractor who makes the solid rocket boosters for the shuttle, did not want the ill-fated Challenger to launch on that cold January 28th morning. McDonald told the presidential commission investigating the tragedy that he was sure top NASA officials knew of the concerns Morton Thiokol engineers had about the impact of the 28-degree weather on the seals of the solid rocket boosters.

ALLAN McDONALD, Morton Thiokol: I was absolutely positive and sure that they were brought to their attention because that's the way things go. I talked to the SRB project manager, I talked to his boss, the shuttle project manager, the shuttle project office and I was sure that those all went through that review. I had no doubt in my mind that they had.

WILLIAM ROGERS, Presidential Commission Chairman: NASA folk indicated that they would pass your concerns along?

Mr. McDONALD: And I presumed they'd pass them all along. I didn't see any reason why they wouldn't.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Previously the presidential commission has said top NASA officials were unaware of the engineers' concerns, of the impact of the cold on the O-rings used to seal the rocket's joints. McDonald said he was shocked that NASA made the decision to go ahead with the launch. He felt definitive tests had not been made of the impact of the cold on the shuttle's equipment at such low temperatures.

Mr. McDONALD: And I was absolutely surprised that NASA would accept any recommendation below 40 degrees Fahrenheit, especially with a predicted temperature as low as 26 degrees Fahrenheit. I told them I may be naive about what generates launch commit criteria, but I was under the impression that that was generated based on the qualification of all elements or subsystems of the space shuttle, that anything that was outside that qualification was a launch commit criterion and we never went outside that envelope. In fact, I made the direct statement that if anything happened to this launch, I told them I sure wouldn't want to be the person that had to stand in front of a board of inquiry and explain why I launched this outside of the qualification of the solid rocket motor or any shuttle system.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: McDonald was asked if he felt pressure to change his decision on the launch.

Mr. McDONALD: Yes, definitely. There was no doubt in my mind. I felt some pressure. I feel that I have a responsible management position in here and I felt pressure by the strong statements --

Mr. ROGERS: Would you explain the reasons for feeling pressure?

Mr. McDONALD: Well, I've been in many flight readiness reviews, probably as many as anyone in the past year and a half at Thiokol. And I've had to get up and stand before I think a very critical audience at Marshall, a very good one, justifying why hardware was ready to fly. And that's the way it should be. It's not pleasant, but that's the way it should be. And I was surprised here at this particular meeting that the tone of the meeting was just opposite of that. I didn't have to prove I was ready to fly. In fact, I think Bob Phippen made the most accurate statement I ever heard. His conclusion in that meeting was is the philosophy seemed to change because, you know, he had the same impression I did, that the contractor always had to get up, stand up and prove that his hardware was ready to fly. In this case we had to prove it wasn't, and that's a big difference. And I felt that was pressure.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: McDonald explained a series of meetings that had gone on the night before the launch. McDonald, operating from Cape Canaveral, asked for a three-way conversation with engineers and management at Morton Thiokol in Utah and NASA middle-level managers in Huntsville, Alabama.

Mr. McDONALD: And the bottom line was is that the engineering people would not recommend a launch below 53 degrees Fahrenheit, but we were concerned of launching beyond our experience base below that temperature. Well, that temperature brought a lot of strong comments and reaction from several of the NASA officials. I believe it was Mr. Mulloy made some comments about when we'll ever fly if we have to live with that sometime in the future. And also commented that, you know, we are trying to establish new launch commit criteria. We can't do that. You don't do that the night before a launch. That's a predetermined set of constraints, and we can't do that. One of the comments that came, and this was by voice recognition, I believe it was from Mr. Hardy at Marshall Space Flight Center, it was, that he was appalled at that recommendation. However, he also said that he certainly wouldn't fly without Thiokol's concurrence.

Mr. ROGERS: He would not fly --

Mr. McDONALD: He would not fly without Thiokol's concurrence, even though he was appalled at that recommendation.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: At that point Morton Thiokol asked for a recess. Thirty minutes later Morton Thiokol came back with a recommendation to launch. Jerry Mason, senior vice president at Thiokol, told the panel why.

JERRY MASON, Vice President, Morton Thiokol: We believed that we had a margin, a substantial margin, of allowable erosion and still have that primary ring sealed properly. I concluded it was appropriate to talk -- to get a poll of the chief engineer and the chief program manager and Mr. Wiggins, who has a division responsibility, to see how they felt.

Mr. ROGERS: How about the others?

Mr. MASON: We only polled the management people.

Mr. ROGERS: Did you ever have an experience where all the engineers voted one way and management voted the other?

Mr.MASON: That wasn't the case here.

Mr. ROGERS: Well, what was the case here? It looks that way. It looks as if you said the managers you polled were unanimous and the engineers were opposed to the launch, were still apparently opposed to it.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: One of the engineers strongly opposed to the resuts of the poll that night was Roger Boisjoly, Morton Thiokol's top expert on the seals of booster rockets. His testimony left panel members stunned.

ROGER BOISJOLY, Morton Thiokol: There was never one positive pro-launch statement ever made by anybody. I grabbed the photos and I went up and discussed the photos once again and tried to make the point that it was my opinion from actual observations that temperature was indeed a discriminator and we should not ignore the physical evidence that we had observed. I also stopped when it was apparent that I couldn't get anybody to listen. I left the room feeling badly defeated, but I felt I really did all I could to stop the launch.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Next, Morton Thiokol's middle-management team came to the stand. Chairman Rogers wanted to know why Robert Lund had changed his position from the meeting when he spoke as an engineer to the meeting when he spoke as a manager.

Mr. ROGERS: How do you explain the fact that you seemed to change your mind when you changed your hat?

ROBERT LUND, Vice President, Morton Thiokol: We got ourselves in a thought process that we were trying to find some way to prove to them it wouldn't work and we were unable -o do that.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Through it all, astronaut Sally Ride had one key question for those who were making the decision to launch that night, why did the Challenger fly at all when it was known that damage to the O-rings could mean catastrophe? It is a question she will undoubtedly ask tomorrow when NASA officials are scheduled to appear before the commission. Key testimony is expected from middle-level NASA managers from the Huntsville operation, managers who took a beating today from those who said they felt pressured into making an unwise decision to launch the Challenger.

MacNEIL: Now for a view of what the Challenger investigation is doing to the space program, we turn to Ranon Lurie's cartoon.

[Lurie cartoon -- empaneled NASA officials push a launch button and are pulled into space behind the shuttle investigation.]

Finally, a clarification on last night's story about Eastern Airlines. Washington Post reporter Douglas Feaver said on this program that Continental Airlines had signed a contract with the Airline Pilots Association. Today Feaver said that in fact Continental and the union have reached an agreement on issues left over from the 1983 pilots-strike, such as severance pay for pilots who didn't return to work, but there is no new contract. Jim?

LEHRER: Again, the other major story this day was the final fall of President Marcos. Marcos stepped aside and Corazon Aquino took over as president of the Philippines. Marcos and his family went to a U.S. air base in the Philippines and then later to the island of Guam. The United States said he was welcome here, but most signs pointed toward his declining the invitation, at least for now. The U.S. extended immediate recognition to the new Aquino government. Marcos' departure triggered widespread celebrations in the Philippines which resulted in the sacking of the presidential palace and other violence. Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.