The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary, we hear how editors around the country view the check writing scandal in Congress. Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye reports on the new look in the LA police, and we update the continued ethnic slaughter in Yugoslavia. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: The Food & Drug Administration today issued its final ruling on silicone gel breast implants. FDA Commissioner David Kessler said women who want the implants for purely cosmetic reasons will be able to get them only if accepted in a controlled, clinical study, but breast cancer patients and other women needing the devices for reconstruction will be assured of getting them. Kessler told a Washington news conference the manufacturers of silicone gel implants will have to prove their safety before they can again be marketed to the general public.

DR. DAVID KESSLER, Commissioner, Food & Drug Administration: The list of unanswered questions is long. We do not know how long these devices will last. In the apt observation of one member of FDA's advisory board on breast implants, we know more about the life span of automobile tires than we do about the longevity of breast implants. We know that some of these implants will rupture, but we don't know how many of them will rupture. Furthermore, we're not sure of the chemical composition of the gel that leaks into the body once the shell ruptures. And we don't know whether there is any link between the implants and immune-related disorders and other systemic diseases.

MR. MacNeil: Kessler added, however, that women who are not experiencing problems with their implants need not have them removed. The American Society of Plastic & Reconstructive Surgeons welcomed today's FDA action. The organization's President, Dr. Norman Cole, said it signaled the return of science, logic, and compassion to the debate. But he said he was unhappy that the FDA was restricting access for purely cosmetic surgery. He also spoke in Washington.

DR. NORMAN COLE, American Society of Plastic Surgeons: We continue to be disappointed that the government has placed itself in the role of judging morality, or social correctness of a woman's reason for choosing breast implants. The needs of women who seek augmentation of their breasts are poorly understood by those who do not share this desire or whose priorities are different. As a result, most women who seek the surgery and who decide that saline implants are not acceptable are essentially being denied and deprived of the right to make this very personal choice.

MR. MacNeil: Saline breast implants remain on the market. FDA Commissioner Kessler said they do not appear to pose as many risks as the silicone implants, but they do not have the FDA's stamp of approval. A federal appeals court today struck down an anti- abortion law in the U.S. territory of Guam. The law would have made abortion a felony in Guam, except to save the life of a mother, or to avoid a grave risk to her health. The law was aimed at overturning the Supreme Court's 1973 Roe Vs. Wade decision legalizing abortion. The Appeals Court said Roe V. Wade is the law until the Supreme Court rules otherwise. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: The HouseEthics Committee today released the big list, the one of three hundred and three current and former House members who wrote at least one overdraft check at the now defunct House bank. A separate list of 22 worst offenders was released earlier this month. At the top of the list was California Democrat Ron Dellums, who wrote 851 overdrafts; then Minnesota Democrat Gerry Sikorski 697; Ohio Democrat Louis Stokes, who is chairman of the Ethics Committee, had 551. Among the House leadership Majority Leader Dick Gephardt had 28; Democratic Whip David Bonior 76; Republican Whip Newt Gingrich 22. House Speaker Tom Foley had two checks. Republican Leader Bob Michel none. Foley said today's release should put an end to the matter. He spoke to reporters outside the Capitol Building.

REP. THOMAS FOLEY, Speaker of the House: The names of those who were released today, again, have not violated any law, have not violated any rule of the House, are being disclosed in the interest of full disclosure, as ordered by the House. Again, the important thing I think that needs to be emphasized is that these were not bounced checks or bad checks or kited checks. They were overdrafted checks and, as such, they were following the practice of longstanding. I don't defend that practice, but it's important to note that the reporting in this matter has consistently misrepresented and inaccurately characterized the nature of these transactions.

MR. LEHRER: President Bush said today he wants to help Americans pay for further education and job training. He proposed a plan to offer every student a $25,000 line of credit. He said the borrowers would pay it back with future earnings. He spoke to students in Allentown, Pennsylvania.

PRES. BUSH: And I've said before if we want to compete in the 21st century, we've got to become a nation of students. And to do that, we've got to take a new approach to the old notions of student aid. Think of the working mother, balancing her responsibility for her family and her job against her own hopes for the future. She'd take one college course at a time, but she doesn't qualify right now for the grant or loan that would help pay tuition. Our lifetime education and trading account would help her get back into the classroom.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Bush's proposal resembles one by Democratic Presidential Candidate Bill Clinton. Clinton made this comment in a campaign speech in Philadelphia.

GOV. BILL CLINTON, Democratic Presidential Campaign: They have tried for 11 years to make it impossible for middle class folks to get any help to go to college. One year after he proposed a budget which said that nobody should get any Pel Grant money if they came from a family with an income over $10,000 a year, but just twelve days before the Pennsylvania primary, the President comes to Pennsylvania to promise universal access to college loans, a program that has been at the core of my Presidential campaign since the day I announced. Now, they say I'm slick? [laughter and applause]

MR. LEHRER: Also today, Clinton received the endorsement of the American Federation of Teachers. The union said Clinton understood the team work, strategy and resources needed to meet future education goals.

MR. MacNeil: Philadelphia's police chief, Willie Williams, was chosen today to head the Los Angeles Police Department. He replaces Daryl Gates, who resigned amid charges of brutality and racism in his department. Those charges followed the videotaped beating of a black motorist. Williams will be Los Angeles' first black police chief. He has run the Philadelphia Police Department since 1988 and has a reputation for promoting cooperation between citizens and police. At a Los Angeles news conference, he said he would work to suppress violent crime in the city and talked about other goals.

WILLIE WILLIAMS, Los Angeles Police Chief-Designate: The responsibility also includes the ability for me to work as hard as I can with each and every member of the Los Angeles Police Department, to lead them in a continuing process of making their job safer on the streets every day, to work as hard as I can to raise the level of morale, which has been hurt by the events of the past year. We have seen too many of these officers, these fine men and women of this department, painted with that broad brush of accusation because of the actions of a very, very few.

MR. MacNeil: We'll have more on the LA Police Department later in the program.

MR. LEHRER: In economic news today, the U.S. trade deficit fell sharply in February to its lowest level in almost nine years. It was down 43 percent from the previous month. The drop was due mainly to record export sales. The government also reported a drop in new claims for unemployment benefits. They fell 18,000 the first week of April. It was the second straight weekly decline. the Caterpillar Company said today it will take back all 12,600 union workers after a five-month strike. Earlier, the company had said it might not rehire up to 15 percent of the strikers. Today officials said jobs would be eliminated but through attrition and early retirement offers.

MR. MacNeil: The president of Afghanistan was forced out of power today. The fall of the Soviet-installed leader came as opposition rebel guerrillas closed in on the capital, Kabul. We have more from Norma Reese of Independent Television News.

NORMA REESE: President Najibullah had ruled Afghanistan for nearly six years, his dictatorship upheld by an elite fleet of KGB- trained Presidential guards. The head of the Secret Service is said to have committed suicide following his downfall. Najibullah, himself, is said to have fled the Presidential palace. One report says he's under arrest. Pushed into power by the Soviets, Najibullah's control over the country, his party, and his troops have become increasingly shaky. Four of his top generals, with the support of much of the army, are believed to have made a pact with the legendary Mujahadin commander Ahmad Shah Masud. Masud's rebels are in virtual control of much of Northeastern Afghanistan, with the apparent support of dissident loyalists. It was Masud's men who inflicted many of the casualties on the Soviet army during its occupation of Afghanistan. Their alliance with the generals and the ruling Watem Party could give Kabul its best chance of peace after 14 years of war.

MR. MacNeil: Libya began expelling diplomats today in response to United Nations sanctions. Only representatives from states that voted for the sanctions were told to leave. The sanctions took effect yesterday and include an embargo on arms and air traffic to and from the North African nation. They also call for the expulsion of most Libyan diplomats from U.N. member states. The sanctions are intended to pressure Libya to surrender suspects in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103.

MR. LEHRER: Cyrus Vance tried again today to make peace in the former nation of Yugoslavia. The former U.S. Secretary of State went to Bosnia-Herzegovina today on behalf of the United Nations. There have been bloody battles there since the United States and Europe recognized Bosnia's independence from Yugoslavia last week. Vance met with the head of the Serb-led federal army and representatives of the warring ethnic groups. He said he was optimistic all out war could be avoided. The fighting has left an estimated 160,000 people homeless. We'll have more on the story later in the program.

MR. MacNeil: U.S. General John Galvin will retire as NATO's top European commander in June, it was announced today. Galvin has served in the position since 1987. He presided over NATO forces through the end of the cold war and the establishment of ties with former Warsaw Pact enemies. Galvin will become a professor at West Point. That's it for our News Summary. Just ahead, checks and balances at the House bank, the shake up at LAPD, and Yugoslavia's blood bath. FOCUS - POLICE STORY

MR. MacNeil: First tonight we look at changes in the Los Angeles Police Department in the wake of the videotaped beating of Rodney King last year. Today Philadelphia Police Chief Willie Williams was picked to replace Chief Daryl Gates, whose resignation was one result of the King incident. The trial of four police officers involved will go to the jury within days. Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye examines what's happened in the Los Angeles Police Department over the past year.

MR. KAYE: The videotaped beating of Rodney King in March 1991 was a turning point for the Los Angeles Police Department. In the resulting criminal case, department practices and policy were as much on trial as the defendants. The defense presented witnesses in an attempt to show the officers' conduct were standard police procedure.

ATTORNEY: [during trial] Did you believe, based upon your training and experience, that that blow was within the training that you had received from the Los Angeles Police Department?

POLICE OFFICER: Yes, sir.

DARYL GATES: This is once again an aberration that is being rejected by this department --

MR. KAYE: From the beginning, Police Chief Daryl Gates contended the beating or Rodney King was uncharacteristic. But the case served as a lightning rod for long held grievances, particularly in the black community.

SPOKESMAN: [at group gathering] We need the police officers, but we need to say to them we will not allow them to do anything less than to protect and to serve us because we are citizens and taxpayers like everybody else!

MR. KAYE: Pressure on the chief to step down mounted. Civil rights groups also demanded police reform, such as greater civilian oversight and tougher discipline. But the writing was on the wall for Gates and for the LA Police Department when an independent commission began hearings and a thorough investigation of the police department. The commission was headed by former State Department Official Warren Christopher. Last July, the commission offered a blueprint for reform. It called for a major overhaul of the disciplinary process, improved training, better community relations, and a new chief of police more accountable to city hall. While a new police commission searched for a replacement for Daryl Gates, the chief promised he was serious about reform.

DARYL GATES, Police Chief: In spite of the fact that we've been defensive, we've gone forward and we have implemented or are in the process of implementing all of those that we have the power to implement. And so I think there has been significant change. Along with that, we have done a total evaluation, re-evaluation of our training.

MR. KAYE: New police recruits get an extra six weeks of instruction in cultural awareness.

POLICE OFFICER: I told you, you cannot ride my streets lookinglike a gangster.

MR. KAYE: There is also more community-based policing.

SGT. LARRY TATE: This is the way police work should be done, talk to people, stop, be out here. You can smell, hear, touch, you know -- everything is just so much more what it should be.

MR. KAYE: The LA Police Department says it would like to see more foot and bike patrols but is limited by budget cuts. The department is losing about 35 officers a month due to attrition. Still, Captain Paul Jefferson says it's essential for police to pay closer attention to community needs.

CAPT. PAUL JEFFERSON, Police Department: After the scrutiny we're under, the Christopher Commission, one of the things that became abundantly clear is that we at the police department, we're doing really a terrible job of listening to the community.

MR. KAYE: Jefferson is participating in another aspect of community-based policing.

SPOKESMAN: Thank you, Captain Jefferson. Give Captain Jefferson another round of applause, why don't you.

MR. KAYE: This was a recent meeting to elect members of a community council.

CURTIS MARTIN: I want to improve, help to improve our community. I want to work with the police department, as well, the police department, have them to work with us.

MR. KAYE: The council will meet regularly with representatives of the local police precinct.

MARY CRUTE: We feel that our officers put their lives at great risk for our sakes, but we also think that there should be some in- service on human relations that people would not be judged by the color of their skin or by the way they dress before learning about the content of their character.

MARK RIDLEY-THOMAS, Councilman: If you would be kind enough now to complete your balloting, we will be glad to collect them.

MR. KAYE: LA Councilman Mark Ridley-Thomas, a longtime police critic, is one of the organizers of the community council.

MARK RIDLEY-THOMAS: The notion of community-based policing as we have tried to define it is to have substantial community involvement.

MR. KAYE: And how will this prevent future Rodney Kings?

MARK RIDLEY-THOMAS: Well, the assumption is that with a higher level of police accountability that's informed by better police community relations, these kind of problems are prevented and, at minimum, assuaged.

MARK RIDLEY-THOMAS: [presenting council members] These are the first wave of representatives for the community-based policing council or basic car area, 12A53. Now, give them a big round of applause.

MR. KAYE: But some police critics find little reason for applause. They say not enough has been done to discipline the bad apples, those who have repeated instances of excessive force.

ZEV YAROSLAVSKY, Councilman: If Daryl Gates had focused more attention on accountability within his own department over the last several years, we wouldn't have been bleeding the taxpayers of Los Angeles dry.

MR. KAYE: LA City Councilman Zev Yaroslavsky points to the millions of dollars paid out annually by the city in lawsuits brought by people claiming to be victims of police abuse.

ZEV YAROSLAVSKY: Last Tuesday, in the Budget & Finance Committee which I chair, we recommended the settlement at the suggestion of our own city attorney of $1.7 million worth of cases, judgments and settlements, $1.75 million worth of cases, all of them excessive use of force cases involving our police officers. In not one of those cases -- and there were nine of them -- in not one of those cases was any of the police officers who was involved in those incidents that cost us 1.75 million, disciplined in any way. In fact, not even a reprimand was put in their file, in their personnel file. It's as though they did nothing wrong.

MR. KAYE: Gates' explanation is that all too often juries are predisposed against police officers.

DARYL GATES, Police Chief: I think the peril today to police officers is civil suits. I think that's the real peril. It's not the guns out there. It's not any of that. It's civil suits. And people who sit on juries today are killing effective policing in this city and I think perhaps elsewhere.

MR. KAYE: In the months following the Rodney King beating, complaints lodged against LA police rose steadily.

SPOKESMAN: I think one of the factors was that a lot of publicity came about after the Rodney King incident that made a lot of people aware of the system. And a lot of complaints came in that were for periods even before the incident actually occurred.

MR. KAYE: But critics such as the American Civil Liberties Union fault the police department's complaint system.

RAMONA RIPSTON, American Civil Liberties Union: We are here this morning to give you vivid examples of how one year later a reform that could have been done by the police department, itself, by Police Chief Daryl Gates, has not happened.

MR. KAYE: Recently, the ACLU released a study echoing a finding of the Christopher Commission, saying the police department is still unresponsive to citizen complaints.

ALAN PARACHINI, American Civil Liberties Union: More than a year after the Rodney King beating, the LAPD is still treating allegations of police misconduct as if the officers couldn't possibly have done something wrong and even if they did, the department doesn't want to hear about it. And if that isn't cause enough for alarm, our study finds that the department has installed a supposedly easily accessible citizen complaint toll free hotline. The problem is, for all intents and purposes, this number is unlisted.

DARYL GATES: In spite of what the ACLU says, an awful lot of people found their way to enter a complaint process, otherwise, we wouldn't have this increase in complaints. That's pure bunk that the ACLU puts out, in my judgment. They said we didn't know where the 800 number was. That may be true. We had no money to fund a public relations campaign to say, tell everybody, here's the 800 number. We provided that to the various desks. They should have had it. If they didn't have it, that's our fault. But we did an audit just before that. Our audit came out beautifully. ACLU's, as I would have expected, came out very poorly. I -- well, I won't say what I think about the ACLU.

MR. KAYE: It is rare for Chief Gates not to say just what's on his mind, but even as he prepares to step down, some community leaders are pushing a police reform ballot measure, using Gates as ammunition.

REV. EDGAR BOYD, Bethel A.M.E. Church: There's no change in attitude of arrogance and the attitude of disrespect for the quality of life, of those perpetrated by our own police chief, Daryl Gates.

MR. KAYE: The campaign is on in Los Angeles with passage of a June ballot measure that would incorporate changes recommended by the Christopher Commission. It would put a civilian on the police disciplinary panel called the Board of Rights. The proposition would also set term limits for the police chief and make that position accountable to city hall.

REV. CECIL MURRAY, First A.M.E. Church: We are not anti-police. Let that be made clear, because I am supporting and I do support a law enforcement, but I do not support the brutality that's been issued out against our community. It is time for reform, reform, and reform.

MR. KAYE: Police Commission President Stanley Sheinbaum, a former chair of the ACLU, agreed. He supports passage of the proposed charter amendment.

MR. KAYE: What would be the main change?

STANLEY SHEINBAUM, President, Police Commission: I think that the main change is that the chief, himself, be taken off the Civil Service protection, exempt, as we say.

MR. KAYE: That's also one of the more contentious aspects?

STANLEY SHEINBAUM: Absolutely.

MR. KAYE: Daryl Gates feels the measure will politicize the office of the chief of police and reduce the chief's independence, something he has enjoyed. So he's campaigning against it.

DARYL GATES: And what they want to do is really silence the chief of police. They don't like the fact that I speak out the way I do. It's politically incorrect to speak out the way I speak out.

MR. KAYE: Gates finds support among those more concerned with crime than reform of the police department. He raises the specter of corruption if the ballot measure passes.

DARYL GATES: The chief of police will right under the control of the mayor. And if you speak out against the mayor or against the city council, or if the mayor wants to fire you, he can fire you just like that. And that's all there is to it, folks. That's all there is to it. The chief is gone. And that's the system they have in the East.

STANLEY SHEINBAUM: The chief of Los Angeles is the only public service in government in the United States who has lifetime tenure, aside from the federal judiciary. Now, this enables the commission to make decisions about him, if he's totally incompetent or if there's something wrong about the way he's running the department, but there's a check on the commission. The mayor can change the commission's decision on that. The city council can change it. It's not unilateral, arbitrary, decision making.

MR. KAYE: As he comes to the end of a 14-year tenure as police chief, Daryl Gates has been placed in the peculiar position of implementing reforms that have been forced upon him. And although he has complained about the Christopher Commission's recommendations, he is now adopting many of the changes as his own.

DARYL GATES: We would have made all these changes, or most of them, whether we'd had a Christopher Commission or not. We are making, I think, major changes, major strides. This has given us incentive to do that. I would be the first to admit it.

MR. KAYE: But for some the changes are not major enough.

REV. CECIL MURRAY, First A.M.E. Church: And the brutality is still going on. Complaints are being made and not addressed.

MR. KAYE: Some police critics would like to see more resources devoted to investigating police uses of force, but that will likely cost money. So one of the next political questions looming for police reform advocates is: How much can a financially strapped city afford to spend to police its own police force? FOCUS - CHECKS AND BALANCES

MR. LEHRER: That congressional nightmare called the House bank scandal opened another run today. The names of 303 present and former members of the House were officially released by the House Ethics Committee. They are identified as those who wrote checks on their personal checking accounts without sufficient funds to cover them. Most of the names had already been made public and much of the heat has already been generated and received. It is that heat and the fallout about it over this affair that we want to measure tonight with our six regular newspaper contributors, Gerald Warren, editor of the San Diego Union, Lee Cullum of the Dallas Morning News, Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Constitution, Irwin Knoll of the Progressive Magazine in Madison, Wisconsin, Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune, and Ed Baumeister of the Trenton, New Jersey Times. Ed, House Speaker Foley said today that the release of the names means the matter is now closed. Is it closed in Trenton?

MR. BAUMEISTER: He should be so lucky. I had lunch today with the Chamber of Commerce of Mercer County, businessmen. And one of them said something very interesting. He said, you know, this is just the tip of the iceberg. And another one said, yeah, but we've seen the rest of the iceberg. It is just the tip. I mean, there's a lot of resentment and anger, real anger, among people that are not normally angry about the way the Congress has behaved. So it's not over.

MR. LEHRER: But is the anger specifically directed at this banking thing, or just Congress in general, or both?

MR. BAUMEISTER: Well, the banking thing I think primes the anger that's already there. It's a general anger. Everybody's feeling a pinch these days. Everybody's in some distress. When they see privilege being doled out that they can't get, they feel pretty bad about it. And most of the people I had lunch with today have been having rough times with banks lately. And for them to see Congress getting -- making its own special deal, really does anger them.

MR. LEHRER: Lee, how has this story been received in Dallas?

MS. CULLUM: Well, Jim, I think that Ed is right. I think in Dallas it's playing exactly the same. You know, banks are a very sore subject in Dallas. Our major banks failed. They were taken over by banks from elsewhere in the country. Hot checks are a symbol for very unfortunate behavior. So I would say that the Congress is not viewed favorably in Dallas at all.

MR. LEHRER: Cynthia, the word "anger" has been used. Why is there anger over this? What is the source of the anger in Atlanta, do you think?

MS. TUCKER: I think people are very, very angry about a government that they believe does not work on their behalf. And I think Ed hit on a point earlier when he said that many people are having a very hard economic time. And what this banking scandal seems to symbolize is a Congress that is very much out of touch with the way the rest of us have to live. All of us would like to have banking privileges like that, that we go to the bank, or we go to the grocery store or to Macy's, and we write a check for funds that we don't have in the bank and then it's somehow covered and we don't have to pay any hot check charges or anything like that. All of us would like to have that privilege. Most of us do not. So I think the anger here is focused at a Congress that people believe to be very much out of touch with the way the rest of us live. They seem to be unconcerned with our everyday problems. And they're not working on our behalf.

MR. LEHRER: Gerry Warren, the New York Times suggested in an editorial today and Speaker Foley did too that much of this anger may be misplaced and misdirected because of misinformation. In other words, the public may not really understand that when you say bounced checks, these checks never really were bounced, and they weren't hot checks under any definition of the law and no taxpayer funds were ever at risk. What's your reading of how well the people in San Diego understand what this thing is all about?

MR. WARREN: I think they understand it very well, Jim. We have one Congressman in San Diego who is saying just that, that none of hischecks ever bounced. But I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that they say, Speaker Foley and this Congressman, say they have had overdraft protection. Well, that's not overdraft protection the way the people see it. The people are angry about politicians who are so arrogant that they cannot bring themselves to tell the people the truth. And that's what's happened here. This is a problem. They could face it square on and say, we shouldn't have done this, the bank shouldn't have been operated this way, it's a mistake, let's fix it and go on about our business. But they're trying to cover it up. And that doesn't work these days.

MR. LEHRER: But Irwin Knoll, what's wrong with the 435 members of the House of Representatives getting together and agreeing to cover each other's overdrafts as a matter of convenience? Their checks went directly into these accounts. What's wrong with that?

MR. KNOLL: Well, it's not a monstrous crime. I don't think this is nearly as corrupt a thing as the savings & loan bailout, for example. But what's wrong with it is not that these people have stolen money. What's wrong with it is that it reinforces the widespread impression that people have that these people in the government in Washington lead privileged lives, that their not compelled to face the same realities that the rest of us have to. The rest of us have to balance our checkbooks. If we make a mistake or if we overdraw our accounts, we pay a price for it. And it undergirds the supposition that because the people in Congress don't have to live like the rest of us, they don't identify with us, they don't understand our needs, they don't do anything for us because they're okay. We're not. But they don't have to care.

MR. LEHRER: Clarence, is it your feeling that -- well, there's already been some experience in Chicago about an individual member of Congress being punished at the polls for this.

MR. PAGE: You might say two and you might say a member of the Senate too.

MR. LEHRER: You mean Dixon?

MR. PAGE: Yeah, Sen. Alan Dixon and Congressman Gus Savage and Congressman Charlie Hays. The one case that we think you can directly attribute to the House banking scandal is Charlie Hays on the South side of Chicago who about three days before the election, three or four days before the primary, was found, was reported to have written over 700 bad checks. And he had been considered to be such a shoe-in none of us in the media in Chicago had even bothered to poll his district. And it turned out, he was tossed out in a rather large upset.

MR. LEHRER: But going back to Irwin's point, was Hays's problem that he was perceived by the voters in his district as being crooked, or that he was perceived in some general way as a guy who was out of touch, or this was a symptom of it? Or is there any way to characterize it?

MR. PAGE: I think that, first of all, what everybody has said today is right. And there's remarkable agreement, isn't there, Jim?

MR. LEHRER: Yes.

MR. PAGE: All that we have to add is different angles as to the public anger. I think in the case of Chicago with folks there, where the economy has not been as bad off as New Jersey with Ed Baumeister or as Southern California, but, nevertheless, people are very frustrated over the lack of a connection between their problems and government. They certainly hear politicians talk a lot about health care, the deficit, converting over to a peacetime economy, et cetera, and educational problems. They see no action. They see government gridlock. And I think that when the New York Times editorializes, hey, what's the big deal, they're reflecting that inside-the-beltway attitude I've seen around here in Washington. When I go back to Illinois, people say, hey, that's not the point, it's not the point that there was no taxpayer money involved, or that these guys were covering each other's checks. The point is their arrogance. The point is the lack of a connection with the real world, this lack of even a fiscal responsibility, the symbolic value of this.

MR. LEHRER: A guy who can't get his checks to --

MR. PAGE: Sure.

MR. LEHRER: How in the world can he run the budget of the United States?

MR. PAGE: It's not news that people on Capitol Hill can't add and subtract. We know that already. The problem is that there's no action. There's no action on the part of Washington to deal with the big problems.

MR. LEHRER: Lee, is -- do you think there's going to be any specific fallout on incumbent members of Congress in Texas as a result of this?

MS. CULLUM: Jim, I think there will be very little. You know, the filing deadline in Texas occurred before the House check scandal hit, so there may be some but very little. I think a number of the incumbents are going to be home free because you can't beat somebody with nobody. I do think the candidacy of Ross Perot is getting a big boost from the whole dissatisfaction with Congress, as well as the dissatisfaction with both Presidential candidates.

MR. LEHRER: Make that connection. Why would Ross Perot be benefiting by a congressional scandal?

MS. CULLUM: Well, you know, Ross Perot is running against executive privilege and governmental privilege. He says he would have a small executive jet, instead of Air Force One. And I think that that can certainly be projected onto the Congress. He would not favor special privilege for the Congress either. So I think he seems to be talking about a different approach to government, an anti-privilege approach to government. I want to make it clear that George Bush still has a home in Texas, and Texas I think is still in the George Bush column. But, nonetheless, Perot is very strong and I think the congressional scandal -- and I think it can be called a scandal -- has helped him.

MR. LEHRER: Ed, is Ross Perot a living possibility in New Jersey?

MR. BAUMEISTER: I think he was in New Jersey the way he was -- well, maybe not in Texas, Texas being a special case -- but, you see, the thing is we get paid to follow the little filigree, the differences among the branches of government and the minutia of their actions. The people I had lunch with today, it's all government and the government ain't doing good stuff and they want to fix it and they're going to fix it the way they understand it in very, very large block gross terms. They're going to vote against. We have off-year elections. In 1991, we saw it in our state legislature. We had a Democratic House and assembly and a Democratic Senate. Now we have a Republican majority in both, a majority big enough to override the governor's veto. People are really, really angry and when asked to respond by voting, this is what they did in New Jersey last year, and I suspect they'll do the same this year.

MR. LEHRER: Gerry, what about -- how's Ross Perot doing in Southern California?

MR. WARREN: He's doing very well. He probably will get on the ballot in California and the polling that I've heard about in Orange County and also one in Northern California shows him taking away from both Bush and Clinton, but he's killing Clinton in those two areas.

MR. LEHRER: Why? Why is that?

MR. WARREN: Well, Clinton puts himself forward as an agent of change but people are beginning to mistrust that. Is he really an agent of change? And along comes Perot, who up to this point is definitely in the voters' minds an agent of change, someone who can bring about reform. And so they're swinging to him in California.

MR. LEHRER: How is Perot doing in the Wisconsin voters' mind, Irwin, or is it possible --

MR. KNOLL: Getting a lot of attention, a lot of interest, a lot of support, I would say even. I think the Perot candidacy is one of the more bizarre and irrational aspects in this bizarre and irrational election year. But I think he may, indeed, achieve something useful, and that is bring us to the point at long last of rearranging this two-party monopoly that I think has served us worse and worse, more and more badly in recent years.

MR. LEHRER: Cynthia, is the Atlanta Constitution taking Ross Perot seriously?

MS. TUCKER: We're beginning to take him seriously. People in Georgia have certainly expressed an interest in him. Every day we get a few phone calls from people asking how can they reach him, does he have an organization in Georgia, so, yes, we're certainly looking at him. I think he does reflect this voter anger that we have been talking about. We have been talking earlier about the New York Times column that ran today questioning voter outrage. I understand why voters are very angry. I think the anger is unfocused at the moment and unpredictable. As House Speaker Tom Foley failed to predict that people would be this angry about the House bank, I would not have predicted it either. I would have thought that they would have been much more angry about the S&L debacle or about BCCI. But people are -- should be angry about a government who has not been able to bring itself to work on their half, about politicians, as Ed said earlier, who can't bring themselves to tell the truth, and I think that that is why people are interested in Ross Perot. He at least represents an alternative to that.

MR. LEHRER: Clarence, the column that Cynthia's referring to was by William Safire and when he said, essentially, hey, wait a minute here, let's not let this thing of protest get out of hand. He said, we're a self-possessed nation going through a period of what he calls "indulgence of self-grumpiness."

MR. PAGE: We're grumpy all right. This nation is grumpy, but I think that he's right that this is not evidence that democracy doesn't work. I think the system is working. I saw a real sense of exuberance on the the part of Illinois people, for example, when they saw candidates, incumbents who had been viewed as immobile got tossed out because the voters did rise up. People's votes do make a difference. The sad thing is voter turnout is low everywhere, Jim. All these primaries, we're seeing black, white, rich, poor people are not turning out to vote. That indicates to me that people are not strongly in favor of any of these candidates. And our democratic system is telling us that yeah, well, the system may work to a point but it's not encouraging the kind of candidates that are turning on voters. That's why Ross Perot is popular right now. As long as he doesn't speak in specifics -- and he avoids specifics like the plague -- as long as he speaks in glorious, glowing generalities, he's a very attractive kind of guy, because he kind of embodies that protest sentiment out there. He's not going to win but he can be a spoiler.

MR. LEHRER: He's not going to win? You say that as a prediction?

MR. PAGE: Oh, absolutely not, but he can be a spoiler. I think Gerry Warren's right. I think there's evidence that he's hurting Bill Clinton more than George Bush. I think what we're seeing across the country now is really not Republican versus Democrat, but status quo versus change. And whoever embodies change the most is going to be the best challenger to George Bush.

MR. LEHRER: Lee, do you have any thoughts about Safire's self- grumpiness thesis?

MS. CULLUM: Well, I don't know how we can be self-grumpy, but we are feeling grumpy. And I think for pretty good reason. I think the country has got some serious problems. I think it's not unexpected, that people should be very, very concerned about them, and I think that Perot is speaking to that concern. Incidentally, I have heard him be rather specific on a local television program in Dallas about the economy. He said that he would bring specific industrial people to Washington, the top auto people, if we have any left, and he says we do, he would bring them to Washington, work on the problem, implement the program right away, before the times change. He would go to work on the microchip industry and so on, through all the troubled industries. I think he's going to grow in specificity and I think he's going to be a far more formidable contender than Clarence Page seems to believe.

MR. LEHRER: Gerry Warren, do you agree with Clarence's other thesis though that what's happened in this banking thing -- he's already seen it in Chicago or in Illinois -- that the system is working? I mean, they're throwing some bums out, to coin a phrase. And that's a good thing.

MR. WARREN: I absolutely agree the system is working and it's working very well. We have a case in San Diego. A Congressman, a veteran Congressman announced yesterday that he's not going to run. He's getting out of the race, suspending his race for the Congress, because of the cumulative effect of the check scandal and also some coziness with S&L people in the past. The irony here is that he is the only one of our Congressmen who seems to understand what's going on and who has apologized to the people and has told the people, I do understand your outrage, I understand why we as a Congress haven't pleased you, and it still wasn't good enough to keep him in the race.

MR. LEHRER: What about that point, Ed, that maybe some non-bums are going to go out with the bums?

MR. BAUMEISTER: I think that's true. I think it's a dangerous place to be right now, the U.S. Congress. This is real anger and we're all saying it, but I'm really shocked by it. I've never seen it before. They're going to vote against what's there now and I don't think they're going to be as discriminating as they might be. There are a lot of good people, Tim Wirth of Colorado, for instance, who are dropping out, and I think others are going to be thrown out.

MR. LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Cynthia, that there is going to be a price for a lot of people to pay at the polls?

MS. TUCKER: Yes, I do, and I think that is quite unfortunate. I think Ed was right, that voters will not be as discriminate as they should be. While I understand their anger about the House banking scandal, I don't think that that is the issue that they should be most concerned about. I would like to see them check their Congressmen's and Congresswomen's behavior on other issues, on BCCI, on the savings & loan. But I'm not sure that that will happen. I think that some good members of Congress will also be hurt by this.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Well, look, thank you all six for being with us tonight. Good to see you all again. Thanks a lot. UPDATE - COMING APART

MR. MacNeil: Yugoslavia, or what's left of it, is next tonight. That country's civil war, which has claimed for than 10,000 dead, is now being fought around the borders of the republic of Bosnia- Herzegovina. The United States and the European Community have recognized Bosnian independence but Serbian forces are trying to gain control of as much of Bosnian territory as possible. The fighting resembles that which took place in Croatia earlier when it broke away from Yugoslavia. The population of Bosnia-Herzegovina is a mixture of Croatian Serbs and Muslims, the principal ethnic group. Correspondent Liz Donnelly of Independent Television News is in the Bosnian capital, Sarajevo, and filed a series of reports on this week's developments.

MS. DONNELLY: Throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, there's evidence of Yugoslav army activity intensifying. Heavily armed MiG 21's can be seen flying South from where bombing's been reported. Independent observers say the federal army's actively supporting Serbian guerrillas in their tactic of driving non-Serbian people out of their villages, just as they did in Croatia. Tens of thousands of people have already abandoned their homes, terrorized by fighting around them, or the fear that it would spread. Here in Tutsler, close to some of the heaviest battles in Northeast Bosnia, the sports stadium's been turned into a refugee processing center. Unlike Serb and Croat refugees, these Bosnian Muslims have nowhere to run to and like Adviet Sivitch and her 10-month-old baby, Iyda, most arrived with just the clothes they were wearing. "Look at what the Serbs have done to us," she cried. "They're killing people on the streets. It's the Serbs, the Cechniks. If we hadn't had to, we wouldn't have come here with our children." Some of those here are distraught, after having become separated from their relatives. The Degayetas left their small children in the care of neighbors. Now they've no idea where they are or how to contact them. Food and help has come flooding in from Muslims, Serbs, and Croats alike, topped out by larger contributions from the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. And volunteers are registering to take refugees into their homes. Some families with just two or three rooms of their own are taking in twenty-five people at a time. They may have escaped to the relative safety of Tutsler, but even so, in the past few days, locals have been preparing to defend themselves from being attacked. So the worry now for the refugees is that they'll have to flee once again. For days now, Serb irregular forces have been fighting in Northeast Bosnia, but the area is sealed off by Serb roadblocks and EC monitors have been prevented from entering so the picture's far from clear. What the Serb irregular forces seem to be trying to do is to take control of towns and villages close to the border and seize the main routes of communication, a strategy similar to the one they used in Croatia. The fighting's taking place in area where the population's ethnically mixed. In towns where the Serbs are in the majority, they're simply taking over. The Serbian flag now flies above Shakovichi, and guerrilla forces run this mainly Serbian town. They've declared themselves part of a separate Serbian republic in Bosnia, independent from the authorities in the capital, Sarajevo.

COMMANDANT VEKO, Serbian Militia Leader: [Speaking through Interpreter] Of course we have connections with Belgrade. Who else would help us? Who else would send us food? This is a very poor area. Someone has to support us.

MS. DONNELLY: Until last Friday, these men were civilians. But they donned uniforms after being mobilized by paramilitary leaders from Belgrade. The four Muslim police officers and a team of fourteen are now said to be on holiday, awaiting transfer to other duties. And the Muslim headmaster of the secondary school has, it was explained, been replaced by a Serbian guerrilla. But to show that Muslims are welcome to stay here, they insisted on producing one to support their case. Flanked by Serbian fighters, he had little choice.

MAN ON STREET: [Speaking through Interpreter] It's fine here. Everything's all right. I have no problems at all. The war isn't affecting the religious minorities here.

MS. DONNELLY: At this point, his enthusiasm seemed to falter so the commandant intervened.

COMMANDANT: [Speaking through Interpreter] I would just like to point out that Muslims are a minority here but we will still guarantee their security so long as they respect our authority and don't shoot at us.

MS. DONNELLY: Serbs with 30 percent of the population are claiming half of Bosnia-Herzegovina and as each day passes, their authority seems to be gaining a firmer grip.

MR. MacNeil: One group bearing the brunt of the civil war and now trying to resist Serbian encroachment are the Muslims of Bosnia. Yesterday Correspondent Donnelly filed this report on their situation.

MS. DONNELLY: Hyat Television, the local Muslim independent news station in Sarajevo, plays a vital role in the propaganda role, regarded by journalists here as being as crucial as the fighting on the ground. Since the conflict spread here to Bosnia- Herzegovina, confusion and rumor have caused widespread panic. And one of the main tasks of those who work here is to keep up the morale of the Muslim population. This TV station has become a center for Muslim resistance and one news team's been taken hostage by militant Serbs demanding the release of two of their fighters. Even though, the besieged Muslims see their best hope as being to persuade people that all ethnic groups can still live together.

BISERA TURKOVIC, Chief Editor, Hayat TV: The main point in making people not to be panic is to show that they are friends, each of other, and that those nationalities are protecting each other. And I think that we have few TV spots that are Serbian protected by Muslims or Muslims have been protected by Serbs, by local Serbs.

MS. DONNELLY: The military and the political leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina have set up a joint headquarters in the center of Sarajevo. On Monday this week, they received a boost when Col. Vabiakurich resigned from the Yugoslav federal army, along with a number of his Muslim colleagues. He believes that the army's intent on carving up his country and supports the usual allegation that it's fighting side by side with the irregular Serbian guerrillas. Col. Karic, now responsible for defending Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbian fighters, says the first priority has been to establish a defense force.

COLONEL VEHBIJA KARIC, Bosnian Territorial Defense Force: [Speaking through Interpreter] For several months now we've been training recruits in areas where Muslims and Croats form a majority. People are taught military tactics and are also given weapons training. Of course, this is all done illegally. We couldn't organized professional military training ourselves, so we are relying on the skills of those trained by the federal army.

MS. DONNELLY: Until today, Muslims have had their own militia known as the Green Berets, but these fighters, along with Serband Croat paramilitary groups, were given until this evening to sign up for a new joint territorial guard. Today they were in evidence on the streets of Sarajevo, identified by their new insignia. Whilst no one expects Serb guerrillas to comply with the order, the authorities here hope to organize their defense for the mainly Muslim and Croat coalition. Everyone's aware of the mass killings which took place in the Second World War and many now fear it will happen again.

COL. KARIC: [Speaking through Interpreter] This makes people believe they must defend themselves, that they don't have any choice but to defend themselves. Fifty years ago the partisans managed to defeat a much stronger enemy, Hitler's Germany, which occupied our country in 1941. We were less experienced then and less prepared.

MS. DONNELLY: Even though the military balance favors the Serbs, the better prepared the Muslims and Croats become, the more it fuels Serb anxiety. One major fear voiced by militant Serbs seeking to justify their position is that an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina could become a fundamentalist Islamic state. Muslims are the main ethnic group here, making up 44 percent of the population, but they vehemently deny that they have any such ambition. Though some help is coming from Turkey, the reality is that Muslims here are cut off from the rest of the Islamic world so have little choice but to look to Europe for their future. Their hope is that pressure coming from the international community will control Serb territorial ambitions.

MR. MacNeil: Yesterday, the United States issued its strongest denunciation yet of Serbian activities and today the State Department said the U.S. would fly relief supplies to Bosnia. The United States has been backing the peacemaking efforts of the United Nations Special Envoy Cyrus Vance, who organized a cease- fire earlier between Serbia and Croatia. Today, the former U.S. Sec. of State turned his attention to Bosnia.

MS. DONNELLY: The United Nations Special Envoy, Cyrus Vance, arrived in Sarajevo from Belgrade for face-to-face talks with all the warring parties, his visit intended as a strong message from the five members of the Security Council that the fighting here should stop.

CYRUS VANCE, UN Special Envoy: The only solution that can be found is not to be found at the end of a barrel of a gun but in supporting the negotiations that I think have been conducted very well under --

MS. DONNELLY: The cease-fire negotiated by EC Envoy Jose Cutilero earlier this week was broken in a matter of hours. But amidst concern that the conflict in Sarajevo is set to intensify, Mr. Vance stressed the EC framework showed the most promising basis for progress. But the beleaguered Bosnia government believes its best hope of survival is an extension of the United Nations mandate so that U.N. troops can intervene directly here. They'd hoped Mr. Vance would discuss the deployment of extra forces, but he dismissed this out of hand.

MR. VANCE: The answer is no. The situation will remain as it currently is. There will be the observers which we previously have discussed but there will be no blue helmets coming into Bosnia- Herzegovina.

MS. DONNELLY: And the Bosnian president made clear his disappointment.

ALIJA IZATBEGOVIC, President of Bosnia: Yes, we would like that we can see blue helmets here but unfortunately, it's connected with the problem --

MS. DONNELLY: So underlying its refusal to get directly involved in Bosnia-Herzegovina is the United Nations concern about the cost. It's already cutting back its budget in Croatia. Originally the UN based its administrative headquarters here in Sarajevo in the belief that it would be convenient for its operations in Croatia and safe. Now though the anxiety is that the war will spread to Sarajevo. This could force staff here to leave and risk the credibility of all UN operations.

MR. MacNeil: Vance continued his diplomatic mission in Serbia, where he met with the Serbian military command. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Thursday, the Food & Drug Administration approved silicone gel breast implants for reconstructive surgery, but made them difficult to get for purely cosmetic reasons. The final list of House check bouncers was released. It included 303 current or former members. And the U.S. trade deficit fell in February to its lowest level in almost nine years. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night with a look at a congressional maverick's tough fight for re-election, plus Gergen & Shields. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.